Which race do you think is the big winner of the new rule-set, either because they got substantially buffed, or just didn't get nerfed like many other armies.
Lets hear it folks, who and why?
~You know the drill ladies and gentlemen, poll, left column, attack!!!
65 comments:
waaagh
The Tau. Lighter vehicle move-and-shoot rules for Skimmers, loss of heavier vehicles less burdensome thanks to prevalence of battlesuits, no more Consolidation makes the Tau gunline something to truly dread if you manage to kill whatever you're in close combat with, and Run will get them into firing range with a quickness. The Bug-Eyed Commies are going to rise to their own fluff with this new ruleset.
waaagh
I'm thinking Necrons will be good, until their codex changes. Monoliths are going to be a pain in the ass to kill. In fact, I dare you to kill a monolith. Also, Cover rules will save Necrons a lot of hassle.
I also think that Tau and gunline IG will be good, unless they get their codecies redone (only guard really...). New SM codex could be bonkers-crazy as well...
Bwahaha people actually voted IG.
IG. They can line up conscripts in front of their line to give their whole line 4+ cover saves and can move the screen out of the way in the movement phase, shoot with the stationary squads and then 'run' the conscripts back in the way after they have shoot (I think, can running be done at any point in the shooting phase?). Also, beating a guard army in close combat is no longer possible as you can only kill one squad at a time and get rapid fired every time you kill a squad. Although wound allocation could hurt them (not as much as min maxed marines though).
Also, guard will have so many scoring units compared with everyone else.
waaargh
Orks.
Running + Cover Saves + Gretchin = WIN!
And the real loser with 5th Ed?
Anyone who likes the idea of vehicles acting like tanks rather than bunkers. :(
Orks are now so incredibly overpowered it's not even funny. They've come a long way from being the "fun but terrible" army, now they're "awesome but boring"! Yay!
The Tyranids. I play IG, and while IG infantry is looking nicer, IG tanks got nerfed quite hard. I live in perpetual fear of genestealers and winged hive tyrants as things are, and now that heavy bolters are no longer defensive weapons and Russes get assaulted on armor 10 no matter what, Russes can't shoot the stealers and can't survive a turn of assault against that most evil and winged of hive tyrants. I will have to find a new way to kill these things.
C'mon, orks are gonna be THE army of the 5th edition.
They are ridiculously cheap (6pts) and overpowered.
There's no army like the orks.
And armied like tau and IG are gonna be disadvantaged instead. Close combatunits will be on them much faster.
The whole doesn't seem that balanced overall. Hope the FAQS will fix that a bit.
I know it doesn't correspond with the fluff, but I am actually looking foward to fielding the Vyper Guided Missiles. The one thing I have always disliked about my Vypers is that a weapon destroyed result essentially made it a 90pt paper weight. Now they get one last chance to go out in a blaze of glory, hopefully taking whatever damaged it.
Yeah it looks like any army that can convincingly do the "Horde" thing is getting a huge benefit really.
But I think I'll wait to see the book before I make any firm commitment as to who is "le suck" now
With five troops to pick from CSM will be rock hard in the next ed. Scoring until the last man? The four fearless troop choices definatly swings it for chaos space marines.
IG will be good too, up to five scoring units per FOC slot will make an impact. Especially with modified cover rules. All tanks should be protected by infantry, just adapt to that and your russes will be just fine. And for God's sake, keep your enemy at arm's lenght at all times.
Orks.
no contest. they are the big winners of 5th Ed
WAAAAAGGGHHHH!!!!!!!!
Guard probably get hurt the worst with the vehicle changes, Run on everything, and 4+ cover for intervening units.
I whould have to say ork, say you now have the ability to run and provide cover.
Gunlines will be nerfed as LOS is changed. Remember that friendly units profide cover for the enemy = conscripts will have a hard time to line all thouse guns up w/o giving away cover saves.
And depending on how much of the roumored stuff that will end up in the real SM codex, i whould say marines. They sound abit harsh.
BUTT, mainly ORKZ!
Daemon Hunters - for the lulz. They did gain a slight upper hand though.
