Fantasy WarGaming Competition – Mantic vs GW

spy-vs-spy

The War for fantasy wargamer hearts and minds has begun.  Come see the latest word from Mantic’s Ronnie Renton.

 

Age of Sigmar is only days away, copies are on trucks, and Warhammer Fantasy players around the world are getting their first taste of what the new system will bring.  Across town in Nottingham, Mantic Games is rolling out the second edition of their own game of fantasy battles Kings of War – AT THE SAME TIME.

The industry is going to see a fight for the heart and minds of thousands of fantasy wargaming customers this July.  Look for news and product announcement from both Games Workshop and Mantic games in the day ahead.  With the almost complete reboot of Warhammer Fantasy into Age of Sigmar, the market is wide open in a way it hasn’t been in decades.

Whatever happens in the days ahead as both of these competing systems vie for the attention of the wargaming players one thing is certain – the consumer will win.  More choice and price competition is always good for the market!

Here’s the latest post from Mantic’s Ronnie Renton Facebook page to coyly set the tone:

ronnie-renton-7-1-2015

 

In one corner we have the mighty 700 pound gorilla – Games Workshop with Age of Sigmar.  The new game will have the muscle and retail division of GW behind it.  The miniatures will be top-notch and there will be a full line of follow-on products behind it.

…however, it’s not exactly what the existing Warhammer playerbase was expecting.

 

age of sigmar

In the other corner we have up and coming plucky Mantic Games.  Kings of War is being relaunched in it’s updated 2nd edition, and now has a large stable of armies. It’s early days are behind it.  There is an add-on armybook in the works to support “armies we do not yet make” (that may happen to closely resemble things like vermin-men, lizard-people, and the like…).  While Kings of War is certainly not a clone of Warhammer Fantsy 8th’s ruleset, it is much closer to it in overall game philosophy than the new 4-page Age of Sigmar ruleset is.

KoW2ndEditionGamersEdition450x4501

It looks like the boxing match has begun! Which fighter are you betting on?

  • vlad78

    If they had a renaissance like human army, I would buy KOW right away.

    • Lewis Everitt

      What if they had rules that supported a renaissance like human army?

    • Aezeal

      If I had humans from GW Id wait to see what that faction ends up like.
      Then I’d try AoS, the rules are free nowanyway so why not try it 😀
      If Ididn’t like those rules I’d go back to 8th edition.

      • vlad78

        Why not use GW minis? Because I find the new fluff godawful and I don’t like high fantasy humans.

        I love the concept of pseudo historical human army fighting magic and monsters with wits and steel and black powder and as few magic as possible, I love the original concept of wfb and I would certainly not uphold what GW made of it lately.

        Give me pikes and shotte and artillery and armor clad knights and watch me fight dragons and other magical abominations.

        • Goret

          Sounds like you want to play KOW…

          • Valeli

            Sounds like I do too.

            The only difficulty will be finding people to play it with. GW had a really awesome brick and mortar thing that always set me up with people to play with and meet. Although in-store gaming got pushed to the side a bit in recent years, that was always a huge plus for them.

            Of course, it doesn’t help them keep me if they drop support for the type of game I want entirely. But that doesn’t mean I have people to start up the competitor’s game with either :(.

            I’ll google around a bit though. Maybe i can find something.

          • rrooster1977

            If enough people are making the switch to KoW like yourself eventually I think finding games will be really easy.

        • YES!!! That was the whole apeal of The Empire in fantasy, and why I built an army for 8th edition. Unlike many of the mass battle haters who rage quit fantasy when 8th edition rolled around and actually made them fight a battle instead of just exploit certain rules to win I got back into the game because of the changes in 8th. I’ve never wanted to play warma-hordes, why is GW trying to make me?

          Bring on the KOW I say.

        • Aezeal

          You just whining and not paying attention. Nowhere has it been said you have to play with the superhumans of sigmars direct followers…. there are other human factions. Cannons are probably there still too.

          • Valeli

            I don’t think /anyone/ believes you have to play as them.

            The issue (one of them, at least) is that the character of the world (and your games) is fundamentally altered with them as a main focus.

            Some people don’t like that.

            Other more substantial issues clearly center on game mechanics and changes thereto. Nothing wrong with the new direction in and of itself, but plenty of people who’ve invested 1000’s of dollars into their armies don’t want to abandon what they bought in to.

          • Knight_of_Infinite_Resignation

            unfortunately the setting is the weakest part of KoW, IMHO its not very inspiring. Its mostly derivative and the bits that are original are, well, odd. However the game itself is very good and works very well as a catch all, setting neutral set of rules.

          • rrooster1977

            It’s still a young system and I think the background will fill in with time. They said during the second edition kickstarter that after it’s release they’re going to run a global campaign and the gaming communities battles will play a role in further shaping the background. You have to admit that’s pretty exciting.

          • Me

            Can you please, please except that some people don’t consider AoS to be the best thing since sliced bread?

    • gluteusmaximus77

      You can easily use a renaissance style army in the Kingdoms of Men list
      https://manticforum.com/forum/kings-of-war/kings-of-war-2-beta/232333-v2-core-lists

      Or the The League of Rhordia (An alliance of human city states and the halfling shires)
      https://manticforum.com/forum/kings-of-war/kings-of-war-2-beta/230101-new-army-lists-for-playtesting-updated-02-07-2015

    • Andrew McColl

      Because the units in KoW are generic, you can easily recreate a renaissance army using the Kingdoms of Men. Load up on units of Pikemen and rifle-armed missile units and you’re well on your way.

    • RG Allen

      Currently in Beta Testing we find the League of Rhordia which is comprised of Renaissance humans, and halfling allies. Human contingent comes complete with cannons, multi-barrelled organ guns (that don’t actually mis-fire,) spearmen, pole arms troops, landsknechts with zwei-hander swords, pikemen, knights, crossbow and handgunners.

  • Lewis Everitt

    I like Mantic, the miniatures seem to be getting better all the time and the price is right. Added to that they have one of my all time favourite rules writers on board, Alessio Calvatore.

    • Thomas Gardiner

      Man, Alessio was great back in the day, if he’s writing for KoW I’ll definitely be checking it out!

      • Purple-Stater

        I think Alessio’s better now. “Back in the day” he did idiotic things like saying Unit A is too powerful for their point cost, but optional Unit B was made more expensive to make up for it.

        • Well thats subjective as far as if he is better. His first attempt at Kings of war wasn’t very good. So here is hoping he made a better game out of it.

      • He wrote the first one and it was IMO his worst work ever. A snails pace game and boring. It just lacked so much action. I hope he stepped his game up for the second edition he was always one of my favorite.

  • Mike LaHay

    Kind of reminds me of D and D 4th edition and the rise of Pathfinder, long live Pathfinder:)

    • ChubToad

      Well Ptahfinder didn’t use the oportunity to improve. instead they went and ruined a very good game system, with all the supplements they released like there’s no tomorrow. I never went to PF and after 5th I am gald I didn’t.

      • Porky_Poster

        One huge benefit to those years was the return to the earlier editions, people leaving fourth and Pathfinder to go back to the roots and heart of it all, and make new material for the earlier editions by blending the classic and the modern. That spirit and the whole movement seem to have done such a good job at a renewal that fifth looks almost to be a kind of compromise, or even legacy product – it’s almost as if they’ve stepped back to let the player base and smaller producers take over.

