Hi guys,
Games Day Chicago is over, and our Bothan spies tell us the following based on a review of Codex:Space Marines
In general, almost all of the latest round of rumors are correct. The codex is described as lavish, with a large color section, and clocking in at nearly 150 pages. Lets dive right into some of the details:
HQs
Master
Has well over 20 wargear options, and access to a once per game S:10 AP:1 Orbital Strike that is somewhat similar to the Witchhunter power.
Librarian
Leadership 10, and has an entire page of various powers to select from. Big news is the Psychic Hood which now has a range of 24" instead of infinite.
Master of the Forge
Access to the Conversion Beamer, an old-school Rogue Trader era weapon with a 72" range that grows more powerful the greater the distance to its targets. At its top end, it is S:10 AP:1 Small Blast.
Elites
Terminators
Available in squad sizes of 5-10. Stormshields for Assault Termys confirmed as 3+ invulnerable vs all attacks (assault and shooting).
Techmarines
Has a power allowing you to improve the cover save of a single piece of ruins in your deployment zone by +1. Access to the Thunderfire Cannon, which is artillery and has multiple fire modes based upon 4 small blast markers. One of the fire modes makes its target count as being in difficult ground next turn. ~neat!
Honor Guard
These bad boys have access to "Relic blades" which are +2S powerweapons. Their squad leader is the "Company Champion" who is required to direct attacks vs enemy ICs if possible. ~cool!
Troops
Tactical Squads
Available in 5-10 men. Squads of ten grant access to Flamer/Multimelta/Missile Launcher/Heavy Bolter for FREE. Squads less than 10 may not purchase any special or heavy weapons. ~Heed the words of the Codex Astartes indeed!
Scouts
WS/BS:3; the heavy bolter option has access to Hellfire rounds.
Land Speeder Storm
Scout transport land speeder nullifies enemy teleport homers and icons within 6". Enemy deepstrikers within 12" roll double scatter. Enemy units who are assualted from it are at -2 Leadership.
Combat Tactics
New marine special rule allows you to voluntarily fail any morale check for any unit in the army.
ICs
Shrike (Raven Guard)
Grants the entire army Fleet instead of Combat Tactics. He has rending lightning claws and Infiltrate.
Cantor (Crimson Fists)
Grants the entire army Stubborn instead of Combat Tactics. Sternguard Veterans count as scoring units.
~I'm thinking of two things. First is the wailing and gnashing of teeth that will ensue as folk's 6-man las-plas squads are consigned to history. Second is the awesome combos Combat Tactics and ATSKNF will allow. Things such as taking shooting casualties, then falling back out of assault range to blast away at assaulters comes to mind. I'm sure there are many, many other mean tactics this will allow. What do you guys think?
194 comments:
So does that mean my Blood Angels Assault Vets with storm shields get 3+ saves or do they have the old versions?
Traits gone? :(
Gah, can't believe I missed the seminars.
Anything on the points cost of these bad boys?
The 5th edition book shows SM squads able to split into 5-man groups, is this wrong?
Also unmodified dread is now 125 pts.
The cost of the entire army hopefully has been increased a good deal,
and with the Free 10 man squad weapons, there will be virtually no more Dark Angels and Blood Angels Players, they'll most likely use green/red painted Ultramarines
I haven't been around that long, but this is a pretty big change isn't it? All sorts of new abilities and units re-defined.
WoW that all sounds good saw your guys shirt at games day you guys rock even though games day Chicago sucked
keep up the good work
Now what I'am going to do with my Dark angels?
They are going to suck.
I hope GW adds a third FAQ.
You know, I have been thinking about converting to Raven Guard for a long time...this might be what I have been waiting for. Maybe it's time to drop some of my Necrons and stock up...Although, in 5ED Necrons can be even sweeter than before; at least until the codex.
@ Now what I'am going to do with my Dark angels?
Sounds as if the Dark Angels are green with envy. ;)
re: shrike, what exactly would rending lightening calws do in 5e anyway?
Thy provided a small buff in 4e at least, now they do nothing, hope they didn't count those as costing anything.
Um well as long as they still have "and they shall know no fear" im happy
I can hear a lot more cries of cheese than anything else. 3+ invulnerable saves for Termies, even more spiffy new special rules, free special weapons, my bro's face is already turning red. I mean thats a lot of shiney new stuff considering the SM got a new codex not too long ago, get new models all the time and other codexies are multiple editions old now.
Oh and whoever asked about splitting into 5 man groups, its called Combat Squads, been around since the Dark Angels codex was still rumours.
And traits are probably gone but thats been rumoured for a good long time now.
Personally I wonder how the Honor Guard will work and what that will mean for the Ultramarines Honor Guard, might actually make me take them for a change though it would suck if I couldn't get anymore models to fill out the squad and if I couldn't use the Ancient.
I guess new techmarine is more 'siege engineer'? I would have liked to seen a redo of the repair ability, but still sounds cool.
Re: the Scout Storms jammer ability- imagine what that will do to demon units that need an icon to DS or else destroyed >:D
@Um well as long as they still have "and they shall know no fear" im happy
Huh?! Seriously, was that ever actually a serious concern for anyone with any real familiarity with 40K?
Time for everyone not playing Space Marines to panic and either put all their non-Space Marine armies on eBay and change to Space Marines or quit the game altogether. The sky is falling, the game is broken, the Emperor is failing, cats and dogs are living together, all aspirins are alike, you can lose weight while you sleep and nothing holds like dippity do.
Alternatively, one can just relax and continue to have fun with the coolest miniatures on Earth.
so nothing on the salamanders rumors?
Your hopeless devotion and blatent disregard for the ability for other people to enjoy the game is noted.
Unfortunatly for everyone, this game is multiplayer game. If its no fun to play against other people, than in the end the game has failed.
This spacemarine list is, in no way, going to be fun to play against.
Finally! The Marines become the elite army they truly are! No more being outdone for pure awesomeness by chaos and eldar! And yes, the Marines seem crazy over-powered, but just wait until the other armies get their 5th update. I'm sure everyone else will match them, and balance things out.
As for now, we will just be back to the "Everyone has ultramarines and wins all the time" scenarios.
so, are the honor guard required to have a company champion, or is it an optional upgrade?
"Finally! The Marines become the elite army they truly are! No more being outdone for pure awesomeness by chaos and eldar! And yes, the Marines seem crazy over-powered, but just wait until the other armies get their 5th update. I'm sure everyone else will match them, and balance things out.
As for now, we will just be back to the "Everyone has ultramarines and wins all the time" scenarios."
danger, sarcasm detector has overloaded!
I think I am done with Games Workshop. Why should I continue to play a game where all they do is upgrade one army repeatedly and more quickly than any of the others, while those others are thrashing and wailing and have errors in them from the new edition of the game, that have yet to be FAQ'd.
because at one point or another you enjoyed it?
Like the DA player up there, I just hope my Blood Angels get another FAQ when this codex comes out. We're puny compared to these new "ubermarines"
to everyone who is complaining about the new Space Marines: just chill ppl...
the new SM are the first army to have been developed purely for 5Ed...
so just wait for the other armies to get their updates like Space Wolves, Dark Eldar, Imperial Guard, Necrons, Black Templars, Inquisition... and so on...
don't panic now... cuz if you play another army then you are gonna get something good soon enough... :)
Unless you play grey knights :p
Technically, Daemons were the first army to be designed for 5e., given all the references in the codex to things that only exist in 5e rules.
Also, would anyone not take Cantor, or at least a "counts-as" version? Stubborn for free on all units, plus yet more scoring units? Yes please. I know how annoying Sisters can be with the Books of St. Lucius, with Marines it'd just be worse.
To me "soon enough" usually isn't an unspecified number of years away
lol... rumours been floating that daemonhunters and witchhunters are gonna be in one codex... who knows... the 'inquisition' forces might get more options, like LRC's and LRR's (hopefully it can transport 10 Terminators!!!) for the grey knights and SoB... or who know what else?
maybe stern isnt the sissy he is right now and gets better rules so ppl actually play him :p
@ anon
well... more like within the next year and half anyways....
gonna be lots of 40k goodness...
I think the rumors you've heard a wee bit optimistic.
sweet so raven guard are going to be better assaulters than blood angels.... awesome. Looks like I'll be using red raven guard
If GW can get all the codices updated and 5th ed ready in 2 years time it might placate some of those who are frustrated that marines always get the goodies first. But with the talk of the fantasy stuff rumored for '09 I am doubtful that 40K stuff will be worked up to all armies in that short a time frame.
So yes, marine players with the shiney new dex will be kings, and will likely be there for the next 4-5 years IMHO given past performance.
The models are great, the game is fun, but just goes to slowly for getting people all on a competitive and level playing field.
While I applaud GW for making marines the real badasses they truly are in this new codex, they had better cost a truckload of points to maintain the balance of the game.
Otherwise, I feel that every man and his grox will be fielding marines in a tournament setting.
well.. i'm hoping it all happens within the next year and half...
from what i've heard.. space wolves in december, followed by dark eldar and imperial guard in first half of '09...
and then again, its a recurring thing - one month for 40k, fantasy next month, LoTR month after then back to 40K...
maybe the SM codex is the first step in really shining up all the armies... who knows... i just prefer to wait and see how other armies turn out rather then just complain (no offense) about the flagship army of 40K getting a codex which just might get a serious edge over other armies... and for that... just learn and figure out ways to beat them... and remember... more kick-ass units = higher points value right?
:p
Well... Looks like the Dark Angels are gonna be sitting in the closet for a loooooooong time.
