This compilation is the combined efforts of warseer's: VariableBob, VerifiablySane, PlasticRat and Bolter and Chainsword's: Ignatius.
~Here is the most recent master compilation of the upcoming Codex Space Marine, incorporating the latest information available from a variety of internet sources. Special thanks goes out to Warseer's: VariableBob for putting it together. Here it is in its unaltered state:
HQ
Chapter Master
- Ws6 Bs5 S4 T4 W3 I5 A4 Ld10 Sv3+
- May take a Relic blade and Storm Shield.
- May take Artificer Armour.
- Has around 20 Options
- May take Terminator armour, Jump Pack or a Bike
- Gives a one shot Orbital Strike which is S10 Ap1.
- Has a Bolter, may upgrade to Storm Bolter, Combi Plasma, Combi Melta, Combi Grenade Launcher
- May replace Bolt pistol and CCW for pair of Lightning Claws or a Relic Blade
Captain
- Ws6 Bs5 S4 T4 W3 I5 A3 Ld10 Sv 3+
- May take a Relic blade and Storm Shield.
- If he takes a bike, Bikes may be taken as Troops
- Much the same options as above, does not have the orbital strike.
Chaplain
- Ws5 Bs4 S4 T4 W2 I4 A2 Ld10 Sv3+
- Price is about the same.
- Comes with Crozius and Rosarius
- Still allows rerolls to hit.
- Makes unit with him Fearless
- Can replace his bolter with storm, combi-, powerfist, plasma pistol.
- When taking terminator armour he replaces “power armour, boltgun, frag and krak grenades for Terminator armour and” one shooting weapon.
Librarian
- Ws5 Bs4 S4 T4 W2 I4 A2 Ld10 Sv3+
- Has gotten cheaper.
- Comes with Force weapon and Psychic Hood
- May have 2 powers.
- May be upgraded to an Epistolary which allows the use of two powers a turn. Apparently this is expensive.
- Psychic hood now has a range of 24" (whether it means that the power is within 24", or the Psyker I dont know)
- 9 powers:
Avenger - essentially an AP3 heavy flamer,
Force Dome - 5+ invulnerable for Librarian and squad until end of next player turn,
Gate of Infinity - Librarian and squad Deep Strike back within 24", but with minor risk...,
Machine Curse - shooting attack causing Glancing Hit on 1 vehicle within 24",
Might of the Ancients - Librarian gains strength 6 and rolls 2d6 armour penetration.
Null Zone - all enemy units within 24" re-roll successul invulnerable saves for rest of player turn ,
Smite - 12" range, assault 4 St4 AP2,
Quickening - gains Fleet and Ini.10,
Vortex of Doom - 12" St10 AP1 Heavy1 Blast...failed test = blast centred on Librarian without scatter.
Master of the Forge
- Ws4 Bs5 S4 T4 W2 In4 A2 Ld10 Sv2+
- Comes with Servo Harness
- Has Conversion beamer which gets stronger and more powerful the further away he is firing, in three stages. Maxes out at S10 Ap1 Large blast at 72"
- Allows Dreadnaughts to be taken as Elites AND heavy support if he is there.
Honour Guard (?-10)
- Ws4 Bs4 S4 T4 W1 I4 A2 Ld10 Sv2+ 30+ points as standard.
- Can only be taken if a Chapter Master is present in the army.
- Artificer Armour and power weapon as standard.
- Can take Relic Blades which are a two handed power weapon that gives St6.
- Can take Aux. Grenade launchers.
- One may take a Chapter Standard which, if it still has the same rules as now, gives them Counter attack.
- They may take a Chapter Champion, Champion is WS 5.
- Chapter Champion must direct attacks against enemy Independant characters if he can.
- May NOT take Storm Shields.
Command Squad:
- May only be taken by captains.
- 4 vets and 1 apothecary, Company Champion is an optional upgrade for one model.
- Chainsword and either bolter or pistol as standard.
- They can have bikes.
- Any can replace pistol or sword with: Storm Bolter, Flamer, Plasma gun, Meltagun, Combi-whatever, power sword or fist, lightning claw, thunder hammer.
- Pistol can be replaced with Plasma Pistol.
- Melta bombs and Storm Shields can be taken by anyone.
- Apothecary gives the unit Feel no pain
- One may take a Company Standard which, if it still has the same rules as now, gives them Counter attack.
Kor’Sarro Khan, Captain of the White Scars 3rd Company
- Ws6 Bs5 S4 T4 W3 In5 At3 Ld10 Sv3+
- Gives models in his unit hit and run and Furious Charge.
- Moondrakkan is a bike he may take. It’s a bike which can use the Run ability and can also Fleet
- Moonfang- A Power sword. Any 6’s on the to wound roll become Instant Death.
- May exchange Chapter Tactics for Outflank.
Kayvaan Shrike
- Ws6 Bs5 S4 T4 W3 In5 At3 Ld10 Sv3+
- Jump pack, Iron Halo and master crafted rending lightning claws.
- May exchange Chapter Tactics for Fleet.
- He has Infiltrate and gives it to his unit.
Pedro Cantor
- Ws6 Bs5 S4 T4 W4 In5 At4 Ld10 Sv2+
- Storm Bolter (Assault 4 and AP 4) and Powerfist
- Sternguard in his army count as Scoring units
- May exchange Chapter Tactics for Stubborn.
- All friendly units within 12” receive +1 attack.
Marneus Calgar
- Ws6 Bs5 S4 T4 W4 In5 At4 Ld10 Sv2+
- Can be fielded in either power armour or terminator armour. Has an Iron Halo with either.
- 2 Powerfists and a Stormbolter (Assault 4 AP 2)
- He has a power weapon which he is allowed to use (only when in artificer Armour?)
- Eternal warrior.
- His Chapter Tactics allows his army to choose to pass or fail any Ld tests.
- May reroll any failed to wound rolls in both shooting and hand to hand.
- May take 3 squads of Honour Guard, if they are all 10 man. These do not take up FOC slots.
Chaplain Cassius
- Ws5 Bs4 S4 T6(!) W2 In5 At3 Ld10 Sv 3+
- Feel No pain
- New background.
Chief Librarian Tigurius
- Knows all(!) the psychic powers available to the marines.
- May use 3 powers per turn.
- Allows army to reroll any reserve rolls.
Captain Lysander
- Ws6 Bs5 S4 T4 W3 In4 At4 Ld10 Sv2+
- Thunder hammer is Master Crafted and gives Lysander S10, he also adds +1 to the damage against vehicles
- Storm Shield (3+ invulnerable save for him)
- Eternal Warrior (Again?!)
- Bolter Drill- The Squad he is with is allowed to reroll misses with Bolters, bolt pistols, storm bolters and heavy bolters.
- Allows one piece of terrain to be fortified, to give +1 to its normal cover save.
- May exchange Chapter Tactics for Stubborn.
Captain Sicarius
- Ws6 Bs5 S4 T4 W3 In4 At3 Ld10 Sv3+
- 1 tactical squad gets Counterattack, Infiltrate, Scout or Tank hunters for free.
- An army led by captain Sicarius may re-roll the dice when attempting to seize the initiative.
- Blister pack allows for bare head & helmet in hand or wearing helmet with plasma pistol in hand.
- His mantle gives him Feel no pain(?)
- Is able to kill a Wraithlord in one hit with his wargear(?)
Vulkan He'stan
- Ws6 Bs5 S4 T4 W3 In4 At3 Ld10 Sv2+
- Chapter tactics allows all meltas and flamers to become twin linked and all Thunder hammers to become Master Crafted.
- 3+ invulnerable (GAH!)
- Heavy Flamer (which rerolls to wound)
- S6 Power weapon, Master Crafted
Brother Chronus
- Upgrade for a Space Marine Vehicle
- Gives it Bs5 and allows it to ignore Crew Stunned and Crew Shaken results.
- If vehicle is destroyed he can scurry away and crew another one.
Scout Sergeant Telion
- Upgrade for Scout Squad
- Can give his BS of 6 to another scout in the unit.
- Armed with a long range 'stalker' pattern boltgun with the pinning and rending special rules.
Elites
Sternguard Veterans (5-10):
- Ws4 Bs4 S4 T4 W1 I4 A2 Ld9 Sv3+
- Come with Bolters and 4 Kinds of Specialised round
- Dragonfire bolts- Normal Bolter, Ignores cover
- Hellfire Rounds- wound on a 2+.
- Kraken bolts- 30” range, S4 Ap4 Rapid Fire
- Vengeance rounds- 18” range, S4 Ap3, Rapid Fire, Gets hot
- Can Upgrade bolters to Storm Bolters (lose the specialist rounds)
- Can take Combi weapons (keep the rounds).
- Can also take from a small list of special and Heavy Weapons (Flamers, Heavy flamers and such.)
- One of the Sternguard can take a Powerfist or Power weapon
- They may choose which round to use each turn.
Dreadnaught:
Just like now, also may take twin CCW's or twin autocannons.
Venerable Dreadnaught:
WS and BS 5, with most of the Dreadnaught's basic weapons options.
Ironclad Dreadnaught:
Basic Dreadnaught Stats with front and Side armour 13.
- Probably comes with a Heavy Flamer rather than a Storm Bolter
- Can take a Hunter Killer
- Has Move through Cover.
Terminators(5-10)
- Basic Terminators just like now.
- Cyclone Now Heavy 2
- 1 Heavy weapon, 2nd may be purchased if squad has 10 models.
Assault Terminators(5-10)
- As now.
Techmarine
- Comes with a 2+ save.
- Allows one piece of Cover in his deployment zone become +1 to its cover save.
- Still has servitors. May choose to leave them.
Legion of the Damned
- WS4 BS4 S4 T4 W1 I4 A2 Ld10 Sv 3+ invulnerable
- Their Sergeant has Ws5
- They always Deep Strike, but reroll scatter if they want.
Troops
Tactical Marines(5-10):
- Start at 4 marines and a sarge for 90 points, full squad is 165.
- Sergeant is included in cost, may take powerfist, storm bolter, combi-bolter.
- Variable squad sizes are possible.
- Special and Heavy weapons are unavailable unless there are 10 marines in the unit, but then they get free Flamer and a free Multimelta or Heavy Bolter or Missile Launcher. Meltagun- 5 points, Plasmagun 10, Lascannon- 10, Plasma cannon- 5
- Bolter, Polt Pistol, Frag and Krak grenades as standard. (NB: they do NOT have a CCW)
- Sarge can take Power weapon, Power Fist, Lightning Claw, Plasma Pistol, Storm Bolter, Combi Flamer, Combi Plasma, Combi Melta (and maybe combi grenade Launcher)
Scouts
- Ws3 Bs3 S4 T4 W1 In4 A1 Ld8 Sv4+
- Sergeant is WS4, BS4.
- Sergeant may take combi-weapon, plasma pistol, power weapon or powerfist.
- Shotguns probably S4
- May be an option for Teleport Homers.
- Their Heavy bolter can take hellfire Rounds
- Squads can be equipped with camo cloaks, granting the Stealth USR.
Bikes
- Requires a Captain on a bike.
- Requires 5+ bikes. For details of bikes see Fast Attack options.
Rhino:
- Probably will drop to 35 points ala Dark Angels and Blood Angels.
Razorback:
- Comes with heavy bolter included in cost.
- May upgrade to: twin-linked heavy flamer, twin-linked assault cannon, twin-linked lascannon, lascannon and twin-linked plasmagun.
