40K: The 5 WORST Codexes

 

losers-sign

The End of the Year is quickly approaching – Check out our choices for the WORST Codexes out there in the Grimdark.

Hey BoLS Readers, AdamHarry here with some more 40K power rankings. I was chatting with GoatBoy and I had a question for him, “What do you consider to be the worst codexes? And I mean ONLY the codexes, no additional allies or supplements – just the stand-a-lone *codex.” Here’s what he had to say:

First a game… NO peeking:

WRITE DOWN YOUR LIST OF 5 WORST CODEXES FIRST – Then let’s compare!

 

ALL DONE?  Let’s go!

 

 

HelloLoser

 

 

 

 

Dark Eldar codex5. Dark Eldar

This book is a wet paper sack of an army.  Just weak in general and every army has a method to hurt them – whether it is ignore cover, high rate of fire, or just better everything.  They work as an ally because you use their Deep Strike to cheat around with Eldar.  The New Corsair book might breathe some life but right now they just feel like they give you nothing and are weak vs the new hotness that is coming out for different armies – GC’s and high rates of fire.

Tyranids4. Tyranids

This one just needs to be reworked from the ground up.  Their point costs are off, their power set is weak for psychics, and they have issues with Super Heavy Walkers.  GC’s are also a problem as they punish them for having poison.  This book needs a lot of work to get better beyond the Flyrant – which still should be cheaper.

Blood Angels Codex-cover

3. Blood Angels

Dante Weeps. One detachment is just used to get cheap drop pods.  Their scouts are still WS/BS 3 – needs a true Decurion to help make them better.  If they had a Gladius with fast rhinos it would be a different army.  Right now just behind the curve based on what Marines have.

Codex-Orks

2. Ork Codex

Point issues, loss of an invulnerable save, ignore cover and other things kill them to fast.  The Tau Riptide hurts them so bad and more GC’s coming into the game is rough for them.  The Morka/Gorka naut should have been Super Heavies which would have helped.  Boyz still cost too much.

Codex chaos space marines

1. Chaos Space Marine Codex

The easiest one to put at the end – this book is old, everything costs too much, there is nothing neat in the book and needs a serious reworking.
As a Tyranid, Blood Angel and Chaos Player I can’t say I disagree with his list. I’d also like to add that most of the Big Bugs are still overcosted, not just the Flyrant. With my Nids I’d LOVE to be able to build a different, competitive army from JUST the Codex. I think that is the primary issue with these 5 books – the Core Codexes are just not up to snuff. If you want to play competitively you have to really look at other additions like allies and formations outside of the codex. Is that a business move by GW to sell more books? Maybe. Is it confusing and needless dense for a player? Absolutely.
What’s your take on the Top 5 WORST Codexes ? Let us know in the comments below!
*By Codex I was referring to a full Codex, not the multiple Ad Mech books that activate like Voltron to form a “real” codex release or Harlequins or Knights. I mean full fledged codex release.
  • Grafton Is Dust

    Somehow Sisters didn’t make the list.

    • David Leimbach

      Sisters are competitive, it’s just that nobody wants to play them.

      They even have a character with a 3+/4+ rerollable save.

      • Paul Applebaum

        12pt Veteran Guardsmen with power armour is not competitive. Trust me, I play them at tournaments and T3/S3 will get you every time unless you have the bodies to soak it.

        • AreyouaNazi? Isthatyourelf?

          Chaos Space Marines aren’t competitive and they are just a fraction more. I see an identical flaw in the troops zone here.

        • pskontz

          but he siad htey have A charachter so it must be awesome :.. even the crap pile forgets us

        • Secundum

          This. Even with power armour, a round of Shooting from Something like Necron Immortals (or even Warriors!) will cripple a squad.

      • Kris W

        Are you referring to a Canoness with a Rosarius & the Cloak of St. Aspira? Because that relic only allows re-rolls for armour saves and shield of faith (6+ invul) rolls. If there’s a character with these rules and I missed it, please let me know lol.

      • Grafton Is Dust

        And T3. Woohoo.

      • Autumnlotus

        Sisters aren’t competitive. They are mediocre at everything they do, and like tyranids have only one way they can be played to be good. Problem here is that the one way they can be played can be done better with space marines for cheaper on cost and pts

    • eehaze

      Your poor Space Waifus!

      • Grafton Is Dust

        No waifus here, just nuns with friggin guns, mon ami!

    • Malisteen

      you have to have a book to have the worst book.

  • Rawss

    I know Sisters don’t qualify as they don’t have a full codex, but they are the only army that doesn’t have an actual in print full codex. How often do we hear this complaint? Goddamit Gee Dub, just give the sisters a couple of new units and a usable codex! So many players have been asking for this for so long! I’d take something new over plastic sisters now.

    • Old zogwort

      They do have a full codex, it is just a really crappy one.

      • yoash barak

        To be honest, the “not codex” sisters has is still as competitive if not more so than anything in the list here.

      • Rawss

        Yeah but it’s a codex in the same way as a two pieces of bread is technically a sandwich. It’s so close to not being a codex that it feels like they begrudged the effort.

      • Autumnlotus

        Their “full codex” is smaller then harlequins or admech. One troop choice, with all but dominions and serephim being worse copypastes. Only one real unique HQ and one generic HQ. Really you could use inquisition to make a more fluffy list, or space marines for a more competitive one

        • Chris. K Cook

          And Marine units aren’t copy pastes?

          • Autumnlotus

            They have a lot of choices with most of said choices being useful. If Celestians were like sternguard or vanguard I would probably use them

      • Spacefrisian

        Nah digital only shouldnt count, thats showing GW being lazy.

  • Old zogwort

    1. Legion of the damned
    2. Assassins
    3. Sisters
    4. Orks
    5 Chaos space marines / dark eldar

    • Old zogwort

      Seriously legion of the damned and assassins could be so cool. But they are horrible, both are over costed and Lotd auto loses the game :

      • yoash barak

        Neither was ever intended as a stand alone army, why are you even looking at them as such?

        • SIA

          Because it would be really cool if they were, I am not a fan of ally only armies, either make them stand alones or leave them in someone else’s codex imo

          • Chris. K Cook

            Hi, you are aware that it’s 7th ed now?

          • SIA

            .Um yes I like allies, I just wish LotD Assassins Admech and Skitarri had been full codexi like all the others

        • AreyouaNazi? Isthatyourelf?

          1-Ahriman
          2-Gretchin
          3-an uno card
          4-Petrol prices
          5-superman 4

          I generated a list too of things that need fixing that doesn’t have anything to do with the article.

          • Xodis

            Whats wrong with the Uno card?

          • AreyouaNazi? Isthatyourelf?

            It breaks up friendships.

          • Xodis

            Like Playing Monopoly or trying Meth, there is a certain amount or risk you have to take responsability for lol.

          • chuckwilliams

            Grots are awesome! People just dont take advantage of G2G like they should. ObSec is still ObSec.

          • Robomummy

            Gretchin can be awesome, in a 2500 point unbound game I can run a list of 825 gretchin with runtherds. Gretchin don’t have a save but they have guard equivalent shooting, thanks to runtherds they don’t run, S4 runtherds can glance most vehicles to death in assault on a 6 if you have enough of them. Plus you can tarpit everything and prevent your opponent from Deepstriking anywhere near you.

          • AreyouaNazi? Isthatyourelf?

            I think you’re reading a little too into the comment. The point was that they are:
            A) from inside a codex and not designed to be stand alone, hence have no relevance to the article.
            B) bad when taken at face value and compared to a Wraithknight. Sure, they suck, but it’s a bad comparison, like comparing legion of the damned and dark Eldar, they are nothing alike and they are not even trying to be,

          • Robomummy

            My comment had nothing to do with the above comment, just a funny list i thought i’d share.

