Rumors brought to the community by Bolter and Chainsword's: turelhim vampire
Hi folks,
I hope you all had a good holiday weekend. Lets right to it. A raftload of new rumors broke this weekend regarding an Independant Characters in the upcoming marine codex, and various other changes to weapons and special powers. Here we go:
Special Characters
Vulkan Estan: He is the ex-4th Salamander Company Captain and is a kind of wandering champion. He has almost Inquisition-like leverage over the Salamander Chapter, as his task is to seek out and recover nine holy relics made by Vulkan before he disappeared. If all nine are recovered, it is said Vulkan will return. Estan has recovered the following three and uses them:
- Salamander Hide Cloak,
- Gauntlet which counts as a Heavy Flamer and allows re-rolls to wound.
- Spear of Vulkan is a S6 master crafted power weapon.
Estan allows any and all Salamanders in the army to replace their Combat Tactics special rule with a Salamanders version; they get Master Crafted Thunder Hammers for free. All Melta/flamer weapons in the army, no matter their source, count as twin linked – also for free.
13 special characters: in the codex. White Scars character confirmed. There is no model as yet for him or Vulkan Estan. The special characters are designed to be taken by any chapter using "counts as" rules.
General Codex Info
Storm Shields: now grant a 3+ Invulnerable Save versus shooting and assault.
Combat Tactics: special rule allow marines to voluntarily pass or fail any fall back or sweeping advance tests.
Bike Commanders: allow bike squads as troops.
Tactical squads: can have any number of marines from 5 to 10, but can only have special/heavy weapons if you take a full 10 man squad. They can be split into combat squads during deployment. To make up for the "must have 10 for special/heavies" rule flamers, missile launchers, multi-meltas and heavy bolters are now FREE! You only pay points to take the rest of the weapon options.
Drop pod Assault: Half the drop pods deploy on turn 1. This half have "deployment beacons" that allow the rest (who are held as reserve) to come in more accurately. Tactical squads may choose to deploy as combat squads AFTER they land.
Scouts: in all their forms (including mounted in a Landspeeder Storm) may infiltrate in one of two ways: infiltrate normally or they can come in as reserves from ANY table edge and get to use their free "scout" move when they arrive. Scouts are still troops
Dreadnought Options: Standard, Venerable, and Ironclad with each being an elite choice.
- Venerables are back to WS/BS 5.
- Ironclads have 13/13/10 armour and can take twin DCCW, Hurricane bolter, twin linked heavy flamer, and some others It also has a rule which (possibly a weapon option) called the Seismic Hammer which counts as a thunder hammer and allows difficult terrain tests to be re-roll as the Ironclad batters terrain out of the way.
- Dreads weapons options: Assault Cannon, Multi Melta, linked Heavy Bolters, linked Heavy Flamers, linked las cannon, linked autocannon, plasma cannon, DCCW, Missile Launcher, and maybe more. The linked autocannon can be purchased for BOTH arms, and possibly some others options as well.
Vanguard Veterans: are similar but are combat-heavy and can have jump packs as an option. They may be further upgraded to Honour Guard if you take a Company Master.
Combi-Grenade Launchers: may be taken by special characters and scouts. They are the same as they used to be but are now rapid fire weapons
Land Raider Crusader is now cheaper but does not include the multi-melta; this option may now be purchased as a pintle mounted weapon for ALL land raiders.
Land Raider Redeemer flame cannons are S:6 AP:3 but are not Inferno Cannons; the template must touch the weapon.
Power of the Machine Spirit now allows each weapon on a Land Raider to fire at a separate target.
~Wow, the Salamander's go from getting no love to getting ALL the love! Its a good time to be one of the sons of Vulkan. I'm also liking the changes to Storm Shields. That change should make assault termys a more viable option compared to the standard squads. As usual folks, take a very large dose of Caveat Emptors with this batch, as some of this stuff seems to good to be true. On the other hand, some of it is in line with this stuff.
101 comments:
Wow, and here I thought I'd only be removing one of the two flamers from my 5-man squad. I guess it'll be entirely made up of bolters now. Lame. Everything else is just kind of meh, since my army is a complete 2000pts as-is. I don't care about the units, weapons or gear changes in the codex as much as I do the points changes.
I think this sounds pretty awesome, I might just use that Salamander guy's rules with my chapter and call him something else.
Thi smakes me feel better about the new codex.
Well, that simply said Marines will become a power army or even competitive one, but 3+ Invulnerable for SHOOTING from SS is a bit too much. I mean, when Iron Halo is still a 4+......
PotMS is OPed if without BS reducion, no matter the types.
ANY edges for Infiltrating Scouts? I think we better leave this for SW but not vanilla Marines.
Actually, you know what? I don't believe this rumor. The new starter set distinctly shows 2 tactical squads, one with a missile launcher and the other with a flamer. If the starter set is to be released the same month as the new codex, it would be in compliance with the new rules.
To quote:
"Blogger Cirative said...
Actually, you know what? I don't believe this rumor. The new starter set distinctly shows 2 tactical squads, one with a missile launcher and the other with a flamer. If the starter set is to be released the same month as the new codex, it would be in compliance with the new rules."
