Hi all, here are some morsels that have washed up on the shore on our good friend, the Master of Bling - Marneus Calgar himself.
Marneus Calgar
First off, Marneus Calgar is described as awesome; the Abaddon of loyalists. Not simply because he's an outstanding fighter but because of the support he provides for his army. He gives all Ultramarines the ability to pass or fail any Leadership test (other reports say morale checks). This is a superior ability to Combat Tactics as that only works in CC and the marines can normally only choose to fail.
Marneus also has a rule called "God of War" which allows him to re-roll virtually anything (shooting to hit rolls, attacks rolls in assualt, to wound rolls). It is basically the psychic power Warp Time, but is always on and works with Marneus' shooting. His storm bolter built into the Gauntlets of Ultramar is AP2. Marneus had 4 base attacks on his statline and is armed with two powerfists. ~you do the math
Calgar possesses Eternal Warrior without any mention of a mantle. Power armour is apparently no longer an option for him, but his "Honour Guard" are still in power armor. Finally, he's wearing his Terminator armour with an additional 4+ invulnerable save.
Honor Guard Vs Command Squads
There is a bit of confusion regarding these units so here are some other morsels we've heard. Honour Guard and Command Squads are two different things. Only "Chapter Masters" can get Honour Guard and they cannot take apothecaries (so no Honor Guard-Feel No Pain combos). Command Squads are available for company captains. The leader of the Command Squad is the company champion who gets to re-roll all hits against enemy ICs.
~Wow, thats a big ball of crazy for Marneus. Now the Gauntlets of Ultramar seem downright scary. No word on points costing, but if these rumors pan out (standard caveats apply) then I'm thinking somewhere in the order 200pts wouldn't seem too far out there. Your thoughts?
136 comments:
Wow. I might have to actually use Marneus and Honor guard now. I always liked the way they look, but they weren't worth the points. The leaderhip pass/fail thing alone makes him worth it, but on top of that he's a two-fisted termie killer as well. Does anyone know if he still has the minimum army point buy-in? If you can't take him below 1500 points, then it doesn't seem nearly as imbalanced.
It seems like GW is trying to make special characters super expensive and amazing like WHFB.
-iluvatar
Maleus sounds like a good counter point on ABBADON. Abbadon is so incredibly crazy, that something like the maleus decribed there whould seem fair, with a 200+ point thing.
He has I1 with thouse fists or what?
Sounds like he's finally the badass that he should be. He'll probably be close to Abbadon's 275 point cost as they are pretty similar.
I would imagine that he does strike at I1 because of the powerfists. I don't they would make a special rule negating that as it would make him a bit over the top
~twitch... twitch~
Uhh... wow. I think I need a moist towellette.
If only Abaddon was that good...
Wow, I hope that doesn't mean that the rest of the loyalist chapter masters will become the "Luft Hurons" equivalent.
Of course, finally "Papa Smurf" is getting some love here. I have to say, the Apoc games that had me fielding him generally ended in him being ripped into tiny bitty bits by anything with a power fist or lightning claws.
It's going to be worth fielding him again in big games, but it's just more incentive for me to build the First Company, and of course putting together a few more termies to go with him.
So if I want my army to have special rules, I have the pay for an extremely expensive IC that I can't decide the wargear for. blah
"It seems like GW is trying to make special characters super expensive and amazing like WHFB.
-iluvatar"
yeah. its a good thing
Though hasn't it been rumored (or postulated) that it is intended that all of these special characters be "renamed" and used for whichever Chapter you wish?
That kind of dilutes them all doesn't it?
Jon
I've discussed with a lot of people how SM named characters are, for the most part, nothing compared to most other races' named characters. If all this is true, I now formally rescind that statement.
Anyone heard -- or maybe I missed -- whether GW will add to the errata for Dark Angels\Blood Angels based on new SM rules; i.e. 3+ invulnerable saves for terminators with storm shields, feel no pain for apothecaries, etc.?
HAHA... Marney is finally growing up... it never made sense for an awesome pair of gauntlets to have sub-standard shooty weapons... AP2 ZOMG!!!!
plus he has to be I1, otherwise he would be too overpowered... i might even finally buy him and use him with my 2000 pts of ultramariens i havent played in 8 months...
Calgar sounds great now, although I am peeved about yanking the power armor variant
I heard rumors that Apothecaries will be "floating" choices, like techmarines. Therefore able to join the uber honor guard...
I play with Robert and if he tries to run Marneus together with any other non-Ultra character im going to hurt him.
papa smurf really means business this time!
one of my fellow gamers wants marneus to be his girlfriend, now i think he'l want to marry him instead!
I dont see him coming close to Abbadon. Abbadon has a S8 Daemon Weapon thus striking in initiative order, a potential 11 S8 insta-kill attacks before anything else in most cases.
sorry, "anonymous" but you are about to feel the sting of Marneus Calgar and his Ultraven Ultrashikean fleeting assault marines and his hit and run Blue Scar bikers with twin-linked Ultramander meltas ^_^
@Zarok - he is an eternal warrior so you better hope his 4+ save fails 3 of those :D
Yay! Now the marines can one round kill all my MC's. They Dreadnaughts are already greatly improved, needing at least a Str of 6 to have a chance...whereas Carnifex (base T) and Hive Tyrant, duh duh duh, chance to wound with Str 3.
Marines, I really am very happy for the awesome looking codex you are receiving, and hoping that everyone gets this treatment in haste (read that in less than 2 years time, not the 5+ years of the past).
But I am not really wanting to play against this the way things sound. It is too much over-the-top while the other armies are waiting to get their upgrade. That makes the games not fun, as it is already more points intensive for Nids in 5th with the new No Retreat rules. It will be nice for you guys, you deserve it after the last few codices you have recieved.
GW Please hurry with ALL the other Codices so that all players can be on equal footing once again.
hahahahahaha
Hey Gade, are you ESL? You mispelled a name that was spelled out for you about 50x above, below, and even in the article.
FAIL.
Yay for Marneus, too bad he still blows at I-1 for PF attacks.
''So if I want my army to have special rules, I have the pay for an extremely expensive IC that I can't decide the wargear for. blah''
You are retarded, no, that's not the case.
Comparisons to Abbadon are like comparing apples to oranges.
Abbadon is a close combat monster. He can take on ANYTHING and have a pretty solid chance at winning. Hordes? Doesn't matter. MCs? Strength 8 and at least 5 attacks on the charge mean even a beefed up carnifex is going to feel some pain. Yes, Abbadon is phenomenal.
Until he rolls a 1 for his attacks. Not only will he take a wound, but he doesn't fight back at all. For those of us that play Chaos, that's a pretty serious drawback for a model with Abbadon's price tag. Heck, even for a regular Chaos Lord that's pretty scary.
