Looks what's coming down the pipe in July.
First up we see the super limited edition 40k Collector's Edition. It looks like it has a super fancy tri-fold cover with a purity seal included.
Second we see visual confirmation of the 40k Gamer's Edition mentioned earlier. It looks the earlier rumor was spot on regarding the content details. That "ammo crate" is metal and has a foam liner, so you could fit minis in there.
Price for either Collector's or Gamer's Edition: $90USD~You better believe I've already signed up for a Gamers Edition set. I want those tokens. I'm sure these are limited releases so if you want one, run don't walk to your LGS and sign up.
63 comments:
I'm not really sure about the gamer's edition anymore. I've got nice counters from GF9 for the tank damages and I find their black and silver top and velter undercover make them a lot nicer. As much as I usually love most GW stuff, those counters seem a bit... cartoonish. And the turn counter a bit flimsy. The box is appealing though, but not worth 40$.
Oh well, I still can't wait to get my hand on the book (as well as Apoc II and the new washes.
Phil
Cant say I am a fan of the price tag on the gamers edition - not sure its worth it
I am going to get both seeing as I'm a collector as well as a gamer.
For me the deciding factor is how many minis would fit into the ammo crate. If only a dozen or so, then I might have to pass.
I don't mind the tokens so much, I imagine they'll come out on their own for a limited time.
Those counters are interesting, but as noted earlier, look a bit cheap. Turn counter, damage markers, objective markers, rapid fire markers, run markers, vehicle speed markers, smoke marker... Don't see anything that looks like a pin marker which is too bad because that would have been handy.
The gamers edition looks cool.
I really only want the Rulebook and those counters though.
If the new starter set was coming out at the same time as the Rulebook, I'd just buy that and live with the small rulebook.
I hope we hear word on the new starter set soon, it's what i'm most pumped about.
This looks sick i will be definetly ordering one when GW Canada get a pre release sign up . Will for sure be getting the ammo crate edition and maybe if the funds allow it the limited edition
Any guesses on whether that ammo crate fits inside of the Apocalypse backpack? If so...I'm in.
" when GW Canada get a pre release sign up "
The idiots at GW Canada will most certainly be late on this. And will want to charge you a small fortune. They don't realize that the Canadian dollar is worth about as much as the US dollar now. Morons.
Don't reward their stupidity with ordering from GW Canada! Much better to talk to a US online store.
any reason why the ammo crate looks 3d rendered? same goes for the sprue.
It could actually just be a 3D rendering (product mockup) of what the final product is supposed to look like.
Although it's clear they've done some graphical manipulation, so maybe thats why it looks funny.
Limited edition plastic sprue?
Yeah, give that a second to sink in...
The marker and token sprues will also be sold separately. A set of two will be $15 US.
Well, back in the days when fourth Edition was hitting the shops the GW representative told us "And the limited Edition will be sold in a bolter ammunition crate."
man, i'm SO getting that gamers edition, especially since funding limitation made me miss the apoc backpack. although the purity sealed limited ed looks tasty, too....
That purity seal looks incredibly goofy in my opinion. Blaaah.
Regarding the ammo crate, I can't wait to hear about the first time someone's flight gets grounded for security reasons because they tried to get on board carrying a metal box that says "Danger of pre-detonation".
I think i'd like the Gamer's edition, the ltd. book is nice, but likely not worth the $150 price tag that will likely accompany it.
"Don't reward their stupidity with ordering from GW Canada! Much better to talk to a US online store."
Wow, when US prices get realigned to be in tune with the rest of the world, whatever will you do?
lmao @ ptr!
Why is the UK, supposedly home or all things Warhammer, always last to get any of this stuff? Not a thing on the UK site yet, and they were a week late getting the coiunter up!
Get it together GW!
Right, now that's off my chest, I'll probs end up getting the ammo crate (I don't fly much!), missed the Apoc backpack much to my regret!
On the collector's ed., any idea if that trifold thing is a slip case or is that attached to the back cover? f it is a slip case I might consider it. if it is attached to the cover though that has got to be unwieldy.
"Wow, when US prices get realigned to be in tune with the rest of the world, whatever will you do?"