Drop Pod:
- Drop pod assault means that Half of all Drop pods come in on the First turn (GW doesnt want Deep striking armies to come on turn 2 or later...understandable)
- Drop pods in the first wave can act as guiding beacons for pods in the Second wave.
- Costed at slightly more than 2 marines.
- Holds 12 marines or 6 terminators or 1 Dreadnought or 1 thunderfire cannon.
Fast Attack
Bikes (3-8+trike):
-May combat squad, requires 8 bikes plus an attack bike. Divides into 4B/4B+1AB.
Attack Bikes (1-3):
- Must pay for Multi-Melta.
Scout Bikes (3-10):
- Can upgrade bike with a grenade launcher
- Can booby trap areas of terrain with hazardous cluster mines.
- Sergeants can be equipped with locater beacons. These function as a teleport homer for any deep-striking unit (drop pods, jum packs etc.)
Assault Marines (5-10):
- Sergeant may take a Storm Shield or combat shield.
- Only sergeant may have melta-bombs.
- Special weapons are 1 for every 5 models
- Specials include flamers and plasma pistols.
- May remove jump packs and get a free rhino or drop pod in return.
Vanguard Veterans (5-10):
- Ws4 Bs4 S4 T4 W1 I4 A2 Ld9 Sv3+
- Sergeant may take a Relic blade and Storm Shield.
- Come with Bolt Pistol and Close Combat weapon, can all take from a bunch of upgrades including: Power weapons, Power fists, Lightning claw (yes, one)
- Probably have an option to take Bolters
- May also take Combat shields and storm shields.
- Jump packs are an upgrade which gives them the Heroic Intervention rule. May take a transport instead.
- Heroic Intervention allows them to assault the turn they Deep strike.
Land Speeders (1-3):
Pretty much as now.
- Typhoon missile launchers fire as Heavy 2 missile launchers.
Land Speeder Storm:
- Has a Jammer which disrupts deep striking close by.
- Scouts charging from it -2 from the enemy Ld.
- Carries 5 scouts (and scouts only) and counts as Open Topped
Heavy Support
Thunderfire Cannon
- Has techmarine crew.
- Can fire in 3 different ways (all heavy 4): St 6 AP5 blast, St 5 AP6 blast ignores cover, St 4 AP- blast causes difficult terrain test in next turn/dangerous terrain for vehicles(inc. skimmers)
- May be mounted in a Drop Pod.
- Techmarine attendant can bolster defences, providing a 1 point bonus to the cover save of a single ruin in the Space Marine deployment area.
Predator:
Pretty much how it is in Codex: Blood Angels (i.e. expensive)
Vindicator:
- Siege Shield allows it to auto-pass terrain tests.
Devastator:
- Sergeant has a Signum, allows one Marine to fire at BS 5.
Whirlwind:
- Has BA/DA style ammo. (Including incendiary?)
Land Raider
- Machine spirit allows an extra weapon than allowed to be shot at any available target.
- Multi Melta is now a pintle option for all variants.
- Can Carry 12 models
Land Raider Crusader
- Machine spirit as above
- Frag Launchers as normal (useful too, now.)
- can carry 16 Models
Land Raider Redeemer
- Machine Spirit as normal
- Redeemer cannon: Range- Template S6 Ap3 Heavy 1
- Transport Capacity: 12 models
Not unit specific:
Decision to split in to combat squads is made at the time each unit is deployed or when a unit disembarks from its Drop Pod.
Combat Tactics – allows any unit to automatically fail any Morale Check it takes (from shooting and CC).
Combat shields now give a 6+ invulnerable save.
Storm shields now give a 3+ invulnerable save.
Aux. Grenade launchers are short range, can fire in tandem with another weapon.
All sergeants are veterans now, so are just called sergeants.
~Initial comments are that this is a huge amount of detail and units for a single codex. I would consider this set as more reliable than previous information where there are any discrepancies. It would seem that GW is really intent on pulling out the stops with Space Marines. It is difficult to find any unit what doesn't have a lot of potential and when teh codex arrives in our hands and we can see final points costing, there are going to be myriad ways of building lists coming out of this codex. There are also numerous ICs who are just phenomenal. As usual, standard caveats apply to all of this info. Thoughts guys?
I think this is going to be a great codex. I know there are the narsayers and the complainers about their army getting nerfed, but I think there is a lot of potential here and will allow a great variety of SM forces on the tabletop.
We will of cource have to wait and see how everything stacks up in teh end though. Power gamers always have ways to ruin the fun.
Biggest question for me is to make my SM force a DA army using teh DA codex, or something else, using the new 5ed codex. Decisions, decisions...
Wow, cancel every other codex because no one will play anything but marines now.
I've seen much bullshit in my time but this just takes the cake
"Captain Sicarius...
- His mantle gives him Feel no pain(?)
- Is able to kill a Wraithlord in one hit with his wargear(?)"
wth?
At which point does this cross over from simply posting rumors to flat-out copyright violation? Why by the dex if it's all going to be posted here? Seems like GW would have something to say about it.
I'm just sayin...
Hear the lamentations of the Xenos!
Keep it to yourself buddy, no one can play a game with any of this stuff. Sheesh.
"At which point does this cross over from simply posting rumors to flat-out copyright violation? Why by the dex if it's all going to be posted here? Seems like GW would have something to say about it."
Actually it dosn't violate IP law as it is not a published document yet. Furthermore, these are listed as rumors and are not statements of fact nor are these pages taken from a GW licence.
Once it is published however then it will be a problem.
As for the codex my Chaos Marines feel left out of all these goodies :(
While a part of me thinks that this may be just standard Space Marine love from GW, I also think that this bodes well for future armies.
I think that GW has seen the light in terms of how they've treated gamers and is starting a turn around.
Like the Dems in 04, I think that there are innumerable ways GW could shoot themselves in the foot, but let's hope things will continue well.
Back to my topic, more love to future codexes. I can see the Space Wolf Codex being half the size of this one, but how about the Dark Eldar? 100+ pages?
At least the Legion of the Damned have rules. Those were the ghostly black/flaming Marines that just appeared out of nowhere, right? If so, their rules are really appropriate.
And do they ALL have 3+ invulnerable saves?!
"Honey, Why is the bank account empty?"
"New Codex, had to buy all this new stuff."
I'm surprised not to see more BS6+ guys since that is in the big book now. I figured at least one of the special ICs would have it.
Here's the thing that concerns me. Compared to other codexes this does seem a little over the top. All of the things though, are very flavorful for marines. I can't deny that.
It feels though like the beginning of 4th edition. Traits were neat. It was ideally going to be carried through with every codex. However, it wasn't. The result was that exactly 2 codexes got the system. It lead to some pretty abusive stuff, so they discontinued the practice.
I see the same thing happening here. THe marines are the first. They get a special uber rule for every single unit, including duplicated of just about every ability available to any other army plus some of their own.
If this trend continues it will be fine. If not, we will have an overpowered marine codex that will beat the stuffing out of most other armies. That makes for a bad game.
Dan
all this grousing is nonsense. You guys have to think about this with regard to marine army selection. You're never going to face an army with all this stuff - its too expensive.
Marines have always been able to build uber units - assault termis in LR's, god command squads, etc. But the fact of the matter is most marine armies are still primarily multiple units of tac marines backed by a few handpicked tricky-bits.
That's not gonna change. Sure it has lots of bells and whistles, but you're not gonna see a thunderfire cannon, new vets, a chapter master with honorguard and an LR redeemer all in the same list at 2000 pts. (and if you do that guy has no scoring units).
Yeah no scoring units. Of course you will not have any either ;)
if you.race =/= race.space_marines
and opponent.race == race.space_marines:
space_marines.rape(you)
you.losses +=1
print timeuntilupdate(self.race)
print "sigh"
As a veteran Ultramarine player, I'm starting to feel a bit dirty.
But in a good way....
WOW!!!
I just skimmed a little of that and it looks totally over-whelming!!
Silvester
If this codex is the way of things to come, it had to start somewhere. Whichever codex was the first to gain a lot of new goodies was going to be bitched at. It makes perfect sense that the marines, as the GW flagship army would be the first codex in an era of change. If you really think this codex is going to be different/more powerful than those that come after, then the game is doomed. But if I'm right this is just the first step in making all armies more interesting and giving them all a multitude of cool things to do.
And the people who say you'll never face all this stuff, or if you do your opponent will lose are right. My army right now is 4 tac squads, 1 scout squad (mounted), and only 4 non-troop units (vehicles.) something like 70% of my points go to troops. I don't see that changing just because we're getting a lot of dangerous, high-power, high-cost units.
And actually, I'd say this all started with orks.
WE ARE ALL DOOMED...DOOMED I SAY! THIS IS OUTRAGEOUS! WHAT A LOAD OF CRAP! WE SHOULD ALL JUST THROW OUR STUFF AWAY OR SELL IT...THAT'S IT,I'M DONE WITH GW...BLAH,BLAH,BLAH...DOOMED...
DESPAIR...MISERY...DOOMED...
All right, now that that BS is all over with...BRING IT ON IMPERIAL LAPDOGS...MY BLACK LEGION FORCES AWAIT...WOOHOO!!!
And in a moment, all semblance of game balance and even handedness in 40k cried out, and then was silent.
Why would *anyone*, even Chaos players, use any other codex? Given what they did to the DA,BA and Chaos codex's, this is very hard to swallow.
If this was a fan made list, everyone would call it horrendously imbalanced. I really don't see how this army list is balanced in any way for the points costs suggested here.
Anon 1:21PM :"I really don't see how this army list is balanced in any way for the points costs suggested here."
Uh, am I missing something? What points values? As far as I can tell the article just lists (potential)options...with the exception of mentioning that rhino's MAY drop to 35pts.
well the basis for a marine force looks set to jump from min maxed 6 man squads of plas/las, to 2 ten man squads with as much free stuff as they can grab. add into taht a chapter master as most players will for sheer cheese factor. throw in the BETTER assault marines for the old ones arent needed and the BETTER vets as the old ones arent needed. stick a few uber tanks in...this is likely the recipe i see to be repeated all over the place.
Dont get me wrong, the new dex seems to offer many options for players who wont just abuse the book. I can see how each fluffy player can tailor their force to match their background. especially with the generic chapter master. However my gripe is that alreayd many marine players just went out to win...and now the urge to do so will be greater than ever with more dirty tools to do it with.
Chaos got its balls cut off and SMs get this? Boo :(
I'm only complaining cause it'll take like another 5 years until they get back around to us.
Wow, and I mean wow...I don't have a real marine army, I have an Inquisitor army, Grey Knights, Sisters, and even some deathwatch. Also Tyranids and Necrons and after reading this I can't wait for their new codex! They are going to tough...my new super Canifex-Rex with his 6 scything talons and acid spray that uses the hellstorm template, or the Necron Supreme Mega-Lord with the monolith body. How can we forget Grey Knights with their new weapon, The Smite Halberd of Doom, +2 WS +4 S Vorpal instant death weapon that allows Eternal Warrior, FNP and Hit and Run. Sisters only get the Bitch Slappiness of Peril but eh, better than nothing I guess.
Shop smart, shop S-mart
Sardaukar Officer said...
Anon 1:21PM :"I really don't see how this army list is balanced in any way for the points costs suggested here."
"Uh, am I missing something? What points values? As far as I can tell the article just lists (potential)options...with the exception of mentioning that rhino's MAY drop to 35pts."
That's cause they are free...new SM rule is that u can use anything you like. Duh
Apparently BoLS updates should come with tissues.
