If you've seen the rumors (or got your hands on a copy of the Chaos Space Marine codex), then you've heard about Lash of Submission. And according to most of the forums out there, the sky is falling.
My prediction is that Lash of Submission will prove to be one of GW's most annoying and abusive powers. Since Siren has vanished, it is now the crowning jewel in the powergaming crown (right next to 3 Falcons). I predict that the "Lash Army" (Copyright 2007, Bell of Lost Souls) will replace the spot Big Bugs hold on the list of abusive tournament armies. Expect to see them on the top tables as early as Baltimore.
This article is going to discuss the finer details of using Lash of Submission and tomorrow's post is going to talk about how to minimize the effects of Lash when you face it.
WHAT IS LASH?
Last of Submission is a new psychic powers available to Chaos Sorcerers and Daemon Princes dedicated to Slaanesh. It's a particularly nasty power allowing the psyker to choose any non-vehicle unit that he can see within 24". If he passes a Psychic test, he can move that unit 2D6". After the move, the unit must take a Pinning test.
HOW TO ABUSE LASH
Those of us with a history of using the Callidus' A Word in Your Ear ability can instantly see the utility in being able to use a similar power once or twice per turn for the entire game.
Here's a few that you can expect to see:
1. Conga Line: re-arrange your opponent's unit so that models with special weapons are in front. Line them up so that each model is 2" from the next in line (toughest up front and weakest in the back). Then use weapons with short ranges (e.g., rapid-firing weapons) to pick them off. Since you can only take casualties from those in range, it's pretty easy to kill characters (e.g., heavy weapons, power fist sergeants, standard bearers, apothecaries, commissars, etc.).
Dirty Trick #1: Sniping Independent Characters is very easy with Lash. Since you can use the power on any "non-vehicle enemy unit visible" Independent Characters lose their protection against targeting. That means you can tell that pesky Librarian or Farseer to walk in front of his lines. Once he's the closest model, the rest of your army can target him!
Dirty Trick #2: Nothing prevents you from using Lash on the same unit more than once. With an average of 14" (and a maximum of 24"), this is a great way to get a unit where you really want it.
2. Group Hug: Arrange your opponent's unit into a tight circle. This allows you to completely cover the entire unit with blast weapons. Combining this group hug with Defilers, Vindicators, Blastmasters and Plasma Cannons id devastating. This is going to make expensive units like Terminators, Bikes and Assault Marines a lot less common. This is a fantastic counter to new threats like Deathwing Assault and Death Company.
Dirty Trick #3: Push a heavy weapons unit more than 6" into area terrain. Since the Lash move ignores difficult terrain and can cause pinning, this can take out heavy weapon teams for several turns as they move back into position.
3. MY Objective: Lash will allow you to move an enemy unit out of scoring range. With two Lashes you can clear two objectives. And since according to GW's terrible FAQ "transported models are not physically on the table", they can't "do anything" including holding objectives (forcing Mech armies to disembark). This makes the Lash Army the most effective army in the game for managing mission objetives.
Dirty Trick #4: Move a unit that is falling back within 6" of one of your units so they can't regroup.
4. Dangerous Terrain, anyone?: Bikes and Jump Packs are both vulnerable to Dangerous Terrain. By moving them into dangerous terrain, you force them to test at the end of the move (followed by a pinning test). Bikes are forced to take an additional Dangerous Terrain check when they move out (Jump Packs don't have to make this check).
Dirty Trick #5: Move a unit of Bikes into Dangerous Terrain. Now use Lash a second time to move them into Dangerous Terrain again. That forces two DT checks. Now on the player's turn, they have to take a third Dangerous Terrain test to leave the terrain. Nasty.
Dirty Trick #6: Move enemy units out of the area of beneficial effect (or move the beneficial effect away from the units). Eliminate the effectiveness of a Resurrection Orb, Book of St Lucius, Regimental Standard, etc. This is a great way to keep Necrons from standing back up (at least until you can Lash his Lord).
5. Feed me Seymour: Move an enemy unit into assault range. Combining this with fast or infiltrating units, you can easily get first turn assaults. Take a tooled up close combat unit (infiltrating Chosen, Winged Daemon, nasty unit in a Landraider, etc.) and move the closest enemy unit 2D6" towards them (or 4D6" if you have two Lashes).