        • ChubToad

          Agreed. I would add that the whole industry was affected by this transition. WotC going back to the roots is the biggest example of this. They realized that players want quality, not quantity. Pathfinder on the other hand, is still the same, and that’s why people are leaving that system.

      • Erik Setzer

        I’m not sure they “ruined” the system. That was kind of the point of the D20 system, you could do all kinds of stuff for it. Rather than two hundred different publishers releasing various optional rules and stuff, they just had one company releasing a bunch of rules. Though you can still use all that other D20 System stuff in the game, too.

        I do prefer D&D 5th edition, because it’s a pretty clean system that covers a lot of basics well and leaves things open-ended enough to not have the rules getting in the way of the story, but I get why a lot of people like Pathfinder and the D20 system in general. (That system got so popular they even made D20 Modern, with D20 Future and Past expansions, a D20 version of Star Wars, the DarkMatter setting converted to D20 Modern, someone did a D20 Western that was actually pretty good, etc. It had its merits.)

        • I have all those books lol, d20 fo life.

        • ChubToad

          True, but therein lies its fault iMO. i never liked the d20 system, specially with the open source stuff that ran around for so many years. Yes that gave many companies, the opportunity to make great supplements. but more often than not, the great pieces were drowned by miriad other mediocre books and rule sets. WotC realized this and went back full circle with 5th. It was that or go back to 2nd, which actually remains a great alternative to the d20 system.

          • Porky_Poster

            Remember that one person’s mediocre might be another person’s marvel. I’m not sure it can hurt to have a lot of producers engaged, pondering the problems, exploring the range of possibilities and even honing the whole in a way one company can’t do so easily.

            Imagine something like 40K with third-party producers, even if they were limited to something like making semi-official supplements for GW-produced core books. We’d see things we haven’t seen for years but whole new potential as well. With, say, renewable licence periods, the more controversial interpretations could just be allowed to pass from the shelves and the canon, allowing GW to maintain a tighter form.

      • Pathfinder didn’t use the opportunity to improve? They took D&D 3.5 and essentially made it D&D 3.75. Many things were changed in the core books, and sourcebooks only add things.

    • SacTownBrian

      Don’t forget that Pathfinder is a licensed D20 product. WotC is getting their cut. Maybe GW should have licensed out WFB to another company that wanted to keep it alive, like Catalyst has done for Battletech.

  • Slaanesh_Devotee

    Oh it’s just so difficult to choose, I don’t know whi.. Games Workshop.

    • Lewis Everitt

      Have fun when they retcon slaanesh.

      • Slaanesh_Devotee

        D:

        Bite your tongue~!

        • Gary Findlay

          Hes got a point, Slaanesh is getting removed. Its so on the cards or books.

          • Slaanesh_Devotee

            Not absolutely necessarily~

          • Lewis Everitt

            but kind of likely since sex, perversion and nudity is so much more offensive than mutilation, killing and skulls etc. If it isn’t retconned expect to see it watered down to mediocrity, if you’re lucky.

          • Porky_Poster

            Are you sure about those relative levels of offence? One option in your first sentence is more or less necessary for human life, another often goes hand in hand with that process.

          • Lewis Everitt

            I don’t believe it is more offensive, but it does seem to be in the eyes of many.

          • V10_Rob

            Doesn’t have to be in the eyes of the many. Just has to be in the eyes of a vocal few.

            Imagine some bible thumper stumbling across these demons of debauchery toys for kids. Or more likely, an SJW has a meltdown because its somehow exploitive of women…ish beings, or portrays a transsexual (or whateversexual Slaanesh is) as an evil god. They raise a s#!^storm on Facebook and Twitter. Corporation caves within days to a mob of minimum-attention-span clicktavists who never were and never will be their customers.

          • Marky

            Sad, but true.. I however would never buy from gw again if I thought they had bowed to pressure from religious fundamentalists.

          • Mass appeal for kids requires simplified plot points. There is a reason Slaneesh has essentially never been added to any computer games and why they have received next to no new models for years.

            Blood = simple
            Plague = simple
            Change = complicated
            Lust & Cocaine = super complicated.

            So yeah, that retconn is a-coming.

          • Slaanesh_Devotee

            There were noise marines in a Dawn of War game.

            And there are nice Slaanesh daemon models.

            Tzeentch can be done by emphasising magic, and Slaanesh can be quick or whatever.

            I don’t mind changes though, just so long as a Chaos god doesn’t get totally removed.

            We’ll see, I suppose. But I’ll still prefer GW uber alles.

          • Marky

            3 letters GTA

          • Stan

            Just like killing off IP and a mass/ranked combat game wasn’t absolutely necessary in order to promote a skirmish game?

  • ChubToad

    The only positive thing that GW can take from this, is getting rid of all those rage quitters that flood every Internet forum crying doom all over the place.

    • Lewis Everitt

      Yeah! Screw potential customers! Who needs them?

      • ChubToad

        But this is the internet. If it says that KoW is the new black it must be true!

        • Kisdra

          You are mistaken, he is absolutly right. Take my example : I don’t have any WHFB army, and during last year, my friends were pushing for I buy one. I am still planning to buy one, but it will be in Mantic store, for they are now those who bring us the best system for WHFB-style armies, because I can assure you that this new AoS will be useless with one of my friends 10000 points dwarf Throng.

          If I want to play a game that in its essence is 40k-like, I play 40k, I already have 3 legions for Horus Heresy at home. Wanting to play with regiments, subtle movement style and all the elements of WHFB gameplay is not wanting something old school or anything, its wanting playing something différent. The balance in GW offering was almost perfect, which explain their success. Now they threw up their most traditionnal wargaming system, the balance is no more. It’s not raging or anything, it’s just the facts, and oblviously, they will loose all the customers that had in WHFB the system that had the core game mechanics they liked to play.

          • ChubToad

            I’d say play before give such an opinion. Very simple. I don’t go avoiding sex just because I read in the forums that it’s a nasty business. or should I?

          • Purple-Stater

            If you’re not into S&M, you don’t pick up the hooker dressed as a dominatrix.

            Continuing the metaphor… my primary hooker has retired, so I’m going to try out this other one from down the block, that just so happens looks almost exactly like her, rather than the stuttering hunchback that filled the vacancy on the old corner.

          • ChubToad

            Ah right! Except the stuttering hunchback, is not what you say it is because you actually just heard it is. Better go look for youserlf right?

          • Purple-Stater

            Of course I looked for myself. I would hate to form an opinion based on ignorance.

            Back to proper phrasing: it’s absolutely ludicrous to expect people, who bought into a rank-and-file historical-style game, to happily start playing a skirmish-style game instead. I can totally see the appeal of AoS for players of, say 40K, Malifaus, or WarMaHordes, but what about it is supposed to inspire WHFB players?

            In any case, you’re asking people to try a new game because an old favorite is going away; and they are, they’re trying KoW.

          • ChubToad

            But that’s exactly my point. With so little information, besides the rules it’s very hard to actually form an opinion on the whole mess that AoS can be.
            It’s easier to cry wolf and jump ship just because you don’t know what’s coming, and the internet crowd does a good job in hating whatever new stuff comes out.
            Now granted, if the game truly sucks, then i’ll also jump right into KoW. But that’ll be after I try the whole AoS game, that is after I play a few games in skirmish mode, in Fantasy mode, and see what actually happen to existing armies.

