Top Ten: Fixing the Tyranids

tyranid-2ndedition

Bugs! Bugs? Yes – Bugs need love too! Here’s how to get the Hive fleets back on their feet!

1) Pyrovores – Their flamer needs Torrent. Suddenly the laughing stock of the Tyranid Codex is worth looking at. The Pyrovore shouldn’t have to rely on a Pod to even be considered for a list. It’s still has to compete against the other Elite choices but now it’s got a chance. Maybe

2) The Trygon / Trygon Prime – Give them the Escort Rule. Seriously, that’s what the intent of the Subterranean Assault rule is – The Escort rule is just a cleaner version of it. It would be nice to be able to nominate one other unit that comes on with the Trygon on the same turn. The trade off is you lose the board edge thing and the option to have more units arrive – but I’m okay with that.

3) Zoanthropes – Their Warp Blast needs to just be a shot, not a psychic witchfire attack. Why? Lets map this out. First, the unit has to pass a Psychic Test for 2 Warp Charges. Next, the target unit gets a chance to Deny the Witch. Then, they roll to hit and then roll to wound/pen. Now the target unit gets to take any applicable saves. That’s 5 points of failure for Warp Blast. If one of those goes wrong the whole attack is wasted. Just simplify it and make it a single shot per Zoanthrope.

4) Crushing Claws – The Unwieldy rule needs to be removed from them. Other than the Tyrant Guard, this biomorph is only available on 3 Monstrous Creatures. On one of those creatures  it’s not even optional, it’s mandatory. They already have Smash which gives them AP 2 attacks. So you’re basically paying 15 points to get +1 Str and Armorbane and to strike at Int 1… not worth it.

5) Genestealers – They need an Assault Grenade type of ability. This used to be Flesh Hooks but aren’t available to Genestealers. On top of that Flesh Hooks have additional special rules now so they don’t fit the bill. Genestealers were one of the best assault units in the game but now you can defeat them with the “Shrubbery” defense. A change to the Broodlord’s Psychic ‘attack’ would be my suggestion. Suddenly he’s worth the extra 60(!!!) points…

6) Haurspex – This Monstrous Creature should not have mandatory Crushing Claws and have WS 4. It’s a giant assault beast that wants to eat models whole! At least make it viable in close-combat.

7) Ravenors – These should be slightly cheaper and have a 4+ armor save. Why? When was the last time you saw these guys in a serious list – that’s why.

8) Tyrannofexes and Hive Guard – should have the Symbiotic Targeting Rule like the Exocrine. Not moving to get the bonus BS would really help these units be more attractive to take vs the other options in their already crowded Heavy and Elite slots.

9) Tyranid Warriors – need a different way to avoid being S8+ fodder. Eternal Warrior or T5 were fixes from previous editions – I don’t know if those are the right answer, but sticking a Prime in every unit of warriors isn’t an answer either. These guys have the potential to be down right scary. But the scariest part about these guys is how fast they die when a stiff breeze hits them.

10) The Strangleweb is useless – Why? Because unless you’re a Tyranid player, you probably didn’t even know that it exists. The Strangleweb is an upgrade to Termagants. For every 10 T-Gants you can take 1 Strangleweb which is an Assault 1, Pinning template. Sounds good so far, right? It’s only Str 2… Yeah. If it was Str 3 it might actually be worth the 5 points to upgrade.

Bonus: Formations – A player should not need feel forced to run formations to ‘fix’ the inherent flaws with the core book. The Formations should add options and character – they should NOT be (basically) mandatory.

Wishlist? Sure! Necessary? Debatable! What do you think BoLS Readers? What’s your biggest issue with the Tyranids and how would you fix it?

  • Byungwook Kim

    Does unwieldy apply to MC? Last time I checked it didn’t.

    • Shiwan8

      No, but it should not do so with the guard either.

      • Matt

        But sadly it does.

        • Shiwan8

          Which is the reason it should be removed….

          • nurglitch

            You can always use the Rending Claws if you want to benefit from the Tyrant Guard’s Initiative.

          • Shiwan8

            Yes, and get the actual benefit on 6s…

          • Koszka

            Rending claws have an ap of 5. they do plenty of work. When you add in crushing claws your tyrant guard have quite bit of variety in combat.

            It’s nice to remember that tyrant guard are pretty much living walls. Add on some seriously heavy pincers and i doubt they could be faster than a space marine.

            Not to mention they are the bodyguard for a freaking tyrant. They shouldn’t outshine a tyrant.

          • Shiwan8

            AP5 is nothing. Almost everyone but other nids and AM has 4+ or better.

            They are init 4, they are not faster than marines even if they hit on their initiative. The point is that they are a wall of plates and muscle, you know, huge killing machines with the 1st priority being the tyrants survival. There is no physical reason why their caws would be any slower than those of the other nids.
            The job of a bodyguard is not to make the guarded thing look good but to keep it alive and preferably unharmed. There are various ways to do this, but the human way is to stand between the problem and the protected person and do what ever is necessary to keep that person protected. This might include a show of force that is beyond the capabilities of the protected person.

            Besides the tyrant is not an egocentric entity. It’s a part of the whole. It does not care if it’s protected by some thing more capable than it is.

          • Koszka

            Orks, Nids, Eldar guardians, dark eldar,imperial guard. Sounds like you have quite a few armies that would fear rending claws. As a blob IG player, i fear the rending claw. IG blob with battle hymns is amazing, now remove my ability to roll a save and suddenly my staying power diminishes quickly! Removing the armor from a dark elder means they now soley relying on a FnP roll (or ignore everything if they had adrenal glands).
            Even removing t-shirt saves from an ork/kroot means stripping a layer of defense off the opposition. Every wound matters.

            “There is no physical reason why their claws would be any slower than those of the other nids.”

            Toss a nemesis weapon from a dread knight to a terminator and explain why he should be able to swing it on even terms.

            Keep in mind this book was written in 6th, when smash attacks were king. Why give yet another unit weaponry to make them on par, and in most instances, better than actual MC’s? The fact that they have wargear options is awesome and if you wanted to smack some MEQ’s around use boneswords/lashwhips. By taking restrictions off of one piece of wargear, it makes all the other pieces irrelevant.

            So lets recap:
            • rending claws/ scything talons – strike at initiative, good for smacking down light infantry, with a chance to harm TEQ’s and vehicles. Stop equipment, thus free since it has a narrow spectrum of ability ( compared to other wargear available)
            • Bonesword/lashwhip – Striking at higher initiative and able to smack around MEQs. Possible chance to ID models on 6’s. Good all around abilities with some sneaky ID potential.
            • Crushing claws – strength bonus, anti-tank bonus, and good at fighting TEQs. Has an initiative penalty to make up for wide spectrum of ability.

            I think this a very wise decision by GW. It makes each piece worth consideration.

          • Andersp90 .

            “Toss a nemesis weapon from a dread knight to a terminator and explain why he should be able to swing it on even terms.”

            If look the the model, you will find that the crushing claws and the standard claws are about the same size…

          • Shiwan8

            It’s a meat shield/vehicle killer. There is almost no way it could reach melee with infantry while it’s alive. That blob of your will melt it, it’s siblings and it’s master before they get even close.

            You might want to check your facts. The claws are not even close to the size of those that the monsters wield.

            We were talking about what needs to change from present condition for things to be usable in the next codex. The codex would have been ok with all the stuff nids have now, in the 6th.

            – Rending claws good in situations they do not get in to almost ever.
            – BS/LW means nothing because the lack of grenades = hit on init 1.
            – Making bad units not bad is not exactly a harmful thing. Granted, nids used to have tools that made the claws good as is, but rules changed that.

    • Byungwook Kim

      Nids need like, a gargantuan creature that moves 24″ and charges 3D6. And can rpae imperial knights and wraith knights in combat.