Dirty Trick #7: Since you can use Lash on ANY non-vehicle enemy unit visible, you can use the power to push models out of close combat. Since the units aren't engaged at the beginning of the Assault phase, you can shoot and assault them. This is a much nastier version of Hit & Run.
As you can see, Lash is a pretty amazing psychic power. The only real weakness is the relatively short range. Tomorrow, I'm going to talk about how to deal with Lash as an opponent. So check back! If you are using Lash (or have had it used against you), please post a comment!
Next Time: Dealing with Lash!...
74 comments:
from what im seeing, i cant (and when i say cant i mean CAN) believe that this power made it through GW "playtesting".
once again, the broken psychic power of the army book goes to slanesh. i can see this thing blowing up way to fast.
I agree that the power is a little broken, but nothing like Siren. In the early draft of the Chaos Codex, there was no limit to the range (that power was broken!).
The shorter range helps balance it because at 24" you have a chance to take out my Sorcerer.
However, it is going to change the game. Librarians (which I rarely use anymore) are going to be a necessity.
This army totally screws Dark Angels and Blood Angels who have no real choice for a L10 Psychic Hood. You'll never see my Blood Angels at another major tournament.
If they had made Chaos Sorcerers LD9, it would have been much less broken.
Forget BA's with a LD9 hood, what about all the armies without any way to stop a psycher?
This really hurts assault armies that have to get in close. Long range shootie armies wont feel the pain as much.
I'm still baffled that this got past playtesters who used it on an objective based mission. Talk about forcing a draw in the worst case scenario.
I feel like my Mech Grenadier force just got a leg up finally. Other mech forces should be ok too. You can also use the non-skimmer transports to block LOS from other units that want to use the lash on you and focus just on the one you want to drive by. That is one way that BA and DA are still ok because their rhinos are cheaper.
nice article!
"This makes the Lash Army the most effective army in the game for managing mission objetives."
however, i do disagree here! an army full of skimmers, etc. definately stands a chance against the lash list, even on a last-ditch last-turn effort.
no better than 3 falcons, nidzilla, DA's with bladestorm in a waveserpent, ELDRAD, etc, etc...
a good tactician should be able to find around the power. i just want to know how much it costs now...
if i played chaos i'd rock this. not b/c its the best thing you can do, but b/c it can do the best things depending on who's using it. i have a ton of success with eldrad and the callidus.
i must admit, im biting my nails waitin to see it all in action.
Two words that never should be used in the same sentence are "GW" and "playtesting."
Jervis Johnson and a couple of his buds brainstorming over a few beers in his basement is what passess for GW's playtesting. It's what has passed for GW's playtesting over the last 20 years.
And they still haven't figured out that their half thought out rule sets will get the full "how can we break this" treatment as soon as they hit the shelves.
With the internet, even before that.
Frank
Forget the Sorcerer mkerr, You're going to see 2 Winged Demon Princes with Lashes everywhere.
And Eldrad will be even more prevalent to counter it.
i got 50 bukcs saying that Jervis's son is making an emperor's children army...
I'm not so sure about the Daemon Prince over the Sorcerer. The Sorceror has the advantage of being an IC, so he'll be slippery as an eel if used right.
Any DP who steps out in front of an army with a decent amount of firepower will get to use Lash exactly 1 time.
Unfortunetly most of GW's "play testing" happens after the Codex is released.
The UK Grand Tournoment Cercit includes three heats of 150 different players that are only allowed to play in one heat a year. The top 50 players are invited to play in a fourth GT free at the end of the season.
All 150 army lists are gathered up from each tournoment and examined to find out what the most powerful armies are.
IMO this is why Chaos got a new dex before others like Orks and Necrons. GW was tired of seeing Iron Warriors template spam armies and thats why DA and BA had their Assult Cannon's points jacked up.
~kings
*vomicasm*
Good breakdown Mkerr, but I'm looking forward to a nice indepth counter to this tripe. I'm with studderingdave that it's amazing this made it into the book, but at least it's LOS and 24" now! My Chaos lads will NOT be rocking the Lash, mostly because it feels like cheating and also because my lads don't need a game-bending crutch, even if my 'nettes are gone >:P
- Salvage
Great article, but I have to disagree on a couple of points.
Your opponent cannot force your units into different formations to allow him to template them or snipe weapons. He has to move every model in the unit 2D6", which means they end up in exactly the same position.