Order from Canada again. The fact that US pricing is still generally 30% lower is sickening. I'm not saying US pricing should be brought up, but Canadian pricing should be brought in line with US pricing. The only model they've done this with is the Baneblade. US buyers are contemplating whether the extra $40 is worthwhile, whilst I'm thinking if I order from The War Store, with the current exchange, the Gamer's Ed is only $5 more than the rulebook alone. This disparity in pricing is killing local retail. It's truly sad when all I buy at my local store these days is paint.
Yeah, on second thought, if the collector's edition is a slip cover, I might consider it. It will be my bedside book for a few month, might as well be nice!
As for GW Canada, they are still at the good price, since the CDN$ hasn't moved in regards to the British Pound. It's GW US that has ridiculously low prices considering their $ went down the drain in the last year. Still, for now, it's cheaper for me to order from GW US or The Warstore than from discount online canadian store (ie GC minies).
Phil
Paul said...
"Wow, when US prices get realigned to be in tune with the rest of the world, whatever will you do?"
Order from Canada again. The fact that US pricing is still generally 30% lower is sickening. I'm not saying US pricing should be brought up, but Canadian pricing should be brought in line with US pricing. The only model they've done this with is the Baneblade. US buyers are contemplating whether the extra $40 is worthwhile, whilst I'm thinking if I order from The War Store, with the current exchange, the Gamer's Ed is only $5 more than the rulebook alone. This disparity in pricing is killing local retail. It's truly sad when all I buy at my local store these days is paint.
Paul, that's the way of the world. You can buy a can of Coke in Indonesia for like $0.10US, but the factory workers there make $0.23 an hour.
GW's prices aren't killing local retail - you are. Buy local or say goodbye to your independent stores. Just because you can buy something cheaper somewhere else does not make it the right thing to do.
"GW's prices aren't killing local retail - you are. Buy local or say goodbye to your independent stores. Just because you can buy something cheaper somewhere else does not make it the right thing to do."
No, GW Canada is killing their market.
Sentry Box in Calgary has US pricing, on anything more than 30 days old. That's responding to the GW Canada BS. They even show the difference on their website! No hiding from the issue. That makes it not worthwhile to order from the US, support my local store, and still get a great deal.
Even with new stuff coming out, GW Canada lethargically hasn't done a thing to balance the pricing.
"GW's prices aren't killing local retail - you are. Buy local or say goodbye to your independent stores. Just because you can buy something cheaper somewhere else does not make it the right thing to do."
Ahh, come on, the cost of living is not 30% cheaper in the US. Really, I work 40-45 hours a week for my money while, when I go (went) to my local reatailer he's playing the Playstation3 or chatting. He makes no effort a making campaigns/conversion clinics/in-store events. He says warhammer doesn't par the rent, Magic the Gathering and Pokemon cards are. On the other side, I've got Neal at the Warstore that has better prices, godd communication and cheap delivery to my door.
I'm not killing the local retailer. GW's lower cost price in the US and my local retailer's general laziness are.
Really, I don't know if the Fly Lords are associated with a local store. But if that ws the case, I'd go buy at that store just for the nice codecies/add-on they create.
Maybe one day, when I've paid my house and put enough money aside, I'll open up an independant retailer and do all those thing I dream a local retailer should do. All the things I'd like to be doing right now instead of my regular job, really...
Phil
Boreas just hit it on the head. All the prices are set relative to the GBP, and canadian dollars are worth the same as they've always been. U.S. prices are staying the same because if they raise them to take into account the falling dollar, they'll spiral out of control and GW will lose their largest playerbase. They need U.S. money to stay afloat, and raising prices much more will cut into their profits deeply as a lot of people would tell them to shove their already inflated prices.
When, how, where can we order/pre-order this stuff? I checked GW US website and didn't see anything. I want them both... NOW!
-Valour
All of these items are available for pre-order now at GW stores. This includes the Gamer's Edition, Collector's Edition, and Apocalypse Reload book. As has been the case most of the time since last year, the items are available for pre-order at the retail stores before they become available on the Advance Order page of the GW website.
If you're really anxious, you can usually call Direct Services and pre-order before items appear in the online store. Call GW at 1-800-394-GAME (4263) if you can't wait for the web store and don't live near a GW retail shop or independent shop that can pre-order the items you want.