Actually the starter set shows two combat squads - you take 10 marines, then a flamer, then a missile launcher, then split into 2 combat squads, one with flamey and the other with ML. Kinda simple really ;)
agreeing with Scott...
defiantly going to have that salamander painted a nice shade of ultra blue ;)
some of these rules are insanely awesome, even im starting to think we might be getting slightly overpowered...
Should see my blood angels loving friend's face drop when he saw all this :P
That Salli-Character is a beast; his profile and his special rules are plain awesome. The new rules for Combatshields will make Lightning Claws obsolete; the free weapon options are kinda strange and hard to justify; and changing the Combat Squad rule that way makes it pretty obsolete.
IMHO some of that stuff is way out of balance. Though I play Salamander-successor, and would love to have all that stuff, I better hope that most of these rumors are not true.
and would LOVE to have all
mmmMMMMmmmm I think my Dark Angels are going to "count as" regular SMs now....
Just remember good people, GW Giveth with one but Taketh away with the other....
I do find it hard to believe the PotMS one though, unelss the mention oversimplifies its actual usage.
@Anon 1:55am
Hm, I see your point. But still, forcing 5-9 man squads to only have bolters is a silly idea.
Well, as a Blood Angels' player my jaw hangs loose. :)
I like the idea that the new character models can also be used in other chapters; I might incorporate one as a "normal" company captain.
I'm happy for the Vanilla Marines for these exciting changes and I'll continue to play with my 2007 PDF Codex, but slowly I get the impression that my Blood Angels are overcharged pointswise. Free heavy and special weapons in tactical squats? Not bad, not bad...
I heard Lysander will turn all Bolters and Boltpistols in the army to "count-as-twin-linked". Can anyone confirm this?
Maybe we then see a lot of "Count-as"-Vulkan/"Count-as"-Lysander - armies of twin-linked goodness?
I have a big problem with no spec weapon in a 5 man squad, It goes against the fluff and makes no sense to me. It smacks of nerfing in order to compensate for some smashing new rule.
Also, getting a jacked up superhero character is not the same as a chapter getting "love." (Just as making up a Huron Blackheart did nothing special for the Red Corsairs.)
blimey, thats a interesting set of rumours
i think ill hold fire in converting up some veterans or anything really for my Ultramarines untill the new dex comes out!
if this codex is overpowered i still look forward to beating it with my Eldar/ Chaos, will make a victory more satisfying :D
I dunno what everyone is going on about, most of these rumors speak to making the army more flexible.
Some powergamer stuff, but honestly, marines should be ludicrously powerful (they just have to remember to jack the points cost to match).
And the stromshields thing is balanced just b/c of the limits on Stormshields - assault termies and heroes, basically. Assault termis need the help (badly). And only certain types of character builds would ever take a stormshield over an Iron Halo, and they were taking it anyway (the carnifex-hammer captain build for instance).
What?! My tactical squads are forced to have *just* BS/WS4, sv3+, S4AP5 weapons, and can get a free flamer, missile, etc.?!
That's just nerfing!
Back in the real world, however, I think these new rules are quite...ambitious. I suppose that in order to balance these features (assuming they're real and GW actually does some balancing), then either:
a) Marines will not cost LOTS
b) These special characters will cost WHOLE LOTS
If these are true, I think GW has finally gotten their point across: They want me to play Marines
*looks sadly at 3rd-ed-era IG and WitchHunters* :(
Some of it sounds a little over the top, but once you start playing with it, things might seem different. I'll reserve any harsh judgment for now. That's if any/all of it's true anyway!
I meant to say "Marines will *now* cost LOTS" Ooops
I don't think its overpowered, as a lot of these "crazy" rules are on fairly expensive elite units which are often expensive, few in number, and less useful than other units (troops) in 5th edition rules. Alot of it is needed, as the elites section of the SM book has tended to be rather lackluster in the last few editions.
- The 3++ stormshield might only be available to assault terminators and maybe vanguard squads. IC's didn't get them in either the DA and BA books.
- the ironclad dread is ok. He has higher armor, but rather short-ranged weapons.
- the varios veteran squads seem rather good, but will likely be very expensive
My question is on the Sallie character. Does "free master crafted thunder hammers" mean that if a unit takes a thunder hammer, it gets the master crafted upgrade for free?
Those of your saying that 5-9 man squads cant take special weapons are wrong. it will be like the current chaos marine codex, where a squad up to 9 man can take a special weapon. and if they get a 10th, they can take another special or heavy weapon.
so much for my razorback squads,if the 10 man rule is true.it would be better if under 10 you were allowed the option of one sw or hw.
BLESS THE HOLY EMPEROR!!!
This is freakingly AWESOME!
This coupled with the incoming IG dose ... OME (Oh MY EMPEROR) I am OVERWHeLMED!
FOR THE IMPERIUM!!!
The problem is, while I have no problem for Storm Shields being able to block ranged fire, Iron Halo/Rosarius as rare items for a chapter is just a 4+ Invulnerable. Giving SS (which is obviously more common than either of them) the ability to absorb fire BETTER than those 2 is pretty......absurd.
As long as Ironclads won't become Venerable AND having a decently high cost, I don't have problem with that.
