Everyone is chattering about this one guys. There is a price increase slated for September 29th. Here is a copy of the GW letter announcing the increase:
Dear Valued Customers,
There is an old curse you might know: “May you live in interesting times “
I would be very surprised if anyone could look around our tiny world today and not ponder the truism of such a simple remark. There is very little doubt that these current days would certainly qualify as interesting.
Among many other concerns the world has been struggling with the rising cost of energy, transport, and materials. These rising costs have ultimately affected not only the price of gasoline that we put into our tanks, but the price we pay for milk, eggs and cereal. It has also, not surprisingly perhaps, greatly affected the costs for producing miniatures.
Today we are contacting all of our Trade customers globally to announce that due to these rising costs, we too will be raising some of our prices.
We do not do this lightly. We fully understand that the timing of the price rise directly conflicts with our annual July price review and for that we deeply apologize. I hope that you understand that this price rise is not something Games Workshop Global desires to do, it is something we have to do.
That being said, we wish to approach this change with the same dedication to customer service that we do for every endeavor. So for clarity and fairness I offer the following points:
We are contacting our Trade customers this week to prepare them for any questions they may have.
On Monday August 25th a message informing end hobbyists will be placed on all of our websites.
Prices will change September 29th.
A message will appear in our October White Dwarf.
The price increase will affect part of our paint and hobby ranges, as well as a large portion of our metal models and printed materials.
Even with the pressure of rising costs we are adamant that we will not at this time raise prices on any plastic model kits. Providing high quality, great value kits is fundamental to our corporate strategy and will continue to produce and distribute them at the current prices for as long as we are able.
Sincerely,
Games Workshop
Our latest info puts these increases generally in the 15-25% range (on a per item basis) and they will be focussed on paints, paper books, and metal minis. All plastic ranges are being held to their current prices.
It would seem that the global economy and commodities runup of the last 12 months has finally caught up with GW as well. While the cost of goods for the minis themselves is a tiny fraction of the overall cost, transport and distribution costs have been through the roof globally. It appears that GW as part of their slow chageover to being a plastic-focussed company has decided to keep those ranges steady and pass the increased costs on through on the hobby, codex, and more specialized metal range side of things.
~Have at it guys, but I realize this is an extremely sensitive topic. Please be reasoned and try to keep it under control. Lets all try to keep this thread from degenerating into a cesspool of hatred. In the short-term the only advice I can give is to try to pick up that special metal mini you've had your eyes on for a while before the end of September.
166 comments:
Expected? Yes
Shame? Yes
Confucian curse exceptionally trite? Yes
Glad that GW have frozen prices on plactics, decent and understandable and yes this is a kick in the groin for older metal dependant ranges but nobody ever said fantasy gaming was fair
It's not a Confucian curse. The first recorded usage is dated 1936 by a friend of British diplomat Hughe Knatchbull-Hugessen, in Knatchbull-Hugessen's memoir. At Georgetown in Mandarin classes, they dispelled this so-called curse at the 101 level.
As for price rises, so be it. Life is hard everywhere.
Don't know the exact circumstances that have prompted this, whether its truely unavoidable or just an effort to keep profits up, but either way I don't think I'll be able to pay 25% extra for my mini's. No vitriol intended, that's just too big a jump. We're all feeling the crunch, after all. I'm a father and this hobby is already a luxury. Ah well.
Just hope this doesnt make the hobby unaffordable for too many other people, or its goodbye GW.
Maybe a changeover to all plastic will help reduce prices. It's long overdue anyway. Hope it happens soon as possible. Plastics are easier to work with, much cheaper, and are almost as detailed as metals these days
If anything this is a big advantage to GW moving to an all or primarily plastic minis line. This kind of price increase just won't be sustainable given current market conditions, and the significant increase in demand for plastics will encourage quicker movement in that direction.
wow, as if their prices weren't high enough
25% is a bit higher than I was expecting. Guess it just means I'll have to buy less of the new stuff, but I will still get some, especially plastics. I prefer plastic anyway. Too bad the new SM vets are metal :(
AS a figure manufacturer and importer I have seen my metal cost nearly double in the last year, so this is understandable. As well as the metal cost which is only part of the equation there is also the fuel cost to heat the crucibles, insurance rates have also risen along with payroll and taxes. So there are a lot of other factors that have gone into this increase, not to mention the freight fuel surcharges as well.
While I am a long time GW customer ( I still have my rouge trader from 88) I will just rescale my purchases as well.
Baxter Key
Wargames & Figures armour artillery usa
Bah. GW prices are already MUCH higher than most of the other companies producing miniatures. And this is even worse if we consider the quality of GW models is nothing that special.
I don't really think GW will go that far with this kind of policy.
Maybe they could consider different ways to balance their budget.... what happened to their airbrushes is just an example (the last of a long series) of mistakes that result in prohibitive prices. I was planning to start a new army, but I'd better consider spending my money elseway...
Understandable. I can see not only things costing more on the resource side, but an increased cost of living rquiring a higher payroll.
I wonder if this is going to effect White Dwarf. That magazine is already way more expensive than it needs to me.
As far as people talking about the up to 25%, my guess is that will be only on smaller items, saving the 15% for larger items. And 25% isn't much at this range. When you consider that most of these products that will be changing are 6-20 USD then that isn't too much. Something $20 is $25. That $10 blister is $12. Not horrible.
If the cost of metal has actually doubled these prices are understandable, but unfortunately not viable. When the cost of living is so high that we're all counting our pennies, who can afford nearly £25 for a box of six aspect warriors for example.
I was going to get an eldar army with primarily aspect warriors. Not now, sorry.
In fact everything on my wish list is metal. Not that I like metal minis, just the units I like at the moment are all in metal. So bring on the plastics, please.
Until you live in Canada you can't complain. Despite Canadian and US dollars being more or less even, we still pay around 35% more per item. Even with this if they actually fix our prices then the costs of items in canada will go down HURRAH!
I wonder if they'll do Canadians a favour and leave our already inflated prices alone?
Being from Canada, I wonder how this will affect us. The price of GW stuff in Canada is typically 33% more than south of the border despite the near parity of the Canadian dollar to the US dollar that in the last year or two. GW has not changed its prices to reflect this. For example, up here a Chimera is $55 whereas in the US it's $30. Although I figure Canadian prices should be lowered, I wonder if this announcement just gives the company folk the ammo it needs not to.
I wonder if this will affect the AoBR box? If so, time buy a few boxes while they are cheap...
I'm just glad I can still live well enough to spend my money on piles of frivolous toys made out of oil.
To be expected really. It's nice to see that they had the forsight to put a plastics factory in Tennessee, afterall there is only so much currency differential you can eat.
I wonder how every other miniatures manufacturer keeps the price at about 50 percent of the GW prices, even with rising material costs...
Um, excuse me? Other miniature manufacturers are cheap? I don't think so. Have you ever even *looked* at Privateer's prices? Way higher than GW's by a long shot.
This price increase is entirely justified even if the timing is bad. Good luck, GW.
Hmm, that's funny. Maybe if they would make more stuff in plastic and not make it way too expensive, things wouldn't be as pricey as they are now, especially not as expesnive as they will be when the price gets elevated in September. What's really funny, is that the the working masses don't get higher pays or salari's, maybe that would help solving this global problem as well? Watching GW getting richer than they already are is one thing, watching them "excusing" thereselves is plain old laughable. Screw GW.
Just yesterday i commented on the prices...told you =P
but ya, been there, done that. Pretty soon though we're gonna get to a point where ppl just dont start collecting more armies because its a biggers stretch to buy another codex or cool model. Which is sad really, those 20$ codexs realy helped influence me into starting something else, cuz they were cheaper to aquire, especially for youngster starting out. Ahhhh, gone are the days of 20$ boxes of dark eldar warriors...pitty, i actually bought MORE stuff back then. Shame.
But we all know this would have happened anyways, now its just alot easier to justify on GW part, they can just blame the economy for their bad will, but we know they'd do it otherwise without such global turmoil.
As long as they don't raise the plastic prices I'm still happy. I think they are well worth the money and are always increasing in quality.
While I can understand a price increase on the books, didn't we have a price increase on metal mini's less than a year ago?
Even though I can understand GW needing to raise prices again to reflect the current economic situation, doing so is going to simply price them out of many peoples budgets.
Oblits are already $22 each, at $25 thats excessive, in that case why not just buy Terminators and use extra weapons bits and GS to make Oblits?
It seems to me they are going to end up pricing themselves so high that their sales are going to drop at some point here.
I honestly don't know what their equilibrium price is, but I doubt that GW is getting closer to it by raising prices right now.
Everything has recently gone up in pricing. Does it cost more for a Cow to produce milk? no, but it does cost more for the farmer to feed and care for that cow. Then it costs more to run the machines and transport the milk. It costs more to process that milk in to the myraid of items that are made from cows milk. Lastly it costs more to ship it to the final destination so the consumer can buy said milk based products.
That is a "needed" item
GW is a luxury item. AS in the milk example it costs more to simply produce metal figures all around, from the mining of the metals, to the finished product. The actual increase in metals is such a small portion of the GW market as is. Read your own posts, most people prefer plastics. Now is the time to start learning to convert things properly. Get your green stuff out and make yer own Darned Banshee, Vet, whatever. You can get very close with much of the plastic range already out there.