Have to disagree with you there, Slaaneshi Slave. All movement, unless specified otherwise, is discretionary.
Had it said something like "moves 2D6" in the direction chosen by the Chaos player" you might have something.
Compare it to Fleet (move an additional D6" in the Shooting phase"), which is discretionary.
Then compare it to Hit & Run ("move 3D6" in a straight line in any direction") which is compulsory.
It's pretty clear that there are no restrictions implied in the description of Lash. The fact that "up to" is missing isn't enough to make the total distance moved compulsory.
Haahahahaha - I just found a model to use as a sorcerer, and thinking about the powers available I need to change my post from "NOT rocking Lash" to "POSSIBLY rocking Lash."
Given the power level of my army I think I need all the game-bending crutches I can get ;D
- Salvage
"Any DP who steps out in front of an army with a decent amount of firepower will get to use Lash exactly 1 time."
Good point, but it will take a lot of firepower to reliably put a DP down (like 5 or 6 Lascannons). Run 2, plus a Greater Daemon... well that is a huge distraction. Run a Defiler and a Vindicator in addition, and most armies won't have enough heavy firepower.
Wait, do you have to keep the models in coherency?
Can you scatter them, each in a different direction? If that is the case, it could take 2 turns just to get back to where you were. That effectively neutralizes that unit for half of the game.
Bulwark: I'd say you definitely must keep them in coherency - because you move them and general rules for movement require a unit to maintain coherency. Now THAT would be really broken - imagine scattering a Devastator squad this way - 3 turns of not shooting (moving back into coherency) ...
All forms of movement require maintaining coherency, so that's out. Good try though!
I swear, I started painting my second Libby BEFORE I read the Codex...
Frank
I'm saying up front, out loud...as I don't care for EC or Slaaneshi armies, I'll never use the lash. I'm not going to come up with some cockeyed excuse to use the uber-power, regardless.
I know many will, but hopefully most won't stoop to that because THIS (the Lash) is pretty doggone broken.
I like the new codex for the balancing, but don't care for the removal of identity: I don't think it was necissary to un-man the CSM, just tone em down a bit.
That's my 2c.
my deathguard will fly as true as i can maintain them when the codex hits.
no slaanesh brokeness in my army.
You ought to check out Fabius Bile and his Rod of Torment. Instakill.
Not a power weapon though, jeff. Blissgiver is better.
I recently played a game with the new 'dex, and even forgetting about 2 squads of terminators the Lash princes were making it easy. Link to batrep is below, for the curious.
http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.php?showtopic=115718
Thank the Emperor for Shield of Faith (in sisters armies)!
More dirty tricks:
The Lash can be used at ANY TIME during your shooting phase. Which means you can shoot a unit within 24" (AP3 bolters? Sonic Blasters? Plasma Guns?) and THEN move it backwards, denying your enemy return fire. They might not even be able to get back into range for 2 turns.
Also you can pass units between shooting squads: firing with one unit, and then moving the enemy squad towards another squad on the other side of the board.
@qwertywraith: Lash is very fun to use in a game. I think bigred was most surprised when I used lash TWICE on the same unit. This is a great way to move enemy units into rapid-fire range.
Has anyone else played with (or played against) Lash yet? We've had 3 games here in Austin and strangely enough the Lash army has only drawn or lost.
MCs are too easily seen, and you'll get shot to hell and back unless you hide them. with only a 3+/5+, you won't last too long against an army with a good heavy weapon presense.
But, you can still gear up 2 sorcerers with jump packs, squeeze em into some raptor units. (or just leave em floating about)
much harder to get to.
I'll put together a lash army for my fellow austinites soon enough; I've never been able to grow too much facial hair, so I have to get my beard a different way. :)
As I showed in the link above, two lash princes nearly single-handedly destroyed a shooty marine list. That was with over 20% of the army being forgotten about.
DPs are not vulnerable if you assualt with them. 80% of winning of an assualt-based is being able to get them in assualt range. Once this happens most assualt armies will walk all over non-assualt armies. Lash makes this much easier. Combine this with the ability to snipe out models that could be dangerous to the DPs in CC and even if you only use Lash once in a game, it is easily worth it's points.
Unchanged Lash is not just ungodly powerful, it will completely change the whole metagame for tourneys. Slogging lists will basically become unusable, even the traditional SAFH marine and guard lists. With these lists out of the way, armies that do well with mechanization (Tau, Eldar) will do even better. I think this is the thing I dislike most about Lash, is that it will make top tier lists even more cookie-cutter by makeing other options uncompetative.