>:(
Unless DA and BA are FAQed again, I kindly ask:
Why the hell do these Librarians have Ld10, when ours got measly Ld9 ?!
Why the hell weapons free for having to take extra men (as if taking extra bolters doesn't do ANY good!) ? This should NEVER occur in Warhammer 40.000 in my opinion. Everything should have its cost!
Why the hell all that permanent obsession with special characters, isn't DIY what made the previous codex interesting ?!
Why the hell 5,6,7,8,9,10-man squads, when DA/BAs got Combat Squads rule with just 5 or 10 men, on the ground that "it is written that way in the Codex Astartes" - Roboute Guilliman has sat down and rewrote it or what ?!
Why the hell WS/BS5 on Venerables, when DA/BAs got only 4s ? What makes UM Venerable "more Venerable" ?!?!
etc. etc.
Now I am sorry for the inflammatory post, but I am really upset with this new "I-am-SM-so-screw-you" codex.
BTW, even when this comes out, I am still playing Blood Angels, not some 'Red Marines', because I loved and love Blood Angels...but still I call it unfair. I'm not envious about the Redeemers, variable squad sizes, Troops Scouts - actually I am perfectly happy with WS/BS4 Elite scouts, even though it is a blatant rules inconsistency IMO - scout bikers, even those stupid 3+ invulnerable Stormshields, have them all. But at least BASIC things should be the same, damn)
No wailing and gnashing of teeth here over the "loss" of 6-man las/plas, never really used them due to having to "park" your lascannon or not fire it, it seemed like a waste of points to have a plasma gun just sitting there, turn after turn, with nothing to shoot at. All hail the 10-man las/plas (or even better, 10-man las/melta), "combat squadding" into two actually useful units!
The rest of the stuff sounds good, but I imagine the points tax is going to be pretty hefty on some of the shiny new toys, which unfortunately will relegate them to "gimmick" status. Hopefully not.
The orbital strike thing sounds both fluffy and tasty, but I imagine with potential scatter you'll want to use it carefully (if at all, depending on deployment scenario).
The only "cheese" I'm lamenting the loss of is the 5-termie/2 AC squad, which was really the best "force multiplier" SMs have (had). I'm not seeing an equivalent force multiplier in the rumors, either -- except maybe the special ammo types for the sternguard. But even that is no substitute for making your opponent roll more saves from a high volume of fire, and quite honestly, if there is one thing you need in today's infantry-heavy 5E battlefield, it's a way to produce maximum fire volume to exterminate high numbers of enemy models quickly.
Sad to hear about the psychic hood's new range. Looks like it's inquisitor lord time to reliably shut off that damnable doom/guide/fortune faucet in the safest, most efficient manner possible (that is, from across the board). Perhaps with the new range it will be an "off switch" as opposed to a dice-off? I'm guessing the range is intended as a nerf, though, so that won't happen. Looks like farseers just got a whole lot more effective against marines.
Now, if only the techmarine could shut down a holofield the end of mechanized Eldar's reign of terror might be at an end. As it stands now, though, it looks to continue. :)
(Note for the Humor Impaired: this comment contained several little barbs at the current "King of Cheese" army, the Eldar. These were not meant to be taken seriously and/or personally. As mech Eldar requires intelligence to play right, I'm guessing this won't be an issue, but I thought I'd include this disclaimer for those, "But I play Eldar because I like their fluff!" fanboys -- whom should, by the way, just stop it with that bag of crap, because no one believes is anyway. Seriously.)
:)
Had to delete the first post of this comment because I noticed a glaring typo or two, which I couldn't suffer to live.
2 abhinav jain:
"don't panic now... cuz if you play another army then you are gonna get something good soon enough... :)"
hmm, soon enough ... you mean like ... in 2-5 years from now, right ? (ironic grin) ...
"maybe stern isnt the sissy he is right now and gets better rules so ppl actually play him :p"
Interestingly, Stern is speaking in a "points-wise perspective" better than a generic Grand Master ... he costs about the same, has less wounds, yes, but he has that rule that allow him to reroll something in a turn (eg. a saving throw) and has truckloads of wargear and psychic power already in his cost, so ... I don't know why GK players don't play him (I know why I would not, because I am not obsessed with special characters involved in any 1000-points frontier skirmish, but as for the others ?) ...
And thus, all hope and semblance of game balance that so many people hoped for with the release of 5th edition cried out in agony, and was suddenly silenced.
Unless basic tac squad marines are 18pts each at least, why the hell should people use any other SM codex, including Chaos?
I still see Eldar and Orks as being stronger than this new marine codex. Orks really set the bar high for leetest to beetest, and the specialist masters that are Eldar still will clean house provided they are played by a careful, smart general.
Maybe I'm alone in thinking this.
RTM
Well I'll carry on playing 2nd ed then....
I always wonder about these lovely people who start fussing when a new Codex for Space Marines comes out. The SM's always start out as "super uber" when a new edition emerges. Later when the other codexes are released, the SM's are brought back down to earth and get killed by everyone from grots to guardsmen. They do the SM's first becasuse they are the largest selling army. By the time your particular codex comes out, you should already know how to kill off the marines and you will get new toys to do it with. The only people that should ever complain about codexes are the Dark Eldar players.
If you are wondering, I play every army but Chaos and Deamons. I play DIY marines, all Sisters army, and IG without tanks.
By god, SM hatters begining to cry and the codex it's not even released.
It's fine to look at the new shiny toys only but likely most of them will be too expensive to be effective as the sternguard (20pts fine, 25 too expensive for a power armour unit without extra survavility like thousand sons).
Also more posibly than not, nerfed scouts at the same point cost; with BS3 too much innefective to use snipers that cost too much.
I'll wait till the codex to make any more acusation about overpowering, becouse rumors usually only say the good thing but forget the bad ones.
I likezz it!
I was pondering which SMs should be my next army and this really makes me go loyalist. Might be also that I'm just an Imperialist bastard. Ah, well, time to bring Crimson Fists onto the local battlegrounds.
Well with rumours that the Sisters, let alone the Grey Knights and the Inquisition won't get an update till 2011-12. And that by then there'll probably be VIth Edition in the next few months after their release (Which many pessimist say will be a horrible merger of the two codices with many troops missing or nerfed and unfluffy mixed =][= forces the only competitive way to play).
I guess my sisters will simply be 'count as' Marines with my Cannoness as either a 'count as' Cantor or whoever that Sallie guy is.
So, who's up for a game?
Does the article really mean multimeltas are one of the free options for Tactical squads, or should it be meltaguns? Otherwise the free special weapon is prescribed, while there's a choice of one from three free heavies?
"Honor Guard
These bad boys have access to "Relic blades" which are +2S powerweapons. Their squad leader is the "Company Champion" who is required to direct attacks vs enemy ICs if possible"
Oh, a whole squad of almost Emperors Champions. My Black Templars are a bit envious right now...
Sounds like the usual codex-creep. I am confident that GW make all other codexes catch up sooner or later. How to make a game last six turns with the all increasing power is the new challenge :)
Dvastator:
"Later when the other codexes are released..."
Yes, sure, again - get your ass bashed for 2-5 years until MAYBE your codex gets done. :-/
"The only people that should ever complain about codexes are the Dark Eldar players."
Oh, that's funny you should say that, because in our gaming group, there is a guy, who can regularly PWN almost anyone with his Dark Eldar, who still use this 10-year old Codex. So perhaps, Dark Eldar might not need the update THAT much, they just need new minis (that's for sure) and perhaps more competent players to command them in the first place!
Free flamers & multimeltas confirmed? Mmmm mmm mmm, daddy gon' have hisself a barbeque of a time in 5th...
(yes Salamanders totally talk like stereotypical rednecks shut up)
quit the nerd rageing you damn dirty neckbeards, goog god it's almost as bad as the world of warcraft forums in here, harden the fuck up people.
now, with these confirmations I think I can let the loss of traits slide >:) though the points for the models are gonna shoot right up : /
*thud* (feints in happiness)
Looks a bit too good to be true, and whilst some of that does sound disgustingly good, I'd want to know how much these options are going to cost, as let's be fair - a squad of 3+ Inv Termies aren't going to be cheap.
I could give off the usual guff about Loyalists getting all the fun toys, but I'll stick to my Orkses and be done with it.
Sorry guys, I'm gonna have to side with Zamone on this one. Granted, I've never played WoW, let alone seen the forums, the nerdrage in these comments is 'arder than a Monolith's living armor.
Seriously, unless you guys are playing in official tournaments, why not bend together some house rules and use the new Marine stats with your non-vanilla forces? If you can't have fun, don't play the game!
Zamone is damn right.
Less QQ, more PewPew.
If you're crying over this codex, you must've died when Eldar came out? I'm liking this codex lots, because of the fun options it allows.
Do you know how did the Polish championship finals looked like? Eldar vs. Eldar, Eldar vs. Chaos, Eldar vs. Chaos, Eldar vs. 'nids, Eldar vs. Eldar. Hell no.
Wish they didn't move away from the DIY ideas and developed a more complex traits system and possibly a system to build characters, like the old VDRs.
I can only imagine what teeth gnashing is going on other forums.
Wow, it sounds a bit over the top. Hopefully that's true only on paper and not on the game board.
I'm actually kind of surprised that the scouts are dropping in WS and BS, but if it makes them cheaper in points i'm all for it.
