So just a quick rundown for those who haven't heard already:
Marine Codex: September
Space Wolves: December
2009
Imperial Guard
Planetstrike
The marine codex is said to be huge, clocking in at nearly 140 pages. And the Space Wolves are coming hot on their heels just in time for the holidays!
Those 2 releases push IG and Planetstrike (along with that stubborn plastic thunderhawk rumor) into early to mid 2009.
~Wow, thats Wolves out of nowhere, and very fitting for the snowy holiday season!
46 comments:
As a die-hard Wolves player I am happy but also very surprised. Not sure that the SW are the most "in need" army. As it has been said, two Marine codex's within a couple months doesn't help the anti-marine attitudes of most players. Damn it GW, stop making it harder for us!
well they sure are taking their sweet wolftime... better late than never. i cringe at all the conversions and paint touchups i'm probably going to have to do
I can confirm that along with the new SM codex there will be a plastic Land Raider Crusader that can also be built as a new type of LR not seen before. Also there will be new plastic scout bikers and veteran assault marines.
They also push Dark Eldar into the "huh, who? I dunno, maybe someday" timeframe. Le sigh.
...kinda makes you wonder just what all is in that 140-page monster?
Kris: WOW! I bet you must be shocked. Totally wasn't obvious from day one. :D
Crusherjoe: Lots of pictures of the the GW team playing games. Like in the Apocalypse book. It'll be the best codex ever.
YESSS!!!
Marines sell and they supply GW with dough. I am sad about the Dark Eldar, but not surprised. This is how things went with the ork codex. Rumors can and went and then when the Codex came it was amazing - let's hope the DE codex does the same.
Space Wolves do make sense. All the other Marine Codex's are stand alone at this point except SW and with an update Marine codex the SW will be so far out of date that they couldn't possibly be playable.
I'm interested to see what they do with the son's of Russ.
With 140 pages I am HOPING that the TRAITS (and non-codex chapters!) will be surviving the push into 5th edition...
Well at 140 pages you'd hope they'd have some sort of army customisability.
I pray that they keep traits for marines and doctrines for guard (for someone who has a grenadier/stormtrooper army). Also as I have lots of scouts with snipers (more scouts than normal marines!) I hope that they have some provision for 10th company armies.
I still wonder how big the changes for the 5th edition are going to be in general and how much this will affect the Marines.
I've been away from "playing" (never had more than a handfull of minis painted) 40K since the days of the 2nd edition and stopped following the development of the hobby well before the 4th edition. Now I got re-infected with the 40K virus but even the folks from GW tell me to wait for the new Edition and the new SM Codex...
September... that's a whole lot of time to kill :p
Good thing, that a friend recently started with Warhammer Fantasy and I got drawn into it as well, but I doubt that painting the BFSP dwarves will keep me busy that long ;)
When are Dark Eldar getting their long-awaited revamp?
Dark Eldar? Who are they?
On a more serious note, I really want this to be true. However, with SW rumours at the moment being more regular than rumours about a market crash, I'll believe it when I see it.
I just went back through the archived Rumors on the BoLS page and I can't find the release date for the 5th Edition boxed set.
Is there one yet?
Thanks.
-Tom
140 pages? Maybe there are sections/rules for codex chapters other than Ultramarines...
I hope that the White Scars get good coverage this time. They are one of the few really unique codex chapters, in my opinion.
Some things that could be filler, are sample army list and more pictures.
Buuut, If they are including SM variant army lists, why would the wolves be getting a new codex
Because Space Wolves have always had a Codex.
137 pages of "fluff."
2 pages of "painted models."
1 page of "army-list"
Isn't that the new style? Oh, and Phil Kelly did say that Dark Eldar are in the process of reworking. So it should be in the next year or two, for hopes.
You think you have it harsh ? Nobody here even remembered to mention Inquisition.
GW. Please please please please please please please leave my guard doctrines alone! I'll even tolerate your constant price rises without complaining for a year, not one bad comment, just leave me my precious precious doctrines!
Quite frankly I love the current guard codex so much I'd happily step back and let every other codex through first, in a very gentlemanly fashion. "IQ, you're a young whipper-snapper, play on through. DE, fancy seeing you here, well age before beauty... Marine player, AGAIN?!? Well if you really want yet another go, who am I to get in your way. Take two turns if you like." :oP
Jes shot down rumors of the plastic Thunderhawk at Conflict Scotland on Sunday morning.
"Not currently being planned."
Neither is the Eldar "crotch rocket" Jetbike.
What was discussed was "Planetary Empires"... Mighty Empires tiles for 40k... hope they change the name.