"As for the codex my Chaos Marines feel left out of all these goodies :("
Seriously, that's what I've been saying about Chaos Space Marines, and yet people would argue against me. Chaos Marines are double the amount of points just to get the same special and heavy weapons in the Imperial Tactical troops. Even the most basic troops have combat tactics, while Chaos marines point-for-point only have 1 extra CC attack per marine. You have to slap on 10 points to reroll morales.
And now the Vindicator ignores terrain? All we have is a dozer blade which rerolls difficult terrain tests at 6." Our drop pods are still expensively double in price since Forgeworld introduced it.
Chaos's only saving graces are obliterators, defilers, and specialized cult marines. Even I wouldn't want to charge my daemon princes against S6 power weapons or 3++ termies.
Oh noez, we's all gonna die!
I wonder. All these people crying here are Eldar player, I bet. Oh gods, someone can beat Eldar and Chaos now! D: All Eldar and Chaos players must commint a ritual suicude now, how can they bare it!
Anon 1:41 PM : "That's cause they are free...new SM rule is that u can use anything you like. Duh"
Oh, right...my mistake.I thought we were looking at excerpts from a REAL space marine codex in the hands of one of the Fly Lords and not just supposition and here-say.Well then, guess some people better quit now while they're ahead...that is, before the all conquering space marine player-boogie men whup their butt, take their army men and send them packing.Me? I'll play,have fun and whup some butt of my own on the table with my chaos.
OH NOEZ MY ARMY IZ BROKEN!! I HATE YOU GW YOU MAKE MY LIFE HELL!!! MY ARMIES GOING ON EBAY!!!!
guys calm down... the dex isnt even out yet and let me see... how many of the people freaking out about this have playtested it??
none of this seems game breaking (except possibly the speicial characters but then they will probs cost a bundle points wise) and besides it does suggest great things for future codexes (codices?) for other armies (if they come out whithin a reasonable time scale)
Can this army be overpowered to the cheesy max? well quite possibly but once again we dont know any of the points costs for these things. As far as story gaming gos this kind of codex is great and will be amazing when they bring others out. And lets face it when have the tournaments not consisted almost entirely out of SM armies?
frootbat.
Fantastic stuff! I think I'll buy two copies of the codex so I can sleep with one!
@anonymous 12:58 - must...fight...urge...to give...nerd...wedgie....
Wow, this is gonna be one Awesome codex!
Makes me wish I hadn't sold my old Space Marine army. At least I'm in the process of painting a new one.
So I may be able to join the Marine fun in December!
Wow... This all sounds amazing.
Absolutely amazing, but unless the promised FAQ's for the DA and BA pretty much boil down to new codexes, there is almost nothing that they can do that the new book cant do better.
*sigh* -_-
I have no idea how GW's lawyers dont have plungers up you guys' asses by now...
For the most part I like it, but I feel the champions, relic blades, and new regular dreadnought options chip away at the unique natures of the Black Templars and Blood Angels.
ya gotta love marine players. After 1 year and a half of hearing how GW makes broken codexes because falcons don't die at the first shot, and now they tell the rest of us to STFU for daring to say some of this might be a little OTT. Typical. And they say marine players aren't cry babies.
Will you be happy if you get the I win on a 2+ rule? No? Oh yeah that's right marines are supposed to win by default. It says so in the books.
Way to go GW you've broken what was shaping up to be a good game.
"Sisters only get the Bitch Slappiness of Peril"
That is pretty funny.
It goes nicely with the new Imperial Guard "Instant Defeat" rule.
It is only rumored as of yet. Inside sources hint that any imperial guard army with an opponent left standing at the beginning of the third game turn can automatically pack his army up and congratulate his opponent on a game well played.
My WIP Space Marine army has just been shelved. There's no way I want to be associated with this...monstrosity. That's really the only word I can think of to describe this new codex, and I want nothing to do with it.
If I keep playing Marines, I'll be switching to using the Black Templars or Dark Angels rules instead.
"I have no idea how GW's lawyers dont have plungers up you guys' asses by now..."
Specific point values for units are not listed, nor does it provide any of the detailed fluff or rulings concerning any of the game rules. BoLS is well within the IP violation boundaries.
That being said, w/o the point values for most of what’s presented here it’s hard to make balance statements. You never know until the codex is in hand. Moaning is rather premature at this point.
BA & DA players should be the only ones complaining at this point. Even if a FAQ gives them access to the googies their unique characters are still crap compared to those mentioned here. Now that GW has set a new standard for what a loyal marine army should look like both of those codices should be scrapped and updated, IMHO.
-Anon Ymous
Codex isn't even out and the game is already broken by it. Fing laughable.
CSM codex 3.5 will still be forever the most broken codex ever created and would own this rumored loyalist codex. Does no one recall teh same knashing of teeth when defilers were rumored? Obliterators as elites were rumored? etc...
And the game did not fall apart when it was released. Quite the contrary, that dex, with as many balance issues as it had, was a much needed shot in the arm for 40k back then. I see this new SM codex is much the same thing for 40k now (along with the very hard as nails Ork dex).
i realize this is how space marines are suppose to be... its just the abundance of relic blades and storm shields in character units.
Previously, anything above a 4+ invulnerable had no drawbacks and i understand that assault terminators are now beasts, but does every other character have to one? Relic blades should've been also more rare, otherwise why even waste text space on lighting claws being an option?
Chapter masters can now slay demonprince's so easily. This is good in the long term because demonprinces are going to get alot better(hopefully).
DEAR GOD! I hope this will be carried on to my necrons,
the marines have had 2-3 codexs in the time i have had 1, and i hope they release plastic necrons too, anyone hearing me?
This codex is amazing, and i agree with some above, you are never gonna get more that 3-4 of these options in a normal sized game.
Well, I am a BA player and I am surely not complaining. First of all I am happy for my fellow Vanilla Marines players. Second I can't see anything here that my second Ork army can't handle. And last but not at all least I wonder how this upcoming FAQ is going to affect my BA Codex.
It's not really the Special Characters I am interested in like Dante etc, but the small little things like an Assault Squad can now carry flamers. Combine this with the fact that Assault Squads are standard troops in the BA Codex and you get my point. ;-)
um yeah like you guys aren't over reacting. i mean yeah the sm's have the firepower to blow off khornes kahooneys, but imagine how high the points cost is gonna be? in the bl fiction its like
"the traitor titan stomped on the space marine several times, only to see him get up and slap it with a lightning claw"
and remember the movie marines list from the American white dwarf ages ago (forget the number)
the marines will be over powerful and over expensive, hopefully (im an IG player by the way so don't say im just defending them)
i really hope that more people can have thunder hammers as they seem to have been forgotten about, seeing as the salamanders IC gives them master crafted this could be quite important for a sallies army.
So the way I see it is this:
Codex-adherent Chapters (maybe 90% of them, according the the background) have a vast array of cool new bitz that only they can use, along with the restrictions on that army. So much stuff that we never need to see another cookie cutter army again.
Dark Angels and their successors have a solid firebase available to them with a focus on speedy bikes and Terminators.
Blood Angels and their successors have a solid firebase available with a focus on assault-hungry madmen.
Black Templars have a reasonably solid firebase available to them with a greater variety of effective squad sizes and weapon fits.
Space Wolves will have something else that makes them different.
That is very cool!
Te divergent Chapters are just that, divergent. Not vanilla plus divergent-flavored syrup.
Nice work GW, I'm onboard with this.
i dont like the new codex..lotso uber overpriced uberveteran squads...tunderfire cannon at the price of 2 whirlwinds..only captains can get a 5 man command suad(lol what should i do with these? put em in a razorback with TL nerfcannons?)..tactical squads seem useless for meh(they could be CSed but the vetsarged CC CS is pretty creepy..or they can be an uber overpriced firebase unit or they can rhino or pod with 1 plasma)...everything can have funny upgrades but my chaplain can't take 2LCs...MoTforge is fun tho(well maybe only it's ubercannon, having 6 overpriced dreads is not too fun)...master has a creepy 1sot OB instead RoB..all other chars have 2w...and i would choose LRC over LRR any day...LS storm is pretty shitty too(where would it carry 5 shitty 15p ws/BS3 scouts, especially if they can come from any table edge?)..so i dont like it that much
Wow. I've never heard so much nerdy comments. I think I'll burn my gw stuff now.
give em to meh insteed
Now calm down guys. As many, many others have mentioned there are no point values attached to any of these RUMORS.
But lets just take a step back for a moment and think about a couple of things. The horde armies have been getting cheaper on a per man basis (orks, rumored 4pt guard, etc...). Can anyone look at these rules and think that marines are going to stay at 15pts per guy or get cheaper?
I don't have any insider info on this, but I'm betting the studio has decided to make marines great and expensive.
So you'll end up with a a pretty badass army on an individual basis that is always heavily outnumbered, probably even against Chaos.
"ya gotta love marine players. After 1 year and a half of hearing how GW makes broken codexes because falcons don't die at the first shot, and now they tell the rest of us to STFU for daring to say some of this might be a little OTT. Typical. And they say marine players aren't cry babies."
ye........... were the cry babies....... idiot
ive said this before- chaos have dirty tricks- eldar always have- nids do- orks do now- de do- necrons are insanely tough- but no marines cant be good......
you havent even seen the codex and your complaining wtf
"...there are no point values attached to any of these RUMORS"
Just wanted to point out that in the round-up the Tac Marines DO have a points cost: 90 for 4 and a vet sarge and 165 for a full squad. Now this is could be just a rumour based upon the DA 'dex or it could be their actual cost. If it is then Tac Marines are still 15pts.
Go figure... :/
Youch.
'Universal Special Rule' must be English for 'Let's give them all to Ultramarines'.
I revel in the glory of being a Space Marine player.
However, I do reckon one or two of these things are a bit OP'd, such as Sternguard Vets being able to pick ammo types to fire each turn, and other little things like that. However, I'm more than confident that the points cost will balance all this out.
The ICs are freaking ridiculous but very cool. I think the Librarian changes will be interesting (Initiative 4 tho, not impressed), and Chaplain's giving Fearless to his squad was really needed.
Can't wait for this codex, there are going to be some epic fights. Bring on the Thunderfire cannon, and bring on everyone elses codices :D
um, is it just me, or does it seem strange only captains can take command squads forcing the chapter master to only take honour guard?
and from what I am reading, the chap master can upgrade his bolter to a storm bolter, and then upgrade his ccw and pistol to lightning claws. Does this mean we will see a lot of guns mounted on the backs of lightning claws?
nice to see the aux grenade launcher back in. Hadn't gotten around to converting them off my old miniatures. SO no work for me! And as a bonus they get to work in combo with their bolter counterpart.
and chronos is going to be a default choice, along with one or two of the other specials.
and the signum for the devastators is a new piece of info to me. another BS5 shot per turn with a heavy? The scout special character giving his BS5 to a scout heavy weapon as well... Like, with the new scatter rules are going to make them pretty damn good at hitting their targets. Good-bye cheap horde armies!
3+ invul, 2+ save, special rules for all... it doesn't matter, my 300 lasguns will still rule them! all this stuff makes them hard hitting but when you cant follow through, you'll kill a couple of squads then face the shear numbers of the rest of my army.
the game is about numbers, not the specific single digits each character has but the meat mass that you bring to the table.
makes me want to start an ork or tyranid army.
but seriously, did the chappy get kicked out?! hes no better than a veteran now (cept his WS).