(sarcastic) Good to see in about 2 or 3 months time the SM reference sheet in the new rule book will be next to worthless. I don't know why they put them in there anyway, it's as bad as that wargear book GW made, the new Tau book was released shortly after it and made the wargear book outdated straight away.
Also anybody else notice the SM Captain has a 4+ invunerable save on the reference sheet (Pg 290). If this is to do with the Captain getting the rumoured halo in the next codex, why didn't they also reduce the WS/BS of the scouts on the reference sheet???
The main reason I mostly model and not play anymore is because of socially retarded power gamers drunk on the power of their lists. No matter what the rules are, they will find the new loophole to exploit.
So the problem for me is not the rules but the culture.
Hmm interesting rules, this will breath new life into my Ultramarine army and ALSO make it more interesting for me to kill my buddy's spacemarine armys heh heh
am i worried about facing 5th ed marines? HELL NO
bring on the challenge of this new army, ill crush it with the might of my Ulthwe Eldar :D
some people need to take a chill pill.... even though the sky is falling... WITH DROP PODS!
Enjoy your uber-troopers while you can. I don't care how many free weapons you have the 9 Russ ill be able to field in the new guard codex will wipe the floor.(I don't care they'll cost like a 1000pts) Either way you've got about a year (until drop pods and thunderhawks screw things up again).
Ever notice that everyone is so selfish and never happy for others?
I'm a Dark Angels player and even though this stuff sounds awesome - my Dark Angels will always be played as Dark Angels. They are my main army. They've been my baby for 15 years now and will continue to be even if they lose out on a couple of cool rules and models.
At the same time I am totally pumped on some of these new toys on the battlefield - like the new landspeeder and the techmarine abilities (they are still struggling to make the techmarine worth taking - which he never is in tournament play anyway...)
These are exciting developments. Space Marine armies are going to be more varied. That's a good thing. The special characters dramatically change the way the armies play - possibly more than some of the traits... That's a good thing too - for Space Marine players AND their opponents.
Games development is a tinkering process. You don't stick with something because that's "just the way it is" if no one is using it or if you feel you've stumbled upon a truer representation of what should be (or one that is dramatically more fun!)
If you want a perfectly balanced game with completely stagnant forces then play Chess. I'll stick to 40K.
Selfishly...any more Iron Hands rumors?
If you think 6-man laz sqauds are gone...I have a lot of 9 man squads where one is a terminator, one a special weapon, and one heavy weapon :(
For what its worth, Marines are also moving north of 15 pts per model, just as most of the horde armies are getting cheaper (see orks, and ongoing rumors of 4pt guardsmen).
They are definately making the Emperor's golden boys badass, but they will be heavily outnumbered in almost all circumstances.
Always remember, almost anything is fair if it is costed correctly.
Does anyone really think that GW would make a Codex for an Army( Dark Angels and Blood Angels)and then not FAQ for them when regular the Regular SM Codex comes out? GW is a business, and it would be stupid for them to release a boat load of new models and not allow DA and BA players to partake of all the new goodness. I.E. the new landraiders, scout bikes and landspeeders, and etc. There will be some rules that will translate over in FAQ's most likely storm shield saves and psychic hoods and librarian powers and other things won't. Everybody just needs to sit back and wait until the actual codex comes out to see what will really happen.
This happens everytime GW releases some new edition of something ALA 5th ED rules. Look how many people were unhappy now, most love the rules.
Well ... that was an interesting read!
I think that I will have to really compare the new SM codex to the DA one before deciding how to field what. Personally, I love Belial and the DA 'dex and unless I switched to a totally different army, doubt I will be changing over.
With the emphasis in 5E on closing into combat within the first turn, I don't think that the 24" range of Psychic Hood is going to be that big of a deal.
I love the fact that you can now three choices for a great CC oriented force: assemble a "vanilla" assault SM army of your chosing, or you can select one of the Codex (fluff-oriented?) forces of DA or BT.
At the very least, it will be nice to see SM players with some of the variety available to Eldar players in terms of ONE codex being able to seamlessly tailor to SEVERAL chapters. Ideally, this should lead to fluff-oriented players coming up with some really interesting options.
I play for fun, not a tourney player at all, and rarely play pickup games these days, so I'm not worried about power gamers taking hold of the new 'dex and wringing as much killy-ness as they can from it.
* Sorry, I meant to say BA, not DA when referring to CC oriented SM armies. =P
Ben:
Yes, except that these "SEVERAL chapters tailored in a single codex" are really that particular chapters only if you take a preset special character into each and every single battle, no matter the size, no matter the fluff reasons.
DIY = REAL variety, freedom in armybuilding and invention.
Traits hidden only in a named guy = boring - all armies of that chapter practically the same. Not mentioning the tourneys, where you can already see dozens of players contesting "whose Eldrad is more of an Eldrad" ... 8-(
My five cents...
Yay! Librarians are useful!
I hope Deathwing gets some of this
Sounds a bit much... if the points costs don't keep the model count down then you are going to see a LOT of Marine armies in the future. I know that people expect the best selling models to get good rules but has it ever occurred to GW that maybe the reason the Marines sell best is because they have the best rules?
"The main reason I mostly model and not play anymore is because of socially retarded power gamers drunk on the power of their lists. No matter what the rules are, they will find the new loophole to exploit."
You must play in the Southeast then. There's a couple of jackasses that make going to a tournament a real crap shoot. You might get three fun games or you might get two and one experience that will leave you wishing for a root canal instead. :)
Doom! Epil Fail! "Game over man.... Game OVER!". I quit!
Hardly.
Look, it's like that older 'favorite' sibling getting a new Lexus as a gift from mom & dad... it pisses you off and makes you feel neigh worthless, but in your heart-of-hearts, you can't say you didn't see it coming.
And all the wile the folks promise that "Someday, you too can have a Lexus from us... unless we see something shiney and get distracted".
Nothing else to do but take the hand-me-down Chevy, fix it up as best you can... and use your second class citizen status as an emotional crowbar with the parents.
I'll stick with my Renegade Marines... thanks anyways. if I lose, it's with dignity.
As an DYI SM player, I like most of the revisions. However, I hope there's something for us DYI players to compensate for all the named chapter special characters and loss of traits (apparently).
Also, nerfing the psychic hood is obviously due to massive b*tching from Eldar players and should be termed the "Make Eldrad a major pain in the @$$ again" rule, since now he can just hide out in some far corner of the board and always get his powers off. That sucks.
@ Anon july 26th 1:51pm
Coolest miniatures on earth...you mean I should go and play Infinity?
LOL Curoi
lemme guess are u a younger sibling...?
Honestly im a 35yr old dork just like all the rest of us that play this game and hide in our homes and paint our little dolls...were dorks thats what everybody else that isnt into the hobby thinks as well.
Who cares about the rules change seriously is anyone surprised this game has been updated and rebuilt continually its endless are you still playing are u still painting why? after all the changes your still here WHY? Get real; points costs go up for models I doubt that GW is about one thing MONEY and how to get it without too much bitching from its community thats why they continue to change things you can only alter a completed model so much before u just have to go out and buy another box set because you cant have this weapon or this upgrade anymore doesnt matter if you already have an army its now defunct WYSIWYG ensures GW can continue to sell box after box of plastic because once youve put it together you sure as shit dont wanna tear it apart do you? So all the new toys and new models are a necessity and your older models will just gather dust. This game is about what? strategy, skill,hobbying,all of these or just parts its people that have jumped into this game that bitch and complain about what you have and what I dont whats the point of it why complain whats it gonna do make you feel better that you bitched and got your opinion out there? I mean really play the codex beat it or loose to it; will you quit playing give up all your paints all your models just because Johnny marine got a bunch of updates look at all the MMORGs out there that continually update themeselves to provide a unique and interesting challenge to people that have been playing for years to keep the content rich and keep people coming back. I guarantee I wouldnt still be playing if the old VDR rules were in effect or if they kept half the BullSpit theyve tried in past editions im not going to try to quote specifics theres too many.
Ive played since Rogue trader and ive played in GW tournys i play in home games I attend Adepticon every year and will be at the Oct. GD in Chicago this year next year im going down south for a couple tournys I have an old Death guard army thats now pure nurgle and just started rebuilding a new demon army with all the old models I had saved for my Death guard until they nerfed CSM and gave them only generic demons and of course Ive got I dont know how many space marines still on sprues that ive collected clear back to Rogue trader theyve sat until i was comfortable with my modeling and painting to put together and well till I finally liked the SM codex now I dont know its just another update and we will have to wait another 2yrs minimum GUARANTEED for all the other armys to catch up so until then no one will know where thier army stands because every battle until all updates are live is nothing more then a beta test you cant justifiy anykind of a win until all armys are equally advanced into the new rule set. So what do we do? well we do exactly what GW wants us to do we are all in one way or another employed for free by GW we are thier beta testers we play thier game give them our feedback and hope just HOPE for them to hear us. Wheres the game headed will it be here in 10 more years will it disappear with the technological era thats quickly wiping out almost all great hobbys who knows I guess its up to all of us gamers and hobbyists out there to keep playing keep the game alive and keep searching for that one and final rule set that will keep all of us content and all of us satisfied. Until then teach your kids teach your neighbor your coworker your grandma I dont care teach whoever will listen how interesting and rewarding this hobby can be keep trying to spread the word. Im tired of playing the same old people this game needs to continue to reinstill the interest of the younger crowds to ensure its future otherwise theirs going to be nothing left of it but Dawn of War noobs running around and we all know how sad that would be.
Wow rant over.................