          • Chris. K Cook

            Damn it GW why don’t we have a Grot Horde Formation…

          • Robomummy

            because GW hates fun

        • Chris. K Cook

          Because he stoll wishes it was 5th ed and damn it he’ll force everyone else to play like it was if he can.

      • Muninwing

        … but bring LotD and a Vindicare, and you’re good.

    • generic eric

      Damned Legionnaires!

  • Christie Bryden

    there is more wrong than just age and over costing on the chaos codex, it was the continued mistake of the focus being on the warbands rather than the legions, becouse of that, they dont feel like chaos, they feel like random nutters, inherantly worse than their loyalist brothers.

    • euansmith

      Sometimes a random nutter is all the chaos you need…

      • Iron Within

        Chaos needs a Daemon Prince special character called “Terry”.

        • euansmith

          Not Trevor… CEO of Trevor Philips Industries..?

          • Iron Within

            The very same! He comes with two profiles – rage mode and “balls out” rage mode. GW slightly changed the name so they didn’t have to pay royalties to Rock star Games 😛

          • euansmith

            😀 I really warmed to Trevor by the end of the game.

          • euansmith

            Oh, of course, I forgot the “defensible IP” angle 😀

    • Muninwing

      see… they should not feel random.

      individualistic, but part of a like-minded warband is fine. part of a 10,000-year-old organization that has fragmented and changed over time is good.

      as much as i loved the freedom and choice of the 3.5 chaos dex, that one focused too much on the fallen legions. it needs delineation if they want to accurately represent the fluff.

      they’d do well if they (a) did daemonkin for each one including undivided, (b) had a separate codex for chaos pirates and chaos legion remains, or (c) used one book with delineations and formations to make broader options available.

      right now, there’s no differentiation between some groups, and odd lines between others.

      if they had lesser marks, greater marks, and specialized troops that acted like the greaters with extras, maybe it’d work. or if you use a formation you get advantages.

      so…
      Lesser MoN: FNP
      Greater MoN: +1T
      formation: Death Guard — all viable models must have GMoN. all troops gain FNP and 7-man squads get access to an extra special weapon instead of a heavy weapon.

      or

      Lesser MoT: 5++ or +2 to already-existing invuln
      Greater MoT: Lv 1 Psyker (character) or Brotherhood of Psykers
      formation: Thousand Sons — all SCs get both marks. all Troops get the lesser mark (at +1 if a unit of 9 originally), gain hellfire rounds, but become slow and purposeful when not accompanied by a character

      a formation for unified mixed raiders, for corsairs, for each of the original legions, and for hard boiled veterans from various conflicts would do wonders giving the list flavor.

      adding in a wargear section that is explicitly tailored to each mark (including undivided) would do wonders as well.

      i’m also of the mind that there should be penalties for conflicting marks, but that’s a separate mechanic.

  • Thomas Gardiner

    Dark Eldar are just far and away the worst (maybe along with Orks). Everyone else is at least playable in *some* limited way, but DE are pretty much unusable at this point.

    • dcgamers

      I can’t agree with that, my wife plays Standard Codex DE and allways wins, really she never lost a game since she started playing (about 20 games) (sometimes it’s a Close one but still…). She crushed everything from SM to Eldar. I think the main reason why she is winning is that the DE are so damn fast in taking Mission Objectives and their Special Objectives are easy for them to master. The drugs make them stronger every turn too. Sure they are cannon fodder but because of their Speed in combination with talos and scourges that reduce vehicles to ashes they are quite good. I think the Problem is that you must stop playing them as evil warrior kings and more like of what the are: Raiders that are better in running than fighting.

      • Charon

        If you lose to DE you can’t be very good.
        The joke is “I think the main reason why she is winning is that the DE are so damn fast in taking Mission Objectives”. They are SLOWER than Eldar and White scars. They even have problems removing dirt cheap 35 points objective secured drop pods. So beeing fast can’t be the reason as the army is all about speed but still manages to be slower than armies that are built on speed, firepower and resilience.

        • AreyouaNazi? Isthatyourelf?

          They are terrible, but not chaos terrible. Dark Eldar just suffer from the fact that abilities are denied to them yet thrown at the craftworlds. They really need to bring back some of the 3rd ed flavour. Yes, I said it, 3rd ed.

        • dcgamers

          Maybe the DE Players you know aren’t good at playing them fast I don’t know I only know that my wifes wins with DE:
          From what I have seen in the games put some Kabalite Warriors in raiders, get many whyches out on the field as cannon fodder, up to two reavers squads for “emergency killing”, a talos and two squads scourges and maybe mandrakes. HQ my wive often uses is Lelith or a Standard Archon.

          • Charon

            Fast. What is fast. A DE moves 6 inch like every other army too. He has fleet so he can run with a reroll.
            Eldar have battletrance. So they move 6″ run with fleet and can still shoot. Eldar are faster.
            Raiders move as fast as Wave Serpents. Reavers move as fast as Eldar jetbikes. Scourges move 12″ Swooping hawks move 18″ + battletrance.
            So where do you see a speed advantage.
            Besides looking at the army of your wife, her opponents must be really really bad or just do not car about building effective armies. There should be army out there that loses to footslogging wyches.

          • dcgamers

            I think DE can react faster to a changing battlefield or better changing objectives in my view. Wave Serpents are as fast as Raiders but as far as I know they arent open topped and can’t take the DE equivalent of more Dakka with them or the other neat DE thingies. Swooping Hawks are faster but can’t take as many Special weapons as the scourges can. Whyches are dangerous when they are overlooked by firing squads because then they can easyly engage firing squads in meele and even win that meele (especialy if lelith is leading them) if the firing squads are attacking the whyches they can’t attack the raiders I am no expert neither in Eldar nor Dark Eldar but thats what I saw in the games. Yes maybe my wifes oponents are bad Players that is possible but I don’t think that so many of them are bad Players. 😀

          • AreyouaNazi? Isthatyourelf?

            Jetbike troops are in every craftworlds list,my hey have the dakka and the survivability. Dark Eldar in no way compete with them for mobility, as mobility has to take into account more factors than just their vehicles.

          • Charon

            Open topped does nothing in terms of speed (it even makes them slower as the DE shooting have to snapshot if they go faster that 6″). The funny gunboat is not cost efficient (not even in the DE codex as 3 Venoms with Kabalites come out stronger than 2 Raiders with kabalites and rerolls) and keep in mind that it comes at the same cost as 6 scatter bikes (which are faster, more durable and pump out 24 S6 shots at 36″ range instead of 10 poison shots at 24″.
            To sum it up “wyches are dangerous if they hit the right target and your opponent is too bad to notice them”
            Hawks get a ton of special weapons for free. he all have a special weapon, the all have haywire, they all can attack flyers and they can rain down ignore cover grenades. They also cost the same as NAKED scourges.

          • AreyouaNazi? Isthatyourelf?

            We are on the same page. You sing the song of my people.

