Is Games Workshop Finally Listening?



Is GW Listening? Six Months after the petition by Evan Valdyke, has Games Workshop finally noticed our suggestions?


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Is GW Listening? Six Months after the petition by Evan Valdyke, Games Workshop looks to have finally noticed our suggestions!

Is Games Workshop Listening? Long War Episode 44



  • Commissar Molotov

    Either the petition…or their dwindling profits! Money talks!

    • KingThrogg

      We all know its the money right?

      • Cergorach

        It’s the change in leadership.

        The are more roads to Rome, current leadership is choosing a road that is (currently) more enjoyable for the fans then the previous road.

        • KingThrogg

          You mean the change in leadership brought on by falling profits?

      • nurglitch

        No, it’s clearly the powerful engine for change that is the online petition.

        • Chris. K Cook

          Yeah totes!

        • KingThrogg

          You forgot #sarcasm

  • Marco van der Zon

    the tldr version??

    • surfpenguin

      Of the petition? Long story short:
      1. Rewrite the rules of your games to suck up to tournament players.
      2. Undercut your own sales by bending over backwards to cater to so-called ‘independent’ stores.
      3. Violate the first law of retail by letting the customer dictate the price of your products.
      4. Your website sucks. Fix it.
      5. ‘Increase player feedback.’ It doesn’t matter that every time you’ve tried this in the past it’s descended into endless diatribes about how much you suck, this time will be different, really.

      • SundaySilence

        You are bang on the money with that summary.

        • Davor Mackovic

          Except for the “suck up to tournament players”

          No forget the tournament players, just write a Clear, Concise, Fun rule set with no rule debates. Once this is done, then the tourney scene can play as well. No need to make 40K a sports game for non athletes who like to behave like sport jocks.

          • “a sports game for non athletes who like to behave like sport jocks.”

            Can I +1 this part of the comment please? ๐Ÿ™‚

          • Chris. K Cook

            “a sports game for non athletes who like to behave like sport jocks.”

            Oh god can those guys go away please. I blame Dawn of War for that its the over competitive Computer Game dudes bringing the aggressive douchery to both the table and the online communities that’s ruining the game.

          • Ted

            Nah this was happening waaaay before Dawn of War.

          • Chris. K Cook

            I’ve only started encountering them recently, did they start showing up earlier in your neck of the woods?

          • Ted

            Yeah the central florida meta has been strong for a long time but there was also an undertone of “bro-gamers” who somehow thought they were better than the “other nerds” because they played 40k to win.

          • Severius_Tolluck

            I’ve always had to deal with WAAC players long before the games. Stupid Iron Warriors and Eldar Witch councils being the original D stars back in the day.

      • So niether of you actually bothered to read the petition just BoLS “sky is falling comments”

        1- called for accommodation of both groups, not one over the other.
        2- By supporting independent retailers they move their product, as that is where most of us game and purchase. There are places without GW stores and no one buys from them when they can go to discounters online. Many FLGS have cut down stock on GW to push things like xwing instead
        3- multiple price points are required. There was no easy way in for a while.
        4- yeah it does. Disagree?
        5- well they are askings for FAQS now. And somehow Privateer Press and FFG manage to do this.

        • Moik

          I thought that was implied, but thanks for translating it to English for those of us who don’t speak Paranoid fanboy.

        • I did read the petition at the time, and although it did pay lip service to your points, it was self-righteous and played to the baying crowd. I hear they edited out the “amirite?” at the end of every demand to tone it down.

          The petition did nothing. The new CEO did everything. Deal with it.

  • Thomas Gardiner

    Unless I’m mistaken, that’s my local GW in Glasgow!

    • Douglas Lang

      I thought so too.

    • plasmaspam

      Yeah that’s what I thought, recognise that Street front anywhere! It’s the reflection of that horrible wooden scaffold across the street that’s been up seemingly forever, I’m sure if it.

      • Thomas Gardiner

        Pity they never caught the reflection of all the goffs leaving central station to go to the Cathouse =P

        • plasmaspam

          Too early in the day for that, it’s the neds buying a new shell suit from that place next to Fopp you need to worry about!

  • Anti-Gravity

    Hey look! Another video article!

  • Erik Setzer

    Hmm, let’s see… Prices are still ridiculous. White Dwarf is still an overpriced sales flyer. Their first “Organized Play” event is trying to charge excessive amounts for a bundle of very basic suggestions and certificates. They still have an obsessive bunker mentality even toward their own employees.