[quote] Has anyone else played with (or played against) Lash yet? We've had 3 games here in Austin and strangely enough the Lash army has only drawn or lost. [/quote]
I think the greatest weakness of the Lash will prove to be the advance publicity it is getting. If armies are able to tool up against it, say by either taking Libbys or Farseers or by going mechanized, it will greatly diminish the impact of the Lash.
I've played against the Lash now a few times and it made me feel so glad I had taken Mephiston it was unbelivable.
Psychic hood was compulsory against a list with a vindicator, 2 defiliers and the usual blastmaster happiness you expect from E.C.
Even with it - twas a struggle to avoid that much template happiness.
Mephiston is a great way to handle Lash. Your opponent isn't going to want to get within Lash range of him!
Thanks for all the comments and let me know what you think about Part 2!
A lash of submission still follows the rules of shooting like all psychic powers, right? So targeting an IC would not be possible with the lash, unless it was the closest model, right?
I suppose the same question applies to gift of chaos. I see it as unclear. Anyone else have a thought?
The Lash moves units, not individual models within a unit so the position of the models within the unit would remain exactly the way they started. This is not discretionary, since you only get to pick one direction not multiple directions as a normal player moving his own units could.
The Lash does follow the rules for shooting as stated in the Core rulebook. Meaning you must have LOS and cannot target IC's.
I am not sure about the dangerous terrain tests for bikes, For some reason I thought you only took those tests during your turn.
How can you move a unit if you don't move the individual models within a unit? That doesn't make sense.
@anon: Psychic powers use the usual rules for shooting unless the power specifies it's own rules. Since Lash tell us how to pick a target, we use those rules instead.
Is the IC an enemy unit? Yes. Is it a non-vehicle? Yes. Is it within 24"? Yes. Then it can be affected by Lash.
@anon2: Units are moved by moving models. There is no type of movement in the game where the model's relative position remains exactly the same. With large units this would be almost impossible.
What happens if you can't keep the position the same? What happens if I roll a futher distance than I can move? Are the models that can't be moved destroyed? Does the power not work?
As for your other comment, you are incorrect. The Lash description defines how to "pick" a target. Targets are selected if they are visible (not necessarily the same as within Line of Sight) and are within 24". ICs gain no particular protection against being picked as a target.
Dirty trick #1 is not a legal use of Lash of Submission, assuming your IC is attached to a squad.
1. The lash states "unit" so an IC attatched to a squad counts a a single unit and the whole unit must be moved.
2. You CAN rearrange the IC to be in front. . . however he is still attatched to the squad and therefore cannot be targeted individually during the shooting phase as he is part of a unit. An IC NOT attatched to a squad obviously has no protection against this tactic however.
. . . and you are still able to use the same kind of "range sniping" technique as discussed elswhere though.
Dirty Trick #7 is illegal
1. The power stats that it is used in the shooting phase instead of using another range weapon. This clearly indicates that lash is a shooting attack and units is CC cannot be targeted by a shooting attack.
2. In addition, according to RAW for lash, units cannot be moved within 1" of an enemy model. Units in close combat w/ enemy models are already within 1" of an enemy model and therefore cannot be moved.
You cannot use the lash to move a squad out of close combat.
Nuff sed.
@anon: It's hard to argue with such a well presented case, but I'll give it a shot.
A unit in close combat can be "picked" by the power (assuming it is an enemy non-vehicle unit that is visible to the Sorcerer and within 24"). Lash doesn't specifiy an unengaged unit (unlike some other psychic powers).
If the psychic test is successful the "target is moved 2D6" by the Chaos player". It also tells us the victims may not be moved off the table, into impassible terrain or within 1" of enemy models."
Nothing in that statement would prevent a model that starts in base contact from moving away from the enemy they are engaged with.
As soon as the models are no longer in base contact, they are not engaged (or locked) and may move as long as none of the restrictions listed in Lash are broken.
Nuff sed.
I have a feeling they are going to have to publish an FAQ on lash pretty quickly to answer the glaring questions:
1) It says 2d6", not more, not less. Does every model have to move this exact distance?
2) Can you re-arrange them as you want, or do they march in formation, so that you can't use it to cherry pick or bunch up?
