40K Deep Thought: Why is it a Vehicle or Monstrous Creature?

 

 

mack-Question

How exactly does Games Workshop classify Vehicles as Vehicles or Monstrous Creatures as Monstrous Creatures?

Hey BoLS Readers, AdamHarry here with a question for you – What makes a Vehicle a Walker in some cases and a Monstrous/Gargantuan Creature in others?

First lets all make sure we’re on the same page and qualify our terminology so we can have an actual discussion about this.

Vehicle  A machine with an Armor Value and Hull Points as described in the BRB pg 72. Vehicles typically have a pilot or crew of some type. They also loose combat effectiveness as they are damaged or can be “One-shot” if the damage roll is high enough.

Walker – A Vehicle sub-type that has mechanical limbs for movement and generally moves like an Infantry Model.

Creatures – (dictionary definition) – an animal or person (aka a living thing).

Monstrous Creature – (BRB pg. 67) Creatures to big to be considered mere Infantry. Typically Bioengineered or Evolved to serve a specific purpose. They have a Toughness Value and Wounds. They do not loose combat effectiveness until it is completely destroyed (aka looses all its wounds). Can be “One-shot” if the Strength value vs Toughness is high enough or if hit with a D weapon and the roll is high enough (in most cases).

Gargantuan Creatures – (BRB pg. 70) Even Larger Creatures than Monstrous Creatures.

Are we all in agreement with the terms? I hope so – lets continue and compare a few examples of each with their backgrounds to see if they line up.

Space Marine Dreadnought

560px-SMDreadnoughtArt

A Space Marine Dreadnought is a large, walking tank which carries both powerful guns and lethal close combat weaponry, armoured to withstand all but the most powerful of enemy firepower and often relied on by Space Marine forces to tear an opening in enemy defenses. Each Dreadnought contains a living being, permanently interfaced with the machine through a form of Mind Impulse Unit.

The Dreadnought has:

  • A pilot
  • Is mechanical
  • Mechanical limbs
  • Other mechanical systems.

Rules wise it makes sense that it has Hull Points and an Armor Value to reflect those attributes. This one is pretty clear cut.

Tyranid Carnifex

Carnifex

Carnifexes are hulking, powerful Tyranid creatures used as living battering rams. They are often armed with the most powerful Tyranid Bio-weapons, and are used in shock assaults, spaceship boarding actions, massed battles, and for battering through fortified positions and tank formations.

A Carnifex:

  • Is a creature
  • Is bioengineered and evolved
  • Has non-mechincal limbs
  • Has internal organs and living systems

It makes sense that is has a Toughness value and is classified as a Monstrous Creature.

Those two examples are pretty clear cut and it would very hard to argue that a Dreadnought should be a Monstrous Creature or that a Carnifex is a Walker or Vehicle based on the definitions from above. But lets look at some examples that blur that line.

Eldar Wraithlord

WLArt

Wraithlords (also known as Iron KnightsWraith-Giants and Eldar Dreadnoughts) are giant Wraith-constructs made of wraithbone and inhabited by the souls of dead Eldar heroes. Towering far above their still-living brethren, the Wraithlord is a force to be reckoned with. Only the most capable warriors of the Craftworlds are encased inside them. They can be armed with a myriad of weapons, including close combat, short ranged and long ranged weaponry with the ability to smash most enemies in combat.

Wraithlords are:

  • Living Constructs (see Wraithbone for more info)
  • Have a Pilot…sort of. (See Sprit Stones)
  • Have non-mechanical Limbs
  • Does not have “internal” systems

Basically Wraithbone is “Eldar Psychic Plastic” empowered the energy of the Spirit Stone within. Wraithlords are solid Wraithbone contructs – It makes sense the Wraithlord has a Toughness Value and Wounds because as long as the Spirit Stone isn’t destroyed the “Will” of the Eldar ‘pilot’ keeps the construct up and fighting. You could call this a “Hybrid” – yet it’s rules slant toward Monstrous Creature to support those traits.

Dark Eldar Talos Pain Engine

TalosEngine

The Talos is a Dark Eldar Engine of Pain. They are semi-sentient, part organic and part mechanical monsters that slowly drift along on anti-gravitic motors.