""Just because you can buy something cheaper somewhere else does not make it the right thing to do.""
The Economics major in me wants to scream at this.
Given the increased purchasing power of the Canadian dollar, the price of most imports will have become much cheaper. For GW not to have adjusted their pricing during this period means that consumers are paying a relatively higher price than they were before, and thus, lose out. I know if I lived in Canada I would be buying only from US stores.
If US stores have a comparative advantage in providing GW products, that is exactly where consumers should buy them. If the FLGS cannot match such prices, it is not "wrong" to buy elsewhere, just more efficient for the consumer. It may hurt the FLGS, but if the FLGS relies on Warhammer to that degree to stay in business, then it has other problems as well. GW Canada needs to realize that their prices are hurting local retailers, and adjust accordingly (or not if the switch to online stores is relatively small). It is not the burden of the consumer to keep a shop in business, it is the burden of the shop to please the consumer.
There is no point in paying $65 for a Hellhound when you can get it for $40 shipped from a US store.
Your economics degree doesn't mean a thing to the struggling small business owner, nor does your economics degree teach you any sense of moralistic business or consumer sense.
You can talk about your degree until you're blue in the face and we all shop at Wal-Mart exclusively, because its the only option left.
Supporting your community is just that - you spend your money within your community and support the businesses that support you.
You are making the concious choice to NOT support the places that provide you places to play, introduce new people to gaming, and foster a community of people with like interests.
Sorry to get so off topic.
I have to agree with xNickBaranx. I'll spend the extra few bucks to get the quality of service that I get from my local store. My local store (in Canada) has cut their prices because of the strength of the Canadian Dollar (they have more buying power.) So, not only do I get a good price on the game supplies I need, but I support the fellow who knows that I am reading the "Horus Heresy" series, orders each new book when he gets the chance, and hands it to me personally when I come into the store. And, although I have to wait, I will wait and order the Gamer's edition from J & J's
""Your economics degree doesn't mean a thing to the struggling small business owner, nor does your economics degree teach you any sense of moralistic business or consumer sense.
You can talk about your degree until you're blue in the face and we all shop at Wal-Mart exclusively, because its the only option left.""
My experience *AS* a business owner may though.
If customers can get the same product elsewhere for %60 of what I charge, you had better damn well believe they will.
That is the problem with GW in Canada. GW products are so horrifically overpriced compared to easily obtainable US ones it is laughable.
Morals have nothing to do with it, I'm not spending 40% more on models just because I like my FLGS.
The impetus to provide for the customer is on the business. Consumers have no obligation to a particular business, if it cannot provide what they demand at a reasonable cost, they can, and will go elsewhere. That is the whole point of an open economy.
Gaming space can be found at other places, and while it is very nice to have a FLGS to play at, its not necessary and if they are that dependent on Warhammer to survive, they have doomed themselves anyway.
I don't mind spending an extra $1 or 2 per kit to support the FLGS, but not an extra $25. I'd rather buy another kit.
There is no moral issue here, despite what you may think. If the local stores price is more than half again as much as I can get it elsewhere, it is up to that business to get the signal I am sending, and adjust prices accordingly.
""You are making the concious choice to NOT support the places that provide you places to play, introduce new people to gaming, and foster a community of people with like interests.""
No, I am making a conscious decision to buy products where it is most efficient so that I have an easier time obtaining what is necessary to play. I am not doing it to "stick it" to the store. I may support the store in other ways by providing terrain or running demos. But if the store becomes hideously expensive to buy at, I'm not going to.
I don't expect you would pay an extra 40-50% for everything just to support a store either, if you do, well, thats your perogative, but I'd rather spend the money on another army or expanding a current one, or simply buying *DIFFERENT* stuff at the FLGS.
Moral on the part of the consumer to keep the store in business do not exist. The store maintains play space as a draw to bring people in, they do not do it just because. If that is insufficient to keep people buying at their store, IT IS THE STORE, not the consumer, that needs to adjust.
While the case looks nice, I'm less than overwhelmed by the plastic counters. If folks need / want a free set of 40K counters to print out for themselves, a zip or rar file can be snagged from...
http://www.ageofstrife.com
There's a link on the top right side of the page that says '40K counters' and the page has preview images of the full set.