If these rumors about Marneus hold true, he will kill anything he fights. Shooting, close combat, doesn't matter. They're dead. Granted, he goes last so the enemy will have the hope that they can scratch his armor. But will they kill him? Eventually. But the rest of the army still chooses to pass or fail any leadership test. That alone is priceless. Choose to pass?? I don't know about anyone else, but I've found close combat to be pretty darn brutal and with some of those negative modifiers, it takes a miracle to pass a test. Not to mention how this may affect librarians...
Games Workshop, I have listened to all the rumors, confirmed or not, about this Space Marine codex and I have kept the faith that even if they were true you wouldn't do anything to imbalance the game. That the cost of the Space Marine units would appropriately reflect the abilites they were given. That even though the Special Characters seemed powerful, they wouldn't be game breaking.
After hearing this, I am now afraid. I hope for all our sakes this is not true.
I had Abaddon kill 3000 pts of Space marines in Apocalpyse in cluding crippling a LR cursader, CAN "Pappa Smurf" do that, Without taking more than 1 wound and that was from a thunder hammer and in the next round at I1 I killed 10 marines.....Other wise cool stuff about the Honour guard/ command squad breakdown
CHEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEESE!!!!
BEARDY CHEESE!!
God that sucks ive always thought that loyalist chapter masters should be around equal.
Plus i feel that this overly strong emphasis on IC's rewards homogeny and punishes the people who use their imagination and use stuff of their own devising and miss out on the stupidly powerful named chapter IC's.
Hmf...
Why are people suddenly flipping out about Space Marines and balance? The game will not break. Marneus can not single handedly take on 180 footslogging Orks. He probably couldn't have turned the tide in my Games Day Tournament game against the Nid horde. He'd still have a hard time taking down a Falcon, Prism, or Wave Serpent.
I repeat, the game is not broken.
Anon @ 7:53 - seems you missed the comments about renaming ICs to suit your DIY chapters
"You are retarded, no, that's not the case."
oooh,effective counter-point that clarifies everything!
4chan is back up, go home.
changing names and colors with "counts as " has already been going on forever. The question is whether the ICs will be customizable at all
The game has been broken for a long time now. It's just going to get worse.
@xNickBaranx:
I don't think people are saying the game is broken. I think it is more people are frustrated seeing all the upgrades for the Imps before some of the Xenos get upgraded (even though Eldar and Orks were recently upgraded and Necrons and D. Eldar are on the soon to be updated lists), especially since Marines were one of the armies out of the gate for 4th as well.
The other facet is that some SM players have an attitude that they are the only ones deserving of this kind of treatment, and are the same players that act like all other armies are anti-SM and unfair when their codices come out.
We know GW will upgrade all the armies eventually, as that is how they keep interest in the game, but a few bad apples spoil the bunch.
im just peeved that they are making these dudes wayy better than CSM's
on the surface it does not seem that bad but when you go into it it does
3+ inivuns are cool but shoot em like you regularlky do thy will die because they wil be at least 75 ppm
calgar will have to be 300+ points or you chose one of the multiple abilities
it has been CONFIRMED apothecaries are elites or HQ depending how u use em
if they do not do these few things or something like this then the game will in fact be broken and i will go in a hibernate-esque state until my guard or CSM's are redone..of course if they ammend CSM's to some degree or make it so that marines infact blow i will not
Keep it civil guys...
Oh joy...
As if I didn't expect the new Space Marine codex to be one giant ball of OTT brokenness, now I have this confirmated trusting that these rumors on Calgar are true. Why not just rename him God and grant him the special power called "I win". This power will come into play when the player places God on the table. From that point out the player using that model wins. Sounds like fun to me!
Space Marines are fine for the most part. Jervis' big rush to "fix" them stems from some issues with the traits system. So what is the best way to fix that? I got it, remove the traits altogether and make broken special character!
Retire your Xenos armies, put away all your Chaos forces and start painting your marines blue. Boy this sounds like fun!!! I can't wait!
abaddon is still gonna be the better of the two. up to 12 str7 I6 daemon weapon attacks? screw those dumb gloves.
oh yea i almost forgot. wasnt their gonna be an abaddon equivalant named Tu'Shan or something? why all the love on calgar all of a sudden?
CSM are still hackier than SM. Why do they get CCW and bolt pistols and bolters for same price? Why do they get daemons and 1k sons and plague marines and all the other things? Compared to 5th ed. chaos, it doesn't seem overpowered.
@ CSM are still hackier than SM. Why do they get CCW and bolt pistols and bolters for same price? Why do they get daemons and 1k sons and plague marines and all the other things? Compared to 5th ed. chaos, it doesn't seem overpowered.
Yeah, right. Marneus Calgar himself must have posted that comment. Surprised he can type with those giant magic gauntlets on his hands.
Until you realize that Marines under his leadership will be ALMOST identical to Fearless, himself got a bunch of nice toys AND almost ALL re-rolls?
Guess, at least I want the old Force Weapon rules to come back.
Tyranids and Chaos Space Marine Players have no right to complain about anything. Every edition of this game favors Chaos and Tyranids, and I really can't stand to hear any more whining about it. Space Marines have been below par when compared to their faithless (but yet higher leadership and fearless)brothers since the Codex system was established. Tyranid Players have received multiple boons in 5th Edition. I am happy with everything I have heard of for the Space Marines Codex. I don't look forward to the 5th Ed versions of the CSM Codex or the Tyranids Codex, as I fear the balance will inevitably shift back towards those armies.
@ Tyranids and Chaos Space Marine Players have no right to complain about anything. Every edition of this game favors Chaos and Tyranids, and I really can't stand to hear any more whining about it.
This is ridiculous or just plain goofy. Sounds like someone's Space Marine army tactics may need adjustment if they find that Space Marines are "underpowered". Space Marines, you know, the only army in the game that can't be run down and destroyed when they lose close combat?
If the marines choose to auto pass the ld test using Calgar's rule will that be resolved using th no retreat rule? If so then I think that would make it not nearly as powerful.
Plus this guy still doesn't seem unstoppable and with his honor guard will probably cost 500+ points. So if someone wants the uber Papa smurf and 10 of his boys for 1/3 of his army, I say go ahead, that doesn't seem ubalanced to me. I could 3 wraithlords in place of Calgar if he is about 250pts, I think they would win the CC with him adn probably outshoot him too.
Maybe it's just me but so far nonoe of this, "OMG broken!" stuff has really seemed to have any merit when you consider the cost of the models/weapon/ability in question. I think people are just mad that SM are getting redone first and they feel the need to attack the codex.
