Goatboy’s 40k: “New” Imperial Knights Winners and Losers

monty-python-black-knight

Goatboy back and in charge again with a quick rundown of the new Knight Codex.  Let’s see who gets the thumbs up and thumbs down!

I am excited about the new book as they give me a unit that fits my play style completely as well as fixes the Knights for 7th edition by making them Lords of War.  As this book is pretty short on overall units/formations it is pretty easy to just go through the list and “review” them in my own limited viewpoint.  So without further thought – let’s just dive into the kiddie pool full of giant robots that don’t disguise themselves.

CODEXIMPERIALKNIGHTS

The Basic Codex Rules

First the big thing is that Knights are now Lords of War.  This is something I felt they needed as they basically acted like one during any game.  Still it does hurt the whole idea of creating a distinct competitive format with only one LoW allowed.  I am not sure if we should just make an exception for this codex or look at ways to lessen some of the impact of these LoW.  I think some changes to allow Look out Sir on 6 stomps of removing the whole removes from play and replace with a Strength 10 ap 1 blast might be in order to keep knights on the table.  I still haven’t seen a more then one list win an event yet so will see.  I also wonder if the Lance will either get an update (making everyone groan) or just get listed as non usable as it only specifies the old Knights.

The CAD has been resolved with needing to take 3 of these Knights to complete it.  The benefit of becoming Objective Secured seems pretty strong as well as getting a “Warlord” that can challenge.  This could be pretty interesting as if you have other options to throw into combat you could find a way to protect your big ole jerkface.  They also removed the whole – +1 to the Ion shield you got from having an upgraded Leader as well as the random rolls that could make all your guys better or worse.  Removing that is good because when the Admantine Lance rolled all 6’s and everyone was a 3++ it was a pain in the butt.

Warlord Traits are also tweaked as well and mostly they seem kind of Meh.  The Outflank option seems good but with a D3 roll to see what you get it feels like you could just screw yourself if you are so heavy with the Knight a Tude.  The reroll saves of 1 and adding an Extra Attack both seem pretty strong depending on the type of Knight list you are running.  Overall they are toned down which is fine as this book seems well within the lines of 7th instead of peeing on the line as they run past it like the Eldar do.

Finally we have relics and they all seem fine.  There are a few better ones but each seem decent if you have extra points.  The Banner could be helpful for any AM armies out there with rerolling of failed Morale, Pinning, and Fear checks.  I like the Helm that gives Rampage as I love the assault option Knight and this seems perfectly suited for that one.  The Upgraded Reaper Chainsword seems good as it gives you a reroll of a 1 in CCW as well as getting AP 1.  Gaining It Will Not Die seems good too as gaining back Hull Points is always frustrating to an opponent.  It does make you wonder if you lose 3 and then gain back enough do you still give your opponent 1 VP in those tournaments that have added that Escalation rule?  The Gauntlet seems ok and most likely not worth the points upgrade on the model.  Sanctuary seems interesting and more of a combo piece with one of the formations.  Again these are just going to be on guys if you have extra points left in building an army.

Knight Errant – 3 out of 5 80’s High Fives

I always liked this Knight as I thought any Knight should just be moving towards the enemy and not try to be a shooting monster.  This guy was the cheapest option so I always picked them.  Plus his gun give me more options to blow stuff up.  I still think this guy is over costed by at least 50 points when you compare it to some other big Lords of War (Wraith Jerk Hole Knight) but as a whole he is still good.  This guy gets the upgrades for the top like the others and can replace his Heavy Chubber with a Meltagun.  I don’t know if that swap is worth it as the big Thermal Gun does everything the Meltagun does and more.  The Carapace upgrades all seem too expensive but if you have points and want more Dakka the Stormspear Rocket Pod looks to be the best.

Knight Paladin – 3 out of 5 80’s Smoldering Looks

Again just like the Errant this guy was alright.  If I needed to save only a few points I went with Errants but if I had the freedom to use 15 extra points I would just throw in all Battle Cannons.  I think there is some thought on making him a backfield Dakka guy but one of the newer ones seems to just be better.  Still – this guy can do work as needed and if you need to save points and want a Dakka version or have a specific formation in mind – this guy can do work.

Knight Warden – 3.5 out of 5 80’s Crane Kicks

The upgrade of the weapon has me liking this guy a lot more plus he now has a lot more extra weapons for the same cost as a Paladin.  There is something about 12 shots with rending that has me excited.  It might do jack throughout the game but forcing things to either Jink (jetbikes) or just throwing a crap ton of wounds onto a big MC has me feeling will see this gun a lot in the future if events allow Knights.  This is the gun I have been waiting for and will finally see if the Avenger Gatling Cannon is good.

Knight Gallant – 4.5 out of 5 Popped Collars

This is the unit I am most excited about.  It is cheaper then all the others and finally focuses on what is probably the strongest for the Knights – getting involved in combat.  With one of the Lance Formations you even get it set up in a way that might make a full on rush list valid.  This guy has both Close Combat options giving you a starting 4 attacks with the option of going at Initiative 4 or having a chance to throw something off your lawn.  I have a feeling this guy might see the most Carapace upgrades if you needed more Dakka options.  But right now I can see 3 Gallant lists mixed with some of the other Imperial options to create a rough rush list.  Look for some armylists at the bottom of this.

Knight Crusader – 4 out of 5 Manic Pixie Girls

Here is the most expensive of the Knight units and maybe the best “shooting” option to finally make a sit back and fire knight worth it.  As is this guy is going to throw out 2 Battle Cannon templates, 12 Bigger Boltgun shots, 6 Chubber shots, and finally if you are in range some flamer action to light up your night.  Heck if you add some Carapace options on top you’ve got a rough gun robot.  As a Super Heavy Walker it still has smash so it has no D in close Combat but it still comes at you with 3 AP 2 hits that are Strength 10.  That is nothing to sneeze at and in full Knight armies this might be the go to back field option.

After this we have formations which will probably be the meat and potatoes of army lists.  They give some good extra rules that don’t feel nearly as soul crushing as the Admantine Lance did.  They feel “fair” for the majority of 7th edition.  I expect Knight lists to be a bit of a foil to some of the Necron lists especially if events limit ranged D.

