Rumors brought to the community by Warseer's: VerifiablySane
More tidbits emerge. This time we hear about Command Squads and Librarian powers...
Command Squads
- Command Squads may only be taken for Captains (one per Captain).
- There is no sergeant option as the entire squad are veterans.
- The Company Champion is an optional upgrade character. The basic squad is 4 veterans and 1 Apothecary.
- Basic weapons are chainswords and either bolters or pistols.
- Any squadmember can replace his pistol or sword with: storm bolter, flamer, plasma gun, meltagun, combi-weapon, power sword, powerfist, lightning claw, or thunder hammer. Pistol may be replaced with a plasma pistol. Melta bombs and storm shields can be taken by anyone.
- The squad may be upgraded to ride bikes.
Librarians
Nine psychic powers:
- Avenger: essentially an AP3 heavy flamer
- Force Dome: 5+ invulnerable for the librarian and squad until the end of next player turn
- Gate of Infinity: librarian and squad Deep Strike back within 24" but with a minor risk...
- Machine Curse: shooting attack causing a Glancing Hit on 1 vehicle within 24"
- Might of the Ancients: Librarian gains strength 6 and rolls 2d6 armour penetration
- Null Zone: all enemy units within 24" re-roll successul invulnerable saves for rest of player turn
- Smite: 12" range, assault 4 St4 AP2
- Quickening: gains Fleet and Initiative 10
- Vortex of Doom: 12" St10 AP1 Heavy1 Blast; failed test results in the blast being centered on the librarian without scatter.
~Those powers seem really streamlined compared to the existing ones, and are a combination of many of the old abilities along with a few new ones. As for the command squads, we have heard from other sources that the stormshields listed in an earlier post as options for honor guard are only for command squads. Thoughts guys?
80 comments:
Oh wow, im gonna have to stay away from librarians. And I thought my weirdboy and my farseer had some pretty sweet powers...lol
Librarians have become a lot shorter ranged, which is good. Fury of the Ancients was way too much in terms of living artillery and didn't fit the role that the librarian was supposed to fill.
Force Dome looks like fun, and I can see myself wielding Vengeance whenever I expect to face chaos forces.
Mandatory apothecaries is different, but I can sort of see why. The command squad is supposed to be the force commander's Aid-du-camp. It should have several functionaries with different roles, intel, logistics, etc... Most of those would represented well by normal marine vets, perhaps with different weapons if you want to get in to it. A medic only makes sense.
The command squads will get hella pointy right quick though...
Bike Librarian with Vortex FTW. I like how Terminator armor and bikes essentially take it from a Heavy 1 to an Assault 1, AP1 weapon.
I assume that, although not mentioned, one member of the command squad can still be upgraded to a standard bearer?
Although it was predictible (COdex BA/DA) it still shocks me to have only 5 man Veteran based Command Squads. Thats a lot of points for very few models...
Hmmm... I might need to order some more flamers... I like the idead of 4/5 flamers rolling out of a drop pod/rhino. It doesn't really matter who you are (Infantry wise), that's not a happy place to be in.
Although it was predictible (COdex BA/DA) it still shocks me to have only 5 man Veteran based Command Squads. Thats a lot of points for very few models...
I think it is better than requiring a 10 man squad for small games, where it is really overkill. I wonder if they can be split into combat squads?
woo...
They get both the DA powers but better -_-
*Sigh*
Avenger is really the only psychic power listed that I like. Sad. I'm going to miss Fury of the Ancients and Wrath of the Emperor. Looks like Librarians are definitely getting a range restriction with everything.
I like all the powers except Null Zone. It doesn't sound like it has a story effect. Like, if you were going to write a story in which a Librarian uses Null Zone, how would you describe it?
Perhaps the entry in the codex will sound better...
Terminator armor and bikes essentially take it from a Heavy 1 to an Assault 1, AP1 weapon.
-----------------------------------
That's a good spot, and what I would think is a big oversight by the Devs.
Without seeing the fluff, I assume the power is Heavy because the Librarian needs to put full concentration on it and can't be moving, but the RULES of bikes and TA will override it even though I believe that is not the intention.
Wow, null zone basically renders daemons unplayable. Awesome.
Whine Whine Whine. what's new? they obviously are not going to make an entire army unplayable so spare me. And oh man, two space marine chapters have similar psychic powers. I don't believe it. That's just impossible. They will obviously be balanced so just wait for the codex to come out. librarians have already been made a bit weaker by limiting them to 2 wounds and lowering their BS to 4.
Fear of Darkness is gone =/
But it was overpowered...
You are right, I should be happy to have expensive models with no armor save that have to spend one turn in rapid firing range to have any effect.