This is coming from a Necron player(they are a metallic blue though so I might a have a soft spot for the smurfs...no), when was my codex last updated? Where are my options for stuff? So quit whining you CSM players and get on with your heretical lives.
@anonymous 6:57PM:
A 'nid player worrying about marines being overpowered?
I'm overwhelmed at the delicious irony of that.
@ This is coming from a Necron player
Pretty much invalidates any criticism of others coming from the army that can glance any vehicle in the game with every weapon in their army, can teleport all over the place with a near unbeatable hit-and-run tactic, and have their units near impossible to get rid of thanks to WBB. Sure Necrons don't whine for a new codex 'cause they have one of the best in the game regardless of its age.
I play Chaos which I finally found to be my nich force a while back and personally I love the new space marine rules from a opposition stand point.
The one and only problem with space marines is that some people who play them are dicks.
I play for the fluff and have army choices based solely on my warband's background. I even take 8 Bloodletters(lesser daemons) over 10 which I have seen be more effective because its Khorne's number.
Commanders like Shrike are the best of the best bad asses in their field. If Shrike is leading an army, they benefit from his enhanced experience and skill at fast assaults, granting them fleet from his training. Fabius Bile experiments on his forces and makes them mutant crazy strong but its a benefit from his presence.
You want a fleeting Ravenguard army but dont want to use Shrike? Or a Pass/Fail Ultramarine army without Marneus? In one off games with buddies or leanent local tournaments, use those rules for 100 points or something to that effect.
Jervis and Alessio and Gav and all those guys play the game with some cool rules they think work well, so then they spread those rules around to other people playing their game to use as a standard for playing with a stranger who you share nothing but common rules knowledge. For Tournaments and competitions it goes by majority rules but get with your buddies, make house rules and have some fun, thats what eviceration in the 41st millennium is all about!
Do people here only whines ?
Scott I totally dig that. The most recent codex is usually the most powerful. It's always been the case. I've been playing for 12 years and I'll go on surfing the wave.
Other people, you been playing for 2 weeks or what ? Stop complaining ! The new SM are gonna be rock-solid and I can't wait to face (and break) them !!
BRING ME A WORTHY OPPONENT !!
The rest can stay in their smoothy kindergarten as far as I'm concerned !
FINALLY OUR BELOVED ULTRAMARINES HAVE SOMETHING TO BRING THEM OUT OF THE VANILLA ICECREAM BUCKET AND INTO THE FLAVOUR OF KICK ASS
WELL DONE, CODEX WRITERS YOU HAVE REWROTE AN INJUSTICE A LONG TIME IN THE RUNNING......
PAX IMPERIALIS, PAX ULTRA!!!
@ a.r.
Thats just blasphemous against the Emperor! Wanna come to poker night? The Berzerkers are buying beer this week!
CHEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEESE!!!!
BEARDY CHEESE!!
God that sucks ive always thought that loyalist chapter masters should be around equal.
Plus i feel that this overly strong emphasis on IC's rewards homogeny and punishes the people who use their imagination and use stuff of their own devising and miss out on the stupidly powerful named chapter IC's.
Hmf...
1) Traits system was broken, too many power gamer combos.
GW realized too late that they had made too many options that could not be adequately balanced and playtested before release.
By using special characters, you have the ability to make a unique fluffy force {IRREGARDLESS of the SC original chapter} that allowed a departure from the standard codex astartes.
HOMOGENY? Yes, but only in the rules as to limit broken combos.
How exactly is this stifling creativity? You can convert/model/paint your army as you see fit.
You can use Khan's SC rules for your own chapter master of your own unique chapter of marines. You can model your own unique version of his weapons and wargear.
Too often I hear ppl try to use the fluff argument as to why their armies are optimized to a knife edge....
For instance, I intend to port over my Heresy Era Imperial Fists by using Pedro Cantor to represent a large contingent of veterans that stayed with the chapter after the legion was split to create the Black Templars and Crimson Fists.
Is that wrong? Is that lacking imagination? Am I using any extra advantages besides what Cantor allows?
As Marneus' Half Brother, I am quite pleased with this set of rumours.
BYE
To: Son of Russ
I hope you aren't referring to me because that is perfectly acceptable as you are making your army work the way you want it to.
I just hate it when people assume that even just plain regular troop choices dont match up, they do if you intend to have fun but I dont see why the hell else you pay so much to PLAY A GAME than have fun. In a recent campaign I used a different commander each battle, from a lowly aspiring champion leading a combat patrol to my Lord commanding his army in the final battle. When I needed to raid a shield generator I totally switched my force to use raptors bikers and a jump pack lord I never even owned before but proxyed for the fun of it. Unlike the Space marine player who had three Land Raiders in every game!
People forget that we play to be the commander and have fun in that role, if you are fielding Marneus or using him as a gateway for the customized force you want, thats the intention is it not?
@11:07pm Anon,
Hello HBMC
Abbadon is 275pts. I see this special character to be at least this many points. Any lower and it's just a total steal IMO.
So does that mean when the Blood Angels Codex is redone I may be able to field only one honor guard together with Commander Dante? That would be too bad as I already bought two for my two HQ choices. On the other hand, these two honor guards are worth almost 1'000 points so this had to be a really large Apocalypse game where I'd field them both.
@ Evernevermore.
different coloured versions of the same IC's with different names will still be homogeny. I'm still probably going to be fighting salamanders or raven guard just in different colours. woo variety.
An IC kit might have been nice, with all sorts of purchasable options and customisation to make it fit your army.
Marneus is 250 points.
Cheers =)
Marneus really sounds like he is worth the points now. I always felt, that his impact on a game was far too low based on his fluff.
The only downside for me is the "no power armor option" thing. I still have the old power armor model back from the times of 2nd Ed. and it's still unpainted. Guess there's not much reason anymore to get him ready for action now.
There's something I find unsettling about permitting named special characters to be used with whatever army you like - suddenly they're not so 'special'.
Half the point of special characters is their background which is always tied into the background of their race/chapter/etc. They are supposed to be unique and a small incentive for collecting a particular army.
The Gauntlets of Ultramar are an ancient relic dating from before the Horus Heresy and have special abilities to reflect their unique status. But now any chapter can have them? Oh please...
P.S. I know most of you are going to disagree, but this is just my opinion.
@ DJ of E
But wasn't it established that Abbadon was better then the god of war and thus shouldn't be the same points cost?
Im not sure why theres so much hatred going around, theres plenty of options for every one.
Ultramarines were lacking in personality somewhat and i hope this will address some of that. It is rewarding to those that follow the Codex Astartes...which was meant to be the best way for marines to win a battle, which felt more like a draw back when considering BA,DA or BT.