Imperial_Knights_Heraldry

Knight Formations

Formation: Exalted Court – 3.5 of out of 5 New Cokes – more if you are just playing knights.

5 Knights so just expect this and no allies. – If you are just paying a Straight Knight Army this is the one to expect.

Benefits: You get a super character that gets +1 to his Ion Shield save and gives a good combo with the Sanctuary Heirloom.  This guy also gets +2 to his WS and BS while all the others become characters and get +1 to their WS and BS.  All other knights get access to Heirlooms as well so if you want to do a bunch of cool character Knights this is it.

List Idea – 2 Knight Crusaders plus 3 Knight Gallants.  One of the Gallants is your leader with Sanctuary.  This sits at 1845 so it is doable for most events.  Still – I think the Knights work so much better as an Ally/Main CAD.

Formation: Baronial Court – 3.5 out of 5 Pop Rocks

3-5 Knights of any Kind.  This might be the new Admantine Lance option for those wanting more utility in their Knight Ally/CAD.

Benefits: One Knight is the Baron and becomes the leader.  As long as One Knight is within 6″ of another Knight they both get +1 to their Front Ion Shield.  This seems like a fix for the Admantine Lance so I am guessing that Formation might go the way of the dodo.  The other piece of hotness is that these Knights can now fire Overwatch and Counter Charge if they are within 12 inches of the Baron.

List Idea – Most likely 3 Knights using 2 Crusaders with one Gallant.  This way you have an assault option and the 2 Wardens can stay back providing covering fire.  The Baron could be the Gallant and utilize the Nameless Warrior Helmet.  From there Skitarri could be a good Ally or just using Marines and Grav to help ensure the Gallant can strike first or at the same time in combat thru some of the other big monsters.

Formation: Tripartite Lance – 4 out of 5 Grape Bubble Tapes – The Cute Formation with 1 of each of the new Knights

Benefits: This whole thing is one giant unit so as a stay away from me option it might be good.  Heck who wants to charge 3 Knights instead of just one?  This is where the power for this Lance will be as they can shoot at just about everything on the field and thus charge whatever they want.  As is you have 2 Avenger Boltgun cannons, 2 Battle Cannon shots, 4 Chubber Guns, 7 D Close Combat Attacks, 3 Str 10 Ap 2 Close Combat Attacks, and up to 9 stomps.  Each Knight gives the unit something good as well with one reducing cover saves by 1, giving D3 Hammer of Wrath Attacks and everything gaining Twin Linked shooting.

List Idea – Go ahead and upgrade them all with Carapace weapons to get even more shooting.  This comes out to 1245 points and one kind of nasty Deathstar doom group.  And man once things go boom this will cover a lot of the table top in nonsense.  This could be an interesting formation that is both different and powerful.

Formation: Gallant Lance – 4.5 out of 5 Deep Thoughts – 3 Knight Gallants

Benefits: Each Gallant gains Rage and Crusader plus they can reroll failed charge distances.  I love this formation as I am all about the cheapest Knight.  These 3 guys can be a huge benefit to a static army as you push forward with them and keep your opponent on the back pedal.  I like models that have distinct purposes and 3 Close Combat Monsters sounds great.  If only they made Chaos Knights and used this formation type as a Khorne Death Murder Ball.

List Idea – 3 of these with default options plus Flesh Tearers CAD and Sentinels of Terra Ally.  1 Sang Priest, 1 BA Scout, 2 FA Drop Pods, 1 Lvl 2 Libbie, 1 Elite Centurion Dev with Grav, 1 Heavy Centurion Dev with Grav, and 1 Scouts squad.  Mix, repeat and probably lose some friends.  If the new SM book gives us FA drop pods and keeps Dev Centurions good then expect a 2 Source Monster.

Formation: Skyreaper Lance – 2 out of 5 Where’s the Beef T-Shirts – 3 Knights of any type with the Autocannon Carapace upgrade each

Benefits: Ugh this one isn’t any good.  Sure it is cut you can reroll failed to wound rolls on flying MC’s and penetrating/glancing hits on Flyers but when was the last time you were really worried about.  Sure those pesky Hive Tyrants are going to be a pain but Knights suck for them most of the time and with the upgrade Avenger gun you don’t care nearly as much.

List Idea – No.

Welp that is it for the Knight book.  I don’t think we needed a new book but I know I needed the new Knights.  It might have just been better to release these in a White Dwarf or in a White Dwarf Visions.  Still it does make me want to make up some new Knights.  Right now the plan is to get 3 of them and magnetize everything that way I can play whatever I want.  I am still unsure what House I want to do as making Chaos Knights again isn’t nearly as exciting.  I think painting up some Necrons in normal non chaos ways might have made me want to paint some things normal again.  Will see.  Still overall I am exited and hope I get to play these new Knights in upcoming events.

What do you think of the new codex? Can the Knights finally stand upon their own as a faction?

  • Ben Cromwell

    For sure buddy the Gallant’s are sweet

  • Marky

    Winners – people with lords cash who like big robots
    losers – people with low ceilings or tall games tables and people who like 28mm games and models.

    • Ben Cromwell

      You do know that the Knights are 28mm Models right

      • Marky

        They are 28mm scale, they are not 28mm models.

        • crevab

          I too hate Terminators and Grots. I mean, look at them all being the wrong size

          • Marky

            Silly me, thinking my fellow wargamers would choose to see the (I thought) obvious meaning behind what I said rather than get pedantic about 5mm 🙂

          • Jet Voidweller

            honestly you are just complaining and that is dumb and not constructive. I have beaten them taking no LoW or Str D. so you know, try a little harder I suppose.

          • Or just be a better person and not instantly go to the most negative opinion u can.

          • BrianDavion

            yup, hell my knight rarely survives games

          • Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahhahahahhahahahahahhah. This is BaLs dude. People argue just so theu can argue.

        • So…no Terminators, Tanks, speeders, walkers, Battlesuits, Monstrous Creatures, Bikes, Jetbikes…

          So…JUST base infantry?

      • Singular

        so what?