The assumption that the consumer has only one responsibility - to buy at the cheapest price possible - is the furthest thing from the truth.
As an example, I could go to Wal-Mart and buy a pair of Nike's for $70 that were manufactured in near slave labor conditions (and wages) within an Export Processing Zone in China, or I can buy a pair of Vegetarian Shoes (that's a brand) from MooShoes for $125 and know that I supported a small business (MooShoes) and an ethical company who produce a completely sweat shop free shoe. Is it worth paying $55 more? In my book, absolutely. Its my responsibility as a consumer to make the ethical choice.
That's actually one of the reasons I gladly hand GW my cash - their plastic and metal figures are made in the UK and the US and are manufactured by people who make a living wage. It genuinely bothers me that their books are outsourced to China, and if they ever shipped all manufacturing there, I'd abandon GW entirely.
Okay, that's my last rant. I'm looking forward to the Gamer's Edition. I'm really curious how deep the Ammo Crate is as well. It would be awesome if it was just deep enough for tanks.
anyone has a link to a good US online store who ships worldwide so a poor european student can exploit the weak us $ ? :)
As a Canadian retailer, I can tell you that GW Canada simply has their head in the sand (or some other dark place). They KNOW it's hurting my business. And because it hurts my business, I outsource my supply away from them, which should be hurting their business, yet they continue to pretend that everything is fine.
I can buy from the Warstore for less than it costs me to buy from GW Canada as a retailer. I can hardly fault my customers for making the Smart consumer choice to buy from the US. Yes, I would prefer their business, and I try to cut my margins as much as possible to bring these customers in the store, but they don't owe me anything. I charge a PROFIT; I'm not in this just because I love gaming, and nor do I expect my customers to ignore simple economic realities.
"It genuinely bothers me that their books are outsourced to China, and if they ever shipped all manufacturing there, I'd abandon GW entirely."
Why? Just because a product is produced out of your home country does not mean that you should stop buying it. Okay, so people lose their jobs when work is outsourced, but if they are not willing to work in the same conditions and for the same pay as others, that's their call. And if workers in the United States weren't so adamant about things like their employers providing full healthcare, without themselves even contributing to it, companies would likely not feel the need to outsource as much. And if you wouldn't buy it because of the workering conditions in places like China, remember this: if they are working o produce the product, then they are working and earning a wage, regardless of conditions. Don't get me wrong, working conditions can often be truly bad, but the workers very likely depend on those wages to survive. And yet you talk about consumer ethics... think about what you are saying!
I am sorry I thought this was a warhammer website.
"And if workers in the United States weren't so adamant about things like their employers providing full healthcare, without themselves even contributing to it, companies would likely not feel the need to outsource as much."
Holy f***.
Britain has public healthcare. Canada has public healthcare. Why can't America? How about, if Americans weren't too busy blowing the crap out of third world countries, they could afford to provide government healthcare, and then companies could worry about other things.
Sad, to say the least.
'Britain has public healthcare. Canada has public healthcare. Why can't America? How about, if Americans weren't too busy blowing the crap out of third world countries, they could afford to provide government healthcare, and then companies could worry about other things."
I completely agree. It should be up to the government to provide FULL, FAIR healthcare, unlike the corrupt, profit-driven mess that is the American medical system.
""The assumption that the consumer has only one responsibility - to buy at the cheapest price possible - is the furthest thing from the truth.""
When it doesn't involve externalities, no its not.
""As an example, I could go to Wal-Mart and buy a pair of Nike's for $70 that were manufactured in near slave labor conditions (and wages) within an Export Processing Zone in China, or I can buy a pair of Vegetarian Shoes (that's a brand) from MooShoes for $125 and know that I supported a small business (MooShoes) and an ethical company who produce a completely sweat shop free shoe. Is it worth paying $55 more? In my book, absolutely. Its my responsibility as a consumer to make the ethical choice.""
You are making several assumptions here.
First you are assuming that just because its from China, that it is made by Slave Labor. This is patently false. While they may have crappy working conditions in some textile plants, in recent years this is disappearing, and outside of Textiles most factory conditions are similar to those you would see anywhere else, even if they require more labor and have older equipment.