And Scouts are surely becoming mainstay units for a Marines army, especially against IG/Tau since they're going to assault them from BEHIND instead of teh avoidable sides.
What about DA and BA scouts?
Are they now troops?
Remember, though, that the Iron Halo allows you to get an extra attack for wielding two weapons, and if the dark/blood angel codicies are any indication, they will be free.
Love that new Land Raider Crusader That multi-melta has little use in most case and going from without at lower cost is a BIG welcome... now if only they make that Linked-Autocannon to Linked Heavy Bolter adjustable...
~ Quote
"Hm, I see your point. But still, forcing 5-9 man squads to only have bolters is a silly idea."
I think the whole idea is that only in 10 man then you can have BOTH heavy and special...
Otherwise, you may only have 1...
I don't believe the idea of a 3+ invun storm shield (looks stupid when you look at DA, BA and BT's) or the Free heavy bolters of sorts (again far too much)However the rest sound great.
Now I really want to see what the Fly Lords will do for an update to the Pre Heresy codex - as some of these changes look great!
In the context of the DA and BA codex, I'm curious what the points costs will look like in relation to new marine codex. Also, I'm not 100% sure on this but I think DA Vets can take a storm shield. If that was true and new storm shield rules carried over to DA codex I'll be modeling up some new vets for sure.
Does everyone realize how many of these changes go against the changes made to Chaos? After this book is released it won't be only in the fiction that Chaos has a burning hatred of Imperial Marines.
Some of these changes are so broken it's not funny. A cheaper land raider without a gun that wouldn't be able to fire in 5th ed. anyways?
C'mon GW, we all know you love marines but give me a break.
>> "mmmMMMMmmmm I think my Dark Angels are going to "count as" regular SMs now...."
This all sounds great, maybe a little too great as it is so far beyond anything in other recent Codices, including the Dark Angels Space Marines book.
If all this is true, it may do bad things to the frequency with which other armies, even other Space Marine armies like DA and BA, appear in games.
Why the hell would you play any of the other armies? How much do Tau pay for Shield Generators? Or Markerlight? Or Target Locks? These rumors seem to be giving Marines a lot of the things that made other armies special, and for cheap.
OMG!!!!! Loving it!!! Enemies of Man start your trembling!!!!
These rumors seem horribly over-powered. Either that, or they'll be pricey. Maybe SM will go to DA prices, but with these better stats?
That'd be cool, i guess.
Any word on the rumor of the return of the lascannon & twin plasma gun razorback? I still have all of the parts for that turret in my bitz box.
-Corey-
@ Why the hell would you play any of the other armies?
That is a really good question. There isn't another army book in print that sounds half as much fun as the new Space Marine Codex going by these rumours.
I think the stormshield save thing vs shooting is just not right.
Scouts able to move on any side and SCOUT MOVE? um, no....
FREE heavy weapons to 10 man squads? That would toally wreck Dark Angels, Chaos and Blood Angel armies.
Sorry, alot of this sounds like utter crap to me and if GW is putting this in, then they are undoing everything they put in motion changing to 5th.
FREE Multi-Meltas?! I can understand free flamers and missile launchers if they force you take ten Marines to get them, but free MULTI-MELTAS?!
Anyway, I hope to see something similar in the upcoming IG Codex. I wouldn't mind having free missile launchers...
I hate the idea of special characters in general games. Why should some small skirmish involving like 50-100 guys a side always need a named character.
"Hi, I am in charge of 1000 Elite killing machines, but I will always need to be on hand for any fight or you lose out on all these special abilities."
Giving bonus to a single unit or units with a model within 12 inches is fine, but blanket upgrade across the whole army does not seem right.
As a note I essentially only play Space Marines so I am not just complaining because I am not getting mine.
I can't understand free anything unless the base points cost of the troopers in the squad compensates for it. Otherwise, game balance is gone as is the desire of players to play any army other than Space Marines.
Rules and balance discussions aside, I would really love to see the return of a Primarch. Although it would horribly destroy the balance if he was included into any game (including Apocalypse), it would really send the fluff department screaming with the possibilities.
Alas, GW's current approach does not allow this to happen. Ah well :)
As usual whenever we get a boatlod of "crazy" rumors and people start running around with their hair on fire...
Remember we don't have any point values yet. None of this stuff is game breaking if it's costed out right.
Mmm these read like a vanilla/salli players wishlist for the most part, but they should deffinately be taken with the requist grain of salt.
And id be willing to bet that anything that is absolutely fantastic will be have a points cost to make up for it, and rumours are still just rumours.
Wow, my 4th Ed. Traits army is starting to look very vanilla. First I lose my traits - Purity Above All & Trust Your Battle Brothers (unless I've missed another rumor).
Now my Razorback Squad with a Meltagun is pretty useless. With no heavy/special in a 6 man squad, what use are Razorbacks now except for command squads and maybe veterans?
I really think a lot of these changes (if true of course) have to do with balancing and upgrading the marines as they are now. It seems to me that every new codex that comes out gets a little bit of a buff. Just look ar Orks... they are a super tough 2000pt army, even when just thrown together.