I already only use metals on specific figures, Yeah footing 25$ is a pain compared to 20$ That just means that if I really want that figure, I give up my "double shot, half-skim, caramel, mint, no foam, half-Caff, Mochiatto... cookie" for a day
Hmm. As to be expected, really. What with the outrageous gas prices these days. But, Canada has been dealing with prices rough 33% higher than American prices, so I don't see this affecting people too harshly. I mean, for the most part, the most important parts of ranges are in plastic, and with 5th ed.'s focus on troops, I doubt it'll affect anyone, aside from Witch/Daemonhunters and Eldar/Dark Eldar a bit But, a $30 box only increases to $37.50, I mean, what's that? Gotta skip lunch one day?
I really enjoyed the fire-side chat tone to the letter. "Hey there buddy. We need to have a little chat. Prices for everything is way up and that impacts our bottom line. As a business we need to pass that impact onto your bottom line. You understand, oil and everything. So we're cool right?" A little patronization goes a long way.
I'm Canadian and can certainly agree on the price difference between GW Canada and GW US (but don't get me started on us-canadian dollar trading and how I told people 6 months ago that it wouldn't last...it hasn't).
My plan, since I work in a FLGS, is to set aside anything I want from the metal range now before cost for the store to get them goes up.
Fair? No. But you understand, oil and everything. So we're cool, right?
Well, at least the plastics are all right. Gotta be grateful for that.
Interesting tactic on the part of GW. Normally they give 3 months notice, if not longer about a price hike.
But this time just 1 month.
That should inspire some panic buying!
I know a lot of people complain about the cost of GW miniatures, but when compared to other hobbies like video games, horse riding, rowing...er...other outdoorsey things...and even 'traditional' model kits, they're still quite reasonable.
If the metal price hikes are bad, we'll all be converting plastic commanders.
But then, when you see how many plastic commanders there are, it makes you wonder if GW were preparing for this?
Now lets go pillage some more third world countries for precious oil to turn into plastics. There's never been a better time to support the war effort! (and you think I'm joking!)
I remember buying comics for $.25, I remember gas prices at $.55 a litre, my house I sold 8 years ago would be worth about double now. It's called inflation...it's a fact of life and totally expected! Keep bringing on thr great models for this rediculously fun game and I'll keep on buyin'!
What boggles my mind is that several people have used the excuse "but all those other company's prices are so much lower..." Are you playing the same game? Are you buying the same figures? No other company has ever done anything even close to what GW does with multi-part plastic figures. They have had to build their technology from the ground up, and that costs a lot of money. GW is not just raking in bundles of cash and laughing all the way to the bank, the company is actually struggling to stay in the black. Yes, part of that is due to some bad business decisions, but GW as a company produces nothing but luxury goods, which are the first things to go in people's budgets when the economy starts to suck. Yeah, it's going to suck to have to pay those extra few dollars when we want a new codex, but we will all pay it because no other company has come even close to making games as fun and well supported as GW's.
Yes, it's the same inflation that caused me to now be able to buy two Rhinos, where earlies I bought only one, since our currency got very strong in the past 12 months compared to dollars, euros or british pounds :-)
But hey, as for the price rise...since I collect old metal guardsmen it's not really pleasant for me, but...allright, whatever, I guess I'll just collect them a bit longer than planned, that's all ...
nick siegler:
About that "well-supported" thing - Dark Eldar and especially the Inquisition players might strongly disagree ;-)))))
Other than that, agreed.
GW might keep their profits, but they WILL lose customers.
Price rises happen. Inflation happens.
And even if it's a luxury good, as gas goes up, EVERYTHING goes up because everything has to get somewhere. We're a bit lucky to have escaped any kind of price hike for as long as we did. Anyone noticed their grocery bills and the like creeping on up there?
All else fails, as others have said, recall that this is a luxury purchase. GW feels (if not in actuality, are doing) that they are doing what they have to in order to stay afloat.
You can always vote with your wallet and leave the hobby if the price rises are disagreeable to you (and I'm sure some will) but in general I don't think a lot of people will even notice it. A couple extra bucks for a Codex? While I feel for the guys who pretty much have to run metal minis (IE: the Eldar, for a large part) there's also the reality that those who use mainly plastics aren't going to feel much of a crunch.
Wow that sucks. At least theyre keeping the plastics the same. I hope I can still afford the hobby. I'm 14, so I dont have much cash, and I just started a Vostroyan IG army, so its all metal models. But they have to do what they have to do to stay in business, so I understand where they're coming from.
I love how when a model goes up in price 3 or 4 dollars, everyone calls it expensive. If you wan afford 40k at all the extra 4 dollars is not a problem. I certainly hope there's not people here who are 4 dollars away from not paying rent to play 40k. If so then some priorities are out of whack.
The price of BREAD has gone up considerably, so I don't think the price of something made from oil going up when oil is 120 something $ a barrel is unreasonable.
And every time GW prices go up, people say "screw GW". Then why do you play the game and keep buying their products? Not a very good way to get your point across.
Personally I like plastics better so this doesn't bug me too much. The extra few bucks might be annoying from time to time, but it's worth it to let me build and paint these great miniatures and play this great game.
Agree with Nick - who else does it so well, we love the hobby and the sheer intricacy and love that has gone into all the background and fluff which goes with it - we are supporting our whole hobby universe, if you think GW are ripping you off - check last years sales figures, they made a loss last year folks, we would all be absolutely gutted if they went under
Prices rise - so be it, the price of models has been going up steadily since I started the hobby nearly 20 years ago, but they are by no means the most expensive manufacturer and its nearly always a top quality product (spray gun excepted!).
I must admit that apart from inks and foundation paints I always use Vallejo anyway and their prices seem to be staying put - I for one am tightening my belt with rising fuel and food costs here in the UK (poor harvests and evil oil companies) but I will still buy miniatures, possibly ever so slightly less of them now though but thats life - will encourage me to take more time to paint the ones I do get!
Keep the faith...
Wez - UK
Another fine chapter in GW shooting themselves in the foot. They already base there prices on points values. Special chapters usually being 50%+ more expensive than generic counter parts. GW commitment to plastics is patchy at best and the printed material is heavily over priced.
15-25% increase in white dwarf, when many people already question if it’s worth buying?
GW forget that in a notch market its staying a float that’s important, constantly trying to expand that 10% every year to parade to the shareholders will only over burden an already heavy ship.
It’s amazing that to see that if they haven't learned if they drive off their customer base that they wouldn't have any business and guess what? The shareholders jump ship. But we can always blame pokemon or magic or wii or "interesting times".
A west wide recession is not the time to pass on the blows. GW have made plenty of easy money the last 10 years and it will be interesting to see if they can survive having to work for it now. GW need to start thinking out of the usual box of firing people and rising prices.
well...time to paint what i got! :P
im not into price increases being a teenager but, __________!(insert curse word here). lol
I've never posted on this board, but the sheer lunacy of some of these responses absolutely boggles me.
1) As has been previously noted GW is not a profit machine, in large part due to the fact that the miniature business does not lend itself to higher margins. (Well that and the compnay management had made some poor decisions).
2) They're not 50% above other mini vendors. There are vendors that charge less particularly those that are willing to run at a loss in order to capture some level of market share. These firms will either be gone when they fail to get that share or raise prices to GW or higher levels (see Privateer Press) if they manage to get a foothold.
3) Turns out market prices really do reflect supply and demand. If you and other likeminded folks stop buying GW products (and there are enough of you) then the GW will either drop prices or, if they can't be profitable at lower prices, go out of business. My bet is that GW survives just fine in the mess.
This explains why they aren't restocking any of the sisters of battle or Grey knight kits.
I understand the concerns of Canadians who pay more, but I don't think any price adjustment will be coming for them.
You see, the value of the US dollar has fallen, the Canadian dollar's value has remained more or less unchanged. So it might make sense to raise prices in the US to match those in Canada, but I don't think that's likely.
I hope over here in Europe the prices wont rise (at least that much).
Compared to the Us prices i wondered sometime how those work out for them. (Europe / UK prices were 30-50% higher; for example a Landraider costs 50€, in the US that would be about 75$ and regarding plastic and metal its often the same rice in $ as it was in €; while the taxes are different its is not THAT much)
Regarding the $ and the rising costs it had to come sometimes.
This sucks you'd think a slight increase of there already high prices thru out their line would off set a such a leap of up to 25%.
It just gonna make metal less desireable to LGS owners and they arn't goona stock as much. GW wants to be a all plastic company anyway because the sprus cost mere pennies to produce. Maybe if they would go back to selling sprus or just opening a few boxed sets they could save money by not shipping an entire soulgrinder as a replacement for 1 missing spru free of charge. Bad bussines pratices all around.....
It just means more frequent usage of ebay or similar for me I guess, a bit of shopping around can save you a pound or two.
Where GW falls down is the 'GW does not have sales' attitude. Where this price rise to be combined with a 'post rise' sale to show loyalty to customers, I would be happier. But 25% increase? they only put the prices up a very short time ago, I think perhaps the lady dost protest to much. GW like money, punks like us would continue to buy these little men if they were 5 times the price, why not cash in? sucks but true. We live in interesting times already, interesting in that GW established and continue to maintain a complete monopoly with no real competitors, or liklihood of such competitors emerging. Save up guys and gals, expense follows expense just as excuse follows excuse.
End rant.
Embittered veteran, counting his pennies.
It's frustrating especially for people in Canada & the US. But this was coming. The weak dollar and the pound's strength v. the Euro, along with the high cost of oil are the real problem.
Of course GW could let staff go - but that would be very very bad news. For their employees sake I hope that doesn't happen, BUT I reckon it will if the global economy doesn't pick-up soon.
