Hi guys,
Here is a quick one. GW has put put several support websites to go along with the 5th Edition launch. There are introduction articles, changes, and perhaps most intriguing a new Design Studio Podcast. This podcast promises to be a irregular series of interviews, that give the player community greater insight to the design studio and what their mindset is as they move from product to product over time. Prety cool.
Design Studio Podcast 1 (Design Philosophy: 40k 5th Edition Rulebook)
5th Edition Design Notes
What's in the Book?
What has Changed?
Armies of the Dark Millenium
Getting Started with Warhammer 40,000
~Definately give that Podcast a listen. Its a very interesting discussion. I'm also all for this newfound openness from the design studio. What do you all think of Allessio's thoughts on 5th?
37 comments:
First!
That looks great, i hope that will be great stuff!!
All of those things have been on the site since Friday... except the podcast, which I'm pretty disappointed is only audio. Would've been nice if they had an in-studio webcam or something.
So why aren't all of the Necron players screaming about 5th edition? (I'm tired of hearing the Eldar players whine about their Falcons btw) Glancing can't kill vehicles, leaving the Necrons with (2) anti-tank weapons for the whole army, ONLY 2!!!!!! I personally don't like the Monolith model, nor do I want to shell out $40-$50 (whatever it costs) for an ugly model. Heavy Destroyers, hmmm don't recall seeing ANY of those @ ANY of the gamesday tourneys that I've been in. After all, who needed them? The whole army could glance tank after alls... Is that GW's way to sell heavy destroyers? By nerfing one of the main reasons for getting the army itself? Unless gauss weapons get 'rending' (which is probably a bit overkill), I figure to see Necrons going the way of the Dark Eldar, i.e.: all but extinct on the gaming table.
-Corey-
@Anon: "I personally don't like the Monolith model, nor do I want to shell out $40-$50 (whatever it costs) for an ugly model."
...Make your own?
I don't personally know much about Necrons, but if it's true they only have a couple anti-tank weapons, then that does honestly suck.
I can't wait to get home this evening and give that podcast a listen. Damn work!
@-Corey-
I really dont see a problem with this. Now you have to take Heavy Destroyers, boohoo. Gauss was stupidly overpowered before, and you can still pop vehicles now. just Immobilize and destroy all its weapons. The next Imm/Weap Destroyed will go up to BOOM.
Crimea River is in Russia.
The podcast is quite interesting, makes a good point that all the rules fall together nicely. Stompy armies get more fights, shooty armies get more shots.
I had to look at the "how to make you army ready for 5th edition articles"
Being an Eldar player I went there first. I was amused. After making a big deal of how good guardians and dire avengers are the 2 pieces of advice amount to:
Buy jetbikes, they're your only way to take objectives and:
Use Eldrad. He might keep you alive long enough to do something.
Note that neither of the Eldar players could come up with a single thing that helped the Eldar, unlike the other armies. I think Allesio has something against us. I can't wait until my opponents marines start auto hitting my falcons against AV10 because Allesio thought that was more "realistic".
Wait, Necrons went from every weapon being an anti-tank weapon to every weapon is an anti-tank weapon that can only glance the tanks. Ridiculous to be complaining when the army was so over-powered before. Glancing still does plenty of damage and vehicles that can't shoot for a turn or the rest of the game or that can't move are a serious problem. Boo-hoo, so every weapon in the Necron army can no longer outright destroy every vehicle with one shot. Please, quit your crying, you won't get any sympathy.
@the Eldar player
I decided to take a look at the "preparing your army for 5th" article. I'd like to point out that Witch Hunters and Daemonhunters aren't listed, nor even mentioned, as an army. You should be happy your army was at least acknowledged.
@cirative
Good point. I hadn't even noticed that. You have my sympathies. Maybe they went with the old addage, "If you can't say anything good..."
I was looking at the Demonhunters codex the other day. Some abilities of theirs look great on paper, but they seem to have big holes in other areas apparently.
the eldar player.