As for possible rule changes, you have to figure... storm shields on regular vet troops giving 3+I is kinda ridiculous. But when you add a storm shield to a terminator who already has a 5+I, thats a whole new layer of armor ON TOP of terminator armor. Thats a LOT of layers of armor! I'm surprised they didn't make it 2+I...
And as for free SW and HW, the points costs of Marines tends to be much higher than other races anyway, so whats 15pts here or there for free. Thats like a free point and a half per model in a ten man sqd, not much of buff if you ask me. Especially since the points cost will be going up anyway with all marines coming equiped with krak and frag grenades. Just my $0.02...
wow i just saw someone complaining in this thread. seriously? wtffffffff
Great... icon of slaanesh< combat tactics.
Why the hell would you let something auto pass/fail something that is so valuble as a sweeping advance or fall back?
if they still have something comparable to ATSKNF, it means that those I6 models that only have that as their main cc advantage are totally screwed.
Great, so my daemonettes are fearless, but now if they cause the enemy to fall back, they will end up being stuck out in the open if its about to change to the enemies turn, or will be stuck in close combat when i want them to charge something else and might have had that advantage.
again, making space marines the best army so more people buy them.
What is with people assuming squads less then 10 get no special or heavy weapons. The wording of that rule looks exactly like the Chaos Marine one that allows a special weapon period and a heavy once you crack 10.
Heh,...
Still want to "fix" the RTTs and GTs now?
Marines play a separate game altogether.
All this complaining about the "restriction" on special weapons is getting silly. Just take a ten man squad, split it into two combat squads, and put the special weapon guy in a razorback if you want to. What's the problem?
I think if they do the free special / heavy weapon thing it will be to reward the fluffy 10 man squads rather than force everyone to do it.
Lets hope all of this is costed fairly, it looks like Marines will have a LOT of cool options to take. It makes the current Chaos codex that much sadder.
As per the scounts coming in on any table edge....this is the new 5th ed rule regarding infiltrators....all infiltrators will have this ability.....Why play any other army? Easy if you are in this game souly to win all the time, then this is NOT the game for you, one should pick an army based on alot of factors but kicking everyone elses teath in should not be one of them. I played Lost and the Damned (swapped over to the IG 'dex after they killed it) and have never one a game with them...but they were fun as hell! It always confounds me as to why so many get angry whenever the Marines get some goodies...we have armies out there that can out shoot them with oodles of marine killer weapons (ap3). We have armies that can out assault them, we have armies that can rise again from the dead...all have their strengths and weakness'. There will be many ways to defeat the new marines no army is unbeatable.
I am agreeing with chaosgerbil I love the idea of being able to take 3 10 man squads with a lascannon and a plasma and split them into combat squads adn 3 with heavy bolters and meltas and split them into combat squads. Then I can have 30 guys hanging back with the 6 big guns and 30 other guys running forward(or mounted in Rhinos) with their special weapons alongside my cc units.
I don't need 6 or 8 man squads anymore for the over half strength counts as scoring since they changed the rules and now any troops choice counts as "scoring" in the scenarios where that matters. This way I have 12 "scoring" units and the rest of them can still contest objectives.
Also in response to anonymous who agreed with me earlier: I am going to paint my Salamander guy a nice Necron Abyss blue with gold shoulder pads just like everyone else in my army. I do hope he is wearing his helmet since I think the whole power armor without a helmet thing is kind of stupid.
I just hope GW is understanding about the counts as thing with the heroes for tournies and that most other players are going to be cool with it.
Hmm, a 2+ armor and a 3+ invulnerable save. I hope that when they come out with the next Necron codex they either allow more pariahs, or more units to have warscythes.
I've seen it mentioned up there already, but this seems like a complete nerf to the Blood Angels, I mean, we get our Death Company, and Furious Charge *do we still have that?*
<< Doesn't seem too special anymore.
back to painting my snot-green marines!
I'm going to wait until I get a hold of the codex.
Hmmm, sounds interesting...just may have to start up a White Scars army.
I'm thinking that these are bunk. They're just too good to be true.
If they are true, however...well, welcome to 5th Edition, The Marine Edition! Hope everyone else is having fun while I play 2nd Edition to remember what a smidge of balance is like. :P
I don't think that SS will be a +3 Inv. save. It would seem logical to keep the storm sheild the same except allow it versus CC and shooting instead of just close combat.
I also think that independant characters in smaller games are fine... I remember when you could only play a special character with your opponenets permission or only at a certain points level.
HQ's augmenting the army seems pretty cool. The Orks have several guys who are in squads as upgrades and have guys who augment the army.
As far as the Marines being too powerful in 5th... the codex isn't even out yet. By the time it reaches us we will be two months into playing 5th with the old codex and will be "commenting" how the new codex is versus the old.
For two months think of an entire space marine army thathas infiltrate, can be held in reserve, and then appear on the enemy flanks.
later, Tim
" Mike said...
Does everyone realize how many of these changes go against the changes made to Chaos? After this book is released it won't be only in the fiction that Chaos has a burning hatred of Imperial Marines."
But CSMs get a CC weapon, a bolt pistol and a bolter, allowing all standard CSMs +1 CC attack, compared to a "free" missile launcher" this seems reasonably fair to me...
the LandRaider "Crusader" is cheaper, but probably only by the amount a multimelta will cost...