"ye........... were the cry babies....... idiot"
Yes, yes you are the crybabies. The 3.5 Chaos codex was powerful, but hardly cheese (everyone conveniently seemed to forget the 100pt Wargear limit for Chaos Lords), but because we could field such myriad and varied lists those poor simpleton Loyalist players couldn't make a specialised list to flatten any arbitrary Chaos player, and the BAAAWWWW-ing commenced. So what do we get? 70% of GW's player base crying, and GW feels that one straight through their precious bank accounts, so Chaos gets the chopping block. Eldar and Orks have enough popularity that any Loyalist whingeing can be handwaved, but COME ON.
This Codex is bloody awesome and I'm finding the temptation hard to start a Loyalist army myself, and I'm a staunch Iron Warrior (oh noes, the CHEESE!) and Necron player. What gets my goat is that all the excuses GW pulled out of their ass when the 4th ed Chaos codex came under fire seem to have been thrown out of the window. They've remained strong on the anti-min/maxing stance, but giving Tac squads cheap/free heavy weapons virtually negates that! And hey, too many Wargear options make HQ choices 'too complicated', not if you're a Loyalist it seems!
Just goes to show that GW is nothing more than a BUSINESS, and a pretty underhanded one at that. The most popular armies get the best rules, so that the majority of their customers stay happy and continue to feed them immense amounts of money. With their money-grubbing, weasely attitude and iron-fisted stance on legal rights, they should axe the miniatures business and become a law firm!
I am openly disgusted with GW. There's one of two ways they're going to play this; a rushed Chaos codex that's thrown out the door to help mop up the puddle of snot that was the previous one, or most Chaos players shelve their armies for the next five years. Neither option sounds like fun to me. Anyone up for some Warmachine, perhaps?
Could the inclusion of Legion of the Damned be another sign from our friends in the fluff department that the Emperors time is really coming to an end. Lexicanum quotes a banner left by the marines as saying "dedicato imperatum ultra articulo mortis (For the Emperor beyond the point of death)".
No no... They'll redo IG to sell lots of models (3 Leman Russ for 1 HS slot, Plastic Valk). Then, the DE will be a good excuse to sell a complete new army to other players (as well as a nice break to plyers who suffered indifference). After which necrons will be getting a break. Then, you Chaos guys will get "Legions" codex (thus stopping the Chaos-playing guy's whining and getting new whining from loyalists). After which SMs will get another codex, because they need one every 3 years, maximum. Then, Tau will get another codex, the 3rd in 10 years. Tyranid will by then need a boost. Possibly bringing MC to 10 wounds and a special "nid-rending" that works like in 4th edition. Daemons, Eldars and Ork will be revamped.
Oh, and yeah, the Inquisition will be botched at the end of the "5 years plan" that will have dragged on 8-9 years...
Oh, and, BTW, I just received my SM battleforce yeasterday! I can't wait to play SpaceMarines 40,000. It's supposed to be great fun!
Phil
Wow, so much rage? Please, have you guys ever thought about the cost of some of the stuff we Marine players are getting? Most of the SCs will be above the 200 point mark. Heck, Ignatius over at Bolter and Chainsword pretty much confirmed it.
To give one an idea, the Sternguard, with their differed ammo, come at about 25 points a piece. That's without any other options aside from their bolters! Add in the upgrades, well, you'll get a pretty expensive unit that can't take objectives.
And in the end, it's all about the numbers. Chaos, for all the abuse heaped on them this past edition, STILL has better troop choices than DIY/Codex chapters, plus the Orks and Eldar will STILL kick our power-armored arses on the tabletop (at least, that of an inept player).
So guys, chill.
I highly doubt 'most chaos players' will be shelving their armies. And it took this codex to make you realize that GW is nothing more than a business? What else should they be? A business/vacuum cleaner? Or maybe a business/bottle opener? You can go ahead and play Warmachine - judging by your emo whining, it doesn't sound like you'd be missed much.
On top of all of this, I have to make a note.
Beardy/Cheesy players are always going to be exactly that. You give them a codex, and like the jerks that they are, they're going to abuse the hell out of it.
I have yet to play a "tournament" Space Marine army that didn't play about the same way with las/plas and a specific set up for their command squad. People like this are going to be jerks with the new codex like they were with the last codex.
It isn't like we haven't seen this half a million times with the Eldar, or the Tyranids, or just about any army. When I played with the 3.5 Chaos Codex, I was laughed at for playing a dedicated Khorne army because it wasn't tournament effective, yet someone would always cry "cheesy" when I won.
Now, on the note of what I'm actually looking forward to? The companies, the individual armies are going to see some flavor beyond chapter traits and specific abilities to maximize the amount of "juice" you can squeeze out of tactical squads.
And yes. I play a dedicated Ultramarines army specifically.
Well looks like all those thunderhammers I've put on my vet;s in my Salamanders army how to come off. Drat. ohh well I've had to re-organize just about every edition so far, what is one more.
Meh, As an Ork, I says,
"'Bout time dem Beakies toughened up, deys been no fun at all in the Rukk lately, I havn't even worked up a sweat stomping Beaky armies since I gots My Dex!"
"Beardy/Cheesy players are always going to be exactly that. You give them a codex, and like the jerks that they are, they're going to abuse the hell out of it."
Im sorry GW cant write and playtest their codexes. Dont hate the player, hate the poorly written rules. If you dont like it, go play your inbred version of 40K that only you and your sissy friends cant handle.
An impressive set of stuff, but I am a little disappointed at the plethora of 3++ saves and units that can assault right after deep strike.
Its always irritating to have someone come in and wipe your units before you have a chance to respond.
Whirlwind does have incendiary. Shotguns have manstopper shells. Check the Space marine index in the back of the 40K rulebook.
@ BA & DA players should be the only ones complaining at this point. Even if a FAQ gives them access to the googies their unique characters are still crap compared to those mentioned here. Now that GW has set a new standard for what a loyal marine army should look like both of those codices should be scrapped and updated, IMHO.
I like that thinking!
Wow, my army just got so broken it's not even funny.
I'll have to revamp the whole goddamn thing from start to finish.
Thanks GW!
Hey guys, why not waiting to see point costs before saying this codex is overpowered?
The rumors listed here and before let imagine VERY high point costs.2 examples: the chaplain is said to keep its point cost but has been heavily nerfed. Scouts are said to cost 15pts each. and if you want stealt you have to pay it apart! And these are just examples. in standard 2k pts challenges, SM armies will be smaller than with the current dex. And the new goodieswill be far too expensive to be mass fielded in anything different than apocalipse games. What I mean to say is the new dex seem to be flavourful, but the actual strength of the army won't change much. And I think it's a good thing. people always complaining about SM uber power just show prejudice. If u are searching for a real overpowered army, try playing orks. You'll stop complaining about a dex we stilldon't know then.
I'm hoping this means future codex books will bring cool rewards for the other armies.
Something like a HUGE Chaos book allowing to field either Legions, Traitor Chapters, Daemons or LaD with many characters and sprues.
Or new Inquisition stuff like Ordo Xenos, and plastic Grey Knights or Sisters.
And of couse, Ordo Xenos leads to alien races which could be allies of Tau...
Well, dreaming is free... minis aren't...
What are the most popular armies? I'd say Marines and Chaos Marines. No wonder why.
Marines codex = Masturbation
Have fun playing with yourselves - no one else will.
Marines play an entirely different game now. It's kind of sad because I had such high hopes for 5th after picking up the book. Now all the shines gone
I was listening to the D6 Generation Podcast about 5th and the guys were enthusiastic, but reserved their overall estimate until the new codexes started arriving. Now I know why.
Glad I play Warmachine too now.
I'm a BA player, and I see these rumors as mostly bringing vanilla marines into line with our Codex. Of course there are some things I'd like to have (Redeemers, possibly the Scout Landspeeder), but for the most part these things are likely to be too expensive. Special characters aren't important for me because the person who organizes most of the games I play in doesn't allow them.
But, as a BA player, I still have access to Rhinos and AV 13 Baal Predators that can Ram at 18".
Anyway... why do people insist upon claiming that the game is doomed because of some rumors? Everyone and their attack squig swore that 5th edition was going to suck or be broken, and it's not. Have a little faith.
@ Anyway... why do people insist upon claiming that the game is doomed because of some rumors?
Because there are a lot of prats, gits, dickweeds and smeg-heads out there, each dumber than a bagful of hammers.
Every time a new book comes out, be it the main rule book or a new Codex with significant changes, there are utter gimboids who insist everything is ruined.
Yet somehow the game and models are more popular than ever, so at least we can be thankful that the twits that keep crying, while loud, must be the minority of GW's customers.
Glad I like to model, since these rumors mean my NON-TOURNAMENT, FLUFFY army will lose to marines, again and again, and again, and again...
Yay Marines, you needed some love. But why does GW have such a craptactular release schedule for needed army updates (models can wait, rules are important for FAIR play)
I'd love to see a Xenos Hunters army. They mention them a few time before like in the 4th edition rulebook (the strategy ratings) but I only see an out-dated Deathwatch entry in White Dwarf. A full army would be nice but then maybe that's just me.
What a load....
BYE
@everyone who complains about chaos marines.
in 5th edition, chaos is a very good army. they have the best troop choices in the game (I'm looking at you, death guard and thousand sons) and can create huge units which have to be completly wiped out to keep them from scoring.
the new Sm units are shiny and killy, but there are no real upgrades in the troop department. scouts are now much more expensive and less effective, and tac squads must be 10 strong to get any upgraded weapons.
based on current costs, lets look at how much each unit might be points wise (this is all speculative)
tac vets-25 pts -an expensive unit, but small and no real assualt value (think mobile devestators)
assualt vets- 35-40 pts -another small unit that can assualt on the turn it lands, but risks landing on the unit and being destroyed, or getting sho to pieces after they kill the unit (character assasination, perhaps)
honor guard-25-30 pts a really expensive unit that must stay with an equally expensive unit. if used this will take up a majority of the players points, and is not a scoring unit
chapter master- 125-130 pts amazing, expensive and not a scoring unit. (possibly can only take an honor guard)
captain- 100pts more expensive, but not as effective without his current leadership rule.
chappie- 85pts- still kicks ass in combat, but has only 2 wounds and 2 attacks
librarian- 115 points- less effective, and much more close ranged, again, with only 2 wounds and 2 attacks
redeemer-250 points- a large bbqthat must get within 8" to be effective. real close to melta guns
remember people, that these new units are not going to be the only thing a sm player will use. if the player wants to use a master with honor guard, and the new veterans, he will have to live with very small troop units. take out the troops and the best he can do is a draw
if anyone thinks they have it bad, they should hump it with the imperial guard for a few games
-eddie
What's all the fuss about "free" weapons for Tactical Squads? A 10 Man Squad is 150 points. Missile Launchers are 10. Flamers are 6. The rumored cost for a 10 man squad is 165 points. As a 5 man squad, you loose the weapon upgrades and still pay an extra 15 points. Presumably this is to take account of the mandatory Veteran Sergeant, a term that is being obsoleted.
In reality, the only thing this "free" upgrade does is put an end to packets of 5 man squads carrying 2 weapon upgrades. People are screaming bloody murder because Marines are forced to use less special weapons?
I'm going to have to side with those that don't think this is going to be an overpowered list.
Generic Marines and generic Chaos Marine look pretty similar. Marines get ATSKNF and 2 attacks when charging. Chaos Marines lack ATSKNF but have 3 attacks when charging and 2 attacks when charged. If memory services, they also can field larger squads.
Isn't that pretty much a wash? For every cool squad that Marines are getting, you can probably point to an equally cool Chaos squad.