          • Purple-Stater

            To be fair, the rules are rather the most important part, and we’ve known those for around a week now. Sure, I’ll be giving AoS a shot, but only because one guy in my group loves skirmish-style and is really excited for it. I’m only willing to do it because the buy-in cost is zero, but I’ll give it a chance.

          • V10_Rob

            It’s not simply that they’re replacing WHFB with AOS. I think simmering dissatisfaction has come to a boil for many, and this seems like a good time to cut losses or indulge in a mid-life crisis of sorts.

            Say I’ve been amassing an army (or 3) for years. That’s a lot of time and money invested. It’s been fun, mostly. There’s also been plenty of frustration, with balance and rules. But I suck it up, because I still have some fun, and because I’m psychologically incapable of walking away from my investment. Which of these carries more weight is difficult to say at times, though. Now they’ve totally overhauled the game I’m invested in. Well, if my investment has been mostly wiped out, and my fun is dueling with my frustration, what’s keeping me here?

            GW wants their players to try a new game, that they assure us is so much more awesome than our old investment. They want people to take them on faith, but their goodwill is in the toilet. That goodwill of the community is critical for making a smooth transition, because people will suppress their fears and give you the benefit of the doubt.

            Players are coming to the conclusion that since they’re being effectively forced to move to a new game anyway, they might as well take a serious look at what other games are up to.

          • Yoorba

            Can you understand that he os switching because it is entirely a different game from what he os wanting? GW cut the rank and file and he is looking for that. And AoS may be awesome, bit it’s not rank and file.

            It os like “I want skirmish high fantasy, I’ll try AoS”. But no!, why don’t you try Infinity instead!. Because Infinity is not frigging high fantasy skirmish game.

          • Kisdra

            We actually don’t even need to play, we know the content of the rules, and it’s that way : a skirmish game replace a mass-battle regiment based game. I fully agree that it might eventually be an excellent skirmish system, but it’s obvious that it will not do the job at all for those who expect the kind of gameplay that WHFB was delivering. For that, you need a system that keep the core gameplay elements like regiments, tactical movements, etc., and that’s what Kings of War does.

            Again, it’s not getting upset at Games Workshop just for getting upset. There are actual Warhammer players who enjoy what the gaming experience the game delivered so far based on precise gameplay elements, and when you look at Age of Sigmar rules, there is absolutly no way they find themselves in this new game if they still want something that is not skirmishes.

          • jeff white

            no, but you might avoid sex with a partner who – rumor has it – stinks, now wouldn’t you.

  • Kostas Fnord Dagres

    No sense , even the ones raging against AOS will play it ,big blocks rank and file battles are old system with restrictive gameplay .GW in AOS combine units with personality which every model is really important and mass battles without the unrealistic rank and file,the combination of Warmahordes style with mass battles gameplay is the most modern and deep strategy game.Remember my words,even haters will play AOS.

    • Lewis Everitt

      Mark my words, if you can understand them that is. Also, no they won’t.

      • skillmatic

        I’m totally not playing AoS and it’s not a rage quit, I’m getting out while I can. I don’t want to play 40k in a fantasy setting. I wanted complex rules and strategy. I wanted vast blocks of infantry! I shelled out big bucks for a VC army when The End Times came out after quitting Fantasy four years ago. Now I feel taken advantage of literally with this horse crap they are pushing out now!

        • HailofBullets

          ^^ This!

        • nurglitch

          What if I told you that you can still have big blocks of infantry?

          • deris87

            If you can show me where I missed the rules for fighting in ranked blocks I’ll eat my hat. You have to pile in = no ranked combat.

          • nurglitch

            Look at the ranges of weapons. You’ll want to fight in tight ranks if you’re going to maximize the number of attacks against opposing units. While you’re going that, you might as well rank up to move, which means that you’re going to pile-in in formation.

          • Me

            Ehh no you can’t.
            of course you can put your models in block formation, but without rules for flanking…why would you?
            Is it really that hard to understand?

          • nurglitch

            Have you considered that the rules organically favour flanking without needing an explicit bonus for doing what you should be doing anyways?

        • CoffeeGrunt

          What if I told you GW haven’t been systematically burning 8th Edition rulebooks, so you are still able to play the game…

          • anon32654987

            Not in their stores you won’t.

          • Jonathan Lowbridge

            Actually, our local GW store (Aberdeen, the “old dinosaur” of a Battle bunker that is run by Scott with about 15 tables) is running a full year of WHFB.

          • How does playing an old game which is no longer supported by the manufacturer a solution to anyone’s problem? This game isn’t like D&D, it actually requires active support from the manufacturer to make things work in the long term.

            Will some people keep playing 8th? Sure we will. For a bit, maybe a year even. But it won’t drive any sales or keep our interests. KoW now has them.

          • CoffeeGrunt

            But if you use GW minis with KoW rules, then surely GW are still making money and thus the point is moot?

          • Purple-Stater

            Not really, people leaving GW for Mantic aren’t doing it because they absolutely never want to give GW another penny. New gamers trying out KoW are more likely to buy actual Mantic models. Certainly that won’t be 100%, but it’s a start. I have five WHFB armies which will give me an excellent start with KoW, but I have long wanted a proper classical Undead army, which I willl most likely do with all Mantic models. For Mantic, that’s long-term planning. Whereas GW considers long-term to mean anything not in this financial quarter.

          • rrooster1977

            I started getting into KoW in 2012 because I liked their zombie models better. I tried the system and liked it better. I have still been playing both since then but in the last 3 years with selling and buying and building armies my 6 fantasy armies have gone from mostly GW minis to mostly Mantic minis. It won’t be the same for everyone but it will be for some.

          • Me

            At a GW store? Are you sure about that?

        • Mike Parker

          Sounds like a rage quit to me.

          • Purple-Stater

            Sounds like you’re the type of person that calls people “haters” for daring to say they simply don’t like something.

            If somebody plays a game specifically because they like a certain dynamic, then it’s patently stupid to expect them to be interested in playing another game that ignores that dynamic completely. It’s like saying “Oh, you like 12 yr. old single malt Scotch? Here, try this Bud Light!”

    • deris87

      Nope. I can tell you right now unless a point system magically emerges in the unreleased Warscrolls, that they just forgot to mention in the army building rules, I’m not even going to demo it. If I wanted to do the work of balancing the whole game myself I’d make my own game.

      • Shardak

        The saddest thing is Games Workshop used to have a number of really fun – well regarded Skirmish level games. None of them were perfect and they all had problems at a highly competitive level, but they all held together and really fun elements.

        They were Gorkamorka, Necromunda and Mordheim. They killed support for them off a couple of years ago after spending years trying to pretend they didn’t exist.

        • Porky_Poster

          There must be a logic or a grand strategy behind it, even if it is proving tricky to identify.

          • ChubToad

            But it’s easier to critizise something you don’t have the complete picture of. It’s the internet after all.

          • deris87

            We have the whole army composition rules. Can you point out for me the part where it mentions building armies of equivalent points values?

          • rrooster1977

            Yeah clearly it’s easier to criticize something you don’t have a clear picture of. Especially if it is something made by a different manufacturer and you wanna go the route of mindless subservience instead of finding the type of system you want to play.

          • deris87

            Sure, it’s Unbound and “We’re not a game company” taken to the Nth degree. It’s throwing out all semblance of balance for the sake of reducing barriers to model purchases.