The Talos:

  • Is a construct (its built/created by Haemonculi)
  • is semi-sentient
  • part organic
  • part mechanical

The Talos is closer to a cybernetic organism than a true walker. This Hybrid still lacks a pilot and has organic parts surgically upgraded by mechanical additions. It’s also freaky looking. To represent these factors it is classified as a Monstrous Creature. The combination of organic and mechanical parts is represented with a Toughness Value and Wounds.

So based on all these – How do you classify the Tau Battle Suits like the Riptide or Stormsurge?

Tau Stormsurge

600px-KV128Art

The Stormsurge is a heavy weapons platform designed to serve as the Tau Empire‘s Titan killer, created by Earth Caste engineer O’Ishu’ron after Tau forces were frequently being outmatched by Imperial Titans and Super-Heavy Tanks. The KV128 was the first of the Tau’s new generation of heavy artillery assets known as Ballistic Suits. Less maneuverable than a Riptide, such is the power of the Stormsurge’s weapons that the suit is equipped with thrusters and retractable ground anchors to counter recoil. In truth, the Stormsurge is more of a walking tank than a true Battlesuit. Unusually for a Tau battlesuit, the Stormsurge has two crew instead of one. It is operated by a selected pairing of veteran Hammerhead crewmen, who have graduated in the ballistic suit academies on Bork’an. A Shas’vre experienced in Battlesuit piloting controls the suit itself, while a Ves’oni’Vash graduate controls the weapons systems. It is said that crewing a Stormsurge is less prestigious then a standard Battlesuit.The Shas’vre wears a hair braid to signify his rank.

The Stormsurge has:

  • a crew (of two – a pilot and a gunner)
  • is a machine
  • has mechanical limbs
  • has mechanical systems
  • is Open Topped

The Tau don’t have “living” armor technology like Eldar. Their technology is very advanced but, if you blow the leg off of a walker, it shouldn’t be able to move at the same rate it used it. Same with the weapons systems…And yet Games Workshop has classified this “Walking Tank” as a Gargantuan Creature.

So what do you think? What makes a Vehicle a Vehicle or a Monstrous Creature?

What about the Soulgrinder or the Hellbrute?

magic-8-ball

At the end of the day I think it’s a coin flip…

  • Commissar Ahmad

    I definitely agree that the Stormsurge should not be a Gargantuan Creature. It’s purely mechanical and has a crew. That’s a vehicle, not a creature. It should be classified as a Superheavy Walker. The Riptide and Ghostkeel should also be SH Walkers.

  • Besides game balance, maybe mobility plays into it. A Dreadnought or Sentinel is pretty clumsy and unweildy. Tau Suits, Tyranids, Eldar wraith constructs… they all are pretty agile and probably capable of faster and more precise movements.

    • Daggoth

      Tyranids being agile is actually pretty funny with above mentioned carnifex moving astonishing 6 inches:D

      • generalchaos34

        I think they mean more that you can add Jet Pack or jump onto it when vehicles do not have that option

        • Mr.Gold

          classify it as a fast vehicle – it can then move 12″…

          • LotLP

            Or just give it a special rule that lets it move like a jet pack. Boom, problem solved. Not very difficult, GW throws around super special snowflake rules everywhere anyway.

      • Edouard Decaen

        Not agile in the game but in the story.

    • krisbrowne42

      Contemptor Dreadnoughts are fleet & agile walkers, but they’re still walkers.

      From a consistency standpoint, if I had the Big Red Pen both Wraithknights and the Riptide/Stormsurge would be walkers rather than MCs, with all that entails. If need be, give the Wrathknight something like Machine Spirit to reflect the dual-nature of it’s pilots relationship (spirit stone of their twin).

      • Edouard Decaen

        Wraithknight should definetely remain a MC due its particular nature, wraitbone and stuff. And it can explode anyway.

    • Kami

      Its like a Mech vs a Gundam. one has superior mobility and can move like a person would. Thats what wraithknights and tau suits are like to me. Even tyranids can like slither their bodies, crouch down and move past terrain. Thats why they get saves in area terrain. So yes mobility is a huge part. it all started with the DreadKnight which was a giant suit of power armor that responds exactly to its pilots movements and therefore became a monstrous creature because of how it moved.

      • Hunlow

        Well where does the Maulerfiend fit in to this agility discussion? It is still a vehicle but moves like a MC.

        • Kami

          its not about movement its about flexability. Its hunking metal and isnt nearly as agile. But it could easily be one of the chaos vehicles that could be a MC

        • In my mind it’s not about horizontal speed but body agility. How fast and unrestricted it can move its arms/torso, etc.

