Codex Space Marine rumors brought to the community by Warseer's: brothercaptains
Hi guys,
After two days of Macharian Crusade its back to it. I have a set of accumulated items here so lets dive right in.
GW 5th Edition Podcast: Part 2
It looks like the Design Studio is really on the podcast bandwagon. Here is the the second podcast, following up on their initial 5th edition one. This one deals with the studio's goals for the background section of the hardcover.
Upcoming Release Dates
We've been hearing that the following items are coming up fast upon us:
-Space Marine Spearhead $244, September 20
-Space Marine Codex $25, October 4
-Space Marine Drop Pod $30, October 4
Codex Space Marine Latest (Rumors)
-Apothecaries grant Feel No Pain to their squad and any attached IC
-Storm Shields again cited as granting 3+ Invulnerable vs all attacks (shooting and assault)
-Sternguard Veterans may all take combi-weapons in addition to their special ammo types
-Thunderfire Cannon has 3 different fire modes all of which use four of the small-blast markers
-Shrike grants his army Fleet
-Lysander grants his army Combat Tactics or Stubborn
~Once again its great to see the design studio open up its views to the community. I know that a lot of grousing over some of the 5th edition changes went away down here in Austin once folks got to hear Allessio explain WHY he made some of the changes. As for the minis, I'm eyeing those drop-pods! Finally, I'm pretty excited over the possibilities of those Sternguard Veterans. Its nice to see some rules to finally make Veteran Tacticals a force to be reckoned with. Now I can understand how dangerous a Chapter's 1st company can be, even without Terminator suits.
101 comments:
RELEASE DATE NEWS:
The release dates I've been posting here on BOLS recently, now shown at the top of this page, come directly from the new release board in my local Battle Bunker. They are not rumors or leaked information, they are formally announced release dates from GW, so you can pretty well count on these unless GW is forced to make a change at the last minute. Here they are again:
-Space Marine Spearhead $244, September 20
-Space Marine Codex $25, October 4
-Space Marine Drop Pod $30, October 4
I'm already looking forward to all of this great new Space Marine product!
A GW takes a good Idea from one army and gives it to their favorite, I saw nothing wrong with how Apothecaries worked in the earlier editions (Ignore 1 failed armor save per shooting phase) So why do they have to take a major Ork advantage for themselves?
Id be nice to have some armies having the same situations and then getting differing effects
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Well, again we have this mess of stupidity regarding the use of Feel No Pain. When you had to buy it for Khorne units, you took that risk and paid the points for it.
Now it looks like every single army is going to have a power squad with that rule, and it's a lazy way to replace the Narthecium's ability to recover the one extra wound. Emperor forbid that they allow an unsaved wound within six inches to be recovered.
Not like it's going to make me ditch my apothecary, but it's just irritating that rather than fixing a rather iffy rule, they give it to the Space Marines to justify it.
This new SM codex is looking to be absolutely ridiculous. 3+ Inv save against all attacks for assault termi's?! All bolt weapons twin linked just for taking X HQ or all melta and flame weapons TL for Y HQ?
Voluntary CC fallback *and* ATSKNF!?
And they justify this *how*? Especially after this still much groused about Chaos codex?
Also on another note, while listening to the design podcast made some of the 5th ed changes make sense, listening to Allesio's reasoning behind the defensive weapons change simply said to me "I don't quite fully understand the role of the tank, nor its relationship to infantry heavy weapons alternatives."
Mmmmmm Stern guards.... combi meltas and with apothecary and drop pod...
who needs terminators when you have these bad boys :)
It looks like, using whatever methodology, they are making space marines as they should be, rock hard, great equipment and elite. good.
I second that 3+ Invuln sentiment... What are the armies like IG or Tau supposed to use against such termies? I'm already forced to use lasplas and Demolishers because of all the MEQ armies, so now they let these termies ignore 2/3 of wounds caused by most powerfull weapons I can field, and it costs them how many points?!?
The guy who came up with this is probably funny in the head...
@nurglespuss
Having above average toughness with power armor and great basic guns wasn't enough already? They were already rock hard, elite, and had great equipment. It's not as if Space Marines weren't perfectly competitive already.
These rumours are more than just making space marines "elite". They look overpowered in the extreme without significant price increases to most of these units and a general reduction in model count across the board.
Yeah, Fleet for my Raven Guard! Hooray! I hope Shrike keep his special retinue, I wouldn´t know what to do with all these Lightning Claw wielding Maniacs ;)
Hey guys...just relax. It's just rumours...
You don't konw how many are true and what they will cost if they will be in the new codex.
@anon 3:38
Sure, SM are great for beginners but for true competitive tourneys they are not. The reson for this is that they are good all-rounders but lack the skills to do one thing very good. Like the genestealers CC ability or the necrons 3+ save +wbb + excelent infantry weapons and don't get me started on the eldar exploits like the tri-falcon or prisms.