          • Nameless

            honestly I would love to believe that, to believe that Age of Sigmar is the culmination of years of planning. but given that they didn’t tell their writers the plan to end the warhammer world while they where writing the end times novels…

            added to this and worst of all, the complete lack of communication with the player base. I think Incompetence is Games workshops only plea

        • Sure, I mean if you throw enough things at the wall then something is bound to stick isn’t it?

    • anon32654987

      Nah, fantasy had me with good looking miniatures and rank&file combat, now one of those is gone, from one system that is.

      If I can play with the same miniatures I’ve been collecting for years in a different game system that still allows rank&file, I’d rather jump ship than play an even more dumbed down 40k.

      • Kostas Fnord Dagres

        Fantasy with rank and files made me bored and sell 2 4k point armies after i played some warmahordes games , i want to feel “pain” when i lose even 1 model,i want more freedom to movement and sight,i want heroes and lords to have their unique abilities and not common items and magic and if AOS can give me all that with 100-150 model massive battles i will love it.

        • anon32654987

          If it bores you then why waste money on it?
          Sounds like your problem, not the setting one.

          GW trashed a good system instead of fixing it in the hopes of attracting warmahordes players, but didn’t even have the decency of giving it rules.
          Warhamordes players will be sticking with their game, hell I suggest you do too.
          It’s going to be difficult to find someone else to play a 150 models AoS battle, even more of a headache to try and balance out the armies and by the time you’ve fielded everything instead of a beer&pretzels game you’ll be playing a bleach&painkillers one.

          • Kostas Fnord Dagres

            First do you realize 70% of today warmahordes players are former wfb competitive players that saw 8th as a childish no brain game ? Second how i wasted any money when i sold two armies of 4k points and kept only woc ,is exactly the opposite,i didnt buy even a single color the last 2 years.

          • Again I’ve never understood this argument as having played 7th edition fantasy I can attest that it was an entirely NON-tactical game. Whoever charged struck first and killed everything, and only 3 armies could win. Yawn.

          • Striker8

            Oh boy, 70% of less than 5%( and more realistically it probably no more than 1% of gw players were ever the competitive type) really says a lot doesn’t it? NOT!!!!
            News flash bucko, most of the PP players also play other games like GW, just like most GW players tend to play other games as well. Stop trying to foist your own bias as a fact!

    • NagaBaboon

      Unrealistic rank and file? You know historically wars were fought that way right?

      • Chad Underdonk

        Yes, but not really. After the age of the Greek Hoplites and the Roman Legionaires most armies didn’t fight in disciplined mass bodies. Yes they massed, and charged, and fought, but the melees tended to be much more varied and not at all forming straight lines and deep ranks.

        • Porky_Poster

          That’s partly why the approach to units used by KoW is such a useful one. If the unit is more forest than trees, it’s more naturally modelled free of the limitations of individual bases.

          Chalk one up for Mantic?

          • Chad Underdonk

            Time will tell…

        • NagaBaboon

          The Romans did conquer most of Europe with that system so it can’t be that useless. Also they weren’t the only people who used it, the Vikings did as did many other western armies, they at least approached like that because staying close and clustering their shields offered better protection against archers and it was literally the only way infantry stood any chance against cavalry.

          Those armies that didn’t rank and file did tend to stay pretty close knit up until the final impact and the rank and file system in Warhammer represented this sort of intermingling crush of two forces as well as a bunch of random models ever did, it is an imperfect representation of war but so is every other system.

        • Nicklas Falck

          Pardon me sir , I do not by any means
          want to offend you but I vehemently disagree with your statement.

          Formation fighting takes many forms but
          did not disappear with the fall of Rome it simply changed form.
          Shiledwalls, Svinfyrdar etc are formations of men usually more then 2
          lines deep and a broken formation was as much a death sentence as it
          had been for the hoplite.

          The Frankish kingdom came to dominate
          500-700 because of its effective armed forces fighting in a
          germanised roman way.

          It is a bit of an historicism to view
          formation fighting as a purely roman/greek affair, Fighting in
          formation would be as relevant from the shield wall at Hasting to the
          Franco Prussian war.

          And once again sir I do not insinuate a
          lac of knowledge, simply I am courteous as to how you have come to
          this conclusion and would love to have answers.

          Regards Nicklas Falck

        • Bobsyouruncle

          The landskets fought in tight formation in the late 15th early 16th century as did the Swiss , so did the pike block formations in the 30 years war and english civil wars of the 17th century . In the 18th and early 19th century from Culludon to Waterloo troops bayonet fought and gave fire in tight shoulder to shoulder formations and the Zulu nation wiped out a British army armed with just spears and tight formations as late as 1879.

        • edendil

          That is total rubbish.
          All successful armies fought in formation, right up until ww1.
          Ranked miniatures games are an abstraction of formations – in that formations in the real world were rarely perfect and didnt necessarily survive contact with the enemy. But they were still the ideal that was being striven for. And the better and more disciplined the formations of an army, the more likely it was to win.

      • What the Hell

        History is way too unrealistic.

        They don’t even mention the Emp’ra

    • silashand

      Not even…

    • Nameless

      I am personally not looking forward to Age of Sigmar, that having been said I will play it a few times. not to be hypocritical but to give the game a chance to surprise me. I would suggest every one else dreading the new game do the same (providing Games Workshop does a passable job providing lists for the old armies).

      What puts me off more than the rules (I am not a fan of what I have read and hope a lot of the leaks where not the finalised rules set) but the idea that there will be no new models for non chosen armies. the lore and the background that was the reason I collected several armies is simply gone, to be replaced with proto-spacemarines fighting proto-chaosmarines.

      but I will give it a chance, if a) there are rules for my Brettonians to use and b) I can find someone else who is willing to try things and c) we can work out some possibly way to balance a game

      • Striker8

        You see that’s your personal choice in “giving it a chance.” I personally don’t see a reason to do so when it just doesn’t have the elements I’m looking in a fantasy themed game.

        I liked the previous incarnation of Fantasy because of the massed blocks of troop and regimented army style, for the large battles, the NEED to actually maneuver for position. This new claptrap has none of that.

        I could of played any number of fantasy themed skirmish games when I started Fantasy but didn’t because they didn’t have what I wanted then and I still don’t want that now.

        So why in the name of anything that is holy would I subject myself to playing a game that has nothing to it other than theme that I actually enjoy just because you think I need to give it a chance.

        • Nameless

          I am with you on most of those points. rules wise I have seen nothing that I like in the age of sigmar leaks. I have two fantasy skirmish games in Anima tactics and my old Lotr forces that have had a bit of a dusting off recently so I can’t see any reason to splash out on a travesty of a game that doesn’t feel any need to try and ensure both players have an equal chance to win.

          however, firstly it might be the first time that Brettonia has seen a rules update since storm of chaos some 13 years ago. and secondly, possibly more importantly, it will cost me maybe an hour and there are worse things to do for an hour.

    • Valeli

      Yeah. Sure I’ll play it. … except for the part where I won’t.

      Regiments and movement are restrictive? I guess, in a sense. But that doesn’t mean restrictions are a bad thing, and it doesn’t mean there isn’t a large bunch of people who like playing with that.

      #MarkMyWords

  • Majere613

    Classy.