I voted IG because I think the assault rules favour their shooting. I hate it when a unit gets into my gunline and then pursues into the next unit. Now the next unit shoots them. Tanks behave like WW2 tanks now so I will continue to mainly use them in Apocalypse. Wish I lived near the 'nana who sold his IG! I only have 2 platoons
I guess most people that vote for Space Marines, have their new codex not the new edition in mind...
I think Tyranids and Orcs are the clear winners, perhaps Chaos Space Marines.
Why so good result for SM? They will have good codex, but basic 5thED rules won´t boost them.
I voted Dark Angels, I know it's going to take a bit of getting used to the new rules, and I know I'm more than a bit biased, but:
Termintors as Troops :D
if Deep Strike isn't changed too much, then you can drop them on an objective late in game, and hey presto!
and on a side note:
Combat Sqauds
Two Troop choices for the price of one!
cullial:
LOL, thanks for all your kill points!
Waaarghhh!
I think the folks voting for Space Marines are betting on the age-old certainty that anything which alters rules will somehow benefit the Space Marine players. Why they didn't call it "Space Marines 40,000" is beyond me at times...
So the question really is, who will have to change their strategy and tactics the most?
No armies are getting "nerfed", but many players will have to rethink their one trick ponies.
My answer to this poll is not to answer.
@ anon
I think I can say with certainty, without knowing anything at all about the 5th ed. rules, that "le suck" will be Dark Eldar.
Without becoming a pack leader, the WH codex got a lot better: Cheap Power-Armour troop (sisters) will help tremendously. Plus a lot of weird CC units (Penitent Engines, Arco-flagellants, zealots) benefit from the run rule. Most of our tanks have either 1 weapon (so defensive weapons) or can move 12" and still fire their Heavy flamers (Immolators). Our "Power-fists" (eviscerators) where 2-handed anyways. Our seraphims can now deep-strike. Our Inquisitorial Storm-troopers' plasmagun do not "get hot" on a 2 when rapid-firing.
Good times!
Phil
I think people chose Space marines not so much because they go boosts as much as they got hurt less then other army lists. I gott aagree with the other poster, no armies are nerfed, just some army lists get nerfed - and thats a big difference.
Eldar! 3 fire prisms sitting in
cover being fortuned all game will
be nasty. Suicide vypers will
be fun to. And of course
crack shot will be perfect for
taking down enemy vehichles.
Not being biased but as everyone but space marines are a bunch of weak willed, traitorous, heretical bunch of xenos / xenos loving filth. I would have to say space marines. I look forward when eventually space marines will get a special rule where they roll a D6 at the start of the game and if they get 2+, they win! All hail Jervis. Cause people are confused by things like veteran skills, war gear and deep down just what to play the same vanilla army for 10 years no matter what the rules changes. P.S. flamer, missile launcher tactical squad rules! I think every army should be forced to take at least 2 of them! And remember, all hail Jervis! Killing epic 40,000 was a fluke what’s the odds of killing 40k as well? (Wait a minute! Oh crap!)
I can't even believe you had to ask this, what army has been deemed so utterly perfect that the have needed no updates since their release?
(Sans a small update to add an extra HQ)
Whose rules are the pinnacle of balance?
Whose miniatures are the most perfected design since their first crafting that they need no new range?
Why, the Dark Eldar of course. I can see no other reason why they wouldn't be up for an update other then Games Workshop must've gotten them right, nay more then that, Perfect first time around.
To even think other wise is an insult to the sheer brilliance that is Games Workshop.
Fore shame, people, fore shame.
Actually, Dark Eldar are looking to gain big time from this...
First, the fast skimmers (Raiders) now have a 4+ cover save, and they only have 1 weapon anyways so they don't take the nerf hit. Not to mention the Dark Eldar can move 12", drop the troops who can fleet-of-foot, and then assault, all in the same turn. If you get the 12" assault Combat Drugs that makes for a deadly combination!
Nerfing other vehicles makes it easier for the Dark Lances to take them out and the assault changes make it easier for the fast little buggers to "roll up" a firing line.
2nd I would say the Black Templar. They are fearless in CC and can have up to 20 man Troop squads, not to mention the troop squads already get Bolt Pistols/CCW's! They will be the only Marine army left able to take BP/CCW Tac Squads now that Traits are nerfed.