          • dcgamers

            Well then the Opponent Eldar Player was just bad but still there are the other games against other races that weren’t Eldar 🙂

          • Charon

            Basically comes down to exactly the same. Every army (more so with formations, Hell Space marines get 600 points for free) can do exactly the same for less points while having a better chance of surviving. There is a reason why DE as standalone are considered bad and that reason is hardly “nobody except your wife knows how to play them”

          • dcgamers

            Hey I never said that about my wife I only said that she Plays Standard DE and wins games. 😉 But hey Tyranids are considered bad too and won a Tournee, sometimes it’s not just black & White 😉

          • Autumnlotus

            Anecdotal evidence doesn’t disprove pure math. I like playing imp guard, love going Vets in chimaras and morter teams. I win games with it, and laugh as my penal guard loot objectives like crazy men. But that doesn’t change that this list is garbage. Deldar are terrible, with Haemonculus covens being only marginally better but a serious hit on the wallet if u want to use GW models. Yes u can raider spam and bring Scourges, but they same can be done by most armies with similar speeds and stronger weapons. Does that mean the army is unplayable? No, a skilled player can make do. But they are still awful objectively

          • kobalt60

            Well, there seems to be a consensus on the interwebs today. Your wife ISN’T winning with DE, you can cherrypick better units out of other codexs, your wife isn’t having fun playing with DE, because no one can possibly enjoy DE, and anything else she might like about DE is probably wrong too. It would be best if she just bins the lot of them

          • Charon

            Can you quote anyone on this or is it again a hyperbolic trolling attempt to cover up your lack of arguments?

          • kobalt60

            this is a mistake, but here goes

            dc stated a fact “my wife plays Standard Codex DE and allways wins”, you responded with a non-quantifiable fact, therefore, an opinion “DE as standalone are considered bad” and an insult “If you lose to DE you can’t be very good”. You did however throw in some unrelated facts “Raiders move as fast as Wave Serpents. Reavers move as fast as Eldar jetbikes.” No one said DE were the fastest. Because eldar are faster, doesn’t mean DE are not faster then many other races

            responding to facts with opinion, insults and obfuscation is the very definition of trolling, but good trolling nevertheless.

            9/10 because i responded

          • Charon

            Still waiting for anyone saying: Your wife ISN’T winning with DE

            or

            your wife isn’t having fun playing with DE

            or anything similar.
            Also your “unrelated fact” is pretty wrong as it was a response to “I think the main reason why she is winning is that the DE are so damn fast in taking Mission Objectives” which is not an inherent strength of the army as you pointet out yourself.

            “doesn’t mean DE are not faster then many other races”

            This is in part correct. “MANY” other races is wrong. And the fun thing is, a lot of the armies that are slower (or can get a quite balanced matchup against DE) are in fact armies from that “bottom 5” list we see above.

          • Havik110

            Standard 7th Archon sucks compared to standard 3rd archon…i used to always go first, hit at str6 and if i felt lucky roll 6 attacks…

            Lilith sucks compared to 5th edtion lilith

            Ive played since 3rd and while everyone else’s transports have gone down in price ours have gotten 5 points more expensive and because of the changes to the game in general and night shields gotten worse…In 4th we had skimmers flying fast so we couldnt be penned (even though glancing could kill)…

            We are supposedly the fastest army in the game and eldar and bike marines are faster and MORE IMPORTANTLY more survivable…

            So while I want our transports to be paper armor they need to go even faster and we should be able to shoot on the move better than anyone else. They need to give us something…ravagers, gunboats with 3 sub lazcannons cant move 12 and shoot all 3 at full BS….was that too powerful in 5th?

            The next thing is we have 2 guns for the most part…if we are shooting troops we shoot with poison, if we are shooting armor or heavy armor troops we shoot lances. a bad round of lances vs armor 12 and up kills us, and we dont bring as many lances as i used to bring in the 3rd edition book…

            our bad@$$ CC unit in incubi, dont get grenades or any way to carry grenades…???

            Our vets dont get to cary any weapon they want like every other veteran troop in the galaxy.

            We still have fewer units in the book than any other full codex other than GKs…

            the book suffers from being a fantastic book if they were playing against 4th edition marines…but in this edition, there is sometimes more shooting in 1 turn than an entire game of 4th…and bolters kill our raiders and venoms…

            Kabalites are VERY GOOD base troops…but they have no way to take out gargantuans…

            Wracks would be very good base troops but they are elites for some reason no one can understand…

            some of the stuff in the coven book is better than suck but not great…our talos ends up more expensive than a wraithlord with less toughness…

            Wyches suck (and by that token bloodbrides suck), hellions suck, changing the ride by attacks on reavers makes them suck. One day they will figure out 2 attack warriors with a 5++ sucks (mandrakes)…scourges suck for the points but are better than 5th so thats a plus…Void dragons have to be the most over costed model ever in the game. raven fighters are bad for the points compared to any codex that has come out since DE…

      • Thomas Gardiner

        I was going to write a big reply, but Charon’s covered all the reasons why (imo) you’re wrong about DE. Eldar are just flat-out faster, for better points and with better durability and firepower.

        Space Marines can get multiple objective secured units exactly where they need to be on turns 1 and 2 because of an abundance of deep strike options. And they’re marines so much harder to dig out of Objectives than us. They’re also a similar price to our warriors.

        AdMech have Skitarii units that are faster, more durable and shootier than Dark Eldar units. Plus they get a batch of insane special rules on top.

        Necrons are about as fast as us due to flying transports that can deposit ObSec units exactly where they need to be. Except those units are, again, incredibly tough with better shooting than us.

        We are an objectively worse Codex, point for point, than anything else. We pay a premium for rules and weapons that other armies get as a matter of course. We fall apart like wet tissue paper and our shooting is pathetically weak into the bargain (lance spam is not a good tactic, before someone says it). We’re not even “fast” any more since multiple armies have equal or better mobility. You might have a few anecdotal stories to the contrary, but I have plenty of anecdotal evidence too. I have literally won two games with the new Dark Eldar codex and one was against a guy playing 40k for the first time, for example.

        Dark Eldar are overcosted, underpowered, and suffer from what is essentially a copy-paste of a codex that was middling back in 5th. We need overhauled from the ground up (or 40k needs toned down badly, take your pick). No amount of people saying “well I win with DE!” will change how utterly crap our codex is.

        • Havik110

          I want us to get a few things that I think will help us immensely…

          These are all just my opinions…

          1. We need to move faster across the board. I want to move 12, again get out 6 and assault from there…

          2. Bring back our terrorfex’s and horrorfexes. use them to pin and dont worry about overwatch. They need to affect fearless and know no fear.

          3. Wyches need old wych weapons back and set to 4th edition…wyches dont hit hard so they might as well hit on 3s for most enemies…take away an attack from anything (screw that double strength thing :p )

          4. Give wyches and incubi blasters back.

          5. We can move and shoot while moving in raiders. Its what we do. Move 12 inches shoot at full BS.

          6. dark lances mounted to raiders can fire as dissintegrators. Want to charge us 5 points, turn them into void lances and they can only shoot as void lances

          7. Mandrakes get to deploy via their old rules and assault the turn they show themselves. give them pinning back

          8. We can assault out of portals again. I used to be able to take a raider out of a portal and it counted as the table edge. I want that back. (i dont care if no one else can do it)

          9. Demi rending IS MUCH MUCH BETTER THAN POISON…Give our poison instant death if the wound is unsaved…

          10. Bloodbrides and trueborn are our veterans, let them take any wargear they want, Bloodbrides can take poisionblades or all agonizers if they want, trueborn can take all blasters or shredders (LOL) or all

          blast pistols…

          11. I am basing this off of guardians. If guardians have BS4 and 4 + armor, we who have spent our whole lives fighting need BS5 AT LEAST…WARRIORS need to be MUCH MUCH Better than guardians…guardians are poets that pick up guns as a last resort…some of them might have had training but when they leave the path they Lose it…we need to be MUCH MUCH BETTER THAN GUARDIANS…

          12. Wyches dont have power weapons and dont always hit 1st, and have mo armor compared to banshees…we need something to be comparable…i think our inuln in cc needs to be 3++

          13. I lived without FNP on my DE from the beginning of 4th until the 5th edition book came out….get rid of it from the non coven units…I say give wyches drugs that they can take and change through the game and if they want to roll 2 use the old drug injector rule…roll 2 dice for 2 drugs, if you roll doubles you take a wound, in the case of 1 wound models they die…give the wyches cc drugs, and stims for warriors, thats why they have bs 5….