  • darthken

    Kings of War all the way

  • euansmith

    Given that Mantic kickstarted KoW 2.0 last year, I think their timing of its eventual release coinciding with AoS is probably entirely accidental. Taking a more active approach to advertising it at this time is just good marketing.

    • ChubToad

      I’m amazaed that they didn’t kickstarted this release too. They’ll kickstart their mothers if given the chance. So much easy money on one platform.

    • Graeme Donaldson

      I’d say it looks more like GW planned this collision more than Mantic. It does look very rushed from their side whereas Mantic have been quite open that KoW was coming out this month since the Kickstarter.
      I really like what’s happening with AoS so I’ll be playing that, but most likely I’ll also be playing KoW for when I want big battles. I’ll pick the models I want from both companies (Mantic zombies are much better than GW, and GW big monsters are much better than Mantic etc) and proxying them into the forces from each ruleset.

      • Alhazred TheMad

        How is it rushed? Maybe it looks that way from our side, but they didn’t develop AoS two months ago, this has been planned for years probably. Assuming that their cared about Mantics time table is laughable.

        • Nameless

          for years? I can see no evidence of that being the case. Last year saw the release of Wood elves and Dwarfs, and following them the end times books. Would games workshop release these 7 books only to make them obsolete within months of the last release date?

          if this is the case then everyone beware

          • Malisteen

            Yes. Yes, they would. And they did. And despite promises of support for years to come, I’d say AoS has maybe a year to find its legs, or it will be gone too.

            And that’s coming from someone who would really like to see it succeed.

          • Nameless

            I would imagine that Age of Sigmar will do passably well in the short term. I suspect it will attract a lot of people that have up until now played exclusively 40k, however in the long run I can’t see a game where the person who spends most gets a free win.

          • Alhazred TheMad

            First off they can’t make figures over two months, that’s a naive understanding of production. Secondly nothing was lost but the books, which GW isn’t worried about. Cover of the next White Dwarf has wood elf figured all over it, so clearly their not phasing Rhodes kits out anytime soon. I think people need to realize that GW knows what it’s doing, even if it’s only treading water.

          • Nameless

            “that is not dead, which can eternal lie. that is not dead for even death may die” not relevant to the discussion but noted your name.

            Oh I fully understand that the mini’s didn’t burst out a hole in the ground, but there is a jump from having designed the mini’s 6 months to a year in advance and having planned the previous setting to be removed, and a rules set that cares not for bases or points.

            nothing was lost but very pricy books and the good will of those who bought them. people complained, justifiably, when Eldar and Space Marines got updates to codexes less than 2 years old, how then should those who bought end times Archeon feel? with a shelf life of only 5 months.

          • Alhazred TheMad

            As someone who bought into the Storm Of Chaos armies that came out almost ten years ago I sympathize, but I’m not surprised. Imagine the fun of building an entire Dwarf Slayer army out of metal figures only for GW to retcon it all out a few years later along with the rules. At least the End
            Times didn’t radically create an army that is unplayable an edition later. The alliances are still there and are more formal now.

          • Nameless

            I hope you are right about the end times alliances still being around, along with continued support for those alliances, but being pessimistic by nature, I suspect they will all slowly be replaced with Aelfs, Duradins, Ogors and Oruks with no respect or continuation of the old armies. only time will tell because Games workshop certainly won’t be.

        • Graeme Donaldson

          You must be very easily amused.
          GW must be very aware of Mantic these days as, while it’s impossible that a small fry like Mantic could be causing sales problems to GW, the rules for AoS look to be fairly similar to Mantic’s Kings of War, the way the profiles are done especially and the way GW are following Mantic’s strategy of releasing the rules for free but with a premium hardback copy with all the fluff in available at a later date.
          This is a great day for GW in my opinion, when they stopped thinking they were the mighty trendsetter who, despite all evidence to the contrary, knew their market and customer base and that finally realised they could make great games by making the best of combining all the ideas available in the market.

          • Alhazred TheMad

            I must be, I giggled at your response. GW being aware of and bothering to think of Mantic as a threat are two different things. And comparing rulesets is daft (gee, they both have profiles for combat “gasp”).

            And they are still trend setters. Mantic and the rest shoulde be worried now, but pretending they fell the giant by kicking it’s toe. Taking good ideas and running with them better than the originators is a business strategy that works when you have millions more than your competitors to spend.

        • Me

          …developed for years…
          Hahaha NO.

    • Chad Underdonk

      If anything it was GWs choice to release it at the same time, not Mantics. Time will tell if that was hubris or brilliance.

  • CoffeeGrunt

    Wow, what an exciting turn of events. Cannot wait for people to just choose the game they find most fun playing. Please sensationalise this more, I’ll refresh the page loads to boost your traffic if you do…

  • I’m looking at KoW seriously for the first time.

  • Erik Setzer

    I’ll probably play both (mainly because GW probably knew competition was coming and made the AoS rules free, and since I had a lot of unassembled stuff I could build new round-base forces to try it). But mainly it’ll depend on the people around me. I’ll be sure to let others check out Kings of War, definitely going to order it. If it becomes more popular, I’ll play it, with AoS reserved for the weekends I can’t get across town and only have the GW store in quick distance.

  • SacTownBrian

    It’s not really a fight is it? Didn’t GW throw in the towel and is no longer competing in the massed rank fantasy game niche? Looks to me like Age of Sigmar competes directly with large scale skirmish fantasy games like warmachine and hordes. And if it is great I would think it more likely to canabalize its 40k base, which has bloated to an insane sized rule set across dozens of released products in paper and digital media.

    • Agreed. I don’t see these two games competing at all. In fact, GW has handed mass ranked infantry to Mantic, as far as we can see.

      GW here is entering the skirmish space, legitimately. I see this potentially attempting to take on the WM/H crowd that is rolling across the landscape these days. Of course, it’ll come down to the rules, won’t it?

      GW has yet to realize that what makes PP strong is the ruleset, not the models. WM/H are HUGE because of the rules, not the models. Maybe AoS is a step in the right direction.

      • SacTownBrian

        Agreed but I would also include PPs community involvement. GW tends to look at their retail stores as their community. If they dumped the stores and just had territory sales / demo / tournament reps to support all the LGSs I think they would be more successful. And they would cut their overhead. As it is PP has the advantage with the supported player community.

      • Michael Bradbury

        One thing about the rules being a free 4 page pdf is that they can update/change them quickly and easily. (Whether they will is another matter!)

  • Dan

    Kings of War won my heart years ago.

  • kaptinscuzgob

    bad cheap models vs bad free rules, fight!

    • Mike Parker

      Well said

    • Purple-Stater

      Good rules win, regardless of models. That’s rather the point here, that KoW can easily be played with any company’s models, and Mantic doesn’t discourage it.

      • V10_Rob

        Very astute on their part. Focus on growing the community or focus on keeping a deathgrip on your IP. More often than not, the side that chooses the former wins out, and THEN can use the weight of their market presence to profit obscenely from the later.

        Create a spot for armies that you don’t yet make, look the other way while people proxy whole lists with some other companies models that are thematically similar enough to pass. Players migrate to your system because it offers the gameplay style they want, and they already have models. They become converts, and customers. Release your own models at a safe pace to phase out the proxies.

      • Shardak

        They don’t just “not discourage it” they have an army specifically designed to be used with other companies miniatures – and a whole book of more armies designed so on the way. They actively encourage you to use other companies if you fancy.