So no MC's, no uber ability like the Monoliths ignore modifiers, no ultra fast transports like the Eldars/Dark eldars, no uber ability to choose the lowest result out of 2d6 on the damage chart like the falcons, no uber specialization in any skill but you still have to pay a lot for everything.
It's quite hard to play SM against experienced players.
Also with the lack of TRUE CC specialists for SM the fact that The shooting is already underpowered when comparing to CCand coupled with the new Cover rules when virtually all models will have 4+ cover save, the SM will need all the help they can get to perform adequatly.
Hope you understand what i mean. English is not my native language :)
I keep wondering just how many of these power upgrades (Shields, Apothecaries, new vehicles, new Techmarine gear) will backfilter to the Dark Angels....
@Anonymous 4:42
As a Dark Angel player, I'd have to guess at 'none'
Does that work for you? No? Me Neither, but hey, we've still got some pretty cool stuff, and are still better off than the Wolves, at least for now...
Hmmm....
- With the FNP active, it seems like Apothecaries are about to
a) have a chance (and only a chance, not an auto-save) to heal more wounds than the current "1 wound per turn", and
b) lose their "distance healing", which does make sense, but which means (Blood Angel's) Carbulo is going to be the only (or one of the few?) Marine on the table able to throw 6" healing darts into other squads in the future.
- Given that in 5th, 4+ saves are all over the place, a 3+ SS save makes a bit of sense. Only a bit, mind you...
Seems like "death by volume of fire" weapons are now necessary...
...
And here's to hoping some of these changes backfilter to both Blood Angels (my army), and Dark Angels (which admittedly, NEEDs some things going for them)
I really hope that most of these rumors are not true as they are presented here. Everything combined, they would set SM on a completely different power level than any other army (even with slight points increases).
Plus, the new codex would make Dark Angels, Blood Angels and CSM really look dumb in comparison.
@ aditza
Actually, SM see plenty of play in tournaments (at least in Germany) and some of them finish high, too.
Well I'm glad we finally got a date on that SM codex.
I'm itching to get my hands on that Assault on Black Reach box.
The marines from there will be the starting point for my SM army.
Good to see while i'm painting those guys up I wont have to wait to long until the new Codex hits.
@ Azathoth:
Heard some of the rumors concerning the guard? Okay, it´s very (I mean VERY!) early, but they are also on a much higher level then now, like "ratlings choose who they hit in a squad" and "IG tanks can fire their main weapon on the move"...
I think we witness the return of Herohammer, except that every trooper is a hero now...
Wishful thinking: I hope they release the drop pods in a pack of 3 at a nice reduced price like they did when the new Eldar War Walkers came out a while back. It was for a limited time, and sold quite quickly.
On the subject of Terminators with 3+ Invunerable saves in shooting and assaulting from using Storm Shields, if it's true... awesome. With the high strength CC attacks, the ability to run and good staying power these units should see some more use against tanks and those pesky Crisis suits who are usually found plasma-ing Termies to death.
Now just hope you can't attach an apothecary that grants feel no pain to a unit of CC termies: that would be stupid :P
CSM's won't look dumb at all. I know sooo many marine players who would love to use defilers, obliterators, have fearless troops with +1 I/A/T/inv save, monstrous creatures who can fly and move other units 2d6, the list goes on...
However I can completey see your point regarding the chapter specific codexes. I have a Templar army as well as a chaos army and while Templars will retain certain things (2 assault cannons in a terminator squad) will they benefit from the awesome new drop pod rule for example? Something the fluff says they excel at using?
I had a good look at the new Apocalypse book, specifically at the First Company datasheet.
Am I the only one seeing a rather -large- number of power-weapons and lightning claws in those Vanguard squads?
And if they can have jump packs as the buzz seems to indicate, I am certainly going to convert up a few squads.
When you say large, what you mean is all but one, right?
Rumors for the new marine dex make me sad.
If I want to field a slightly traited army, I have to field a broken special character?
And the missing chapter master stats (Check 5th ed rules, Chaplins, and Libriains maintain the 2 would statline, captains gain the three wound line, so you can't choose.) Also is a downer.
No-ones mentioned it yet, but I thought I'd just remind people that FNP only works against AP3 and worse weapons. So it's not quite as silly as last edition.
What? Plasma that melts terminators, can't feel anything...
It will however, make Guardsmen cry inside. As if they didn't have enough trouble shooting a marine, the marines now get back up.
(Oh yes, and WWB is being replaced with FNP in the new nec dex. Interesting spamming of one rule huh?)
@ desaster
Thanks for the information, I didn't hear any of these rumors, they are news to me. However they should be taken even more carefully than the SM rumors as the IG Codex is even farther on the horizon.
After initial shock, I thought the new codex line (starting with the Eldar codex) was quite good and reasonably balanced. Now what I hear about SM seems to be quite a leap away from reasonable towards ridiculous.