Second you are assuming that the consumer cares. If the consumer doesn't care, then there is no issue, and thus no incentive to pay more.
Third, you are assuming the consumer has the ability and willingness to pay to correct the externality. *I* wouldn't pay $75 for a pair of shoes no matter what they are, much less $125 for "eco-friendly fair trade-whatever" shoes. I may be willing to pay $50 instead of $40, but no more.
What you are paying for is assuagement of guilt, nothing more. Most consumers don't have the luxury or willingness to afford this extra cost.
""
That's actually one of the reasons I gladly hand GW my cash - their plastic and metal figures are made in the UK and the US and are manufactured by people who make a living wage. It genuinely bothers me that their books are outsourced to China, and if they ever shipped all manufacturing there, I'd abandon GW entirely.""
Again, you are assuming that just because its made in China, that it is using Slave Labor. THIS IS NOT TRUE, especially outside of Textiles. Furthermore, such industries are vital to developing China and improving working conditions.
Yes working conditions may be terrible for a while, nothing can be done about that in the short term but as time goes on, these improve as the influx of money from exports go towards development. China's standard of living has increased 4 times in the last 20 years. The textile slave labor mills of the early 90's are disappearing rapidly, and anything GW would be producing in China would most likely be no different than the way they are doing in currently in the UK and the US, simply with cheaper labor (and not necessarily exploited labor, just that the PPP allows a lower real salary)
Because providing healthcare to the masses is a handout and we can't have handouts in George W. bush land. Oh to live in a civilized country.
Re: MYR posting http://www.ageofstrife.com
Myrmidon? Is that you lurking around here? Good to see you again.
I can add to your counters with a very cool additional product (but you have to make round versions of your counters):
http://www.aleatools.com/ProductDisplay.aspx
Use their 1" hole punch dealie to punch out kewl artwork (like fly lords logos) and paste them onto the tokens. VE-OLE-E-AH!
RTM
rt_maitreya:
Tha web address does't work.
"Why? Just because a product is produced out of your home country does not mean that you should stop buying it. Okay, so people lose their jobs when work is outsourced, but if they are not willing to work in the same conditions and for the same pay as others, that's their call."
Anonymous - your a moron, just to clear things up. You can't expect someone in Canada/Britain/America to work for the same pay and conditions as someone in China or wherever the hell these things are produced.
If i got payed less than a dollar an hour, or day, i couldn't live in canada/britain/america. so your comment is so far from being relevant it hurts my head to think about it.
We support local manufacturers so we can have jobs and not live on **cking welfare.
at 40 dollars for a pair of shoes you must have some shite shoes.
Nobody's a moron just because they disagree with you. You're espousing a protectionist economic worldview which is perfectly fine, but keep in mind that when you [i]don't[/i] buy goods because they are manufactured elsewhere, you're just hurting someone somewhere else. There is no 'moral' decision here - just the consumer's ability to vote with his or her dollar.
In other news, the collector's edition looks pretty grand but I'd rather drop the extra $40 on minis, honestly.
I feel like the only benefit to the gamers edition is the nifty ammo box. I'm assuming the counters and templates will come with the starter set, and since I'm planning on getting that for the ork minis and digest rulebook, I think I am just going to go with the regular edition this time out.
Who gives a crap?
I mean c'mon.. most people don't even concern themselves how much someone was paid to make said product... as long as it fits their need and budget.. it never crosses most peoples minds...
I thought this was a Warhammer 40k related blog.. Who let the public activists in here? Most people visiting this place care more about news regarding BOLS.. not government health care, out sourcing.. or slave labor.. although they are important topics.. I believe that there are plenty of other sited dedicated to this..
Please don't soil up this great blog with this crap (crap meaning it doesn't belong here)
On another note:
Props to GW on the Bolter Ammo Box... GW should make better counters though..
martyray regarding web addresses:
What can I say? Clicky work fine for me. www.ageofstrife.com for Myrmidon's counters, and http://www.aleatools.com for the plastic-magnetic tokens. Alea does mention that their "new and improved site is now up" which means maybe you tried clicking on it during the one half-hour slot they were updating it!
Ah, who knows. I also pimped Alea to bring the counters to Strategicon in L.A. Memorial Day.