      • Deathmage

        Do not encourage GW, end times are coming… And they look gargantuan

      • wibbling

        Yes, and for about 10 points, say?

        If you’re struggling to use your army well, change your tactics.

    • adamharry

      No – it’s under the unwieldy rule, but it still applies to the Tyrant Guard. Crushing claws used to be D3 extra attacks – I guess I have elaborated on that point more. Basically what I was trying to say is that MC don’t need the “benefits” and Tyrant Guard are paying for a drop in Initiative. Plus the claws are only available on 4 units total. Crushing claws is just not a good “upgrade”

  • Shiwan8

    Most nid problems are fixed like this: Instinctive behavior triggers only when a morale test should be made normally, synapse gives fearless, EW and 5+ FNP.

    Might sound crazy but it is fluffy and makes nids viable while not really making them over the top.

    • Tesq

      it seems enough fluff wise and still not broken as some space elves of nowdays

      • Shiwan8

        Exactly. The synapse should be a buff, not something that is insanely high cost and mostly comes with very weak units. Now it’s like CSM tax but worse.

    • Renegades

      I don’t see why they should have EW and 6+ FNP would be enough.

      • Shiwan8

        Even the EW would do wonders. Now most of the codex’s multiwound models are useless because of their low toughness and measly saves.

      • Christopher A. Herrera

        Frankly the 6+ FnP would be eh. It’d be good, don’t get me wrong. But that’s pretty much tyranid psyker game at the moment is hope to roll standard FnP which…isn’t THAT hard. I rarely play a game where I lack at least a single FnP platform(and not only does it hit a unit of choice within 12″ but the casting unit).

        EW would be MUCH better. Honestly…..EW would help a lot of problems bugs have atm in the meta, but I dunno. Part of me doesn’t feel it’s appropriate to grant EW in synapse because I played in 4th when bugs were largely OP for that reason, BUT after seeing the latest string of releases….the game has scales up a lot since then.

        • Nameless

          It is worth noting that force weapons in 4th removed from play rather than caused instant death. I suspect that other weapons that now cause instant death worked that way as well, but I honestly can’t remember them coming up.

          • Christopher A. Herrera

            True, but force weapons were less prominent except on a handful of things, and instant death wasn’t prominent either, D wasn’t a thing.

            It proved more useful on non-MC’s since heavy weapons couldn’t ID them.

          • Tynskel

            if you read 7th Edition rules, Eternal Warrior stops ‘remove from play’ now.

          • Nameless

            that was more the point I was making. Although Tyranids have had Eternal warrior, it protected them from fewer things then current eternal warrior does. In 4th, for example, Warriors would not be instant deathed from str 8 weapons, but where still vulnerable to force weapons. where as in 7th if they hypothetically had Eternal Warrior, they would be immune to instant death from str 8 weapons, force weapons and everything else short of D weapons.

        • lorieth

          OK so normally an ID weapon means roll to wound once, cause W wounds; EW overrides it so ID causes 1W instead. How about a compromise rule where ID causes W *hits*, i.e. you roll to wound W times? You might still be wiped out by the one hit, but it’s much less likely.

          It also means there’s still some point hitting the unit with high strength weaponry. There’re too many advantages for high rate-of-fire weapons in the (meta-)game as it is.

    • Francois Sanchez

      I’m ok with that except for FNP. Talking about FNP you can use catalyst which is excellent.

      • Shiwan8

        It is if you happen to get it, if you happen to have the dice to cast it, if you happen to succeed and if it is not denied….so not very probable. But when it succeeds it’s awesome.

        • Francois Sanchez

          Yes there is some probability to fail, but statistically speaking it’s quite easy to get. Anyway my point was more having army wide FNP is too much

          • Shiwan8

            Not really that easy. Not counting tyrant variants, the probability to get it is 1/6.

            Is it too much? You have got to remember that most guns are now s6 or above. That means that gaunts would still not get it. It might be, I do not know, have not tested it. It was just a suggestion. There are other ways to achieve viability.

    • Andersp90 .

      Shrouded + FNP + a MC would be over the top imho. EW for warriors makes sense fluffwise though. Would be nice to see a massive change to synapse. Right now it hadicaps you more than it helps. Shooting buffs for ranged units and melee buffs for CC units would make alot of sense fluffwise. The instinct table should only come in play when the unit is forced to take one like all other units.

      • Shiwan8

        That is a good idea too.

      • #define_Foo

        the problem is synapse was originally intended to be the tyranids handicap. from a time when removing that many models and that many MC’s was a problem for most army’s so making them bunch up for pie plates was needed.

        but now we can all mostly take more than 3x of our biggest guns the synapse handicap is over the top.

        so it need to bee totally re-envisioned to be a buff or removed and simple army wide fearless added

        • Andersp90 .

          Not sure if that is true, but I can’t disprove it. 🙂 But synapse should both be balanced and represent the (current) fluff. Currently is does neither every well. Suggestion would be hard to balance, but I am sure that it can be done.

    • J Mad

      Dont need EW, just tweak a few units and make Synapse a buff.

      • Shiwan8

        Looking at the codex and the latest codices, “few” units would mean all units and the EW is pretty mandatory if the codex does not get some really awesome buffs otherwise.

        • J Mad

          Swarmlord should…. for sure…

  • daboarder

    decent points all. Its worth noting that warriors have never been T5, but T5 3 wounds 4+ save would be a good way of making the unit viable in the modern 40k game

    • adamharry

      Yes they did. In 2nd and 3rd Ed they had T5 and 2 wounds. I think it was the 4th or 5th edition codex that changed them from T5 to T4 with 3 wounds. That was also when synapse changed to include Eternal Warrior.

      • Luciferiel

        They were also monstrous creatures.

      • Azrell

        In 3rd edition SM Captains had T5.

      • daboarder

        They had T5 in 3rd? are you sure? ill check when I get home. if so, then woops

  • Inian

    Nr 3 has been at the top of my list for a while, closely followed by nr 9.

  • fursphere

    Didn’t ‘Nids just win a major tournament? (LVO?)

    • Aezeal

      Probably not with these units? A list can have a few must-haves that are good and still need fixes on other stuff to make the viable (ofc if you fix you should downgrade the OP stuff too).

    • It was a spammy gimmicky list that won. The guy who played it was a pro tho, not trying to tale away from his victory.

    • Apoc

      Yeah, try being a Nid Player in Germany where most Tournaments use ETC Rules, no Formations and no FW.

      It is really a blast at the moment…

    • Thariinye

      The Nid list that won LVO (called #Lictorshame) was a weird and interesting list, that didn’t play like you’d expect a Nid list to play in fluff, or in earlier editions of the game.

      3 Flying Hive Tyrants (2 from Leviathan), which are probably the best single model in Tyranids.
      3 Mawlocs
      6 Lictors — the really odd choice, but it synergizes with Mawloc DS, while also being a good MSU objective holder, and dealing well with 6th Edition Wave Serpents in melee.
      A bunch of Mucolids and Spore Mines for getting in the way.

      It’s not that Tyranids don’t have good units and can’t win GTs. It’s that the winning armies generally do so by strategies that don’t play with many of the models that people really love from Tyranids — Warriors, Carnifexes, Genestealers.

      • davepak

        Excellent point – I can win games with my nids – I just have a VERY narrow range of models and tactics to do so. Improving the codex would be good for everyone – as it would give more diversity to nid lists – and that is good for the tyranid player, and their opponent.

    • adamharry

      they did! by not taking any of the units mentioned above – except formations. which proves my point about formations.