What was I thinking? Although, it would be cool if they listed Grey Knights as a chapter in there - looking at these abilities, you could actually make a pretty solid daemonhunting specific force out of a number of the units in the codex (that we have seen via rumors).
@ Mark
Wait, they reduced the librarian's wounds to 2 and BS to 4? Are you serious?! Now I'm peeved. Librarians got so nerfed it's not even funny.
The main problem with Librarians is the nerf on the Force Weapon. Nearly every Instant Kill worth model has nowaday Eternal Warrior o_O
GW should stop spamming the more powerful universal Special Rules (Eternal Warrior, Feel no Pain, Fearless).
@ Patrick
Play 3 princes, w/ pavane of slaanesh and breath of chaos. Drop close, rearrange enemy into flamer template, and toast em. Daemons are far from unplayable. :)
yay, no more drop pod fear of darkness spam...w00t. 9 powers is alot to choose from, dang.
yes librarians only have 2 wounds and BS 4. bolter and chainsword has a good summary of the rumored changes. here's a link: http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.php?showtopic=142206
Freakin awesome command squads on bikes crazy i just need to switch my master to a captain which shouldn't be to hard.
Librarians are fierce, way better than Eldar. Seems odd considering the Farseers are supposed to be "the business" when it comes to psychic prowess.
Command squads should be allowed jump packs. Bikes are cool, but jump packs would suit me better. Here hoping.
@ anonymous
Play 3 princes, w/ pavane of slaanesh and breath of chaos. Drop close, rearrange enemy into flamer template, and toast em. Daemons are far from unplayable. :)
Can't do that because of timing - all shooting is simultaneous from a unit. I know, I am using a bit of hyperbole - 3 flamers are only 105 points and I can lash with something else. It is just annoying to have a power that can't be stopped that can affect your entire army in such a negative way. Maybe if collar of khorne will end up negating the entire ability, that would be a good thing.
I will just have to count on being such a fringe case with daemons that people won't include that power often in tourneys.
I want to see the codex to see the point costs associated with the powers. Some of these have to be prohibitive. I am definately wondering if the upcoming IG list will add value to Imperial Sanctioned Psykers as well.
Force Dome seems like a complete waste of time in a game for 4+ is th dominant cover save....
Now what I am wondering is are their going to be terminator commands squads? And if so are they going to be available in only 4 man squads + IC so that they can still use the regular Landraider as TPT
Not with the plethora of ap3 template weapons now available.
T_T
where on earth did my veil go. although some of the new powers do sound pretty funky...but will they really get rif od veil, leaving chaos with that exact power in the form of warptime?
Force Dome: 5+ invulnerable for the librarian and squad until the end of next player turn
Oh good, because I was worried about Marines not getting enough Invul save,....
*sigh*
Wow. Those powers sound like fun, and a lot of them are pretty viable. I would guess the librarian will be limited to only a couple though, instead of as many as he can pay for. I think I'll see a lot of AP3 flamers though, between the avenger power, and the land raider cestus or whatever the new variant is called.
That makes Necrons cry inside.
Null Zone is ouchy for daemon players. whewwww.
Really? 'Streamlined'? That's the word that you guys are going to use for Vortex of Doom being changed into a blast Rail Gun? Or a power that completely demolishes the Daemon codex?
Glad we get such great insights from the great minds here at BoLS.
xbruthamanx-
How does free sound?
The only insight to be found on BoLS is the one fed to them by the PR department of Games Workshop.
They can't bite the hand that feeds them, otherwise they won't get to playtest all those new rules.
Null zone is exactly what librarians are supposed to be, and that's why everyone will use it.
Nobody uses wind of chaos, which is way better than ap3.
ps: hey everybody, command squads have FNP.
FNP FNP FNP FNP FNP FNP
Alright, despite what everyone else is saying, I have to tell you right now that the Master of the Forge at least sounds like an Iron Hands style commander, plus the Venerable Dreadnought being available at a higher stat level makes me feel the urge to actually start an Iron Hands army.
Now if they'd go back to producing those damned miniatures...
Awesome news on the command squad! It's starting to look like my plans for all vets having storm shields will be a possibility.
Smite=Awsomeness
can you get comand squads for masters too? If you cant thats messed up.
I'm getting pretty excited about dusting off the old Marines this fall!
Smite is just a stupid gun. Don't be silly.
Masters get artificer riduculous squads.
half of those powers should've been for eldar.
so command squads cant be as tactical as DA & BA codex marines (no bolter and bolt pistol?)
Just what Space Marines need, another chance to have a S10 AP1 hit. That makes what, three ways to do that now?
