The long wait is over, and Codex: Chaos Deamons is in our greedy little hands. Which member of the Chaos Pantheon can build the meanest army. If you think you can make an even stronger hybrid build, let us know what it is. Finally, how to you guys think this very different army will fit into our 40k universe. Which armies cower in fear from them, which ones don't care a bit?
~Choose carefully, young adventurer, for the Ruinous Powers are fickle and both their gifts and punishments are terrible to behold!
42 comments:
Well, if think, Hybrid Armys are the best. Attacking Bloodletters with Flamers behind them can kill everything. The only problem I had with this army since now was against Tau. 48 Fire Warriors can kill the best Daemon with the highest Inv. Save.
I think as a base, Nurgle makes a fine backbone. Get some things with Feel No Pain in the first turn drop of your army and use them to get icons close to the enemy, then drop in a mixture of the other 3 to taste.
My army will have a bit of everything in it from all four major Chaos powers. I collect all things Chaos and always have. The look of the Chaos models is what got me started in Warhammer and is largely what keeps me in it. I already have a large collection of older daemon models and I bought a 40K Daemon Spearhead to get one of each of the new sculpts too.
By the way, the Direct Only model of the Herald of Khorne which has been available in the GW Online Store for a few days is now also available for order in GW retail stores. I ordered mine yesterday.
I was conflicted when I read Chaos Demons. I like the fluff a lot, but to me it seems that it really steers players into taking mixed armies. Cult armies are the coolest, but I think those will become rarer and rarer.
Khorne is still the strongest.
Behold the blessings of Nurgle are many and wondrous.
rejoice in his name*poot*
Which armies cower in fear from them: Almost all of them.
Which ones don't care a bit:
The ones that won't play em.
From the perspective of a SM player...
Eternal Warrior is going to suck once Force Weapons are "Instant Kill" only and Daemon powers aren't considered "Psychic" anymore, so Psychic Hoods are powerless to negate anything.
Daemons are gonna be a tough nut to crack, that's for sure.
Is there anything in the codex that allows for chaos to take Bloodletters or whatever as allies?
I fought them to a draw my first time out with Necrons, Gonna Try the ol' Orks out against them this weekend.
Dunno really, they sound scary, but die just like any other army. I'm waiting to hear about a Demons vs. Grey knights battle report.
Psycannons anyone?
MY BLOOD-SOAKED CHIT MUST GO TO THE LORD OF SKULLS, MY MASTER KHORNE. HIS HUNGER UNSLACKING, HIS RAGE INSURMOUNTABLE, HIS DENIAL OF ARMOR TO HIS LESSER DEMONS UNFATHOMABLE. WOE BE TO HIS FOES WHO ENTER COMBAT WITHOUT A RAPID FIRE SIDEARM.
(Kr0n gets my vote because I play a mono-blood god army, not because he's actually the BEST build - which is clearly a hybrid one, preferrably all 4 gods)
- Salvage
In my opinion Guard and Tau have least to fear, in particular an experienced Guard player (of which I consider myself)
Khorne with all those power weapons? Pfft, we'd have only had 5+ normally anyway. All those vicious characters/units that will rip through enemies in close combat? We're guard. With a few exceptions, a wet paper bag has a 50/50 chance of besting a guardsmen. So a lot of the daemon advantages aren't that scary.
Take invulnerable saves. Frustrating to a boltgun armed space marine. A lasgun armed guardsmen? He probably won't even hear of armour penetrating weapons until the day he dies.
I'm used to most armies being able to wipe the floor with me if they get into combat. What I am good at is preparing a battle line that minimises their chances for that. I am also quite used to dealing with it when the inevitable happens. A combat in my lines? Throw in another squad for them to chew on so they win the day at the end of their next turn... in the meantime, make a pocket of lasguns all around them, 6.5" away... wait for them to finish off the sacrificial unit.
About the only thing daemon that will annoy me is the inv save against ordnance... but given they arrive in convenient clusters I'll forgive it. A third of them surviving is still more kills than if they were allowed to space themselves out properly. When 5th edition comes in they'll be less vulnerable to this, but I see Tau and Guard as being the daemons worst enemies.
An army that Guard will enjoy playing? Praise the Emperor!
Since your entire army deep strikes, and your opponent gets the first opportunity to blow it away before it can get into close combat, every unit that survives is critical. Since deep striking is an unreliable way to get your models into the correct position on the table, I believe that there are two types of models that are adequate or viable for this army: 1) models with the ability to move more than 6" per turn and 2) models that facilitate the correction of the state of unreliability.