@ gravidian
Excuse me if I was unclear. While CSM have several special units, all in all their units overlap with SM more than any other army. That is why I included them into my little list. It would just be dumb if the options and special rules of a SM tactical or terminator squad suddenly completely outshine their equivalents in a DA, BA or CSM army.
i hope deathwing gets some of the sm cheese. dw really sucks now
@ admiral halsey
Regarding the Necrons WWB: That was a joke right? Or is this actual information your found on the web? Funny thing is, only a few days ago, I thought that Feel no Pain would be a nice and clean substitute for WWB.
Regarding the 'spamming' of FNP: I don't think that this is a problem. It is a >universal< special rule after all. Therefore, it is only natural to use it instead of some quirky one-of-a-kind rule.
@ Azathoth:
There is a bunch of rumours circulating in the german community, and some of them are rather strange (like "Thudd guns are in the list"). I don´t think this here is the right place to write them down, or? But if you´re interested, I can post them.
@ Desaster
No thank you. We should'nt gum up a SM discussion with IG. Plus, the Imps would not stand a chance against the Emperor's Finest. ;)
So, they had problems with the CSM legion rules, and yet traits survive (after a fashion) in the form of nifty Combat Tactics? Wow. Talk about unfair
We didn't even get characters which allow you to take terminators or possessed or something as troops. Eldar, Dark Angels, Orks, and soon (probably) Marines will get that *twitch* *twitch*
Yep it looks like Thudd guns will be in the rules - except they will be called Thunderfire - notice the rumor about 3 modes of fire ussing 4 small templates? Sounds like a Thudd gun to me.
@ Gravidian
You know marine players who would love to use defilers, obliterators, have fearless troops with +1 I/A/T/inv save, monstrous creatures who can fly and move other units 2d6 etc etc...then tell those people to choose a different or second army. What's wrong with having some army which have special creatures, abilities, troops choices that other army do not have? Makes each army unique and fun to play...do you really want every army to be the exact same? Should SM have an advantage and have one of everything while other armies do not? The reason they don't is they are powerful enough already and have access to more weapons, IC, and a bunch of other things that other armies do not have! I personally have 5k necrons, 8k nids and 5k greay knights/sisters of battle so I can play an assortment of things. So I could have just bought one army to equal all of these three? No, that would be dumb.
It was a reliable rumor. I wouldn't stake your pension on it. But I'd put somewhere in the region of £50 on that being the case. Alas I can't give the source.
[qoute]July 23, 2008 1:17 AM
Especially after this still much groused about Chaos codex?[/qoute]
I some times wonder if people that read the chaos codex and complain are reading the same book as me.
Heh, last edition they gave rending to everyone, now FnP...
Ok. What I am sad about CSM is not that we sux or we are dumb now - nope we are OK, but hey, we were supposed to be cool angry guys with deamonic powers, weapons and deamons but... Well ok, np now we are SM with CCW. Cool. Ghm... =)
I am waiting for IG with FnP, Stubborn rule and AP3 lasguns =)
I'm pretty excited about the new Marine Codex coming out. I'm sure they'll change some stuff and I won't understand why, but maybe there'll be a podcast to explain it all!
I played chaos for a while, and I can see where people who are disappointed are coming from, though I disagree with them. It's not that their new codex is bad per se, but the old Chaos codex had like 70 ways of building an army with a thousand options, and most of them were good. I remember thinking at the time that no other army had this level of choice or power in the same package. I would have been ecstatic if all following codexes had been given the same amount of powerful choices, but that being said I am also fine with them being brought into line with other codices. GW could have gone either way, but they made their choice and it's the face of the game now. Chaos is not appreciably more or less customizable than others now. That ability to match 50,000 options in an army was super-cool, but I always felt it was a little unfair to the other armies.
is it just me or do poeple actually like how the codex is laid out? 4th was great...everything for one certain troop type was right there...now I have to look in 4 different places for one fricken choice...it's terrible!
You know im only a beginner.
But i dont believe that t hey are just gonna buff up space marines and leave everything crap to the other teams.
Just give em time and stop complaining.
Its kinda getting annoying.
I only play space marines cuz i love the tech marine, and then i got into the iron hands so i can have him as my hq!
ok this is a little ridiculous. 3+ invlun? my friend said just run em over with tanks but still. Games workshop just wants to have their main space marine armies pimped out.
and feelnopain? DONT THEY EVEN KNO WHAT A narthecium/reductor does? it extracts their geneseedthing! it doesnt enject them with combat drugs!!
Wait a minute... $25 for the SM codex? What the hell?
To look @ this from a different angle...
All the SM rumors make me wonder if its like the speculation prior to the USA invading Iraq. A multitude of TV commentators, retired generals, etc. were putting so many ideas/scenarios/objectives out there, that the truth was told but completely lost in the flood of information. There was no way to tell fact from fiction & no one really had any inkling as to what the military was going to do till they did it.