GW fanboy I may be but I honestly can't see what anyone is complaining about...
Some of these border on psychosis.
Perhaps what was in the Codex was lost in translation after being related inaccurately to someone in the first place, then repeated with even less accuracy to others and the web, because these rumors can't possibly be entirely correct. It's a clear violation of Space Corps directives!
Storm Shields would have to be like 20 points each to make it even close to being balanced for the 3+ inv. save.
A 4+ inv. save against cc and shooting would be the more realistic option. However, with the new ability to screen troops with a 4+ cover save, a 4+ inv. save although still good, is less useful.
Remember, in 2nd edition the SS gave a save against shooting against shots from a relatively narrow front arc. I could possibly see this being reintroduced with the new 3+ rules as it would be more fair.
Still a 3+ inv. save in CC? Yipes... Even Dark Eldar Wyches would not be able to counteract that (as it stands right now).
Well it sure feels that DA is the only one shafted here w/ these rumors. BA haven't gotten their proper codex yet and BT might get an update sometimes in the future (even though not near future). DA just got their update and it'll be full development circle before they got their next codex. Sigh.....
I do however have something to say about some of the comments made here. I kept reading DA IC got free Iron Halo. We don't... we pay for it. It's part of the cost for the dude. Same w/ our Tacts. It's slightly higher than normal marines due to the fact that we have to pay for the Vet. Sergeant.
I assume that this will what gonna happen to normal marine. They will charge you for that flamer and missile launcher, included in the base cost. They prob gonna up the cost of Tact Marines too due to the ATSKNF and Combat Tactic, but this is just my wistful thinking.
ok this pisses me off!!
i play blood angels and if these rumours are true then the only uniqe thing bout them is now dc and every one in the army able to have a jump pack.
also i agree it stabs a knife into the back of the chaos dex and gives it a twist followed by a swift kick in the nuts.
i meen come on the +1 cc attack they got was meant to be a ballance for ATSKNF now its like GW is taking a leak on the soon to be corpse that is 40k. i swear they dont give a damn about the game even the writers.
sorry for the rant just REALLY!! psiied off
Gentlemen, gentlemen a little perspective please... don't start slashing up just yet, this is the FIRST codex of the new edition, of course its going to be a little out of whack with the others but in time these things tend to even out, and even if they don't so what?
If you're only pleasure in this hobby comes from a match between perfectly balanced teams then can I suggest you take up a new hobby like CHESS for instance! And if it only comes from the sense of control you exert over your plastic toy soldiers or the thrill of victory you so desperately crave and feel that this new change will be to that detriment then perhaps chess with a dose of therapy...
Rather than choking my precious interwebs with your tiresome bleating get a sense of perspective, for those of you threatening to leave the hobby over something you read in a rumours column leave, I'm sure we will miss your sunny disposition I bet you are a real hoot to play against...
Well...depending on the unit cost, I'm curious about this whole so-called free special/heavy weapons deal. I suspect that we're going to see squad costs upped since while it's 'free', it's also comparable to your 5-man DA squad including a Sergeant w/ 2 attacks, and giving everyone frags/kraks/pistols.
Given the 10-man requirement to take a heavy weapon, why NOT go ahead and tack on the cost of the cheaper heavies?
I'm not surprised by the whole uber-hoss characters. I mean, honestly, we're all talking about how Vulkan what's-his-face have a heavy flamer and an S6 power weapon. Ok, that IS effective, but it's also just one man.
I'd like to see how many of these pan out to be true. My biggest concern is how the 'free' weapons work out, followed by the combat tactics.
I expect that the BA/DA codices might have their dreadnoughts updated; as a BA player I don't necessarily want/need the Ironclad, but I'd like to at least get my WS5/BS5 venerable dreads. Or, I'd like my Venerable upgrade to grant me the WS/BS upgrade.
I can't say I'm too surprised by the elite options, either; the only real difference that BA/DA have is less special ammo types.
The Storm Shield...sounds too good to be true, honestly. A bunch of guys that are 2+/3++ with thunder hammers, running up the field? If that's actually true, suddenly a mob of Thunder-Hammer-Wielding assault terminators is much scarier.
just a quick question (sorry can't start a new topic :<) on the new rules vs new whitw dwarf:
the new WD says: true line of sight, you can shoot what you can see. However, the same issue goes on to say that wounds are allocated throughout the unit, whether the whole unit is in range, or sight (or not). Now I have zero problem with this, but it SEEMS to say: if I can see one grunt from a 10 man unit, I can kill them all. Is that true? (p.s. please repost this somewhere, if more appropriate). Thanks.
@nurglepuss
Yeah thats how I read it too and it seems to fly in the face of all the hoohah about TLOS if units invisible to the shooter can be removed. I was refraining from considering it until I'd read the rules myself...
I guess the situation where it happens in that extreme (1 guy in the open 9 guys concealed being wiped out, would be a fairly rare occurence unless you were particularly daft or unlucky. Also the minis would all get a decent cover save too...
Don't start Dwayne, don't open the Chaos vs Marine problem NOW, not with this kick in the face rumor pile. Chaos got the +1A at the cost of 1 point. And there is still NO way that this balances out ATSKNF which is one of THE most broken things in 40k.