    • J Mad

      Nids didnt win….. a Supplement book won, we are talking about the Codex: Tyranids, not Supplement: Baal

      That Book made it able to take 3 HQ’s for 1 CAD but your Warlord got a free added upgrade (A d3, +1 wound, FnP? And most importantly, Can leave the Board when being shot at) So you have 3 Tyrants, a Warlord that CAN NOT DIE and 15pt Troops (from the supplement) that When you assault with them they are Large Blast S8, AP4, with Shroud, DS and 3W…..

      The Nids Codex cant do any of that and needed not just 1, but 3.. 3! Dataslate, and 2.. yes 2! Supplements to EVEN make them playable.

      • babelfisk

        Bit of hyperbole here. The list that won said tournament was unusual (it is detailed below), but it was not a Baal list.

        The upgrade you are talking about is not free. It is the fighter ace upgrade and costs 30 points. There are six options on the fighter ace chart and you get a single roll. They are good, but you pay for them. As I recall (i could be wrong) the Lictor Shame build didn’t use it at all.

        Finally, he only used two sources: Codex:Nids, and the Hive Fleet Detachment, from Baal. Two sources, one used to get two models (the detachment opened up extra HQ slots for him to put lictors in). By 7th ed standards, that is pretty tame.

        • J Mad

          It is free (Go read the rules) if your Main detachment is from that book. And its 3 options…. its a D3 go read your book again.

      • Wolfstone

        And still they fail, since they hardly put effort into ANY of these.

  • Grand_Master_Raziel

    Making Warriors T5 would bridge that gap between T4 Genestealers and T6 MCs, so that makes sense to me.

    • J Mad

      1 problem, MC’s like Swarmlord, Carnifex, T-fex are ALL 25-30% over cost. Look at the Necrons spider and compare to Carnifex, you will see what I mean.

    • babelfisk

      I would honestly rather see the cost on warriors go down than push them to T5. I think that 20 point basic warriors, with the sword/whip/poison/flesh hooks/fleet cc build being about 30 points after all upgrades. That would allow enough bodies to make it to cc.

  • Francois Sanchez

    1. Yes
    2. Not needed at all but that would be cool
    3. No
    4. No (unwieldy doesn’t affect MC)
    5. Yes (but genestealers can still work right now)
    6. No (See point 4)
    7. Yes but raveners are actually great if used properly
    8. Not needed but I like
    9. Seeing how EW has been removed from nearly everything outside a few named characters, they shouldn’t get EW. T5 maybe but it’s a huge buff (maybe too much?)
    10. We need at least the gun to be in the box.

    • Djbz

      I’d go for the following:
      Warriors (Shrikes+Raveners too) Str+T 5 (With points appropriate for it)
      Onslaught psychic power becomes Run+ shoot OR Run+Charge
      An invulnerable save option for Hive Tyrant, Flying Tyrant loses an Armour point.
      Ws of Melee monsters being higher than 3
      Bs of (most) Shooty monsters being higher than 3
      Trygons/Mawlocs get Str 9 + T 7 (And made back into Gargantuan)
      Tyrannofex gets T 7/8
      Instinctive Behaviour feed- remove the “eat themselves”
      The Hive Crone’s weapon to fit it’s role (A template weapon on a anti-flyer bug is just dumb)
      Oh and Str/T 6 for the Harpy+ crone

    • davepak

      Raveners are easily slaughtered when caught in the open, which is not hard to do. They need a better save.

  • Dennis J. Pechavar

    I thought “fixing ” bugs would be having units worth taking so we wouldn’t see the spam of 3 flyrants. I am a casual bug player(mostly a Ravenwing/IG player) but whenever I show up people are pissed at me until I tell them I’m not running 3 flyrants. I agree with some of your points though and it would be nice to see other units on the board.

    • davepak

      Agreed. Give the crone and harpy a 3+, and make the harpy’s screech an ability, so they become a tactical synergy unit – that will encourage list diversity and smart play.

      • J Mad

        Crones are actually really good, I played 3 flyrants, 3 crones, 5 M-spores, Malanthrope and never lost at my local, I stop playing b.c its not tyranids, I didnt buy 200 H/T-gants, 40 Goyles and 20 Warriors to play with 11 Models.

        but… the point was, the Crones did just as much as Tyrants did, when you have a 2+ cover for 2 turns, shooting Haywire, then Flamer/vector striking next 2 turns, it hurts.

        • babelfisk

          Did you run any maelstrom games? I have found that flyer heavy builds struggle at objective grabbing-if you land them to get a point, you tend to lose them the next turn.

          We have started picking missions by rolling a d12, with the 7-12 being the maelstrom missions. Makes it so that you have to bring objective grabbers b/c you can get outscored even if you win by every other metric.

          • J Mad

            We do both every week, That is what DS Rippers are for or Gargoyles 🙂 Some cheap units you hold on to for a fast score.

  • I hate how they increases melee weapons got more expensive this recent codex. Boneswords should be dirt cheap to encourage and reward melee units. The alpha warrior is a joke for his points. If he has to buy weapons and upgrades, he needs to start at like 75 points.

    The warrior chassis needs to be t5 w2, it’s not like there are wraith, thunder wolves, and bike running around. Oh wait.

  • Da Masta Cheef

    “Lets map this out. First, the
    unit has to pass a Psychic Test for 2 Warp Charges. Next, the target unit gets a chance to Deny the Witch. Then, they roll to hit and then roll to wound/pen.”

    Uh…yeah. I’m thinking that there’s some Ork Weird boyz with BS2 that would like to discuss how hard it is to successfully use their witchfire spells with you…

    • adamharry

      Yes! It’s worse for them! Psychic shooting attacks are bad and need to be changed. Nids and Orks both.

    • davepak

      Agreed, but two wrongs don’t make a right.
      Also, the warp blast is the nids only strong shooting attack at BS4. They really have no other reliable options for dealing with vehicles.

      • babelfisk

        Tyrants with devourers and/or e-grubs in mass do well against vehicles. The problem there is you end up using mass tyrants and little else and getting stuck in the monobuild.

  • Chris. K Cook

    On point 5. Stop using Genestealers as anything other than ambush shock troops and you’ll realise they don’t need ‘nades.

    Stop complaining that you Cat isn’t a dog.

    • adamharry

      I’m not complaining that I don’t have a dog – I’m complaining that my cat got neutered when I didn’t ask for the operation. I had my Genestealers when they were good – the latest two codexes have rendered them ineffective. They are too expensive, too squishy and not worth taking. so now my cat sits in a box gathering dust… thanks GW edition changes.

      • SZMatheson

        At least the last ‘dex had Ymgarls, which were awesome and had fun ambush rules.

      • Chris. K Cook

        Damn it this screw driver won’t hammer nails in it. Why won’t it do the job?

    • nurglitch

      This. Not to mention that you don’t need grenades if you can force the unit being charged to go to ground, or if they’re already locked in combat from a previous turn.

      • adamharry

        yeah that could work – so you’re saying that pinning units is easy because it’s not like fearless is everywhere. And that using a screening unit from a previous turn (earliest turn for a charge is turn 2) would hold the target unit long enough for the gene stealers to assault by turn 3. So sitting in cover for 1/2 the game is a good strategy? Look I know you’re saying that genestealers can work – and they can, theoretically – but in an actual game, I haven’t seen that pulled off for at least 2 editions. Part of that is because no one uses genestealers, and the other part of that is because it is a LOT more difficult to do to a competent player than you’re making it out to be.

        • nurglitch

          No, I’m saying that Tyranids already have tactical solutions to the problem of the initiative penalty. No need for rules that discourage smart play.

          • babelfisk

            The tactical solutions to the problem are complex, have multiple points of failure, and don’t work against several armies.

      • Shiwan8

        How do you force something to go to ground, with nids specifically?