        If you’d had them as smaller scale-miniatures, so that Imperial Knights, Wraithknights, Riptides, Bloodthirsters, etc.. come out to about 28mm height, and play them with the current 40K rules ignoring “smaller” stuff, it’s a (fairly convoluted) skirmish game.

        As it is, it’s quickly turning into a (fairly convoluted) skirmish game with oversized miniatures.

        • Marky

          Space marine / epic works great for knight battles IMO. I don’t like miniatures that are not what I think of as miniature.

    • V10_Rob

      Couldn’t resist…

    • Lewis Everitt

      I also think it’s a shame that the only viable way to run a large monsters list is with something like knights, what are monstrous creatures now?Other than flying around being boring. They’re largely useless with the current rules and points cost, and I think that’s entirely deliberate. I own lots of greater daemons and daemon princes that will collect dust for some time now.

    • Bayne MacGregor

      I like 28mm games and models. I also am seriously disabled and now can rarely play the huge Tyranid Swarm i used since 2nd ed (1st ed i played Genestealer Cult/Invasion Force and put a 60 Genestealer force on the table on occasion in 2nd ed). When my symptoms are bad moving 50 or even 30 models can be too much. Moving 5 knights or 1 Knight and a tiny Taghmata Omnissiah force of 10 models hurts less and allows me to play gamed when i otherwise would miss out.

      They haven’t broken our games, i’ve lost and won at a similar ratio as before just less on casualties and more on table and objective coverage.

    • Deathwing

      The other people that replied are idiots.
      I have a sense of humor as well as a brain and so found your post funny Marky.

  • Orangecoke

    I have two of the old Knights and the previous codex (old Knights aren’t assembled yet). The new Knights being superior and new codex being needed both make me feel like the loser in this scenario.

    • i just sold my old knight codex today actually. i was kind of miffed about a codex having a one year lifespan.

      • crevab

        At least this new book hopefully won’t need excessive FAQing from a edition change a month after release

      • Orangecoke

        I’m stuck with the digital one. Definitely feels like a cash grab release to have a new codex barely a year later. GW is really brazen lol.

        • TweetleBeetle

          If it’s a bad business idea/bad for consumers, it can’t be a “cash grab.”

          Jeepers I’d wish that phrase would just die since it doesn’t apply at all to these discussions.

          • Orangecoke

            I rarely use it, but in this case it seems appropriate. Once they realized how popular the first Knights release was they cranked out another one a year later, adding and modifying rules to create the need for buying another codex and creating new Knight variants with only the need to create one new sprue. This feels very pro-bottom line and not pro customer.

          • wibbling

            “… Once they realized how popular the first Knights …”

            You’ve confused yourself: Games Workshop produce a popular kit and sell lots of it, so they adapt it and make more.

            That is exactly what customers want and it is exactly what GW want. To sell things people will buy in droves. Credit to them. I love the Imperial Knights. Playing games with them is a blast.

          • An_Enemy

            Replying to the guy that replied to your alternate profile? Smooth.

          • vlad78

            No, once they realized how knights were popular, they made the initial product (released with only two units available) obsolete as soon as possible to push people to artificially buy more.

            Now within the game the only counters are the latest units of other codicies.
            GW is mixing codex creep with unit creep instead of trying to make the game more interesting and balanced.

            This is not a good business practice in the long run.

            Why would I buy a new codex if I have reasons to think it’ll be obsolete within the year? Better to download it for free.

            Why would I stay loyal to a company which is not dedicated to sell products of quality for the money I pay?

          • David Leimbach

            How is the awesome knight I bought and built obsolete?

          • Tesq

            it’s not you can actually use other carapace wepon you do not use buy your second kit on it. I agree is money grab move btw, but it’s not the worst and was done correctly at least if i buy 1 new knight i can still have things to update the old one

      • Aezeal

        Someone actually bought the old codex from you?

        • Indeed. There are people that like to collect all of the books and getting them used is much cheaper. I also sold my eldar and iyanden codex that was outdated by the craftworld codex this weekend.

      • Spacefrisian

        Even more when you realize they released the rules of those knights in a White Dwarf, like they did with the new ones as well.

      • Bayne MacGregor

        Better that than to have to play for an entire edition using one designed for the previous edition only to get the new book and have editions change on you again. Having the release order shift is actually more fair even if it means sometimes longer or shorter viability of a book.

        • I don’t think the knight codex (which didn’t have much content to begin with) was that bad off to warrant scrapping it entirely.

          I’ll be sitting 40k out for a while. I am not a fan of having to spend a few hundred dollars every couple years for new rules.

          • Necky

            its cheaper than Magic MTG

          • I’m not disputing that. Its also cheaper than a new gaming PC, a set of combat armor, and a Maserati.

            Having useless books on my bookshelf is something I am wary of since space is limited on it. Having to recycle books at this pace is not acceptable to me for that reason primarily.

          • Necky

            i have my books from 2002. im OK with the old books taking up space on my shelf. i love the old chapter approved book, or my 3rd ed chaos book. i wouldnt sell my iyanden supplement, or my Warzone: Valedor book for anything. I’m an Iyanden fanatic.

          • Thats awesome 🙂 I don’t have the space to keep all of my old books though. I have a few things from back then, the old undead book, the old chaos 5th edition fantasy book, and a few 6th ed fantasy books.

          • Necky

            yeah, 5th edition undead book was my first buy along with some skeletons from back then(the skinny ones)!! i don’t know that i have a huge collection of old books, but its definitely a sizable amount. it is contained in a bookshelf about 4′ tall and 5′ wide. but i also have a lot of black library books, and that contributes. I’m a big Horus Heresy fan, as well as other trilogies.

            while I’m upset with how hard it is to “keep up” with the release state(and meta), it feels good to just “let it go”. i buy what i want and don’t buy what i don’t want. I’m actually very very glad that fantasy has been dead, because i don’t have to buy for that game anymore. i haven’t even unwrapped the Khaine book for elves for end-times.

          • Bayne MacGregor

            But this is what 40k and Fantasy have always been like. Even before 2nd ed 40k we had the radical change to the rules from the Vehicle Book and Wargear Book which may as well have been a new edition (we called it one back then).