Anyhow, arguing on the internet is pointless. I'm just baffled why people think the sky is falling.
Amen Eddie @ 11:49
Look if you don't like the new Space Marine Codex (or the new Chaos Space Marine Codex for that matter) then don't play with/against it. Just use the old codexes. I've never meet a 40K player who wouldn't let you play with them in a regular non-tournement game, and to all those power gamers out there who wouldn't, what are you so worried about? That you might lose I bet. If thats your only real reason to be such an a@#-hole then just play the game by yourself that way you could never lose, and you can go down in history as the biggest unbeaten loser ever! But whatever you chose do to quit whining about every rumor that goes up on a blog and just wait till the release to start your b@#$%ing, at least that way you'll have facts not rumors to base you complaints on.
Important note: Marneus Calgar only lets you choose to pass or fail and MORALE test, not Leadership as is stated in this article. Source = http://warseer.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=43902&d=1218689333
I've been saying for a while that this codex is overpowered. I don't think anyone can argue that it isn't a codex chock full of ridiculously strong models. However, from what I've heard, the points cost accurately reflect this.
I think the biggest problem, though, is that it seems all the advantages that other races have to make them special are also included in the Space Marine army in some way. You want to deep strike an army on the first turn, but don't like daemons? Try some drop pods. Like the protection of a 3+ invulnerable save, but want it for more than just really fast ghost robots? Hey, you have some options for Smurfs! You want the power of a Tau Railgun, but hate on little blue aliens? Well, there's three different options now in this codex.
Come on, GW! I remember being blown away when I saw the Tau. A S10 AP1 weapon? Back then, that was crazy! Stop the power creep, it only hurts you by making units cost more points. Ergo, we buy less for a 1500 point army.
Two things bug me here:
1- Captains with WS6. I can understand giving this to Chapter Masters, but for regular Captains it's too much.
2- Librarians getting two powers. Unless they are more expensive to make up for the fact Chaos Sorcerers must pay extra to do this.
Looking at everything, I think that the main problem is that Marines aren't really the first codex for 5th Ed., as they have been with previous editions. Releasing Dark Angels, Blood Angels and Chaos before a basic Marine list was a huge mistake, as the Marine list sets the benchmark that these other Codices work from.
I'm going to stick with my Iron Warriors for now, but I think I'm going to swap when Space Wolves or Imperial Guard come out.
Just out of curiosity, if someone had posted under Dakka Discussions or Warseer Rules Development, an SM list that had HQ's that were hardier than Nurgle Daemon Princes, Librarians with a greater variety of rather strong psychic powers than Tzeentchian Sorcerors, Elites with AP3 bolt guns, Assault Vets that could assault from Deep Strike, PotMS that fires at normal BS, and that gave ML's to tac squads for free...what exactly would you have said three months ago?
You probably would have thought it ridiculous.
I still do.
I chuckled a little at the people who posted "serious" posts backing the list. I'll just make a stab and say a majority of those people play SMs.
Now I've got to say I'm in the same boat as most of the Xenos army commanders. The SMs have always been a little silly in my opinion but some of the crap on this new list takes the cake. Jesus, as if it wasn't easy enough to tailor a list to fight against any opponent now you can handpick it right down to the damn ammo.
I'll take this all with a grain of salt mind you cause god knows the SMs are the favored sons of GW but I sweat to the Hive Mind I will freaking leap across the table and bitchslap the first SM player that plays with this codex and complains about facing my Nidzilla armylist.
After reading this post lots of you are worried about the powergamers wrecking the game due to all the powerfull new toys, and as a former powergamer I can say that they probabley will, but all of this is still only rumor and there are no confirmed unit costs, and as pointed out if you have all these nice new units then you will not have many scoring units to win objectives and as a vet' Ultramarine player I know the power the humbol tactical squad has and with enough of them you will beat any powergamer.
Andrew
Overall, it seems to be a really good Codex.
But I really hate they way special and heavy weapons can be taken by Tactical Squads. It should have been the same way as in the DA and BA Codices! That was nice and clean, no free stuff nonsense and a special weapon still available to a 5 man squad.
Plus, Deepstriking + Assaulting + many power weapon attacks is just silly!
To all who are worried about power gamers don't be the cost for some of these new units is substantial. Yes the units are good, but they realy have to pay for them.
thegodofnothing I think you are over reacting for the reasons stated above, its a typical knee jerk new codex reaction. And the fact you play a nidzilla list make your comments quite hypacritical! Oh you may now get a proper game from marines rather than just trouncing them!
@anon 3:44
It's not going to be hard to trounce Nidzill when you have bolters that wound on a 2+, 10 of those rapid firing into a 4 wound carnifex should kill it dead even with its 3+ save on average.
Lets face it, looking at the recent Dark Angels, Chaos, and Blood Angels books, then comparing them to this, there is no comparison, the new SM codex is far and away better in terms of power and option viability, as well as shiny new goodies. If you saw these changes suggested on this site a couple months ago before they were leaked you would have thought them rather silly.
It's like they're actually trying to piss off all the Chaos players they screwed over with that pathetic excuse for a Chaos Codex.
Can't believe we're stuck with that for the next 6 years.
And it looks like loads of cool new rules for all the new model kids. How unsurprising.
BYE
The only decent Chaos Codex was 4th Ed (or 3.5, depending on how you look at it), because at the time it best represented what Chaos is supposed to be capable of. Unfortunately it was way to open to abuse and now we're suffering for it.
If the former Marine Codex had as many 'invisible' rules and fewer structural ones, I don't think we would be seeing this with the current list.
Chaplin with only 2 attacks sucks along with by the looks every one having Initive 4. Not even special characters with 5
That is kind of dumb. Other than that though its pretty damn good.
Heres a thought, I'm assuming most people that play WH40K, play against friends. So when playing a game against your opponent/friend why don't you agree to play 2 games against each other, one game you use your army, and then in the next game you play your opponents army.
You might just learn something more about your army, your opponent the game and how things tend to generally balance themselves out. Also If you lose against your own army you might realise it's not much fun playing against cheese, and hopefully this will make you more inclined to go for a more balanced approach.
But hey, if you must complain about anything being overpowered, complain about dice :)!!! OMG, how many times have you thought that your in for a sure win, but then you roll nothing but 1's.
As an example back in 4th edition I had a rather expensive CC carnifex who finally waded into battle with 2 Tau gun drones (yes a pathetic target, but nothing else was in close proximity). Well for his 200+ worth of points, he managed to kill 0 Gun Drones, how much does a gun drone cost??? free with a devilfish I think, embarrasing.
Cheers,
Anon
This is a great looking codex.May start marines myself. However all this my codex doesnt get rubbish is nonsense. It is the 1st codex of 5th edition,if this level of detail goes into all options it will be great. There will always be one army saying wow wish i had that but they could always turn it around and say i wish i had X out of your codex. Skimmed and read alot of chaos players moaning, daemon weapons!? I wouldnt mind them. Oblits?Fantastic. Come on,we all have good and bad things.
Except dark eldar which suck until next codex :-)
This is not the first Codex for 5th Edition. The current Eldar Codex was the first with this system in mind.
I will need to make some changes to my marine army since it is built around Stern with 6 man squads in razorbacks, but I am excited.
If this is true, I'm going back to CSM 3.5
Or maybe Warmachine.
@ Gaz1858
unfortunately the level of detail seen here will putter away and marines will be left with such great lists while other armies are more lacking.
it has already been hinted at that GW feels they went a little overboard on the special characters and will be toning it down for future codices. This doesn't bode well for the OTT rules SMurfs just received.
This is very exciting! I started playing when 4th came out, and I started a marine army. Since then, Ive seen my marines drop lower and lower in the power rankings. I play Crimson Fists AND I use their BS traits (which is crap). Sure, I could have used the trait system to cheat and take all sorts of BS while taking "no allies" as my drawback, but that is akin to speedlords in the old Chaos book.
NOW it seems that marines are going to be interesting, if not REALLY expensive. I'm a friend of the Bothan Spy, and he says that while marines are gonna be cool, they are also going to be VERY costly in points. Im cool with it, since I have always liked my assault army, and now I can do neat things with Kantor (its with a K bigred) and the stermguard vets.
I will parrot the statements that there is too much BAAAAAAAAAW and butthurt in these threads. Save that crap for Failseer and CrappaCrappa.
The thing that kind of got me ticked was the fact that Tigris is now an equal to Eldrad Ulthran?! WTF? It just ticks me off how Marine Librarians are as good as Farseers... What ever.
-V
all the people who said that the marine players will NOT be able to fit in all the special stuff are right. you won`t see all the special stuff unless you are playing apocalypse and even then the marines will be terribly outnumbered.
I play marines and i am more intrested in the conversion oppertunities like the salamander charater than beating hell out of everyone at GW preston because you would not be liked for it very much.
Um Tigrus is supposed to be one of the most powerful librarians around - I think Mesthiphon and the Space Wolves Rune Priest with the Psyber Raven are his only real equals - so Im ok with him being super powerful. Besides Eldrad got himself eaten by Slaanesh so I think he deserves being knocked down a peg :P
As long as the army list doesnt devolve back to the RT/ Early 2nd Edition Blood Angels level (Tricked out Librarian and 2 or 3 Termies for the win) I dont care, it looks cool with fluffy choices and will probably be so costly most armies around 1750 to 2000 pts will only have one or two of the new stuff. It might not start out that way but with the 5th rules I think it will gravitate to that.
Bitch, bitch, bitch. I swear. To hear some of the people on this thread tell it, this codex with a bunch of units only a fool would take more than two of is the end of the world.
Also, what's the deal with all the hate for Marine players? A lot of people on here seem to assume that if you play Marines you're six years old and get your rocks off by smashing other people into the dust. Whether this codex ends up being too powerful or not, keep one thing in mind: We Marine players *did not write it!* But at the same time we're not going to up and switch armies just because some people say it's overpowered. I've put just as much time into my army as any of you, so if you have a problem with Marines now, take it up with GW. I had nothing to do with it. If this new codex is really such a problem, take your ball and go home. The universe is a vast place, and you will not be missed.
The sternguard vets with the different ammo is EXACTLY what I had written for my Mentor Legion Minidex.
Curse you GW! I know you are hacking my computer at night and stealing my ideas.
Looks great, cant wait
Eldrad lives! lol
All in all it is nice to see some of the things coming towards marines, there will be a lot of good combos and different armies. Though as a codex it is 'overpowered,' I think a lot of us are right to say that we won't see that come through in the games simply due to points limitations.
"Fine take a 300+ point, non scoring unit of marines that die as easily to my bolters..."
Mostly, Im excited cause it makes me want to get back to building my pre-heresy luna wolves... I love incentives.
-V
@ Anon 10:53
Can you source when GW said they went a little overboard on Special Characters? Was it an interview, or someone's post on a forum? I really would love to read it.
Can you imagine the community backlash if GW actually made the next codex not live up to this one? "I'm sorry, we made these Space Marine Characters WAAAAAYYYYY too powerful, so for the next few codices we'll make characters very underwhelming. It makes sense to us, only Space Marine Characters should be so powerful anyway!"