Sounds a hell of a lot like the forthcoming SM codex if you ask me.
-Corey-
does GW even now what the narthecium/reductor does? it extracts their geneseed! it doesnt give them combat drugs! i play orks, and that is freaken annoying to know that GW just wants to pimp out their spacemarine armies.
"But i dont believe that t hey are just gonna buff up space marines and leave everything crap to the other teams.
Just give em time and stop complaining."
You know, I would be fine with that if GW released books on a regular basis.
But they dont. Im not really excited about waiting 5 FRICKING YEARS for a new book, and I doubt anyone else is either.
^ by regular basis, I actually meant "more rapidly" ^
Actually, I have a question about Sternguard Vets. Are they going to be plastic or metal? If they're metal, would anyone be willing to trade me my beakie one for one of the others? :)
@ $25 for the SM codex? What the hell?
The SM Codex is considerably thicker than the existing books at about 144 pages.
@ is it just me or do people actually like how the codex is laid out?
I will concur with complaints about this. Since the latest Eldar book was released and every Codex since I find myself having to constantly flip back and forth between sections to find everything I need to know about how a certain troop type works or how some item of equipment or power that they have works. It is time-consuming and awkward in the extreme. I love the content of the recent Codex books, but the layout is most inconvenient.
As for the issue of Space Marines suddenly becoming much more powerful and exciting to play than the recent Codex rules releases for other armies, don't panic and bring a towel. There will be plenty of time to whine or celebrate after everyone knows for sure what is in the book rather than grumbling based on speculation and rumor.
About the Reductor/Narthecium - only the reductor is for removing geneseed, the Narthecium is a super healing rig. Its designed to slice open even a spacemarines chestplate (the bone structure not the armor) then carryout battlefield surgery at extremely high speeds. Mentions in the fiction involve DA opening up an Initiate like a pig poking around and patching up the wound to reattaching fingers and such lost to sword blows. I can easily see it granting feel no pain as it can fix the wound and pump the marine full of painkillers.
@ I have a question about Sternguard Vets. Are they going to be plastic or metal?
The Veteran miniatures are metal.
I just want my damn chaos cult troops back...not the pseudo cult troops dredge we have now...
Where is the grenade-Launcher combi-boltgun model?
is it in?
@evernevermore
Sure I could see FNP as well, if the squad wasn't allowed to move and the apothecary and wounded models weren't allowed to be doing anything as they are undergoing surgery. Everything else that has FNP is generally either hopped up on a ton of drugs, or is a diseased bulk tainted by the warp that literally may not feel huge wounds and reknits itself as it fights.
I know someone will think I'm crazy, but as an IG player I'm pleased to see SM Terminators getting the chance to have a 3+ invulnerable storm shield. I want them to be scary instead of just another squad that eats 14 plasma shots and turns to vapor.
@jwolf
thats the point of massed plasma fire. Also, Assault termi's are generally overkill against Imperial Guard, they are just asking to get shot at.
I for one don't see a need for a unit that will take on average 36 lasgun shots (about as many as a 35man platoon) to inflict a single casualty to become shrug off plasma gun fire and lascannons 2/3rds of the time.
even in 2nd Ed with a 3+sv on 2d6, they were only saving 1/3rd of the time against lascannon, I don't see why they need such a boost now, especially with all the other goodies that SM are getting unless assault marines go up to 55 or 60pts each.
As a DA player, it is very disheartening that our '5th edition-ready' codex looks worse with every round of rumors that are come out. Particularly when it comes to our supposedly kick-ass Deathwing having a far inferior version of the storm shield. This is the 1st Chapter - one of the most storied chapters in the history of the Imperium - and we are supposed to accept that they are inferior to the vanilla marine chapters?
@ anonymus 12:18
May I direct your attention to the Ork Nobz with Painboy then.
The Painboy is basically the same as an Apothecary, both doing surgery in the heat of battle, and they don´t have any movement restrictions, even stranger, a Nob biker squad with FnP... .
Just as a casual reminder: Necron Wraiths also have a 3+ Invuln save and no one screams about the threat they present. Just like Wraiths, Termies with Storm Shields will be both expensive and limited to small squads. Unlike Wraiths, Terminators won't be able to Turbo boost across the field and ignore terrain. It will still take them a while to get to grips with anything and, if they Deep Strike, they'll still be standing for a turn or hoping for a lucky Run roll to avoid the torrent of fire that will be coming their way. Stop panicking.
@guyledouche
To be fair, our Deathwing can be taken as troops which, as we all know, is HUGELY important in 5th edition. Not to mention we can deepstrike half of them in the first turn.
As much as I love these Marine rumours...
...I'm once again left feeling that the Chaos Space Marines are left with the short end of the stick. I mean, contrast to all the neat stuff that the Loyalists are getting, the Traitors...got even less.