The things that are causing this price increase are outside GW's control. Hell, they're outside the control of every government on the planet.
From now on everything is going to cost more: clothes, food, waste disposal - and these are necessities. Warhammer is a game and playing games in an adult world costs money - especially during a global recession.
@ I've never posted on this board, but the sheer lunacy of some of these responses absolutely boggles me.
You can say that again! Some of the suggestions here are, how should I say it politely, less than practical. Seriously, GW like all companies could improve some of their practices to save money, but some of the nitpicking here is ridiculous if not outright irrational. For example, knocking their excellent customer service. Years ago GW had poor customer service when it came to replacing missing or defective product and their business hardly grew in those days. Breaking up already packaged sets doesn't save them money as it the now unused box and extra product cost more money to process in some manner than to toss out, hence they sometimes send a whole box when replacements are needed. This is just one example of an impractical suggestion above. Seriously, leave the financial analysis to the experts.
bah, this is my first post here, as i can't really stand all that complaining
at last all you people in the west can see how it is to collect gw stuff in poland, prices over here have been around 20% higher when compared to the rest of the world for a long time now
bearing in mind that generally earnings and life standards are lower in poland i don't see that much of a deal with the price increase in west europe/usa
the prices over here should get really nasty after september, so i suggest you people stop complaining because you'll have it easier anyway [;
cheers,
yamunori
Meh soo expensive... cant... afford...
:( big sad face
well at least there was a justification for this.
Bet you all feel bad for thinking the hippies where all full of crap when they where going on about protecting the environment years ago. BRING ON THE APOCALYPSE!!!!
i just hope zombies turn up soon enough fore me to enjoy it.
Over the past year the cost of my gas/electricity/petrol and food has all increased sognificantly. Does this mean I will not eat/wash/be warm or cycle everywhere? NO.
I will still buy my toys, because it is something I like doing, just like eating etc....
Not that they're all that comparable, but video games have been expensive for a very long time imo. I get a whole lot more enjoyable time with my minis that I do from most (not all , mind you)
video games. I mean, going to the movies has gotten pretty pricey, and that's only like 3 hours (at most) of entertainment.
I think the biggest change for me is going to be not buying that new army, but just bolstering the armies that I already have. Who needs 6 or 7 armies anyway? lol
Guess i wont be starting that new imperial guard army when the new codex comes out "(
I actually appreciate the tone they took in the letter and the fact they actually gave us a reason. It could have looked like this:
Dear sheep,
We're raising out prices because we feel like it and there's nothing you can do about it! Suck it! Hahaha!
GW
Also, as an IG player, I made the decision long ago that as cool as the Steel Legions are, they're still guardsmen, and NOT worth $35 per squad, so I only buy plastics if I can help it.
wow....didn't see that coming...
once again, GW loves to stick to their customers and act like they are feeling bad about it.
will i continue to buy their products and play? yes. but it doesn't mean that i have to like paying their prices. from now on, i will no longer buy from their stores. i'll order online from other vendors.
they acknowledge that times are tough, but its tough for all of us. pretty soon, if things continue, hobbyists will obligations will be forced to make a choice and that will usually be to cut out the fun things.
To be perfectly honest, GW has done well restraining themselves from jumping on the bandwagon and a perfect excuse to pull up already skyrocketing prices (and profits). That this is being passed onto other parts of the hobby(s) is a good idea but it doesn't work. I remember when paint pots were worth £1:50. They still are worth £1:50. This next hike should put them to around £2:50. And codex books are massively overpriced anyway. Well f*ck
I thought GW pulled bitz from the marketplace so they could survive longer. Now it's clear they just wanted an increased profit margin. Thank you very much Workshop,
well, for me the problem is that in my country an average salary is 750$ per month.
Land rider costs around 90-100$.
When you remember that 1,5 year ago you paid 3,5 PLN for a dollar and now you pay less than 2,3 PLN (pound faced a similar trend, a fall from 6 to 4PLN) and you haven't seen a single price drop during that time you really want to laugh when someone says that economy makes them rise their prices. Maybe it is not the fault of GW, I don't know. But the Canadian example makes me wonder.
well as a marine player im not gonna panic to much
what youve got to remember is gw are a business like any other- and they do want to make a profit
They did a simple price elasticity of demand calculation. They know from experience the extra revenue from a price rise will more than make up for the loss of sales. Once people are in the hobby, they don't just stop buying due to a small price rise now and then.
Is it reprehensible? Yes.
Is it capitalism? Yes.
GW has made some weird business decisions lately:
Highly successful RPGs? Farm them out.
Loyal fiction readers? Screw them with "bonus" material in omnibuses of stories they have already and limited edition chapbooks they won't be able to get.
Component mailorder? Down the pan. Buy the box. Enjoy the waste.
Lashing thousands down the drain on laser resin plastic prototypes? Cheap to develop metal minis go up in price.
High pressure sales in store? Customers go to eBay, third party stockists or just buy what they want and leave. (This one really gripes me; I used to enjoy spending time in a GW shop. Now it's like the forecourt of a car dealership.)
They don't seem to realise that pricing up their product pushes them further down the list of priorities. Frankly, I've spent 3 years on my 1000pts of Tyranids, I can spend another 4 or 5 for the other half now.
Let's be honest here.
In Britain, the price of a loaf of bread has doubled. You get no more than you used too.
Petrol is up between 20-50% depending on where you are.
Taxes have risen.
On the other hand, around half of the range for GW is going up no more than 25%, which is pittence really. Also, yes the new SM Codex is £3 (25%) more. But it also has 75% more pages (80 to 144) The plastics are far, far better (BfBR has over 50 models, compared with BfM 24ish.)
Please people, get some perspective.
this is bull, im 14 and i already have to wait like a month to get a a couple things from GW now i dont know if im even goin to continue to buy there mini's, i might just paint what i have and play with just that!
i don't give a "crap" what I have to pay, as long as I can buy and paint a few pieces a year. Now if they made oodles of profit off of me, Yeah! Another succesful business momodel in this day and age. GW, I fully support you.
Oh, and by the way I am sixteen and I can't find a job that doesn't insult me.
Thank god most marine and Chaos bits are Plastic.
I guees Im gonna have to go out and buy the Eldar Elites now rather than later, if I can find the money.
I just gotta say that, yes, a price rise sucks, but when you think about it its not That bad. Like otheres have said its a luxery item. happily i have a nice check every two weeks to put towards that as im young and not paying bills/ supporting a family but ehn. Besides all the fun is realy in converting the plastics, I say they should switch more things to plastic. I would personal LOVE to see a plastic Commissar model, and the Imperial officer from the baneblade can't count as its an add on to a 90 $ canadian box lol.
well...
if you are so poor, you can't afford to pay 25% more for what makes up between 10% and around 50% of your hobby (denepding on % of metal minis in the army. low for newer armies, higher for older ones) which is a LUXURY, you might have to think over your financial situation.
I like GW's products and I'll continue to buy them. Yeah, SOME things have gone out of whack (haha obliterators 20€... 5 of them 100€ while a box of termies is 35€ and 2 boxes of devas are 60€ which makes me 5 nice oblis as well as a squad of marines...gogo palstics!) but you can work your way around it, build them from other things or just leave them out. I have been doing pretty well without obliterators so far.
and if this helps GW speed up on switching over to all-plastics its even better. if you think about transprotation costs, you can see where the high price for metal things is coming. I mean an obliterator is nearly as heavy as a landraider...
Well, although I was expecting this for a long time, the extent of the price increase is quite shocking.
However, most of it does not really affect me, even when I am currently building a new army.
Price increase on paint an brushes? Up yours, they were crap when I started the hobby and they still provide serious suction. Haven't bought a GW paint pot since... well... 2006, if I remember correctly.
Price increase on metal? Up yours again, at 2000 points I only got two metal models in my army... and I already own them.
Price increase on printed items? That's the only thing that really p*sses me off. Considering their quality (both from the printing/fabrication as well as the layout point of view), Games Workshop's publications have always been priced WAY to high. But now, it's becoming antic.
In the end, it's simple. I'm leaning back and await the day when Games Workshop officials realize that it is better to sell 10 boxes of minis for 30,- each than selling 7 boxes for 40,- each...
And now for something completely different:
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"Oh, and by the way I am sixteen and I can't find a job that doesn't insult me." (iantaylor, a few comments above me)
----
Your dream jobs aren't waiting for you, you gotta look for them. And that means doing jobs you don't like for a while. Sean Connery was working as a gravedigger for some time. Keep it up, it gets better.
But: if you think that certain jobs are just below your level- and that's why you don't want to do them- I can only say: people with that certain attidtude deserve to be shot in the woods. That attitude disgusts me.
I think GW has made some horrible decisions to land it where it is. But a price raise isnt 100% their fault. Doesnt mean they went about it the right way, but its not a total surprise.
As far as profits, I tend to buy perhaps a few blisters or one boxed item a month, most people I know do about the same. Say 30$US/month. Or maybe 1$US/day as an easier figure.
Thats 356$/year from me. At 50% profit (after working retail in a games store Im confident that its around that as a ballpark value) they make 178$/year off me.
To run a single games workshop store with say 5 part time employees, you need to make around 100k$US/year just to pay your staff. To turn a profit you might aim to do double that. Meaning they would have to have ~1124 customers that buy at my level, per store, per year.
Which is a pretty tall order. Assuming people buy at my level per purchase, thats 37 sales per day. Which can be a pretty big number to reach, even if youre open 8am to 10pm thats 2-3 sales an hour.