          14. for the love of god fix the over cost BS…250 to fly a armor 10 bomber with 2 lazcannon lances?

          I have a huge list at home

    • AreyouaNazi? Isthatyourelf?

      Worse than chaos? https://youtu.be/lOd4BCsWD9Y

  • pokemastercube .

    it is a thing that both BA and SW are at a disadvantage to SM and DA, but given the BA would have been done long before tehy would have decided to re-do the main SM book, it isnt really their fault. and that said given i use FW weapons a fair bit i need to use a FOC for things, so the +1I is benificial

  • Sorien

    The best thing Orks have isn’t even in the codex (Zhadsnark).

    • euansmith

      Da best fin abart Orkz iz everyfin!

    • AreyouaNazi? Isthatyourelf?

      The best thing chaos has is IA13. I feel your pain my green brother.

    • Necro Alienerd

      Exactly, its laughable that something written in 2009/2010 by FW is the most competitive thing orks have going for them in 2015, even after a new dex.

    • Deacon Ix

      Still morning the loss of Wazdakka

  • standardleft

    Now, if we just removed those nasty points…

    • Thomson

      Jup. What GW did with AoS was finally admitting that they will never get points right. They never did. Strip the points out of the codices and let the community make them up. Currently I am afraid that rolling 1d 300 as point value for a unit works as good as what they do now.

      • standardleft

        I feel points are a left over relic from a past age. Sure they can work, but there must be something better we can use create fun and challenging games.

        • Hadrian

          I feel like stats are a relic left over from a past age. Sure they can work, but there must be something better we can use to create fun and challenging games.

          Besides. Age of Sigmar shows that Games Workshop cannot be trusted to come up with any stats for any unit. Even without points.

          • standardleft

            I think stats are good a way of assigning an abstract number to describe a monster. Is there another way to do it?

            In regards to points, Its not a tabletop game, but MTG doesn’t use points to value cards, but seems to produce a fun competitive environment. I can’t think of a gaming system that doesn’t use stats.

          • Nameless

            would the mana cost of a card not be comparable to a points cost? A more powerful card will generally have a higher mana cost limiting its play to the later turns.

            true you could build a deck only with the powerful end game cards but you would be run over before you got to play them.

          • AreyouaNazi? Isthatyourelf?

            Ok, I’ll break this down.

            -First, every unit must have a starting cost. That is the base line. It may be something like an Imperial Guardsman for example, with mild stats across the board. Next, you assign a points value to this unit, perhaps 6 or 7 points.
            -From here, you then will modify the unit to turn it into something else. To do this, you will change stat lines and add special rules.
            -For every change you make, you must add a cost in points, either positive or negative, depending on what you have done. So, for example, in turning a guardsman into a marine, you will increase his WS, BS, S, T, I, Ld & Sv. So for every two of these (rounding up), you may arbitrarily decide to add 1 point. Now, your 7 point Guardsman is 11 points. -Now you add new rules to the unit. In this case, we gain ‘and they shall know no fear’, ‘chapter tactics’ and ‘combat tactics’. For each of these we will also add one point. Now our marine costs the same as TWO guardsmen, however, the price now reflects his increased stats, armour and weaponry far better.

            That is how you write and develop balance. You can further refine it, but it’s pretty simple. Where GW failed is that they continually assigned more and more rules to certain units without modifying the points. Chaos Marines stats have changed for the worse over the last 15 years, and marines have got 2 more amazing special rules yet they have CLOSED the gap. GW is terrible at this aspect of game design.

          • Sutr

            glad it ain’t you developing the game then. it’s not just a simple action of adding points. you need to classify it on other levels. the example you described works “semi-well” eneughf but once you start adding bigger creatures, vehicles, army sinergies and focus, etc it all comes sliding down.

            GW isn’t particularly good at that aspect of game design but you, standing there badmouthing other peoples work are simply clueless about even the subject you are criticizing.

            on another note, while everyone compares the price of a single marine you fail to realize that single marines was never what won games. the elites with different abilities do the killing, not the marines/guardsmen/firewarrior/guardian/etc wich everyone compares.

          • standardleft

            Yeah its a point system in a sense. I would say if differs slightly as it limits creatures by time. There is a delay before you can get your massive guys out. In Warhammer you get all your guys from the start.

            Mana is also a good way to help newer players structure a deck. Points don’t really reflect the amount of guys you need in an army, Warhammer uses force org or key words to do that.

            Mana can also be generated in interesting ways. Points as they stand now in warhammer are very boring to use (in a gameplay sense).

            It is changing a bit with the new formations allowing you get points essentially for free or to sacrifice value for special abilities.

            An example of a alternate system:
            You take 2 core, that grants you access to 1 special choice. Maybe after 4 core and 2 special choices you get access to a hero?

            This could have less efficient units grant access to other units that combo well with them, or have elite units that restrict options.

          • Nameless

            I feel I could write an article on what Games Workshop could learn from Magic. I would say that a good points system should encourage the player to take things at differing costs for differing rolls in the same way as mana costs do in magic.

            your alternate system unfortunately doesn’t take into account the asymmetrical army design in 40k. Units have never been equal to the units in another book nor does it really account for the wildly varying unit sizes.

        • euansmith

          The formations are maybe a step in the right direction. They have the potential to give players fluffy and fun lists rather than allowing them to go through a codex and cherry pick an ugly amalgam of the toughest units in a book.

        • plasmaspam

          But without points and stats, how is this any more than a game of pew-pew with your GI Joes?

          Not trying to troll in asking this, am genuinely worried about the trends AoS seems to be setting.

          • standardleft

            Stats are very much needed to describe abstractly what’s happening on the battlefield. Gotta have stats!

            I think points as they are, are a bit boring to use. Unlike mana, there really isn’t any gameplay to them.

            I’m not sure getting rid of them entirely is the best step, but its refreshing to have a blank slate to try out ideas.

      • David Leimbach

        Except the community just moved on to using another value “wounds” that was never intended as a balancing factor. AoS just shows that there are people who don’t really care that much about rules and just want to throw some dice and move some nice models around.
        For the rest of us, AoS is an abomination.

  • pad_uk

    And yet my friend plays 3 out of 5 of those (DE, Tyrandis, CM) and almost never loses! With any of them, no matter who he plays against. Weird.

    • Risto Olavi Welling

      He knows his enemies weakness and his advantages and knows how to benefit from these. I have similar friend, but he plays just Chaos and Tyranids.

    • kobalt60

      i also play 3 of those, orks, CSM and DE, and i win as much as i lose, and always enjoy the games. If you find you just can’t win or have fun with those lists, i would suggest it may not be the book that is weak

      • Charon

        No you also need opponents that are not on your level. Most of the time I read such things it is right before anectotes like “and then his terminator lord charged into my talos and got instant killed. Such a good army!”

        • ZeeLobby

          This. Completely this. If you’re running these books and winning 50% of the time, your meta is just not THE meta…

      • Robomummy

        It is my finding that many people who look to the internet for advice on what is a good army and what isn’t don’t really know what strategy is or how to use units that work well together.

    • WellSpokenMan

      So your friend is a good player who knows his codices. It’s true that’s more important than the codex itself, but that has nothing to do with this article. Give two equal players CSM and Eldar and see who wins.