RTM
""at 40 dollars for a pair of shoes you must have some shite shoes.""
You can get $40 shoes that work just fine at many stores, just don't buy Air Jordan's from the trendy mall shoe store. I still wear Hi-Tech and Nevado's boots that are 4-5 years old and cost me $35-40 each.
ha! I wear SAS shoes ($130+ each) because I wear US size 15 super wide :)
I already have one Gamers edition on order, and at least 2 of the starter box.
"I thought this was a Warhammer 40k related blog.. Who let the public activists in here? Most people visiting this place care more about news regarding BOLS.. not government health care, out sourcing.. or slave labor.. although they are important topics.. I believe that there are plenty of other sited dedicated to this."
I understand where you are coming from, but here's some new for you: gamers are very often nerds. Nerds tend to be more aware of the world around them, and therefore often talk about politics and the state of the world. Perhaps it is just a freak phenomenon, but every time that I go to my local hobby store for a couple of games I get stuck into one debate or another....
"Britain has public healthcare. Canada has public healthcare. Why can't America?"
Are you serious?
Because America operates under the principle of Capitalism, not socialism. Some people may be fine with the government stealing money from honest, hard working people, and giving it to people to lazy to find a job. It is not the governments responsibility to provide healthcare for everyone. It is the individual who holds the personal responsibility. By stealing money from the people that actually strive to achieve and work hard, the government is eliminating any incentive people have to do find a job, etc. If people are significantly handicapped, mentally or physically, they should quallify for government support.
Also, the role of the government is to pass laws preventing companies from being corrupt, not to provide the service of the companies.
badgerz
"""Because America operates under the principle of Capitalism, not socialism."""
Your lack of economic understanding is astounding.
Canada, the US and the UK are all hybrid economies. They all have socialist and capitalist aspects. The US is NOT a pure capitalist society. It hasn't been for over a century. If you want the US to be a purely capitalist society, have the Military entirely provided for by private firms, get rid of social security and public road systems and turn them into private enitites. Remove education to for-profit bodies only. Remove restrictions on market interactions and anti-trust legislation.
Etc ad nauseum.
""""Some people may be fine with the government stealing money from honest, hard working people, and giving it to people to lazy to find a job.""""
Dear god, please, if you are going to spout stuff, at least know what you are talking about.
There is a difference between those too lazy to get a job, and those unable to find one. There is a difference between taxation to provide services and government corruption. T
"""It is not the governments responsibility to provide healthcare for everyone. It is the individual who holds the personal responsibility."""
That depends on how healthcare is viewed. If it is seen as a public good, in the same light as education and national defense, then it IS the governments responsibility to provide it. Just about every industrialized nation outside the US has this.
YOU BENEFIT from the people around you NOT DYING. Injured/Dead people don't produce anything. It is then in your interest to provide health care.
Not everyone who needs health care but doesn't have it is a jobless bum. The vast majority are in fact working low/middle-low income families with no prospects of advancement.
"""By stealing money from the people that actually strive to achieve and work hard, the government is eliminating any incentive people have to do find a job, etc. """
Again, please take an economics course, preferably one in public sector economics, before you start talking about things of which you know nothing but merely have a political leaning on. Taxation is not theft, the money is used to provide goods for society as a whole.
What difference is there in the government taxing your income and providing a service, and using yoru income to buy a service in the end? You spend as much money on the service either way, and your net income remains the same.
"""Also, the role of the government is to pass laws preventing companies from being corrupt, not to provide the service of the companies.""""
The role of the government is to provide public goods and services and establish property rights and a system for resolving disputes. If Health Care is seen as a public good, then it is to be provided by the government as such.
Wow
"The US is NOT a pure capitalist society."
You are absolutley correct. I made the mistake of not clarifing what I said, but yes there are many socialist programs in the United States. Not that I am happy about it, but I understand that fact.
"There is a difference between those too lazy to get a job, and those unable to find one."
Jobs are not that difficult to find. Granted, they may be low paying, degrading jobs that no one really wants, but if you work hard enough with the goal of moving upward, eventually you get a better job. That to me is "the American Dream", that people can go from poverty to wealth through a few smart choices and hardwork. Maybe it is naive of me, but I fully believe that people can achieve this dream if they are willing to work hard enough.