Anonymous 10:03 AM
Librarians with Veil of Time and 4+ invulnerable save have always been useful AFAIK...well, more like nigh unkillable motherf****s.
I have seen either Chaplain + jump Librarian or Master + jump Librarian in virtually every vanilla SM list I encoutered in 4th.
I have to agree with all the people keeping a level head about the new dex - I just doubt that GW would go ahead and abandon the hundreds of people that collect other races in favour of one army. I mean, do they want less customers? Its a hell of a risky thing to do, so my money's on those predicting a major points hike.
Just to clarify about the sniper scouts not being useful anymore because of BS/WS 3.
Unless they change the way the SM sniper rifle works, it hits on 2+ and wounds on a 4+ regardless of BS and Toughness.
If they make the scouts cheaper because of the lower stats, then I'm happy, cause my sniper unit will be just as effective but cost less.
By the sounds of what I have seen written above me, this codex is not really going to please anyone except victory hungry gamers. The lack of traits will take all the fun and personalisation out of the old codex, and non-SM players won't have any fun being hammered reapeatedly by some inexperienced store kid.
That said, if there are other possibilities for personalisation, and if the points costs are hiked up to what they should, maybe it won't be quite so bad...
wow, free heavy weapon that tacs on the move never use anyway. Why the hell people think that's overpowered?
GW may be irritating, but they aren't stupid. They obviously know what a huge effect massively overpowering one army will have, so I'm going with the guys who predict a large points hike too.
I disagree on traits. The folks who abused them the most WERE the powergamers.
For every one fluffy dude who build a cool balanced army, there were 10 who took great traits (tankhunting devs as elites..anyone) and as their downside took no allies...
I've seen it a thousand times. Traits were well intentioned and great for narrative gaming, but not balanced at all in the hands of a tournament player.
As I said back in May, Space Marines play an entirely different game than all the other races.
Still think that tourneys are broken now? Still want to limit to single-type heavy choices?
Yeah, didn't think so,..
I agree, Librarians with the Veil of Time power are quite nice. Fear and Fury is good, I guess, but just not as satisfying as driving some Iron Haloed biker Librarian into the enemy's elite. If anyone has some gouge on the new powers, I would be really interested to find out about them. I hope Veil of Time stays, with the increasing prevalence of Eternal Warrior, and similar rules, the loss of the force weapon to cast a combat buffing spell isn't such a big deal since you have to do most of your wounds the old fashioned way anyway.
Aside from that, I really like what I see so far- LD 10 on the psyker still makes them useful, but the psychic hood did need to be toned down. The 24 inch range seems like a nice, common sense limitation on them, and most people use Librarians for shock combat as well as psychic support, so the bad guys will really have to hide their psykers to avoid that four foot sphere of influence. You put two Librarians on the table, and you can cover most of the board. And I'm sorry if I don't feel bad that the Tyranids and the Eldar will be able to more effective shut down psykers than the Space Marines!
As for the other rumors, they are really exciting to me as well. I don't really see anything that broken, especially with Big Red dropping hints that Marines will soon cost more than fifteen points each. Compare that to the CSM, who don't have as much whiz-bang cool stuff, but all have CCW, Bolt Pistol, and Bolter. I think people underestimate how huge that is.
Something I was thinking about as I perused the rumors here was the possibility of a massive artillery army for Space Marines! I was thinking about two masters of the forge with conversion beamers, three techmarines with thunderfire cannons, and three whirlwinds. It would give you five pieces of fortified cover to dump your basic tacticals in, and then eight indirect templates EVERY TURN. So I could definitely see a heresy style Marine seige army being a possibility, which is pretty awesome. Hell, you could probably fit that in 1500 points, even with fifty non-mounted Marines! With 3+ cover saves backed up by that much ordo. Shudder.
Like someone else mentioned, I'm a little disappointed that they couldn't work out the repair aspect of Techmarines so well, but then again it was always kind of a tough mechanic to integrate into the game. Get it? Hahaha, the wit! Failing that though, having them be the siege experts of the chapter is a clever move that I can appreciate.
As for Terminators getting a big power boost- is it such a big deal? Assault Termis are still not going to be that great I think, unless you can drop them directly unto and objective to contest it (remember they can't claim it).
I like the changes. They affect my two armies in different ways. My alaitoc pathfinders are going to be on the watch for dragonfire rounds and infiltrating scouts. Still, I trust in the new power of the pathfinder long rifle to sort out those problems.
For my Iron Ravens, who knows? There is still too much in the air. Things look fantastic as yet, but I am really curious about the Apothecaries and what changes have been made to them as I was a 'purity above all' guy.
OMFG...
As much as I'm liking these new rules, I'm still feeling kinda guilty about how left-behind Chaos is now...
BTW, remind me, who wrote the new Marine book? Jervis? Gav? Alessio?
Well, cool.
I just hope that they update the Blood Angels codex so that it fits with this codex. And if they do, my assault vets will be nigh unstoppable ;)
Scouts nerfed? Please clarify.
I've always included scouts in my army, cheap and useful. Dropping the WS/BS to 3 makes fluffy sense, since they aren't full fledged marines yet. BUT, snipers on the other hand should probably be a little more trained than the other scouts. Hopefully the points will be adjusted to reflect this, I would hate to see the scout/snipers lose WS/BS without also dropping in cost.
As for all of the "broken" whining, I am happy with all of the changes. I play Mortifactor SMs and Eldar, seems like I'll be on top with either one.
which chaos would that be? CSM or Daemons?? and why do you think they are left-behind?? don't ehy already have awesome rules??
i play daemons a lot at my store and they are all just kick-ass... as for CSM.. do you just play regular CSM or additional Khorne/Slaanesh/Nurgle/Tzeentch marines??
for any1 who thinks the 5th Ed SM are over-powered... wait for the codex to come out... go through it looking for how you can beat this supposedly godly army and then make any comments about marines being overpowered...
as for others talking abt points hike, i wouldnt mind a points hike for my marines... but think abt this... GW is using the BA and DA codexes as templates for the new ones... with combat squads and so on and so forth... so the codexes are going to be similar stat-wise but play-wise... BA/DA/BT/SW are DIVERGENT CHAPTERS!! if all the marine armies were gonna be the same then whats the point of playing them... and plz wait for the FAQ's to come out in october...
and if you think that the new marines are gonna be this kick-ass army and you are not gonna be able to beat them... sorry to say but it looks like you don't have enough confidence in your army(ies).
I'm glad that you can still take squads of 10 Termies. I was afraid it would go down to 5 max.
I think the Marnies will need this boost to keep up with the Orks. As for most other armies, they'll all get their updates in good time.
Scouts BS: it gets worse! Sniper rifles don't hit on 2+! Read the 5th ed rulebook. The new sniper rules say that you have to hit with your BS, wound on 4+, but the sniper rifle is rending and pinning. Also is better against vehicles. So BS3 is worse for scoutsnipers.
All get if you have space marines codex army not so get for every one else who wont get all the new bits a frist
Why does it sound like the Space Marine codex will work better for many Chaos Space Marine Legions than the CSM codex?
Hell, look at Iron Warriors, this codex seems almost tailor made for them.
This is great for player of space marine codex but not that great for the other codex use that will have to wait for the new stuff
Everyone is all agagah over the 3+ inv. save for Termies. Yet everywhere there'll be 4+ cover saves so in actual fact it isn't that huge of a deal. The resulting points cost is going to balance it out, hopefully! Or else you'll see CC Termies in every other list! I know I used to eat my buddies CC Termies with my Grey Knights so they weren't that great and needed a boost. Did you see them all over? No
Marines have a drawback and it is that they are a non specialised force.
Orcs will beat SM in close combat and will make a good battle at range.
Nids have too good MCs, armour saves of 2+ have to be restricted to Toughness 5 or less models or it becomes too good making the missile launcher almost useless (the weapon that fluff wise carry most of the imperium and chaos forces).
Also with the new outflank rules genestealers are very dangerous even with the new rending rules.
Eldar, well eldar always have good armies. At least the latest ones are not as overpowered as the 1st and 2nd editions where.
I have the feeling that Eldar runes will be nerfed to 24" next codex along with the psychic hoods.
I think, I'll carry over wargear updates from the new codex to my templars, other then that not really worried about anything else.
Makes sense for all the wargear to work the same.
As for paying more then 15 points for a marine, yeah, already do. Bully for me though.
Alright, here is my grand idea, hold your breath
Game Masters
I know it sounds so stupid, but think of tournaments where specially trained GM's rule over every game. I think someone should try it, and for those of you ho would knock the foundation of my idea before it even is laid, go somewhere far, far ,far, far, far away, preferbly Commagoragh. I didn't spell that right did I?
What do you call a Squat that rides the subway?
a emonortem. this is spelled backwards, simply type it the other direction! Ha Ha
Wow. Marines are going to be tough. I forsee alot of Marine vs. Marine battles on the tables.
Well, if it makes anyone feel better, marine will probably be 17pts apiece and scouts 18 apiece.
In other words, stop being petty. I would probably never want to play anybody so whiny, and I've come across my fair share and liked none of them. Grow up and learn how to beat marines. Oh wait, that hasn't changed at all. How about that.
omg there are some real idiots on this page......
so its ok for every other race to have special rules and amazing tactics, but when a marine army gets them- nooo thats not allowed
orks get furious charge and fearless with mobs above 10 orks- eldar have always had insane special rules- chaos have more physcic than you can shake a stick at- ahem lash of submission- nids monstrous creatures which kick ass when used right
just because marines are tactical now you get hundreds of whining morons
"This spacemarine list is, in no way, going to be fun to play against"
just because your version of tactics probably involve puttig all your pts into 1 model and bragging how its invinsible- if you cant play the game then dont complain about it
"Land Speeder Storm
Scout transport land speeder nullifies enemy teleport homers and icons within 6". Enemy deepstrikers within 12" roll double scatter. Enemy units who are assualted from it are at -2 Leadership."