    There’s a few steps in the right direction, but the big issues remain.

    Doing lip service for your “veteran” customers doesn’t change the problem that the business model is not friendly to bringing new people on board.

    Once they fix the big stuff, and stop half-arsing some of the stuff they’ve done so far, we can maybe believe they’re listening.

    Though more likely they’re listening to the declining sales and starting to enter panic mode knowing that the only way to keep profits going will be to start shutting down a bunch of stores, laying off staff, and cutting product quality more often (like they did with the Supremacy Tactical Objective cards).

    • and the rules are still bad….which really makes everything else moot. As the rules have gotten worse, profits shrink.

      GW still doesn’t realize that people think the amazing models are cute, but without solid rules, the models won’t carry sales.

      If they’re listening, we’re getting Sigmar 2.o and 40k 8th this summer.

      So, no, GW aren’t listening.

      • wibbling

        You’ve misunderstood. Games Workshop’s business model is to sell models. The rules exist to sell models. The fluff exists to sell models.

        Why should they listen to you (collective gamers)? You don’t understand their business model!

        • Captain Raptor

          Because we’re the one’s they need to buy their overpriced plastic. It doesn’t matter what the business model is, if you don’t please your customers you wont make money.

          Right now 40k is an utter mess, AoS is non-existent outside of the UK and small pockets, and 30k is priced beyond the pale.

          GW is the guy who slams on the breaks after running over a pedestrian twenty miles back. The changes they are making now should have been made 10 years ago and they still don’t offer comparable support to companies a fraction of their size.

          • Aezeal

            And you’ve got issues too.

          • DeadlyYellow

            Remember: Rountree claimed that gamers only consisted of 20% of their demographic.

        • bginer

          You are correct. Nobody outside of GW understands their business model.

          That’s why they’ve been losing sales for the last few years even with massively increased releases.

          Possibly there needs to be a change?

      • Chris. K Cook

        Why do we need 40K 8th? 7th is fine.

        And we don’t need a 2nd ed of AoS it needs to die in a fire and they need to give us WFB 9th ed.

    • wibbling

      The start collecting boxes? New board games and boxed sets? The simpler rules and paint/model/brush bundles?

      • bginer

        I think those are covered in his post under “few steps in the right direction”.

        That’s how I take it anyway.

      • Erik Setzer

        As bginer noted, I said they took some steps in the right directions. Though let’s address those.

        The Start Collecting! boxes were nice, though (from what I’ve been told) were a bit of a panic move, and don’t help the issue of the games being obnoxiously expensive once you get past that first purchase.

        The new board game I’ll give credit for is Lost Patrol. While I’ve grabbed BaC and will get DW:OK when I’m finally not having to deal with PC emergencies and the like, they’re not friendly to the board game market. They’re $150 and $165. I don’t judge them on “what would the board game pieces cost if sold on GW’s over the top price scale for miniatures game pieces?” I judge the price as a board game. (And then there’s Execution Force, $125 for a board game that’s super fast to play and way too repetitive.) Lost Patrol is only $60, much better. Doesn’t matter there’s less figures in it. Board games aren’t meant to build armies for you for some other game, they’re meant to be their own games, and people don’t expect them to be excessively expensive. Even the tops are around $100, but you can get them at a nice discount much more easily than any GW products. This is an important point because those board games are entry points to the hobby: Grab someone’s attention with a fun game that’s not too expensive, and then they see there’s a whole setting beyond that, with more games to play, and they go from there.

        Other boxed sets, not sure what you’re referring to… There’s a small number but they’re not exactly friendly on the wallet (though do have a small discount in some cases, so I guess that’s something).

        Simpler rules aren’t something I’d call a step in the right direction. AoS can be enjoyable, sure, but there’s a lot of problems with vague areas, and a lot of people want more to a miniatures game, especially when they’re spending $800-$1000 on an army. Simple is nice, but reducing it to an extremely light framework can actually make it harder to get into, as many communities are coming up with their own houserules to cover things that aren’t in the rules, and a new player has to not only learn the rules but figure out what the local houserules are (and then do that for each group of people they play with, and it might even vary from store to store in one town). Meanwhile, 40K’s gone much the opposite direction, which admittedly is an issue, but can be corrected without drastic action.