How many of you Imperial dogs bleated to us Chaos folk when we lost our free vet sargents for being fluffy? "Why should you get something for following fluff" you all said. Screw you marines and your free weapons, screw you marines and your tons of new models/units/rules. Screw you GW for the lack of playtesting, forthought, hindsight and vision for this game.
@mike...
sucks to be a traitorous scum huh? ha ha ha
On a lighter note, don't think all of these will be true...and we have to think of them in the context of 5th. ed as well.
Plus there is no cost in points for these rumours so stop overreacting people. Iz only rumorz...
Wow, nice vent Mike.Not going to change anything, but nice rant.
@Dwayne:
I expect (for the high price of the rulebook, codices needed, often 2 or so per rules edition & mini's etc.) that GW make a serious concerted effort to make ALL factions roughly equal...after all, this game is primarily designed for tournament use and hence is supposed to use a "points" system that should balance things out across the board.Maybe GW could learn a thing or two from chess.I will still reserve final judgement for when the product is in my hands.
RUMORS PEOPLE, THESE ARE JUST RUMORS!
Now that everyone has calmed down, I have a very nice bridge to sell you...
Mike, Im sensing some pain here? I'm a black legion player myself (actually Im a 40K slut with about 6 armies but CSM are second favourite only to the IG) so please don't think my viewpoint comes from some loyalty to the emporers finest...
I haven't got the new rule book in front of me unfortunately (else I'd be reading that and not hitting the refresh button on this Emperor forsaken forum) so I am going to have to put it out there to those of you with inside knowledge... Do broken units at less than 50% strength still not get to regroup in 5th Ed??? Because that will be be the clincher on the ATSKNF debate methinks..
Anyway it kinda makes sense that CSM are more prone to "tactical retreat" they're weak willed otherwise they wouldn't have turned away from the emperor... hehhe
;)
http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.php?automodule=downloads&showfile=258#
I'm kinda wondering if the Termie with Storm Shield is some sort of knee jerk reaction to the horde of plasma cannon wielding devastator squads that we all know are coming (still curious if they'll 'get hot' in 5th). Just aim 4 of those @ them, and that 3+ inv save looks like REALLY expensive power armor (from a dice's point of view). Plus, regardless of how many you waste points on them, they're NOT scoring units! Unless they wipe your opponent off of the table...
As for the named character in every army ('counts as' or whatever), sounds like a nod to Privateer Press's Warmachine, where all characters are named. That said, the Lysander model is a prime example for this train of thought. I have that model in my Dark Hands army (painted olive green w/black fist), I've seen that model painted for the Crimson Fists too. Never once painted as Lysander himself, maybe GW just got tired of that.
-Corey-
I have 5th Ed with me now, and the Gets Hot rule is still in for plasma cannon type weapons :) You roll a D6 before resolving the shot, and if it's a 1, the gun heats up, model suffers a wound. The shot is also negated as per standard Gets Hot rule.
I dont know why my fellow blood angel players and dark angel players are sooo jealous about, i asked some of the people who work for games workshop if these new units and rule would apply for the more specialised chapters and he said everythin can be apllied to all chapters because the new codex is going to be the back bone of all chapters even those with there own codex's
For the 1 out 10 grunts visible due to TLOS rule, if I understand it right, you'll still get a cover save (at least for the models in cover.
My biggest concern (one of many) is with the supposed Combat Tactics special rule, and I was hoping this could be cleared up.
"Combat Tactics: special rule allow marines to voluntarily pass or fail any fall back or sweeping advance tests."
Voluntarily pass or fail any sweeping advance? Am I reading this wrong, or will Space Marines 1) Never be able to be run down and 2)Always be able to run down their enemies?
Please tell me this is either a mistake of some sort, or that a standard marine will cost roughly thirty points.
Hmm 3+ SS seam to be somewhat unrealistic the rest of it seams legit.
To the people whining about not being able to field sw and hw in 5-9 man squads and how this is so not fluffy: have you ever read any fluff? SM are ALWAYS fielded in 10 man squads (in my opinion they should make it mandatory) and i think GW is trying to make SM a bit more fluffy (which is great) by not having people run around with 6 man squads with LC and plasma.
Giving free grenades, boltpistols and heavy weapons to tacticals and giving them cool special rules is GW traing to tell you that a space marine army should mainly (and by that i mean something like 80-90% of the headcount) consist of MARINES not anything else (i actually know a guy who came up with an idea for a chapter that only fields termies and scouts and he even made it true o_O ).
It makes sense to:
"Brother we are surrounded, blast the door"
"Sry, Sergeant the grenade thing was kind of not in the budget"
-THE END-
@ anon 4:43
Its got to be a misinterpretation. How can you automatically "pass" a roll off against someone? you either beat their score or you don't. What if two SM teams were fighting against each other, one automatically falls back and one automatically sweeps them up?!?
I think/hope/pray its the choice to pass or fail the fall back morale check on losing a CC....
These rumors are SO NOT TRUE.
They would not only make marines overpowered but they would f*** up the whole game system.
Let's say you make a 500p and a 2000p armies, as does your opponent.
Point should refer to the value and power of different choises you take to keep the armies fighting equal.