            And this is also true of most games that are still around and still in print and still making new products years later. There are exceptions but most games end up in an edition cycle.

            Of course you don’t have to move forward if you aren’t a competition gamer. I still play older editions of games with friends, i’m still running 2nd Ed AD&D and 5th Ed Call of Cthulhu. I even played several games of 2nd ed 40k this year (Ah the joy of Genestealers that match their reputation!)

            The new Knight Codex mainly added new things anyway.

            I note it also has different background material, not invalidating the other just some different highlights added on the timeline and others now absent. Which is usually the case with every codex update.

            So older books are often good as a background resource from the Tyranid Fleets that turned up early and may have fought the Emperor and made Catachan into a Deathworld in an older Tyranid codex to the Knight that fought Wraithknights even after it’s pilot was slain by an Eldar Sniper, the dead fighting the dead, which looks to be absent from the new codex while other material is added.

          • It hasn’t always been like that. When I started with undead fantasy they pulled this crap. The vampire counts book was valid for all of a few months before 6th dropped. That was the last time a book had this short of a lifespan.

            Its been many years since they went back to this approach of releasing a book and then invalidating it right away. Hell they did it with a whole edition of 40k.

          • Bayne MacGregor

            Huh? EVERY last codex suffers to a significant extent when the next edition hits.

            My Dark Angel playing friend had to deal with a sub-par codex for AGES because it hit at the end of an edition and the general marine dex that came out not long after was so much better!

            And this codex is mainly an update. Paladins and Errants just have extra options they can still run like they did. Sure the Seneschal rules are different but that’s not such a big deal, the formations can produce the same result, so it’s not like there was a giant nerfing where your opponents have good reason to object to you using the older book.

            Unless someone absolutely needs to min/max at all costs or is a tournament gamer it should be still quite possible to keep using the old book successfully just like 2 weeks ago.

          • I think thats being a little pedantic. Of course an army book one day gets invalidated. Im not disputing that.

            Im talking about a book that had a year lifespan. Thats the part that is not acceptable to me. And with the eldar as well.

            One does not need to be a powergaming twink to need to use the latest book either. That is ultimately on the group you play with and store.

            If your group plays at the gw store, you may not be allowed to use an older book, for example.

          • Bayne MacGregor

            But a book like the Dark Angel one was in many ways invalidated by the new edition and the new general marine codex! Many dark angel players found they had to switch to making their armies with the general marine codex. Many literally wanted an update to their codex inside a year!

            It’s still the case that as soon as a new edition comes out all codices for previous editions are devalued.

            Good point about the GW store, as i’m 5 hours travel away from one i forget that some people might do a fair bit of their gaming there. But then that’s a consequence of gaming in a GW store where all manner of extra restrictions are applied in order to sell stuff. I expect most people still play in their homes, at friends places and at independent stores and clubs but for those that do there’s all sorts of things to deal with like anti-competition bans on alternate manufacturer figures and parts and things like that. Playing there is quite a compromise.

          • Our big tournament store in town won’t let you use past books either, you have to use the current book. So if you play there (an independent club) you also have to buy the latest book when they drop, its not just the GW store.

            Dark Angels players wanted a new book because their book didn’t have any OP builds like the other books have. While thats understandable that they want a competitive book, its still not the same as being ok with all of the books having a year or so lifespan before needing a new one.

            Had the Dark Angels book had broken OP builds that the players wanted they’d have been annoyed with a new DA book a year later as well.

          • Bayne MacGregor

            No the Dark Angel players i knew were upset that their codex was UNDER powered in the new edition. That a Ravenwing army could be better made with the new Space Marine Codex than with the Dark Angel codex. It wasn’t about OP. The main DA player i knew at the time was and is one of the fairest least power-gaming players i know. When i want a good fair game they are the player i go to. They were the one i chose as the main playtester for my team when we playtested Retro Raygun for Hydra Miniatures and they provided tons of quality work.

            As for the Knights codex many Knight players had been complaining about the lack of a Skyfire weapon so there was some call for an update. Others had been complaining about the missing Knight Types from Epic and the change of close combat weapon on the Errant with many people scratch-building powerfists for it. Some certainly wanted datacards for the Knights.

            As a Knight army player myself I am happy with the new book from what i have read of my copy so far. I’m much happier about it than i was with the last Tyranid Codex (Till Knights i played Tyranids since 2nd edition and before that i played Genestealer Invasion Force/Cult in 1st ed and early 2nd ed) and while i love the Shield of Baal stuff having to have the codex fixed by the Shield of Baal Leviathan book was far more annoying to me.

            As for the store well that’s tournament oriented as you mentioned. And it makes sense for competitive play that the latest rules be used.

            However if the club only caters for competitive play that’s missing out a huge amount of 40k and not catering to narrative players. It’d be worth pushing them to have narrative gaming nights where fluff-based armies, alternate game modes (apocalypse, planetstrike, cityfight, kill-team etc), campaign sets, planetary empires campaigns, specialist games like Necromunda, Mordheim, Epic, Space Hulk and Battlefleet Gothic, fan-made updates of older material (Genestealer Cults, Eldar Exodites, Eldar Corsairs, Zoats, Slann, Squats etc) and even older editions could be played. Cause they are clearly missing out on a ton of fun.

          • That sounds like the lament of all dark angels players since 3rd edition 😉

            The point of the store being you don’t always have the option of using an older book if the people you play with won’t allow it; for someone like me – I don’t have a lot of spare room on my shelves for books that I cannot use so having books with such a short life span is troublesome.

          • Bayne MacGregor

            I expect it won’t be typical. The order of releases changes a fair bit each edition and 40k has been fast-rtracked through lately giving warhammer a rest while they set up whatever 9th will turn out to be. And if the Heresy support replacing LOTR/Hobbit is correct then 30k may also contribute to a 40k slowdown.

    • Agent OfBolas

      Welcome in GW policy.

  • Malthrak

    Can we not use the hilariously undercosted Wraithknight as a basis of comparison for determining if something is overcosted?

    As for judgements of the formations, it’s hard to see where any are bad, not paying for any of the special abilities they get, and some are absolutely just as busted as the Adamantine Lance.