    • AreyouaNazi? Isthatyourelf?

      Never loses with CSM? I bet he is playing against solid opponents with solid armies…

      https://youtu.be/lOd4BCsWD9Y

    • Autumnlotus

      Must be either really good in a casual environment, or the community is awful at the game. Deldar are super good against someone spamming platoons in impguard, not so much against space marine drop pod strikes or tau shenanigans

      • ZeeLobby

        Or pretty much anything else, as a DE player here. The addition of Knights pretty much ruined imperial gameplay, and GMCs being immune to poison pretty much ended that route. Not to mention, most comps that attempt to balance the field only hurt DE even more (like highlander).

        • Autumnlotus

          Honestly if haemonculus cults weren’t so expensive for models I would always suggest them over vanilla deldar. Grotesques are especially good at mauling marines to death. No way to really kill IKs, but you can just ask for your openent to not bring them. Because we all know this would never win at tournies xD

          • ZeeLobby

            Yeah, agree there. Honestly the best way to open armor with DE, besides weight of shots, has always been in CC with elites,HQs,etc. My wyches used to do great just holding things up, with a 4+ FnP (that loss of FnP, both the 4+ and having it to start, and exploding open tops doing S4 really hurt). Problem is 40k, with Eldar, SM, Knights and now the new Tau has really just become a shooting gallery, where the only CC units to survive depend completely on invisibility.

    • ZeeLobby

      For reals!?!?! Sure the rest of the group only plays Thousand Sons, but SOMEHOW he manages to beat them EVERY TIME!!! GENIUS!

  • Risto Olavi Welling

    I love to play with ORK’s, and wouldn’t change them to any other army. I have more than 100 plays with new codex and I have won more than 1/3 but less than half. My biggest issue is not having many new tools.

    • Fluffy the destroyer

      Amen to that my orky bruvah

    • JJ

      I just want a Kult of Speed supplement! Some of us want to play something other than Green Tide!

  • Djbz

    Want to feel powerful with Dark Eldar?
    Play against a traditional Tyranid swarm. (You’ll need atrociously bad luck to lose)

    Also I don’t get why people rate the “Flyrant” Orks can field a Dakkajet with similar firepower (but ap 4) for 100pts cheaper.
    Definatly one of the best Flyers in the game that.

    • Fluffy the destroyer

      As an ork player I can answer why the flyrant is better
      Bs4

      • Djbz

        Technically better, I wouldn’t consider it 100 pts worth better.
        Especially when facing Imperial Guard or dark eldar (you can bring down a Flyrant with lasguns or splinter rifles, can’t do that to a Dakkajet

        • Fluffy the destroyer

          True but the flyrant also has an armour save
          And has ap2 melee capability
          And is a psyker
          And a synapse creature

          • Moke

            And stays at full strength until it dies. Whereas the Dakkajet can get stunned and shaken. It can have its weapons blown off. The only way to neutralise the Flyrant is to kill it or force it to Jink, which considering you can’t instakill it without D or Force, is hard to do.

          • MikeHollstrom

            I’ve never seen anyone have any real trouble killing a flyrant in a turn or two tho’
            not saying compared to a dakkajet, but it’s not like the flyrant can take a beating 😛

          • AreyouaNazi? Isthatyourelf?

            Ok, go to chaos space marines with no anti-air and see how long the Flyrant lasts. Short of slashing at it with Helldrakes, it’s there to stay.

          • MikeHollstrom

            ooh, one super old crappy army may have some difficulties with it. I’m impressed! 😀

          • AreyouaNazi? Isthatyourelf?

            Super old? Three years just ticked over, there are some armies which have taken literally ten years to get an update. So, what may have trouble? Dark Angels and Sisters of Battle come straight to mind, with neither having anything resembling spectacular anti-air. Blood Angels and Wolves? Maybe they can use their ridiculous giant fliers to take them down?

            I get the vibe you play in a group of gamers who play certain armies a certain way and it has coloured your views due to evolution in isolation. I could be wrong, but it’s how you come off.

          • MikeHollstrom

            it seems to be a wierd common theme on bols comments to win arguments by trying to peg someone into a grouping with a negative effect.
            True, there are no SoB players here but Flyrants can get shot to hell with pretty much anything s4 or (preferably) more. 4 wounds isn’t that much, perils once or fail a grounding test becuase you take a wound and half your wounds are gone.

            just to make it clear I’m talking about taking down a single flyrant, in case that wasn’t clear 🙂

          • Charon

            There are nid armies that use a single flyrant? I thought the codex was called codex: Flyrant and mines nowadays?

          • MikeHollstrom

            haha yeah I realized people might think flyrants are tough because there’s like three of them. I was however talking about the survivability of A Flyrant

          • Charon

            It is always about multiple threats. It is the same like peple claiming that a single imperial knight is not soo tough but do forget that there is a single imperial knight + centurions + white scar bikers + another random nastyness that eats up your firepower.
            The same mistake you made. Yes, if you focus it down, it is not that tough. But if you do you also ignore the other stuff that comes your way and eats you up while you tired to kill the flyrant.

  • benn grimm

    Orks and DE are worst, CSM at least have multiple FW books, supplements etc and daemon allies to mitigate the terrible parent codex.

    • AreyouaNazi? Isthatyourelf?

      It really doesn’t fix the problem because it often allows chaos to make units that are roughly analogous to marine units but at a high price range and lacking the diversity out of the core book.

      Seriously, watch this and take it in.

      https://youtu.be/lOd4BCsWD9Y

      • Orodruin

        We don’t want to watch your video, FFS please stop linking it every 5 comments.

        • AreyouaNazi? Isthatyourelf?

          I like the video and it’s easier than writing a comment saying why something sucks, which I’ve also done throughout this thread. Perhaps you can complain about that too?

      • benn grimm

        I’ve heard most of these grumbles before and agree with a lot of it. Tbf all the codexes from the first half of the ed are pretty rubbish. Arguably equally bad.

  • Dustin Dean

    Somehow, Dark Eldar and Blood Angels are two of the most allied armies…

    • Charon

      DE because of open topped transports and WWP which is actually pretty strong if you have units that can use them properly (Wraithguard, Aspect host fire dragons). There is a big difference between pinpoint deepstriking 20 poison AP5 shots and 5 D Flamers.

    • Blood Angels Flesh Tearer SF- “HEY I can take a Sanguinary Priest for some FNP, a min scout squads and 6 drop pods for my army of Iron Hands Grav-cents.” – This a strong codex does not make.

      • Dustin Dean

        I didn’t argue that being an ally choice makes it a strong codex… I should elaborate that DE and BA do have redeeming value in having very popular/powerful pieces that get overlooked because of whining about codex creep.

  • Krd Da Levitator

    I play Dark Eldar, and if you just get some formation going on (Corpsethief Claw, *cough*, *cough*), i´ve been victorious for the last five games or something like that…My other army is Eldar, and i rather play with DE –> less complaining from the opponent 😉

    • Charon

      No supplements included was the deal of the article…

      • Krd Da Levitator

        Oh, then the DE codex can be “challenging” 🙂

        • Autumnlotus

          Hard mode armies should reward you for your challenge. Like the tyranid unending swarm rules. Maybe for deldar make it so losing a wound on a haemonculus has u roll on a augment chart? Or give the transports maneuvers ala impguard orders?

  • chuckwilliams

    Didnt someone win LVO last year with Bugs?

    • Charon

      And an imperial bastion, 3 flyrants, 3 mawlocks, MSU lictors and mines.
      Also keep in mind that it was written to counter the LVO meta and will probably die a horrible death in games that are not restricted like the LVO.