This is why we can't have nice things.
THere are to be 2 new types of Veterans - combatty and shotty. Combat ones are the current, and new shooting vets will beout. There's the "link-tank", a cross between the Land Raider and Predator, a Scout Transport and a few new plastic frames.
Unfortrunately, Space Wolves are out in mid-late 2009, confirmed by GW managers
If Wolves are in mid-late '09 when's the IG? >.<
"Unfortrunately, Space Wolves are out in mid-late 2009, confirmed by GW managers"
I'll believe Brimstone at Warseer before I'll believe anyone at GW, when it comes to a rumored release.
He says 1st QTR 2009.
You know Joe Cool, there is a grain of truth to what you say. I've known mkerr and bigred for a couple of years now, and their predictions and rumor collections are ALWAYS more accurate than anything I hear from a 'GW' source, aside from direct interviews.
So, down to the meat of what I want to say: New marine codex. I can't speak for all gaming clubs obviously, but down here in the Austin and central Texas area, we have seen a HUGE decrease in the amount of space marine armies. In our 16 man 40k tournament this past weekend, we had 2 ultramarine armies, and that was it. I wouldn't mind seeing more marines (especially boys in blue) back in the tournament circle - that means my plasma gunners don't just melt themselves for nothing. If a new codex will get more armies out there, and back into my playing area, that's fine with me. I'd much rather shoot at marines than the new orks or a good eldar player any day.
As to the content of the SM and possible lengthy IG codecies.... Look at the newest codecies. Flip open your ork list, for example, if you've got that. Essentially, out of the 50-some-odd page book, the first 47 pages are literally fluff, and explanation of key terms. I think the ork book literally has like 4-5 pages of actual stats and stuff. So, aptly called, the new marine codex will probably have 5ish pages of stats, and 135 pages of fluff, rules definitions, pictures and things like that.
But why do you complain? I mean, you come to BoLS, you read battle reports, you hear tactics, you look at cool conversions and nicely painted minis. That's essentially what you get in your new fluffy codex. What, you actually think they'd give you 140 pages of rules? That's absurd! To even think they'd give one army the 50 pages of a normal codex, completely rules is grossly naive. The 'ruleset' for 40k, outside of special engagements is only 84 pages long. So don't even whine about only have x many pages of rules and stats. Also, you get cool stuff to look at on the crapper, which is a plus if you don't have a laptop and can't take BoLS with you to the porcelain throne.
On a side note, people should read ALL entries on a comment log before they post shitty comments. Sorry for the long windedness.
Jhagadurn, great post I concur wholeheartedly!
Interesting that the scout bikers are coming back in plastic, after they have been dropped from both the DA and the BA codexes. Are they dropped from the BT codex as well? I only looked at it once, years ago.
I'm not sure about veteran assault marines becoming a standard thing either. I suppose that the BA have enough unique stuff with the honor guard, death company, furioso and furioso death company dreadnoughts, baal predators and assault marines as troops but I assumed that the VAS were unique to them. It will be interesting to see if that is not the case. Maybe enough to push my Iron Ravens back to regular marine rules from the BA set.
Not saying the updates aren't necessary but....
I just got home from Adepticon. Brought my Grey Knights for the team tourney and the 1850 pt Championship.
In the team tourney, I was one of only 5 other players (that I could find) that included any GKs at all.
In the 1850s, I was one of only two Daemonhunters gamers, and the only one with more than a single termie squad of GKs. (There were maybe 3 other armies including any GKs at all.) The other DH gamer had a fantastically converted radical army.
My army got lots of compliments and had pics taken of it. But almost to a gamer, those who came by were some combination of bemused, shocked, surprised, and/or outright derisive of my army choice.
I can't blame them. We all agreed the Inquisition models -- especially the GKTs and PAGKs -- are still some of the best models Citadel ever made. But the army just doesn't work well in a competitive setting. And the lack of support for the codex -- which still shows assault cannons as 3 shots-no rending, doesn't have machine spirits for the Land Raiders, nor Repair for Rhinos, etc., etc., etc. -- sure doesn't inspire confidence.
In a relatively recent Jervis Johnson Standard Bearer in White Dwarf, he promised that every existing codex army would continue to be supported indefinitely. I'd like to believe him, but obviously the Inquisition is the ugly red-headed stepchild GW would prefer to ignore.
If any army deserves some love, it's the Daemonhunters. Even the DE, whose codex is admittedly older (and who has some of the *worst* models ever), gets actual attention, is still mentioned in the fluff and international campaigns, and can actually be exceedingly strong and competitive.