I dont really see people buying something every 20 minutes when Im in a GW store. Even if they aimed to make half as much profit at a 90% margin its a sale every hour and a half. Still harder to do but closer to what I see everytime Im there. And I doubt theyre making 90% profit per item, trying just to make enough to cover costs. So theyre going to be looking for sales at a faster rate than that.
Which means their either making TONS via mail order, or the sales they make are BIG, especially big relative to every gamer I know; or theyre not raking in as much as one might think. Partly due to bad decisions on their end, true. Like paying a lot of staffers to stand in their stores trying to sell you crap and nothing else.
Anyhow, paying ~450$/yr instead of ~360$/yr wont break the bank here. But it will be prohibitive for folks starting new armies instead of expanding the ones they have.
Just wanted to throw some math out there, lot of posts were pure opinion with no fact. I know what I posted is just guesstimates but, its more useful than nothing.
I see a lot of doom and gloom, but a lot what I see is from people who seem to be operating solely in a GW microcosm. Privateer Press recently raised there prices as well (for the second time) for similar reasons and, as alrady mentioned, they were already way more pricey.
It sucks, but its not just GW.
The full price change sheet is 11 pages long, but we'll be happy to share individual price changes if needed. Most of the prices fall into these areas however:
Paints will increase from $3 to $3.5, including Foundation, and washes. Metallics will not be affected.
Primers will increase from $10 to $15, except roughcoat, which will become $17.
Codexes and Army Books will shift from $22 to $25.
Blisters will shift a price code, for a $2-3 increase in price (8-10, 10-12, 12-15, 15-17,17-20, etc).
Most Metal Boxed sets will increase $5 in price (20-22, 22-25, 25-30, 30-35, etc)
Paint sets, templates, and other misc product will also increase, generally in the same manner as above.
NO PLASTIC SETS are affected by this price change, including each game's starter boxed set (which are all plastic).
sorry, forgot to include name /url on last post :)
All I know from what I have seen of GW is that they really need to get new accountants/command of what is going on. I stopped doing WD becuase of the prices increases and lack of content. I stoped buying all the codex for both 40k and Warhammer becuase it just became a waist of time with the redue every couple years or compleat lack of support. How many epic games are out there? How many times have the rereleased Gothic but its all the same old stuff and not redone?
Yes their prices are going up, but they really need to look at what they are doing and say... lets rework this to were it work and we dont have to kill our player base.
Yes I understand Inflation (accounting major). Were is the quality control? with 5th edition there has been a change but still need to work on it and this price increase is going to kill alot of new purchases localy.
"All in favor of a 15% pay raise?"
All hand rises.
"But how do we pay for it?"
"All in favor of increasing the price of the products and blaming it on "oil" like everybody else?"
All hand rises.
Sometimes GW deserves the slow lazy hand clap.
Well let's look at the country of origin on a few items....
40K5e book...Printed in China as the last half dozen books I've bought from GW.
Their manufacturing facility in good 'ol Memphis, Tennessee, USA is practically a tomb. Metal blisters are all being made in the UK and shipped out to Memphis.
GW is paying....er...making us pay more for outsourcing and poor decisions.
All shipping companies are adding outrageous fuel surcharges to everything they ship now. Pallets are getting hit with surcharges in excess of $300. That adds up!
I still love the game and models and won't quit playing, though I certainly won't be buying models like I used to. And I'm shifting to Vallejo and Coat d'Arms (the original GW formula) whose bottles don't allow the paint to dry out.
Interesting to hear all the comments on the price rises.
Here in Australia our prices have always been falsely inflated well above the exchange rate which is why I buy from international mail order companies and make a saving of between 33% and 50% on each item even with postage factored in.
I see the major effect of this prie change impacting paints and pinted materials rather than the armies themselves but I feel a lot of sympathy for the guys who need numerous metal minis to complete their army.
It's not a surprise, and has been said numerous times, it is a luxury, a hobby and not a necessity.
Also remember GWs target market, 9-14 year olds who generally don't care about value and use the nag factor to get what they want.
I've been a GW player for 25 years and I don't see it ending anytime soon, just means my Valhallans won't be expanding anytime soon.
Expected and accepted.
GW is just killing themselves slowly with the pirce increases. But since I have all the models I could every need I doubt the price increase with affect me much. The second hand market is my friend.
re: "All hand rises."
wow. just wow.
The fact that this thread is almost evenly divided between the two schools of thought makes me almost sick. No one seems to be really be responding to anything that has already been said, its just venom at this nebulous "they" that's decided to take your money.
Like "they" are raising the prices so that "they" can make more money. Look at the numbers, GW is not making gigantic profit, there was like 1% last year. That additional money isn't going to pockets of employees who set the prices you retard, its going towards shipping, and starting new stores, and paying those redshirts that have to deal with jerks like you during their shifts.
Anon August 23, 2008 8:42 PM: you make me ashamed to enjoy the same hobby as you.
(Your dream jobs aren't waiting for you, you gotta look for them. And that means doing jobs you don't like for a while. Sean Connery was working as a gravedigger for some time. Keep it up, it gets better.
But: if you think that certain jobs are just below your level- and that's why you don't want to do them- I can only say: people with that certain attidtude deserve to be shot in the woods. That attitude disgusts me.)
Sorry to have made you so angy, I guess I should have mentioned that I regularly submit short stories to a few literary magazines, take apart and troubleshoot computers daily and don't go to tournaments because of people like you, but I try to be humble and funny, for those of you that know what humor is. No I did not mean that I will not work at ____ because I am better than that, I was merely trying to produce a little chuckle. From the lack of mentioning the test of my post, I imagine you agree with capitolism.
This hobby is already wicked expensive. If it were cheaper to begin with I could understand where they were coming from, but how do you really think it costs them anywhere near 15-20 dollars for a single metal mini? I understand they're in it for the profit, but even with rising gas prices I'm sure it doesn't cost them more than maybe 2 or 3 dollars per mini being sold at the new price around 15-20 dollars (for blisters of course, excluding ven dreadnaughts and such) which I might add there's really not all that much more metal in a ven dread than in Chief Librarian Tigurius... so why does it cost 50 bucks? Because I'm not paying for the metal or shipping or whatever, I'm paying for what the unit does in the game.
Ps. Wow, Are you serious?
A few tidbits I've been hearing.
Knowing lots of people who work for GW in high places on the Canadian side of things. This was something coming forward since prior to June.
If some of you are not aware GW Canada and GW US are one entity now. Traditionally GW Canada has tried to set their prices to match the going price of the UK where as the US went with their own price listing. Anyways I was informed months back the both Canada and the US prices would be shifting to a more equal pricing. I guess instead of Canadian prices going down the US are coming up.
Aside from this news the 2 points where GW truly shot themselves in the foot was a)when they made it almost impossible for the small independent hobby stores to sell their products with a decent return. b) when the company went to public trading.
Over at least 12 stores in my city that use to carry GW stuff don't anymore because the return is not their.
Lastly I see these changes having 3 effects:
The hardcore collector/gamer will still pay the going price whatever it becomes.
Casual gamers could either quit or keep going
Newcomers to the hobby and game will dramatically decreas due to the discouraging high price.
Let's hear it for Sir Nurglepuss, folks, the most pragmatic, civil, and insightful gamer in this diatribe.
We're all geeks, you arseholes and elbows, so sack up and ask for a raise.
AND count your pennies, as the Sir hath mentioned.
aww man I was just about to collect a new full metal witch hunters army, meh GW's reasons are good so I can't complain. I'm amazed they didn't raise the price earlier, everything else has been going up.
i live in australia, and even though the aus dollar is pretty strong against the usd right now (or it was a little while ago), im paying way more than an yanks. not too much to make it ridiculous, but just enough to make a difference.
in the case of a tyranid carnifex, usd 45.00, that becomes 51.8063 aus dollar, but looking on the aus online store its priced at 65.000 aus dollars. that doesnt seem like much, and it isnt, but across a 2000 point army thats quite a bit of money.
then again, you cant change prices every coupla months to make it fair (omg i said the f word), GW is a business and therefore their worlds is (should it?) be infinite grey. so you can ignore my comment if u want.
as for a price hike ill just weather the storm, cop it on the chin, etc etc
the reason prices are higher in australia and canada than in the US is because of how strong there respective currencies are against Stirling as the UK is where GW headquaters are
Quote"the reason prices are higher in australia and canada than in the US is because of how strong there respective currencies are against Stirling as the UK is where GW headquaters are"
I'm afraid that the exchange rate has little to do with it.
It comes down to market forces.
Speaking of Australia GW has to contend with very large country (it's almost the size of the US and bigger than Europe) with a small population distributed around the land mass.
Combined with a distinct lack of competitors and a higher overall standard of living than the UK means GW can set prices higher.
I don't know the situation in Canada but I assume it is somewhat similar.
The supply and demand principal also applies to character miniatures, dreads etc due to the same supply-demand principles as already stated.
I applaud GW for their decision to keep plastic prices low.
Maybe something for GW to consider though, why does it cost me the same to buy a FW Dread direct from the UK as it does to buy a plastic one from my LGS?
There are a lot of interesting comments here. I feel that while the tone of the letter is somewhat patronizing, price increases are a part of everyday life. As for the pro-GW stance, I have to disagree. GW has had higher prices over PP when you compare the amount of models purchased for an army. GW has totally, and I mean completely, failed to support many of the armies with updated Codices, and now if and when those books come out, you will pay more. GW has claimed recently that their bad habits will end, that White Dwarf will be better, that armies will see better support. I have yet to see any evidence of that, but when those changes come, we will all be paying a lot more.