  • standardleft

    After some suggestions from this comment section (thanks) I played a series of games of KOW. I quite enjoy KOW. I don’t think Ill stick with it though.

    It felt just a bit dull. I’m not sure, but I felt it lacked a bit of the drama of the warhammer battles I’ve played. Maybe because of the lack of the seemingly silly and odd rules of the Skaven.

    I might play it again It was good, but not great. Hopefully the next addition gives the forces a bit more character.

    • deris87

      Mechanically it’s very watered down. That makes for easy balance, but it gets kind of dull when every wizard plays virtually identical to every other wizard, and every cavalry unit plays basically the same as every other cavalry unit.

    • That was pretty much my experience. It may look like WHFB from across the room, but nothing during game play is really that interesting.

    • Malisteen

      I’ve said more than once that if mantic wants KoW to be a contender for the successor to warhammer fantasy, then the second edition of their game needs a lot more zazz. More special rules to make factions play in interesting and distinct manners. More spells to make magic feel magical. Right now it’s a well balanced game, and plays fast and smooth at the battle scale in a way Warhammer rarely did, but it’s just dull.

      The AoS core rules are, if anything, even more dull, but they seem to be spicing it up with special rules on individual units. Which could work, even if the game is pretty bad, so long as there’s some sort of foundation for army construction that players can work with, instead of leaving the sides in every game up to an argument between the players over how many bonerattlers each ogor is worth.

      Honestly, both games could easily fall flat on their faces at this point. I haven’t seen anything yet from KoW 2.0 to indicate that the rules designers had heard of the bizarre human concept of ‘fun’, while GW seems hell bent on making KoW look cool but be literally impossible to actually play.

      • James Adams

        I think the problem with KOW is that Alessio is former warhammer grad champion for several years, a tournament player by nature and inclination. I’ve looked at the rules and they just don’t grab me. he was involved in writing several editions of warhammer itself as well. Not a personal fan of most of the models and am very aware of ronnie renton as he used to be my boss back in the late 90’s! I agreed with his focus on community and building the hobby, something GW could do with focussing on more than shareholders premiums but I’ll give AoS a chance as I have 2K of dark elves.

  • Alhazred TheMad

    This isn’t a competition. Mantics figures look terrible (marauders, corporation, orcs, ogres), they have to run to kickstarter every time they have a game to develop, and at its core “their” book is watered down 8th edition. They have so much presence on here I wonder if they did a kick start to bribe the editors.

    GWs only real threat is Privateer Press. This new system is borrowing several of their ideas and simplifying it, and it sounds very workable. All they took from Mantic was the idea for free rules online, the difference being people will actually download AoS tomorrow.

    • SacTownBrian

      Privateer Press also has free quick start rules for Warmachine.

      http://privateerpress.com/warmachine/the-game

      I assumed that what we’ve seen from GW so far is their QuickStart rules and not the full set yet. Time will tell though.

    • Shardak

      Releasing the rules for free is pretty much industry standard nowadays –
      Corvus Belli, Privateer Press and Mantic all do it to a greater or lesser extent. Games Workshop were behind on this – mainly because they as a company still act as if it is 2001 and they’re the only game in town.
      The the rules for Infinity, Warmachine/Hordes and Mantic’s various offerings are coherent, functional and heavily tested and to a great extent balanced. When imbalances appear all three companies have made a timely effort to correct them.

      The Age of Sigmar rules that we’ve seen barely function. There is no system to balance player forces in a meaningful capacity, the game is riddled with the kind of randomness that robs the players of meaningful tactical decisions even more so than normal for GW, their endemic lack of clarity in language is even worse this time – see the issues surrounding whether you can shoot in the combat phase or in melee or not, or that by the letter of the rules if you base archers in the center of 2″ round bases it may be technically impossible to attack them in close combat. These are issues that even a small amount of play-testing outside of a small group of designers would have fixed.

      They had better be the quick start rules and there better be a lot of elaboration in pretty much every area or Sigmar as a ruleset is pretty much dead on arrival.

      That said; Games Workshop has no debt and currently makes a profit – their main threat is themselves; through peeing away all of their built up goodwill and painting their games into an ever less profitable corner.
      Even then unless they take on a lot of debt trying and failing to recover their (hypothetically) lost position as premier plastic soldier game company their death is much more likely to be a Palladium style long-slow decline into irrelevance than a bankruptcy and implosion.

      • Alhazred TheMad

        We re still talking about a system we ve only seen chunks of yet so I’m reserving judgement until midnight tonight. We know systems that got it right, and it’s a little premature to say that GW has gotten wrong in comparison when we don’t have the full document.

    • Purple-Stater

      ROFL, too funny! The quality of Mantics figures vs GW is meaningless when you’re free to use any company’s models. Plus *PLAYERS* (you know, the people switching to GW’s competitors?) care more about how good the minis look four on the game table, not in a display case. Good enough is good enough, especially when they are half the price.

      Crowd-funding is a great way to start a project, unless you think that only wealthy people/company’s should be allowed to produce new things. GW’s real threat is the entire rest of the table-top gaming industry. Losing customers is the important part, who you lose them to is meaningless.

      Yes, people will download the AoS rules, but people will also be downloading the KoW rules as well.

      • Alhazred TheMad

        …I think your high, are you high? Seriously? Rules matter over figures? Are you then buying GWs figures to play KoW, because that’s the only thing approaching logic that makes sense out of your comment then. To play these games “players” (also the people buying minis) need a wide selection of “figures” (those little plastics things, most of which probably look like your mom) to play every selection of an army list. Since KoW has been essentially copying GWs army premises for years your either using their bad figures or GWs good ones. Everyone else is overcoats or not specific.

        Also I understand the premise of Kickstarter as a “start.” Mantic has been at this too long to justify its use at every expansion. It just shows weakness now when they do it for the umpteenth time. What is wrong with their money management that they can’t develop things on their own yet? Never mind GW, PP doesn’t even do that, they know it looks bad.

        • Purple-Stater

          No, I’m not high. Are you stupid? I ask because your comments just took a stupidly juvenile turn. In any case, better my mom than yours.

          Yes, rules matter over figures, because without good rules who will be buying any figures at all, regardless of the manufacturer?

          I’ve already bought GW’s figures (five WHFB armies over 30 years), but I plan on starting an Undead army using Mantic’s models. My WHFB army’s also include an assortment of models from other company’s as well (though probably less than 10%). And even for playing WHFB in any situation where Mantic and GW have suitably similar models, I would buy the Mantic ones simply because they look good enough on the tabletop (90% of all that pretty detail is lost on massed R&F units at 3-4 feet distant) and are a lot more economical.

          There are gaming companies as old as GW that are using Kickstarter for new projects; Mantic is still a pretty new kid on the block, and they’re a heck of a lot smaller. It’s not a big deal unless you’re just trying to be pretentious on purpose.

          • Alhazred TheMad

            No I just assumed you had you games mixed. One on your shelf, say Candyland, that one doesn’t really matter what you use to play it with (card board right? No figures? Let me know). …..your original premise was that no cared if Mantics figs were crap because you could use other figures. I argued that you couldn’t, because no one else makes Baselins or whatever their called, or skaven. You just stated that far away your stuff looks better, which just sounds thrilling (that was sarcasm, worried you’d miss it).

            If your hobby choice is to play with crap that looks like crap than more power to you. I didn’t start warhammer because the reference cards looked interesting, and I won’t substitute quality for …Mantic.