Keeper of Secrets, Lord of Change, 3 units of Flamers, 2 units of Plaguebearers, Nurgle Daemon Prince.
Breath of Chaos is a devastating ability, and 5 units in the army use it. Every daemon list should incorporate this ability.
The Epididimus bomb is going to be standard fare for all Nurgle players. 6 units of plaguebearers supported by 3 heavy hitting winged demon princes to start racking up kills makes for an unstoppable killing force with enough power weapon attacks to make anyone cry.
Mixed forces will probably do best. Nurgle and Tzeentch to start with, to provide solid Icons for summoning, with Khorne and Slaanesh coming in next to do some serious damage. Mono-god armies will have a tough time of it - Nurgle is tough but still struggles to kill things, even with Epididimus (who a smart player will kill before things get too dangerous), Slaanesh packs a nasty punch but is fragile as hell and can't take hits at all, Tzeentch can provide shooting power but lacks in close combat, and Khorne is just the opposite, but does have a measure of staying power thanks to so many of the special daemons having Iron Hide.
It's hard to say what the best build is yet, because there are just so many options. It's super customizable, and almost all the named characters are pretty good. You can go all MCs, lots of lesser daemons, heavy shooting, etc. Add to that the inherent unreliableness of the army - split deployment, only half coming in on first turn, and maybe not the half you want, plus the vagaries of deep strike and no charging turn you land - and Daemons proves a difficult army to play. However, Daemons is going to be great for Apocalypse games!
There is so much one could say, but any army that can put alot of blast templates on the board is going to have an easier time of it than others, flamer heavy sisters.
No ally for CSM hehehe, at least not in normal rules.
Fleet units get to break up some after comming down so they are not hurt as much, and right now with the rending till 5th they hurt very much.
I'd say tzeentch will be the "best" mono-god army cause it is the only one with reliable anti-tank weapons which cannot be outrun by skimmers.
add to that that most of their s8 ds1 guns can be mounted to jump infantry (flamers, winged princes and greater deamons) you can mostly hit side/rear armor and be as effective as tau railgun.
additionally you have the insane flamers and the same pwoer on greater deamons and princes who can shoot an additional 3 s5 ds3 shots to kill wat reminds of infantry
I ask myself what only Demons will do against a 180 Orks. I really dont know. Go into close Comat? I will try it out (with the three spike Goff Terror from the past).
My vote's for Nurgle; simply for staying power. T5, an invuln. save and FNP. It'll take S10 (maybe 8+) to easily take them down. Sometimes getting killed the least is more important then simply killing the most. The Epididimus bomb will make them even better, by adding to their killing power.
Really though, a hybrid army is probably best. A Nurg. base with Tzeentch for shooting. Then a little of one of the others for extra combat punch. Shoot with some horrors, get stuck in with Nurg. and flank charge with some Rending daemonettes or S5 hellblade bloodletters.
I think one of the nastiest has to be slannesh, with the rending. Or nurgle when the epidemus is maxed. Nasty.
I think space marines especially BT and BA players have quite a bit to fear from the deamons. Our strenght lies in combat, as does theirs, only they are better at it. :(
Could take a reaver titan, most opponents cower in fear from that. And khorne haven't got much that can take it. Bloodthirster maybe.
But a mixed army would be better, nurgle for the first turn fire magnet, slannesh/khorne for the clean up crew.
Flamers will make a mess of tau though, S4 AP4 3 shots? make a mess of those fire warriors.
all i have to say is...
REPENT! FOR TOMORROW YOU DIE!
I was pleasantly surprised by the new codex, which I bought reluctantly. I'm still sad that they are seperate from CSM, hopefully I can work out something for friendly games and Apoc.
I'd say a mixed force will be stronger, since you have more variety. I think Slaanesh will do the most damage since it is so fast and rending, and Pavane of Slaanesh is nice. I'll probably mix and match two gods when I play (both due to lack of models for mono and for army strength).
I have a bone to pick with GW. Compare the profiles for CHaos Spawn and Fiends of Slaanesh. Fiends are nasty. For 10 points LESS, you get rending,+1 WS, +2 I, no slow and purposeful, you can control their movement, they have 6attacks on the charge instead of an average of 3.5, they count as scoring units in 4th ed., and to top it all off a 5+ inv. save. The only downside is one less wound and one less toughness, but since you can get more of them and they have an inv. save that downside means little.
So that means... Chaos Spawn are a joke, ruleswise. I'm going to field 18 Spawn models as Fiends in my new Daemon army.