        The paint/model/brush bundles aren’t new. They’ve had sets like that for a long time. The new sets are just nicer looking. Presentation might help draw people in, I suppose. They are a solid price point as an entry level product, so that’s a good plus for them.

        While we’re at it, let’s mention Battle for Vedros. Price points (rumored anyway) seem to be just a small amount higher than they should be for the intent, but not offensively so, and shouldn’t be enough to push people off. The intent there is solid. If they can get those into, say, book stores alongside X-Wing and similar games, they’ll help attract people to the hobby.

        They’re doing better to attract new players, but the moment said customers see the price tag on the “real” hobby, most of them balk and turn away. That’s where the serious issue still lies, and they’re continuing to make it worse. Much of my frustration centers on GW doing contradictory things that are stunting their potential growth (which would be growth for the hobby). They want to make the hobby exclusive, but they want customers, so they have to make it inclusive… so now the opening of the hobby is inclusive but the majority of it is still exclusive. They want sales but then try to make it super-niche, which doesn’t work so well when competition abounds. They’ve got the doorway right, now they need to fix the foundation and the rest of the building (using a bit of a rough metaphor here).

        Sorry, I just can’t give only praise alone where there’s criticism still to be made. If you can, cool, that’s you. I can’t do it. It’s not just GW, either.

        • Chris. K Cook

          You can always find a cloud on any silver lining can’t you!

          • Erik Setzer

            I see the reality in things rather than blindly looking only at one side of an issue. I’ve noted positives here, but I will note the negatives as well, because otherwise the conversation is dishonest. An honest conversation must include the negatives with the positives (except for the rare cases where no negatives exist).

      • Knight_of_Infinite_Resignation

        I want consistent rules not simpler ones. There is so much repetition but with exceptions to the half duplicated rules for troop types, vehicles and monstrous creatures etc at the moment. Adds nothing to the game but makes it harder to learn to play.

      • Dan Wilson

        As I understand it there is more of this coming. As in more bundles, start collecting and lower entry price points.

      • Chris. K Cook

        Shush stop being positive you are ruining the vibe of this site!

    • Aezeal

      You’ve got issues.

    • Chris. K Cook

      Man you were starting to make reasonable posts, has the brain slug regained control?

      • Erik Setzer

        I’m still the one making reasonable posts. You troll people who aren’t 100% positive cult-like worshippers. THAT is unreasonable. This stupid photo you spam the website with is annoying, adds nothing to the conversation, serves to remind everyone you’re not interested in reasonable conversation, and makes it harder to scroll through the comments for people who *do* want reasoned conversation.

        At this point, you’re as big a “Troggoth” as TweedleDee.

        • Chris. K Cook

          You want reasoned conversation? I thought you just wanted to scream about how evil GW can’t ever do anything right and tell everyone else how much badwrongfun they are having!

          • Erik Setzer

            Yep, you’re trolling.

            I’m having honest discussion. You want only praise. That’s dishonest.

            And this might be a hard concept for your little mind to handle, but I don’t just apply this thinking to GW. Go to the forums and look up the Batman v Superman discussion. I very much enjoyed the movie and would gladly see it again, but I was still able to note negatives with the movie, because people wanted an honest view of the movie. You can’t just list the positives and ignore the negatives, not with any reasonable discussion.

            You want to scream how awesomegreatperfect GW is… which is amusing as they’re even having to admit that what they’re doing is wrong. You’re detached from reality and choose to mock and insult those of us in the real world. That is clear trolling.

          • Chris. K Cook

            No you are here to spew bile and rage at anyone with anything positive to say. You find a cloud on every silver lining.

            I’m not 100% happy with everything GW does but I give them credit where credit is due which enrages you and the rest of the negativity squad who just want to piss in everyone else’s Wheaties and yell that the sky is falling.

            You aren’t in the real would you are in a sinister fantasy would where even your hobbies are out to get you.

            Maybe if you veiws weren’t simultaneously so negative and incorrect maybe folks like be would keep correcting you sorry ‘shilling/trolling’??

            But you just pull out the old ‘shill/troll’ card because you don’t have anything else to support your unrelenting hate!

  • Chris Cook

    If GW are listening to their customers , some of which have played for nearly 20 years, then they would stop delaying and give us a 7th CSM Codex.

    • wibbling

      Which you’ll get, but when they’re ready – same with every other codex.