Necrons are no way hurt by 5th. Just now their flayers need a squad of 15+ to target a vehicle, and hopefully a few 6's and hopefully a few more 6's will kill a vehicle a turn. Just not fluke wipeouts anymore
As for making your own Monolith. I did just that. I found an old "twin saucer" Basestar from the old Battlestar Galactica and used the neon green bits to make my Monolith. Yeah it had a bigger footprint on the table, but it really turned heads
It's funny about Witch Hunters and Daemon Hunters not being listed.
For witch hunters, they pretty much got a boost in variable list creations (meaning, no need to always be MEQ). Also, our useless units (Repentia, Arcoflagelents, Penitent Engines) can actually be useful, especially if our Sisters can give them cover saves. Our exorcists isn't really any much scarier as result of pen/glance/destroy isn't much better nor worse.
Daemon Hunters, that's a hard one because a pure grey knight army is still too difficult to pull off. It's even harder to decide if a squad of grey knights would rather run or shoot their awesome stormbolters. The only plus side I see is that they can hurt vehicles real badly...if they could assault and reach a vehicle.
Great to see more open and frequent communication.
GW is finally coming up to speed and giving the kind of responsiveness we've come to expect from computer game developers - they're essentially in the same market for my spare time.
I'm really, really happy...
...erm, where is the Inquisition?
Oh dear :) Win some lose some!
@ Anonymous
"So why aren't all of the Necron players screaming about 5th edition"
Let not your heart be troubled...as a long standing Necron player there is much to be happy about. I understand the immediate shock of not having gaus as powerful as it once was, but here are the possitives. Necrons can 'run' even the C'tan and the tomb spiders :). Shooting is not the only way to take out tanks, wraiths moving as jetbikes S6 hit the rear AV in close combat (boom!). We have some of the best troops for holding objectives in the game WBB rolls being a big factor. The reason why not many people used the heavy destroyers was for the points you could filed regular destroyers for the same or better effect. They will be worth their own now. And let us not forget that the Necrons will be getting a new codex late 2009. Hang in there a little list tweaking and the Necrons are as good as ever (just diffrent).
That was neat to hear Jervis's voice for the first time. I wish though that the Podcast had more depth, the content has mostly been covered before. I think the word "Philosophy" got me too excited.
WH didnt get a mention because they dont need it. i just played my first 5th ed game with them against SM in a thousand point KP match. i wasted em 5-0. all you need is divine guidance and 3 flamers per unit. say bye bye chappy and assault squad. say bye bye to any troop choices they have. i was getting something like 32 hits on a singe squad!
that aside, lets face it guys, the game changes and always will. some will be left behind and others wont. it may take GW some time to get your *insert favorite army here* right, but when they do you, it will be someone else that complains.
And Witch Hunters and Daemon Hunters don't receive a mention in the Armies of the Dark Millennium.
But then I suppose it was to be expected with GW's fondness to outright ignore their very presence. The best example is found in 5th edition rulebook.
Everyone gets a good two to four pages worth of information, Sisters get two paragraphs (with incorrect information at that)
Grey Knights and the =][= in general don't fare any better.
@Anon 8:36
So we don't get a mention, an acknowledgement, a friendly nod towards, all because we happen to have been upped by the new rules.
Then why are Daemons on the list? They certainly have some great game breaking combos.
Dark Eldar? They are still the beardiest army out their in terms of shear numbers of Dark Lances they can carry.
Tau? Their suits are certainly even greater now then before what with their ability to never 'leave' cover.
This isn't a complaint about 'Woe is me, they didn't mention me' but rather they seemingly refuse to acknowledge the =][= presence.
Sisters & Grey Knights are not just another Lost and the Damned or Kroot mercs, a good idea at the time but never anything more then just a fun list to play around with.
They are rather deeply rooted aspects of 40k with a far larger fan base then LatD and Kroot put together.
The Sisters had a 2nd Edition Codex even.
Besides, only Dominion squads can have more then two flamers.
@Kettu
One thing you have to keep in mind, although it was a separate company, Witch Hunters were added to the last Dawn of War expansion. The Grey Knights have more of a cameo in the DoW series, though.
So, they won't be going away anytime soon. GW may "forget" these armies, but I doubt they intentionally leave them out, or intend to phase them.
If they were removed, people would be playing Soulstorm and asking, "Who the hell are the Sisters of Battle, and why aren't they in the tabletop version?"