          Difficult to explain the Idea in my head…
          Look at the difference between a Concorde and a fighter jet. Both have the same top speed when moving straight, but the fighter accellerates better, and turns much tighter, it is more agile.

      • Mech vs. Mecha is a great comparison, actually.

    • Benderisgreat

      A dread or Eldar wraith monster should be more agile than aTau Walker or Sentinel, since the former have minds directly jacked into their machines.

      • Thyran204

        The Tau are jacked straight into their machines as well according to Fire Warrior.

        • Benderisgreat

          But not to the point where they’re cyborgs, like Dreads are.

  • kaptinscuzgob

    the whole walker/MC difference has become so blurred and dumb in recent editions, they should just do away with it and make walkers really tough, really low MCs
    Dont forget the Chaos Dinobots, which are walkers, but theyre more monstrous creaturey than the riptide

    • PrimoFederalist

      Absolutely. The Tau MC/GC suits are so much BS.

    • nurglitch

      I’d like to see multi-wound models roll on the [vehicle] damage table. Have Instant Death add +1, Eternal Warrior subtract -1, and roll once for every three HPs or Ws a super-heavy or gargantuan takes.

  • Richard Mitchell

    This is definitely something that needs an entire rework. Vehicles need to take system damage that affects the performance of the vehicle like they do in Battletech Alpha Strike and Monstrous Creatures should have something similar to what you see in Hordes, or Alpha Strike but damage would affect things that are important to monstrous creatures like stats. I wrote about a little more in depth before but in short it would go a long way in making classification both, simple and more balanced.

    • Ucheny .

      You talking about AoS monstrous creatures – they have wound-stages reflecting their lowering performance

  • Inian

    This line is blurry as heck. Personally I don’t like the vehicle mechanics and would prefer if stuff just had wounds stats so making all walkers into MC’s would be fine by me.

    Now if we could just do something similar with regular tanks that would be awesome. 😛

  • car_tag

    If the Stormsurge is an MC, then Maulerfiends and Soul Grinders should be also. They don’t have pilots, they are sentient daemons bound to a corporeal form against their will. The Stormsurge is an actual vehicle being manned by a crew.

    • car_tag

      Helbrute I’m fine being a walker, it’s a mechanical suit. Granted, it’s one that the pilot has been grafted to, but still a suit.

      All daemon engines should be MC or FMC, as they are sentient daemons, not vehicles being piloted.

      • Damistar

        I think the Helbrute should be an MC. It’s one organic whole, not a pilot and his vehicle. Regular Dreadnoughts are walkers however. I agree with you on daemon engines. The Riptide and Stormsurge should be reclassified to vehicles as well (not superheavy walkers though)

    • Knight_of_Infinite_Resignation

      also defilers and heldrakes.

      • car_tag

        and all the FW daemon engines too.

  • Kaylum Dicks

    I think the easy way to seperate the two is this:
    A walker has a pilot that is seperate
    A monstrous creature has a self contained guiding conscious.

    • Vanius Arian

      dreadknigth!

    • Red_Five_Standing_By

      That is a fluff difference but what does the game gain by having two separate systems for what are, in fact, basically the same type of units in terms of battlefield role and the purpose for their existence?

    • TexBlade

      I’m fairly certain the pilots of the Tau Riptides and Stormsurges, MC and GC respectively, are able to get in and out of the suits whenever they’d like.

      • I think he’s saying that would be an easy and logical, or at least self-consistent, way to do it, not the way Games Workshop rule writers actually do it.

        So Riptides _should_ be walkers, Chaos daemonic dinobots _should_ be creatures.

        One objection is that a Chaos tank with daemonic possession also has a self-contained guiding consciousness (as does (at least in some of the fluff) a tank with a Machine Spirit, being able to operate without any crew). But walkers are more “creature-like”, so saying that tanks are always vehicles, not creatures, regardless of the guiding consciousness seems reasonable.

        • TexBlade

          The self contained guiding conscious could still get blurry. The Tau suits for example have AI to assist the pilots in controlling the suits. A technological analog to the Eldar pilot and spirit that together control a WraithKnight.

  • Gustav

    It’s blurry but I can live with it–as long as we know big model x blows up on a 6 while big model y gets wounded from poison, it is what it is. Still,if we wanted to give everyone a similar declining profile as the unit is hit/wounded, we could emulate the AOS model for monsters. (Ducks for cover)

    • PrimoFederalist

      Big models X only get wounded by poison on a 6, so there is no downside.