    • TweetleBeetle

      Well, and the Wraithknight isn’t THAT good. Grav Space Marines just rofl-stomp them; Deathmarks poke them off the board every time; they don’t kill nearly as much in the shooting phase as these new Imperials can…

      If the last few codices are any indication, the WK will be costed appropriately within 3 months.

      • Malthrak

        Nobody is buying the idea that the Wraithknight is anything but absurdly undercosted. Just because hardcounters exist doesn’t mean it can’t still be broken, particularly when those hardcounters are specific to certain armies and often (like Deathmarks) aren’t super common units.

        Even Grav isn’t *that* scary to a Wraithknight, rather, it’s one specific Grav equipped unit that’s a hardcounter to Wraithknights, Gravcents, and they’re a hardcounter to just about *everything*. Outside of Grav Centurions, there’s nothing with Grav weapons generating the kind off volume of fire to deal with a Wraithknight (on average, needing something like ~20-21 BS4 shots).

        • benn grimm

          The problem with D-weapons, or stomp, or grav, is pretty much the same problem; too much easy ap2 or removed from play without a save, too much certainty of eliminating what are (2 plus save, av14 etc etc models) also the most expensive units in the game. It makes those units a lot harder to cost as a result and leads to codex creep and an arms race, where the less popular armies are just left out in the cold.

          You see your Cent-star you just got into position to bring down my Wraithknight? Watch them disappear in one go thanks to my D-Scythe WG…. oh you have a crazy hard counter to that? Well, I have a Revenant…and so it goes, it feels a bit like taking part in an ongoing RPG with ‘that guy’ as GM…utterly without point…

          • Tesq

            CSM have problem bring vp2 otf and remain cheap, that’s why a 290 strenght D it’s an heresy even for an heretic

          • benn grimm

            Heresy for a heretic, lol, I think CSM’s should have Knights and tbh, they should be even better, due to daemon possession, tentacles and such, but more likely to lose it and go a bit ‘chaotic’ maybe a few charts to roll on, that sort of thing… 😉

        • Majere613

          There’s plenty more than Grav Cents. Anyone running a White Scars list, for example, will usually have a couple of Grav Guns and possibly a combi-grav in their units, which is enough shots in one unit to do the job on a good roll, and they’re going to have several of those units. Then there’s drop-podding combi-grav Sternguard who can do it with some ease.
          Then there’s Force. GK terminators with a couple of Daemonhammers with Force and Hammerhand will, at worst, DKO the thing. Hit it with Enfeeble and you can even take wounds off it with Bolters whilst Lascannons and Missile Launchers become a real threat to it.
          Sure, Wraithknights might lead to people having to look again at their army composition, but that’s hardly anything new.

          • Malthrak

            White Scars Bikers are going to have to fail to miss entirely and fail to wound entirely, (not just a “good roll” but an incredibly unlikely roll) for a single unit to kill a Wraithknight assuming two Grav guns and a Combi-Grav, and the WK have to pass its FNP on exactly average odds or worse. Hardly a likely scenario. They’ve also got to within 18″ without getting shot to pieces.

            A full unit of Sternguard with Combi-Gravs might just barely average a kill on a WK, but that’s also a unit costing 70pts more than a WK at a minimum, and a bad scatter roll will leave them out of that 9″ Salvo “movement” range.

            Again, not saying that WK’s *can’t* be killed. Just that most of these counters are much more variable and less reliable than they’re made out to be (good luck getting GKT’s into combat with a WK that doesn’t want to be stuck in), and aren’t necessarily available to most armies.

      • vlad78

        So the only good counters to knights are other knights or GW brand new units and one of them being the horrible and ridiculous centurions.

        Well done GW.

        The new knight minis are beautiful, but they are much too expensive, broken and the game they are made for is just absurd and poorly designed.

        • Pascalnz

          yeah, cause fire dragons and falcons are brand spanking new sculpts ;P[there’s more obviously, but their the oldest cults I could come up with:)]

        • ChubToad

          Wow, so much hate for the Knights. Seems they did something bad to your family or something. Relax, they´re only toys.

      • Crablezworth

        I needed a laugh

  • Nocturus

    How do the Forge World Knights fit in with the new codex? Are they still usable?

    • crevab

      There’s no mention of them in the book (unsurprisingly), but I’d doubt there’s any changes. It’s still Codex: Imperial Knights

      • Tesq

        they choose to not answer, they reply that what gw wrote they weren’t informed about so they don’t know how put it and becouse they fear to give something to powerfull to a alredy problematic codex they decide to wait/see and then faq later ( probably when chaos knight from FW will exit next year)

    • Koonitz

      Many formations state the restrictions on what Knights to take are “# Knights (of any type)”. Therefore, you may take a Forge World Knight in these formations.

      • Nocturus

        Thank you. I was running a list with 2 FW Knights and one of the standard ones, does one of the three man formations work with this?

        • georgelabour

          Most of the detachments and formations should work aside from the gallant, skypreaper and tripartite lances which all require specific models or upgrades.

          However keep in mind that currently the FW knights also have a rule sayin that you can only field them if there are at least as many or knights of a different style.

          E.G: If you want to field two Castigators you need two models of some other knight type which CAN other forge world knights.

          So a standard knight detachment could be one castigator, one Acheron, and one Magaeras. Or an exalted court could be those 3, plus an acheron and a crusader.

          P.S: I think the Stryix is Horus Heresy only.

          • David Schrier

            The Styrix is HH atm. mainly the main gun.

      • Aezeal

        Wraith Knights?

        • georgelabour

          Rules also say they must have the imperial knights faction.

  • georgelabour

    NOTED ERROR: On the Crusader the stock weapon is a Thermal cannon with a Battle cannon and stubber being an upgrade.

    ERROR 2: Tripartied lance only gives twin linked on blast weapons. So the rocket pod, thermal cannon, and battle cannon are really the only weapons in the codex to benefit.

    HOWEVER: Most formations and the 2 detachments specifically say you can use any imperial knight in them. So it should be easy to plug and play the FW knights in there easily enough with the exception of the formations that require specific types. E.G: Gallant, tripartite lance, etc.