      • chuckwilliams

        Still. I love the logic here. By having people say something is underpowered, it skews the meta and makes it more powerful by default, because nobody thinks to counter it. Just like, logically, every new codex release should change the points value of every unit in every other codex. For instance, AM release makes melta worth more points.

        • Charon

          No. It is not more powerful because “nobody thinks to counter it”.
          It is more powerful when things that can hurt you or things you cant hurt are changed/banned.
          Imagine you have an unregulated game.
          We have 2 armies. One with tons of formations and allies and one without. There is a big advantage for the first army as it has a lot more options and power.
          Now we bring them to a tourney where the TO says “only one additional detachment”.
          Suddenly army two is not so much weaker anymore as we basically just eradicated the advantage of army 1.
          Now we see that our army is basically useless against superheavies. Knights can ruin our day as there is no weapon in the book to fight them efficiently.
          We have a disadvantage here as every other army could bring a superheavy. The TO says “no superheavies” and suddenly the disadvantage is gone without us doing anything.

          The meta question is hardly about “nobody knows how to deal with it” it is more which armies are better in abusing the meta.
          The “lictor shame” list that won LVO is a classic MSU list that is really good in objective based games. Now change the meta and let the TO say “it is all about killpoints now” suddenly the list becomes terrible and deathstars got even stronger.

          Undrpowered is an oberservation in an open meta. As you shift the meta units can get better or worse. But you should try to argue in an open setting (because this is waht you play on a weekly shedule) and not on a tourney meta that is played once a year by a tiny fraction of players.

          • chuckwilliams

            I’m following your logic, but maybe you’re missing mine. Everything I said stands in both cases. When Space Marines get the option to pick three Predators in one Heavy slot, it makes Melta more powerful by default.

          • Charon

            Only if it is beeing utilized. And if it is, it makes CSM weaker at the same time (as they can not field 3 in one slot). Besides Melter are useful even if there is not a single tank around. The ability to ID T4 and AP1 is gold for such a cheap weapon.
            A big difference is also the transport option. A melter unit does benefit a lot from a drop pod for example and gets more unseful when applied in such a unit.
            That is why you do not always rate certain units in a vacuum but with all synergies considered.

          • chuckwilliams

            Right. But the synergies change as codices are released.

            Also, I feel that ID on T4 is of tertiary importance compared to the Melta rule. In most cases, rapid firing plasma is a much better alternative.

          • Charon

            Synergies in the book do not change. An army with a twin linked melter will always hit better than an army with a melter (for the same points).
            You could argue that effectiveness does increase/decrease with new codices, but this is also quite minor if nobody happens to play that new army in your area. If your meta is smurf dominated it will stay smurf dominated even when a new IG codex is released.
            This is only a concearn in a tournament meta where a new “hot” codex might shift the meta from 50% Space Marines to 20% Space Marines and 40% Imperial Guard. But this has no impact on local metas.
            Let us see the Tau codex for example. It had ZERO consequences for me as nobody in my area plays tau. But it will have at bigger tournaments or other areas.

          • Autumnlotus

            A army doesn’t become strong for having a specific list that can win. Chaos marines aren’t good because people ally them to daemons for Belakor, and Deldar aren’t good because of WWP archons. You look at the whole army, and how it stacks up to the entire game

  • Orks are worse than Chaos by A LOT. It’s not even close. CSM can hold their own in a bolter-war with Orks. Now move past that and we see that Orks have NO options and no survivability (and pay handsomely for NOTHING!). CSM my be overcosted, but they still have options and a measurable leadership and, um… ARMOR saves! I can’t believe people keep saying Chaos is worse than Orks. SMH so hard right now. (and yes, I play BOTH, on top of seven other armies, so this isn’t a “I read it on a blog once” argument”)

    • AreyouaNazi? Isthatyourelf?

      I call BS. The Orks have a lack in a one vs one fight, to be sure, however, you have wider access to fearless than chaos, and chaos’ buffs are hatred against marines. In a one vs one with marines, chaos will always come off worst. With Orks, you can put more on the table, as well as dominating the air and having access to viable delivery options, whilst chaos relies on one tank that they can’t charge from, and another tank which only fits 10 and takes up the most hotly contested force org slot in the Dex. You HQ is also a higher strength and toughness, and you have equal or better access to Invul saves.

      • I’m sorry, how do we have more fearless than Chaos? We have to take a lord of war, a 160 pt character, or a special formation that costs over $300 to build, and it still only affects a small radius (if not a single unit). Chaos has six units in their book that START fearless. Invuln saves? Where? Have you read the newer Ork codex at all? As far as the vehicles, well, you still have a Land Raider and a Rhino, so you are exactly even with the Orks (and charging from vehicles doesn’t matter when the target kills you before you even get to swing). As far as more bodies… yeah, that’s orks. But that doesn’t mean anything because they don’t hit anything and don’t survive long enough to slap anything. So the more bodies argument means little (other than the overcosted thing that BOTH codices suffer, moreso for the green guys). Call BS, but back it up with facts. 🙂

        • AreyouaNazi? Isthatyourelf?

          Why chaos sucks? No real anti-air or a true flier, the Helldrake is a one trick pony beyond its uses. Our army is heavily based around close combat and yet we pay through the teeth for units that are easily countered and lack the delivery platforms. Our ranged weaponry is a joke, as our our standard troops, leading almost every single chaos army to be the same rough list: Cultists, Helldrakes and Oblits. Say what you will about Orks, but at least ork models make it onto the able, chaos space marines rarely make an appearance in their own codex. This is not to say you have a good codex. You don’t, it is terrible, but it’s a very different kind of terrible.

          We have to compete directly with space marines and universally they get the same units and many more, with a ton of special rules thrown in for free on top. Orks however have no direct competitor, and have yet to find their niche due to much of their force being overpriced and their fluff slowly degrading as more and more derpy writers try to make them into something more serious, draining the flavour every time. But at least you have flavour still. Your characters don’t auto-challenge enemies in combat, they don’t explode and turn into spawn if they somehow survive. They don’t turn into a random daemon prince, get removed from combat, stripped of all their equipment and then placed into the open a second later. You don’t have to rely on only a single delivery platform which can’t even hold 6 bulky models. A chaos Lord can’t even accompany 5 terminators in a raider. The flaws go on.
          https://youtu.be/lOd4BCsWD9Y

          • I don’t disagree with your assessment that the Chaos book could be better. But you’re still not understanding the differences between Orks and CSM. Orks see the table (they don’t, Ork BIKERS see the table), but they’re no good once they’re on it. Your flier is still better than mine (Three supashootas with a BS of 2 and an armor of 10 is NOT good, and that’s why every CSM detachment in the world takes at least one (if not three) hellturkeys), your auto-challenge rule at least comes laden with a character that will survive long enough to give it an attempt and then gains even MORE special rules if they win, and the risk that it goes poorly is still better than the FACT that it will go poorly with Orks. I have lost dozens or PK Nobs to simple chaos champs with maces and power fists (the first chaps me and the second offends me), but you know, it’s okay considering you HAVE TO challenge, right? I have now stopped taking nobs against CSM, but Chaos is worse, huh?
            Finally, and I think this is the biggest point that you’re missing- we ALL have to compete with Marines and Eldar and the other cheeze stuff. At least you get analogous units. We don’t. Orks are terribad all the time, which explains why EVERY Ork army in a real game includes the Bully Boyz mob, the Mek-Stompa, and Zharsnarf and his biker boys. Add the occasional appearance of Lootas and a Dakkajet and you’re looking at the entire army’s effectiveness (and still not effective in most cases). While Chaos may have a hard time competing with Marines, Orks just don’t. Our codex is not only old and busted, but we are also ignored because Chaos players are still mad post-3.5. Chaos sucks. Orks suck more.