3) Can you lash units in CC?
4) Can you target IC's with lash, or was it intended to follow the normal shooting rules?
5) Are you GW guys mentally retarded for putting this in a codex and not making it cost 200 points?
Also, my fear is that this makes already broken armies (mech tau and eldar) even more broken, because now they are the logical counters to this nonsense.
Hey, long time reader, first poster etc.
While this isnt on LoS, it is about ridiculous chaos shenanigans! I heard that Bikers with Mark of Nurgle will have T6. Is this true? I hope not :(
Mike
Wow, playing against Lash sounds about as exciting as masturbating with a cheese grater... o_O
@Anonymous: I'm sure they'll FAQ it. They put something out pretty quickly for Blood Angels, so we'll see what they say.
I think most of this is just panic on the players part. I've tested Lash and it's not as bad as everyone thinks. The 24" range makes it much less effective.
I don't see the glaring questions you see when you read the power.
1. Lots of things don't say "up to". For example, Fleet, Massacre and Jetpack moves don't say "up to", but that's the way we play it. None one freaked out when someone doesn't move exactly their dice roll when they take a Massacre move.
2. Again, no movement power has ever required a unit to move in a way to keep their position exactly the same. The concept of formation doesn't exist in 40k. Why would they add it here? Keep in mind that the Callidus has been able to use a power almost exactly like this for years.
3. It's pretty clear how the Sorcerer picks a target for Lash. Pick a visible enemy non-vehicle within 24". Pretty clear to me. Is the enemy IC in close combat visible and whin 24"? Then I'll pick him.
4. If it follows the shooting rules they wouldn't have to tell us to pick an enemy, would they? Normal shooting rules don't allow you to pick friendly targets.
5. Try it out. It's only scary the first time. I've actually abandoned my Lash army. I don't think it's tough enough for competition.
@Mike: Welcome to the fun comment section!
You can get T 4(6) Bikes with the new Codex, but they are very expensive and can still be taken out with S8 weapons. It's not as bad as it sounds.
@Anonymous: As exciting as that sounds, playing against Lash isn't too bad. Just like any new army, once you understand the way it works it's not so hard to counter.
@mkerr
Nothing in the rules says I can't take your lash character, throw it on the floor and hit it repeatedly with a sledgehammer either.
Just because something isn't expressly prohibited in the rule, it does NOT mean you can do it.
@anon: Agreed. 40K is a permissive rules system. That's precisely why I refrain from "the rules don't say you can't" arguments.
My positions are all backed up with rules quotes. My position on Lash is, I feel, the most reasonable interpretation. I don't care which way it goes.
Perhaps if you gave me something more to work with, I could help you better understand my position.
Units Involved in CC block line of sight, therefore they can not be targeted. range sniping is debatable. (is this an atrillary style moves such and such a distance or a fleet of foot that will have to be FAQ'ed. hopefully with tag line that says "must move in such a way that they retain same formation."). Try this and you take sportmanship penalties instnatly.
As far as moving bikes and jumppacks into dificult (thus dangerous terrain) I would assume it works the same as consolodation or massacre result. no tests taken until the bikes leave. The bikes are not moving into the terrain, they are Being moved.
you agree me with me on thsoe two points and I'll play your lash army, other-wise you don't have a game, and we all know how much fun that is.
Anotehr note
With the coming of Apocalypse... Make your opponent's troops all jump into a vortex template.
@anon:
1. Close combats block line of sight THROUGH them (just like vehicles).
If they blocked line of sight TO them, then you couldn't target a Landraider.
Obviously, I can see the close combat (I just can't see through it).
2. Lash players (like Siren players before) probably aren't too worried about sportsmanship scores.
3. The "relative position" thing isn't going to stick. It just causes too many problems. What if I can't maintain relative position? Does the power not work? Are the models lost? Do they move as far as they can? It just causes too many special cases.
This is a lot like A Word In Your Ear, which has been used to group up enemy models for years. No one has complained about that one.
4.Re-read the bike rules. Bikes take Dangerous Terrain tests when "entering or moving through difficult terrain" (BGB, p53).
5. There's no rules difference between "moving" and "being moved".
@Anon2: Lash + Vortex Grenades is going to be great!
I played a few games with the new 'dex the other day. I didn't go for the dirty tricks (but i will against more unscrupulous opponents), but i found Lash to be quite good.