  • TweetleBeetle

    You really only listed one unit (and really, the faction) that is blurry when it comes to being a vehicle or monster – Tau. That’s the only one that never made sense to me, because Riptides and Stormsurges should be walkers.

    • Severius_Tolluck

      well a second one would be admech castellen robots. They are non sentient machines that need someone to tell them what to do with punch cards!

      • Brian Griffith

        Also, Dreadknights.

    • TexBlade

      Grey Knights’ Nemesis DreadKnight that is a MC with a pilot in power armor held in with a 40k baby harness. So your point is just flat wrong.

  • Alex Hood

    yeah MC or vehicle doesn’t mean a huge amount why not just scrap it and have a single process for stuff bigger than an infantryman.

    • Knight_of_Infinite_Resignation

      I would be happy with that. Would make the game easier to teach and the rules easier to remember.

      It is very silly the Tau who are already a powerful faction benefit from the special rules of monstrous creatures when their walkers are clearly machines.

      • TexBlade

        *cough* Nemesis DreadKnight *cough*

  • tau4eva

    I believe GW uses this software help their development team make these decisions https://www.random.org/coins/

  • andrewbeater

    I stopped trying to figure out what GW was thinking a long time ago.

    • euansmith

      Apparently, since all the Synapse Creatures left the company, the remaining staff depend on “Instinctive Behavior”.

  • Ucheny .

    All this things are just a game designer mistakes.
    Walkers are just so much worse. While MC have a load of nice special rules

    • Daniel Sundblad

      Wouldn’t call it “mistakes” as much as it is an artefact of the staggered nature of relases, and the unfortunately overly cautious way they are using (or rather, not using) the opportunities to do “floating” updates, between editions and codexes.

      Ideally, they would just pull the trigger and re-write all walkers into monstrous creatures, put out PDF´s and update the digital codices.

      Fingers crossed at least the daemon engines get that treatment in the next version…

  • Valeli

    I think what GW was going for is that it was super advanced/graceful/whatever…. and i can /sort of/ get that. But on the whole, I agree that tau stuff is terribly misqualified as being a MC.

    I also know that MC stuff is much more reliable though. So I think the real underlying problem is in the base rules here. Something needs to be done to correct this discrepancy, and that’s not likely to happen when a company is much much much more concerned about its models than its rules.

    Unfortunate, but I think that’s the situation we have.

    … at least both dreadnoughts and Tau walkers are pretty cool models, though. So GW didn’t fail at it’s main goal.

    • An_Enemy

      The Storm surge seems graceful to you? All of the Tau suits and weapons platforms should be walkers. MC rules are so far above walker rules its ridiculous.

      • ShasOFish

        Where’s the minimum though? Crisis Suits are controlled in the same manner as anything larger. Make them vehicles (and armor 10, because otherwise they wouldn’t get hurt by bolter fire), and suddenly no one touches them with a 40-foot pole. If you give the vehicle an armor save to compensate, then what’s the point of giving it armor values in the first place? Anything bigger runs into the exact same issues. What armor value do you give the stormsurge that doesn’t immediately cripple it against certain weapons that it should otherwise be resistant to?

    • Red_Five_Standing_By

      The fact that game designers are purposefully making units that are clearly vehicles into Monstrous/Gargantuan Creatures tells you that even they recognize something is wrong.

  • Anggul

    Walkers usually suck and they wanted Dreadknights to be good. It worked, so they continued doing it. Simple as that.

    • zeno666

      Indeed. I don’t get why people are still not getting this.
      New models needs to be better than old models. Thus they get better rules.
      Which means that if you want the advantage you have to buy new stuff.

      • Anggul

        I think it’s more that they stubbornly refuse to significantly change the nature of a unit because then it would be different in that codex compared to others that use the same unit, dreadnoughts for example.

        They could just FAQ the new version into the older codices but no, that would make sense.

        What they should really do is make walkers not suck (and nerf grav), then everything could be what it should be (big battlesuits as walkers etc.) but why solve the core issue when you can just slap another problem on top of it and call it fixed right?

  • Kuzare

    I don’t really see the the confusion here. This has always been a sticking point with me since the moment we started seeing Tau in anything larger than a Crisis Suit, if anything those are the only real ‘blurry’ part of the rules.