Sorry for the rant, but it gets old hearing about Marine players who can't stand getting a new update, or who can't wait for the new update, when there are at least some of us who are made to feel like complete fools for appreciating an army that nobody else appears to care about, but which has an undeniably heavy influence on the game's overall fluff and character.
Any news when the new Squat codex will be out? At least the redheaded stepchild is in the photo album. The Squats got removed from the home by Child Protective Services.
I played with Mr. Damon and His Grey Knights in the Team tourney at a depticon, and I agree with his comments whole-heartedly. Keep sporting them despite the lack of support Damon, they rock.
As to the length of the Marine codex, well, the Chaos one comes in at 105 pages. That's a mere 35 more pages, in which they must discuss (ideally) some form of trait or alternate-army-build mechanism, probably a couple pages each to all of the other first founding legions so people can play with those (and of course, make all the Chaos players mad), oodles of special characters, and tons of fluff to show exactly why Marines are teh pawnzor.
Anyone know about planetstrike?
I'm sure they'll leave the doctrines alone: perhaps with more of them. I can't imagine them going backwards to pre-doctrine days.
You know though, I'm thinking in the new IG codex, (assuming it makes it out), they'll probably do some heavy changing.
I know there have been a lot of rumors going around about IG infantry getting ass-cheap, but I don't think that's going to happen. You don't pay for the guardsman's stat line like you do an orc, you pay for the amount of guns in his unit, which is essentially the same thing as what you pay for with orcs. The only things that may get cheaper are stormtroopers, chimeras, and I could see things like hull mounted weapons on vehicles coming free, and maybe for leman russes, free sponsons.
The other big thing I could see coming for IG is the removal of platoons. I think in 5th edition, platoons will probably be incompatible with some kind of objective, scoring unit, or moral rules. Just a hunch... I also think platoon rules, while fun and fluffy, are a bit too confusing in terms of "what's a unit". My opinion, is that in the next IG book, they'll probably do something like space wolves are now, where for each 750 points or something you have to have an HQ. It'd keep the command squads, just make troop choices easier.
As far as doctrines, I could see them being payed as an army bonus, like an appoc. formation, instead of by the squad like they are now. And I do hope as well that they stay in the book..
Anybody else got any ideas on IG, or Inq.?
@ Jhagadurn
I'd complain because the layout of the books has returned to 2nd ed. 40k, with multiple duplications pushing the page count (and consequently the cost) upwards.
The early 3rd ed 40k codices, while admittedly a little slim, made the right move in having one entry per unit, with a little fluff and the relevant army list entry in one place. Having to flip back and forth between "fluff and rules entry" and "army list entry" is tiresome and irritating (and hard on the book!).
I'm all for fluff (I don't back collect the White Dwarf and obselete rules sets for nothing), but let's get a layout that functions well. Fluff in a narrative paragraphed format, and the army list in a condensed and easy to use format. Maybe a special rules page. A final stats and weapons summary page. And let's keep it consistent between the books!! A little planning in the early stages could have meant that all codices had an identical layout and format so that if you knew one, you knew them all.
140 pages is great, if it's well laid out and organized. Otherwise, it's more pages to sift through to get to what I need.
From what I have heard, you get to pick a special character, and he brings the chapter traits and disadvantages with him.
So you buy character commander x and you get certain traits. So there may be extra special character choices.
There was also talk of attaching the traits to the force commander like wargear, so you pick a set from a list. Making it more likely you will get a commander and not a chaplain.
My money is on them changing the traits, as they were just too open to abuse.
I've always thought they should make reference to a weapon (e.g. "Spess Marhrinz are armed with Bolters") and leave the stats for that bolter for the main rules book. That way you don't end up with the orphaned codex syndrome you see with Grey Knights. An assault cannon is an assault cannon is an assault cannon because the rules for it are found only on page xyz of the Big Book.
This would also cut down on "I own the codex not the rules" players who are sort of a pet peeve of mine.
To start off i'll say i play marines, and have a lot of them to boot.
But i still like the idea of marines getting more loving, as they need it.
Hear me out, lol. Their codex is wrong, broken, cheesy, whatever you want to call it.
Including 4 tournaments i went undefeated with my Marine list for over a year. None of the specific Chapter codices have a chance against a Vanilla marine player and half a brain.
The problem is Marines are too flexible, and their weapons are too cheap. A BS4, 3+ save marine will do a lot better wielding a plasma gun than a BS3, 5+ guardsman will, but yet both pay 10 points for that gun.
The new codices are rectifying this and making weapons more expensive to compensate with them being fired from mini-tanks.