I'm pissed that the "Skittles" approach is now mandatory to make a competitive army. Perhaps modeling a lot of "counts as" deamons from the other powers will make a mono-cult army playable on the table. For example, one could convert some Bloodletters with brass projectile weapons to count as Flamers, or heavily armored Bloodletters to count as Plaguebearers.
I just mourn the terrible idea of the Chaos Powers deciding to play nice all the time. I miss enmity!
That "counts as" approach is always the way I envisioned playing. I have the original wiry bloodletters, those make perfect daemonettes when put side by side with the new ones! Same thing with lots and lots of other great conversion opportunities out there, including ridden beasts of nurgle instead of juggernauts, etc. Bring your models back to the table!
RTM
@Firewasp
BA has nothing to fear from daemons, as we can dance around them w/ bolt pistols all day till they are in managable numbers.
Bt is hosed though =P LRC's maybe?
I agree with Owen and RT Maitreya.
Outside of Apoc I'll never field more than two powers at once, because in the original backstory, Khorne and Slaanesh are mortal enemies, as are Tzeentch and Nurgle.
Come to think of it, wouldn't it also make sense for Khorne and Tzeentch to have a rivalry (since Tzeentch is master of sorcery and tricks, which Khorne despises) and Slaanesh to have a rivalry with Nurgle (pretty versus rotting.)
so... tzeench and nurgle... together... someone needs to give those GW boys a nice open handed slap. Seriously, hello a buch of beardy weirdness. The chaos Gods dont play nice with each other. Not boycotting games with mixed armies, it's just so sad and characterless (big thumbs up to those of u going 'counts as', seems the only way u can get fluffy without being too unbalanced). Hehe... fluffy deamons.
As a long time commander of all things Nurgle, they get my vote out of moral support, oh and not to mention being tough as nails!
Though i personally can't see the opposing gods working together except when all four are involved in a major warp-incursion. It's also a shame that they can't ally with Chaos Space Marines, but generic daemons will just have to do.
All praise to Papa Nurgle
Further to my last, Black Templars are probably in the most trouble against this army, for a simple reason. Yes they are a combat army, but part of their strength is their relative durability - 3+ save means against most opponents you're tough to take down. But against entire squads with rending or power weapons? Tough luck.
The daemons weakness is on arrival. All bunched up with nowhere to go. Most armies will, quite obviously, shoot the crap out of them before they can move off. Here's a tactic for anyone facing black templars with slaanesh or preferably khorne units dropping in on the first wave. Include something shooty that can reliably take down a space marine. Herald with daemonic gaze/death strike. Soulgrinder. Something. Then shoot the nearest templar units to your daemons, and hope they pass their leadership check and run towards you. Sure giving them the charge will make them more effective against you. But you should still come out the victor, and better yet you'll probably be locked in combat throughout his turn. You'll lose a few to the combat, but probably less than you'd lose to shooting, plus you've already chewed your way through one of his units and are ready to go.
I fought twice a mono god demon army of Khorne. I slaught him twice, first time with a chaos nurgle army, second time with a space wolf army, and not specialised against daemon (I sould play against a chaos marines army, not demon). Khorne sucks, a 5+ inv isn't good against anything, especially flamers. I killed 2 soul grinder and overall 15 minor daemons with only one tornado speeder (flamer/melta)... who stay alive.
I've read the book, and I really think taht a mixed nurgle/tzeentch army can be the best (but not correct with the fluff), and tzeentch as monogod (not the problem to make nothing when they come in play). But I don't think we will see many demons armies to some 40k's conventions or tournaments.
(excuse me for my not very good english, I'm a french player).
I don't think it's even really worth speculating over.
All the closed gaming & campaign groups are going to just stick with the 3rd ed codex forever now anyhow (with the obligatory 'no beardy HQs' house rule still in place, of course)
Its like GW is making a conscious effort to force away their player base.
I must be the only person to think that a Tzeentch/Slaanesh army would do wonders. You get good ranged firepower, and you get fast-moving assault units with great initiative. A hybrid army with those two would be a great balance between a ranged army and an assault army.
@ anonymous
"All the closed gaming & campaign groups are going to just stick with the 3rd ed codex forever now".
Really? Is that because of the mix of fluff, and allowing daemons and Chaos Space Marines (CSM)to play together? Or because the new books no longer allow such freedom?
I could understand house rules to allow the CSM and daemon codices to be paired but i don't think i've met anyone who feels the new books are that bad - once gotten used to of course ;)
I swear blind that the White dwarf heralding the release of Codex CSM inferred that the new Codex Daemons would be pairable with it? Sadly i've lost my copy, does anybody else remember it?