First game was against a Mech Tau army, so it was fairly useless for most of the game until his Devilfish were immobilised/penetrated. He bailed out his fire warriors on the other side of the devilfish (as you do). I then used the lash to move them in front of the devilfish and into assault range of my basic CSM.
The second game was against 'nids, with 3 carnifexes and a tyrant and broodguard. Here Lash really shined. His shooty 'fex was lashed into coming within rapid fire range of my plasma guns, and his broodlord and one of his close combat fexes were pushed back, allowing me to the time to deal with his genestealers first and then concentrate on the big 'uns.
Oh, and an initiative 6 force weapon is AWESOME. if only I could roll a psychic test :P
lash+vortex isnt going to be as powerful as you think. vortex moves at the start of the turn, while lash activates in shooting.
you can push them towards the template, but due to scatters, you cant really have it exactly the way you'd want. :P
i have an army list with double lash. one prince, one sorc. so far, 8 wins, 1 loss. its fun to win, but each setup is the same. opponents don't have fun and no one wants to play you after.
so far, i dont think lash is too bad. there are multiple ways around it. maybe you and your army will have to change tactics or buy a new box set or something?
the final point? wh40k is a game. games are played for fun. if you want to ride the tourney to the top, then go hard. you'll have no friends or gaming groups to play with outside of tourneys (with that list) anyway.
Now that the codex is out, you obviously now know you CANNOT target a unit in Closecombat.
It is a "Shooting Attack" just it has no Str or AP therefore it cannot hit a close combat.
@Anonymous: Read the power more carefully, it's clearly not a shooting attack.
It is used in the shooting phase and it is used in the place of shooting another weapon (like most psychic powers that also aren't shooting), but that doesn't mean it's a shooting attack.
Target priority? Rolling to hit? Spotting distance? Does the rest of the unit have to target the same unit? Is it an assault, rapid-fire or heavy attack?
If a power has the rules for selecting a target listed in the power (as this one clearly does), you use those rules. You don't take those rules and try to mish-mash them into the normal shooting rules.
The rules tell me that I can select any non-vehicle enemy unit that's visible and within 24". It doesn't say that it can't be an Independent Character, it doesn't say that it can't be in close combat, and it doesn't say that it has to be a "valid shooting target".
As it stands, and nothing has changed this fact since the codex was released, you can use this power against a non-vehicle, enemy unit that's in close combat -- as long as the unit is visible and within 24".
Unfortunately they have used the rather ambiguous wording "used instead of another ranged weapon". The another implies it being a weapon, otherwise they could have stated "instead of a ranged weapon".
But it forces Dangerous Terrain Tests. Don't really have made up my mind if you should be able to move the IC out from a unit. The BRB actually states that the IC van only leave or join the unit during movement, but you try to force the IC out in the shooting phase. I wouldn't allow that. Use your power in the movement phase if you want to disengage the IC from the unit or target the whole unit and rearrange it with the IC in front and try the "sniping-trick". :-)
But the BRB states about IC's and targetting them inside units "IC may not NORMALLY be picked out" but this is one of the cases where you can actually pick them out. But since it happens in the wrong phase the chaosplayer can't disengage them from the unit.
Damn. Lucky me that none of the Chaosplayers at my club have used (or abused more like it) the Lash yet. As Nid-player the Lash can be really boring to play against. Of course I can make a armylist specific to counter a lash army (A Psychic Choir with a Shadow in the warp) but that's boring.
@sodcactus: I agree that the use of the word "another" creates an argument that Lash should be treated as a ranged weapon.
I think the counter to that case (e.g., the fact that the powers targeting rules are very clearly stated in the power) is stronger.
@mkerr
But I guess that the other thing I stated killed your Dirty Trick #1 since you can't move the IC independently out of the unit as they can only do that in the movement phase. Or do you have a counter to that? :-)
Ouch, last Tournament my Tyranid assault swarm was owned by an army with 2 Lash-Princes and 3 Kyborg-Cults.
Move them into baseto base and then blast away with plasma cannons, that really sucked...
@sodcactus: My Dirty Trick #1 assumes that the IC isn't attached to a unit. In my experience, most ICs don't start the game attached (unless there's pie-plate risk) to benefit from the protection afforced to ICs.
But that said, it's still relatively easy to snipe attached ICs using Lash.