Privateer Press has had one price increase since their inception, and while they have had less time in the field, they certainly have been more prolific and supportive of their games.
If I have to pay more for minis, books, paints, and affiliated materials, I'll spend that money with a company that has earned my respect as a gamer.
I say this to you all, having played Warhammer 40,000 since before there were army lists. I have been in since the beginning but I really don't see any benefit with staying in this game. I never felt that a new edition of the game was warranted with so many outdated codices, and this news pretty much seals the deal for me.
@ Hatchett
Ahhhh you have improved my mood good Sir, I salute you. (Jingle Jingle - pockets full of pennies).
I was feeling sorry for the young 'uns this morning, but then stopped to think, they can afford £40 for a computer game, what am I on about! :P
To those of you complaining about GW AU's pricing (I feel the sting, being from Melbourne), start hitting eBay and sites like Maelstrom to purchase all your stuff. The $150AU battleforce boxes cost me around $95 from the UK. Anyway, even with a price hike on some of the range I'm sticking with GW for now...
GW's reasons for its price increase is about as believable as the old saying " Don"t worry, I will pull out!" In the end someone has their pants around their ankles since they just got screwed in both cases.
Yes, prices have increased world wide due to all the reasons listed, however when you already charge an absorbent price for a product that isn't really needed by anyone, you will decrease sales and profit overall even though you will increase profit per unit. Simple economics but then again why would I expect the makers of the current Chaos Codex to understand logic and statistics?
Good luck GW, you seem to have a plan! The problem that I see is that some of your customers also have a plan and that one may not include you in the future.
First let me say i dont work for GW but am a manage a pestcontrol company so i know a bit about economics AND GW as ive been hobby modeling 40K stuff for 20 years now.
Well, EVERYONES raising prices. we have at our place or work aswell. i also believe that this is a trend to lessen the use of metal minis in their productline.
we see this trend w/ more and more plastic kits, 2/3 in 1 variant kits as the crusader, landspeeders and Leman russ next year. easier to stock, transport, and manufacture as well less space on store shelves.
all this will cut costs, amke it easier for independant retailers to carry a wellrounded amount of product, AND allow for smaller streamlined stores.
people probably thought it was BS when movies at a theatre went from a nickel to a dime (decades ago!) but thats life. noone has a gun tou your head. work hard, purchase wisely, and let the chips fall where they may.
i am share holder even with the price rise i will stil make less profit this is going eszy on you guys
Well, as quite a few have previously said, GW products are luxury products. Since January I have purchased 5'000 points each of 40K Orkz and Blood Angels and 2'500 points to complete my old teenage Wood Elves army.
I can do that because I live in a "double income, no kids" situation, but if we had kids, these purchases would quickly drop to almost zero.
I think far more important than the actual GW price is one's life situation. If one has less money, it's just the collecting process that is being slowed down. If GW hurts anything, then it is their Apocalypse line has people will play smaller armies. However, unlike with PC games that are being dropped when played through, collecting miniatures is something that you will enjoy ten years later still.
I for my part will just stick to my three existing armies and purchase the new stuff that is being released for them. If I am short on money, it doesn't matter. I have plenty of time.
What's bothering me far more than the understandable price rises are the comments on this board displaying a huge amount of prejudice and hostility to poor people. As well as being a father I need to care for my mother, which means I'm stuck on benefits. A good job is out of the question, partly because of my circumstances and partly because there are no good jobs within a fifty mile radius of where I live. To the sixteen year old who said he can't find a job who doesnt insult him, I sympathise entirely. Im in my late twenties and have a degree and still cant find a job that doesnt insult me.
This is what GW arent considering, things are tough all over.
To the people saying 'if you're that poor you need to look at your economic situation' and 'people with that attitude deserve to be shot', you make me fucking sick and I dont care if I get banned from this site for saying so. I've seldom encountered such arrogant, mercinary bastards in all my life. People like you are whats wrong with this world.
Sorry to anyone offended by the last line of my last post. I'd go back & edit it if I could.
Anon 8:49. I totaly and wholeheartedly agree with you. My brother was in much the same boat as you, minus the looking after mom part, its dad that needs help as hes wheelchair bound now. He has a degree in computer security investigations and he couldnt find a job in his field for a few years. As to what you said about the, and i qoute "arrogant, mercinary bastards" ...That is so freaking true and if you get banned from this site for saying so than i think the admin need to take a look at themeselves and fix something, cuz its the people who are putting down the less of that need to be banned. We are a community of equals, not a community of the well off victomizeng the less well off.
Like i said before though, plastic kits are wonderfuly creative. If games workshop came out with a multi part plastic guard kit, with maybe a universal set of legs, but have optioonal torso's for cadians, valhallanes, mordians and the others all in plastic, that would be bliss.
Plus they should come out with a new torso more like the body armour in starship troopers... that way with the elysian lasguns.... hehehe
"ugust 24, 2008 8:49 AM"
Thank you sir you are one of those few people that I am glad to call a human being.
I simply didn't even have a real reason to collect an army till last month, when I found someone that lives 15 miles away that plays, up until that point I just bought piecemeal, assembling and painting when a had spare time. Now that I have a group to play with I will buy a few more dollars worth a year, and wait until the fabled "Codex: Traitor Legions"
Thank you, all who responded to my last post. Thank you very much for reminding me that there are caring people and people of integrity and that many of them are 40k players :) A toast to you, my fellow compassionate human beings
P.S. Hi commissar, me again (Anon). I really should stop ranting about things on this board *blush* thanks for the support though
We all leave a ton of miniatures sitting around unpainted anyway. This price increase is unfortunate, but it's also a reason to slow down buying miniatures that aren't going to be used until they're painted.
I haven't bought anything significant from GW for retail price in at least 6 years. I started this hobby back in 1990 and I've seen their prices steadily rise in times when there was no gas crunch, economies were stronger and the company was smaller.
You want perspective? Any GW independent retailer knows how they operate and the stipulations they require to actually sell their products. GW's traditionally been the most expensive miniatures line because they've always considered themselves a premium line. They had no real competition in the 90s and they were still exorbitant. And that was when you could buy 2 Rhinos in a box or get a 5 man squad in a blister.
We want to be GW apologists because we love the game - and they count on this - but I feel very sorry for the kids I've gotten into the game having to start out buying retail. If I were getting into the game for the first time now, I'd pass it up for something else as far to expensive. On the upside, my collection has appreciated in value, but I'll only ever buy from EBay or Bartertown.
One thing seems to be pretty consistent throughout this thread, both the for and against camps are saying that they are gonna have to buy less, buy from other sources or quit. The price increases will also put off new customers and especially piss off vets (I personally have already seen an average 50% increase in prices since I started collecting and even back then I thought it was very expensive!). I understand that production and transportation costs are increasing, but the costs were already inexcusably high and were pushing people out of collecting so I think most of the increases are unjustifiable and they won't work for them anyway. I wouldn't mind a slight increase in the cost of the books, but only so they could hire a proof reader and improve their poor rule support, not to subsidise fuel.
Gaming is addictive and GW do produce (for the most part) awesome minis so people will keep coming back but does anyone want to join me in boycotting GW for at least the first few weeks of the price increases? A few people quitting won't make them rethink their strategy only a concerted effort of people vastly reducing the amount they buy or quitting will make a difference.
At least plastics will still be very, very expensive as opposed to very, very, very expensive. Now is the time of sculpting, scratch building and converting!
I've tried being supportive and understanding of GWs actions over the last 9 years but their constant efforts to piss off and push their consumers away is just disgusting. So FU GW!
Ed
they didnt mention resin models... i wonder if this will effect Forge World who's models are already more expensive.
~kings
i heard its going by categories, like category A going up to B, eg your falcon £25 will go up to £30(prism), prism going up to £35(land raider)
hey Anon, no problem whatsoever for the support. rants are fun anyways lol. By the way mate do you have an email adress I might contact you on?
@ian taylor:
Sorry, mate, didn't really see the humor in there. I got so many dealings in my company with people who really think that they are better than the jobs that are offered, so please excuse me for being a bit sensitive on that particular topic.
And yeah, I agree with the concept of capitalism. Maybe because I am on the winning side of it. But that's not on discussion here.
Business is business, what can you do?
The world economy is in a state of flux and paying a few dollars extra for our hobby should be the least of our concerns.
Try food and energy for future generations instead...
@ commissar
Yeh, you can drop me a line at keepers.of.the.book@hotmail.com
Of course if we carpet bomb china with neutron bombs then demand for metal, oil and other commodities will drop.
Then GW can keep their prices low.
How many game companies have survived as long as GW?
well...this is a kick in the ass to finally buy the Metal Empire Warrior Preist...I just hope that glue and primer doesnt raise..6$ for glue is as much as I'm going to pay.
Its suprizing that the Plastic models are pretty cheap, considering most Model Kit manufacture's prices have been going up for example Trumpeter AFV Club plastic model kits have gone up.
What is also suprizing is that its the metal kits that are going up, considering they are already overpriced! 3 screamers... £18? so we can see 3 of these guys goin up to £20+ & Greater daemons goin up to £35? I know GW is a non profit company, but they are gonna become a rich kids hobby! & means alot less younger poorer people will be draw to the hobby!
Too bad but expected.
Don't think it will ruin my day or make me skip 40k. We should be happy that it is just the metal range and books.
Would be sad to see drop pods cost more than the reported 30$.
@kevin
"re: "All hand rises."
wow. just wow.