In fairness all you need is a certain orc hq choice and it could turn your beloved IC into a angry squiq.
DS86
Bigred, 200pts is your best estimate?
He'll be closer to 300. At least as much as Abaddon with those stats, if not more. I know between the two, if Marneus really is all that the rumor says, Marneus would win out every time.
On another note, this new SM codex is looking more and more unbalanced every time I see a new rumor. Why the hell play any other SM codex, including Chaos at this point?
can't ppl just wait for the damn codex to come out??
so much complaining and whining going on here...!!
just wait for 2 months and u'll find out everything abt the new marines!
don't speculate wildly then go ruin the hobby for yourself and others...
just be patient with it...
and if you think that all the SM-style codexes should be similar (CSM, SM, DA, BT, BA, SW) then why the hell do you even play??
there's something called Codex Astartes, Divergent chapters, and Heretical Legions present in the game mind you...
and in an army where everything is pretty much T4, AV3, you have some funny ideas on how overpowered they are..
and remember... if you make them roll enough dice... they are dead anyways...
hiya im a space marine player. well blood angels really and i must say i honestly do not like these changes. even if their points cost reflects these abillities it is going to make space marines prohibitively(SP) hard to play in games less than 1500 points.
id also like to state that i personally feel this codex is actually taking out alot of the character, the best codexi were the old style tyranid(latest) CSM imp guard and space marine codexi. sure they could be abused but if you put a little thought into it you could easily make a unique army no one else had and this dumbing down of the codex is incredibly detrimental to the game
So at 250pts and most likely he'll have to take a retinue of Honour Guard as well how much value for money is he really?
Bear in mind he and his retinue can only deny the opponent an objective not actually hold it.
For 400pts odd I can think of plenty of troops an enemy can field to counter the threat.
He can't be everywhere at once remember...and no consolidating into combat anymore either.
Personally I always thought that Spae Marines and other high priced elite armies (yes that includes Eldar) should be able to choose to fall back in the face of adversity. Makes sense really, but it's a high price to pay.
Think I'll just field two 5 man DA squads with Razorbacks instead...
Ability to choose pass-or-fail on a Ld/Morale test ? Ohhhhh, Inquisitors Lords are going to be pissed.
Re-roll any roll ? Well, Stern, you are not even unique anymore.
this comes from a chaos-sm player:
I like the changes to SM I see mentioned in rumors. As far as I have percieved it, you get many options to customize your army as well as those amazing special characters which grant you even mroe abilities.
will it be overpowered? no. as we have seen with codex chaosdeamons gw still knows that shiney toys have to cost many points and new ideas come prenerfed.
will sm be unplayable beyond 20k points? no, as you still have the "cheap" tacticals as troops which have the potential to crush other armies elites & hq if needed. I personally mostly use vanilla csm as my comon troop with only a squad of berzerkers once in a while and havent had problems with any troop type yet. as you dont have bp&cc you might need to take a jump-pack squad as a counter but those wont be soo pricey anyways.
ohh and everyone who complains about the assoult termis with 3+ invul: shut up and test things before. I've been useing chaosterminators of tzeentch for ages and the 4+ save was enough so the enemy allways directed their plasmashots to kill my troops. my termis then dies to massive ap 6,5,4 wounds from bolters, shuriken, multilasers and stuff.
3+ invul would be somewhat OP if those termis would be able to do damage at range or with high initiative. but with stormhammers they have to get into close combat and live till i1 to do anything. allmost anything which you'd need termis to kill is able to deal soem serious damage by then...
@ Anonymous
No, I just refuse the spell an SM right.
I deny your realism and contributes with my own.
ps there isnt posts below when you type as the first.
It feels to me that Marneus and some of the other ICs are made for Apoc. games and not 1500 to 2000 point games that most of us play. It might even be a datasheet not a standard IC. That may be why he will cost so much and why he's a little overpowered. Be clam guys everyone was yelling "broken" when the 5th ed. rumors first came out, but now everyone is singing in joy of the new changes. Give it time, we'll see where that road leds soon.
I deny your realism and contributes with my own.
Kruppe
DS86
you know i can't wait for the new sm codex not for the variety of units, or all the new things but for the lore it has to contain, i'm the rping typE of guy and learning more about the 41st millennia is always amazing but there is only one thing i disagree with, yes they're making sm's as they should be bad asses that kill and ask questions later, but they are on the par of csm's i mean common csm's have been there since the great crusades! the no and they shall have no fear rule makes sense because thats how they survived they fled to fight another day, i'm just saying they're doing it right with sm's and should have kept most of 3rd editions csm's content true, i mean in the past, csm's were the shit they were the army (or at least) one of the armies to beat, they had pure flexibility, they made sense, pure khorne armies, pure nurgle etc. rivalry between the gods rewarding favored units it all made sense, but now that they made old school great crusade'in chaotic army that NEARLY took over the golden palace weaker than the new recruitin sm's i find it kinda irritating, yes marneus is suppose to be a bad ass he's the chapter master to the hardest sm chapter of all time! but he shouldn't come close to abbaddon i mean this guy was captain of THE HARDEST SM LEGION and he can bend the will of all csm legions slash renegades, if marneus can pwn abbaddon i will be severely irritated, not because i'm a die hard csm player but because gw wouldn't be keeping true to the lore that they created....just my rant of the day
Seems to me that after the Nerdstorm generated by the blandness that was Codex:CSM GW are doing what we asked for. More fluff, more interesting units and on the whole just a load more cool stuff.
I find it curious, although not entirely unpredictable, that by doing so they have generated a Nerdstorm of equal or greater size...
I guess you just can't please all of the people all of the time...
Calgar looks like fun to use in an Apocalypse game but I still doubt I'd find space for him in a normal game when I compare the likely cost of him and his Honour Guard with a low cost commander/chaplain/librarian and a whole bunch of extra units.
I guess most of the hate for him comes from peoples' dislike of using ICs rather than anything intrinsic to his rules? I find it a curious mindset as most of the other games I play use ICs exclusively over generic customiseable characters and it really isn't an issue for any of the players... Is it just a relic attitude handed down from the days of 2nd Ed when "special characters" truly ruled the field? Should we just put it behind us and get on with playing the game?
Now that the "special characters" are IC options in the main lists I just see them as a statline that you can purchase and I mentally delink them from the models and fluff that accompany them. Maybe thats just an end result of the CSM codex's blandness though?
The new SM codex looks like it'll be a doozy to me! One IC like Calgar doesn't make or break it though, its the variety of units that will be available, the return of old favourites like the Conversion Beamer and field artillery, and the wealth of cool new models that have been sneak peeked that get me excited :-)
Sigh, this is getting depressing.
I'm not talking about the power level, mind you, I'm used to playing against stronger armies. I'm a DH player after all.