    If a Dreadnought is a Vehicle because it has a head and torso in a glass jar inside a walking robot body, then a Riptide and at the very least the new Stealth Giant Suit and that enormous Storm-surge should be vehicles as well. Honestly I think Crisis Suits should be vehicles as well, but then Space Marines got those Centurions which are ‘Crisis Suit-ish’.

    When we saw the Centurions I thought for just a moment that maybe Dreadnoughts would be reclassified as an MC, because the suit and the pilot are one; Similar to a Wraithlord in my mind. Where Sentinels and War-walkers are clearly vehicles like a tank. The difference being the crew can actually leave those vehicles and go on foot in a pinch. Dreads, and Wraithlords are SOL as soon as their body gets f***ed up.

    I guess for me the distinction is how integrated the pilots are. Dreadnoughts, Wraith-types, Tyranid critters are all a single entity. You don’t get to walk away from a bad crash. When the battle is over you’re still beholden to the body. (Wraith guys get to go hang out in the Infinity Matrix, but they don’t have any other body options). Whereas Tau Suit pilots, Tank drivers, Sentinel Pilots all get to go to the Pub after a battle and have a drink. When your vehicles mobility system gets blown off you can still walk home.

    • TexBlade

      *cough* Nemesis DreadKnight *cough*

      • Kuzare

        Good catch, forgot about that one. Probably should be a Vehicle in my mind. Pilot is just that, a passenger.

        Chaos Dinobots and those Emperor-forsaken Helldrakes? They seem more like MCs to me. Same as a Dreadnought/Hellbrute.

        • TexBlade

          I don’t think I’ve ever seen someone point out Helldrakes being the wrong type, flyer instead FMC. It is a very good point you make there.

  • StingrayP226

    The Wraithknight is a little blurry as the body is still controlled by a spirit with the help of its still living twin. So its both a creature and is being piloted. Materials could also be taken into account if the wraithbone acts almost like the spirit’s body/flesh.

    Tau stuff should be a walker. No way the Stormsurge is that graceful or anything but a walker. However like mentioned the rules are in desperate need of fixing so it got shoehorned into the MC category to insure it stayed awesome.

    Powercreep has caused lots of issues with walkers and vehicles in general. To the point the rules need to be rewritten. One shot kills on the majority of vehicles should be incredibly rare. The only ones that should have to worry about it are the lighter ones like Sentinels, Venoms, and other such small easy to pop vehicles. I think the exploding effect roll should just deal 2 damage instead of 1 and IF the model is killed with that attack it explodes… or something like that.

    • Drpx

      One-shot kills were nerfed aleady, and now a plasma pistol is a better tank killer than a krak missile.

  • Agent OfBolas

    TAU had Crisis suits. Than Riptide suit, that was… a bigger one. Now it’s new suit, bigger one, and still have stats that are legacy of Crisis.

    I find this article ‘butthurt’ a bit… 😉
    Please do not search for logic in GW rules.

    Their whole mechanics is out of control. For example – why you test armor after you are wounded instead to test it before hit reach flesh? Enjoy the game or pick something with better rules.

    • Daniel Sundblad

      It´s a “saving roll”, not an “armour test”. It’s a mechanic that goes way back in wargaming, deliberately choosen to give the owning player the final decision on the fate of their model (or at least the impression of it).

      Also, back in the days, it was common, and suggested by the rules systems that you shared the dice, so it cut down on the handing them over one step; Roll to hit, pick out the dice that did, roll those to wound, hand the sucesses over over to your opponent for rolling saves.

  • X078

    The main difference is mostly in their respective movement capabilities. Nid, Tau and Eldar MC/GMC share a similar, almost totally organic (for Nids totally ofc) fluid/nimble movement pattern. While any Imperial counterpart has the agility of trash-compactor in comparison, that is why.

  • pokemastercube .

    missed the dreadknight that the grey knights use, it is mostly machine with a guy strapped to the front

    • PrimoFederalist

      Like a Penitent Engine… which is a walker.

      • pokemastercube .

        it is a odd situation as basicly a dreadknight is one of them, just crewed by a heavily trained psyker, compaired to some random guy whois strapped in and thrown into battle

  • Vanius Arian

    dont forget the dreadknight!

  • OolonColluphid

    Walkers instead of a Vehicle subtype should be a Monstrous Creature subtype. As the latter is much better rules wise. In fact there should be a Mechanical Creature subtype.