The fact that this thread is almost evenly divided between the two schools of thought makes me almost sick. No one seems to be really be responding to anything that has already been said, its just venom at this nebulous "they" that's decided to take your money.
Like "they" are raising the prices so that "they" can make more money. Look at the numbers, GW is not making gigantic profit, there was like 1% last year. That additional money isn't going to pockets of employees who set the prices you retard, its going towards shipping, and starting new stores, and paying those redshirts that have to deal with jerks like you during their shifts.
Anon August 23, 2008 8:42 PM: you make me ashamed to enjoy the same hobby as you."
It isn't my fault that "they" can't seem to run the business right to make a profit. When "they" are screwing around and making poor decisions that cost a boat load of money it serves them right. Spray gun for example. Did "they" test it out before mass producing it? "They" shouldn't be going and offload the cost of their stupidity on the customers. I bet none of "they" took a pay cut for that matter either.
As for paying the redshirts to deal with me as a jerk....well guess what, I am the customer so deal with me.
Perhaps "they" can stop playing games and get back to business yo make a profit.
As for calling me retard....you can suck where the sun don't shine.
Anon August 24 12:00 pm :
"I just hope that glue and primer doesnt raise..6$ for glue is as much as I'm going to pay."
Holy Hell...I am going to pretend that you did NOT just claim you were paying $6 for GW glue...If you are, save yourself the $3 (so you can add it to your funds for buying your Empire Warrior Priest) and go buy Zap-a-Gap at a (non GW) hobby store, failing that, any of the 10 or so brands of Cyanoacrylate (CA or super glue)at the Home Depot or Lowes will do nicely.
@ Anon August 24 12:00 pm:
Oh yeah, and buy some primer for $3 or so a can while you're there...f*ck,no wonder GW is raising prices, they must all think we're made of money the way some people dole it out on their outrageous hobby supplies...You need needle files...Harbor Freight or Micro-Mark (HF first though).
Heh, yea seriously, anybody who buys any of the glues from GW should go into the real world more.
All can be bought from regular department stores for roughly half the price. And they last longer. I've been using the same 1 Fl Oz Model Master plastic glue bottle for the past 6 years and it hasn't let me down.
My opinion on the price hike: expected, and pleasantly surprised that it won't effect plastics. Huzzah!
nooo!!!!! id better buy the paints quickly.
does this mean the sm blister prices arent final?
On a side note Tom Kirby (Chairman) bought 100,000 shares of GW , and this right before the price increase. If investors see the price increase as a good thing, Tom will be making a nice bit of change.
They really need to find a way to make cheaper models and make more of them while keeping the price low. Do they outsource any of their production? I can't remember the last time I actually bought a gw product directly. I get it all second hand or off of ebay. If they could just simply make their prices that of what a normal chunk of plastic should be, then more people will buy them and they'll make a lot more profits by expanding their customer base to people that can actually afford their damn stuff instead of limiting it to a select few who have the luxury to spend a few $100 on some pieces of plastic.
The basic issue is that when GW talks about rising commodity costs, we have no idea how those increased prices actually impact their costs. How much does it cost to design a mini? How much does it cost to stamp out a sprue of plastics? Are the older metals still metal because they have to be (ie: old molds for the tried and true) or because they can be (ie: that's $17 for that terminator captain, thank you ...)
GW does gouge its players ... it's understandable (they're not a charity after all) ... but that lack of any clear schema for how rising commodity costs are impacting production costs means that we can only assume they're up to their usual bastard-ish-ness vis a vis sticking it to their consumers.
Oh well, at least Ebay is still glutted with plastic and OOP Metal that someone else has taken the initial hit on.
Will they lose customers?
Absolutely.
Will those of us who really like their stuff / their games keep buying?
Absolutely.
Nobody quits smoking when they raise the price of cigarettes, right?
honestly, if the game is too expensive, stop playing. this is the equivalent of somebody who bought a hummer and now complains about gas prices. do you know what is cheap? world of warcraft. why not try your hand at that?
i am not saying that i like the fact that they are raising their prices, but if it truly bothered me, i would stop buying them.
i guess a reasonable alternative to 98% of peoples gripes with gw is then do better yourself. if you are unhappy with an army book they put out, try writing one yourself, remember to make everyone else happy whilst doing so.
as an alternative to buying gw models, why not try hacking a block of plastic up and making your own?
gw is not an evil empire, and to suggest that they make decisions in order to personally piss YOU off, is ignorant.
the game we play is not necessary for survival, and the fact that you get upset about something like this as if it were, means that gw is at least doing something right.
Keep it clean folks,
I've just removed a handful of comments from folks who went over the line.
We're talking about the prices on collectible toys, not life and death issues.
Wow. I am pretty much priced right out of market. 15-25%?! Holy S&**.
you think you have it bad my local IR is raising on plastics to so i will be doing some panic buying
I kinda expected it really. I mean, AUS prices are about ... 1.5 times higher than in other places?
But what I'm really gonna cry about is my planned SOB army. I think it just got crushed.
Well, life goes on. I'll live. However, if the price of WD rises, I'm not buying it anymore. I think it's barely worth it now, but if 25% added...
But fear not: for it is the high point of inflation. One day, in the future, GW will be pleased to annouce a 35% price discount. Then, we cann al rejoice.
they can go die if they think i am going to buy something else! i remember one year ago when on the white dwarf ( i think the one with the dark angels) i red that the prince will increase, but this is far too much!! i am not a rich man, and i barely can buy a paint a week.. and the only thing that i found reasonable the price, was the paints and the codex.... at lest i have bought practically everything i need but for example , the new codex space marine ruins everything.. there are too many awesome new models i would buy, but i can't. i now only a thing.. I AM GOING TO STEAL A LOT! wtf!!
yes indeed the prices are very high now, and they are increasing them. i think that in 2-3 years, there will be no more customers! and one thing is certain the wd, i would buy it anymore!
Anonymous // August 24, 2008 9:50 PM
honestly, if the game is too expensive, stop playing. this is the equivalent of somebody who bought a hummer and now complains about gas prices. do you know what is cheap? world of warcraft. why not try your hand at that?
--No, World of Warcraft is not cheap. MMORPGs are expensive, both in time, internet connection, the PC needed to run the program, and the endless updates
i am not saying that i like the fact that they are raising their prices, but if it truly bothered me, i would stop buying them.
i guess a reasonable alternative to 98% of peoples gripes with gw is then do better yourself. if you are unhappy with an army book they put out, try writing one yourself, remember to make everyone else happy whilst doing so.
--Right. Nearly everyone who plays GW games has the resources to create a new game/codex. We also have the ability to publish and distribute said items. GW will sue your @$$ off if you did something like that.
as an alternative to buying gw models, why not try hacking a block of plastic up and making your own?
--I looked up the word "Juvenile" in the dictionary, and this sentence was used as an example. Instead of hacking models out of blocks of plastic, why didn't you suggest making money out of paper and crayons?--
gw is not an evil empire, and to suggest that they make decisions in order to personally piss YOU off, is ignorant.
--Yes they are. They are the microsoft of miniatures gaming. They have taken distributor's lists of game stores and attempted to contact those stores with the express purpose of cutting out games distributors. They were successfully sued in the United States for unfair business practices.--
the game we play is not necessary for survival, and the fact that you get upset about something like this as if it were, means that gw is at least doing something right.
--This argument is ridiculous. No one here has said they can't live without their games. You are putting words into the mouths of people who don't agree with this move by GW.--
What is this "move" by GW that everyone keeps talking about...there is no "move" there is simply a company raising prices to remain profitable, and profitability is the only reason the company exists...PERIOD. Why whine about it?
Play the game, enjoy the game, deal with the changes.
And for the record, the sky is NOT falling...just as it did not fall with news that the space marines got better or any other time that the masses have squealed at the first hint of change.
One more thing:
Several people have said that GW's prices are already higher than most other games...have these people ever tried building armies for FOW, Warmachine, Confrontation, or AT-43? The total dollar investment is roughly the same for all of these games, but GW offers better support and superior product....again, why whine?
After nearly 12 years of handing over my paychecks to GW, i can tell you from experience the prices will go up again in the future. But on the bright side of things the quality of the mini's now are 100% better than the older ones! All of the artist's designing and making the mini's need to be paid for the talents. Although I HATE paying some of the crazy prices they charge, I usually feel beter after seeing the cool minatures up close. Now to change the subject, does anyone know how soon you recieve advance release orders before they hit the stores?
For all you fanboys that attempt to justify the price hike, why don't we just take a look at the financial report? Keep in mind this is public info guys- they didn't even try to hide it....
Games Workshop Group has reported revenues of GBP110.3 million for the year ended June 1, 2008, compared to GBP109.5 million for the prior year.
For the year ended June 1, 2008, gross profit was $76.61 million, compared to $77.58 million in the same period of 2007. Operating profit was GBP2.55 million, compared to an operating loss of GBP1.78 million in the same period of 2007. Pre-tax profit for the year ended June 1, 2008 was GBP1.1 million, compared to a pre-tax loss of GBP2.6 million in the prior year.
To break this down, GW still exceeded the 2007 fiscal year's profits during this time of inflation. So, in layman's terms, they are already profiting. So the hike is because they are greedy bastards.
I agree with Nurglespuss and Hatchett about getting on to Ebay and finding deals online. Sorry that my local shop has to suffer, but I'm not paying retail any more- and I am quite sure that I am not alone. Furthermore, GW is going to have to get ready to deal with more loss issues. Price hikes mean more kids stealing from stores or finding other creative ways to rip off the company. Not to mention all the folks that will give up playing or simply won't start due to the cost.