Just a reminder, in 2nd edition, the storm shield did give you an invunerable save against shooting as well as close combat. So I think thats fair, although i do see it more as portable cover (sort of riot shield thing) so i reckon a 4+ invunerable save would be fair.
As with a few other rumours with regards the space marines though, i hope they backdate all the other codexes. otherwise it'll leave vanilla marines with a huge advantage. over other space marine chapters
@jackwraith
Assault Termi's with a 3+ inv will still have a 2+ armor save, in addition to thunderhammers.
Wraiths are fast and have a 3+ inv, but don't ignore any saves and can't inflict Instant Death on multi-wound T4 units or penetrate rear armor on a baneblade.
Assault Terminators can also Deep Strike and have ATSKNF and will get whatever the new "Combat Tactics" rule is.
@ Wraith Comment:
Well, don't Wraiths not have normal armour saves? Plus, they're not exactly the most effective units *cough cough*
@ Admiral Halsey
Everyone of you are incorrect about the Feel No Pain rule. If you look at the 5th edition codex closely, if you are not allow an armour save (like AP3 weapons on regular Space Marines) at all, then Feel No Pain does not apply.
In order to have Feel No Pain, you must roll armour save first, then Feel No Pain if your save has failed. That means plasma guns are still just as effective.
I'm buying some space marines so I can play "go go Power Rangers" too! Oh,I mean so I can play Warhammer 40k. And not with pussies like my Grey Knights! No, I'm getting a real army!
Phil
@ Anon 5:28AM
Yes,I can completely see your point...heaven forbid a 62 pt. Tau crisis suit (25 base + 20 plasma rifle + 12 missile pod + 5 multi-tracker = 62) is required to effectively take down a 40 pt. terminator...assuming he fails his invul. save that is...
@dj-of-e
Feel No Pain is only negated by close combat attacks that allow no armor save, or ranged attacks that would allow no armor save such as AP2 or AP1 attacks.
Just because the AP ignore the 3+ save doesn't meant it ignore armor, 2+ armor would still get its save.
Feel No Pain is therefore only negated by Ap1 and Ap2 shooting attacks, not just because your armor save was negated by an AP that would allow some units an armor save.
I realize that Termies have 2+ armor save in addition to the shields. However, Terminators also don't get back up. And everyone is whining about plasma and other weapons that can now be avoided on a 3+. If that's truly the case, then the 2+ armor save is irrelevant. And I'm saying again that squad of 5 wounds with 3+I is not as big of a threat as people make it out to be, especially if they cost 55 points each or whatever the price will be for the shields (if not more because Hammers are required, as well.)
And Wraiths are a spectacular unit if you know how to use them...
@jackwraith
so far we have seen no info on pts increases for assault terminators.
Currently they are 40pts. If they were 55 they'd be fine with the 3+i save, but given that basic Chaos termi's in a squad of 5 pay 7pts per model for a 4+i save with no powerfist (meaning they would be 47pts with a powerfist and 4+i for a 5man squad, so they would still have a worse invul save and no thunderhammer effect against tanks or infantry compared with the supposed new assault termi's) I'd say they'd have to be about 55pts, and we have heard nothing concerning possible cost increases.
Bullshit!
3+ invul save is whats needed for the assaulttermies with hammer and shield to be worth 40 points, their performance via deepstrike is terrible. either they are shot to bits or get spammed with attacks, provided you deploy them in the hardest parts of the enemy army. if not they wont get anywhere in time and wont have something appropriate to kill.
Are you seriously claiming that a unit with a 2+/3+ save, with 2 attacks base and 3 on the charge with S8 powerfists that cause tanks to be shaken even if they don't cause damage and cause unwounded enemies to strike at I1 in the next round of close combat is *only* worth 40 points?
Seriously?
Really?
A Tzeentch Terminator (no, they don't get AP3 bolters, only the Troops guys do) is about 44pts (at best, assuming a 10man squad to defray the cost 47 for a 5man squad, and 51 for a 3man squad) with a powerfist (lacking the thunderhammer abilities) and 2+/4+ (and it can *lose* the 4+ if the Icon Bearer dies, very common in 5th) and can be broken and fall off the board or sweeping advanced since it lacks ATSKNF, and doesn't have the new "Combat Tactics" rule that Space Marines will be getting.
Either you are a blatantly spiteful powergamer, or have no idea how to use thunderhammer assault terminators, because at 40pts each they *should not* be getting a 3+ inv against all attacks.
Watch the language, guys.
@Anonymous re: Thunderhammers and Storm Shields
Here's something you have to understand about Thunderhammers... While 5th Ed has made them more valuable since vehicles are a little harder to hurt/kill, they are not worth their cost.
A model that is wounded but not killed by it fights at I1 next assault phase which means that ability is only useful against multiwound T5+ models. Any T4 model would be instakilled and T5+ with one wound would be outright killed. That can be accomplished with a powerfist as easily as a Thunderhammer.