      • Julio Lenin Roman Martinez

        Yeah, I suppose we can just use Khorne Daemonkin for another half year

      • Chris Cook

        That’s true but what army do you play?

        • Chris. K Cook

          The sooner you get a new one the sooner you can start kvetching about how bad it is right?

          • Chris Cook

            Not true let’s give GW a chance who knows it could be great. We won’t know though until we see it though will we. Whenever that is.

          • Chris. K Cook

            Well then dude with an awesome name you are not part of about 90% of CSM players in the Internet.

          • Chris. K Cook

            No, “Gw hates chaos and intentionally makes bad CSM codexes.” a handful of screaming manchildren can’t be wrong.

            We’ll of course ignore the fact that 2nd ed and 3.5 ed Chaos and CSM codexes are among the 5 best codexes ever!

          • Chris. K Cook

            The Nid Book with the Biomorphs, and the IG and SM dexes with Doctrines were the other 3.

      • Chris. K Cook

        No, wants now! Stamps foot!

    • Djbz

      You forgot the words “not terrible”
      Because we don’t want another Chaos Space Marine codex that has everything worse than and/or more exensive (in points) than the loyalist equivalent. (Like the last 2 have been)

      • nurglitch

        Which is the problem. You know what gets refreshed every edition, newer and better? Space Marines? You know what gets updated models? Space Marines? You know why this happens? BECAUSE WE BUY THEM. You want new Chaos Space Marines? Buy as much CSM stuff as possible. Sink your budget into them, and buy that CSM stuff. Because GW has learned from wasting their time with WHFB, and from its success with Space Marines, that it supports the stuff that sells. GW doesn’t let Space Marines suck just because they’re the best-selling product.

        Maybe you don’t want the current Chaos Space Marine stuff. That’s okay. Think of it as an investment in a future army. Because when we’ve bought enough, someone in the marketing department at GW, under which the Design Studio now reports, is going to notice and write a memo.

    • nurglitch

      I’m a customer. I like the current codex. Kind of nice to see they’re catering to me, actually.

    • Marky

      I really don’t think a new CSM codex will get close to fixing GWs currentl “issues”. Cycling the release of Bloodbowl, Necromunda, epic, mordheim and BFG is the only thing they are doing that will bring in $, add new players and keep the long term buyers and collectors happy.

  • V10_Rob

    The optimist says they’re finally listening to their customers.

    The pessimist says they’re panicking, throwing everything at the wall and praying something sticks.

    • bginer


      The way you phrased it made me laugh, but you are not wrong.

    • Shawn

      Well said.

    • I think they’re finally listening to their staff (the internal development team, not the store managers).

      If they were panicking, they’d be buying up competitors. That’s the normal MO for public companies.

  • Christie Bryden

    are they finaly bringing out chaos legions, cause if not then they arent listening.

    • Chris. K Cook

      Have you heard about this Horus Heresy game?

      Legions don’t exist in 40K. You’d know that if you ever read more than 1 bit of fluff.

  • Painjunky

    Have they hired people that can write clear balanced rules and released codexes that bring every faction up to 7th ed power levels???

    No, then they still aren’t listening.

    • wibbling

      I apologise but you’ve completely misunderstood their business model. They don’t care about the rules. They sell models. That’s their business. Going on about wanting ‘balanced’ rules (which has never been explained, as Age of Sigmar rules are perfectly ‘clear’ yet people here hate them) just isn’t relevant.

      • eldarconvert .

        you need motive to buy the models in the first place, 80% of the time that will be based on it rules and 20% based on looks/hobby aspect.

        • SYSTem050

          Well personally I buy the models I like the look or fluff off. Half of them sit on a shelf looking pretty. Well kind of with my painting skill I can only say they sit on a shelf

        • Nobody walks past a Warhammer store and goes in because the nerds inside are playing balanced rules. They go in because of all the cool painted models that look spectacular when placed on a 6×4 board with great scenery.

          The models are the initial draw for non-gamers.

          Expand that to images on the internet. What’s more interesting, a Chaos Titan picture or a wall of text describing Exploding Dice (or whatever good mechanic GW doesn’t use).

          Once you’re in, you choose your path (gamer or modeller), but the INITIAL draw is the models.

          And this is why I can believe that the majority of GW’s customers don’t actually play the game. And that they don’t have the personality type to rant about it endlessly on gaming forums.