Also, the sheer amount of models one can take in a current marine list is staggering. In a 1700 point standard tournament list I can easily get 100 marines with heavy weapons and special weapons in all the tac squads.
That's just scary.
Oh and assault cannons are being slightly nerfed with 5th ed. so they won't be as bad.
Finally, the plastic thunderhawk rumours. They may be persistent rumours but rumours only, as the model itself would not be smart at all for GW to make.
It would only be viable for Marine players and Chaos Marine players, thus seriously limiting how many people can buy one. Secondly it will be expensive (likely in the $250-300 CDN/USD range) so all those kids who convinced mommy and daddy to buy them a shiny Baneblade will be S.O.L. when they ask for a Thunderhawk.
All in all, it would be nice, but its so far from being a sensible business idea, that it makes it next impossible to come out.
Tired of listening to people bitching about outgoing SM codex. It was very balanced, adding small changes in points and unit options plus the traits system made for a world of possiblities that flared the imagination. 3rd edit SM was horribly boring and was conveniently stepped over for the chapter power houses. Pete haines showed genius in that any of trait advantages required imagation and foretought to translate into game results. What good is furious charge if u never time your charges to hit? The advantages usually where a 20% mark up on basic troop or merely changed 1 unit types army slot to make it themed. The major disadvantages crippled most power gamer strategies. The current trend of one trick pony SM lists is dishearting as now SM army are becoming even more predicable. Jump pack Death company BA plus some other models to bulk thing out. Raven-Death dark angels, what a surprise. True, the current standard codex list WITHOUT traits can and regular is stone cold brutal with volumes of firepower, cc abiltily and moblity. (I like to think my army manages all 3) But as always marines can be easliy out 2/3 to one by any other list other than 1 consisting completely of MC or armour. Point is even now codex SM are at their best in a decade they still can get kicked around the place by any other army out there. The complaints that they are an army of elites in regular joes universe are daft as they ARE AN ARMY OF ELITES. Most marine armys no between 40-65 models. Every loss is painful and marine armyies are easy to grind down(only 40 models in current list, I panic at the sight of DE, darklances bring pain!!!). So please if your getting hammered by marine on a regular basis please either accept on an even field they`re better players than u or quit sobbing for 15 mins and figure out how to kick they`re asses!!! U don`t hear me crying about how an ork boy now hase 2 A and FC as standard for 6pts.Just means my heavy bolters get dusted off!Best hopes for new edit, big shoes to fill.
@ Keith, I agree with you, what was great about the SM codex was it gave you huge amount of Narrative choices.
I know coming from chaos a big part of the complaint is that we've had a lot of our options removed (and lets face it, the legions are REALLY different) but the marines still operate under a trait system. It hurts as an EC player (no more daemonettes, sonic terminators, sonic lords etc. etc.) so I seriously hope you get to keep them. If someones bothered to put together an iron hands army they should get to play iron hands, it's as simple as that. The traits weren't that bad compared to a lot of normal armies, e.g., eldar, all deathwing dark angels.
Oh well, at lest I can take a slaanesh sorceror with a lash and 2 squads of khorne berzerkers. Hmm, strange, no one wants to play me....
@keith "The major disadvantages crippled most power gamer strategies."
I think this single sentance deflates your entire argument. I have yet to see a power gamer crippled by not being able to take allies.
As a player who regularly beats marine players, I can tell you that a marine list is much harder to take on than most others out there. Their jack of all trades, master of most approach to combat leaves them without an achillies heel.
Even if you do have a 2/3 to 1 disadvante to an ork army, that 3+ save of your more than makes up for it. And with BS 4 you will hit just as many times with fewer shots.
No other army enjoys the wide variety of options that make them as tough with an all-comers list. being able to rely on that 3+ save allows you to make much less tactical decisions and survive. It really is a crutch army.
Not taking allies is only a minor disadvantage in the rules and I agree it`s the most regularly abused. I take death before dishonour so it is a genuine disadvantage that ties in with my fluff and doesn`t cut out my beloved librarians.
My point is if you take 1 advantage, u take 1 minor disadvantage. If u take 2 advantages, u take 1 major and sometimes 1minor as well. So the further u diverge the more you get spanked for it.
The SW / DA / BA all get rewarded for their divergance with little draw back. BT being the exception. No librarians or devastators, that`s hard cheese in my book.
I never said SM aren`t hard, but like most hard things are prone to shattering if hit in the right place. True SM are many way a more forgiving beginners army as don`t have as many worries about getting spanked for leaving in the open or concentating in critcial zones for tactical superiority. But how many of those shiny 3+ armour sv can marines fail before being crippled. By the way if your outnumbered 3 to 1 u have to kill 4 to 1 to survive, not easy.