No. No, GW. You started the ball rolling, you have to keep it up. Don't punish other armies for your mistakes on SMs.
lol, their reply will be simply... "Be thankful we didn't release movie marines special characters"
-V
@everyone
please remember that it is just a game.
the special characters are indeed very killy, but they will also be very expensive, I read somewhere that Marneus calgar is supposed to be in the 230 points range. If that is the case, then I have no problem with him using a character as expensive as a land raider. remember, your opponent will have to work very hard to ensure that these characters kill enough to be worth the points. if these characters take retinues or honor guards, shoot enough at them until they die. there units will be small, and with the new wound allocation rules, the special character will be taking alot of saves
and if anyone is wondering, no, I do not play SM, I have an imperial guard and titan legion army
-eddie
Apparently the Devs roll a D6 when they start work on each Codex and on a 1-3 they dumb it down, on a 4+ they make it awesomesauce. Add +2 to the roll for SM codices (rolled a 1 for Dark Angels, ha)
As a DA player I would just like to say to all CSM players:
"Suck it up, you have a good balanced codex that is no way as crappy as my DA codex!"
There is no way for me to field more than two plasma gun in a single squad, you can have up to four or better yet play thousand sons and you have AP3 bolters!
I like the new SM codex, I think it will be fairly balanced as I know how much you try to squeeze in all the good stuff, just too realize that you lack the numbers to do anything with your army.
My biggest beef is common equipment having different stats, like cyclone missile luncher being heavy 2 in on codex an heavy 1 in some other. Too much confusion.
And also why should I pay more for a lesser version?
What about trait armies which had tactical marines equipped with bp/ccw? I see that Shrike grants fleet, but does he also grant the ability to take these options?
Thank you.
My sources tell me that Marneus will cost 250pts.
I find this interesting since he contrubutes so much to the entire force if you take him.
Azrael in the DA codex is 225... intersting that the only "uber" thing he does is add a +4 inv save to a squad he joins and you can upgrade a banner if you take a banner bearer in a command squad.
My source also says that the way the force commander augments the army cannot be combined... you can take two "uber" guys but must choose which one gives the goodies.
By the way, "uber" or should I say "ubermein"... if I am remembering this correctly means "superman" or very close to it in german. So all you guys calling marines, "uber" marines... thanks... because they are supermen fluff-wise and game-wise.
I don't see the problem. You can augment Orks with the type of commander you take. Eldar, Traitor Space Marines, and Orks all have upgrades within their squads.
I don't think that a Veteran Sergeant compared to a champion or exarch is much of an argument that they are overpowered.
I don't think that Space Marine Hero's going toe to toe against say... the Nightbringer, or a Hive Tyrant, or Greater Deamon, or Chaos Lord is the "favored" guy.
I think most of these rumors... if true... end up being how marines play. Marines get one shot at shooting the enemy or one shot at CC in their favor in specific situations. Marines will always be out gunned and outmanned.
just my thoughts,
Tim Weston
Sternguard Vets = Xenos Hunters
Honour Guard = Grey Knights
New SM Codex = Bad News for Inquisition
Wow at first I was quite annoyed at the huge amount of bawling and wailing these RUMOURS have caused but now I' reading some of these posts and just laughing.
So really if you are just so upset that giving CONSTRUCTIVE criticism to GW hasnt even crossed your minds then please, put your money where your mouth is and stick your armies on EBay I'd be more than happy to take them off you.
So why does a Space Marine squad with a missile launcher and a flamer cost less than a CSM squad with such equipment? While CSM's get an extra attack, the SM's get ATSKNF and Combat Tactics to compensate. Why are they cheaper?
Why do they get a Missile Launcher, Flamer, and Combat Tactics for the *exact* same price as a Dark Angels tac squad with no ML, flamer or Combat Tactics?
Why does the SM Land Raider get to transport 12 guys while the DA, BA and CSM one only transports 10?
Why has GW done a complete 180* with this codex after what they have been doing the last 18 months with Space Marine armies?
@ Tim Weston
"Marines will always be outgunned..."
Based on this statement I can only assume your post is dripping with sarcasm.
No other army has the options Space Marine Characters now will have that affect the entire army. Now, I'm not saying it's overpowered, but you cannot compare that to anything any other army has. I wish I could give every ork in my army fleet, or the ability to outflank my trukks. Most of all, I wish my orks were stubborn... that would be great!
But a bit ridiculous.
Space Marines outgun many other armies. Should I list them?
Tyranids and orks - I'm pretty sure I don't need to clarify these. If you disagree, read a codex. Then the rule book. Then the codex again.
Chaos - Now this is one that is debatable, but I stand by it mostly because of Space Marine vehicles - the land raider pair that Chaos lacks, land speeders, the whirlwind - and because of a lot of the new goodies they get, such as the Conversion Beamer and the Thunderfire Cannon. Chaos does have a lot of good options in Noise Marines, but Thousand Sons have been matched by the Sternguard Vets and the Defiler is more close combat oriented.
I could go on, but I won't. The Space Marines are not outgunned, except occasionally. Their excellent BS combined with top notch weaponry (now THREE!!! ways to have a S10 AP1 shot) mean that if you're outgunned as a Space Marine army, you've either put together a combat oriented force or you're facing Guardsmen.
They usually are outmanned, though. I'll give you that.
My God! What whinsey pansies!
First, like others have said, "its just a game!"
If you follow the lore or stroyline of 40K, which the game is based on, you'll see this fits.
Space Marines were created by the Emperor. They have been around for a millenia. They should be the toughest and the baddest. They have access to all the technology and research to perfect them. Chaos has to scrounge their weaponry. Even the Chaos SM lore says some of the lost have to strip the battlefield to replace thier power armor.
You people take the codex too literal. If it was just the codexes that ruled the game, how could a green moron born of a mushroom conquer most of the galaxy (and then when they are about to conquer the rest, their Waaagh just runs out and they disperse).
I play Space Marines and Chaos Marines. Space marines will always be outnumbered but not outgunned. Chaos has a lot more of troop options but not a lot of different weaponary.
Which brings us to the basis of the game. Its a table top strategy game. It doesn't matter what army you have. Its the TACTICS you use.
If you are always losing to a certain army, blame yourself for not knowing how to use your army, not the codex!
I've played 40K since first edition, and I can honestly say I can't remember a single time when I set up my vanilla marine army on a game board and heard my opponent say "Crap, I don't think I can beat marines." In my opinion, the marines have needed a boost in the game from the very beginning. Sounds like some of you out there have gotten a little too used to stomping the marines into the ground, and now you're a little worried. It's about time!
@ anon 7:05 pm
try three units of 15 loota's with def guns in open-topped battlewagons... 15 to 45 str 7 ap 4 shots at 48" inches... sounds outgunned to me when compared to marines
as for tyranids... I know marines have more "guns" than nids but nids have more "claws" than marines and better initiatives (genstealers, a troop choice are Int 6) and... you can tailor the bigger bugs to either be shooty or close combat.... ever face a wiged hive-tyrant with four wounds in the hands of an expirienced hive mind... just hope for the draw
For ALL the DA/BA/SW/BT Players out there who insist on complaining about the new stats for the weaponry. Shut up. The new codex still isn't out, when you get your new codex's it will be adjusted to like the new CSM.
As for everyone else who is complaining about the FIRST NEW CODEX for 5th Edition GW has already leaked that they are going to be releasing more new codex's soon so calm down you will get yours soon.
Just keep in mind there are 5 of Space Marines vs 10-20 of everyone else. You make the marines make enough saves and you will eventually kill them. it is all luck of the roll.
And the BA codex will probably get updated with the SMC cause its online.
"waahhh shut up, SM need this boost so bad !11!111shiftone!"
Please, the current SM codex is by no means underpowered, has the cheapest heavy weapons in the game, some of the best wargear options and solid units all around. This new codex was needed like a Bill Gates needs a Mortgage loan. SM's with their current dex are still on par with just about everything else.
Given that the current SM dex allows armies to be fielded with more heavy weapons than most Imperial Guard armies and still fielding 80 Ld10 ATSKNF marines (6 havoc squads, 2 10man tac squads, and a basic Master, with 26 Heavy Weapons ) with 3 infiltrating Havoc squads in 2000pts, or 6 dreads in 1000pts, and other such sillyness, I really don't see why a new SM codex was needed, much less why Space Marines need a host of new units, or why the basic SM versions of everything has to be better (like expanded capacity LR's and Drop Pods, and *free* heavy weapons)
wow, what a pile of shit
I was majorly disappointed when the incredibly bland chaos codex came out, simplified to the basics, but took comfort that this would happen to the next codexes...
Then marines get fleshed out diverse codex, once again, at expense of every other race
Don't ever talk sense with people on the interweb - you can't win.
These same people complaining are the same ones who have yet to actually read the book.
Can anyone who has read the book (somehow) perhaps let us know if any of the rumours are incorrect?
The thing I think people forget is that Space Marines are meant to be the best of the best. There are meant to be up to one thousand of them in a chapter, a fifth of the size of a standard real life regiment. They're specialist, armed with great equipment and fantastic training so they should be great on the table top. I only hope that their specialist elite status is reflected in their points cost too.
What people also forget is the shift in points cost from edition to edition. Armies doubled in size from second to third edition. I can only hope that the specialist nature of the Space Marines is reflected in them having significantly smaller sized armies than their opponents. There shouldn't be any complaints until we see a second codex for fifth edition which provides an army that will be competitive against space marine forces.
This is turning into a crazy maelstrom. In response to the people saying "they won't be able to fit it all in": it doesn't matter. Any one/two of those new units are crazy. The HQ that allows your Sterngard Veterans *cough*ordo xenos marines *cough* to be scoring units? 10pt lascannons for Tac Squads? Once again I will take some of the advice and assume this is a knee jerk response but there will never ever be sympathy from me to SM players with the ridiculously wide assortment of toys and goodies GW showers on them.
Is anyone else like me in their SM list?
I have never taken a special character. Just a chaplain, tac squads, scouts, termies, and assault squads, and vehicles.
Since the rules for traits seem to be tied to high point cost SCs I will take one, but I will need to adjust other things in the way I play marines to make it all work.
I play marines because I'm too damn lazy to mess around with all the models for my imperial guard army. 1500 points 30 models FTW!
Anon @ 5:58,
That's one of the things that has Chaos players in such a huff. While the Marine trait system is gone, Character abilities make up for it. Chaos doesn't even have that, to say nothing of Generic Daemons...
I'm a Marine, Chaos, Daemon and Eldar player. My girlfried plays sisters of battle....that's just to give you the knowledge of my gaming experience of present armies....
My Scout Marine army is loving the look of this new codex, yeah we're BS/WS 3 but so what? We'll probably have a drop in points or something else that will make up for it so I'm not too worried. That companied with my scout bikes and the heavy support of my dev squad and infiltrating command squad...yeah, loving it.
As an Eldar player....I can't see any problems with these rumours. Eldar has a specialist unit for every job and specialist skills with each unit....I just see the same thing carrying over here...does no-one else see this? Bring it on I say, lets see them handle my jetbike/skimmer army!
The Chaos again can easily handle this. Anyone who has a vague sense on how to create a decent army will see the strengths that Chaos have can easily make up for the advantages the Marines are gaining. Nurgle having +1 toughness and feel no pain...Khorne's extra attack....Thousand Sons AP3 bolters?? C'mon, screw your heads on and think before saying the codex is crap.
As for Daemons...I'm a pure Slaanesh player and can rack up about 60 models in 1000pts with 4 troops choices. All that rending at I5!!
The sisters....one sentence should some it up with regards to the Acts of Faith....20 sister strong troops with 2 stormbolters, turn them into rending weapons!
Seriously...a whole hoard of over-reacting on the badness when it's obvious that you can make a kick ass army with any codex that can handle these rumours....
Now....if Marines are 2 points each, then maybe I'd kick off.
I'm less than thrilled about needing to spend my points on characters and also buy the models for the tabletop. Traits cost me the flaws that I then had to build my army around.