"Injured/Dead people don't produce anything."
First of all, the United States is primarly a service based economy, and jobs in textiles and manufacturing are being outsourced to foreign workers. So the premise of not having a worker to "produce" something is slightly farfecthed. In the harshest reality, nearly all of the the people Americans would "benefit" from not dying are already insured. Also, the percentage of ininsured Hispanics is vastly higher than any other ethnic group. This problem is directly related to the issue of illegal immigration as well, which is something I would rather not get started on since I already have my hands full here.
"What difference is there in the government taxing your income and providing a service, and using yoru income to buy a service in the end? You spend as much money on the service either way, and your net income remains the same."
What you failed to address is that the government is not only using my money to pay for a service for me, but also taking additional money to pay for someone else's service. Not only that, but the United States government is notoriously wastefull. So either find a service on my own (or be provided one by my company) which fits my personal needs and desires or I could have the government take my money, pay more than necessary for a plan that they choose, and have some of my money going to pay for someone else. That is how I understand the system to work, and I may be confused. I look at that plan and I say no thanks, I'd rather choose for myself how to spend my money.
"The role of the government is to provide public goods and services and establish property rights and a system for resolving disputes."
The government does not need to "provide public goods", it needs merely to ensure that public goods can be obtained. The government should be responsible for maintaing a strong military, infrastructure, and emsuring the rights of the country's citizens are not violated.
"Great nations are never impoverished by private, though they sometimes are by public prodigality and misconduct. The whole, or almost the whole public revenue, is in most countries employed in maintaining unproductive hands... "
-Adam Smith "The Wealth of Nations"
badgerz
does anyone know if the gamers edition comes with models and the pocket rulebook
""but yes there are many socialist programs in the United States. Not that I am happy about it, but I understand that fact.""
No nation can survive as purely socialist or purely capitalist. In a purely capitalist economy, National Defense would be privatized and provided for profit. In a purely socialist economy, everything is provided by the state. Neither one of these states works very well, and they don't tend to last long.
"""Jobs are not that difficult to find. Granted, they may be low paying, degrading jobs that no one really wants, but if you work hard enough with the goal of moving upward, eventually you get a better job. That to me is "the American Dream", that people can go from poverty to wealth through a few smart choices and hardwork. Maybe it is naive of me, but I fully believe that people can achieve this dream if they are willing to work hard enough."""
I'd love to live in your world.
Yes "A" job may be easy to find. Advancement however is not what you make it out to be. Most programmers at a software firm never make it to management, most guys on an assembly line never do either, Most fry cooks never become franchise owners, most farm workers never own their own farm, most janitors don't end up doing anything else, etc...
Quite simply, "working hard and working long" usually doesn't net you what you want. Sure you may get a raise in your crappy job, but you may never get promoted. Education and personal connections are the keys to advancement, hard work comes after those. Just working hard for 20 years won't get you squat. Unless you have some sort of human capital stock (experience, education, etc.) there will be a ceiling on what you can accomplish in life bar outrageous luck (which does happen, but nowhere near enough to compensate)
And there are just some lines of work where once you enter, you are pretty much stuck, advancement is dim, and benefits are nil.
To be blunt, "the american dream" really is no more than a dream for many people.
"""First of all, the United States is primarly a service based economy, and jobs in textiles and manufacturing are being outsourced to foreign workers. So the premise of not having a worker to "produce" something is slightly farfecthed"""
Can a dead or sick person provide financial analysis, sell a car, debug a program, fix a motor, perform standup, act on a movie set, teach chilredn, perform surgery, restock inventory etc?
No, generally not.
"Production" isn't limited to Factory work. Anything done in response to a demand is "production" whether it be providing entertainment, financial services, or whatever.
"""What you failed to address is that the government is not only using my money to pay for a service for me, but also taking additional money to pay for someone else's service.""'
Yes, but in return other people pay for your service when you draw more than your normal share as well. It also provides for those around you, which provides a positive externality.
Look at it this way. Do you benefit from your children being educated? Yes. Do you benefit from your neighbors children being educated? Yes. Society as a whole is better off if people can read and do basic math. In the same way, public health can be financed with such aims. It's a lot better if your neighbor with the broken leg can get it fixed at the cost of the state instead of getting laid off, and being evicted and then having to rely even more on the state and no longer paying taxes either.