And basically, Squats were removed easily due to no serious ties to them - aside from mentions in codices and rule books.
Dark Eldar, Sisters of Battle, and Grey Knights have deeper roots, with books and video games based on them.
This is the main reason why we won't see them removed anytime soon.
ASSAULT ON BLACK REACH PRE-ORDER:
The new 40K starter set is now available for pre-order in US GW stores as of today, July 14. The cost is $60 US.
- Jervis Johnston said none of the current armies are are going away, at the time I thought he was referring to the DE.
- At Games Day Canada he said the DH/WH forces of the Inquisition will be done at the end of 5th!
- 5th ed. rules TOME doesn't give any background on either WH nor DH
- Apocalypse all but ignores the Inquisition.
- Chaos Daemon special characters all over, including recently to be released Angron.
What do all these lil' bits of info say? Well clearly the DH and WH armies are not going away but we will (supposedly) have to wait awhile for a well written and competitive 'Dex. As much as I am @!$$ed at the disrespect at the ignorance shown our lil lead friends the story teller in me thinks the Dark Millennium is possibly a Dark Ages reference and the rise of Chaos isn't being stemmed until the end of 5th and we have an enlightenment in 6th ed. If my interpretation is close it still sucks we take a beating for another ... millennia. At least it will seem that long! :\
I can't get those links to work :< it just takes me to the GW front (select your country) page. ANd then I can find them. Bugger.
Wow, I'm having a field day reading these design noites. Some things I've noticed-
-"We've taken out as much abstraction as we can"
Let's see how much abstraction is still there in the game:
- models (representations of soldiers)
- statlines
- area terrain
-Squadmates not blocking LOS
-weapons ranges (12" pistol, sure...)
- casualty removal (both shooting and close combat)
- vehicle damage
- the whole turn structure (moving, shooting, assaulting in sequence etc)
- cover saves
- and probably a whole lot more I've missed.
I think there's still a hell of a lot of abstraction left in the game. In fact, it seems that everything short of true-LOS is abstract in osme way or another. Guess which elelemnt of the game doesn't fit in with all this abstraction?
-"After all, 40k is a game about playing with your lovingly painted models, not gaming with counters." Well, it seems the models people have put the most effort into, ie characters on scenic bases, are being shelved due to the rules, and ironically, many cheesy players are actually making models that try as much as possible to resemble counters (prone,close to the ground, periscopes for the really cheesy).
-"In this verison of 40k, Line of Sight is real."
Because that obviously captures the reality of soldiers ducking, going to ground, posing on their ever-present Rubble-Pile of Command, etc.
-"All models that are locked in combat before the fight is resolved can participate."
Oh joy, there goes killzones. Removing tactical options is obviously the way to go. Hey, initiative was just made redundant too...
"This means that the tactical casualty removal that plagues the 4th edition no longer works" Yep, those tactics were definitely a plague, better eradicate them wherever you find them.
-Combat resolution had too much maths? Jesus H. Christ, if you can't do simple maths like addition, subtraction, and maybe division for outnumbering, how the hell can you be expected to put together an army list?
- On vehicles: "...the aim has been to make them simpler to use." Oh great, I can just see where this 'simpler' is heading.......
- "Infantry attacking a vehicle, just like in real life, are very dangerous as they drop grenades through hatches or fire shots directly into vision slits. So we've made that more deadly, meaning that when assaulting vehicles you now always use the vehicles rear armour."
Sorry, if infantry want to jump a tank and start cranking open hatches, they should maneouvre behind it, where those hatches are." I can't see how infantry charging a Leman Russ are suddenly able to climb onto the back of it and start opening up the hatches.
- No comment was given as to why defensive weapons got reduced to S4. I'm guessing this rule has universally pissed off everyone, and Im really interested in why GW made the change.
-"Dedicated Transports can now carry any squad."
I guess they're not really dedicated at all then?
- Only troops are scoring. Fair enough as a rule, the reasoning behind it makes sense, even if its not something I would have done. So why the hell can a terminator from a Deathwing army control an objective, while his Ultramarine counterpart cannot?