        • Andersp90 .
          • adamharry

            yeah – the guy failed to stop the warp charges with 8 dice, and fail his leadership check with a -2. I guess that 10 points he saved for not taking that vet sarge is kicking him in the butt…

          • Djbz

            One of the many reasons why I always take the squad leader options.
            Doubly so for non-fearless/loyalist marine units

        • babelfisk

          Barbed stranglers, stranglethorn cannons, the horror. If you build to it, nids have access to a lot of pinning.

          Not to say that I think pinning + genestealers is a good tactic-too many points of failure, and stealers are normally dead before they hit charge range anyway.

          • Shiwan8

            That is not forcing, especially when almost everyone is fearless now and the rest are ATSKNF. Forcing is letting the forcee to have no other options.

            Stealers need the striking scorpion treatment.

          • babelfisk

            Shiwan, adamharry,

            I’m not trying to argue that access to pinning makes stealers good. stealers have lots of issues and need a major revamp to be effective. I am not even trying to argue that pinning is good in general. I am just pointing out that nids have a surprising amount of pinning available to them.

          • Shiwan8

            I understand. The point I was trying to make is that pinning is just about as useless as fear is as a USR.

          • babelfisk

            Oh, agreed completely. I’m running four 3 man warrior squads with 2x rending and a barbed strangler in support of my penta-Tyrant right now, and I find the pinning to be consistently disappointing.

            I’ll kill a couple of marines a turn with the stranglers, but nobody gets pinned, and when they do, it is so erratic that I can never take real advantage of it.

          • adamharry

            I have tried that build – there are too many things with fearless for pinning to be reliable, too many things that ignore cover for the stealers to hide in cover and safe, and the armies that don’t have access to those two thing usually have some ridiculous overwatch options. So yes – in theory it is possible. But i have rarely seen it happen. 🙁

        • nurglitch

          With one of their 3 pinning weapons, the Horror psychic power, or simply any shooting that denies the targets an armour save; Exocrines are good for this.

          • Shiwan8

            These are far from forcing them down. There are still plenty of things that can go badly before pinning is achieved. Then there is the fearless thing that seems to be on more units than it is not.

          • nurglitch

            Sure, which is why I mentioned that units already locked in combat from a previous turn don’t inflict the I1 penalty when charged. Cannon-fodder isn’t just for absorbing overwatch, but also the difficult terrain penalty.

          • babelfisk

            Yeah, but then you are not charging with the stealers till turn 3 at best, turn 4 if the other player is any good. 3-4 turns of absorbing fire with stealers, even with a venomthrope, is a lot of dead, expensive models.

          • Shiwan8

            That would have to happen in turn 1 somehow. Otherwise the glass jaw stealers are all dead.

      • Chris. K Cook

        Yeah my point you charge them with ‘gaunts and flank ’em with ‘stealers.

        Stop asking for auto win point and click units.

    • Avensis Astari

      But I want 4th Ed Genestealer spam so I can take 50 and charge you turn one from Inflitrate, Power my way through your armour saves and kill half your army turn 1!

      • adamharry

        you know we dealt with that in 4th? Not deploying on the 12″ line, putting LOS blocking terrain away from you (so they can’t start 12″ away) sitting in a rhino/transport or shooting them when you got first turn. On top of that you can’t get a 1st turn assault (unless you’re going 2nd), units have overwatch now, and shooting is king. So I don’t think the 4th Ed genestealer spam would work at all in 7th – even with ‘Stealers having an assault grenade type of ability.

        • Drosseph Stalin

          dont feed the troll. Clearly someone got butt hurt by 4th ed stealers and is still healing 2 editions latter.

        • J. Wurzer

          They also fixed the wording from sixth edition for Infiltrate stating “A unit that deploys using these rules cannot charge in their first turn.”, rather than saying on the first turn. So you have to wait til turn two no matter what now, when Infiltrating.

      • Chris. K Cook

        Press the ‘I Win Button’!

    • Shiwan8

      Please do elaborate this tactic of yours. I’m not sure I understood you.

      • Chris. K Cook

        You don’t charge over the cover you come from the sides or behind because you know INFILTRATORS.

        Get it now? Or should I use smaller words?

        • Shiwan8

          So, you had an idea and realized it’s not valid outside theory and now you stry to attack hoping that your childish act would hide your failure. Ok then. I still suggest that you try to learn to be better so that you don’t have to act like a pampered 5 year old girl.

    • J Mad

      To bad every other unit in the game that is comparable has better means to survive, cheaper and has less cost upgrades/better upgrades.

      I rather take Daemonettes.

  • TweetleBeetle

    We’ve seen tricks in Skitarii and Eldar for making melee units more viable without flat stat changes. Things like Stealth on Scorpions, the +3″ Dunecrawler rule, the ignores penalties for charging through terrain on Banshees, as well as denying overwatch…

    Anything like that helps Tyranids cc gribblies. I could also see the stand-and-shoot buff to Hive Guard and Tyrannofexes.

    Its “Raveners,” not “Ravenors”. Drives me nuts… Anyway, for 30+ points per, without a transport, Stealth/Shroud/invulnerable/FNP, a 5+ save is unacceptable.

    I like formations, but agree they shouldn’t be mandatory to fix an army. The new detachment format is DEFINITELY welcome though. Great list building options that encourage variety, and provide decent command benefits.

    • Chris. K Cook

      And don’t forget all the FW and LoW fun too.

    • Hopefully bugs get the eldar treatment you were speaking of. Fingers crossed.

  • n00bzilla99

    Give the nids some actual ap1/2 shooting so they can cause explodes results on the damage table.

    Rupture cannon and the bio-cannon should be ap 2 because you know they’re anti tank guns.

    Even if you kept them bs 3, the increase in ap would make these worth taking

    • Djbz

      And poison on the venom cannon.
      Because, duh, it’s in the name…

      • n00bzilla99

        Or instead of being sarcastic, realize a fault of the nids is lack of ability to hurt super heavies reliably like other armies and that some ap 2/1 would go some ways towards encouraging people to take tyrannofexs and the other forgeworld gargantuans.

        • Djbz

          I wasn’t being sarcastic, I agree with you.
          I just think something with “venom” in the name should be poisoned too

          • n00bzilla99

            too true i would really like if the monsters had some sort of survivability beyond “get a malathrope”

        • J Mad

          If crushing claws was still +d3 attacks AFTER, Smash attack, and Trygons/Fex’s could get a +6″ movement, then Nids wouldnt need Guns… I dont like the idea of gun nids anyways 🙂

          • n00bzilla99

            but GW already made gun nids, so why not make them useable as well and give us you know… options?

          • J Mad

            Its not that they cant have or cant be good, just the armry should have GOOD melee and the Guns SHOULD get them into melee or make it able to suppress the enemy to help you move across the field.

  • Shannon Edwards

    nids lack armor piercing. mandatory pyrovore is useless comment.
    remembering that pretty much everything nid can hold objectives too…

  • deuce1984

    Love all of the suggestions.

    Re. Warriors, they should be T5, NOT EW.

    You also forgot that there were some rules needed nerfing. The Flying Hive Tyrant Formation should never have been released. Also, the mawloc attack should not be AP2. Instead it should be Strength 6, AP4, Ignores cover.

    • Matt

      You’d never see them again. Currently it’s our only way to deal with invisibility or TEQ in the backfield. Remember, we don’t have tanks, transports, or AV.

      • deuce1984

        Strength 8 then? AP2 is absurd. It is a blunt force attack. The AP should not be low but high strength ignores cover makes sense.

        • Matt

          140 points for a large blast that only goes off like 2x a game at most and always scatters the full distance is absurd?! I’d hate to see what you think about Lehman Russes or Vindicators since they can do that every turn for the same points. What about the master of ordinance for a mere 25 points?

          • deuce1984

            Vindis only have a 24 inch threat range and are more easily dealt with due to being a vehicle instead of a MC. I am less familiar with Leman Russes so I won’t comment on them.