    So….exalted court full of Castigators, lancers, and Acherons anyone?

    • Pascalnz

      you can get lancer , castigator and acheron with 2 glaanats for 1845:)

      • georgelabour

        Sounds like a good Baronial court then.

      • wibbling

        glaanats?

        • Pascalnz

          The best kind of spell check error 🙂

  • TweetleBeetle

    There’s also the non-CAD detachment of just 1 Knight mandatory, and 2 others listed as “optional.” That basically unlocks them for any army.

    • georgelabour

      It can also let you sneak in more knights if you take one of the other formations like the gallant lance, but need a fourth knight to round out the point.

  • Pascalnz

    The Tripartite lance is badass when allied with Loth and invisibilty:).. oh dear

  • Tesq

    like’s 2 errors.

    -Smash make only 1 attack s10 not it half, it got nerfed in 7th
    -look out sir can ALWAYS be taken unleass in challenge becouse it’s a “wouds re-allocation metod” as explained better in 6th…..it’s no a saving, it’ do not prevent wouds he move it somewhere else.
    When rule for D weapons point : “no save of any kind” refer to FNP and invulnerable save.

    • Pascalnz

      Uh, d weapons are different to stomp attacks. There is no wound to look out for if you get sixed by a stomp, it’s just removed from play.

      • Tesq

        my bad,i tought about d weapons and not stomp.

      • Andrew Thomas

        1 time in 6. 2/3rds of the time, it’s just a strength 6, AP 4 hit, and usually, your unit still gets their Close Combat attacks before that even happens.

        • Pascalnz

          are you replying to me?, just seems odd, I was talking about look out sir mechanics in regards to 6s on Ds or stomps, not how good or likely they were

  • Marshall

    I like the idea of Knights. I accept rule of cool.

    I totally accept one as a LOW.

    But i have difficulty accepting them as an army.. Especially now they have access to Obj Sec and Anti Air .

    How can fielding an army of superheavies be fair against anyone else that makes a true allcomers list…

    How are they supposed to play against you – When half their list can’t even harm you…. My standard ork list would have 20 gretchin, 55 ork boys, 2 painboys, 3 meks, a total of 700 points

    So in my standard all comers ork List… Units totalling 700 points – can’t even take a hullpoint off one of these guys….

    IMHO thats just not Fun… On either side to play such a one sided game.

    Sure given advanced warning you can taylor a list to stand a chance… but thats just not the kind of games ill play as a standard.

    So you get to play 1500 points of superheavy – Vs 800 points of other stuff….. And call that a fun game?

    • Pascalnz

      At 1500 it’s four units at best. It’s all about capping objectives to win, not just about killing your opponent. I’ve won many a game with just one squad left. Most armies only have a certain amount of points that can hurt armour 13 things,
      Would you then hate an all furioso dread army?

      It really doesn’t sound like you’ve played many games vs. all knight armies. Sure it’s not something you want to play with or against all the time but it is a wild and exciting ride…. Enjoy it when you get the chance, I know I do 🙂

      • Marshall

        can a full furisio dread army be battleforged..

        Um no…

        So why are we comparing against them again??

        My point is now that knights have Obj secured.

        You can’t just go for outmanouvering them for points and hunkering down.

        A competent knights player will dictate the objective locations he wants…

        • Pascalnz

          you mentioned obsesc in passing and had a good long whine about how a chunk of your army couldn’t affect them.
          you can have an army of 8 dreads including 7 furiouso chassis 1 terminator libby and 13 drop pods including 8 lucius pods just fine in a bound list. I can tell you right now you’d wish you were playing a knight list after facing that.

          How many games vs a 5 or 4 knight list have you ever played?

          I’ve played heaps, they generally lose the second game anyone plays vs them. All knight lists have major major weaknesses.

          Massive unfounded pessimism will lose you so many games, the more you think about “how unfair/broken /wrong/” something is instead of, Ohhh lets see what I can do, the less your head is in the game.

          • Marshall

            Each to their own – Now with access to Obj secured i dont think a true allcomers list that is balanced has a fair chance when 700 points of your list cant even cause a hullpoint of damage.

            Thats my opinion

            I’m personally going to continue banning Imperial Knights list from any events my local club runs…

          • Pascalnz

            how many games have you played vs them, seriously, try some.

        • Andrew Thomas

          Yes. They can. Battleforged isn’t Objective Secured, it’s obeying a FOC or using Formations. And they can’t contest objectives and fire Overwatch at the same time, so just about any unit with equal or better WS can grenade them with impunity, or hold them long enough to score by default.

    • Tesq

      you are playing a wrong list, take tankbustas, (dakka tank hunters s8 vp3 hits), also bring some of your new Mek gun d6+4 vp2 are really good vs knight and grey knight, also you can use gretch as toughnes 7 ablative wouds, put all behind and aegis and enjoy gretch t7 4+ cover, dont use gretch as troop they are useless. Bring 3 units of boyz and 1 warboos with da lucky stick, awsome in cc. Then take 1 mek and 1 big meck and put em in units topgheter with nob so that they can accept challenge you would not like.
      and every units have a power claw 2 champ and bosspole. Also bomber drop some good vp2 and you know what? a 6 make it 2x!

      HQ(160)
      Warboss 130pt
      -Mega-armour, cybork body, Da Lucky stikk, (gift)
      Big Mek 30pt
      Mek 15pt

      Troops:(435)
      Boyz x20: 135pt
      -nob, bosspole
      Boyz x20: 150pt
      -nob, bosspole, power claw
      Boyz x20: 150pt
      -nob, bosspole, powerclaw

      Elites:(585)
      Tankbustas x15: 195pt
      -rokkit launcha x15
      Tankbustas x15: 195pt
      -rokkit launcha x15
      Tankbustas x15: 195pt
      -rokkit launcha x15

      Fast attack:(230)
      Burna bomber: 115pt
      Burna bomber: 115pt

      Heavy:(366)
      Mek Gunz x4: 132pt
      additiona gretchin x2, ammo runt x1
      Mek Gunz x4: 132pt
      additiona gretchin x2, ammo runt x1
      Mek Gunz x4: 132pt
      additiona gretchin x2, ammo runt x1

      Stronghold:(50)
      Aegis defense line :50pt

      • Interesting list, thanks!