""Not only that, but the United States government is notoriously wastefull.""
And an HMO (which you are paying in to) spending $800,000 to keep a 93 year old alive for an extra 6 weeks instead of paying for 1,000 childrens vaccines contributes to YOU paying a higher premium over time.
The current US private health care system is in FAR worse condition than most other nations, and is by *far* the most inefficient and costly.
While it may take a while to see a doctor in Canada over a relatively minor issue, emergency care is prompt. Here in the US you may get in to see a doctor within a couple hours, but you may not be able to afford the bill or pay for a needed treatment. Ever try and see how many people without insurance get on a transplant list?
"""So either find a service on my own (or be provided one by my company) which fits my personal needs and desires or I could have the government take my money, pay more than necessary for a plan that they choose, and have some of my money going to pay for someone else."""
That varies from person to person, most people can't afford great health insurance and therefore get substandard care or don't go when they may need to. Also, again, you benefit from other people not dying or being sick/injured.
In most nations with public health care, they have it set up so that if you want to buy your own, you can and you get a tax deduction for it to compensate.
"""The government does not need to "provide public goods", it needs merely to ensure that public goods can be obtained. The government should be responsible for maintaing a strong military, infrastructure, and emsuring the rights of the country's citizens are not violated."""
The military is a public good, Infrastructure is a public good, legal systems are public goods.
Education is a public good.
Do you complain about having to pay taxes to support a legal system even if you have never been robbed or harmed in your life? Do you complain about having to pay for the military even if your neighborhood has never been attacked by an outside military? You may need these things one day.
Why complain about keeping people alive and productive even if you don't necessarily need it now. It provides a direct benefit to you and provides an indirect benefit by keeping people alive and useful.
The government provides public goods. That is what it does.
>> "does anyone know if the gamers edition comes with models and the pocket rulebook"
The Gamer's Edition comes with exactly what has already been stated and is pictured in the GW adverts so nicely posted here in this thread:
-The 5th edition 40K rule book
-Two sprues of plastic markers
Price is $90 US.
-The "ammo crate" case
-Green plastic blast templates
buh
Awesome! this conversation has been very enlightening, I never suspected that such a thing could have sprung forth from a simple product announcement. Incredible :)
"Awesome! this conversation has been very enlightening, I never suspected that such a thing could have sprung forth from a simple product announcement. Incredible :)"
Quite.
To be honest, regardless of our differences, I feel that it is good for everyone to exercise the good old opinion once in a while. Even if one comes out of a conversation with an unchanged opinion, at least they can come out with a better understanding of the opinions of the people around them.
And arguing is a good thing. Questioning others' ideas is often a good thing too, if done respectfully. I mean, think about it; if people didn't disagree about anything, nothing would ever change! Arguing has shaped the world in which we live today.
I, personnally, often worry that people don't care; that they are content to simply live their lives in a bubble. To see people arguing about somehing so passionately restores my faith in humanity to some extent, odd as it may sound.
Most of all, it is important to remember that, even if you severely disagree with the people that you are conversing with, odds are that are completely decent people, who do care about the state of the world and the people in it.
-Ted
If you really want to see an argument, start a discussion about changes to vehicle and assault(and related) rules...
seriously i need to see the size of that box because personally that special purity seal edition looks pretty bad ass
that might look better because i just spent 20 bux on the GF9 turn ocunters and tokens...
but seriously someone was saying that america need socialist heathcare are people that better be ready for a huge tax raise
also someone said that we need to stop bombing 3rd world countries...that you/parents voted to do! There is a thing in america..it is kind of big and it is called a vote...beck in 2001 or early 2002 we voted to go into Afghanistan and it passed...there was also an action to invade Iraq and that passed you see politicians are lected by YOU so these people you vote for will make the decisions for you based on the populous..i feel like a history teacher but someone needs to clairify this...so i completly hate people that complain about Bush being a bad president-he has a bad vocabulary but that s no reason to judge anyone especially when people are accusing him of something that you wanted him to do.....wait a minute wasnt there an election 4 years ago???! why didnt you vote for kerry toget him reelected?
Post a Comment