    • Christopher A. Herrera

      Flying hive tyrant formation?

      Which are you talking about?

      Skyblight? Skytyrant? Skyswarm?

      • deuce1984

        The one that allows for more than 2 flying hive tyrants (5 or something crazy).

        • Christopher A. Herrera

          what you’re talking about doesn’t exist. there is a formation thats all 3 flyer formations. that is literally 3 formations in one however. that really isn’t fieldable in basically nonapoc games. you can through multiple detachments in number as low as 2 unlock 5hq slots to run 5. but that is taking multiple detachments, something every army can do. and unlike Tyranids other armies can take detachments of entirely different armies and move freely. if someone in your local gaming scene is claiming to have a formation that allows 5 tyrants they are cheating. that being said it is perfectly possible taking multiple formations and a single standard detachment and field more hive tyrants. a lot of Tyranid formations take a single hive tyrant.

          • babelfisk

            The Hive Fleet Detachment in the Leviathan book permits 3 HQ with the requirement that 3 troops be taken. Combined with a CAD from Codex: Tyranids, you can get 5 flying Hive Tyrants in a two source build.

            (Two source build is important b/c many tournaments are limiting lists to any two sources in order to control some of the more absurd builds)

          • Christopher A. Herrera

            I may not have articulated myself clearly, but I assure you my above comment already says what you just responded with. the original poset said 5 flyrants in a FORMATION. As RAW as 40k is, you really cant use detachment and formation interchangably

          • babelfisk

            Fair enough. I took it to mean you thought that a non-unbound 5 tyrant build was not legal. My bad.

  • John Turner

    Revert scything talons; make hormies, rippers, stealers, mawlocs, trygons beasts

    • Andersp90 .

      And make the trygons shooting attack and upgrade (so the base model gets cheaper).

  • J Mad

    How to fix?

    make Warrior: T5 and make Ravagers/Shrieks 3+ Armor aswell

    Synpase needs ot be a Buff Not a Negative, when a Nid is INSIDE Synapse they get:

    Feed: + 3″ to movement
    Hunt: +1 BS
    Lurk: +1 Cover save

    Trygon/Mawlock/Prime should be 2+ save Not 3
    Trygon Tunnel should be the same, Primes tunnel tho should be 1 unit per try arrive via tunnel can charge the turn it comes out.

    And Reduce the cost of many of the MC, some of them are fine, just over cost.

    Swarmlord should be 2+/3++ AT ALL TIMES Give it EW also.

    But I truly Believe staying in Synapse SHOULD be a buff and not a handicap. Give the nids plays benefits for staying in synapse.

  • Ronin

    I feel like a number of problems could be solved if tyranids were given beast rules. Being able to get across faster means getting into combat becomes more viable as it seems the most hard hitting attacks are in assault.

    • Rotten Deadite

      It’s a good idea, and it’s fluffy too, in a way.

    • Shiwan8

      Also a solution.

  • Adam Richard Corrigan

    Synapse should stack so that the more you have the stronger the Hive mind is: Something aking to fireprism stacking but with Psychic phase such as for 1-3 Synapse +1 warp charge; 4-6; +1 WC and +1 to deny the witch; 7-9; +2 WC + 2 to deny the witch; 10+ something obscene. This would reflect the smothering nature of the Hive MInd and the shadow in the warp. You could replace the warp charge for FNP getting stronger.

    • Eric

      sounds like a pain to keep track off.

      • Adam Richard Corrigan

        Really? Is it that hard to keep track of the number of Synapse creatures in your army? How do you cope with the psychic phase? Half of the problem with some gamers is that they want more balance but with the fluff without having to do anything. My warlock conclave is now great as it’s mastery level and number of warp charges vary for the number of warlocks in it; but then how do I keep track of it?

        • Eric

          I didn’t say it was hard; I didn’t say it would be bad. I said it would be a pain, as in tedious. This game is full of tedious things. Like constantly looking up random things on random charts.

          • Adam Richard Corrigan

            I hate random charts too; but a clear structure that reflects the hive mind would be learned after one or two games but improve every one of them.

  • karloss01

    Merge the Biovores with the Pyrovores would be nice, make the flamespurt torrent; also use the Pyrovore as a base for the plastic kit. the model is great but the rules are meh which is why I use them as Biovores with some slight conversion work to make the guns look like spore mine launchers.

  • Lucas Massa

    What about the Shadows of the Warp?

  • davepak

    Shadow in the Warp is a joke – while it should obviously not be as good as the fluff (nothing should, otherwise marines are T8 and Tau BS10) but its not even remotely close.
    Here are some good options: units have to re-roll successful psy tests, or perils on ANY double. That would show the risk and trouble of dealing with it.

  • foulestfeesh13 .

    Monsterous creatures ignore the unwieldy rule

  • Joe Rowan

    NIds don’t need anything period. Have you seriously played with or against them? The only book that is better then Nids is Eldar which is completely bonkers but that’s another story entirely. I swear people get upset because they don’t win every game. If the game is balanced then you should only win about 50% when you go up against good opponents. Play a few games with Dark Eldar or Orks then come back and tell me what needs to be fixed…

    • Christopher A. Herrera

      Yes, the books you listed are far down the totem pole.

      The idea that the only book better than nids is eldar makes me wonder how much you play against a lot of different armies. And….allies? and….rulebook psychic powers?

      Daemonkin is AWESOME. Eldar is stupid good. Chaos daemons is still a brutal book(and allied w daemonkin is…oof). Necrons are brutal. Knights are good, and make a solid add to any marine army, some of which need the love more than others(those poor damned dark angels).

      And the ork book isn’t terrible, it certainly has it’s gems. I’m not sure which book it’s in, but the formation that has the jets that fly off the table and restore all their hull points/missiles? Yeah, that one is damned hard to deal with.

      The stompa is one of the most survivable superheavies in the game.

      Dark eldar got shafted. Honestly they’re the only army that in the more recent release of codex’s I felt got more shafted than the orks/nids(the nid book has like 3 gems- flyrants, venomthropes, mucolids- in that regard it’s not a good book).

      How often do you play against tyranids and with what armies?

      Cause my experience as someone who plays more than one army, but primarily bugs has been the first 2ish times people play tyranids they feel overwhelmed because they haven’t figured out the target priority. Once you know what to gun for first though I’d argue a lot of the newer/better books can find bugs pretty easy to deal with unless you’re a good tyranid player. and most of my opponents are pretty competent….

      • Joe Rowan

        I play Blood Angels and Dark Eldar though BA far more then DE for obvious reasons. I’m in a 32 man league that runs all year with almost every army in the game represented. I agree that Eldar are stupid good, to the point so that I don’t enjoy playing them. Admittedly nobody in my league runs Daemons but I have played against people who take Daemonology and it gets silly fast. None of this is relevant though, my point is simply that Nids are not a book that NEEDS help. Maybe I feel this way because the guys in my league that run Nids use Forgeworld stuff. One runs a Mieotic Spore list and the other runs 2 Dimachaeron. DA, DE, and Orks can’t even compete right now though.

        • Christopher A. Herrera

          Yeah, the forgeworld stuff really helps bring bugs more upto fighting shape.

          Ah, a blood angels player. Yeah short of going allies heavy you guys got one of the blerg marine books imo. Especially against tyranids since they’ll just sit in the air all day.

          Honestly I’d say the armies that do the worst against bugs are blood angels and maybe chaos marines(but that has more to do with their books). Marines in general aren’t terribly good against tyranids. Often I find them to be a fair fight depending on their chapter tactics and whatnot.

          Orks V tyranids is in my experience an awesome fun matchup, that rarely is one sided, though all the ork players I play/have played are some of the better players I feel I’ve had the pleasure of dealing with.