          • AreyouaNazi? Isthatyourelf?

            I think we have to agree to disagree. It’s been fun tho, so don’t take it as me insulting you. But as a 20 odd year CSM player, your opinion seems as crazy to me as mine probably does to you.

            I have to laugh because another Ork player is commenting along this thread calling your flier superior to the Flyrant. You should go talk to him XD

          • LOL! I play both, so I’m literally comparing both in exact same situations (because I use both armies to play the same group) and I own EVERYTHING (as in I used to work for the company and took full advantage of it). So I’m not thinking that your opinion is crazy, just lacks severe perspective (i.e., play both then judge).
            As far as the flyrant argument- I don’t have to get involved. That discussion is already going well and his argument wasn’t specific to begin with.
            Also, thank you for being actually halfway dece. It’s nice to see disagreements not turn into name-calling on these sites. It’s all still just a game
            😀

          • AreyouaNazi? Isthatyourelf?

            I’ve played Orks a fair bit too, I just found the codex more a bland dumbing down of the Orks, with things mostly beiing diometrically opposed across the Dex. Good at causing damage, but bad at taking it, and a sister unit being good at receiving damage but terrible at giving it. Like the Gorka and Morka. It doesn’t kill the Dex for me, it just tastes sour.

            It is nice talking decently. I posted a video a few times that I like talking about chaos sucking, rather than repeatedly typing out long winded answers, and some people got into me. It’s like “why? You don’t watch the video, you don’t read my text, who cares? At least I’m not wasting my time typing long responses.”

          • I would agree if I could find something that causes damage in that book. 10 warbikers with twin-hvy bolters can’t kill three marines in a turn of shooting and boyz even on the charge rarely roll more than 20 dice back (despite starting with upwards of 80). That’s my problem- I play against CSM regularly with my Orks and find myself wanting to quit 40k. When I use my Chaos Marines, I place at tournies (and I’m using Word Bearers, so lord knows I’m not even using the GOOD legions). That’s how I judge one over the other- I can’t beat the red when using the green and I easily win when I’m the red and someone else is using the green.
            As far as the videos- don’t you know nobody watches videos on this site? They’ve tried video battle reports (and even shortened them) and still can’t get people hooked. It’s so much easier for people to read and type than watch and wait. (and in full disclosure, I didn’t watch the video either. I’m not disagreeing with the sentiment, just the order. And I’m lazy and supposed to be doing homework right now, but I’ll stick with the “don’t need to” argument as it sounds better. lol)

  • Warboss Sotane

    At least in a few months, Tyranids will have something that makes them Op just like every Codex release since Craftowrld. And my poor Orks, someone help them.

  • OrksIsMadeFerRockin

    I have 4000 plus point armies for three out of five of the armies on this list. Pick up games can be uhh tough. BA and pure DE do okay if you know what your opponent is going to bring. BA can be fairly resilient being marines with easy access to fnp and can really load up on the special weapons when using some of the formations/ alternate detachments, and DE have to be a scalpel used to take out those lynchpin units early because when your opponent starts shooting back your army disentigrates (kind of what it’s supposed to be I guess if only it worked better). Them orks tho. So bad they make the kill ratio vs black library marines seem believable. Gone are the days of twenty-one wound fearless power klaws trucking up the board in a battle wagon and mulching multiple units and my warboss getting lucky on his invuls and eating an avatar of khaine. Seems like most armies on this list got shafted with the changes to assault and not pulling models from the back. That just means they will be better next time right guys?!!!?1

  • Koszka

    Cool recycled filler article brah. Generate new content much?

  • Robomummy

    lets just clear up one thing, None of these codices are actually bad. it is just that they don’t measure up well to the 2++ save-ultra-spehsmarinez-D-weapon-kill-you-from-across-the-room- xenos/imperial-besties that much of 40k has become.

    At my LGS we have a good mix of armies and some of the best games I have seen are between chaos space marines (who currently lead our local meta with a dreadnaught heavy list) and Eldar D spam. Any good player can make a codex work for them, they just may have options that aren’t as broken as other armies.

    • AreyouaNazi? Isthatyourelf?

      Chaos has been bad since release, and the builds all rely on the same tired sad formulas, almost never including any actual space marines in the force. That isn’t due to Eldar and Soace Marines as they stand now, it was a problem at the start of 6th when the book was brand new, ‘designed’ for 6th but repeatedly smashed by the books from 5th!

      https://youtu.be/lOd4BCsWD9Y

      • Robomummy

        I wont deny that it has had it’s problems but it is not useless. Plenty of stuff in the Chaos book can be absolutely devastating to other armies. Have you never faced a plague marine horde of T5 marines or rubric marines? the amount of psychic dice they can generate can rival daemons and they can get really nasty. Yeah they are a bit overcosted for what they do but that doesn’t make them bad.

        • AreyouaNazi? Isthatyourelf?

          Watch the video debunk your opinion.

          • Robomummy

            why? why should i care about someone saying a book is bad when I have used it and it works fine?

          • AreyouaNazi? Isthatyourelf?

            Should you care? No, but it isn’t fine, that is the consensus by 99% of people, for demonstrateable (edit) reasons. You can’t give your annecdotal evidence “I find it ok” and expect it to carry the same weight as a group of people pointing at flaws in numerous and repeated examples.

          • Robomummy

            I’m not expecting it to carry the same weight, that is why it is called an opinion and not a fact. Every codex has its own flaws, if you cant find a way to make it work then it isn’t the army for you but that doesn’t make it bad, it just means you can’t use it to its full potential. Yes the CSM book is showing its age and yes it is not as good as some other books out there but that doesn’t mean that people should discount it out of hand. If you are a good player then you should usually be able to find a way to make it work for you.

          • AreyouaNazi? Isthatyourelf?

            That makes no sense, that’s blaming the user. It’s like saying if you take a Beetle to a drag race and lose to a Lamborgini that you are at fault. You should have brought a lambo yourself. But you can’t have one, you have a beetle, and no amount of skill will get you the win, unless the other driver is significantly worse.

            You shouldn’t need to jump ship because your codex is terrible, yet that is what you’re saying to do. Suggesting that people just don’t know how to use it is incredibly insulting to them, as you’re putting the faults all on them. It’s simply not true, it sucks, it’s proven to suck, and IA 13 and Daemons are the only thing holding it up in any shape or form.

          • Robomummy

            Yes I am blaming the user, if they can’t figure out how to make their codex work then they wont win a lot of games. It’s the same for all codices.

          • AreyouaNazi? Isthatyourelf?

            Well, yes and no. Two equally matched players in talent and understanding of their forces meet, and one brings Eldar and one brings Orks, and the Ork player loses its their fault? For what? Taking their beloved army?

          • Robomummy

            no, it just means they lost. sometimes you lose and you didn’t do anything wrong, the other person just had better rolls or played better it doesn’t mean you are a bad player. What makes you a bad player is if you start whining and feeling sorry for yourself when your army doesn’t stack up against others and you don’t try to do something about it.

          • AreyouaNazi? Isthatyourelf?

            That doesn’t make you a bad player. If you’re a tournament winner, if you’re in the top 20 in your country, and you can’t keep the Dex competitive, that’s not your fault. Every codex is supposed to be in some way equal, you shouldn’t have to rely on luck and such to get you across the line. Sadly, that’s not the case, and it doesn’t make them a bad player, people are allowed to be angry if they’re repeatedly dealt a terrible codex, it’s something you’re passionate about and it hurts to have passions ruined. Also, as a customer, the company does have a duty to you, to provide the product you want to purchase. If you don’t like what they’ve done, it doesn’t make you a whinger, complaining for no reason is what makes a whinger, and a well founded complaint isn’t whinging, it’s asking for change. Movie critics do it all the time, but the minute ‘wargame critics’ appear, they are judged incredibly harshly by apologists and people who take their opinions too far.