Those Tau and their pathetic technology can't stand up to the might of the Imperium, I guess.
I assume that's an error. The option should be bolt pistol and choice of bolter OR chainsword. otherwise, looking at the optional upgrades, you can have a bolter AND plasma gun on the same Rambo-esque marine.
Nothing to see here. JUst the usual "the sky is falling" knee-jerk reactions to rumors.
12" Heavy1 is not awesome.
if librarians have two attacks, their powers are going to be about the only reason to buy them, and a 12" heavy is not great, especially considering scatter. He may not even have to miscast to ruin himself or his squad.
Take Null Zone.
Yeah!!! A Grey Knight Libby!!! Here's my next GK list:
So, base army list is SM. A Libby as HQ (joins a GKT squad-represents a GK Librarian!?), 2 scout squads (representing "stormtroopers", but with scout stats/wargear-you lose 1 BS point, but so much more options!). Add a GM(psycannon)+retinue (4 GKT-1 psycannon), BC+retinue (2 psycannons) (elite slot), 2 PAGK (8 men incl incinerator or Psycannon), 1 FAGK (8 men incl incinerator or Psycannon). That should add to about 1700-1800 pts (depending on scouts values, Libby value, if you chose Psycannons or incineratiors, etc). If any points left, add a LR Redeemer, and you have quite a nice force!
***edit: actually, I'd cut the psycannons. The re-roll invulnerable saves makes them less usefull! Maybe save some precious point by cutting them on all termies (so save 110pts) and invest in larger GK squads? But cutting the ones in the PA/FA slots, you gain an extra 75 pts. That's a big total of 185 pts, maxing your PA/FA squads to 10 men.***
Phil
These all look fun and not game breaking / earth shattering apart from what some on here would say.
Its a shame some people have to piss and moan every time another race gets a power that might even be slightly useful. The sky is falling, the Sky is falling, quick put my army on ebay!
@ anyone complaining about the crew at BoLS take a long walk off a short bridge. The guys at BoLs have done more for the fan community than anyone else out there.
I wish the VORTEX was the same rules as Apocalypse but died after the turn.
I hope MIGHT of the ANCIENTS can be combined with a FORCE WEAPON.
Rules loo acceptable, hope pts cost are well set?
Will vehicles be afforded cover saves against MACHINE CURSE? The Eldar FAQ suggests that folks can take cover saves against Mind War - to represent them diving behind cover, as it says -- which suggests to me that the 50% or more rule would still give the vehicle a cover save.
Does it seem to anyone else that the Space Marines are getting too many goodies?
think about this...
if SM are getting so much goodies then what will all the other races that are up for a redo will get???
just think about this... elitist armies get the high-end gear they need to be elitist... horde armies get options that make them nigh-unbreakable when truly played as a horde... IG with so many infantry and tanks get what they need... so on and on...
and for any1 who is calling the BoLS guys names... take a hike man... these guys have been doing awesome stuff... if you think they are that shallow then why are you on this site in the first place??
you can't have it both ways...
Yup, yup, yup. The sky is still there, but my Farseers are looking pretty mediocre now. If marine players are complaining that their ranges are too short try using your two primary powers as a 6" range sometime on a character that explodes if someone pokes him with a rusty butter knife.
If Librarians get to use more than one power without paying for an upgrade (seperate from the second power) then I will be really miffed.
Farseers look FAR FROM "mediocre" ... with Psychic Hoods restricted to 24", I assume Farseers camped in the deployment zone casting Guide or Fortune will become even more pain in the ass ...
A good # of these powers are only useful against one or two army types. Fun against one foe, useless against the next. I doubt we'll see the anti-invulnerable saves thingie (fer instance) being used much in a tourney, because its utility is limited against most armies.
The sky hasn't fallen yet, people.
Some of these powers are ok, and some are quite retardedly powerful, like the S10 AP1 template. Yeah, sure, 12" range and it's a blast weapon so it scatters, but heck S10 AP1 ?!
As said above, get him a bike and whoo, here you go, a turbo-boosting S10 AP1 Assault 1 weapon!
For the costs - I think it has been hinted at above, brace yourself guys: apparently they're going to be... free! Included in the base cost, at least. You just pick two.
And what happens when you send your librarian off on his own and he manages to fail the roll? He disappears off to never be seen again or is shot to heck. You'd have to be a lot more subtle than that...
And as for "counts as" change your army or use what is on your own list... or wait for a FAQ list to come out with some ammendments. What is the point of chopping and changing existing army lists?
Its at moments like these I wish Black Templars didn't hate witchs.