          • babelfisk

            I love playing orks with my nids, except when i’m in a tournament. The games are always fun and filled with glorious carnage, but, win or lose, getting even 1850 points done in less than 2 hours is a challenge.

        • adamharry

          “None of this is relevant though, my point is simply that Nids are not a book that NEEDS help. Maybe I feel this way because the guys in my league that run Nids use Forgeworld stuff. One runs a Mieotic Spore list and the other runs 2 Dimachaeron.”

          So you’re saying when they don’t use the units from the list above, and instead use supplements and FW – Nids work just fine. But isn’t using stuff not in the book, you know, “helping” the book?

        • babelfisk

          As a primary nid player, neither Mieotic spores or the 2 dimachaeron should be a game breaker vs any marine book, much less DE.

          Mass tyrants, yes, your basically out of luck with BA, but that is one build (and, in my opinion, one of the top ten builds in the game).

          If your marine list can handle 2+ land raiders or 2 knights, you can handle the dimachaeron’s. Kill the venomthrope first, then hit a single dima with every ap3 or better you have. He only has 6 T6 wounds, he will die eventually. Then repeat for the second one. If needed, feed them a tac squad or two to buy more shooting time.

          Spores are the same, only easier to kill.

    • Shiwan8

      The book is horrible. It’s a fact. There is so much wrong with it it’s ridiculous. The fact that a supplement and a formation together can win in tournaments does not change the fact that most of the things in that army make regular marines look awesome in comparison.

      • Frank Krifka

        While I’m in the habit of disagreeing with everything you say as a matter of principle; on this I have to agree with you.

        • Shiwan8

          Well, at least you admit it. 😀

      • Eric

        As much as I hate to admit it… on this one occasion, and this one occasion only, not everything you typed in this post was complete tripe.

        • Shiwan8

          If youd just get over your pride, you’d see that this is nothing new.

  • Brian Tallisker

    Haruspex doesnt need more WS, it needs more attacks, or for the extra attack-generating to work on every turn. Also, maybe a counter system, where eating things gets you feel no pain, like the Dimachaeron! 😀

    • Christopher A. Herrera

      “Unhinge jaw: Any rolls of 6 on the to hit roll instead resolve as a destroyer weapon attack”

      All I’m saying is they’re giving the D to everyone else. If they made THIS model the one in the nid lineup to do it, they’d probably even sell more of these guys.

      • Brian Tallisker

        That…. SOunds kinda neat, if it’s limited to infantry , Bulky and Very Bulky things. Dont really see this thing chowing down on a Stompa…

        • Shiwan8

          D-hit is a damage thing, not necessarily a “Gulp”.

  • Brian Tallisker

    Oh, and by the way… Crushing claws are fantastic on MC’s!

    • adamharry

      Thanks, I needed the laugh. The only MC’s that can get them are Carnifexes (str9), the Haurspex (which is mandatory) and the Tervigon (which probably shouldn’t be in CC unless something has gone wrong). They were fine last edition for the extra D3 attacks – now they aren’t needed…at least not for 15 points. The Carnifex is really the best platform for them – and the opportunity costs of taking Crushing Claws vs other options is too high. But if they work for you, /thumbs-up

      • Brian Tallisker

        Just saying, the Armourbane works wonders for haruspexes and tervigons. Dread-pods are a lot less scary when you got 2d6+7 to take it out.
        So yeah, glad you had a few laughs about it, but ill be over here cracking armour to my hearts content <3

        • adamharry

          Fair point – I just charge them with the same carnifexes. If the 12 devourer shots don’t do the trick, the D3 hammer of wrath + regular str 9 attacks does the trick. I also run my carnifexes in broods of at least 2. But hey – I’m genuinely glad they are working for you! keep on devouring for the ‘Nids!

        • babelfisk

          Keeping the Haruspex/Tervigon alive long enough to use the armorbane has always been my problem. By the time I get one into combat, they are normally down 2-3 wounds, then they take the hits from the dreadnought before they swing. Ends up feeling like a waste of points that could be better spent on gaunts to keep the dreadnought away from the Tervigon.

          It is good they work for you. Next time I run a big walking bug list, I’ll try them out again.

          • Brian Tallisker

            With big bugs, its always a MUST to bring shrouded and smaller bugs for a delicious 3+ invuln in the open. Screening models and all that. Slap a tervigon in an objective in cover, keep a venom or malan nearby…. Bamf! 😀
            Also, dreads dont have assault grenades, they hit last when charging into cover!

          • babelfisk

            Oh, agreed on the venom/malan. I feel that they are mandatory in any nid build, and that learning how to screen big bugs is the key to success with non-flying nid builds.

            I did not know that dreads don’t have assault grenades. Then again, I prefer to deal with dreads with e-grubs/hive guard, and mostly worry about being charged by knights.

  • Christopher A. Herrera

    How about making our hormies beasts? You’ve highlighted a lot of cool ideas, but one of the biggest problems in the tyranid book is SPEED.

    We’re so slow compared to most armies at crossing the board in any meaningful way. The only thing that can do it is our swooping flyers, which frankly don’t make good forward advancers to try and land combat because of that whole flight mode changing thing.

    But so many armies now have 0 problem moving a jetbike flat out or a bike flat out, or teleporting across the board during their turn. In an objective based game, that’s HUGE.

    But tyranid ground forces are not only limited to mid range firepower, but have to move the minimum 6 the entire time(and if you try to play swarm heavy, having ALL of those models move 6″ becomes a cluster@#*! fast on a board with any terrain on it- moving some stuff further ahead would help that some).

    This would also help make stuff like raveners and stealers valid. Because, all of the sudden they have things screening them, and providing target saturation, instead of having to sit back and wait for an opponent to walk into move+assault range. Which…if a unit is doing that intentionally, they’re probably some kind of unit they expect to tear through the ravener even if I get off the charge. If they’re smart anyways.

    And yes, we could take gargoyles. But they’re a fast attack slot which with crones can be a fairly crowded slot. Of course multiple detachments helps alleviate that, but also doubles up on HQ/troop requirements, something usually not a terribly big deal. Except, I consider gargoyles JUST points heavy enough that I’m not comfortable taking a lot of them except in the context of skyblight formation. Skyblight gives HUGE bonuses to the gargoyles, but forces you to take almost 300 points of MC’s(the two harpies) that are just terrible as it isn’t good anti-air, anti-armor, and is only effective at causing instant death on T4 models with a large blast- at ap 5. And it lacks the rule that the crone has to make it effective at vector strike via str buff(which if it had, it might actually be good).

    I agree on torrent for the most amazing paperweight in the world.

    • babelfisk

      Old school fleet. Run, then charge.

  • Bayne MacGregor

    And strangleweb miniatures haven’t been available since 2nd ed. I love my 2nd ed stranglewebs because the idea is cool, a way Tyranids capture prey alive to drag back to the digestion pools. So i add them to my fleshborer termagants… but they’ve never killed anything at all.
    But if people wanted to take them GW hasn’t sold those miniatures for the last 5 editions!

  • babelfisk

    So. Tyranids.

    The core book struggles due to lack of ability to kill armor, the ease of killing non flying MC’s for shooting oriented books, and general weaknesses of CC in the game. There are also some miscellaneous adjustments I think need made.

    Warning, this is going to be long.

    Fixes

    Anti armor.

    The thorax guns should be available to all MC’s. Currently they primary show up on flying Tyrants, in the form of E-grubs. Adding the option to run them to all of the walking MC’s makes those bugs more attractive, and giving them to the other two FMC’s adds some utility to them.

    Hive Guard and T-fexes need improved. The default idea is to push their BS up to 4, but I like the idea of giving them an extra shot instead. Make impaler and rupture cannons assault 3. This is fluffy for ‘nid’s tendency to go for volume over quality.