A vehicle is Crew Shaken in addition to any other effects. Now, even if you don't read that to mean that you have to have an effect in the first place to also get a Crew Shaken, a glance gave a 1 in 6 chance of destroying the vehicle and a penetrate gave 50/50 chance of destroying the vehicle. Those are the same chances you had with a Powerfist.
If you take a Termie Squads, you have range weapons and powerfists. If you take Termie Assault squads with Thunderhammers, you have a weapon that is effectively little better than a Powerfist, no range ability and no greater save vs range which is where anyone even remotely sane will try to keep you unless they have assault specialists who will go first (and such without Powerfists will).
Thunderhammers aren't worth it compared to Powerfists with ranged weapons or lightning claws. Thunderhammers for non Terminators aren't worth it because why spend 30 points when you can get a powerfist for 15? Characters have only a 5 point cost difference, but for a sarge, that 15 pts can buy another Powerfist for someone else.
So, yes, I think it's more than alright for Thunderhammer Termies to get a better save for 40 points. However, to justify it, you have to take the Storm Shield option away from most other places. It should be for Termie armored models only.
Anyone notice that Lysander allows "Combat Tactics"? Does that mean it isn't a thing that all SM will get in new codex or is this a typo?
"Anyone notice that Lysander allows "Combat Tactics"? Does that mean it isn't a thing that all SM will get in new codex or is this a typo?"
Each Chapter has their own.
As far as the 'rumours' go, the book was at the UK Studio open day.
@Atreides
5th edition has a new vehicle damage chart, you should check it out.
Does anyone know what the space marine spearhead will contain?
I could see allowing the Thunderhammer termi's getting their 4+sv against shooting in addition to CC, however a 3+ against both in addition to the normal 2+ without a significant increase in cost to at least 50-55pts (look at what Chaos termnators pay for a 4+ invulnerable save that can be removed by killing the icon dude and it gives you a decent picture)
Staying at 40, they should not get a 3+inv save against both shooting and CC. 4+ against both would be fine, but 3+ is too much in addition to the amazing goodies that SM's are already getting like a new LR with flamers, amazing vets, a new army wide special rule that is in addition to And They Shall Know No Fear, and bolt pistols and grenades throughout the army.
Be reasonable. Assault Terminators in no way deserve a 3+invulnerable save against all attacks for their current cost, nor do they really need it.
@ Anonymous about Feel No Pain
Do me a favor and read page 75 of the 5th edition Rulebook. Hell, I've even talked to a redshirt about it.
If the author allows me, I'll post the entire description of Feel No Pain in 5th edition.
"Neither can it be used against wounds from AP1 and AP2 weapons, power weapons and any other wound against which no armour save can ever be taken."
So if I take a Battlecannon at regular power armour space marines, do they still get their Feel No Pain? No, because the AP3 denies that Armour Save of 3+.
Now I understand your point of view, but this can be misread any ways.
"Just as a casual reminder: Necron Wraiths also have a 3+ Invuln save and no one screams about the threat they present."
Yea, but Wraiths don't have a 2+ regular save and the ability (yet) to teleport anywhere on the board. Also, it's possible that assault terminators will also be able to get FNP.
IF 3+inv for Storm Shields is true, I hope that GW give storm shields a VERY narrow arc of protection against shooting attacks like it was in second edition. Even a 180 degree arc of protection against shooting chosen by the owning player at the start of the term (for the whole squad) would be fair. That way, at least there would be opportunities for faster troops to outmaneuver the terminators and attack from the rear/side.
One last thing. Unless the terminator squads count as troops it really does not make much difference if the terminator squads have a 2+ inv. save, as only troops count as scoring units.
Truthfully, I am torn on the 3+ inv. save. I think a 4+ save (total) is fair.
@dj-of-e
the exact wording is "any wound from which no armor save can ever be taken".
It does not reference the *models* armor save, rather that the shot allows *any* armor save (i.e. an S5 AP3 shot would allow a model to take its FNP, but an S8 AP3 or S1 Ap2 shot would not allow FNP)
Every weapon, ability, and rule in the FNP description is *only* things that allow no armor saves whatsoever (rending 6's, powerfists, Perils of the Warp, etc), even for Terminators and other 2+sv units.
the description *does not* say that the model must be able to take its armor save, rather that the wound must not allow *any* armor save no matter what the save is to bypass FNP. A unit with a 4+sv would get its FNP against a heavy bolter, *but not* against a plasma gun.
Otherwise, what the hell purpose would a Mad Doc serve in an Orc army for anything other than Meganobz and bikes?
Furthermore, in your example with the Plague Marines, the Plague Marines don't get their FNP because the hit is double their base toughness (thus inflicting Instant Death!) and not because the shot is AP3.
Also, Redshirts aren't exactly the most knowledgeable people, half the ones I've met still get the 3rd and 4th ed rules for winning assaults wrong.