  • Andrew Thomas

    Walkers are invulnerable to most small-arms fire; Monstrous Creatures largely are not.
    Walkers, barring a lucky shot, are unphased by most Poisoned or Sniper attacks; Monstrous Creatures are less so.
    Walkers are Fearless; Monstrous creatures sometimes aren’t.

    • Djbz

      Plus walkers are “wounded” (generally) on higher numbers, even by anti-tank weaponry.

      • An_Enemy

        A single Lascannon can wipe a walker with full HPs off the table in one shot. It cannot do the same to a MC.

    • An_Enemy

      Monstrous Creatures are usually Fearless…not sometimes.
      Monstrous Creatures get cover if a toe is in…models that are 12′ tall.
      Walkers, that are usually about 4″, need 25% or no save.
      Gargantuan Monstrous Creatures laugh at poison and sniper. Try taking down a Wraithknight or a Stormsurge with Venoms.

      Walkers have facing values. Usually ten in the rear.. They ARE NOT immune to small arms fire. Monstrous Creature are usually T6 or T7. So unless you dump a lot of shots into it its just as “invulnerable.”

  • happy_inquisitor

    We could try looking at this another way.

    What does it tell us about the difference between Tau and Space Marines that Dreadnaughts are treated like vehicles with a passenger while Riptides are treated like biomechanical constructs.

    I can hardly imagine a Space Marine, no matter how close to death, thinking of himself as being one with the machine. Machines are things that men control and have a healthy disdain for. The machine spirit is a thing to be controlled and kept down lest it get out of control in a grossly heretical manner. A marine will remain a human interred in a machine for thousands of years, any marine that could not maintain that sense of superiority over the machine would not be selected for the honour in the first place.

    The Tau pilot by contrast has no negative feelings about AI or machinery. (S)he is quite content to become one with the machine and feel the metal and composites as an extension of the Tau form, to operate in symbiosis with the AI constructs that help them pilot and control such a complex thing. For this to act like a single almost-living thing the pilot has to be willing to let go of their Tau nature and become part of the composite, something the rules are telling us the Tau can be trained to do.

    • PrimoFederalist

      Don’t try to jump through hoops to justify it. Everyone knows the MC/GC/Vehicle/Walker distinction is wildly stupid and that the Tau suits should be comparable to Walkers.

      Make them a better version because of their superior tech and I’m pretty sure no one would care, but MC/GC are so much more powerful than comparable tanks and walkers that it is ridiculous.

  • Paul Ballard

    I think the more important question is why no-one who writes for BoLS seems to know the difference between Loose and Lose.

    Seriously. Every time. It’s driving me nuts.

    • Red_Five_Standing_By

      Homophones throw people off a lot.

      Then/Than
      To/Too/Two
      Lose/Loose

  • Red_Five_Standing_By

    The trade off in the past was that Vehicles could basically ignore all shots but they could have their weapons plucked off or blow up with a lucky shot. This contrasted with Monstrous Creatures who could not be picked off with a single lucky shot but could be whittled down over time.

    The big benefit for vehicles disappeared with the introduction of Hull Points. Now vehicles are, on the whole, much weaker than Monstrous/Gargantuan creatures because they can be whittled down AND one shotted.

    What GW needs to do is recognize that monstrous creatures and vehicles are fulfilling the same roles on the battlefield. The fact that there is a difference between the two in mechanics is silly. GW should streamline and combine both unit types.

    In fact, I would go so far as to say they should copy the way monsters from AoS change as they taken damage. It makes for dynamic, cinematic battles.

    • PrimoFederalist

      I agree, although I would say that the mechanic doesn’t necessarily need to be the same as long as there is parity.

      Every two or three wounds the MC/GC loses a weapon or becomes immobile, etc. Also, certain weapons should cause multiple wounds. If a melta-gun can one-shot a vehicle, a krak missile or plasma cannon should do D3 wounds or disable a weapon on a MC/GC.

      • Red_Five_Standing_By

        Why bother maintaining arbitrary distinctions? That is needless rules bloat that serves no one.

        • PrimoFederalist

          Because you should be able to explode a vehicle by penetrating the armor and hitting a critical system but not explode a construct made of solid wraithbone.

          Hardly arbitrary. One set of rules for MC/GC, one set for vehicles, but with much greater parity.

          • Red_Five_Standing_By

            Your logic is flawed. You could one shot a creature by blowing away its vital organs with a lascannon.

            How is it fun to watch your big bad vehicle blow up on turn 1 before you even had the chance to use him?