- "Taking an army consisting entirely of Troops choices is not a game-winning formula either. Many playtesters tried this and soon found that their armies lacked punch."
They must have playtested exclusively with space marines, as the 180-boyz Ork Mob seems set to be the new powergamer army.
In addition to all of this, I count the words simpler, easier, and streamlined (read: dumbed down)six times in that article. I'm not sure that's a good thing....
Well, thats my rant after reading the design notes.
I have to agree with Hobo Hunter. I especially felt the same way about the new "true line of sight" rules, defensive weapons being S4 or less, and the hitting vehicle's rear-armor in close combat stuff.
I know GW has is a business and has product to sell, but the articles on how each army will be affected by the new rules were the most hopelessly optimistic tripe I've heard in a long while.
Yes, there are many advantages to most armies in the new system. Yes, I'm looking forward to the new rules. But there will be some re-tuning 'nerfing' of some abilities. Why can't we admit that? I'm much more likely to get behind it if we're being given full and balanced information. This 1984 'Ministry of Truth' proaganda piece is worse than useless - it has actually gotten me offside.
My favorite bit of the design notes:
"... to make this work we assume gamers will play in a friendly way. This game requires you to play with a gracious, cooperative spirit. You have to make the game work for you, your opponent and the story you're creating. It is a move away from the ultra-competitive style that has become more prevalent in 40K over the recent years."
This "philosophy of fun" is how 40K has always been for me and a select few people I know. Hopefully there will be alot more people who see it this way as 5th Edition takes hold.
@ gm rex nihilo
No reference in the background of the 5th Ed tome?
I guess the kick-ace Inquisitor on page 97 doesn't count.
Or the references on pages 106-107, 120-121, 124-125, or the double page spread of Inquisition miniatures on 196-197, or the Sisters fighting in the Cathedral on 240, or the entire page of stats on page 293, or the artwork scattered throughout the rules.
Yep, I guess they have been completely abandoned and I should throw out my army ; )
Please. Grow up and enjoy your cool toy soldier hobby, leave the whining to topics like rising gas prices.
If you could eliminate all the whining here from WH, DH and Necron players, you might be able to have a discussion of the game design notes as a whole.
I have a pile of Daemon Hunter models I haven't even gotten to yet as far as painting, but I will not be getting rid of them nor will I be complaining about their current treatment by GW. Did all the DH and WH players forget that because these armies are often used with SM and IG in some combo that all of those armies' Apocalypse datasheets and other support are at their disposal? Please stop crying before the salt in your tears eats the paint off your models.
Now, does anyone have any thoughts on the 5th Edition design notes and the game as a whole that don't involve crying about their personal army?
With regards to the comments about hitting rear armour in CC....
As far as i can tell, this doesn't mean they automatically make it to the rear of the vehicle, it just means that up-close, you'd be able to see seams, hinges and exploit weakness' made when previous shots hit but failed to penetrate. I'm not best pleased by this as i have two companies of Leman Russ myself, but i can see the 'logic' of it.
Hello there, could someone tell me where the pod cast is on the sit, I can't find it - or could someone post the link?
thanks
Gino
Has anyone else noticed that as of the release of 5TH edition, the following armies can no longer assault from their Land Raiders/Land Raider Crusaders: Space Marines, Black Templars, Space Wolves, Daemon Hunters, and Witch Hunters?
Only DA, BA, and Choas Space Marines have the Assault vehicle special rule for LR/LRCs. The FAQs don't address this either! :0
If this is in the main rule book, then I missed it.
The Assault Vehicle Special rule may be addressed in the upcoming Marine Codex, i'm going to wait until then before threatening the Games Developers with obscene violence
I think it is ironic that the Black Templars, inventors of the Land Raider Crusader, can no longer assault from their custom modified assault vehicle! :(
PODCAST LINK
There's a link to the page with the podcast link prominently featured on the GW website Home Page at the moment. Here's a link directly to the design studio podcast page:
http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/content/article.jsp?aId=9400003
hey think about IG leman russ battle tank now with the new rules defens wapeons strenght 4 and under ,........... the heavy bolter is strenght 5 sow now i can fire only 1 heavy bolter on cruising speed and not all three. way change that rule?????????????????????
greetingz rodney
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