    Give the rupture cannon a special rule that improves the AP based on how many hits are made to reflect the fluff of the gun being an acid round that weakens armor followed by a penetrating round.

    I don’t like the shock cannon much, fluff, model, or rules wise. I would rather it was an oversized barbed strangler that shot e-grubs-make the model look like a Hive Guard scaled barbed strangler and give it a 36″ range. This makes it viable to run Hive Guard as a backfield gunline, hanging out with warriors and biovores.

    Finally, drop the WS of Hive Guard to 3. Hive Guard having a higher WS than BS annoys me.

    In CC, MC’s don’t handle armor as well as they should be able to, regardless if you go by fluff or gameplay standards. A Trygon or similar that makes it to CC should be able to kill non-walker/land raider level vehicles on the charge, and the way smash works now you get to choose between a few attacks that are too low S to do much, or removing one hull point.

    The easy fix to this is to give ‘nid (or all) MC’s re-rolls to armor pen vs vehicles when using melee attacks.

    Durability

    Nid’s have two durability issues: walking MC’s are easy to kill using current codexs, and mid toughness bugs get doubled out by S8, which is very common in current play. MC’s also have a vulnerability to instant death, but this can be by and large countered by careful play.

    I don’t like the idea of handing out invul saves to nid MC’s-for anything besides zoanthropes, invul’s seem contrary to the mass of expendable bodies thing that nids do. Instead, I suggest an across the board MC 6+ FnP that can be improved to a 5+ with an upgrade-cost it at 20-30 points, and let catalyst stack with it. Better access for 2+ saves would be nice as well-bringing back the armored carapace option on tyrants and making it available to other big bugs (fexes, trygons, tervigons) would be nice. The 30 point cost on it was reasonable.

    For warriors, raveners and shrikes, simply reduce the cost of the unit and the cost of the upgrades. Make the warrior platform have a base cost of 20 points instead of 30, and drop the cost on boneswords and sword/whips. at 55-60 points per model the nasty CC builds cost to much to loose to a melta gun. At 30 points per model it hurts much less, and enough bodies can be brought that you can loose half the squad before you get to CC and still get the job done. Drop the cost on the prime as well, it is absurd where it is now.

    For improving CC in general, I would give assault oriented nids 5th ed style fleet-run then charge. Make it a special rule that assault bugs get by default, and a purchasable upgrade for things like warriors and tyrants that can go either way.

    Miscellaneous Adjustments

    Scything Talons. Take them back to the way they were: one set, reroll 1’s in CC, two pair, reroll misses in CC. They were never overpowered. Making them AP 6 instead was so, so bad.

    Zoanthropes. I like them the way they are. I think the increased max squad size makes up for the multiple points of failure. Being 2W LD 10 insulates them from perils of the warp, so you can throw 6 or 7 dice at a single warp lance/blast with them.

    Pyrovores. Poor, poor pyrovores. Give them a Hive Guard stat line (W2, T6, Armor 4) and AP 3. The improved durability makes them viable walking or as objective campers, and the threat of 3 of them falling from the sky in a pod and removing a tac squad forces careful counterplay. While we are wishlisting, change the fluff from flamethrower to spray of acid-acid fits bugs better than flames.

    Crones and Harpies

    Crones are anti air, the flamer on them makes little sense. Allow them to a) hit flyers with the flamer (combined with the above suggestion to let all MC’s have e-grubs), or b) take away the flamer and let them assault flyers.

    Harpies don’t really need any changes, as the issues with Harpies has more to do with lack of need for the anti infantry role they fill than inability to do it. If Crones lose the flamer, give it to Harpies as an option.

    Trygon/Prime

    Make the tunnel actually work by letting units be dedicated to it-units chosen to go in the tunnel do not roll for normal reserves and automatically come in the turn after the Trygon does.

    If you want to make the tunnel good, either let Trygons DS turn 1, or permit units that use the tunnel to assault the turn the come in.

  • Wolfstone

    You might like to have a look on this link: http://www.warpshadow.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=18438

    There are some of my thoughts about how to fix the Nids.

  • Hivetyrant36

    As you can see from my name and portrait I love the Space Swarm. It is extremely hard to find a game winning play style in the current play state. Tyranids need something, and I’m sure everybody has thier own opinions (zthropes suck now, stealers cannot assault from outflank, and Tyrants no longer have a 3++ or 2+). WE NEED SOMETHING

  • TheFunnySide

    Lets just go over every unit in the dex and see why we bring flyrants and mawlictors
    HQ
    1)Deathleaper is a CC unit that cant survive due to a 5+ save and cant kill enough to make his points back because he pays for special rules that rarely matter
    2)Hive Tyrant is only good with wings else you wont make it into range for the 18” devourers neither will you live past turn 1
    3)Old one eye : more expensive carnifex with the same wounds and save….. and regen does nothing against competend shooting
    4)Swarmlord : super expensive super slow no durability
    5) Tervigon : got 6 nerfs compared to the last book you might
    as well bring a carnifex and 21 gaunts
    6)Tyranid prime cost double what orks and necrons pay for their primeEQ
    7)Tyrand guard just dont make a footTyrant fiable

  • TheFunnySide

    Fast attack:
    1)Tyranid Shrikes are too similar to raveners having synapse instead of beast
    2)Raveners have the exact same role as wraiths but have a third of their durability while not costing a third. They die to 6 bolter hits…
    they clearly need t5 4+ save without points increase
    3)skyslasher : t3w3 ;(
    4)gargoyles arent good in CC anymore since they lost auto wound on 6s to hit.Now they are a 50% more expensive gaunts
    5)Harpy: vector strike doesnt work, weapons are crap , close combat got gimped with no smash and no charge the turn you land
    If he could take 2 sets of Brainleech or his weapons was good…
    6)Hivecrone : Has up to 7 weapons he could use per turn….make Tyranids able to shoot every weapon they have…
    His trademark the S8 vector strike got gimped and flyers that kill flyers are horrible if you dont know your opponent in advance

  • Agent OfBolas

    maybe fix the Eldar and grav guns / chapter master instead of Tyranids that are quite cool?

  • tyrannic

    -Read the rules for Pinning and the Broodlord suggestion in #5 is already incorporated into the codex.
    -Rippers are good lol? Compare: Nurglings.
    -Flying rippers lol?
    -Would it really break the book if the Prime could have access to Venom Cannons, Barbed Stranglers, or Crushing Claws (remove Unwieldly and lower cost)?
    -Would it ruin the codex if the Fleshborer Hive was available to Hive Tyrants? What about giving it Rend (bugs crawling around) or Soul Blaze (too many bugs to squish)?
    -How about some good Bio-Artifacts…?
    -With Leviathan, the Synapse rules are essentially negated. Why even have them at this point?

  • Tynskel

    Flesh Hooks would work fine. Genestealers have BS 0, thus cannot fire.

  • Tynskel

    Torrent on Pyrovores in a Pod would be one of the more devastating units in the game. Come down turn 2+, move 6″ and have a 12″ threat range in practically any positioning of a Str 5 AP4 template weapon.

    • Shiwan8

      Yeah. That has a potential to kill 6 necron warriors before dying. Devastating.

      • Tynskel

        hah! not everything has a permanent 4+ save…

        • Shiwan8

          Some have 3+ and some have rerollable 2++, that is true.

          • Tynskel

            heavy flamers are not so good against robots.

          • Shiwan8

            Or against anything really. Their favorite targets go down with normal flamers almost just as well.

          • Tynskel

            Derp? Have you read the torrent rules? Flamers usually do not have a 18″ threat range…

          • Shiwan8

            And? It’s not the range that is their main problem. It’s that they are weak, slow and the flamer is like a warm breeze to the units it’s supposed to work against.