I miss having flavoured daemons available to me as a CSM player but i realise that the lesser daemons in the CSM codex aren't too bad. Was thinking of a house rule for use at home in the summer along the lines of "Codex Daemons can be used along-side Codex CSMs to field the basic daemons (Plaguebearer, Daemonette, Horror/flamer and Bloodletter) and/or a Greater daemon in a ratio of one unit of daemons per troop selection already filled by CSMs"
Sound fair? And do others miss un-generic daemons in a CSM force?
Thanks, no offence intended to 'anonymous'
I've house-ruled real daemons into my Word Bearers, and it goes thusly:
You may ally the following units from Codex: Chaos Daemons into a Codex: Pointy Emo Stepchild Marines. However, you may not use generic daemons of any sort.
0-1 HQ
0-1 Elites
0-2 Troops
0-1 Fast Attack
These take up FoC slots as normal. They do not count as scoring units (5th will make it so anyway). They arrive and are summoned as per C:CSM (ie. not first turn, need icons), except that they cannot assault after summoning.
I've found that combination of rules makes it pretty fair.
As for which army might come out on top, I'd have to say full-on Tzeentch, with nearly every model on the table putting out 3 S4 AP4 shots every turn. Or better.
@ anonymous & albertsevil
Personally, I don't think that Codex: Daemons is inherently a failure. In the hands of the kind of players I campaign with at least, there's no risk of anyone showing up with a mixed-cult army (they'd be laughed out of the room) and the rules do a decent job of both keeping simple and representing the daemons well. I especially like how they made the slaanesh units so anti-eldar, its very appropriate.
However, in the larger warhammer universe view, Chaos is falling on its head. The new Codex:CSM was an epic failure in terms of its inability to represent any chaos force fluffily. With no veteran marines, cult units, real daemons, cultists or options to speak of, it may be powerful, but its not fun.
Add the fact that there is no rules allowing chaos forces to take allies, especially when the inquisition codices had already formalized the groundwork for doing so, is unforgiveable.
For my part, I'll be happy to let any chaos player i'm facing use the old 'dex, if only because so many of them don't have any other choice.
I've been running a Tzeentch/Slaanesh list for the past 3 weeks that has been doing awesome for me. I actually think it's overpowered. Just way too many rending attacks. You can tell it's made for the switch for rending in 5th.
I bought the codex today and was a bit dismayed. The product didn't really shine as it should: ugly fonts, sub-par illustrations and not very eye-catching fluff. Compared to Black Library's Liber Chaotica it sucks.
I haven't had time to read it carefully but it feels like the fare of the new 5th ed. compliant codexii is to define the character of the codex in the named characters, going bananas with the special rules.
Maybe I'm just a boring old fart but I feel it's better to create my own characters with highly customizable HQ choices than using pre-fabs.
And what the hell happened with the god's animosities?
What army to powergame with? My money is on the Tzeentch-Slaanesh combo, sad but true
With Skarbrand, furious charge, and power weapons all around, I've got to go with Khorne for pure killpower.
you could use the inquisition style allies chart like what monkeys'r'us said. i really wouldnt have a problem facing that. would be rather fun i think...
I'm going with 4 Khornate Chariots, 2 units of 4 Bloodcrushers with Icons, lots and lots of Bloodletters and some Nurgle Princes with iron Hide and Breath of Chaos for anti tank capability.
Herald: The Herald of Khorne with Unholy Might, Fury of Khorne and Chariot is utterly underprised. One of the best HQs in the game. He costs 110 pts and you can take 4 of them. He smacks down 5 S7 I6
power weapon attacks with rending. Is that good? I seems to have forgot.
Bloodcrushers: Do the math about how much it takes to bring them down. They are the perfect Icon Bearers. T5, 2W and 3+ save... yes please. Oh, do I get 4 S6, I5 power weapon attacks on the charge? Well thank you so kindly. Do 4 of them have rending? This is just too much.
Bloodletters: These will get mowed down, as they should. Buy lot's of them. If they get inte combat they'll eat through anything. Just keep them cheap without any upgrades. No Icons, no nothing.
The only problem I have is about the anti tank department. I'd like to use the Bloodthirster to rip up tanks, but then again, I do so love my wonderful rending Heralds.
I'm going for a pure nurgle deamon army to show my love and dedication to grandpapa nurgle
Best god? Gork. Obviously.
the nurgle armies work the best as individual god armies but a mixed army would be the best, probably nurgle and slaanesh would be the 2 best.
Post a Comment