"One last thing. Unless the terminator squads count as troops it really does not make much difference if the terminator squads have a 2+ inv. save, as only troops count as scoring units."
Are you serious?
All these SM rumors make this Nid player very sad. :'( I face three SM players regularly and the waiting for all armies to get upgraded will be too long.
Winning a battle with my poor troop choices is already an uphill struggle, once these SM get this boost it's going to be even more so. Guess GW just wants me to play Nidzilla going for wipeout.
@ anon 7:30
dj-of-e was right with how the rule is written. From what I am reading you are manipulating the rules to your advantage. You can't leave out words at your whim.
It is "any other wound against which no armor save can ever be taken".
If there is no armor save to be taken then FNP can't be taken. Only unsaved wounds can get FNP.
A battle cannon shot that hits will deny the 3+ armor save for the marine thus no FNP. Do you have an invul save instead? NO, please remove the models.
with the new focus on 5th edition being on "real" fighting and not on abstraction (i.e. true line of sight)
i don't really see how the 3+ invulnerable save can be justified, looking at the actual model, the shield barely covers the torso, not 2-3rds of the model. I'm not complaining either way, however some consistency would be nice.
As for those who are deathwing players, JJ said at the baltimore games day that all new SM rules applied to all other chapters. so deathwing can take 3+i storm shields.
finally, @ whoever claimed that it did not matter what the save was for terminators because they were not troops. I must disagree with you on that point. Terminators can still contest objectives, just like other units. the fact that they can deep strike onto an objective with much higher survival rate and take out most of the units occupying it . before , each unit of terminators had a different niche to fill. tlc termies took on large units and units that were toughness 4 or 5. standard termies were upgradeable to different styles from troop killing to tank killing, all at range. it was the job of Thunder hammer termies to kill monstrous creatures and walkers. the 4+ invulnerable kept them alive in combat, while the thunderhammer is ideal for taking out either unit stated above.
Deep strike has always been a very risky maneuver. if you land a single unit of terminators behind enemy lines unsupported it should be killed the turn it lands. giving them the 3+ invulnerable can protect the unit from loads of plasma weapons or demolisher cannons (my weapon of choice)
not to sound pessimistic, but the way trends are going, 6 edition space marines are shaping up to all have plasma guns, melta bombs, fnp, rending and a 2+ save for 12 points.
have fun playing any other army!
-eddie
I AM POSITIVE THAT APOTHECARIES WILL BE AN HQ CHOICE..a lil birdy at GW told me....they are independant charachters
also
termies with 3+invunes will be like 75 ppm
chaos termies are 35ppm
stop complaining they are getting rid of traits i will tell you that right now
RENDING PONY Apocalypse Datasheet
Have you seen this facetious Space Marine datasheet for Apocalypse? it is hilarious!
Go to...
http://fromthewarp.blogspot.com/2008/07/apocalypse-datasheet-rending-pony.html
@anon 9:16
in the last few incarnations of the sm book, thunderhammer terminators have been the same price as normal terminators. in you comparison you give the base cost of a chaos terminator with power weapon versus the cost of a standard terminator plus the cost of a thunderhammer from the armory. the base cost of a terminator is 40 points. are you telling us that a thunderhammer and a 3+i save, plus atsknf and combat tactics is worth 5 points? the point of those complaining is that, without any significant points increase, the thunderhammer terminator is too good.
-eddie
"i don't really see how the 3+ invulnerable save can be justified, looking at the actual model, the shield barely covers the torso, not 2-3rds of the model."
there's a shield generator inside, the shield itself isn't made of invul-nium
This is my favorite source for reading after a long hard day at work.
When I read these comments I can't stop laughing. Every new codex brings rumors, and rumors bring out the crying. My nephews would watch Thomas the Tank when they were younger, and whenever the train cars would get worried Thomas would tell them "wait and see." So to all of you out there losing sleep over the new Space Marine Codex let us remember the wisdom of Thomas and "wait and see."
"termies with 3+invunes will be like 75 ppm"
then good-bye assault termies!
oh, and while they don't have ATSKNF, chaos termie with fist is 40 pts. but with ld 10 and a load of more options. don't forget the 40 pt marine termie doesn't even have a fist.
3+i might sound over-powered for 40 pts, but then again that 40 pts. has hardly been confirmed
@ bigred
what is a rending pony
sorry, i meant brasscorpion. my b.
@ what is a rending pony?
It is death incarnate to all armies that oppose the Space Marines. You have to see it to believe it!
My son and I were both laughing out loud at this hilarious Datasheet for Apocalypse.
Follow the link to see the most devastating of Space Marine magical weapons, the Rending Pony...
http://fromthewarp.blogspot.com/2008/07/apocalypse-datasheet-rending-pony.html
"One last thing. Unless the terminator squads count as troops it really does not make much difference if the terminator squads even have a 2+ inv. save, as only troops count as scoring units."