This is really the only thing that concerns me our of all the things mentioned. I'm just getting into demons, partly because I like the way they look, partly so I can use the models to get into fantasy as well. Since I haven't gotten to play them much yet, and they seem to be primarily an assault army, not being able to use icons and a double scatter sounds overly harsh. Maybe after a few games I'll be able to figure out how to take care of that better, but I'd really hate to have my troops that I need to land reasonably close to the enemy to start scattering a foot and a half off away, off the board, etc.
3++ on assault termies. Hmm still die when they roll a 1, which is how I've been doing it with my necrons against regular termies. With no ranged weapons on them, it's safer to bring out my pariahs, so I get to actually go first in CC, and allow no saves at all...
Is it just me or is the game getting less balanced (and to be honest, less enjoyable) the longer it sticks around? I can honestly say that i would rather play even a guard army where the whole army deployed in a 18x12" box with lascannon and command squads shielded by rows and rows of "cannon fodder" (before the time of conscripts) or where running an all assault tyranid army with no ranged weaponry was actually plausable than play either of this edition or the edition just gone by. The game was so much more enjoyable before every army had to fit into a strict regime or would be effectively handicapped by the "standardised list".
@matthew rider
How about actually reading and comprehending others posts, and then commenting rather than just being a blatant fanboi?
Ultramarines this, ultramarines that.
why not give some of the other cool chapters some heroes GW? Such as, well idk Iron hands? i mean yeah its cool and all for an iron hands squad, but i mean when i want 5 shoulder pads for my devastator squad, or to convert onto my techmarine, i have to buy a 10 man tactical squad, then i have 6 tactical marines without shoulder pads? Throw me a bone here.
Give iron hands shoulder pads.
And give us a hero, at least 1!
not just a techmarine, and if so make it legal for the techmarine to access the army and to command a command squad, not a little servitor squad commanding a whole army. Yet again, makes little sense.
*edit above remark*
not army, but armoury
Firewasp: You think that huh? Sadly though if the BT codex says a stormsheild does "this" then that is what it does. The wargear between codices are regrettably not interchangeable. Now in casual games with a friend that is up to him. Technically the BT (I believe) still have to use the older crapier assault cannon, because that is how the weapon is listed in the book.
Until errata comes out otherwise, no dice on interchangeable wargear. :/
I'm most upset about my Librarian getting nerfed with the 24" Psychic Hood range. Very, very lame.
And I must admit, though I am a Space Marines player, it seems like we got a little too buffed. I'm partially hoping the points costs are more expensive to compensate for all the freebies.
However, I know that when the new codex launches, my Army Builder v3 and I will be bracing for impact.
The new Codex is shaping up to be very fun. I think people are forgetting the bad days of early third edition, which made every army bland. Seriously, pull out a 3rd edition marine codex and what did you see? marines, marines with heavy weapons, marines with jetpacks, 3 hqs with similar wargear options, one single psychic power, etc.
They are adding lots of choices and options to every codex which is good. While everyone wants a DYI trait system for every army, so far such systems have not worked out well game wise. We've gotten Dark Reaper troops, apothecaries in every squad, Iron warrior 4x heavies with 3x oblits, and a host of worthless guard options.
So we see GW moving towards making each entry its own self contained unit, but with lots of options. I.E. Chaos Terminators which can be assault, firesupport or a mix. While there are plenty of units that the balance is still off, like generic deamons, pariahs, ogryn and wraithguard, it looks like every army is getting more choices and an attempt is being made to address traditional faults with those units.
Dark Angel players should be happy, they apothecaries w/ their termy squads. Chaos had the best deep strike ability so you all know GW would wreck that. Good news is Chaos still has bolters and 2 ccw's, no mention of this with the new SM codex. The biggest upset I see hear is Inquisition armies are now obsolete. GK's are now useless unless you are facing a deamon army. Inquisitors could choose to pass or fail a morale test, that is no longer unique. Orbital strike is no longer unique. I own Chaos and 5000pts. Witch Hunters, I see witch hunters fading badly, unless we see an Inquisition codex with a total redoo. I also feel bad for the templar players, they seem like wasted money to me. Good news is the Emperor is dying, and Chaos will prevail. Long live Abaddon.
Sorry about the mispells and a few comments that are missing a word.
Damn Heffeweizen.
So, GW have managed to nerf things that didnt need nerfing (psychic hoods, (and from the looks of it) techmarines) and buffed those that didnt really need buffing (apothecaries, tactical squads). All the rest is almost guarenteed to be useless or not woht the points (close to 200 point dreads, vets that die to easily). Oh and i would put money on dreads still sucking for their points cost and still getting outclassed by crappy ork ones. fantastic!
RE: Stormshields. Has anyone really thought these criticisms through?
Within the context of 5th edition rules, a 3+ Invulnerable save isn't what I'd call overpowered at all. Virtually every troop in the game is going to have a 4+ cover save at times during any given game WITHOUT Stormshields.
So "in context" to the new rules, improving stormshields from a 4+ to a 3+ is about right, as is the ability to use the save in close combat AND against shooting. After all, if you're going to use them, they should give you something better than you'd have without them having them at all.
As far as losing traits goes, that's a bummer. Sure you'd get people who would somewhat abuse them in tournaments, but for the most part I've played with people who used them to enhance a particular style of play, not to gain an overwhelming advantage. It's unfortunate that in order for someone's particular chapter (such as Crimson Fists) to have anything special, you'd have to use a special character. But is that somehow overbalanced? Not from the sounds of it. They seem to lose Combat Tactics and gain other things instead. Give and take.
RE: the "free" flamer and heavy weapon for 10-man tactical squads... Although I can't confirm it, I'm guessing what they'll do is charge a bit extra for the extra 5 marines just like they did with the BA to account for the Death Company they recieve.
I'd also assume that when they release the new marine codex they'll also do another FAQ as they did after the previous re-released marine codex.
i for one am enjoying space marines getting something new. every other new codex is getting more goodies, for once it's going to be space marines that get something new.
does Lysander have eternal warrior? Any other Lysander tid bits are appriciated as well. are admantium mantles still around? can masters have relic weapons?
Bothan Spy Here:
Techmarines still repair, sorry i didnt mention it.
i'm not worried about the new rules for space marines , i'm quite confident they'll balance it nicely
what i'm not happy about is the big bunch of new units they will get when most codex are lucky if they get 2 new units when they update
Okay, so the tactical squads specials is confirmed, however has anyone been able to verify whether this rule is true to assault squads as well? I have a 9-man assault squad with two plasma pistols, it'd suck to have to arrange a 10th man in there.
@i'm quite confident they'll balance it nicely
Perhaps a rough poll to see just how many people believe that they'll balance this nicely would be interesting.
Wow, all the anger... Folks, calm down a bit, and do recall that the Marines normally start like this, eventually the army gets cut down to size by everyone else. As a Marine player, I STILL say that, even with the new features, Marines aren't the army to beat -- that title still belongs to the Eldar (or depending on who you're talking to, the Orks).
Remember folks, breath.... breath....
And play nice.
I don't see why everyone thinks this codex is going to be so unbalanced. 3+ svs for a storm shield is not that much of a buff and I imagine that they suffer from a points hike.
Someone complained about stubborn being granted by a special character. How is that broken? Who cares if my whole army is stubborn? I would almost always prefer to be able to auto fail tests that way when I get assaulted by orks I can runa dn then rapid fire(At least I think I can) and that sounds much better than stubborn to me.
Free heavy bolters!?! OMG a free 5 pts weapon that can't move asn shoot if you take 10 guys. This means my list will get 10 free points from the HBs and 10 from a missile. Too bad most SM players I know use las plas a lot more than HB or Missile.
Also most SM armies got a little bit nerfed by the generous covers saves in 5th ed. SInce marine armies are often out numbered and teh enemy is almost always getting a cover save that is almost as good as our armor save it makes our bolters a little less useful and our power armor less threatening.
To teh person who mentioned getting owned by a little kid playing SMs. I imagine this will be a lt less likely in the new 'dex since there are som many shiny expensive looking options that seem to always be a trap for kids and noobs. I think the new dex will really hurt noobs the most.
While some of this stuf is really powerful the loss of traits which could be abused, th eloss of Rites of Battle(no ld 10 anymore) and the probable pts hike will not make this dex overpowered. Sure some armes(GK in particular) are weak and that is not good but when the new SM book is compared to teh chaos daemon, eldar, adn ork dex I imagine it will be nicely balanced.
Take a minute and calm down. there is no reason to get all freaky, I've been playing 40K since Rouge Trader, and the rules have all had their glitches. though these are the best I've seen since the 2nd edition (for those that have been here since the 2nd edition)! As for the new Space Marine Codex, wait for the book to come out before you choose to freak out about it!!!! Simply relax, take them in stride, the rules tend to balance themselves out. The point is to play and have fun, change is inevitable. F-bomb the power gamers!!!!!!!!!
"though these are the best I've seen since the 2nd edition"
Welcome to 5th Edition, you can now kill ten men by shooting one man ten times.
Bothan Spy:
Where did you read the Space Marine Codex at the Chicago Games Day?