          • Tynskel

            no. You are only using Necrons as your example.
            Last time I checked, everyone has trouble with Necrons, except perhaps the new Eldar…

          • Shiwan8

            I’ll use what ever I like. Your authority over my actions is literally non existent. Necrons are vulnerable to melee units. That is the one thing they generally suck at.

            The fact is, even if pyrovores had torrent and were like mawlock, able to pop up where ever they please without much of a chance to die while doing it, they’d still suck because they have literally no valid targets.

          • Tynskel

            hahahah! you mean no valid high model count targets, in *your* meta.

  • garandras

    Wow.. Tyranids are no where near as bad as you think..

    For example Tryon holes are a must if you want to take a endless swarm.

    the only thing in your pissy rant that is correct.. is that Genestealers need assist grenades or equivalent rule.

    Giving pyros torrent sounds nice but then you are turning a situational unit into a pretty op one.

    Just learn how to play with the new nids and you will be fine.. just because the codex doesn’t match your play style doesn’t make it a bad codex

    • TheFunnySide

      So a Trygon tax makes the endless swarm better? or the other way , wait what?

      And considering the eldar D-flamers that come at the same prize point as a pyro, i cant bring myself see the opness.

      Flamer drops arent so special anyway then you can go wyvern on somebody

    • adamharry

      I’ve played quite a few games with my Nids, I even have batt reports of them on our youtube channel – my lists aren’t terribly competitive but I enjoy playing them. I’m simply listing units and fixes that would make sense and give players more options to bring different models to the board. Most of the things I’ve listed I haven’t seen on the table from any other Nid player because they are that bad. So I’m sorry my Pissy rant got in your cheerios and you’re having a bad day.

      And there are quite a few people in these comments that actually agree that the base book IS as bad as I think. But that’s, just like, my opinion, man.

  • Andrew Marshall

    Noooo, my dex isn’t OP. Boo hoo

  • Andrew Marshall

    I think chimeras need armour 14 too! Because…. Uh….. They’d be more reliable??

  • Tynskel

    2nd Edition Bugs used to get a power that made bugs really hard to kill: catalyst. It made them have the equivalent of Tactical Dreadnought armor.

    Personally, I think this power should grant EW and +1 T. Maybe even FNP.

  • Stepan Serdyuk

    Disagree about claws, haruspex, raveners and warriors.

    Seriously, if a weapon can destroy 260pts tank in one shot, why would 40pts infantry model survive it?

  • Eric

    A couple possible solutions for the Warriors could be, Either makeing the Prime an Upgrade character for the Brood, or having a rule along the lines of S1-S7 deals 1 wound, 8-9 deals 2 wounds and S10 deals 3 wounds.

    Genestealers will never be viable unless they get the ability to assault the turn they come in, or grenades. Your Psychic ability is an interesting one, perhaps give the BL the ability to “buy” a psycher ability to do what you want him to do. Insta-assault, psudo-grenades, or character hunting.

  • Eric

    I’ve always wanted to play a Warrior heavy list, but the relative weakness of the warrior model when compared to the cost/price of the model has prevented me from starting one

  • Drosseph Stalin

    Ive been playing nids since 3rd and here is my .02

    Im surprised no one has commented on how crappy Shadow in the warp has become. My buddies GK use to fear my nids. Now they laugh in their face as they burn them with psychic fire. For a psychic presence thats supposed to drive people insane, a small minus to leadership doesnt seem to fit that description with how current psychic powers are manifested. I think it would be interesting to see Synapse work as a buff for nids and a debuff to enemy units located inside of synapse range. Maybe a minus to leadership to all units and causing warpcharges to be harder to harness for any psyker within SiTW?

    It would also be nice to have a wider variety of toughness for some of the larger MCs. Fluff wise it makes sense that a tyranofex have a higher toughness than a tervigon which is a giant baby factory but thats just me. Also something that i have discussed with some friends is making more tyranids units beasts. For example hormagaunts bounding leap rule feels pretty weak especially compared to some of the outrageous things that can be done now with battlefocus for eldar or dune strider with skitarii. Why not just make hormagaunts beasts? On that note Genestealers i think would also do really well as beasts if they had some form of assault grenades.

    The EW issue would definitely be a benefit considering that almost all of our units can suffer from ID including the swarm lord and even the FW dimacherion (sp?) can be id. I dont think EW from synapse is the answer but what do i know.

    I would also like to mention that the current rules for biovores firing and mine placement isnt great especially if you have three in one brood.

    Currently alot of the mcs are over costed for what they offered in comparison to alot of other armies. Others have brought that point up and i totally agree.

    The prime is over costed for what it does.

    Can anyone plz tell my why tyrant guard even have a BS if they dont have any guns?

    I think the crone and harpy should be able to inflict d3+1 hits from vector striking.

    the nids psychic table needs to be redone. Its not terrible but its far from being good and considering how some armies get alot of flexibility it would be nice to see more nid specific powers that arent watered down powers from other psychic disciplines.

  • Eric

    Shadow in the Warp is lack luster for what it is supposed to do. Instead of a pathetic minus to leadership how about one of the following:
    a). Enemy Psychers in range generate less warp charges if they are in range
    b). Nids generate additional charges for each enemy psycher in range
    c). Nids get a +1 to DTW for each enemy psycher in range.

  • wibbling

    Your argument over zoanthropes applies equally to Pink horrors.

    Every army has less than ideal weapons. It is what adds to their character.

  • GozOfMetal

    i think the tyranids need more more fixies.
    1) hormagaunts can run+assault: they must be the fastest unit in the codex able to give the rest of the army the time to move in the field
    2) mawlocs digs: thinking about the fact i spend 140 on 2-3 hits s6 ap2 usable in the whole game i feel dumb… the mawloc must one turn come out and deal dmg and the turn after, if hes still alive, he deals dmg diving the ground again. this is the only way ha can be worth, since if he assault is “lol, plz remove”
    3) genestealers and ymgarls: enough said, since they dont charge they are uselss so… faster movement? deepstrike+assault? flank+assault?
    4) tyranids in general: this army is based on 2 things… assault and MCs… ASSAULT! make more weapons usefull to make the enemy shoot badly, so the army survives and assault grenades on every unit (it make no sense a creature born to EAT finds difficulty in moving through terrains)
    5) swarmlord: … reading the backgroud this must be an enormous creature… its still tall as an hive tyrant and he SUCKS. no armor 2+, no invul vs shots, no re-rolls, not enough buffs to the army, no regeneration, no better guards. hes just a big tyrant… with nothing more then 2 stupid rules…
    6) lictors: OMG!!! the rule says “they dont scatter..” this means they are moving invisibile in the battlefield… WHY CANT THEY ASSAULT!? THEY ARE STANDGING IN FRONT OF UUUUUU!!
    7) carnifexes: more wounds, they are just a punching ball right now, cheaper, its a miracle if they charge at 4th turn if in unit
    8) MCs: make em all cheaper of worth to be palyed. atm they have no range and no suvivability to act more then 2 turns.
    9) tervigon: give her back to us plz

    i think there are the poits bols missed in his list…
    discuss

    • GozOfMetal

      i forgot…
      schyting talons: these are an insult. no re rolls at all is horrible. mostly on MCs, since their WS is LOW and the dont have any chance to re roll. they have BIG arms…

  • sleeplessknight

    Here’s an idea for the nids:

    Stop making them eat each other on a bad instinctive behavior roll.

    The current codex has the most punishing instinctive behavior table compared to the ones in past codecies.

  • NagaBaboon

    Genestealers need some howling banshee treatment. you pay a fortune for WS 6 when everyone knows Attacks, Strength, Toughness and Saving throws are way more important in close combat, and Genestealers are mediocre to poor in all of these regards.