Basically I see 5th Edition as majorly awarding to FAST, hard-hitting armies that prefer close combat.
I'll break the mold here and go with Chaos Daemons as the biggest winner in the coming version.
Honestly they have a rock solid codex, and many of the new rules are going to make their big daemons much tougher to kill (eternal warrior and the biggie for SM players, Force Weapons are only "instant death" weapons...which most big critters are immune to)
Orks are a close second. Somebody mentioned how they used to be a fun but largely ineffective army but now it's not so. I'd have to agree with that. They are most certainly competitive now, and it's a lot easier now to mitigate the cool randomness of the previous ork codices.
Tyrannids are next in line. Cover saves for units with intervening meat shields. Great!
I'm still looking forward to the edition and have enjoyed the direction Jervis Johnson has brought to the game. It's a helluva lot better than the uber-all-powerful pet armies of 2nd and 3rd Ed (where codices were written by folks who either loved or hated the army, regardless of game balance, *cough* *CSM* *cough*.
you can always keep your 4th edition rule book and play with your buds that also still have their 4th edition rules. i myself play 2nd edition from time to time with an old school buddy of mine who refuses to give up his heavy flamer template.
someone ought to start "type 1" 40k tourneys for the old-schoolers.
anyway i voted tau because the non consolidating into other units is great for me. str5 defensive weapons works because i use drones. i use BS instead of HHs and more kroot than you should.
@michael - looks like all Marines are getting BP and CCW in addition to bolters - so Im not sure Black Templars get all that much boosting
@john
Fearless in CC, 20-man Tac Squads, move towards the enemy when they get mad, and the ability to take 4 HQ's still help them out.
@John
I think tactical marines will get Bolter and BP like the Dark Angels and Blood Angels, but not Bolter, BP & CCW like chaos marines.
Any army with really solid troop choices, like Marines, CSM, Necrons etc should do well. Not sure which will come out on top overall though.
I voted Orks.
I think that SM will be about the same as now a solid army that can hang with anyone with at least a little knowledge of what the other player will bring.
The new consolidation rules are actually going to make space marines a better choice to assault compared to other races since it is very hard to wipe out a squad in 1 turn and they cannot be sweeping advanced away which would leave the assaulter open to shooting. Even taking the extra wounds for getting caught retreatinh there are likely to 1-2 marines left to eat up during the next turn.
Oh my god! Nobody thinks of daemons???
Running bloodcrushers,improved covers, and the "unit blocks los" stuff will incredebily buff them. Plus they are designed to the 5th edition, just check the codex.
Orks.
They are ridiculously cheap for what they do. From basic boyz to most special characters.
I voted Orks as they will benefit the most from running and are already rock solid without the ability. Also the Green Tide will not be affected by the change to vehicle firing rules. The only real nerf I can figure is the loss of the lone Shock Attack Gun.
As a Space Wolf player though I'll ask that you re-host this poll in December.
I voted Eldar, somebody has to represent!
I vote Orks. I played them for years with their crappy codex, the new one is amazing in 4th and will be even stronger in 5th... taking casualties from anywhere in the squad means WAY more ork close combat attacks. Running and then doing one fleet move (for the assault) once a game makes them pretty damn fast.
Another point is that they can have a lot of effective scoring units for a low cost.
I don't know how you can think Orks are boring, their codex is cool because their are little to no bad choices. Honestly it is a little bit overpowered but I don't see it as super cheesy (like Holobeard; Nidzilla; or 2 Lashes + Marked Assault Terminators in a LR + Vindicators + Oblits.)
JohnPublic:
What do you mean by "the loss of the lone Shock Attack Gun"?
Space Wolves.
Know why? Because they'll get the first real codex written for 5th after the new rules have had time to sink into the RTT/GT circuits.
"loss of the lone Shokk Attack Gun"- in 4th Ed ICs are untargetable as long as you have another unit closer to the enemy than the IC. This is very easy for Orks, who chuck a mess of Boyz mobs in their frontline, and keep their SAG Mek on the back line, giving them a pie-plate chucker which the opponent can't shoot back at. This rule goes out of the window in 5th Ed though.