My friends who did go down, did not see the codex anywhere. And they visited all the areas.
"Welcome to 5th Edition, you can now kill ten men by shooting one man ten times."
Only if you put yourself in that situation.
Lysander does have Eternal Warrior. And an S10 thunderhammer which adds 1 to armor penetration rolls.
@ weeler
"Good news is the Emperor is dying, and Chaos will prevail. Long live Abaddon."
As long as that as*hole Abaddon lives chaos will not prevail. Talk about inefficient, it's been 10000 years and CADIA IS STILL THERE! ROFLMAO, Abaddon must be THE most inefficient commander of all times. He launched only about 1 Crusade a every 1000 years. He managed to lose 4 of the 5 Blackstone fortresses, LOL. The TAU have had more of a success in the past 200 years than he in 10000 !
But than again, Abaddon was a idiot before turning to chaos...
:)))))
On topic.
I like most of the changes. Will wait till the dex comes out before passing absolute judgements.
I have my sources.. it was not on display.
WOW shrike gives fleet to whole army!!!. Fleeting terminators, fleeting bikes, fleeting veterans who already have jetpacks on...OUCH!!!
Good thing my army is blue but not chapter specific :p.
@anonymous (doesnt want to giva nam ovi)
i fail to see how im being a fanboy- im just saying how each race should get its own special rules you idiot
and i agree with.... another anonymous lol..... iron hands realy need more attention, im an iron hands player myself
I see nothing here a nice big mob of Orks can't handle.
I just started collecting Blood Angels this spring and I have to say I'm really happy with this chapter. Of course, the new Space Marines Codex raises a little jealousy, but that's just normal. =)
One can argue which army was the first to be designed for 5th Edition, be it the 2007 Blood Angels, the latest Orkz, Demons, or the upcoming Space Marines. Either way, I know my Blood Angels' strengths and weaknesses and there is no point for me in playing some red Ultramarines successor Chapter.
Furthermore, Blood Angels players are well served with the PDF Codex. When the 5th Edition FAQ came out, we didn't get just a new sheet attached, but the whole Codex reworked. If Games Workshop is going to update our Codex in a similar manner after the new Space Marines Codex, there's really nothing to complain about.
At the moment I can't see any Blood Angels player give up his army, although we look at the new toys, of course. ;-) And if everything fails, I have still 5'000 points Orkzes sitting in my basement. ;-)
@ matthew
I agree with what you say. Also with the post before that.
I am partialy surprised to see people saying "OMFG!!11 Space marines are soo leet now they gonna kick ass i am quitting this stupid hobby!"
1. Stop whining and quit. It would be better for us and yourselves.Period.
2. Can't believe SM players have to put up with all this hate especially since Eldars are OMFG exploit kings for such a long time, and Tyranid and Orks list are very very competitive. Admitedly for Orks it's just with the new codex but still theyre kick ass now.
And the CSM have had so many goodies for such a long time, just let the spotlight on the Loyalists for a while OK?
Anyway i'm also building a CSM army because i like the minis and fluff and whatnot and i do not miss the old codex, not even a bit.Well except the fact that i do not like the new dex' layout compared to the old one.
Demons to demons and CSM to CSM, that's the way i like it.
P.S.: I say partialy surprised because i know that a significant proportion people are just a bunch of whiners who take every oportunity to throw sh*t at anything. Call me a fanboi, i don't care :))))
I would have liked to see the Scythes of The Emperor for the marine dex cover art, you know, glorius last stand against a mob of gribbly 'nids.
Oh aditza, you fanboi.
Where is the NEW plastic
Grenade Launcher combi-Bolter?
Nice SM anyway... like the effort into the design
Hope IG will be as nice... with the same effort or more and more special rules for units...
WS/BS 5 Venerable Dreadnoughts. About time! There was nothing decent about them for their extra points cost because half the time you were scared to make the opponent re-roll immobilised or weapon destroyed results incase the re-roll was worst. Not only that but Forgeworld recognised that Venerables needed to be more special a long long time ago.
WS/BS 3 Scouts. Ouch. I'm a scout army player with nothing but 10 man scout squads for the core of my army (2 sniper, 2 bolter, 2 combat). While I agree with the reasons behind the reduction (ie, they're in training) I'm annoyed at the same time. Ce la vie I suppose, though I do hope they drop their points cost to compensate...oh yeah, and give the snipers a targeter for +1 BS or something otherwise they're just going to be pointless on a scout.
To those who keep saying "cheese" to this new SM codex...you obviously can't use the other codex's that well. The Eldar still out cheese SM's with their Pathfinders who score AP 1 with a hit roll of 5+ and AP 2 on a wound roll of 6 as well as being troops with +2 to their cover save...which in 5th ED pretty much guarantee's a 2+ cover save. That's just one example off hand of something cheesy in other armies and I'm sure if you think on it you can come up with many others (Tyranids have a number for example).
Free heavies/specials for 10 man squads....now there's a reason to take 10 marines. At 15 points a man, most people didn't bother with 10 man marine squads because they offered nothing if you took a heavy weapon (since you could take devestators) and with 1 special weapon it was pointless taking 10 men when you could spend the points on something else more usefull.
As for the "They Shall Know No Fear".....I do believe the new rule they're getting is to replace this though I have a suspicion that the rule will be extended to incorporate some of that rule. After-all, part of the "TSKNF" rule was that if they go caught by sweeping advance they didn't get wiped out, just took armour saves as if fearless....well, now you can choose to pass or fail moral checks, so when exactly would you run from a combat when you can hold the unit up for your combat squad to come in and wipe it out (considering the rules state that an enemy can't attack a squad that's just charged it if they're already engaged in combat)
No...I like the new codex for both it's pro's and con's and as an Eldar, Chaos, Marine and Dark Angels player...I think it's still sounding very fair accross the board.
People will just need to learn how to adapt to a different fighting style...which shouldn't be difficult since 5th Ed is forcing that adaptation already.
At last showed up the real reason for "THE TIME OF ENDING"..
All the tournaments will be fought with loyalist Space Marines Chapters, all against each other, till only remains ONE !!!!
LOL
@The only people that should ever complain about codexes are the Dark Eldar players.
Necron players also have right to complain. They have been waiting a long time as well. If you look at the spread of all the Codices in the new rulebook, every army has a new-style cover except Dark Eldar, Necron and IG.
@heartbitt
There can be only one!
And those are......THE ANGRY MARINES!
ALWAYS ANGRY, ALL THE TIME!
I'll take stubborn over combat tatics any day this is going to be freaking SWEET. Does the is mean all phsyic hoods are going to be that range also? Jammer pods on a LS that is awesome
"Also, would anyone not take Cantor, or at least a "counts-as" version? Stubborn for free on all units, plus yet more scoring units? Yes please. I know how annoying Sisters can be with the Books of St. Lucius, with Marines it'd just be worse."
Unless you take Calgar, who allows all squads to choose whether they pass or fail without rolling the dice.
us Dark Angel players will still gladly take bikes and Termies as troops.
I wonder if any of the heroes give troops true-grit and/or counter-attack (the USR that gives the +1 attack when charged). I will really miss that trait, especially now in 5th.
Any word on the Legion of the Damned making a comeback in the new codex?
well reading the uk version of wd on page 11 it has a "coming in oct" section mentioning new marine codex, confirms the plastic drop pod we're all heard about for ages, plastic crusader, special chars old and new, return of support weapons and legion of the damned.
So by the sounds of it the LoD should be in the new codex (suppose it explains why its ment to be over 140 pages)
I'm more than a little sick of hearing how broke tournaments and how they ought to be "fixed" from Marines crying a river over Eldar tactics. How quickly they forget that the new Eldar codex hasn't even been out for 2 years, and before that Eldar players endured 8 long years of Gav's butchering of the army from back in 1998.
What pisses off non-Marine players is listening to Marine players whine about some list tweak/tactic that halts their Rhino rush, or gets around their reliance on über vehicles and insane invul saves, then petition for RTTs to change to give them a chance. Then once their new codex comes out they get all indignant when anyone suggests the army is overblown in the extreme.
It is overblown. Trust me, the next 'ard Boyz tourney in September will be teeming with Marine armies that'll roll right over any previous codex.
im begining to get annoyed here
there will NOT be marines vs marines vs marines in toureys!
this is just balancing out the fact that every other race has special rules and the marines were falling behind
holy hell the way you oeople are going on about it youd think we got 1+ invunerable saves on everything
calm down for christs sake lol
Hmmm....
Ulthanesh seems to be forgetting the Eldar vs. Eldar, Eldar vs. Chaos that usualy happens in tourney finals, and not just in Poland.
Also he seems to forget the number of exploits that the Eldar list allows versus Marine exploits.
There won't be any Marine vs. Marine thingy.
Even if that happens, God forbid it should break the supremacy of the Elves in space. I mean it's theyre birthright being one of the most technologically advanced race,bla,bla,bla...
P.S.: As a side note, i am amazed at the number of people with arrogant attitude amongst Eldar players. Do they get too much in character or what?
I am not implying that most Eldar players are arrogant just that it appears that there is a higher number among them than in the rest of us.
What I want to know is with everyone complaining about how overpowered SM's are now does anyone remember 2nd? In 2nd a standard Marine used to cost 30 points, Had a 24" rapid fire weapon(as in rapid fire 24"), and fell back towards the commander. SM's should be Bad Mofos. They are the cream of the crop for the imperium. As for them getting new things, Well STC's are being found, different chapters are modifying equipent to meet certain campaign goals, and more.