My storm seer (White Scars Librarian on bike) may have some job with this new edition :)
Look at all this variety in Marines. All these different options, having squads full of unique models with different weapons, new types of squads, units, vehicles.
Hell, even their Command Squads can get bikes.
I remember an army that had variety once. They were called Chaos Space Marines.
Now they Generic Daemons.
BYE
Farseers aren't screwed. Remember that Runes of Warding have unlimited range, while the Librarian's new psychic hood has a 24" range. Farseers can still cast with impunity outside of that range, whereas Librarians will be affected all over the table. Let them cast Vortex on 3d6, chances are decent that he'll fail and have to deal with the consequences!
More Librarian powers = more chances for Perils.
to the anyonmous guy that signs 'BYE' on his posts, no one cares. about anything you say. you whine and say BYE. next time u could just type BYE first... and actually leave.
As much as I have been bemoaning most of the news regarding the new Marine list, I think the new character balance is just right.
Before, Captains played second-fiddle to Chaplains and Librarians in players lists. Now, Captains have a clear role of being the 'tip of the spear', whereas Chaplains and Librarians provide a boost to the units around them.
This is where I see Marines and Chaos diverging, gameplay wise. Ideally, Marines should promote combined-arms tactics and overall strategy. Chaos, on the other hand, would be powerful as individual units but no real mutual support or strategy.
It's ok to be critical guys. Nobody gets a free pass in this world, not even BoLS.
think about this...
if SM are getting so much goodies then what will all the other races that are up for a redo will get???
Yeah, because GW is sooo prompt with updating the codexes for 'other races' to compensate for Marines.
This is standard Marine player logic - "no worries, if the Marines are getting this stuff now just think what later codexes will get,..."
Until then, Marines play an entirely different game. Have fun playing amongst yourselves. My suggestion: build your tourney lists under the assumption you'll be playing another Marine player.
I am concerned if they are free with the librarian that they will also be able to pick them at the start of the game. I hope not, but it is possible like the old black templars vow.
I like the imaginability of the first few librarian powers. with the current codex the powers are all these grand proclamations, and the powers do not have much to do with the actual librarian. here i can actually imagine a librarian summoning a spout of psychic flame, or kneeling down and projecting a force field over him and his sw=quad. makes it a little more realistic, in a way.
Quote = I like all the powers except Null Zone. It doesn't sound like it has a story effect. Like, if you were going to write a story in which a Librarian uses Null Zone, how would you describe it?
Its a wargame you nobber, not a book.
Quote = Does it seem to anyone else that the Space Marines are getting too many goodies?
WTF are you talking about?
Goodies? They're all close range, meaning you'll get 1 cast before you're swamped by 50+ orks. Good luck.
GW = Shit
Quote = Look at all this variety in Marines. All these different options, having squads full of unique models with different weapons, new types of squads, units, vehicles.
Hell, even their Command Squads can get bikes.
I remember an army that had variety once. They were called Chaos Space Marines.
Now they Generic Daemons.
BYE
_________
No worries bud. I'll do my best not to miss you. Weener!!
"failed test results in the blast being centered on the librarian without scatter."
I don't know why, but to me this seems to stick out more than it does to the people whining about it. A Farseer or Tyrant making psychic tests go wonky means this guy will, most likely, toast himself and his entire squad. Right now I am assuming it won't blow him up if negated by a Psychic Hood, but if that will do it too, this type of librarian may just be a ticking time bomb waiting to nuke his own side.
That just means no one will take that power because of the risk. Okay, not no one, but very few people - much like the khorne daemon weapon.
Oh and the BYE guy is probably HBMC from dakka. Don't mention kill points or the "new" chaos codex and he is a decent enough guy.
My comment on each of the powers:
1. Avenger -- essentiall an AP3 flamer.
Upside -- It is an interesting option that would work against most armies and when combined with a bike or jump pack makes it more effective.
Downside -- range of the template and the possible miscast, especially against eldar. Protecting the librarian so he can cast it is another liability.
I don't think we will see this much except against a player who is creating a theme for their army.
2. Force dome --
upside -- give the lib. and squad a +5 save.
downside -- Questions come to mind. Who would the librarian give this to? It only works on one squad and cover saves are better and not negated easily.
I don't think we will see this but on the rare occasion when the player has a static gun line or something.
3. Gate of infinity -- so we can jump back 24" with a risk.
upside -- might get you out of harms way or postion you to suprise you opponent.
downside -- Questions again... Can we jump out of CC. Does "back" mean towards our table edge or does it mean "reposition"? What is the risk? Deepstrike mishap comes to mind or worse.
Depending on how this works it might be fun to use and capture objectives or reposition. I think that we will see this one used defensively.