Also, these things are tied to the character. Does that mean that they stop working if the character is killed? Another monkey wrench for me to deal with in game.
SPACE MARINE CODEX PREVIEW COPIES
GW stores in the US will have a preview copy of the Space Marine Codex on or about August 23. Patience, people, patience, there will be plenty of time for informed apoplexy over the new Codex then rather than the partially informed apoplexy going on here now. ;-)
My Iron Hands are looking forward to the master of the Forge. I'm gonna play sterngurad veterans as my deathwatch squad i think. Anyone else?
We are probably going to see larger variety of space marine builds but they look to be centered on the special characters.
Skrike with fleeting Vanguards
Cantor with Sternguard
Whitescars character and outflanking army.
If the characters are overpowered just try to get the local tournaments or leagues to run named character free or limited events.
Sternguard look good but with they probably will only use one or two different ammos vs any opponent and will be like 28-30 points each.
Vanguard vets look to also be in that range. BA assault vets are 25 each and do not have the assault after deepstriking. They are similar to Harlies in cost and probably effectiveness.
Conversion Beamer at 72 inches looks nasty but that is pretty far away on a 6 by 4 board. With good 5th edition LOS blocking terrain on the board I would expect that effect very rarely. Now in Apoc where boards are bigger and terrain is lighter.
Ten point lascannons are only 5 points cheaper than currently and since you will need to keep 10 guys stationary and probably out of range. Before for the same cost you could get 2 5 man squads with 1 LC and 2 Plasmaguns in total so you have lost a plasmagun.
@anonymous 7:37: You have a girlfriend? and she plays warhammer? are you sure she exists? hm?
but serously, this sounds like a lot of fun for all those fluffy players out there, and for all y'all bitching about not having codices, SPACE WOLVES HAVEN'T HAD ONE FOR 9 YEARS! 9!
personally, i like the fluff i reckon it makes the game fun, and i remember reading the rumours and thinking that 5th ed was gonna be uber freaky hard and more complex than 4th ed, and we were all proven wrong there. seriously, just chill, smurfs will still cost heaps, tau will still be able to shoot the crap out of them before they get into combat, and most people won't have enough pocket money, let alone points for all those crazy metals to be released.
but i agree, chaos need more fluff, their codex had better be at least as big as this is rumoured to be..
Tbh, most of the stuff just looks quite cool - Although I'm didn't see an Iron Hands character in there which disappointed me slightly seeing as they've given some to non-first founding chapters. Sternguard and Vanguard look cool as does the master of the forge. The only things that concern me a littleare the WS of 6 on both the Chapter Master and the Captain, to my WS of 6 is the territory of 'non-human' type units, like eldar Autarchs or 'niddly creatures. All I can say is that my Chaos Lord/Daemon Prince will now be avoiding all 3++ sv., S6 Power Weapon wielding Marines Characters like the plague (or possibly not QUITE like that, being a nurgle player and all...).
What amazes me is the complete turn around GW did with their design philosophy here.
With the Dark Angels, Blood Angels, and Chaos books, they got rid of many options, abilities, wargear and units, and dumbed down and/or increased the cost of much of what remained.
The Chaos Icon system is the perfect example, where once there was a Mark that was bought for each model and did the same thing no matter what unit you put it on, now you have to pay for an Icon that costs the same no matter what the squad size, and can be removed to negate the benefit for the squad, and for some reason the basic power armored CSM's get far more benefit from being a Berserker than a Terminator, Lord or Biker does. A basic Berserker gets +1A, WS5, Fearless, and Furious Charge, but a Terminator Berserker only gets the +1A and loses it if his squads icon dies? Wtf?
Now GW turns around and gives SM's 7 brand new units in addition to a multitide of brand new and very powerful SC's, makes many existing units better (e.g. expanding capacity of Land Raiders and Drop Pods without *any* fluff justification, and *only* for vanilla SM's, *FREE* weapons for tac squads for the same price as DA/BA squads, etc)
I don't think the problem most people have is with SM's getting their new stuff, its the fact that SM's get all this new and better stuff after the last *three* marine books got gutted. Granted there were some problems with the 3.5 CSM codex, but the current SM codex is also plenty abuseable as well, why don't Space Marines get the same toning down and "streamlining" as the CSM's and Blood Angels?
so, according to the codici...
BA squads cost more to "offset" the free Death Company
DA squads cost more... well, cause GW hates them???
Now, if Codex SM squads are the same cost as the above two, they are then by default slightly more pricey than some unused "normal" marine squad.
At the same time, that pretty much negates the price offset for the other armies "penalties" for having specialised troops.
@Tim Weston
Congrats, you found the most dominant shooting unit in an ork army. I'll agree, lootas rock and I field them in the vast majority of games I play with my ork army.
But just because orks have this one unit that is good at shooting doesn't mean they outgun a space marine army. Firstly, keep in mind those orks are at a BS of 2, which means they'll only hit one third of the time.
On top of that, multiple Space Marine units are more than capable of dealing with the threat of those lootas, even if they are in a battle wagon. I'll just throw out a standard pattern Land Raider. Expected to be about as many points as a 15 strong Loota squad in a basic battlewagon, this machine will be able to take out such a foe without even fearing for its armor. Run a trial of three land raiders vs. three loota-wagons, and see what happens. And that's just one option. Take a look at the rumors and see what else space marines have available, and see that shooting is one of their strong points, especially with BS 4. Orks, on the other hand, lack range, BS, and a consistent weapon strength over 8. When it comes to shooting, Space Marines outgun orks.
They also outgun Tyranids. I'm not saying Nids (or orks) don't have shooting options. They have some good ones. But again, Space Marines have range, versatility, and strength over Nids in shooting. And yes, Nids overpower Marines in close combat. But not outgun.
The prior comment regarding the complete about-face in design philosophy sums up the issue I have with the new SM codex.
I can't wait to see what the designers do with the next codex or in 6 years when they get around to revisting the ones that were "simplified".
I can uderstand why CSM, DA and BA players are saying WTF???
"Ever feel like you've been cheated?"
@ I can uderstand why CSM, DA and BA players are saying WTF??? "Ever feel like you've been cheated?"
I must admit that I also am having these same sentiments in spite of how much I enjoy what GW has done with 40K the past year or so. It's almost impossible, no matter how positive you are about it in general, to not feel a bit cheated given this "new" Codex direction with the Space Marines, especially after the blandness of the last CSM book and the fun but less exciting DA and BA lists.
If this hasn't been repeated across a dozen different BoLS articles by a hundred different people then most of the people here seem to be lacking some sort of maturity....
THIS IS ALL JUST A RUMOUR!! The new SM Codex is still not released yet so read these rumours and dont freak out over them...
I'm a SM player and if some of the rumours are true then I can actually field a Command Squad on bikes, which I was building for a 5th Company Captain, and that's exciting for me, other than all the other new models and rules....
Also, if the cost of the units goes up then what the hell are you so worried about? I take less marines and you take more... are you missing that point??
For all the DA/BA/BT players... do you want to wait for the codex to come out and for GW to release FAQ's for your armies or whine about the new SM codex????
If the game is favourable for your army then you are all pumped up... and if it's not then you complain... come on people... it is just a game...
for the last time... these are all just rumours... and Warhammer 40000 is a gaming hobby... not your tenuous hold on reality....
and for SW players... you are getting a new codex in Dec/Jan so be happy!!! :) might even start SW then...
@ THIS IS ALL JUST A RUMOUR!!
Um, no it is not. Many people have seen the finished book now or spoken with people who have. Wake up, most of what you're reading now is accurate.
@ Anon, August 14, 2008 10:25 PM
Actually, DA/BA players were told that we would not be given an update, and that our codex's were made "with 5th edition in mind." LOL.
I thought vanguard were going to be awesome but looks like they got some major drawbacks...probavly costly...and its risky for them to assault in turn they deepstrike. Trying to deepstrike within 6" of an enemy so you can take a whack at them...not worth it?
@ anon
shooty orks
nob with a power claw
boy with big shoota
10 boys in a truck
truck has boarding plank and wrecking ball...
move 12, shoot 18... 20 shootas 8 big shoota's
four power claws at a vehicle within 2"
swipe once at a squad within 2"
don't get out of the wrecked truck and you have a 4+ cover save
sounds very shooting to me... and you thought i didn't read the ork codex
later, Tim Weston
@ Abhinav Jain
"Also, if the cost of the units goes up then what the hell are you so worried about? I take less marines and you take more... are you missing that point??"
For what it is worth, most everything (aside from Predator sponsons and Assault Cannons) is cheaper once you factor in all the mandatory Frag and Krak loads.
Marines are a beginners army, and this book exemplifies it in every way. I guess I'll have to pay 8 points/ battle sister, since that is what they're really worth. I won't cheat, but if any marine player brags if he beats me with the new marines.. yea..
We need a new Inquisition codex soon, as grey knights are a null point, and sisters of battle fair well, just need a point drop, and free frag and krak grenades.
I need a challenge, it's time to start an IG army!
Utsujin and the anon before him's posts raised a brief question in my mind. With everything seeming to get free frag/krak grenades, why the hell is GW even bothering to write grenades into the assault phase rules?
Seriously, they may as well just say infantry always fight in initiative order, and are always Strength 5/6/whatever against vehicles?
At least GW got rid of that mandatory 'veteran' sergeant. I was starting to get sick of there being only a 'veteran' version of something which didnt technically exist.
Well you can either look at it as getting a free veteran sargeant, and paying for the frag and krak grenades, or paying for the veteran sargeant by overall higher model cost and getting free frag and krak grenades.
I see your point tho, but alot of armies don't have them as basic, orks come to mind for one, even in the new codex. It seems to be Imperium, and chaos basically, and specialized units from other armies.
@ Anonymous Aug 15, 12:32pm
Nine whole years for them to touch on Space Puppies, huh? Wow....
Try being an Ork player who had to wait almost eleven years (like me). Try being a Dark Eldar player who most likely will be hitting the 12 year mark.
Overwhelmingly, all armies that aren't generic Space Marines have had long waits for new material. I have no sympathy, friend. In fact, I can almost disdainfully brush your argument off due to your option of simply playing the puppies by the new generic rules. An option, I should point out, that was not available to Ork and DE players.
Just my opinion....
worry about the now, not what might be.
the book is in print, but not a current 'dex. some of these things may be true, i won't know until i get the book and the FAQ for my DA.
one thing to remember the power gamers will shoot themselves in the foot buy using the uber choices over the real ones. they will no longer get anyone to play against and will have to resort to building balanced lists. especially true for tourneys.
as for Chaos, my undivided army still has lots of tricks yet to play......
have fun all
Overpowered! I hate 40k now! GW always pays so much attention to the SM!
way to show a little common sense people.
Until you have the book in hand, and playtest it for yourself, you just don't know if it will be overpowered or not.
As for GW showing all this attention to SMs, let me remind you that GW is a business, as someone already stated. That means they want to make money. Over half the 40k players play SMs, or have a SM army, so giving this dex, with all its nice, shiny, EXPENSIVE, models makes alot of business sense.
As far as powergaming goes, their will always be powergamers...always. I think this dex will help people play more fluffwise.
Just my rather long winded two cents.
"SPACE WOLVES HAVEN'T HAD ONE FOR 9 YEARS! 9!"
show me an Iron Warriors/ Alpha Legion/ Death Guard etc. Codex. and then I will let you complain
until then, no complaining. Just be glad you still have INVIDUAL chapters.