I can stand that we aren't getting no updates for years now while SM codex comes out every edition. I understand, they're more popular.
But, I can't stand one thing. I continued to play Inquisition for one reason: they were always unique.
But now ? I see those rumors and I can't stop thinking, "is this a cruel joke ?".
S6 power weapons ? OB ? Etc Etc Etc...
Well, nice to see Marines are getting a character thats worthy of their reputation (superhuman killing machines!)...
Be nice if all marine Chapters could get one though...and not just the 'Manillamarines'. This new Codex is already making the 'new' Dark Angels codex seem like a wet tissue. Being an avid DA fan, this just feels like they used the DA codex as a test...then the new marine codex took what was good, removed what was rubbish and added about 100% more better stuff!
Even the Blood Angels with their 'free' codex got the first Toughness 5 character...Dark Angels got a chapter master that IMO was worse than the previous version!
To sum it up, GW is really pimping the ICs giving them gross over the top stuff.
While GW got the rules right, it appears that the Codex trend is going to the "latest crack" codex. The more I hear of these rumors the more disappointed I get. They are pushing special characters harder than ever...Dark Angels, Blood Angels and Orks updates shows that trend already...Orks wasn't that bad nor was the other two, but they gave a hint of the trend to come.
In response to all the people asking why all the whining, in my defence my army is being ignored by GW to a grotesque degree with a codex coming 'maybe' somewhere in the next five years after everyone else and no mention in WD, on the web in their 'How your army handles in Vth' articles and sever lack of any recognition in the Vth Edition rulebook. So I'm gonna whine all I want cause it looks like I don't even exist to GW anymore.
Robert:
"sorry, "anonymous" but you are about to feel the sting of Marneus Calgar and his Ultraven Ultrashikean fleeting assault marines and his hit and run Blue Scar bikers with twin-linked Ultramander meltas ^_^"
Not going to happen - If you have two IC with the Chapter tactics special rule you have to chose one of the Chapter tactics - you cant use both at the same time.
Calgar has turned from hard support to a walking god machine(not to be associated with titans)
The only real irony in all this is that when a non-marine player can actually play a tournament level game competitively with a marine player the game's called "Broken".
But when SMs get God-Level stats, 3+ invul saves, a choice of moral checks, fleet here, re-roll anything there, and non-marines call bullshit, this is called "Whining" or "you nerds take this too seriously".
All I can say is that when a $250 boxed army is the top prize at your next RTT, expect to see a Marine player loading it into his car at the end of the day.
I've changed my mind, tournaments are in fact broken. Only now we need SM only and Xenos only tourneys. They play an entirely different game.
Come to think of it, shouldn't Dante be more bad-ass than Marneus? I mean, he's only been around for over 1000 years, more than double the time of Marneus.
But it's nice to know that they're changing IC's to be alot tougher now and more capable of affecting the whole battlefield, instead of being a small zone of denial somewhere. It's also comforting to know that good ol' papa smurf can't be taken out by some grunt with a power fist anymore.
It's funny to see Chaos players worrying that he could POSSIBILY beat Abbadon if he survived his first few attacks.
Because no one should have even the slightest chance of beating Abbadon one on one.
I believe that with the popularity and sucess of Apocalypse GW is trying to bring the mass killing and decisive battle carnage to normal 40k. The uber tooling of IC is also inline with other tabletop games and people seem to love the cinematicesque experience of the leader wading through scores of enemies to lock blades with the opposing leader. I may have made up 2 words.
I think the one big thing that everyone is overlooking in regards to the new trend of special characters becoming a real part of the lists is the reason. A direct response to War Machine/Hordes.
For all the "customization" that you can do to with a standard HQ choice, what options do you really have? Choice of weapon? Which bit of not terribly game changing wargear he will have? Maybe a choice of 3+ vs 2+ armor save?
By creating a bunch of characters meant to be renamed as needed, the provide a bunch of actually different character archetypes, while making sure that each one is internally balanced, in a way that you could just never do if you made let people make a character from a huge list of abilities.
Sure, each of them has less cusomizability than a standard hero, but a standard hero doesn't really have that much to begin with, while the level of customizability for an overall army has gone up significantly with the addition of new characters.
@ All I can say is that when a $250 boxed army is the top prize at your next RTT, expect to see a Marine player loading it into his car at the end of the day.
So what you're saying is that Marines can expect to win all the time now because the Codex is more powerful, not because they are used by good players with good strategies? If the idea that Marines will win at RTT is a foregone conclusion just based on the new Codex, how can you then say that the book is not overpowering or that it doesn't break the game? That's not a rational argument, it's just more celebration over the fact that the Marines got new toys and that it's now easier for dolts to win games using them.
Need to also take into account the new 5th ed victory conditions. Games are now a win-lose situation...no more variations on how big you win. Take objectives-missions for example. Only troops can claim them. So the best that MC can do is to contest an objective. Even if he kills the squad holding it (to the last man!) he can't claim it.
While MC will be a major player (as any Chapter Master should be) you still need joe-marines in abundance to actually win the game.
Bah, there is only one God of War!
SKULLS FOR THE SKULL THRONE!
Stop whining. Anyone who says tournaments weren't broken before but are now haven't played in enough of them. Anyone who makes comments like "Now dolts can win" doesn't see how much 40K is like a CCG with toys and they should try a tabletop wargame that is truly about tactics and less about memorization of special rules and Mathhammer.
MC will make play more fun for Ultramarines, and that's all that matters. Don't take 40K so seriously - it's a delivery system for model sales. Just have fun with it.
There are other, better games out there if you want to flex your nerd "tactics" muscles.
Or you could go join the armed forces and put your money where your mouth is...I hear they're in need of warm bodies right now.
SM players will load up on expensive toys and berserkers will kill ther troops and sit on objectives LOL
Um... Wow. Lots of wildly negative posts here. Doesn't matter how many bells and whistles marines get. There will be point cost adjustments to cover for them.
Either way, people still roll 1's and 2's for armor saves. Marines are not and never will be invincible. I have never been able to place them on the table and been able to instantly claim victory.
Relax, breathe, chill.
It'll be okay.
-DavicusPrime
Has anyone called a Whaaa-mbulance for all the whiners yet? ;)
I am so horribly sick of marine fanboys missing a very large point to all the CSM players "whines". Your codex is ripe with new units, powers, chapter specific modifications to the force chart and to the way the army plays...ALL OF WHICH WERE TORN FROM THE CHAOS CODEX.