  • Terminus

    Besides their seemingly random method to determine what is a vehicle and what is a monstrous creature (a robot is a monstrous creature, but a dead guy in a robot is a monstrous creature?), they need to address the decided difference in quality between walkers and monstrous creatures. Monstrous creatures tend to be tougher (they will at worst take a “glance” from an attack), have more wounds, and have an armour save.

  • Bradley Macduff

    if it has visible crew like the nemisis or the sentinel or the stormsurge it should be a walker, if its made of metal and has moving parts its a walker. if it does anything else, its a monster

  • Shiwan8

    What ever is strongest type is the one Tau and Eldar get, others get what fits the description.

    • TexBlade

      See Nemesis DreadKnight as to why you are simply wrong.

      • Shiwan8

        Ah, the one exception naturally means that my point was 100% invalid. Yes, you are perfectly right. I also congratulate you for your literacy skills. Excellent job on deliberately both missing the obvious facts like he DK essentially being just a bigger terminator armor with additional features while things like stormsurge have an actual cockpit and pilot(s) that pilot the thing.

        • TexBlade

          Since you clearly need things explained to you like one explains things to a young child let me help you see why you are wrong.

          “What ever is strongest type is the one Tau and Eldar get, others get what fits the description.”

          Others in your sentence would mean every army that isn’t Eldar or Tau. That means that all Space Marine variants would get what fits the description. So let’s describe the NDK, has a pilot, is mechanical, with mechanical limbs, and other mechanical systems. The interesting thing about that description is that it fits three models perfectly. The Tau Riptide, the NDK, and Dreadnaughts. The two models that have pilots that can exit their machine are the riptide and NDK and are MC, but the one classified as a vehicle in the Dreadnaught whose pilot cannot exit. So we have a perfect example of a model classified as the strongest type (according to you) that doesn’t fit the description and that isn’t part of the Tau or the Eldar. Now even a child with the most basic understanding of english can see why your initial statement was simply wrong.

          “Ah, the one exception naturally means that my point was 100% invalid.”

          Yes, yes it does. You made a statement using absolutes which means that even one exception to your statement proves it wrong. I’m sorry if that’s difficult for you to understand or offensive to your ego.

          “Yes, you are perfectly right.”

          Not always, but in this case, yes.

          “missing the obvious facts like he DK essentially being just a bigger terminator armor with additional features while things like stormsurge have an actual cockpit and pilot(s) that pilot the thing.”

          Replace DK with Riptide and terminator armor with crisis battlesuit and you’ve got the same thing. One could even replace DK with Stormsurge and terminator armor with riptide and it still would be correct. The additional features being more guns and abilities. I understand that english is hard for you, even though it isn’t your second language, but the NDK has a cockpit for the pilot too. Granted the Imperium was dumb as a bag of rocks when they designed the cockpit and didn’t provide anything beyond the absolute minimum in protection for the pilot, but that’s a different debate.

          I’m sure your fragile ego will demand that you reply, and your narcissistic defect will force you to contort logic into such a twisted mess that even a Top Gun pilot would be jealous. But just do everyone a favor and accept that you’ve been bested.

  • BlickWinkel

    Maulerfiends and Stormsurges are the worst offenders. Like.. how?
    It really is completely arbitrary at this point. I like the concept of walkers, but let’s be honest – they were useless for years and instead of getting fixed they were being given better alternatives. They should be just done with. Sure they and the game will lose some flavour, but I hate something as legendary as dreadnoughts relegated to autocannon duty because they suck at everything else.

  • LordKrungharr

    Tau suits that don’t have the pilots limbs inside the suits limbs like regular armor should be walkers. But the rules are better for creatures and thus sell new models better. Walkers should be getting armor saves, they’re made of armor!

  • Benderisgreat

    It’s entirely arbitrary and GW has their heads up their asses anyway.

    Piloted: Walker
    Robot/Cyborg/Monster: Monstrous creature

    Is how it should be.

  • KingThrogg

    Its all based on sales, thats why the Mechanicum Robots are Monstrous Creatures. If they where easy kill vehicles, they would not sell. Now apply that logic to the Stormsurge and any other new expensive kit they are selling. Its no more complicated than that.

  • Joseph Boyd

    I believe they do need to make Dreads Monstrous creatures. Right now there not worth points and can be easily killed by a squad with S4 weapons. No Saves unless its a special Dread. They Suck!