          • Purple-Stater

            You never made any point about any minis that nobody else made versions of. In any case the Basilean models look quite decent. Certainly there is some hit-and-miss, but GW certainly isn’t immune to that issue either. Koi-copters, Riverdancing Bloodthirster, Pumbagore, Skullreapers, Minotaurs, Blood Throne/Skull Cannon, Furies, the chains on Skarr Bloodwrath’s axes… hell, I could triple this list if I wanted to take the time, all of those look worse than any of the Basileans.

            Or… you could just grow up and accept the fact that different people have different tastes, but we both know how that sort of thing works for fanbois. There’s a lot of room in between “gorgeous” and “crap”, and it’s all subjective. Not everybody is willing to pay 2-3x the price to go from good enough to the best.

          • Alhazred TheMad

            It is definitely a different hobby to everyone, but starting out with ROFL and sarcasm about what I think “players” are shows an a lack of maturity on your part and some need for “growing up” that you in turn needed during your thirty years plus of gaming. In any event I’m through hurling your medicine back, this is a forum for intelligent discussion.

          • Purple-Stater

            Oh, please. Yes, I made one minor sarcastic jab, but instead of taking the high road you dove two levels deeper and responded with substance abuse and mom-jokes. You are in no position to complain about a lack of maturity.

            My bit of sarcasm was perfectly fair given your ridiculous non-game related attacks on Mantic when the specific point of the article was about game systems. You didn’t show up here looking for discussion.

          • Alhazred TheMad

            i said I’m done.

          • Purple-Stater

            So let it go. I’m done too now.

          • Alhazred TheMad

            Yippie.

  • Shinnentai

    I’ll certainly be picking up the 2nd ed KoW rules once they’re released. Still using GW figures though. Looks like GW is about to live up to their expectation of being all about the minis rather than the rules.

  • PenelopeTheWonderPony

    I’ll probably try out AoS rules- if they’re free, then why not. I’ll try out KoW too!

    But I know full well where most of my models will be coming from- very happy with my massive Undead battalion box from Mantic, for a fraction of the GW price…

  • anon32654987

    This reminds me, Games Workshop liked to claim that they’re a miniature company, not a gaming one.
    Guess they’ll be making miniatures for Kings of War now.

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  • SacTownBrian

    PP also has free quick start rules.

    http://privateerpress.com/warmachine/the-game

    I assumed that what we’ve seen from GW so far is their QuickStart rules and not the full set yet. Time will tell though.

    • Porky_Poster

      Two producers enter; many more leave..?

  • silashand

    F*** Age of Sigmar. I will be picking up KoW 2.0 when it hits the shelves.

  • Guv’nor

    Hmmm i may just pick up the rulebook and have a go i like i can use my existing models to a certain extent and it might be just what i want for massed battles but ill still be first in line for AOS pre orders. Guess i can just play both.

  • Malisteen

    There’s a lot to both games that I like the look of so far, although final judgment will have to wait for final versions. AoS may not have the best rules, but I never played GW games for tight rule sets. It looks to be fast and streamlined, with a smaller skirmish scale that actually fits the price point of GW’s miniature offerings, putting the game as a whole in a reasonable range, while keeping some of the characters and style that I enjoy from GW (though I know some players don’t so much).

    On the other hand, if the no points, no army construction rumors prove true, then the game’s just unplayable, so I guess that’s that.

    As for Kings of war, I like the square bases, ranked units, and battalion scale of the game, and it has rules better oriented towards that game scale than fantasy has ever been. From my experience with the prior edition, you can play games in less then half the time it used to take to play equivalent games of fantasy. And while the models aren’t great, some of them are still pretty decent, and the price point and level of detail are properly set for a battles game.

    On the other hand, KoW is, well, kinda bland. The first edition was lacking the sorts of special rules and options that lend character to a faction and set them apart from other armies. ‘These guys cost slightly more, but have a 4 instead of a 3 base in stat X’ just doesn’t cut the mustard, and the magic system just didn’t have any Zazz. Hopefully KoWII has upped the wow factor in these regards.

    If anything, I honestly hope that both games turn out to be pretty good, and that Mantic manages to get away with supporting rules for GW’s new factions. That way I can grab the models I like from both lines, just slap the GW ones on some third party square bases, and have the option to play the same army in either skirmish scale with AoS or battles scale with KoW as I desire on any given day.

    But for me to play either of these games over sticking with what I already play, AoS absolutely needs some sort of baseline army construction rules, while KoW needs, well, more Zazz, so we we’ll see.

    • Porky_Poster

      In the context of a lot of what’s being said this seems almost too reasonable. We may just get the best of many worlds.

  • ytook

    I’m definitely going to give AoS a go, free rules and I’ve got the models so why not? And I’ve loved the art and models leaked for it already so I’m very interested, a bit cautious of the game but interested.

    I might pick up KoW to have a go with it as it seems I’ll be able to use my GW minis, but I can’t see it becoming my go to, nobody in my group has heard or is bothered by it, and their minis are… fine… I suppose. But still, competition for GW is good, so long as they don’t just ignore them 😛

  • ytook

    Also people do seem to underestimate GW and overestimate their completion a fair bit because it’s cool to hate on them (allot of which is underserved, not completely underserved but still), I mean look at the top stories bar 😛

  • Big Fat Fred

    I’m UK based so there seems to be many more people playing KoW here. The rules are more streamlined but that allows for better balance and faster play-time – you can usually get through a game in 2 hours. The balance thing is the deal breaker for me. What others see as sameness I see as balance 🙂 The minis are really affordable, too, although I have a load of old GW stuff so I don’t expect to be buying many minis from anyone for a while. I also like the fact you don’t have to remove minis from units as they take casualties – everything is much neater because of it.
    AoS just isn’t doing it for me right now. Maybe in time, as long as GW stop being such d**ks.

  • AircoolUK

    I’ve got my favourite version of WHFB (third edition) for when I want those big games, but WHAoS (or whatever we abbreviate it to) is pretty much the sort of game I like playing just now.

    Quick, simple, scenario based skirmishes.
    GW are way behind the times, so it’s good to see free rules (or at least a summary of them) and datacards coming with the models.

  • Dragon2928

    GW sidelined the system I began wargaming with and marginalized my favorite army. So I played my first battle of KoW last night using the same old figures and LOVED it!
    Now that they are officially endorsing rules for “armies we do not yet make” (which includes my scaly champions) I’m sold.

  • onlyonepinman

    Mantic vs Games Workshop isn’t a contest any more, not in Fantasy Terms. Games Workshop have just switched sports. 8th edition was competing with Kings of War, not sure whether Age of Sigmar is.

    Kings of War is still about large numbers of miniatures and at Mantic’s prices, you can afford to do it – although with that reduced price there’s a significant reduction in quality.

    Games Workshop are all about top quality miniatures and the price for WFB just got a bit too prohibitive for new players to join. I think maybe Age of Sigmar is competing more with the likes of Warmachine now. Smaller numbers of high quality miniatures.

    Mantic will be getting some money out of me as a result of this – I’m going to pre-order Kings of War 2. But at the same time, I will also be buying the Age of Sigmar box and giving it a go.

  • Jared Swenson

    If you’re disappointed in Age of Sigmar, go play Kings of War. Period. And this is coming from a guy who is not interested in KoW at all and looking forward to AoS.