      • Pascalnz

        thanks for the orc stuff:)

      • Marshall

        This is a joke right? or a troll move..

        I tell you im all about making “allcomers” lists.

        And you tell me – Im doing it wrong because i haven’t made a taylored list like you just did….

    • georgelabour

      As my opponents who play Tau, Eldar, Orks, Space Marines, and Astra Militarum have learned.

      You don’t need to table the other guys army to win the game. Those things called objectives are in fact a fare more efficient way to do it.

      Any army with access to bikes or jetbikes or hover capable fliers can really put a crimp in a knight army’s style especially since losing a single knight can cut an IK’s strength by up to a third.

      My Tyrannid playing opponent managed to pull a tie off against me by just swamping me in gaunts, and that was only the fourth game of 40k he’d ever played.

      • Marshall

        Totally agree especially in maelstrom.

        I believe a standard allcomers list had some chance against the old knights for thsi very reason.

        But now that you can have a knight stood ontop of 4 out of 6 objectives.. all Obj secured. And move quick enough to get to anyone they want.

        You won’t be able to do this against a competent player. who spends his irst turn / 2 jsut taking out what you have that can hurt him…

        • georgelabour

          Just remember they have to take the detachment that gives them that ability. It’s not an inherent trait of the unit.

          If they for example take an exalted court for the stat boosts then they don’t get Objective secured.

          Personally I see objective secured as a tactical trap similar to the adamantine lance’s special rules. See noth tempt you with bonuses that can really cost you by limiting that mobility and close combat potential that is what makes the knights so intimidating en masse. Unless you’re running multiple crusaders and your opponent lacks long range anti tank you need to get in on top of him and rip out his guts before weight of numbers lets them pull off a victory.

          OTOH I haven’t played with the new codex yet so my opinion may change after a few games.

      • Marshall

        BUT now if u have obj secured and sit on your objectives – They can;t take them from you….

  • Aezeal

    is the knight errant overcosted.. or the WK undercosted?

    • Singular

      Probably both undercosted, compared to things like Stompas, Lord of Skulls, etc..

      Wraithknight only more so.

      • Tesq

        knights are balanced, a single melta can do 3/6 hp of damage. Wraithknights are not cos being a GMC make it so much better, the onyl way to make it loose 3 wouds it’s with istant death exept D weapon. Also they have 5+fnp that can be removed only with istant death….

        • An_Enemy

          I like how you listed the HPs of a Knight while omitting the invuln, but went into great detail on the Wraith Knight. Never mind that the melta you mentioned would have to go through a 3++ or a 4++ on the IK while the WK would only have the 5+ FNP. No bias here.

          They’re both stupid units that aren’t very fun to play against.

          • Tesq

            lovely how i suppose to just shoot in da face of ion shield, only 1 face get the 4+ inv all the other are clear, multiple surce of melta are or in case of ork ( e units armed with tank hunter s8 ap3 ) can surround and thread 1 or more of them also other source like flyer can use blast that ignore inv as long the center of the blast do not came from behind the face of the ion shield and still 1 melta can do 3 “additional” hp for a total of 4 hp, you can with pure luck get down 1 IK with 2shoot, this is impossible with Wraithknight, or are you gona shoot him psyk shoots?
            Also wraithknight can fly over things while moving so he can basicaly past your bait units while IK can’t

          • An_Enemy

            So your counter argument is “well what happens if I play poorly and allow my unit to get surrounded by tons of things tailored to take it out?”

            I dunno, in that case, you usually lose no matter what army you’re playing.

          • Tesq

            my argument it’s you cannot prevent opponents to surround your ik.
            Deep strike, move 12″, and long shoot option, blast are things that cannot be predicted, also my shooty units ,that for sure have long range, will be x3 splitted on corners and mid will prevent any of your knight to be able to use always 100% assured that ion shield. Also ion shield do not work in cc, bait units and/or hq with more initiative can junk in pieces ik, protecting your hq from stomp, yea it’s dangerous but remember you can potentialy do 4 hp with just 1 luck roll.

          • Andrew Thomas

            Entirely predicated on running a single source army list, and playing aggressively.

          • georgelabour

            You should know that An_Enemy there is one of those blokes who likes to copy/paste other people’s negativity even though he doesn’t play the game or even know the rules.

            He also has this weird fetish for using the word Hypocrite the way Mcarthy used the word Communist.

          • Pascalnz

            the wraithkngiht invariably has at least a 5++ cover or 4++ all the time, plus FNP. oh.. and an armour save.. which does matter sometimes:)

          • An_Enemy

            Armor save doesn’t work against the melta he brought up. And those are nifty tables you play on when a WK is always getting 25% obscured for those cover saves.

          • georgelabour

            I like how you accused someone of omitting/ignoring rules and then did the same thing yourself in order to advance your consistently negative opinion of anything you discuss.

            There’s a word for people who tell people to do one thing, and then do another. Might you perhaps know what it is?

          • An_Enemy

            Isn’t there someplace else you should be shilling Tweetle/wibbling/george?

        • Andrew Thomas

          And you can’t chip away it’s guns, unlike those on a Knight.

  • benn grimm

    If you want to use armies made up entirely of Lords of War, then thats fine, so long as your opponent gets to do the same. Then, what would make it really fun, is if any of the other LOW were actually properly and consistently costed so that they were (try not to laugh) ‘balanced’ against one another. Then it might be fun.

    The thing I find somewhat irritating is the double standards of people who play this game, who can easily recognise(and whine incessantly) about one army being overpowered and not fun to play against (Eldar), but are completely fine when it’s the army they like the look of(Necrons, Knights, Imps in general). Never mind that 4 knights is functionally very similar to playing against the same number of Wraithknights, Riptides or any other ridiculously powerful, ridiculously hard to kill unit that flies around faster than most other units in the game, and generally breaks lots of rules that other models have to function by.

    • ZeeLobby

      Haha. Welcome to 6th/7th edition Warhammer 40K. If anything, all of these big lumbering walkers should only be moving 6 a turn.