Reposition the unit so that the IC is in front using the Conga Line tactic. Then position another unit (like a Predator, Attack Bike or Speeder) so that the only model it has LOS to is the IC.
Hmm...
These tacticas are very useful and interesting reads, but it does get boring seeing people argue so much! lol
Think you've done a good job myself mkerr. Especially as you have also looked at the response to the lash.
As for my comment on the power...it's pretty scary when it works well. However you could always fail the psychic test, or end up rolling double 1 on the 2D6. Oh dear, the unit i hope to move 12" has only appeared to of moved 2"...now that unit i was intending on using has got to find a better target. But hey, thats the trouble with dice!!
Now, personally...and with some experience to back it up, the Chaos power Gift of Chaos seems to me to be much handier and scarier. Never forget the look on a friends face when his nice expensive Chaplain in Terminator Armour got turned into a FREE Spawn theat then proceeded to rampage through the rest of the squad.
I've seen people try to avoid having they're models turned into Spawn as though it were an actual plague!!
Here's a thought though...winged DP with the lash that moves a unit (preferablly low toughness and no combat ability) towards a sorcerer mounted on a slanneshi deamonic steed (12" assault) with Gift of Chaos...which then proceeds to assault and turn the unit into Spawn!! Wuh ha ha ha!!! :-)
Sorry that was long, but just got into the flow of things!!
I think the Lash is certainly powerful but I don't think it is broken. My record with it is 2 wins, 1 draw and 1 loss. The loss was againt mech Eldar and all I had left at the end of the game was one Chaos Marine. Personally I think it makes games more fun and interesting, as you have to use the Lash as a combo if you want to actually kill units.
I'm not going to uses Lashes every time I play Chaos, but it is a very characterful option for Slaanesh. I just wish Tzeentch had some more interseting utility powers, which you would think makes sense for that faction.
Just for the record:
First:
Lash of Submission cannot pull units out of combat. In order for a unit to be engaged, at least one of its constituent models must be in base-to-base contact with an enemy model.
Further, the power may not be used to move a victim within 1" of an enemy model.
Any model which is in base-to-base contact with an enemy model cannot move at all without moving within 1" of an enemy model. Thus, the Lash cannot move such a model. Without moving all such models, a unit cannot be moved out of combat. Thus the Lash cannot move units out of combat.
Second, all psychic powers, whether they contain descriptions of their own targeting rules or not, are subject to the normal rules for shooting unless specified otherwise. Regardless of whatever else the Lash's rules might state, they [i]don't[/i] state that the Lash may target Independant Characters. Thus, it may not.
All in all, I think the tactica is spot on. The power is really good, and definitely abusable. It did include two particular suggested abuses which relied on inaccurate readings of those two rules, though, and I figured I'd point that out.
@Anon: Thanks for the comment, but I don't agree that my interpretation of those two rules is in error.
1. I can't use Lash to move a unit within 1" of an enemy unit. That's not the same thing as "models within 1" of an enemy unit cannot be moved".
As long as my movement doesn't take me within 1" of an enemy unit I can move them. Since I'm moving the unit AWAY from the enemy, this restriction doesn't apply.
If your interpretation was correct, then you could never move away from a vehicle that tank shocked your unit (i.e., unless assaulting you can't move within 1" of an enemy unit").
2. You are also incorrect with your second assumption. The rulebook says "unless specified otherwise, psychic abilities are subject to the usual shooting rules".
Lash has it's own rules for targeting. You follow the rules outlined in the Lash descrition instead of the usual shooting rules.
3. Lash says "pick any non-vehicle enemy unit visible to the psyker and within 24". Does an Independent Character fail to meet that targeting criteria? If not, then he can be affected by Lash.
Is Mkerr your username over on the Bolter and Chainsword as well, oh poster-whose-post-is-directly-above-this-one?
If so, you're probably familiar (or could fairly easily become so) with my various positions on the use of the Lash from having read my B&C posts, made under the user-name Cale.
Suffice to say that I still think you are wrong.
If you move a model which is within one inch of an enemy model, that model is moving within an inch of an enemy model.
The rule doesn't say that it must end its movement more than an inch away from enemy models, nor that it must not move to within an inch of enemy models, it says that it must not move within an inch of enemy models.
The phrases "move within an inch," and "move to within an inch," are not identical in meaning. The latter would support your interpretation. The former does not. Unfortunately for you, the former is what actually appears in the rules.