Individual*
The Emperor's Champion is now a Sad Panda....
with regards to those chaos chapters mentioned without codexes, they at least have unit choices don't they? that's something i guess.
i personally hope this list will create a mass revolt against SM by all the loyal (rather, hopefully soon to be xenos and traitor) gamers out there so we all have someone other than SM to fight against.
does it make sense to just release the codexes a little closer together? i mean what's the point of releasing something if it's going to be valid rules wie but then completely useless when the rest of the game is released?
ps Dawn of War II trailer on youtube is sweet as...
Huh....well, this looks overpowered, but thats been said for every codex since the 4th ed Nids.
Lets not get angry, scream and shout over rumours. Wait till the codex comes out, people start playing games with it, and the weaknesses get exposed.
And as someone who plays Guard, and always has, i've more scope to be annoyed than most...
Meh, i'm gonna look forward to beating all the new marine armies. "Taste my 3rd ed codex! Taste it! bwhaha!"
Ahem. ;)
Well, thelieutenant at least your codex isn't overpriced, and underpowered. such as my Demonhunter and Witch Hunter codexes.
Power-armoured super human geneticaly engineered mini rocket launcher weilding psychopaths get an upgrade huh? Jones, break out the flashlights and call up the reserves, time to squish the stuck-up astartes in new and interesting ways...
@ Utsujin
"Well, thelieutenant at least your codex isn't overpriced, and underpowered. such as my Demonhunter and Witch Hunter codexes."
Is that what the problem is? I just thought all the WH/DH gents I've played against sucked. Now I know the real issue... blame the codex.
;)
I can't wait to build a new Iron Hands army! I still love my Choas armies (worldeaters & the cleaved -Nurgle), and look forward to battling it out against the followers of the corpse god, I think I can still take'em! Anyway, nothing can beat my Tau army!:P (ducks for cover!)
@sixsystems
It could be a combination of both, but in particular with the demonhunters codex, most of their special rules are completely null and void and have no affect against demons what so ever, that is why they have a high point cost, and without those rules they should be around 20/model to be fair.
People who are beginners shouldn't play an army like witch hunters or demon hunters as they require more skills than most armies to win.
What really pisses us CSM players off:
-GW saying "oh yes streamlining is the way to go" for our codex then turn around and give the SMurfs all the goodies
-Yes, it makes perfect sense to give the less-than-10,000-year-old chapters the more-than-10,000-year-old weaponry
-Yes, an 800-year-old guy with some big hands and a glow-stick equals a 10,000-year-old guy who has two legendary weapons and the favour of all four Chaos Gods
-The power will all pan out if GW costs it right, but there are so many things they can cost wrong
-You get assault marine "veterans" who are so good that they can assault after deepstrike, but our 10,000-year-old raptors don't count as "veterans"
-It's been a thorn in our sides that our Chaos Lords/Sorcerers can't assault a normal squad w/powerfist without dying horribly, but now GW goes and hands out Eternal Warrior like it's a free sampling?
-Why the hell are they putting out so many 3++ saves? The only people who should have those are Primarchs, Lords of Change and people with those Eldar Shadowfields.
The players with the most grievances are the Emperor's Children players; who converted hundreds of sonic weapons on their predators, bikes, raptors, and terminators, and now all of those are useless.
Now the Undivided Legions (Iron Warriors, Alpha Legion, etc) can be better represented by this new SMurf codex. For example: Iron Warrior: Master of the Forge (Warsmith), ridiculously large amounts amounts of Dreads, Thunderfire cannons, Conversion Beamer.
Well, I'm glad GW followed through on their promise to make a Codex: CSM Legions, it seems they just called it Codex: Space Marines, must be a typo.
HAHA!!!!!!! FAUL XENOS! NOW YOU WILL DIE ALL!! FOR THE EMPEROR!!!!!!!!!!
Utsujin: You seem to be making two points about DH/WH...firstly that they are underpowered, secondly that they are not an inexperienced gamer's army. Theres a difference there.
I fully agree with the second point. they are a vet's army, but i'd argue with the first point.
When the Daemon codex came out, me, the Guardsman, started Grey Knights as a joke. Been playing them for 5 months now, been really fun. I don't really feel they're underpowered, they do horrible things to Tyranids, for example.
I played a game today against 'nids, and it was great fun watching his genestealers getting scythed down by psycannons, and my Eversor assassin(Fluffy II) taking down a carnifex.
I'll probably go back to playing Guard soon, but the Grey Knights were an enjoyable distraction for a few months. Yeah, maybe they aren't particularly competitive, but hey, last I heard, the game was for fun.
Certainly how i play anyway. ;)
Hey guys I just ordered the new space marine codex from GW's advance order section. I was wondering if anyone else has used the advanced ordering system before, and if so how early do you recieve the merchandise before it hits stores?
Even the Tac squad is BS.
So let me get this straight, SMs now get 9 Marines, and a Sarge for 165 pts
And they all have frag and krak? and they get a free flamer and Missile Launcher.
Shoot, now they are cheaper then Chaos Space Marines.
Well, they got a store copy in my local GW today (UK), along with a plastic drop pod (slightly taller than the FW one but about the same size, I had mine with me for comparison purely because I had my army with me) and the vanguard and sternguard boxes, which I got to ferret in (they were already busily painting the Black Reach minis which are also very nice). I'd taken my Silver Skulls in as I'd promised, and whilst the GW lads looked at my conversions, they let me ponder over new converions by looking at what we'll be able to take soon. After three hours I had plenty of ideas :)
Basically these rumours are spot on by and large. The only error I noted was vanguard can have twin lightning claws. Basically they can replace their bolt pistol and/or their chainsword. The option list includes lightning claw at +15, and thus they can buy too for +30 point, +15 each. It includes the usual, plasma pistol, thunder hammer etc. Just like sternguard can take as many combi-bolters, vanguard can take as many specialist close combat weapons as they like, but it will cost alot. 20 point each and 20 for jump packs, they'll add up to a lot very quickly. So yes, both are allowed a lot more toys than DA company veterans and BA veteran assault squads, but you have to pay for them.
The honour guard look great for converting (from their options list), and with the auxillary grenade launchers (they fire krak and frag grenades) and relic blades I can't wait to build some.
Book looks great, lots of painted examples from lots of codex chapters, and its 144 pages of loveliness. Roll on th 14th and Gamesday.
OH NO, MY LITTLE TOY SOLDIERS AREN'T THE SAME ANYMORE!!! (sad face)
Guys...really time to get your priorities straight.
So you can have a space marine command squad that has thunderhammer and stormshields along with a reroll to miss in combat and feel no pain?
Space Marine Commander on bike
Space Marine Command Squad with bikes thunder hammer stormshields , apothecary, chaplain, battlestandard.
So they have a 3 plus invulnerable, reroll misses in hand to hand combat, counter attack, feel no pain, fearless, and two attacks at str 8.
Interesting discussion here, but too much unnecessary panic...
Most games today are played between 1000 and 2000 points. Every Army has a maximum of 2 HQs. So there won't be 2 Vanguard Assault Veteran Squads and all special characters fielded in one army.
The only thing I really don't like about the new codex (or what it will be) is that you can now have Captain Lysander field a Ultramrines army. Well, his name will be changed to, let's say, Loosander - but still.
The new Codex will give players so many options that it will take forever to create an army list.
But just yesterday my unspectacular smurfs faced a imbalanced and utterly cheesy Chaos Army which was destroyed most triumphantly.
A fool with a tool is still a fool. And that's why SM Armies will never be default win armies.
Zaphod
i play tau and they will be screwed but soon our pulse rifles will be str 6 and our bs5 and great knarlocs in the codex and more than 2 troops choices 2 hq choices 4h support choices and bropably large blast str10 rail guns and all army will be equill in the world of pummelling each other that is 40k
Ironclads come with a meltagun in the siege hammer, shotties are strength 4. update if neccessary.
[QUOTE]Anonymous // August 26, 2008 7:58 PM
Even the Tac squad is BS.
So let me get this straight, SMs now get 9 Marines, and a Sarge for 165 pts
And they all have frag and krak? and they get a free flamer and Missile Launcher.
Shoot, now they are cheaper then Chaos Space Marines.
[/QUOTE]
Quit bitchin' without looking at the codex itself, by now most independant stockists of note and GW stores have a copy floating around as a primer for everyone for next month. If you look closely tacky marines are increased in points, they are indeed 16 points for each extra one, and the fact you HAVE to buy them in groups of 5 witha COMPULSORY Vet Sergeant aka a sergeant means that several abilities a number of people used like Oh I don't know, A Captain and the everyone uses his Ld of 10 are defunct now. In the right circumstances. The list looks balanced, you can no longer take as many marines as you could in the last edition in your armies. yes as a whole they have absolute bugger loads of optiopns, but to all you chaos players out there, remember this:
There was a MASSIVE amount of negative feedback to the Chaos Marine Codex release, they are no longer Veterans of 10 millenia, just stock standard marines, 'Ooh look a Chaos Marine is like a newly levelled space marine brother!' No, it blows ass they nuked the veteran skills of the Chaos Marines, but lets face it, at least GW woke up to the fact and have made Marines have all the options and stuff they should have, instead of having another massive amount of people turning around and saying how they feel jipped.
have a look at the codex, criticise it all you want, but the real way to critique it is to play some games with it.
Toodley pips,
Ram Rock Ed First.
I just have two comments...well two and a half.
First I would just like to say that I'm glad to see the "secondary" chapters getting some love. I know I was extremely disappointed in 4th ed because they took away the uniqueness of my Salamanders.
My next point an a half is that GW will do what it needs to in order to turn a profit...hence 5th ed much sooner than they originally planned. With this in mind I can see...in a WD maybe...GW posting rules for new special characters for the armies which have been redone already, (BT, DA, BA) with awesome rules and they will probably have a new model of the guy for you to purchase.
I SOOOO know where my Christmas money is going :)
the key to 5th ed is tactical flexibility. If points cost is a factor for marines AT ALL the power gamers everyone fears are gonna lose every game that ain't kill points.BTW anybody know how i can play IG in a kill point game without doing the catchan air cav or penal legion? Consistently losing by 4-6 kill points every time even if I knock the crap out of someone. Wouldn't want to try it against this new book either looks like, lol.(Hello tiny marine armies)
I'm looking forward to it personally yet still think that there is potential for unfair games until other dex's get released..around 2020 I would imagine for orkz :) Tho' a greenskin through and through my very first army was space marines and I want to go back, for nostalgia. I also like to be a little different and this new dex will allow that.
Company Cap'n, scouts and viola, one 10th Company army. One land speeder storm is purhaps iffy..but four? Along with bikes and stuff I rekon it will be pretty good.
Oh, and you want a broken codex? Try looking at the ork one, yes the newest. Snikrots unique ability is now longer unique, just allows you to choose .. which isn't that great. Warbuggy/killa kan squadrons have pointless upgrades like Riggers and armour plates AND stikk bombs (including the chukkaz) are now 75% useless as most orks will still fight last against most enemies in cover. There are exceptions, hence the 75% bit but I can't list 'em all.
Oh, and don't forget the (at first) confusing Twin-linked dakka gunz that didn't specify proppa if they were twin-linked and either S5 AP5 3 shots or S5 AP4 2 shots. How come pain boyz can't wield a gun? Mad Dok Grotsnik can. But, now matter how crummy they wrote it I still think..
Green iz best!
Waaaaaagh!!!
anyone bitching about sisters of battle hasn't read their book, and probably hasn't spent an extravagant amount of money on an all metal army