  • frankelee

    Hopefully by the time KoW 2’s army lists come out, we’ll actually know if they’ve killed WFB off for good and not just have Warseer posts vaguely claiming it.

  • noname

    WFB was doing so bad that GW had to reboot the system. If rage quitters leaves the game, that doesn’t matter because the revenue from WFB was so low to begin with (lower than paint, terrain and cases combine). WFB at this point is rock bottom, there is nothing but up for the new game.

    • Yoorba

      Everyone that leaves is a ragequitter! An infidel!

      Cheers guys. I thought the haters were bad. The fanboys are going to ruin the new game in, like a month.

    • Nameless

      without numbers it is hard to really comment on how fantasy has done. however the number floating around the internet without a source is 15%, so lets assume that’s true.

      from the 2014 annual report black library and forgeworld combined makes up only 9% sales. in addition the compete lack of any information about 9th/age of sigmar is sure to have hurt sales by no small amount.

      I believe that games workshop believes it is the best thing to do, but only time will tell. anyone remember the war of the ring game system…

      • Shardak

        I think most other Miniatures companies (bar maybe Privateer Press) would kill for 15% of Games Workshop’s sales.

        • Nameless

          well there is a very real chance that Mantic Games might see that 15% in the next few months…

          • James Adams

            I got from someone I trust that Warhammer was less than 10% of annual revenue and falling. Sad but true for the game that made their name. Had it’s issues, at heart entry level and cost but was fun to play!

    • Purple-Stater

      No, it wasn’t doing that bad (just not good enough compared to 40K) and GW could have fixed most of the complaints with a new edition. This is NOT a reboot, it’s a completely different game! A new, but functionally similar, edition is a reboot.

      Your statement about the revenue is pure wanton speculation (read: BS), because GW has never made that sort of info public.

      • doughouseman

        If you read the documents filed in the Chapterhouse court case, you will find that WFB was a very distant second to 40K in GW revenue. That was now 3 years ago, and I doubt that the game has gained much of any additional share in the market during that time.

        I know that at the smaller conventions we support, that WFB has just about stopped being played.

        So I hope this reboot works, but having read the rules (all 4 pages) – I am not impressed.

  • I have played fantasy since dwarfs had spears, and its sad it has gone the way it has, none of this new sigmarite stuff even looks remotely appealing. The chaos stuff looks like one step from 40 but is otherwise pretty decent looking.
    Mantic is really going to have to do something amazing with kings of war. The first edition was just plain boring. I love Alessio C. but that was not his best work. IMO it was his worst work. I hope second edition gives Kings of War some pace otherwise people will still be left wanting.

  • Alhazred TheMad

    Anyone see that the AoS stuff was up? The warscrolls that is.

    http://www.games-workshop.com/en-GB/age-of-sigmar-compendiums

    • Purple-Stater

      Yeppers. Haven’t found the downloadable rules yet, but the warscrolls are there. Albeit a bit wonky to get to them as they don’t seem to be all in one place just yet. But that may be fixed later.

  • Michael Gerardi

    Just downloaded all the free AoS stuff.

    Well, you get what you pay for, I guess.

    The cheapest sawdust joint in Las Vegas doesn’t water down its liquor like GW watered down the rules for this system. Like others have suggested, I couldn’t find a thing on maximum unit sizes. If maxima are somehow implied, I don’t get it. Way to go with providing USEFUL rules, GW! Oh, and having to roll–or pick–some goofball special rule for EACH PIECE OF TERRAIN? Wow! What a great idea! Ordinary trees don’t exist in AoS!

    And those warscrolls for ALL of your old minis? After first checking out the Tomb Kings file (my own army), then most of the others, I found–surprise!– that many models, and I quote, “DO NOT HAVE WARSCROLLS”! Instead, you get to SUBSTITUTE some other model’s warscroll.

    Yep, another g-d lie from GW.

    KoW is looking better than ever. Not to mention Oldhammer. BRING OUT YOUR LEAD!

    • Purple-Stater

      You can put as many models in a unit as you want, where applicable. Due to Sudden Death rules, you probably don’t want to do much more than the minimum size though.

      Would it have made you feel THAT much better if they had just printed a duplicate warscroll and changed the name on it, instead of supplying a substitutes list? But yeah, why not just print the name of all the original units the warscroll is supposed to represent?

      Anyhoo…. two guys in my group are playing a game as I type this, and I’m busy printing the rules to Kings of War v2.

      • Michael Gerardi

        I suppose it will be up to those who choose to play AoS to refuse to play against the guy who brings 100-mini units. Not a great way to build the community.
        As for warscrolls, what would have made me feel better was GW actually doing what they led us to believe they would do, and producing a DISTINCT warscroll for each distinct unit. But again, it’s easier to just lie. Thanks a pantload, GW.

  • Spacefrisian

    Dunno bout KoW, seeing lots of rank and file models but blocks get removed completely once it has lost a number of points, might as well put down single models and say they have that many wounds. I think its a bit overhyped.
    This does not mean that GW is any better, no points value on units for AoS is very stupid, and makes it more of a pissing contest about who has the biggest wallet, than being an actuall game where you are supposed to have fun…..i dont think thats the definition of fun.

  • jeff white

    i am going to be moving my warhammer orcs and goblins over to kings of war and staying there to finish my empire army, and i will be taking my background with me as the universe is already blown apart and i figure some of the most reasonable warlords of the old warhammer universe must have ended up in the most reasonably governed universe of rules, by all expectations this being kings of war… because it is certainly not aos.

  • James Adams

    He’s the former C.O of GW before Kirby. He did preside over a massive growth of GW so he does understand the market or at least did. I don’t agree with Mantics practise of basically copying pretty much everything from GW (yeah I know the argument about GW getting loads of their ideas from other sources and don’t disagree in the least, they most certainly were influenced heavily by other things take Sly Marbo for example!) but come on, space bloodbowl, warhammer armies in all but name, staff that all used to work for GW from rules writers to miniature designers, I actually thought from a while they might be some sub section of GW to offer cheaper minis since the staffing and location were so similar! That being said I do get your point, skirmish games are generally more popular, certainly in the gaming groups I’ve been involved with and while I’ll miss fantasy (well my large dark elf army will) and I’ve put off purchases I planned for the rumoured 9th edition that seems like it’s never coming I’ll give AoS a chance and see how it gorws. I’m sure someone, possibly a redshirt I know said it’s a living rule book so who knows how it will develop and remember, warhammer was originally only a few sheets of paper given out free with Mail orders many many years ago back when GW made models for other peoples games. Maybe they’ve gone full circle!

    • Beyond Boredom

      Thanks for the response. I actually learned a lot, I had no idea about Ronnie Renton and his company. Admittedly, nobody knows if AOS will be a long-term success. And I don’t wish any ill on other companies, I just thought Mr Renton came across smug and smarmy in that post of his. Rubbed me up the wrong way. Does he hate his ex-employers that much? Or maybe he’s insecure and is actually worried. . .

      • James Adams

        no prob! I do hope AoS is a success and that the rulebook grows and develops over time! I think Mr Renton belives GW is getting it wrong and his way is better but time will tell. I still think Mantic need a lot more originality than they’ve shown so far since attracting the people who used to play a system that was dying isn’t the way to create a long term sustainable business but like you I hope both survive and thrive since it gives us gamers more choice!