So...Let's say the point cost of marines take to account the "free" weapons and are optimizes to 1000p.
Then your 500p army will be "unefficient" and your 2000p army will be over efficient. Not to mention a 10 000p apocalypse game in which you could have hundreds of point worth of free special weapon options.
This with the "new" special charecters. With the free weapons for 10 man squads all non-10-man-squads will allways be unefficient.
Can't be true, won't be true...
it official new codex and models released in october
SS with 3+ Invunerable save v. shooting and CC? I have one thing to say to that; "Any model may exchange its bolt pistol for a storm shield for +3 points." Black Templar Codex, pg. 39, copywrite GW. Seriously all. lets remember when the game went from 3rd to 4th in reference to the chapters with there own codexes, a .pdf document gave an update until new books were made. Also, I expect the transport options for squads may be given in terms of 'X' points for a Rhino or two Razorbacks @ 'Y' points each. I am curious as to how 20 man Crusader Squads are going to work. Four 5-man squads?
GW has got to be kidding!!! I just got over the shock of having to buy a new master rulebook and now I have to buy yet another new Spacemarine Codex???? I just bought a new one last summer. Do I get a refund on that one? -Oh right, I am sure they will claim "since we have new master rules of course we have to issue new Codices." If true, why was there no new Ork codex from 1995(or so) until 2008? Let's face it friends, this has much more to do with selling new books and bumping the stock price than 'streamling the rules.'
Now people may moan but the ork codex was written with 5th ed in mind and as to the other comments about all these fluffy charaters well some are true and yes they can be taken in any army.And if all DA and BA and BT players stop there bitchinhg the wolves of fenris and the dark eldarcould do witha new codex as wait whats that 10 years and still no no books what ashock. why do you run off back to your fortresses and leave the griping to wolves who have the right more than the rest of you DA scum/BA vamps/and over reglious nutters in black
@ I just got over the shock of having to buy a new master rulebook and now I have to buy yet another new Spacemarine Codex???? I just bought a new one last summer.
1 - The Space Marine Codex is the first one revised after any core rule book revision as they are the flagship model range for the game and the way the rules work revolve around that army.
2- The current Space Marine book has been out for a few years, it just happens that in your case you have only had it for one year. If you buy the new book at the beginning of its life cycle this October you will get considerably more than one year's use out of it. Annoying to have a book discontinued within a year of purchase? For sure, but if you had a lot of fun with it for a whole year then it was probably money well spent. Imagine how people who bought the core rule book less than one year ago are feeling right now or the people who bought the last version of D&D just six months ago and now find they need a full set of new costly books. These things happen when you join in one of these games late in the life cycle of their current versions. Your choice is to live with it or wait till you know for sure a new book is coming and buy it then, however, this approach can rob you of a lot of fun. Imagine if a wannabe Ork player in 2002 decided he wanted to wait for a new Ork Codex before jumping into 40K, he would have had to wait 5 years for the newer Codex to finally appear, 5 years he could have been playing the game and having fun.
i spoke to a GW associate today about most of these rumours and none of them were true. So do NOT take any of this stuff remotely serious. thats why they are rumours.
Let be realistic here....Not one of those rules would stop my 2000point guard army with 2 demolishers a literal ton of mortars and about 50-60 guardsman to force you to roll somewhere near 40-60 saves per turn. Not even marines can stand up too long to that i don't care how fast they run or if they go to ground. In almost every case marines will use their armor save against my fire power and i plan for it. Not by buying tons of pricey guns with bs3 but by getting more units that can fire more shots. You meta gamers forget about the law of averages when you look at these new rules. So what they get a 3++ save vs shooting, how many high powered shots are you going to waste on them anyway with dreadys, and landraiders, and rhino/razors scooting around. I have proven countless times to my SM counterparts that even if i don't 'win', your precious battle company has sustained losses that will require a major recruitment to recover from.
Then we get to my nids....I don't think i have to say much more than i like lots of genestealers preferably 4 full broods. Zoanthropes for synapse and Warpblast, and shooty warriors for fire support and i see another sea of marine blood running so free that even Khorne would be quite impressed if not for the carnage coming from a bunch of bugs that don't really enjoy the beauty of it.
Point of fact is they are trying to give more options because with the new rules you get less opportunity to use those options, and in fact wasting the points on too many options will cripple you. I see GW trying to make the forces seeing use are more 'real world' effective yet able to retain a unique fluffiness suitable to the whole make your own chapter idea.
As far a special chars are concerned...go ahead, i have neve protested and in fact encourage it. The battlefields of 40k represent small sections of massive battles. Even the Soul Drinkers were committing 300 out of the 500 marines they had left to pitched battles. And all of their 'special' characters were involved in almost every action. They are special because they are the best and most experienced. Why would they all the sudden not be involved in your most important battles. the rest of the battle happening off of the table has the bulk of the force involved. Have some friggin imagination people. Even in the large campaigns, after the first few minor engagements, full scale open war breaks out and only the most pitched battles are fought out on the table (not the minor skirmishes fought between 2 regiments of foot sloggers, though those games are quite fun) Why wouldn't Calgar the uber-smurf be there to capture the ammo dump that will supply his next campaign or defend the last spaceport off of the nid infested planet he is evacuating...seems important enough to me from him to bring those 2 powerfists to bear in order to secure the future of his plans. The points value of a fight is not merely to represent the value of the mission but rather the size of the battlefield this important battle is being fought on. And on that note my long winded-ness comes to an end
@ I just got over the shock of having to buy a new master rulebook and now I have to buy yet another new Spacemarine Codex???? I just bought a new one last summer.