Have a problem with loosing traits... Hmm I remember back in 2nd there were no traits, you simply had the ability to configure your army as you wanted and with a cool paint job you had the "Rabid Weasles" chapter.
Everything I've seen changing has eventually lead back towards that. Traits were a crutch for people who didn't want to learn to play a different style, or a different army. (previous post about great traits and No allies detriment). The game has died out in my area thanks to people like that. The best part is when someone like me takes a balanced army and proceeds to mop the floor with them because they do not know how to react to even the simplest tactics. Had one guy grab a handful of dice, toss them across the room and storm out of the store. He happened to get banned from the store because of the dice.
EVERY army can be "over powered" when reading it. Just remember, there is going to be just as many people playing or fluff and not simply win.
I never realized how 40K was just like real life. One entity becomes more powerful than the rest and it leads to constant bickering. Space Marine vs. Space Marine vs. Space Marine. Get ready Daemon players this is going to tear a huge hole in the Warp
P.S. I think Ultramarines should get faith points, and have acts of faith. That way all Imperial armies would fit nicely in one codex.
Long Live Abaddon.
Long Live Abaddon, eh? the man's an idiot and a failure, 13 tries and he can't get past 1 stinking planet? and he denouces Horus as a weak fool?! sit down scub and read up on your clone-daddies tactics and campaigns, you just might learn something.
Interesting reading.
Some good comments about DA still being able to take Deathwing & Ravenwing as troops (with HQ).
I am pretty sure that updates to wargear apply to all codices though otherwise my DA scouts will hit on a 2+ with their sniper rifles rather than with their BS.
As a result I expect to see 3+ saves vs shooting/assault with Storm Shields.
Lose some/win some it all evens out.
As for psychic hoods have we a clarification if it requires the enemy caster to be within 24" or the effect?
"Free" special weapon/hvy bolter for 10 man squads? All I can see in that is a 1pt or even maximum 2 pt increase in the cost of the basic trooper.
Personally I expect to see a Space Marines Codex very similar to the DA one with 5/10 man squad options only and bolt pistols/grenades as std fit out and compulsory VetSgts. Expect that is where the 18pts per man rumour has originated as the squad cost will be 180pts for 10 men.
I see little or no change except for the new abilities from characters which is what I'm looking forward to.
I'm just not big on playing IC's as "count as". Don't half ass the fluff. If you're going to play an IC you better play that specific chapter or you lose my respect as a player.
Otherwise I like all the changes to SM and my CSM will continue to butcher you dogs.
BoLS is a great forum just too many whiners....
@weeler
Why not give Ultras the emperor's blessing, means I can make my Space Mariness or Battle even more authentic.
I asked the manager of my local if I could try Battle Sister-Brothers when the codex comes out. He thought it was a good idea. Helps level the playing field whilst GW we wait for GW to Un-Hate the Sisters. (and issue an apology for ignoring them in the rulebook)
RE: the genius who said they'd "pick Stubborn over combat tactics anyday." Huh!?
With Stubborn you have to roll the dice to make your test. With combat tactics you can just choose to make it. The only advantage stubborn would ever give you is to not take additional wounds from the 'no retreat' rule.
RE: the other one that mentioned how great marines were in 2nd edition... He got two things very wrong. You didn't fall back toward your commander. Everyone, from every army ran toward the nearest cover. Marines could however fail two break tests before running.
Also, marines didn't have rapid fire weapons because there weren't any as such. They did however have a rapid fire rule for marines themselves that enabled them to shoot twice with bolters, bolt pistols and storm bolters if the squad didn't move.
I can just see it now... the abusing of rules until redo's come out when I hit 40... im 18 btw.
I think that this coin is two sided because as UTTERLY STUPID these rules look to be, imagine later on how UTTERLY STUPID the necrons, eldar, orks, IG, and Chaos will be.
Im being TOOOOOO optomistic here i know, but think about this in wishful logic, if the space marines are getting this much shwag for their army, which of course is still possibly nerfed here in the long run, imagine what the eldar, IG, or even Chaos with the chance of BRINGING BACK those old legion rules but in a vanilla'ed down sense, like the chapters of legend but with added Ether :D. dont be completely down people, cause for every powerful army, there is an equal/opposite army ready to shove a daemon-claw up your arse.
@anon 4:49
"BoLS is a great forum just too many whiners...."
Show me one comparable Forum with less whiners!^^
Bolter & Chainsword seems to indicate that the new SM codex will be in line with DA Codex as "it was written for 5th ed."
Seems to confirm what I thought and doesn't indicate that the balance will have changed much with the exception of IC's perhaps.
The only "cheese" I'm lamenting the loss of is the 5-termie/2 AC squad, which was really the best "force multiplier" SMs have (had). I'm not seeing an equivalent force multiplier in the rumors, either -- except maybe the special ammo types for the sternguard. But even that is no substitute for making your opponent roll more saves from a high volume of fire, and quite honestly, if there is one thing you need in today's infantry-heavy 5E battlefield, it's a way to produce maximum fire volume to exterminate high numbers of enemy models quickly.
-crusher joe
Agreed, I think it would have been far better to just nerf rending and keep two special weapons for terminaotr squads, after all they are veterans.
the new sternguard do have an option for equipping member with storm bolters. And those stormbolter do in fact use the special ammo...
For me, I'm thinking sternguard in a landraider, all toting stormbolters.....
You peeps do realize you are whining pissing and moaning about a game right? A friggin' game.A...g-a-m-e.Just thought you'd like to know, you know...a game...
thats right... it's a game...
but it's a game that we all like and love playing...
complaining and stuff is always ok... as long as u don't get obsessed with it... which is what some of the posts suggest...
ppl don't want to even want to see how the marines will end up playing like when their codex comes out...
maybe there is a big flaw in the army which other armies could exploit... :] you never know...
PS: I play Marines with Traits and an Eldar Jetbike Army.
I didn't realize Abaddon was so offensive. This is just too fun.
These forums kick ass. I can't wait to face this new SM codex. All this new stuff sounds overpowered but its going to cost a fortune. We are not going to see mobs of Termys or veterans, remember they can't hold objectives only contest. Terminators always died when they rolled 1's, and guess what they will still die when they roll 1's.
P.S. They should make a librarian IC in Term armor that allows regular terminators to all take strength 6 nemesis force weapons. That would be awesome:) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :)
Long Live Abaddon
TBO I can't wait for the new dex. I have never played SM but I do play nids and eldar so I no plenty bout overpowered armis. Both mine wipe the floor clean!!! So ppl should quit the whining! This game is bout fun and if u not having fun den u should go play bingo wi all rthe buddies (*translation* elderly women) and moan about the weather!!
@ weeler
haha... that would just make grey knight termies pretty much useless... regular marines kickin grey knight ass... so much fun lol..
Wow i got into the game at just the right time! 3+ invul. saves for SS/TH termies! watch how many LC's get tossed in the bin! I read this thread a while back, caught the bit about 10 man tac squads but somehow MISSED the free weapon upgrades =P! The commanders orbital bombardment sounds like a great first round finger to the enemies baddie if that's allowed. Now for the others. Blood Angel and Dark Angel players, simmer down. Talking to older heads that have played the game since the begining inform me that this is normal for each new edition. People tell stories about how BA's and DA's were THE King Kong armies when you guys were fresh off the rack. Why shouldnt the valiant Sons of Guilliman get some of the cheese lovin'? Hell the Space Wolves have been waiting longer than any of us for a new codex right? As for the the xenos races....purge with fire i mean im sure all of this will balance out. Im sure in GW's desire to ramp up their flagship army as i saw someone in this thread write, they dont want to alienate you guys, as you pour tankloads of money into their coffers as well. All will be fine....till then, im loving my Ultramarines. *Ave Imperator*
Really will all of you just shut up for a min and realise how nerfed this codex really is?
squads of 5 SM can't take heavy weapons, out the window goes my squad of 5 with heavy bolter that holds objectives nicely, +standard marine is going to go through the roof points-wise.
And as for the 24" range on the Librarian thats a good change, means you can't just leave him in the corner and whoop ass with your awsome powers you actually have to use tactics!
Besides even if I'm wrong and the SM end up powerfull and godlike my CSM will still whoop SM ass if I apply tactics!
PS: Abaddon may not entirly succed with the black crusades but he can still put order into the legions of Chaos, hey if you can order chaos your pretty awsome in my book
@ weeler;
too funny how people keep bagging on your boy Ezekyle. I personally like the dude, always something to be said for blind obedient rage, but when whats his name summarized the Despoilers career.....ouch!
@anon 4.40am
You can still field a 5 man unit with a Hvy Bolter. Buy a 10 man squad with free Hvy Bolter & flamer/melta and split them into combat squads.
The points are not going to go up on Space Marines from what I have read.
They will just be auto outfitted with frag/krak and bolt pistols in addition to their Boltgun.
Now you can shoot AND charge.
@ Captain Bog-bot...I like the DA codex and am not bothered by the changes. After all I may not get the Orbital barrage etc but I can take Termis&Bikers to hold objectives when they are used in my troop slots. I'm pretty sure you were aiming at others here, but wanted to let you know there is a happy camper here.
BTW. From what I see Autocannons are going up in price in line with the DA codex.
Also, as SM codex seems to indicate 10 man Termi squads, I'm thinking tey will be able to take two hvy wpns and combat squad into two units.
I also wonder if like the Deathwing you will be able to mix assault and std variants in one unit pick? Any thoughts..??
Good news for Adeptus Mechanicus - themed army. I want that beamer.