When the CSM 'dex was released it was the same people here calling US "whiners" because we raged at the loss of our legions and rules. Broken or not they were OURS. Yeah trade two heavy support for an extra Fast was DUMB but we had the option and played it out. You called us "whiners" because we moaned at the loss of the magic numbers. We weren't bloody concerned with the loss of a free 15pt asp. champ, we were concerned with the LOSS OF ALL OF OUR CHARACTER AND FLAVOUR.
NOW YOU GET IT ALL AND WHEN WE SPIT ON IT YOU CALL US ***WHINERS***??!?!??!?!
Las, lightning claws and plasma. I will bring nothing else to the rest of my games of 40k in the hopes that I draw a marine player. I'd rather lose to every Xenos army out there then to a single marine list.
P.S. The Nightbringer could even lose to Abaddon, he's nuts.
P.P.S. GW you suck.
Actually durring the Heresy Horus was actually scared of the Ultramarines, Robert was the one primarch the Horus felt could out tactic him. To have Marneus reflect this fact should just be common sense. The gauntlets were purified Chaos toys, Just look at them, they look nasty.
The Lunar Wolves may have been the big nasty legion. You have to remember that when Robert was found, He already had a small interstellar empire going. Sounds like the UM's were actually the big boys on the block, just tempered with Roberts form of honor.
I don't play CSM, but I do feel sorry that they lost those god given magic numbers. Those just made sense. If GW had a problem they could have just lowered the benefit to a more "acceptable" level. Instead of free champions, maybe a free upgrade to the champions of some style (Not sure didn't know much about the chaos dex)
What a bunch of crybabies! In the campaigns that I've played in, I always breathe a sigh of relief when I'm facing Marines. In 4th Ed. they were easy to beat.
I like that Marines are getting some teeth. People will actually have to do hard things like thinking in order to beat them. I'll enjoy fighting them and I'll enjoy playing them (I don't actually have a SM army right now, but I'm going to be building one).
As the new codices come out, all the armies will be on parity with the Marines. Orks already are, from what I can see.
So quit cryin' and sack up, you cupcakes!
Huh, lovely series of comments so far.
Personally, the only real problem I have had with the more recent codexes is what appears to be an over emphasis on named "special" characters in what is essentially a skirmish based game. Since I tend to build balanced / themed lists for most of the games I play (I do make exceptions to this for tournaments ofc), I find it hard to justify taking any of the named "special" characters in any games other than Apocalypse games, as the scale of the battle just does not seem appropriate for their inclusion unless you are looking at 3000+ points per side.
On a side note, in the last two RTT tournaments I played in I ended up in 2nd place and 3rd place with my Farsight Enclave themed Tau army (i.e., no kroot, no vespid, no ethereals, limits on the number of certain untis taken, but not actually taking Commander O'Shovah himself), and in the last one I played in the 1st place army was infantry heavy Imperial Guard, so I take all of the doom & gloom regarding "unbeatable" tournament armies with a massive grain of salt.
Whenever I read a bunch of Space Marine Codex rumors comments, I instantly grow a neckbeard. Does anyone have any advice for this, other than "be clam"?
I'm waiting for points costs before I get uptight about this... although it does seem like a cooler codex than CSM it's not going to break the game.
For friendly games, if you don't like something then you can sit down over a beer and make a house rule for a it. After all, look at the BOLS original content: it is all playtested, formatted and refined sets of house rules, and it is great.
Also, I "feel your pain" about waiting years for a codex. Don't forget how long Ork players had to wait. No one wants to see long overdue codexes like DE, Necrons, IG and the Inquisition keep getting pushed back but it's just an unfortunate reality.
Just for the hell of it, I'm going to reset the squat clock: "Squat."
Has anyone realised that space marines will also have bolt pistol/ccw/bolter combo that the chaos space marines do? It seems to be a common rant that people use up against chaos space marine players.
If they decided to do this to calgar, i think that for the necrons, the C'tan are gonna be valid choices for an army to take.
seriously though... god of war? mans a jackass. never buys me a drink, steals all the girls and puts whipped cream in peoples shoes.
@Sons of Russ
yeah your right the traits where broken. I think i would have liked to see a fixed version if at all possible but maybe it wasnt meh...
To be honest as for my initial statement they havent actually released revised 5th rules for all the known chapter masters so they might all be as hard as him... so i was being a little rash there. He does still sound a little overpowered to me but we shall see.
as far as homogny and creativity are concerned... I'm not entirely convinced by the rename a speicial character school of thought. I'm not all that fussed on IC's for relatively small skirmishy armies (which i see as being 1500-2000pts) so having to take one to get traits or whatever doesnt fill me with glee. A IC kit really would have been nice but yeah, i suppose if they cant fix the traits then this wouldnt really work either...shame.
Really i suppose it comes down to the flexibility of the codex when it comes to making an army individual so ill have to wait and see when it comes out to make my final judgement.
p.s. im not meaning to be reactionary or overly negative whith anything i say so sorry if it comes out that way.
@ hludwig
SM IC/SC's made for Apoc???
that sounds ridiculous!! datasheets??? even more so!!
why wud the characters be made for apoc???
Anon 11:34 wrote
"There are other, better games out there if you want to flex your nerd "tactics" muscles.
Or you could go join the armed forces and put your money where your mouth is...I hear they're in need of warm bodies right now."
So say we all, brother. So say we all!
@ Anon 12:40
Robert? are you serious? Robute, row-boo-te.
Besides Abbadon is far from Horus. As Abbadon said "Horus was a fool and a coward." Once the Cadian Gate is broken, Abbadon will know to deal with the Ultramarines chapter quickly before they form a bolstered defence of Terra. Abbadon is better than Horus if you forget. And Robute Gulliman held the entire Imperium together by himself, defending all flanks. Marneus just deflects a few ork raids or bug attacks.
@zarok
"Once the Cadian Gate is broken,bla,bla,bla..."
You must be joking, right?
It's been like 10,000, yup, TEN THOUSAND FRICKIN' YEARS and CADIA IS STILL THERE!
Abaddon must be THE most incompetent commander of all time.
But then again, he was an idiot before he turned to Chaos.
P.S.: He also lost 4 of the 5 stones of Vaul a.k.a. The Blackstone Fortresses, which are something like the Death Star from StarWars, to the Eldars...EPIC FAIL.
yup abaddon is pretty hard on the battlefield but has been a little less impressive strategically...
@ Aditza:
Yes, he pooched it BIG time...multiple times even.Mainly because the great omnipotent chaos god GW wanted him too...according to his(their) ultimate plan(s)...otherwise there would be no Imperium of man, and no game. Christ, I can't believe you folks are arguing about this, like the 13th crusade really happened, like he was frikin' Rommel or Monty or something...
Sweet, I hope they make a new Calgar mini with the Honor Guard.