Orks ftw, btw- everyone's forgetting that you can take such weird shizz as Meganobz (like Terminators, but proppa) or Deff Dreads as troop choices depending on which HQ you choose, so you get rock solid, hard hitting units who can still claim objectives, on top of the usual "Green tide".
Too much BAAAAAAW!
The newest army having a codex will be the best, it's clear, it costs too much to think how about win them, despite it will be cheesy
Wow. Only 7% on the nids? You guys know stealers can re-roll all missed hits AND wounds right? And will be screened by 5-point spinegaunts?
Have fun underestimating the powerhouse of 5th folks XD
@ NallTWD
Feeder tendril amkes them reroll to hits, but what makes them reroll to wounds?
Nids are going to be crazy. But i still see little to do against a green tide of running orks. Its tought enough as it is.
To Ulthanesh,
Space wolves will be the first real codex, but won't be better than their 4th edition update. Power fists will be easy to kill, and it's the main force of the SW (wit th HQ rules who will surely disappear). Shooting armies will be better, but there is one army that everybody forgets.
Dark eldars. They will kill all our options in close combat before than anyone could use it, and they will be in the close combat faster than the others (especiallly against CC army, like wolves or demons). I don't give any chance for anyone to win with new dark eldars and rules gone for them. Only nides get a chance against them (and maybe demon slaanesh army...).
dark eldar.
This is an army that was so perfectly balanced and well thought out that the codex survives as a power army to this day, 10 years later!
Fast Skimmers can still move 24"? Check!
Skimmers get a 4+ cover save at times and a 'dodge' save against ramming? Check!
Defensive weapons are strength 4 now? Disintegrators bend this rule over! Check!
We can now attempt to kill specific models before they have a to strike back? Check!
Screening units for a 4+ cover save can now help keep WWP units live longer? check!
Just about the only rule that hurts us is the no more consolidation into new units anymore. But when an army has DE all up in their grill, this isn't a problem really. I mean, we deal with this NOW anyway after an Archon w/Incubi wipe out a unit and stand out in the open to die. Same with Wyches. So this rule isn't anything we can't learn to work around with skillful planning, unit placement and tactics.
So yeah, while Orks needed a new book to make them better, Dark Eldar will continue to make themselves better by not even having to update our book. We are just that frikkin good.
I don't think that the tyranids will be as super as some want them to be. Losing the ability to consolidate into combat, as well as the potency of rending is a big hit. As far as the best army... probably the IG. Suddenly a single assault squad can't kill an entire gun line. And not being able to be mobile with your tanks... when has that stopped a 120" indirect fire cannon?
wow, last i checked it was 333 votes for marines, 333 for orks....looks like a return to the glory days of 2nd edition rivalries.....but of course, we all know what 333 x 2 adds up to, i expect legions to wipe the floor with everyone, if and when the chaos followers make their appearance with a proper dex.
Wow so many responces.
I think saying any army before we see the entire suite of new rules, is very premature.
Given what I see BT are definatly getting a boost from the rear armor thing that will let their CC troops have more inpact vs armo.
The new glancing table will help eliminate oopsy kills on LRCs which are going to become the true assualt tank.
Also Skimmers getting a cover save will help BT who usually have a good number to make up for lack of HWs.
Also they are the last SM chapter to beable to "spam" assault cannons and also have variable size units if the 5ed SM codex rumors are correct.
As for if this is enough to overcome someother armies also getting better or worse I have no idea, and honestly I don't think any but the most analytical tourney players do either.
Here is why I voted Daemonhunters. I run a semi-mech Daemonhunters. That is, two/three land-raiders, 20/30 PAGK and HQ/Assassins.
Almost everything I have seen benefits my army.
DCA can now infiltrate from any board edge.
Landraiders are nigh indestructible. Powerfists will become less popular/get less attacks. While all other vehicles will be getting hit on weak rear armor, the raider is 14/14/14, so is unaffected. Plus, screening will allow yet another level of defence for the raider. First roll to hit, then roll the cover save THEN roll to beat AV 14 then the glancing/pen roll.
And finally, all grey knights are fearless. So they will stay on the board (and remain scoring) till kingdom come.