@@"2- The current Space Marine book has been out for a few years, it just happens that in your case you have only had it for one year."
***My Bad, You are most correct. I was thinking of the Chaos Space Marine Codex I bought last year, not the Space Marine Codex. I have been playing Warhammer since the 1980s and my memory is not what it used to be. Nevertheless, four years still seems to be a fairly aggresive turn-around time. I also do not like how each time a new rulebook comes out, we are told why it is so much better than the last one. Will we hear this again in 2012? How about just getting the book throughly playtested first and then publish it? It would save me some money. I mean for the price of the new book, I could probably fill paart of my gas tank, or even buy a whole gallon of milk.
Last gripe for the day: Why all the big talk about "real" line-of-sight? Was that not the old system (outside of Cityfight)? Are my friends and I stupid, because that is how we have always played the game.
Now one in the plus column, Alessio Cavatorre(s/b?)'s emphasis on simplification is dead right. The game was getting pretty cumbersome.
Price price price...Jesus fellas even if you played just 10 times in a year and payed £30 that's £3 per game...good vfm in my opinion and the books are a thing of beauty.
I play lots of different rules and some of the rulebooks that I have paid for are abyssmal for the price...go easy on GW...they are the mainstay of our hobby...where else can you go into a store,use their armies,tables,etc and have a game...there are cheaper hobbies should you wish to take them up...walking,talking etc...if it pains you that much then play chess...greta game but not exactly fun.
Oh and lastly..Horus Heresy novels are as good as it gets for fluff...love 'em
Kev A
Coastal Blighty
"@Price price price...Jesus fellas even if you played just 10 times in a year and payed £30 that's £3 per game...good vfm in my opinion and the books are a thing of beauty."
Wow, you GW employees/store owners are sure subtle. I never would have guessed you weren't a layman player...Look Coastal-Blighty Dude, we love your games and spend a ton of dough on your products, just give us some space to complain once in a while. Which is more dangerous to GW's business; honest customer opinions or collectivist group think?
Concerning the storm shields, perhaps the 3+ invulnerable save from shooting only counts if the fire comes from 90 degree angle arcing out from the front of the model. Same in CC if a model is assaulting from behind/flank.
Flanking then would be a viable tactic.
Looks like the usual, sad beakie favoritism. Hmm... with Fantasy having gone up an excrement creek without a paddle, I may have to just go all out on Warmachine now.
Lord Cypher: You can be perfectly happy with Special Characters... But I myself am getting pretty sick and tired of seeing Eldrad fighting for every fraggin craftworld's small battle. Seriously, where the hell ISN'T he showing up these days? Here's a fight involving Sam-Hain vs. some Necrons... With Eldrad. Here's a fight between Iyanden and some Nids... with another Eldrad. And over here we have a Harlequin army... with Eldrad. They should have just removed the Farseer HQ choice in the latest Eldar book, and replaced it with something like '1+ Eldrad'.
RELEASE DATES, SPACE MARINES
-Space Marine Spearhead $244, September 20
-Space Marine Codex $25, Oct. 4
-Drop Pod $30, Oct. 4
And here was me wondering whether or not to do a marine army.
I am going to do what Scott said and use the Sali-man under a different name.
Ironclad Dread = own on toast
Ummm I play Marines (Salamanders to be exact) and like them as much as the next guy but jesus christ they are like dedicating their entire design staff to them pumping out new stuff for Marines thats just going to attract many many more people to play them
This is what is gonna end up happening:
"Holy crap, did you see the new stuff in the Marine codex, whole bunch of new cool models and crazy overpowered crap, screw Eldar i'm going Marines!"
Then eventually 80% of all Warhammer players are Marines. Eventually Eldar, Dark Eldar, Necrons, and Inquisition will be phased out and it will come down to Tyranids/Orks vs Imperial Guard/Marines. Not liking this direction. Games Workshop should be using this thunder of developments for boosting the Dark Eldar, I mean cmon Marines are going into 5th Edition Codex while DE are still in 2nd with old crappy models. I'm cashing out and going Flesh Tearers tyvm.
Please don't be true....
Oh and btw, who is this new Vulkan Estan guy? Where the hell is Tu'shan?
i hope that Dark eldar and necrons get redone soon and demon hunters... and oh how many codexs havent been redone while the the space marines were redone oh.... 2 or so years ago? but congrats on your next new codex you flower children of GW.... dont worry any problems with it will be redone in your next codex due out in December of 2010 and for you necron and Demon hunter/witch hunters out there im sure youll get a nice one page faq soon...
if you read the battle report in the 5th ed rulebook, they appear to be using the new marine codex, as 125 points for a captain with lightning claw and plasma pistol, 35 point rhinos and 170 point 10 man marine squads w/flamer and missile launcher don't add up, it's on P245 of the book
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