4. Machine curse --
upside-- its always nice to reduce the threat of a vehicle even if its just to keep it from shooting.
downside -- range and line of site. Possibility of being negated by cover saves. I cannont believe it would just go "off" and work in this version of the game without some chance to negate it.
I was thinking that it might work well with a mechanized force but don't expect to see this one much.
5. Might of the Ancients -- str 6 and 2d6 amour pen
upside -- 6 plus 2d6 to armour pen isn't shabby.
downside -- aren't melta bombs str 8 plus 2d6 for 5pts?
If the power is free we will see this one and it might really be effective if you could infiltrate or flank the enemey and gain a good charge on a troublesome vehicle.
6. Null zone -- enemies within 24" reroll successful invulnerable saves for the rest of the turn.
upside -- good against deemons and others
downside -- to specific. You would need to know who your opponent is to use this power to it greatest effect.
I don't think we will see this one unless it's known "who" would be fighting or unless the lib. can choose his powers prior to the game starting.
7. smite -- 12" rng, str 4, ap2, assault 4
upside -- multiple shots and great ap value.
down side -- We are gong to see this all the time if... and a big if... you can protect the librarian, otherwise the range limits its effectiveness.
I thought that it might be great to tool up a librarian and attach him to an assult squad or a sternguard squad to keep him protected and get him into range to fire this off. I just don't know if I have enough savviness to pull it off.
8. Quickening -- gain fleet and int 10
upside -- it's great to upgrade a character.
downside -- it's only going to get you somewhere on the table in specific situations.
I don't think there are enough "general" situations where this power is going to be usefull.
9. Vortex of Doom -- 12" rng, str 10, ap 1, heavy 1 blast.
upside -- it's a template weapon and everything it touches is going to be hit.
downside -- miscasting is very alarming.
I don't think this is that big of deal... it's just a Vindicator shot with half... dare I say half... the range. We are gong to see this with players who want to play an infantry themed army and still have some kind of "heavy" anti-armour/ infantry.
Overall... I think that most of the powers are... ok... I think that most are only good in specific situations making the choice for tournements limited.
However... several librarians in a game of Apocalypse with smite might ruin someones day if you have the wisodom of the ancients formation wich gives you... flank march.
just my thoughts... don't kill me until I have put on my AP 3 resistant clothes.
later,
Tim Weston
I believe GW did a fine job of cementing the Eldar as the "most powerful psychers" int he galaxy.
From Tactica "Farseer" January 2007, BoLS
Anyone still believe this?
To those of you taking a stab at the 'bye' guy, fair enough, but insulting him as he leaves doesn't exactly make any of you look any better.
To be perfectly honest, I like the way GW has made an effort to make the Librarian and Commander different. Before, I didn't see a whole lot of SM commanders, they just didn't do anything special. Now, it looks like players will have to make some deciisons on their commander, which can only really be encouraged.
The powers don't seem that over the top IMO, except for the Gate of Infinity. I thought the ability to teleport around, especially out of combat, was meant to be a Necron-Only thing - you know, one of those things that makes an army UNIQUE.
GW, please stop giving marines EVERYTHING that makes other armies unique.
And finally, don't give the BoLS guys a hard time. I dislike GW severely at the moment, but these guys rock. They're the sort of people who keep this hobby alive when GW trips over itself again and again. Please consider that.
Gate of Infinity: librarian and squad Deep Strike back within 24" but with a minor risk...
This one sounds most interesting to me. Will read the codex entry with great interest.
Other stuff is unlikely to affect the battle much. Unlike the command squad... if you equip the whole squad with plasma you can just remove anything you shoot at. Awfully expensive though.
Also, the idea that they can teleport out of combat, while... interesting... isn't really implied I think. Can't picture a Librarian concentrating on teleporting while in close combat.
@ Ulthanesh:
Yes, I do. Farseer Runes of Warding have an unlimited range, whereas a Psychic Hood has a 24" range. Also, Farseer powers are still very nasty, Doom in particular. Farseers can still help the ENTIRE Eldar army with Fortune, Guide, and Doom - any unit in range, in fact - while the new Librarian powers seem only able to help the Librarian himself, or the unit he's in.
In the end, I think Farseers have far more flexibility, and are a far better force multiplier, than Librarians.
Fantastic news about the new powers.
I play guard and these look balanced to me, nothing stands out as being too powerful.
I am very happy to see Fear of Darkness being scrapped. IMHO the fluff read like a Chaos power and the effect was way overpowered.
Gotta say I'm happy with the look of the Codex as a whole, and so long as the IG Codex is done properly things, look good for IG players.
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