All in all, I'd be surprised if they profit all that much after this price hike. Its a bad move, its done out of greed, and it pisses people off. Price hikes FTL.
@ steve
"They have taken distributor's lists of game stores and attempted to contact those stores with the express purpose of cutting out games distributors."
if you actually talk to anyone with games workshop, from the guy wearing red in the store to the head of retail operations, they will all tell you that they have no problem with other miniature companies. this is because they believe that the more people who get involved with our hobby, the better. this may not have been true in the past, but under the current leadership, it's true.
"They were successfully sued in the United States for unfair business practices."
When?
If you believe the GW products aren't value for monedy anymore, then stop buying and please, stop moaning about that. You aren't going to die without GW products.
If I believe something is overpriced, don't buy it! Just look for something better and that's it.
I have many armies, but as an example I never bought any GW minotaurs... I just don't like them, so I search and find a very good ones on other company.
Instead of creying like a baby, stop buying, it's the most clear sign for a company and the only way we have to send a message they are going to take in account.
well at least the plastics are quite malible and easily customizable. if they keep their word on that it will be ok.
as for the paints i'm slowly converting to other model paints. the new paintpots i have are like rock after a couple of months yet the old hex bottles i bought in the '90s are still good paints.
as for their pricing.... if they can manage to keep the prices compairable from country to country it would be great. (prime example is the smace marine company that was 450 US and 600 Can, when our currency was compairible by a couple of cents)
anyhoo with the rise of prices going up everywhere in all hobbies i expect e-bay will get a bit more action and sales of simple green will rise accordingly.
Anonymous // August 25, 2008 1:10 PM
@ steve
"They have taken distributor's lists of game stores and attempted to contact those stores with the express purpose of cutting out games distributors."
if you actually talk to anyone with games workshop, from the guy wearing red in the store to the head of retail operations, they will all tell you that they have no problem with other miniature companies. this is because they believe that the more people who get involved with our hobby, the better. this may not have been true in the past, but under the current leadership, it's true.
"They were successfully sued in the United States for unfair business practices."
When?
First, Game Distributors aren't miniatures companies. Game Distributors are companies that distribute products to game stores. In 1994 or 95 Games Workshop requested all their US distributors provide them with names and addresses for all stores in the US that purchased GW product through those distributors. The distributors were assured by GW that the information given would be only for special offers and support. The distributors gave this information to GW who promptly used it to initiate a direct to the store sales, cutting out the distributors. They were sued, successfully, by several distributors in the US for this reason. The Armory and Chessex were the main plaintiffs in that court action, I believe. I was working for a hobby store at the time, which is why I know about it.
At least they aren't being sued as bad as microsoft for vista problems. More of you should think economically though, if they are keeping plastic prices the same by hiking up paint and metal more than if all you buy is plastic then they will have to hike those up a ridiculous amount to consolidate their losses. They also may then end up not producing many metal models and have to lay people off. The end result is only having plastics that are 40% more expensive and not being able to come out with as many new models and ideas. When you try to save money for the ability to stay in the hobby think about the hobby disappearing in the future due to all these ave a dollar now so I can spend ten more later.
Also remember that with all these airlines going nowhere that shipping to you is getting more costly while the US is still more easy to send stuff via ship.
And don't think I am taking this lightly as I am 14( turning 15 sep5) and have no alowence or income other than a few bucks on my birthday. My parents aren't doing a whole lot better so I am in this on my own. My means of getting money stems from being an ork player, I make nice minies from trash or whatnot and sell em on ebay.
All in all I am just saying you should think on a global and futuristic level, no narrow sided money savings.
To those that think there'll be 15% pay raises at GW, there won't be. My pay hasn't gone up a total of 15% in the last four years. The extra money will be going to pay for raw materials and shipping, and - surprisingly enough - a metal model costs more to ship than a plastic model.
To those that are in tough economic situations, my suggestion is to dial back on the amount you buy. While we'll still live in a capitalist system, sometimes it can be better to "fight" against the constant media pressure to consume for instant gratification. You might not be able to buy an entire new army in 6 months. It might take 12 to 24 months, but you can still have the enjoyment that comes with the hobby. Although, as a staffer, I do get a tidy discount on GW product, recent changes in my personal situation have meant that I've had to do just the same thing.
We'd all love to have everything for free and have all the time in the world to enjoy it, but it isn't and we don't. Is it a shame prices had to go up? Yes.
Anonymous GW Staffer
@Steven
"In 1994 or 95 Games Workshop requested all their US distributors provide them with names and addresses for all stores in the US that purchased GW product through those distributors..."
irrelevant. if you honestly believe that games workshop is an evil empire because of a decision and subsequent lawsuit they lost more than a dozen years ago under different management, why didn't you stop playing their games then? integrity is a dish best served cold?
For me this does not bode well. I collect SoB and this price rise directly hits the armies that are suffering most in GW's collection. It makes me wonder if this is the death knell for the inquisition.
I'm also a more than a little confused as to why they've made this decision for metals only. The plastic kits use oil based products and I have to say that GW could have gone a long way to control to price increase on the metal kits by raising the price of plastic kits. It stands to reason, raise prices across the board to even out the increase and let all GW customers shoulder some of the responsibility.
My final comment would have to be that as and when we see an eventual fall in the price of fuel and metal will we see a fall in GW's prices? I think not.
This is not a good business plan and it is not going to be a good move for either the customer or the share holder.
No one like a price hike in anything period. But my Step-Mother works as a Senoir Buyer For Delphi and deals alot with purchasing shiploads of metal! I discussed the rising cost of metal with her steel went down some, tin, lead, rose considerabley last year and copper went through the ceiling! I told her about metal minis going up 10-25% she was inmpressed it was going up only that much and when I told her they had not raised prices for a year she was shocked saying most metal had rose more than that in 6months.
Now I am not happy about price rise either. I also am on a tight budget but its not the end of the world, yes I will change what I am buying but I will just build armies slower. Also I always ask people when looking at company profits to also look at and consider the percentages, if you think about it if you made 100 billion in one year and only made 101 billion the next, you only have a profit of 1% and your not doing very well. Just a thought
Hmmm,
It would be prudent to point out that none of you actually need to buy any of this stuff, and that your gripes are obvious clues to what you will actually do as the result of the price hike. Had you, in reality, made up your mind about no longer staying with the hobby, you would have not bothered to leave even so much as a comment. It's that you know something you plan to continue to buy at a higher price for no more produce is what has you angered.
To those who have posted supporting arguments; good for you. You have not submitted yourself to the ease of ignorance and finger pointing, and traveled down the hard road of understanding. There are several myths that drive the thought process of some of the posters here. I really don't need to point them out, as you have already caught most of them. Just remember that the attempt to educate those who choose to follow the path of ignorance is a tree that bares no fruit.
GW makes bad business decisions. It results in the loss of profit. Lots of company's have made similar mistakes. Some of them are no longer in business. Look at the mortgage firms that have all faltered as the result of giving out far too large of loans to people that had no business receiving them. If it is meant for GW to go down as the result of said decissions, then it will happen. And then we will see how happy you are on that day. My guess is that no one will be surprised by it happening, but many will be surprised by how sad it makes them feel when they realize that its different when you lose something against your will as opposed to just leaving it behind.
A price hike seems unfair, and at the moment, we all want to blame it on GW's lack of good business sense, but really, it is not just a simple matter. For a company such as theirs (an entertainment based business with little profit margin) to still be around when others are folding in markets that are traditionally far stronger, tells me that they must not be all bad at business, and that their customers are much more loyal than they hint at in forums such as this. For each naysayer there must be a hundred supporters, and that gives me solace.
I hope them the best, as I have loved this hobby since I found it in a local store 13 years ago. If I leave the game, it will likely be due to certain things in the new 5ed rules that I see as "steps backwards", not a price increase that so few will even notice the effect of, and can just as easily leave it as take it.
Oh and GW, learn this credo as well as the one you have passed to us...
"The first rule in business is cut cost, increase profit." There are many great businesses that practice this at ALL levels of the company, and that is why they survive hard times. At my workplace, we re-use components from scrap parts, we pick up still useful components from the ground while we sweep, we shut off lights and fans when we go to break, we increased our efficiency to make more product in less time to cut out OT, we dissolved our cleaning crew and now take care of such things on our own, we found a company to take our recyclable scrap for free to reduce our waste cost. These are just a small amount of things our company has done to follow that credo, and even though several of us don't like it, I for one know that it it necessary for our company to make it through an "interesting time".
And lastly to those that collect mostly metal armies, God help you!
Hope my two cents haven't turned into a dollar here, because I'm afraid I can't make change.
-MM
Its a shame to hear some of the same old arguements and complaints- all of which seem shrowded in ignorance and a knee jerk reaction...
It isn't GW trying to be evil- its GW trying to keep their head up
What profit margin do you think there is for each model?
If you just look at the cost to make it- i suppose it is a tiny amount
But you have to pay for the design studio, the factory workers, the raw materials, the shipping costs for the materials to arrive and the finished product to leave, the guys who work in mail order, the guys who work in the stores- the stores themselves- the upkeep on said stores (heck how many of their commetitors have such a large chain of stores to support?) and insurance and everything on top of that
and hell just to finish it off you gotta throw a whole big pile of tax on there too
The profit margin....
having worked there in the past- it was about 1.4 PENCE per pound profit on average for any product
Yes GW can seem expensive at times- but when you take into account the huge infrastucture that the products are supporting- its incredible they've stayed going- and shows that some people are working hard to keep it going that way.