"I am so horribly sick of marine fanboys missing a very large point to all the CSM players "whines". Your codex is ripe with new units, powers, chapter specific modifications to the force chart and to the way the army plays...ALL OF WHICH WERE TORN FROM THE CHAOS CODEX."
Sounds alot like the loyalist whining when the 3.5 chaos dex came out.
Guess what Mike, SM had a shit codex for a long time while chaos had the BEST codex ever written (competative wise, funwise, etc). The 3ed SM code was crap and the 4ed codex while better was not nearly as good/fun as the 3.5 CSM dex. I'm still not seing this new 5ed SM dex as even coming close to the 3.5 CSM dex (a dex where you didn't need a special IC to run your favorite style of army).
Point is, we'll probably never see a dex like that again, so perhaps it is time to move on?
@ Aditza
Why are you attacking Zarok?
Assuming it was real and something that mattered, the fact that Abbadon has been around for that 10,000 years killings countless numbers of people, that makes him pretty successful. According to 13th Crusade fluff, Chaos gained ground in the Cadian sector.
Not to mention no one is sure exactly what the pylons across Cadia do. Does Abbadon want to control them? Who knows. Cadia wont fall over night, or apparently over however much time in the last 10,000 years Abbadon has spent solely to taking Cadia. It ain't over yet.
Which gets back to OUR realism. If it ended, either way, that would be way less interesting than this constant struggle. So the end result is WE win. Unless, of course, we start attacking one another.
I.E., let's keep it civil.
WOO! Marine hate, go!
These posts are an absolute joy to read. I especially like the "there are better wargames out there" and "delivery system for their models" comments.
They're a company! Of course they're going to change things so that everyone wants the new and shiny! It doesn't mean that you can't have fun with it.
Personally, I think tournaments are a horrible idea, because they bring out all the social mysanthropes who have done naught but read the rules for every little loop hole. (I'm looking at you, people who want to have interchangable flight-stands for different lines of sight!)
Revel in it! Enjoy it! They're little metal and plastic men!
...and if you really want to play a game with tactics, planning and the need for forward thinking... go play Fantasy. Screw with charging angles for two and a half hours, then come talk to me.
mellr0, marines won't get a ccw as standard, just bolter and pistol.
I'm gonna laugh when all the marine players currently saying "stop the whining, marines need a buff" see the new IG codex with Leman Russ *squadrons* for single HS choices.
I still can't believe anyone thinks that Assault Termi's *Deserve* a 3+inv against both CC and shooting for their current 40pts.
With regards to the SC arguments about why they shouldn't be there, I think that given how small a force of space marines would be it wouldn't be uncommon to see some of the big names show up. Now I don't necessarily mean Marneus or Dante but it wouldn't be uncommon to see someone like Ragnar or Lysander. They are just company captains, they would only be in charge of something like 100 marines.
One thing I would like to see in terms of SC would be similar to the latest ork codex. Instead of an army encompassing special tactic they would give a bonus only to the squad they are attached to.
Id have to agree, for those of you who dont play Warhammer fantasy the characters are nuts, totally gamewinning and prove to be hilarious at times. I like the way GW is going with this, it brings a bit more character into the game (no pun intended)
@abhinav Jain 1:35
First finish your sentences, I hate it when people use sentence fragments so they have a way out later if they need one,"thats not what I meant..bla,bla". In case you haven't seen the latest White Dwarf there is a data sheet for Angron, Daemon Primarch of the World Eaters. I was just saying that GW seems to be putting the realy over the top stuff in Apocalypse now instead of tuning them down for regular games like they did in the past. Why must people just attack and not think about it first. And how many times must I say this, Jervis himself said they are working on Legion Codexes just like they did for BT,BA,DA. This codex is for renagade chapters not for the "Big Ten" Tratior Legions.
Lets not make a big deal of of Marneus until his point value comes out. The Rending Pony is awesom, but look at its cost....
@ Jervis himself said they are working on Legion Codexes
Yeah, thanks for pointing this out again. I'm sure those Legion books are going to be available in the next decade to finally balance out the new SM 'dex.
@ Lets not make a big deal of of Marneus until his point value comes out. The Rending Pony is awesom, but look at its cost....
It sounds like Marneus Calgar is actually more powerful than the joke Rending Pony, and at 250 points Calgar is a real bargain too.
Somewhere in the plains of Cadia
Abbadon: Calgar!!
Calgar: Abbadon!!
A: You have plagued me for the Last Time!
C: True, because today, you die!
A: *raises Daemon sword, charges*
C: WAIT, WAIT!!
A: *stops, confused* And why wait, loyalist weakling?
C: The gaunlets need a bit of time to power up...
A: ...
C: Comeon', stupid gaunlets...
A: ...
C: Almost there...
A: You. Have. Got. To... ARGGGH!
*Daemon sword had tried to bite Abbadon due to lack of bloodflowing*
A: *to himself* Stupid Infernal Sword! Sometimes I think the gods have abandoned me!
C: *to himself* Stupid chaos-damned Gaunlets! Finish charging already!
Nearby Eldar Farseerer: ... ... and this is why all Mon Keighs are stupid.
Nearby Eldar Autarch: Agreed. What should we do with them?
FS: Leave them alone. They'll kill each other in their little petty argument soon enough...
At: Agreed...
"It sounds like Marneus Calgar is actually more powerful than the joke Rending Pony, and at 250 points Calgar is a real bargain too."
forgive me if i'm wrong but i was under the impression there was no confirmed details about what Calgar's points would be, so far people have just been taking their best guess/estimates on what he may be compared to other chars.
Personally i have guard,tau and black templar armies myself so till BT's get an update (which in all fairness won't be any time soon cos it wasn't that long ago we got our codex compared to other races) all these space marine rumours aren't really going to bother me. Just means i'll have to re-think my approach when going against the marine player's in my group, nothing more.
Oh yeah and to risk repeating what others have said, so far all we're hearing are the +ive rumours about the marine codex, so far the only -ive rumours i think i've come across is scouts with lower bs/ws (welcome to the land of BT neophytes :) ) and the loss of traits.
In my experience when people get and read the new marine codex there will be more -ive changes that were never deemed "big" enough to hit the rumour mills. So sit back and wait, chances are we aren't seeing the big picture yet.
By Order of the Inquisitoral Lord Laski, Marneus Calgar (MC) is now to only be know as MC Hammer.
Also Abaddon does not exist. Cadia is fine, and all space marine legions are good, except the ones with mental health problems which we shall pity and help.
And Xenos are all bad, weak helpless things. See entrys on 'Grot' and 'Ripper' For more detail.
@anon 4:38
LOL.
It's funny how ppl start finding someone else to blame when theyre proven wrong.