          • Robomummy

            if you truly have done all you can do and you still never win with your book then fine, since that is not the case the point is moot. I don’t care if you are the best 40k player in the country, you should still find a way to make it work. From what you are saying you seem to believe the codex is irredeemable and that nobody could possible win with it, that is not the case. If it was than that would be different.

            yes the game should be balanced but it isn’t and it’s not going to be anytime soon. You have to make do with what you have and if you cant do that then i don’t know what to tell you.

            If you really believe the codex to be unusable then don’t use it. Just don’t abandon it because a person on the internet tells you it could never work.

          • AreyouaNazi? Isthatyourelf?

            It can win games, but you’re losing sight of what you love about it to do so. Cultists, Hellturkey, Obliterators all the time is boring and bad. The basic troops in the book are useless, and the codex fails on multiple levels in one on one comparisons with the loyalist codex. That’s what makes it a failure, that it is just bad in every way, mediocre fluff, poor rules, poor units, etc. all combines together to make it a bad book.

          • Robomummy

            What if i told you that there is more in the book than just Cultists, Helldrakes, and Obliterators. What if I told you that you had access to 20 man strong squads of space marines with special rules you can add to give them invul saves, higher toughness, more attacks, etc. Honestly how is that bad?

        • Commissar Molotov

          I love my Death Guard army, but the truth is that while they can take punishment, they just can’t dish it out in return.

          • Robomummy

            they don’t need to by themselves, The way I see plague marines is as a tarpit/ bullet shield for other threats. Just focus on the mission with them (they can hold objectives really well) and they will usually serve you well.

          • Autumnlotus

            That is a dumb way to use plague marines, this coming from a heavy Nurgle user. They cost way to much to soak up gunfire when there is so much high S AP3 weapons in the meta. Play against mechguard or tau to see what happens. The plague marines are best used in rhinos with MSU w/ special weapons, or as a larger squad bodyguard for your HQ (mine being Necrosis). You want shields? Get you some plague zombies. In the Purge detachment you can have up to 6(?) Units of 10 wandering around the field to be mobile cover and to hold objectives.

  • crazyredpraetorian

    Do you even 40K , Bra?

  • How about troop Assault Marines for Blood Angels instead of another Free Rhino Battle Company derivative…

    • AreyouaNazi? Isthatyourelf?

      I think marines need a new rhino chassis vehicle, a 7 seat Razorback variant, with different gun… With skyfire. Cos reasons.

  • Vogon

    Well if we’re talking stand alone with no allies then one of the top (or should that be bottom) 5 needs to be Sister of Battle. They have such limited options and will struggle against pretty much everyone. Power armour and a 6 up invun can only do so much when you’re T3 and have zero access to anything more destructive than a multi melter.

    They have no access in their own codex to flyers or anything with sky fire so its allies or a fortification to stand any sort of real chance of knocking anything out of the sky

    • Autumnlotus

      What’s sad is that sisters are probably better then chaos marines and Orks if u make their required dominion Immolator squads and exorcist duo teams. Not perfect, but far more reliable then lulzrandom of the other two

  • Phenomenonx82 .

    1. Chaos Space Marine Codex
    2. Chaos Space Marine Codex
    3. Chaos Space Marine Codex
    4. Chaos Space Marine Codex
    5. Chaos Space Marine Codex

  • Aaron

    guard have moved up thanks to the Montka supplement, they are upper mid tier now

  • WellSpokenMan

    Nothing to see here comrades. My friend Vlad wins all the time with these codices. They are very stronk. Since Vlad wins, 40k must be balanced. 40k is great game for everybody.

    • Havik110

      since your friend vlad wins i remove all of my complaints and admit I must just suck…

  • Spacefrisian

    Odd that Dark Eldar and Chaos are even in the list, oh wait its a case of players not being able to figure out how to make deathstars with them?

    Youtube tells a different story, but i know, that doesnt count, and my own roflstomping DE army doesnt count either.

    • Charon

      If you watch youtube you see a lot of toned down armies when it is against pure DE while DE play their strongest build (which is basically the same in every video). Or you see DE with convenient CWE battlebrothers (or like Skared put it in his “Dark Eldar” videos: “The best unit of the game was once again my warpspiders”).
      Personal anectotes are nice but do not really contribute. It is like saying “but Pyrovores are the best unit in the game! I know this because last game they killed a bloodthirster!”
      Unless the circumstances are known it is pretty much void. Sorry, I dont see your DE beating Scatterbikes and Wraithknights or your chaos army White Scar grav bikers.

    • Havik110

      ive played DE as my main army for over 15 years…this codex is not as fun as the 3rd edition pamphlet and then when they came out with necrons you could see it go down…

      I dont want to play with Death stars but the CC with DE but in case you havent notice since 6th, normal troop CC doesnt work any more.Especially not T3 St3 troops with no armor save and random charge. you know how my wyches killed people in 4th? With 2 blasters, and the agoniser, and if any of the normal girls killed someone extra it was cake.

      we have a 250 point flyer with 2 lascannons (they arent even twin linked) explain how I havent figured out how to make that work again.

      Our raiders die at 24 inches, they have done nothing to make them effective in 6th or 7th since the change to shooting. There is more shooting in 1 turn of 7th than an entire game of 4th, but i havent figured out how to make raiders work. Then they changed night shields and guess what, i cant out range anyone, but thats because no one figured out how to make them work. that was how we survived, sit at 36, take out anything long range and move and night shields protected you…not any more…

  • eehaze

    Obliterators represent what CSM -should- be: Unpredictable but controllable, a more flexible version of the SM Centurion.

    Some particulary cringe-worthy units in the CSM Codex:
    1. Chaos Space Marines squads are identical to Tactical Marines, except they lose two special rules (one of those rules is, arguably, the best special rule in the game). The loss of these rules only comes with a ONE POINT discount.
    2. Helbrutes are identical to loyalist Dreadnoughts, except they lose their best weapon configuration. They’re also saddled with an unpredictable and poorly-written table. You know what’s fun, as a walker? Getting immoblilized by your codex during close combat.

    • AreyouaNazi? Isthatyourelf?

      Actually, marines have three special rules, ATSKNF, chapter tactics and combat tactics.

  • Graeme Donaldson

    I play Dark Eldar, Tyranids and Chaos Space Marines. I’ve forgotten what it’s like to win except against armies in this list. The Covens book for DE makes them usable but otherwise it’s just more terrible balancing from GW.

  • Svenone

    Lightning rod post for sure. Is CSM #1 because it’s the worst? Or are these in no particular order. If we’re talking codex then I really think you need to put DE as #1.

    Really not sure how Nids are the worst. I see plenty of players do really well with them.

  • krootman

    Bugs were in first place in nova out of 164 players when they cut to top 16…with 6 flyrants LOL, that book may as well be called codex flyrant

  • Deacon Ix

    I have come to numb acceptance of CSM and cheese them up with summoning daemon allies, my biggest shock was teh nerf of BA when C:SM came out

  • cudgel

    I sure am not salty that when I decided to come back to 40k early this year I decided to go Chaos Marines, nope not at all.

  • Mikillangelo

    My army is Orks and Chaos Marines. This feels so awesome. I’ve never been at the top of a list before.

  • Muncho

    How are Space Wolves Better then Blood Angels???

  • Alex Williams

    Everything not guard.