I don`t believe orks or anyother army has or should have an overwhelming advantage at the moment. By biggest beef with the upcoming codexs if the removal melta bombs from the fast attack sections and terminators losing both their second heavy weapon and their vet skills.
I mean come on an elite mega force costing 230pts with 4 SB and 1 assault cannon. They`ill be out gunned, out numbered, and out fought in cc by any armys basic troops never mind elites. At least CSM get combi weapons(never thought I say that!) and marks. I have 3 boxes of standard terminators now that have to be convented to assault terminators. (goddamn.)
Anonymous is right that CSM legions have had their souls sold off in the name of returning to 3rd edit.It`s not like none alligned legions would difficult to work in using the new special character defines your whole damn army system.
Still looking forward to new miniatures though!!!
I tried, really i did, but i can't agree with any of your points Keith.
The Traits system with Marines is a complete joke. It's great for making fluffy armies, but it is horribly prone to abuse for power gaming. The disadvantages are a joke, and yes, that includes the 'major' disadvantages, which can be chosen to suit your army.
As far as being outnumbered in games, the best marine players rarely are outnumbered by much, as they take a tonne of foot troops, as they are the backbone of any competitive marine list.
Melta bombs on Assault Marines? Who cares, really? They can have a power fist and 3 plasma pistols, thats pretty darn effective for all tanks, save land Raiders and Monoliths, both of which are fairly rare in tournaments. And Assault Marines should not be your tank hunters, with a tonne of better options (Tactical squads, dreads, devastator squads, etc), they should be plowing into the biggest mob they see!
And while I love having my 2 assault cannons in both my terminator squads, I think they are wrong, both fluff wise, and just a bit overpowered in game.
Any veteran gamers that i know, that play marines, have stupid good tournament records, and that is a result of this codex.
This is only offset by all the young people who play marines and suck...or the people who think they are vets, lol
Never called myself a vet, best description is noob willing to learn. I started by playing epic and have been watching 40k since 2nd edit, only got really involved by 4th.
In that time I have never seen assault marines without melta bombs option. 2 grenade & 2 weapon options hardly constitute a "ton". Doubt you’ll see 3 plasma pistols now when they’re 15pts and will be not worth the risking of overheating. Without flamers they can only tip the balance of a fight with large infantry squad or something small wearing armour, on their own they prone to being outclassed or overwhelmed.(Why use assault terminators for brawling) My point was with that absent minded option deletion, a whole outlook on their use was destroyed. But of course if u wanted to use assault marines, u should play BA.
Another casual oversight is the removal of teleport homers. It don’t effect DA (they have ravenwing) or BA (they wouldn’t bother with terminators) but for everyone else u gave a scout or a bike one as wargear and liked having their terminators land in one piece. Its tough luck, u should be playing DA.
The best marine players have been chewed out by don’t usually bother with traits. I have argued that traits offer a feeble advantage compared to the insanity of monstrous special characters. How is the new character system any less open to abuse? Abaddon, ghazghkull, Dante given the choice to let my opponent pay in pts for a few minor upgrades or given them a super charged psycho at discount prices. (fluff wise its hard to argue why any these characters would bother in such tiny engagements) I would rather see a bit of unorthodoxy in someone’s army.
by the way it`s kinda lousy saying someones record is based on the codex they use. If you want to call someone a poxy bastard claim they use loaded dice. (or invest in them, best buy ever! haven`t lost since!)
The current Space Marine trait system is both open to abuse and flawed. I collect bothe Dark Angels and Marines of a generic chapter, which can be tailored with different traits for each game- depending on what I fancy. Some of these options are quite heinous!
On the flip side a lot of the traits are now dead wood. Why have a trait to take Bolt Pistol and Chainsword instead of a Bolter if the new Codex does what CSM does and gives you them both for starting options? And if you have a pistol for free, what's the point in paying for True Grit? etc etc
An new SM codex will hopefully /tidy up/ the trait system and make the list more balanced.
What is most important though is for this list to be an 'Umbrella' list in that changes made in it apply to all other loyal space marines.
ie Alterations to Drop Pods by default change those in The Dark Angels codex without the codex requiring a re-print or FAQ.
If this is done then a new Space Wolf Codex later on would be the last codex required (otehr than fundamental organisational changes) for any of the specific named chapters for a very long time indeed- freeing up development time for Dark Eldar, Necrons, Imperial Guard (who could follow the same line) etc etc
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