It's GW's fault that that man/thing called Abaddon is an incompetent. But it's GW that made the fluff for countless other characters. And
theyre good or bad, courageous,smart or dumb, cunning or stubborn,etc. according tot theyre whims.
I was only answering because some ppl said that he is so Mighty and brilliant when clearly he is not.
Also it was meant as a teasing to ppl saying Long live Abaddon! Long live! i say also, because as long as he lives Cadia and the Imperium will endure;).
You must have seen in my previous post i was not comparing him with real life counterparts because it's not the case. It's a game. Please don't take it to seriously.
@ anon 6:00
I fail to see what you find "not civil" and "attacking whatever" in my post.
I do not think that just killing stuff makes someone succesfull.
Everyone in the 40k galaxy does that.
Sure, if he would have been Kharn, the orks or Necrons whose purpose IS to kill countless ppl than yes he would have been succesfull.
But he is not trying that. He is trying to build an Empire led by him .
And he failed for 10,000 years to do that.
And he can learn a thing or two from the ones mentioned above (except kharn ofc) about killing countless ppl/stuff.
I do agree with you that either way we win. It's a game with great miniatures and fluff and somewhat good gamplay to spend time from the harsh realities of life.
And beat the crap out of ppl ofc.
P.S.: I am joking about the last sentence. :)
P.P.S.: Just to annoy Abaddon lovers (wow that sounded,well, gay)
please note that the infamous Ghazghull has been much more succesfull in his Waaghs! in the couple of hundred years than Abaddon.
How's that to be bested by an Ork? ;)
@Zarok the Harbinger
Sure, me and my battlebrothers will bring the snacks....
I find this all quite amusing, each person claiming that they are under powered or over powered, its all moot. Clearly Marneus sounds hard, but its just one IC...
I can see why people get angry that Marines get the first (or nearly one of the first) new style codex to take advantage of the rules, but hey look at how many people play marines compared with the others, the size of the SM range is testament to that, its good business sense to appease the largest market first. Marneus gives the ultramarines or the default marines some character and fun, I look forward to the new codexs each with there own "super cheese character", that make special characters special not just ICs...
Hmmmn, I have been thinking about getting Marneus and starting an Ultra marines army for a while now. I would much rather rename him with an honor guard and paint them in my own color scheme. Now with this, it may be too good to pass up.
Too everyone concerned about balance just remember, whatever points I spend on special characters are points I don't have to spend on something else. Marines sell 50% of GW's total model sales. That's for all game systems. Yet you don't see people playing marines because they are the super uber list. People play marines because of the fluff and the imagery.
Unless any of you actually work at gw hq, why are any of you worrying about whats in the codex. Rumours are just that, rumours. I used to work for gw in the uk and i know for a fact that the powers that be spread half of the rumours so, stop winging and wait for the god damn book to come out. half of them will be bullshit, so stop going nuts about stuff non of you can confirm. If any of you come back and say "well my freind works for gw...." shut up and wait for it to be in black and white.
Nice long rant people.
I remember when the Necron Codex first came out, everyone was up in arms that GW had created 'an unbeatable army', they argued about the 3+ save and WBB but no-one said anything about Phase Out.
All the rumours just highlight 'increases' with the new list and overlook the 'setbacks' (Normally points increases)most forces will suffer to check the armies power.
Back to the Necron point, since the release of the "Unbeatable Army", how many 'Cron armies have you seen winning tournaments.
Everyone is suggesting waiting for the Marine Codex to actually come out, i suggest waiting till after your first dozen games against them, then decide if they're broken.
Grow up and adapt people.
Here's what I find frustrating:
It seems like whatever special little advantage one army gets to make it "cool" or "unique," Marines come out and end up getting the same thing.
Examples: Apothecaries now equal Painboys. 3+ invulnerable saves that once were territories of Wraiths(i.e. GHOSTS) and the Lord of Change (an ultra-powerful demon). Fast, open topped transports. And worst of all, for me, even though I don't even play Tau, the Smurfs now apparently have 2 (TWO!) ways to have a strength 10 AP 1 weapon. I loved that the Tau had the only 10/1 weapon in the game (outside Apocalypse, where it is more necessary for super powerful weapons). Yet for all their technological advancement, they can't keep up with GWs Smurflove.
what two ways would that be?
@ gringo...
true... i've beaten necrons with my eldar jetbikes, trait marines and daemons... it's either you outshoot the necrons or you take a heavy assault army and pray that your shock troops survive all the shooting IMHO.
I bet he can beat up Chuck Norris now.
Never, ever, ever, say that again.
Chuck Norris is a primarch. Pre-emperor. And in the grim darkness of the far future he waits.
Dammit Chuck Norris is waiting.
Long live Abaddon
Don't be a fool! Noone can bet up chuck norris!
personally, i am looking forward to the new veterans and droppod more than the ICs. The only ones I'll probably use are Sicarius, my company Captain, and the scout Sargent,and definitely not any non Ultramarine models,that's what different chapters are for
yeah... Shrike sounds great with fleet for an entire army... i use the rules for his shrike's wing on my 5-squad of assault command marines... so does Lysander i guess, with stubborn... but there's rly no other info on the other 10 SC's so still waiting for that...
Has anyone else noticed that most of the whiny, "oh my goodness, the game is now broken" comments come from anonymous users?
Its about time that vanilla marines get thrown a bone.
"It is basically the psychic power Warp Time,... and works with Marneus' shooting"
So that would make it like the psychic power, from the actual loyalist dex, Veil of Time?
As of August 2nd I have learned that two HQ's that augment a marine list only get one of the special augmentations. You can still take the other character but not his "bonus" to the army.
I have also learned that Pdro Cantor is... a monster. He is suppose to give every unit within 12" and extra attack per model. Very similiar to Ezekiel giving fearless to every unit within 12".
Now my question is this... if Cantor does give an extra attack does it apply to Drednaughts? I am envisioning a Furioso Dread with four attacks, five on the charge if the rumor about the weapon options on dreds is true. Even better might be the Iron Clad Dred with a 13 armour and the two dred CC weapons... perhaps I should quit while I'm ahead.
later, Tim Weston
If that's true we will see many asault armies :)...
Either jump pack armies or drop pod asault armies.
Very hard to decide between Shrike and Cantor tho' :)))
Especially if they cancel each other out...
And the Ironclad is teh sweetest thing if rumours are true.
i hope that Dark eldar and necrons get redone soon and demon hunters... and oh how many codexs havent been redone while the the space marines were redone oh.... 2 or so years ago? but congrats on your next new codex you flower children of GW.... dont worry any problems with it will be redone in your next codex due out in December of 2010 and for you necron and Demon hunter/witch hunters out there im sure youll get a nice one page faq soon...
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