Sadly reading the post on here I see a lot of people angry by the new list. I can say Im not one of them. I like the push towarge 10man squads. It makes the marines take lots of troops and thus hopefully more fun games. Also even if you only take a 5 man squad then you still have a very effective squad. (I have found bolters can solve most problems with a toughness value except wraithlords lol). As far as them being unkilliable I have to disagree. I have found my imperial guard have had no trouble mowing them down (plasma will do that lol). Also any army that can take alot of ap3 weapons will do very well. The marines are good but in the end 40k is a game of math. The math is "make your enemy roll more saves and you win". The horde armies I feel will still have the advantige and it will still take a skilled marine comander to stop a guard gun line or a tyranid assult. Please dont think I am saying marines can't win I just feel that marines will have to come up with creative stratiges to beat an equaly skilled horde player.
BTW I am looking forward to the new codex and hope that it leads to great games!
"Second is the awesome combos Combat Tactics and ATSKNF will allow. Things such as taking shooting casualties, then falling back out of assault range to blast away at assaulters comes to mind."
If I understand the rules correctly then that won't work if they assault you in the same turn. You don't test for fall-back until after the assault phase, so a unit should still be able to shoot the marines and then charge them before they get the chance to back away. However it does mean that if the marines lose a round of combat they can attempt to disengage by choosing to fail their morale check. If the fall-back is successful it leaves the enemy unit unengaged and exposed to return fire in the following round. This is, I think, the nastiest aspect of this combo, as it gives the whole marine force a kind of limited Hit and Run ability. Once you have shot them to pieces in the following shooting round, you can counter-assault with another unit in your own turn.
It also helps you keep your distance if an enemy is trying to close from a distance, as you can fall back after having remained stationary in your shooting phase, moving up to 12" at the end of the phase. However I question how useful this will be. Firstly you have to have already taken 25% casualties to get the chance to fall back, whicb you probably want to avoid, plus you can only fire 12" with your bolters and can't fire heavy weapons next turn. I can see it being used once, to give you an extra round of fire, but not turn after turn. It is probably most useful to help you to retreat through difficult terrain, as the 2D6 is not affected by difficult terrain, allowing you to move further back than you otherwise might have done.
Anyone have the lowdown on whats going to happen to space wolves?
I dont care how good the marines are my 6k nid amry will kill each and everyone one of them epsept pesky calgar he is too good
am i ever glad that i recently switched from 40k to fantasy.
just sounds like even more cheese than when i left. the games were getting boring as it was, happy i don't have to deal with this list. (black templars/ emperor's children/chaos renegades/ witchhunters/ eldar/ tyranids/ traitor guard)
I love how the blog admin is systematically removing any comment remotely critical of Marines Workshop.
Looks like the "fever options" and "less power-gaming" road where very short.
DA and BA really got the short end of the straw.
I for sure will play my green guys as blue!
looking forward to this note to Dark angels, blood angels, Space wolfs, black templars and red scorpion players:
your traits are still kept as your seprate codexs unless FAQ'd :P
cant wait for the new MINIS ethier their selling the megaforce boxsets during Gamesday (UK Birmingham) ive also heard a rumor of a plastic THUNDER HAWK!!! estimated around £100
First of all to all you gamers who are bitching about your marine armies (i.e BA, DA, BT, SW) stop right now
answer me this, what was the one good thing about taking them armys instead of a normal SM army???
ill tell ya, and it is because they are different to the normall marine armys... so what if new librarians are stronger,new termies get ner storm sheild rules and new landspeeders arnt gonna be with the deathwing.. you still get an army that is different from all the normal SM armys so stop complaining will ya..
And who knows, maybe they will bring out an FAQs but who knows right.. everything here is a rumour so we all just gotta sit bk n w8...
another thing, the SM havnt been over powered as all points cost are probarely going up effectively, and well al lthis for the free weapons, i dought its gonna be free by the time you work out the new points cost...
Also making the marines a new strong race again is one of the best parts about new rule updates... finding new ways to kick there ass untill your new codex comes out.. am i right 8-D
The chapter traits i am suprised to see have gone, but then yet again what would be the point of the different commanders around atm.... now they decide what your army can have, and hey to see a SM army with the fleet rule wud be nasty to see lol.. but fun
The only change im hoping for is that they get rid of the armoury, and just have wargear options (not saying models can have additional wargear from the armoury, but model can upgrade to so n so)
This is because all other codexs atm have had there armourys scraped.. of course DE havent as they havnt been updated, but Eldar, CSM,Orks, Tau (dnt think they had 1 tho lol).. get my drift
The most irataing reason for this is the fact that all IC can have wargear rom armoury and take the god damn admantile mantine so they dnt die instantly... what other army has that kind of stuff huh ?.. none i can think ov unless they are special or ones you cant give additonal wargear too... thats my opinion
i spose there are going to be loads of people who disagree with me on that, but thats my opinion.. prefere games where its all wargear and not armoury based.
lease comment on this if wanted.. would appreciate it
but hey, new marines look cool.. now time to re-think new eldar tactics hehe 8-D
I care not if they have all these new toys, I can still sit at my end of the board and brightlance them until they are molecules. They will still be incredibly vulnerable to Prism Cannons and Star cannons, and they can't pass all of their 3+ saves against the strength 6 might of Shuriken cannons and scatter lasers. I am not particulaly worried about this new Codex, Maybe even get me a small army. But playin against them will not worry me.
And also to all those people bitching about their speacialist marine chapters getting nerfed, think about this:
Dark Angels Players: Who else can field an all terminator army?
Blood Angels: Who else can Get Death Company and Death company dreads? or Furioso Dreads for that matter?
Black Templars: Righteous Fury I think it's called(I can't remember)And sword Brethren. Some of the nastiest things I can think of that you have access to.
Space Wolves: Nobody else can get Venerable Dreads as an HQ choice, and getting a new 'dex soon anyway.
STOP WHINING!!!
Sorry if already mentioned, but Blood Angels still have Assault Marines as troop choices.
Being able to make a 12" jump then run onto an objective on the last turn is always a massive bonus.
Don't play DA, but I hear something about Termy/Bikes as troops? Very shiny.
And I would not be surprised to see a heavy FAQ relaease to clarify how to integrate current chapter 'dexes with the new main SM dex. Patience Brothers.....
i hope that Dark eldar and necrons get redone soon and demon hunters... and oh how many codexs havent been redone while the the space marines were redone oh.... 2 or so years ago? but congrats on your next new codex you flower children of GW.... dont worry any problems with it will be redone in your next codex due out in December of 2010 and for you necron and Demon hunter/witch hunters out there im sure youll get a nice one page faq soon...
I know this is against the grain, but I really like these new rules.
All of these upgrades will ocst a lot of points, and if you have killer terminators they still cant claim objectives.
I really like the special characters because they are basically traits in a dude, yeah you have to take a "named HQ" but you can always make up your own names and history of your chapter. There are 13 special characters and all prob have cool rules, the chapetr masters dont seem to have many "i can kill everything" rules so they are basically traits in a dude.
You say this new list is broken, well I say using traits to get infiltrating devastators is broken. I say some of the traits are the most broken thing GW has ever done.
"Oh look I can infinltrate my whole army, whats the downside? I cant use allies, oh no!"
IC Shrike can get some assault marines up to 24" in one turn and then go straight into assault!!!!!!
STAY AWAY FROM MY GUARDSMEN!!!!!
wow there's a lot of whining. It's only a game, remember?
Every new codex is better than any that already exist, look at the ork and eldar players living it large.
I know that the marines get a lot of love but GW is a business and marines account for 50% of the 40k armies. Virtually every one starts with one at least.
It'll be fine. Eventually ;o)
Well, I can see exactly why people would be upset, but with awesome rules, comes an awesome huge price hike. I think the sternguard vets are probably 25/model with the relic blades.
If you get the heavy weapon and special weapon for free, that means that the points cost will be inline with the DA and BA codex of a nice 18/model which is fair.
To be honest, the ONLY people who can really bitch about GW being unfair, are people who play pure GK, and pure sisters of battle.
We need the updates and new codexes more than anything, and even still I beat marine veterans with my pure GK, and the victory is all that much sweeter. Space Marines are a very easy to use army, which takes very little effort to pull off a victory.
I also play Space Marines.
every new codex increases in power
look back to the new chaos codex
INCREASE
im not complaining about the loss of cheesy options i played against them enough to know they were over the top
but one of the funest things about 40k for me is the ability to make an army your own and we got that ripped to sheds now you get all this and you call us whiners when we say this
were stuck with no custimization the GW gives you all THIS sorry if were bitter
DEATH TO THE SMURFS!!!!!!!
For those who say they should look after space marines because they make up a large base of there profits, thats because they baby them so much THATS why they get new codex's when others need them more, if they babied eldar this much more people would play them, same for every army, they need to look after the others, Smurfs have ALWAYS had the most broken codex, people bitch about necrons, Smurfs were FAR more broken, all they've done is break them more, GW needs to help the other armies that havent gotten anything new in 8-9 years before they redo a brand new codex, so sorry if most of us are pissed but its frustrating, but then again smurf players wouldn't know what its like to have your army ignored for more than 4 years so they don't understand how other players feel about GW
I don't really care for the no Special or Heavy Weapons in tac squads of less than 10 marines.
It will relegate Razorbacks to Devastator squads.
I don't like the special characters, but I've never been a fan of them. I wish they'd left the Raven Guard alone and not made any characters. I liked playing them when no one else was.
Post a Comment