One thing that sucks is the new independent character rules. No more sniping 91 point bro-cap. :(
~Cataline
I don't vote as all the rumors still don't give a clear picture yet. Furthermore, I believe that Gamesworkshop attempts to balance the game, even if they can't balance it perfectly, of course.
However, the 5th edition surely helps close combat so I plan to bring back my footslogging Boyz with sluggaz and choppaz. Orkz will be even stronger, but any other army with strong CC units as well.
Are u people joking??
How is it possible to vote SM??
Do u know what u are voting about?
before everyone gets to excited about jervis' new direction. I would like to point out that he and gav where responsible for the mess that was 3rd edit space marines and most of the of the first load of rubbish 3rd edit codexs. People gave out crap about 4th edit rules. Did they see the 3rd edit codex. Only after seeing the 4th edit space marine codex did I think vanilla marines would be worth collecting. The 2 chaos codex together are savage. The xenos codex rock and that leaves marines being nutered and subject to codex creep. Wait for SW the darling of loyalists.
I'd say Orks and CSM's are the big winners. I'd hate to try and take out hordes of the super tough different CSM troop choices.
IG look set to be really competative. As people have said IG get silly amounts of scoring units, all scoring until the last man. However people are overlooking the 6th scoring unit per troops choice. the platoon command. 36 scoring units is nothing to laugh at and with that much infantry there will be cover saves everywhere for the guard. Russes dnt even need to be anywhere near the frontline anymore. just find a spot, bunker down and fire away with cannons gallore.
god you guys... don't you know about the scout and infiltrators bonus's. Xd oh good. I say dark angels myself.
First, deathwing assault can assault same time as deep strike. seconds all ravenwing have scout so they get a bloody ace bonus from the new rules(wont tell ya what it is though just know you'll love scout and infiltrate armies). third, dont overtrate all the coversaves orcs nids and such, dark angels get wirlwinds that ignore coversaves, buh bye orcies and nids. With mass boltgun blast template. Landspeeders even more survivable. briliant samael 14 front and side and a 4+ coversave. and glancing hits cant kill i beleive. Yea well blood angels also do well too but lets see.
Orks seem to be set to dominate 5th Ed it seems, a good thing to change the overall metagame. Tons of dirt-cheap boyz "running" across the board before popping a Waaghh! right before they charge, loota's with blistering firepower, they got it made.
However the Imperial Guard look like they are going to be hit like the fist of an angry god. Yes they get a lot of scoring units, but almost everything in the army is overcosted, and will become even more so now that everything is getting cover saves for models between them and the firing unit, as well as every unit in the game getting run in order to close to CC faster.
IG tanks get harder to kill from shooting apparently, but are even more vulnerable to CC attacks than they already are which is absolutely ridiculous given their already current over-vulnerability. What's more, they become pillbox's, which may be fine for ordnance slugging Leman Russ's, but not for the rest of them, and even the Ordnance is getting less accurate.
It's not looking good for the IG.
Orks. They'll be just as cheesey in 5th as they are now: brokenly so.
Orks are NOT cheesy now. Although they did get some buffs from the last Codex, other things were toned down too- they now strike at I3 instead of I4 on the charge so they always go second against MEQ no matter what, morale is weaker in the new Codex (especially with the focus on smaller specialist mobs like Lootaz, as any unit smaller than 12 Orks is very very vulnerable to morale), and the Mob Up rule is gone so you can no longer "catch" retreating units and add their numbers. The new Looted Wagon is piss-poor compared to the old Looted Leman Russ or Basilisk, so we no longer have any sort of real tank (the Battlewagon is always a glorified transport like the Land Raider). The Zzap Gun lost its "auto-hit" rule, the Kannon lost the rule where it penetrates like an Ordnance round, Tankbustas are now left chasing Land Speeders around the table instead of doing something useful due to the Glory Hogs rule, and Burnaz no longer get 2D6 armour penetration, meaning that our anti-tank weaponry got even worse than it already was. Lootaz are a potent new anti-skimmer weapon, but the only real way we can pop anything with AV14 reliably is a Warboss with Power Klaw on a Warbike.
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