    • georgelabour

      Good thing I’ve never said the eldar are over powered or not fun to play against. It means i can take the army I waited over two decades to have and enjoy it without all the angst and drama of internet wise men clouding my entertainment.

      • benn grimm

        Damn skippy! 🙂

  • jasonsation

    How’s the fluff in the new Codex compared to the old? Just a re-hash? Lots of new stuff?

    • Tesq

      less stuff, also i fast read it yest a bit but seems that, the small traitor IK stuff there was is; now gone……
      GW seems tell us we will not have a chaos knight now and ever…..

    • georgelabour

      Sadly while it has loads of good information on heraldry and individual houses compared to the first one it leaves out a lot of background fluff.

      For example there’s no mention of the Voltron style transport tubes that bring the Thrones down into the knights.

  • pokemastercube .

    combined with the FW knights (mostly the one with the flamer) they do now seem to be a very deacently sized army

    • withershadow

      Poor Lancers and Castigators. 🙁

      • pokemastercube .

        there is also the magaera and styrix (latter is 30K only) but the gallent does the same role as the lancer, only a little slower cos of not being on the cerastus body frame, the lancer may prove to be a good wing-man for it to deal with things like the stompa and other knights. the castigator is also overshadowed by the warden i feel now as it has a similar gun but with more shots over the twin-linked side. and with the standard body now having access to an AA weapon mount it replaces the need of the castigator to be there for an atempted AA plactform while also the crusader just is the gun plactform for hammering almost anything. Only the acheron has something that gives it a role that the plastics cant do, hit things in cover hard. the magaera is handy cos it has a S7 AP3 large blast shred weapon, but it can be overshadowed by the others a bit more

        • withershadow

          The Magaera actually has a pretty bad main weapon. Shred and Rending on an S7 AP3 large blast is nice, but if I want AP3 killing stuff, I’ll take the Paladin’s 2 shots at S8, or the Castigator’s 8 TL S7 shots, or the Warden’s 12 S6 shots, or the Styrix’ 5 S8 shots.

          As mentioned, the Styrix is much better off, with 5 S8 AP3 deflagrating shots and a graviton gun for the secondary weapon is interesting, although maybe counterproductive. Of course, the main draw of these two variants is the 6+ IWND, and being effectively AV14 against shooting (15 vs blasts/templates). -2I is a small price to pay for the survivability boost. Otherwise, if you’re just looking to blast the crap out of stuff, none of them can match the ranged damage output of a Crusader, and that’s even before you add carapace weapons (it gets damn expensive though).

          Gallant vs Lancer is interesting. Both have 4 D attacks in melee at WS4 and I4. Lancer is more survivable in melee, getting +1I on the charge and a refractor field in melee, plus it’s better against other big beasties/robots since it has concussive on the gun and reduces their hit rolls in melee. Otherwise, stormspear rocket pod + meltagun vs. 6-shot plasma gun is more or less a wash. Gallant has the enormous advantage of being able to target two units and assault whichever one it pleases, is 30 points cheaper with upgrades, and the Formation they have available ain’t too shabby either. The Cerastus chassis flank speed is a practically useless rule most of the time.

          Castigator vs. Warden is interesting, since the guns are comparable (Warden will average 8 hits, Castigator will average 7 at higher strength), with the Castigator having +1 attack and a better melee weapon. Again, though, Warden has that second and third (and maybe fourth) gun, so is definitely the more useful model. I suppose Castigators are still the staple AA for Crusade Knight lists.

          Acheron is sick no matter what, S7 AP3 ordnance with an apocalypse template will destroy swathes of infantry in cover or transport-level vehicles, something no other knight can do as well, and they finally thought to give it that second gun.

          I would very much like the next FW Knight update to give carapace weapons to the Cerastus chassis, but I doubt that will happen.

          • pokemastercube .

            i left the styrix out cos it is a HH only option (will be nagging FW on saturday when i am at opening weekend for warhammer world). as for carapace options, given teh design of the cerastus chassie, i doubt it cos the design isnt really for them, plus the whole thing for the design was ment to be about speed and despite the questoris being on the plastic chassie i doubt they would eather as they get a new roof and dont have the port on them, maybe FW will do more roof options for the standard 5.

          • withershadow

            I’m afraid of that, I just wish there was more to the Cerastus frame other than a useless run option and an extra attack now found cheaper elsewhere. There are few things that can take a volley from a Castigator/Lancer, and then require some stomping too, so it leaves your very expensive model limited to engaging only a single enemy unit per turn. They have their place in 30K with the Crusade List and generally large units and other big stuff for them to hunt.

          • pokemastercube .

            out of the lot the archeron i still plan to use as people tend to hide in cover when a knight is in play, so removing cover is very important. out of the other FW ones, maybe the lancer if i feel i need the defence from larger threats, which could be handy with the wraithknight now being a gargantian as it is effected by the shield, not certain about the others, but they still look good standing around my reaver

  • Tim Currey

    Man I wish GW would stop making sweet new models and releasing rules to use them

  • Chris Ihle

    Good article!
    With knights I see the same reactions like any release. Some players are enthusiastic, some search for reasons why the new stuff shouldn’t be part of the game due to an inability to adapt to new tactics.
    In the local store we have 3 of the later. They loudly keep trying to dictate what to play and what to refuse to play, especially towards the newer players. Slowly but progressively more and more players tell them more and more to go f* off and maybe look for other hobbies.
    I can understand that their selfpicture is somehow shaken up when between 5th and 6th ed. they were trying to find the “golden armylist” and thought they nearly got it and thought their one trick ponies are good strategies. Well, welcome to 7th ed’s multitude of possibilities and dozens of new releases.
    xD

  • Mud_Duck

    So could you get the Gallant Lance, put the Autocannons on all three and get the bonus rules of a Skyreaper as well?

    • georgelabour

      Not according to the rules in the rule book.

      They’re very clear that units can only be part of one formation and or detachment.

  • dubhgilla

    Sorry you lost me at the Knight being overcosted. Please don’t use the Wraith Knight as a yard stick for costing.