What I meant was with the new emphasis on troops, GW can make terminators straight up 2+ inv. and so long as the points scale up with those additions, it still boils down to that it's just a 5 man squad. Massed bolter fire can still take terminators down.
On a side note, Tzeench's terminators have a 2+/4+ save, and if the rumors of thunder hammer terminators costing upward 75 points, then you could in theory field almost double the amount of Tzeench terminators with 2+/4+.
Truthfully, Thunder Hammer terminators SHOULD be utterly badass. I have no problem with the 3+ save, so long as the points cost scales up with Storm Shield's apparent 3+ inv. save.
I actually hope that the Thunder Hammer itself gets a boost. I would have much rather had a boost to the Hammer, than a 3+ save.
@ Anonymous about Feel No Pain
I apologize, you are correct. I've been thinking all day about Feel No Pain and its wording. It's annoying so I list up every possible unit that has feel no pain and how they correspond to it.
I remember Chaos Plaguebearers have Feel No Pain and they don't even have armour at all. So what you're saying is right.
However, on the plus side, a BattleCannon can still deny a squad of "Power Armour" Space Marines their Feel No Pain provided by the rumoured Apothecary on the basis that a Battle Cannon is an S8 and inflicts instant kill.
Are the new termies worth 40 points?
Let me compare it with IG: 40 points buy me a Junior Officer plus 4 guardsmen. 4 flashlights, 1 laspistol & CCW on the officer. T3, A5, W1, Ld8...
Do I have to continue?
I think I said this on another thread. I am a Black Templars player. We can equip our entire assault squad with storm shields. I am already planing on doing one entire squad that way.
@ I am a Black Templars player. We can equip our entire assault squad with storm shields. I am already planing on doing one entire squad that way.
Why would you do that? The 3+ save for Storm Shields in the new Space Marine Codex will NOT apply to Marines that have their own rules in their own Codex. Dark Angels, Black Templars and Blood Angels will have the saving throw for Storm Shields specified in their own respective Codex, not the one in the new SM Codex.
About the Templars and their storm shields; The way GW's been going lately i'd say that if an item of equipment is upgraded the newest rules apply for all codexes (ie the DH+WH landraiders have machine spirt)
For the FNP debate; my interpratation is that only AP1+2 (plus all the auto ignore armour stuff like power weapons, rending, etc.) ignore FNP.
The wording isn't, if that individual squad isn't allowed its armour save... but closer to if no (type of) armour could EVER save. I take the 'ever' to be ever in the whole gaming universe.
Nobz in 'eavy armour and a painboy won't get an armour save against heavy bolter, autocannons, ect, but I feel they do have FNP, because there are saves that could stop it (ie, any form of 3+ save). AP 2 weapons can NEVER be saved against, because a 1+ save never existed.
It also make sense in light of plaugbearers, that have no armour save. Hit by a boltgun, then make your 5+ and FNP. Hit by a lascannon, just make your 5+. Hit by a psycannon that allows for no invuln? Then take your FNP (since psycannons allow an srmour save).
Buy hey, thats just my two cents.
Stop getting your panties in a bunch and just wait for the codex to come out! Make an argument for or against the changes once you actually know what they are. Crying about rumors isn't going to accomplish anything and is a complete waste of time. Wail until you have some hard facts before you whine about imbalances.
Ready...steady...go get your knickers in a bunch. Most of this is true.
Actually, hold the panty bunching as this sounds much worse than it is when posted out of context, just like the 5th edition rules did when posted in tiny snippets without context and with some inaccurate details.
Wait until late September, then enjoy.
<<4+ if the Icon Bearer dies, very common in 5th>>
Sorry, but that makes absolutley no sense at all. The Icon is there simply to allow the trasportatio of daemons, and to give easier recognition for what M.O.C. the squad has, removal of the Icon should have no other adverse effects, than not being able to summon daemons.
I personally like the idea of the icons.
You have to remember that the new Chaos book isn't about the legions anymore, it's mostly about marines that turn traitor.
The normal troop choice traitors didn't follow a primarch into hell 10,000 years ago, they haven't even taken the long road to damnnation like berserkers or plaugemarines; they're just superhuman pirates.
If you just want an icon for daemons, you can (and its cheap); but to gain the power of one of the dark gods they need a focal point.
And really, if you take a full 20 man unit, your paying like 1-2 points per guy for the icon and need to take a real pounding before he'll be forced to be removed.
""Sorry, but that makes absolutley no sense at all. The Icon is there simply to allow the trasportatio of daemons, and to give easier recognition for what M.O.C. the squad has, removal of the Icon should have no other adverse effects, than not being able to summon daemons.""
Have you read the current Chaos Codex?
The Icon system replaced the old Marks of Chaos. Now, you take an Icon for each god or an Icon of Glory (old Undivided)
Now the Icon still allows for daemon summoning and acts as a teleport homer, but if its gone, the squad loses all of its benefits, including whatever bonus it gave.
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