So next time you think about saying how horrible it is- remember that GW are doing their best to keep the hobby alive
Ok, the worst-case scenario is that GW goes out of business and nobody wants that. I have been buying their stuff since the eighties, so obviously they have been doing somethings right. My concern is that there is a law of diminishing returns for price hikes. Yes you can raise prices but you will also reduce your market share in doing so. I am not trying to be threatening in making this observation, I am just stating a fact. It is economics 101. Consider taxes. A state can try to increase revenue by hiking taxes, but eventually if rates rise high enough, people will stop bother to work hard trying to get ahead. Productivity will drop, less taxes will be paid and the state will actually lose revenue.
I hope GW understands that the same thing can happen here. Rather than balancing out the rising cost of petrol/gas/pewter/whatever they may just end up cutting their market share. In my opinion a safer move would be to try and recruit new members. The Warhammer-on-Line game has the potential to introduce literally millions of new people to the Warhammer world. How can you capitalize on that if every potential new player gets sticker-shock when they think of trying the miniatures game?
One final point of praise for GW. Clearly the general switch to plastics was a good idea. I can remember metal-head purists complaining about it at one time. Turned out to be good call.
Ok, the worst-case scenario is that GW goes out of business and nobody wants that. I have been buying their stuff since the eighties, so obviously they have been doing somethings right. My concern is that there is a law of diminishing returns for price hikes. Yes you can raise prices, but you will also reduce your market share in doing so. I am not trying to be threatening in making this observation, I am just stating a fact. It is economics 101. Consider taxes. A state can try to increase revenue by hiking taxes, but eventually if rates rise high enough, people will stop bother to work hard trying to get ahead. Productivity will drop, less taxes will be paid and the state will actually lose revenue.
I hope GW understands that the same thing can happen here. Rather than balancing out the rising cost of petrol/gas/pewter/whatever they may just end up cutting their market share. In my opinion a safer move would be to try and recruit new members. The Warhammer-on-Line game has the potential to introduce literally millions of new people to the Warhammer world. How can you capitalize on that if every potential new player gets sticker-shock when they think of trying the miniatures game?
One final point of praise for GW. Clearly the general switch to plastics was a good idea. I can remember metal-head purists complaining about it at one time. Turned out to be good call.
Sorry, GW isnt loosing money by a long shot.
"Games Workshop Group has reported revenues of GBP110.3 million for the year ended June 1, 2008, compared to GBP109.5 million for the prior year. Tom Kirby, chairman of Games Workshop, said: "We have had a better year. Not as good as we would like, not as good as it will be, but better nevertheless."
Guessing that Tom and his shareholders will have a great year with the price hike. The stock has risen over 200 since last week.
usual thing...
this year it's the pewter pieces - meaning mainly the blisters / lower price categories.
Next year or so it's the boxes, (again).
Only thing is that this time they were really creative in finding excuses.
I'm glad I have almost everything I need - and the baneblade will not go up so soon ;)
I love how some people see it as needing excuses to raise prices
Is there anything that hasn't risen in price the past year?
two years?
ten years?
Some people seem to expect this hobby to remain the same price always- regardless of whats going on else where in the world
The price hike is not a good idea. I understand that the metal market is tight, but in reality prior to the olympics china consumption although high has dipped. I know that other metal lines are retarded expensive. When prices get too high people will be driven underground so to speak. They will buy used, or alternatives. They will seek cheaper substitutes. This is great news for paint competitors who specalize in paints. GW just bumped prices and with their new line of things coming out, this is just real bad. People who can not afford metal and with no substitutes they will just do without. No matter how pretty they put it, this is bad for them. Someone needs to let go of the dog by the hips before it bits them.
First off, i'm 14 nearly 15, so I don't have to support a family, but I also rely on pocket money. Yes everything is going up in price, even I can tell that, but its my hobby and so I will do it, until Tactical squads are £30 each. As a side note, althoguh GW is a business, a staffer told me that the Boss's office has more models than paperwork.
As an Ex GW Veteran Sergeant, I can say from a Staff perspective that even though the Honcho's at GW HQ may FEEL its a requirement from time to time to have these price hikes - from my experiences there are only two reasons for them. Either the shareholders are getting 'itchy' and the GW Accountants are using this as a way to placate them, or they have lost (or losing) money somewhere and they are feeling the 'pinch'. No other Games Company in the World has had as many price increases in the last ten years as Games Workshop. Even though I left GW I still play 40k regularly, and still buy products as my Armies need them - and yes; I (like everyone) will 'feel the pinch' on this one. I also feel its a bad move on their part. They have already stripped down what the stores can keep in stock which has alienated many MANY customers, people who were steady buyers and now shop online because its cheaper and they get what they want faster. Its very VERY unfair on people who have to game on a budget - and those people (Kids and Students for example) who are the bread and butter customers who want big armies - and (I am pretty sure in this assumption) will no longer afford to do as such.
Well it figures GW would raise the prices yet again. I mean its not like I didnt shell out $50 for the new rule book now minis are going up. Sorry if I dont beleive they will keep plastics at the same price either. I beleive they will just wait for a few months before raising the prices on those as well. Yeah the economy is bad but they raised their prices before when it wasnt bad they are just looking for an excuse. Personally I am tired of GW price gouging.
The games are fun but I dont want to have to sell my first born for minatures. What they need is some real competition in their market to show them what feeling a pinch is really like!
"What they need is some real competition in their market to show them what feeling a pinch is really like!"
Also they need to stop selling the silly stuff. They sell a can of black paint for $15 when I can buy a can for 0.98 cents to $3.00. The flocking dust and gravel you can buy at a local hobby center for cheaper. The list can go on and on. If they would stop wasting the money on marketing these silly things and just stick to the minis then I wonder just how much money they would be bringing in instead of breaking just over even. Wouldn't need to raise the pricing no time soon. I don't understand why they can't see that.
I can't help but be sceptical about GW price hikes as they are already very high compared to other gaming company products.
But on the plus side... thank the dark lords for ebay as metal minis are easy to strip back to basics and start again.... I've saved a few bob that way.
darn! i was gonna start sisters of battle. but since its all metal, i guess i'll have to wait until they remake the sisters or something.
by the way, im just a 15 year old, don't have much money, so think of the youngsters, gw
I am a Metallurgist by trade and i saw this coming all the way. Raw material prices for metals have been rising over the last few years and if the rise is in the 15%-20% range then this coincides with the raw material costs. Since paint is essentially made from titanium oxide it is impacted as well and explains why the plastic range is holding. This really has nothing to do with the evil corporate game companies, it is supply and demand. So friends do not dispair due to misplaced feelings.
Gaming prices are dictated by a couple factors raw materials & tooling.
Raw materials are the largest component to metal figure prices. but do not overlook tooling costs which afect both metal and plastic models. To make a set of dies is a substantial investment. To recover this cost, prices for the figures are often increased at the outset. now in the case of plastics, that price will often hold fairly steady until a new new retool is needed and then costs rise again.
I am a Materials Engineer (Metallurgist) so I work in this industry and this really isn't an issue of greed on GW's part, it is just the price of doing business unfortunately.
Funny how the last two posts, only minutes apart are both anonymous - Sock Puppetry anyone?
Have a look at the Press Release on the privateer-press news Release page guys:
http://www.privateerpress.com/
June 20th Post, it shows in detail that pricing on metal increasing at a steep pace over the last year or so. I am just a gamer, a student and dabble in several systems, mainly GW, but privateer-press has a very friendly interaction between the company and the gamers who play their games (Warmachine, Hordes, et al), and at the very least they've addressed the issue much more indepth then GW by using the addition of a graph which one can follow up to the source as stated and comparisons of rising costs.
To GW, it is good they are adamant that plastic's won't be risen in cost as well, in the past they have just hit everything and that has really hurt people, especially those of us students with no income...
Ram Rock Ed First
If that was actually the case, why oh why do all the Daily Metal Prices Web Pages show incosistent prices of all metals - and that generally they have FALLEN in price recently! Tin (for example) has actually only risen IN LINE with most Countries cost of living rises, there was a jump a while back when it rose to an all time high of around $11 but it is now down to around $8.79. Most figure companies managed to ride out the massive increase in the market a while back. But now its considerably down (and liekly to get lower) they are all having a price Hike! Doesn't that smack more of greed than economics to you? GW have already reduced staff levels, closed stores, trimmed ranges (mainly the specialist games and the bits service), and performed other cost cutting measures. IF the actual reason for the price increase is still lack of profit, then they are in real trouble - or they should get rid of the gorram Share Holders and keep the prices competative. They make more profit if you buy direct from them, but why would you when you can generally buy it cheaper Online - and a lot of people offer freepost anyway. As most Games Workshops don't carry full ranges anymore, more and more people are Shopping with independant online retailers (I know I do) - the Games and Miniatures Games Workshop Produce are still incredibly popular, the GW Business and Pricing model is not. GW NEED to get rid of Shareholders, trim the business a little more, reduce prices in store, stop thinking ONLY of getting new Gamers in, offer the sort of gaming environment they used to have, and offer Freepost on all Internet Sales. If they did this customers would return to their Stores in droves.
hey guys, go to petition online if you want to sign this petition about avoiding the price increase. its probably no use but no hurt in trying. call me a retard if you think its stupid.
Futile maybe, but not stupid.
Its not stupid to want things to be fairer IMHO.
They want people to play bigger games, hence Apodalypse - and yet the prices keep climbing - I am pretty sure there aren't that many Millionaire 40k Enthusiasts!
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