Consider: during the movement phase, you may not move through a gap between two enemy models if your movement would bring you within an inch of either of those models--even if your eventual stopping point is not within an inch of either.
Similarly, when tank-shocked (which happens in the movement phase) models must move so that they are not within an inch of the tank-shocking tank. If they did not, they would violate the rule which states that they may not come within an inch of enemy models during the movement phase. The problem you suggest does not actually matter if you simply follow the rules throughout the entire process of the tank shock, and not just try to apply them afterwards.
Similarly, whilc the Independant Character is non-vehicle enemy model within line of sight and 24", it is still something which cannot be targeted. Simply, it is not sufficient simply to meet the targeting criteria listed in the power's description, but also to meet every other targeting criteria which apply.
The rules for psychic powers specifically state that, when using a psychic power, all the normal rules for shooting attacks apply--unless the rules for the power specifically state otherwise.
The rules for the lash give a set of targeting rules which must be followed, but they do not tell you that you can ignore all the normal targeting rules from the core rules. Therefor, you cannot.
Simply including a set of targeting rules does not dictate that the normal targeting rules may be ignored. There is no rational which supports that conclusion.
@Anonymous: Yup, same mkerr.
It says the model may not move within an inch, which is different than "may not move if within an inch".
Again, you pick a literal interpretation of a rule without considering the consequences.
If your interpretation was correct, a model that moved within 1" of an enemy unit (say, assaulting a vehicle without a WS or a Monolith landing in the midst of a unit) neither model could ever move again.
Show me a psychic power that specifically states that the shooting rules are ignored.
You are dissecting the rules, word by word, without considering the context or the impact of your interpretation. You are trying to prove a point as opposed to figuring out the most likely interpretation.
@Cale: Please stick to the topic and if you have any questions or comments, I'd love to hear them.
However, I've addressed these issues and have no interest in arguing with you here. If you want to perform some thread necromancy on one of the other forums, enjoy.
No trolling please.
@Cale: Again, as long as you make accusations of lying I will continue to delete your comments.
If you read the above comments, you'll notice that many (if not most) of them have opinions that clash with mine. I think that open debate is important to coming to the most likely truth of an issue.
But when you accuse me or anyone else of being intentionally deceptive or cheating, then you've crossed a line between a debate on the issue and a personal attack.
So unless you want me to continue to delete your comments (which I can do all day), then please refrain from accusations and personal attacks.
@Cale: To save you some time on your next comment, please follow the below steps:
1. Is your comment about something other than Lash or the Lash Tactica article? (e.g., several paragraphs protesting a comment deletion).
2. Does your comment have any inflamtory or accusatory language (e.g., phrases like "lying" and "dishonesty" are good indications)?
If you answer "yes" to either of those questions, your comment is likely to get deleted.
This isn't a public forum or a soapbox for anyone but the owners of the site. And we'll moderate this site in any manner we see fit. If you feel that you have been treated unfairly, then that's unfortunate - but ultimately it's your problem.
Now if you have anything new to contribute to the discussion on Lash, I'd love to hear it. But if you continue to post comments in the manner of your last one, I will continue to delete them.
Lash is pretty mean, yes. If you have no psychic defense it's going to hurt you, but things like runes of warding and psychic hood are pretty good at taming it.
In my opinion it is one of the only ways that makes the new chaos dex truly competitive. Let's face it, new chaos doesn't have near as many ways to customize/tool out your army.
It does hose a lot of armies, but it's only barely enough to beat big bugs, and mech eldar is still going to run circles around it inside their skimmers.
I prefer to combine it with Thousand Sons to drag people out of cover so those AP3 bolters can do some serious damage, or to keep other peoples' assault troopers away from my close quarters inept rubric marines
The FAQ on GW's web site pretty well clarifies the "moving away from a model you are within 1" of rule" for vehicles:
"In its next Movement phase a mobile vehicle may move freely as long as it has enough space to physically move away without moving enemy models it is in contact with and it does not come within 1” of other enemies, as normal". I don't know that it necessarily clarifies whether lash can target units in CC, but I think it pretty well clarifies the move within 1" of an enemy rule.
The CSM FAQ on the GW website clears up all these issues: no, you cannot move models out of coherency; no, you cannot target models in combat.
i know that the conversation is probably finished, but i just had my first game against a sorceror with lash of submission and it moved my unit off the table, is it legal to do that?
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