          • bginer

            Agree that the models and fluff, erm, excuse me ‘backstory’ are the the main draw initially. It certainly was for me.

            That only goes so far though, and in my experience anybody who sticks with GW for long its because of the gaming aspect. I would say more for the social aspect than any real competitive side for most.

            The reason that I say the above is that I frequent two stores in the area where I live, and drop into any stores I come across when I travel for work and I have met, literally, nobody who is just a collector. This is just my experience, and I’m sure that they are out there without a doubt. My question though is their numbers.

            There have been figures bandied about in this thread from 40 to 80% of GW customers don’t play the game. Again, from my personal experience, I find that hard to believe. What your proposing is that there’s a hobby ‘dark collector’ making up the greater mass of GW’s customer base. Not saying that it can’t be so, but you’re not going to convince me without some kind of proof I’m afraid.

            I’m not trying to be objectionable, but that’s a big ask man. Hell, with the amount of communication that GW has had with its customers up until very recently, I don’t see how THEY would know what the split is.

          • Okay, let’s look at your anecdotal evidence – how many FLGS are there in the world, compared to the total population of the planet? The coverage is in the region of 0.0001%. I made that statistic up, but it’s safe to say that the majority of people in the world are not within comfortable distance of an FLGS. Then, look at collectors and what they do – why would they want to go to an FLGS? Or if they do, would they hang around enough to socialize if they’re not playing games?

            Given that, the chances you would meet a pure collector in an FLGS would be quite low. You don’t need proof – it’s just common sense.

          • bginer

            OK, that’s a good point, up to a point.

            Generally word gets around about this type of person I would think as they’d like to show off their collection. Unless of course they’re complete loners in which case…

            You know what, I think we’re just going to have to agree to disagree on this. Talking about this class of ‘collectors’, I feel like I’m discussing a Unicorn or something! ๐Ÿ™‚

          • Severius_Tolluck

            I love that you used the dark matter analogy! It actually fits pretty well here.

      • chuck_lapine

        The game itself is what drives model sales. If teh game sucks people will find other games that dont.. GW isnt the only game in town anymore.

      • bginer

        I can’t believe you’re being this obtuse. Please refer to my reply to your comment below this.

      • Which is why xwing isn’t #1 right now… oh wait

        • If X Wing wasn’t based on Star Wars, your point would have more merit.

          • Yes and no. Concurrent with the new movie, that really helped. BUT It was growing rapidly before the movie. Star Wars, contrary to popular opinion, does not equal instant success for a game. Star Wars miniatures pretty much failed to take off and died in 6 years. Wizard of the Coast couldn’t make a successful card game last the length of time between episodes 2 and 3, even though decipher had made one last for 6 years and only lost the license because the game wasn’t “Kid Friendly” (and still has an active community 15 years later).

          • It’s still Star Wars, and it was also a perfect pairing of pre-painted miniatures with a rules concept that people could instantly grasp. Spaceships and movement templates, beats card games and board games hands down.

            It’s no surprise it’s doing well, but don’t kid yourself that if it wasn’t Star Wars it would still be #1, or even close.

          • No, but for just entering the market, it is the combination of everything that led it to rapidly rise. If 40k was a better game rules wise, would it have been over taken?

          • Severius_Tolluck

            Yeah considering wings of glory both world war one and two existed with the same engine prior, heck even aeronautica kinda! None of those games worked out so hot or did so well. Some may have been marketing. But the Xwing is what really pushes it. The Star trek varient is equally recognizeable and in some cases has more tourney systems in place. Attack wing for DnD again, same system, appeals to some but does the least in sales. How about hte newest of the same engine, Tails and Feathers, the Mice and Mystics spin off? (which is 100 dollars for it’s core set)

      • Seismic Ghost

        I don’t know that anyone has ‘misunderstood their business model.’

        The model is ‘we sell models to collecters for a high price and we don’t care about the rules.’

        The problem is that no one likes their business model because it’s ruined what we all understood to be a game.

    • Shawn

      Maybe not listening completely, but I believe they’re at least taking steps in the right direction. Forgive them, if they take baby steps, they’re afraid the more vehement and vitriol-filled gamers will bite their nose off.

      • Discoqing

        Only ‘virtually bite their nose off’, though.
        They should merely look to competitors & do better.
        But their profits will suffer (more than they are currently);
        So doubt they’ll go too deep in to customer friendly territory

        • Shawn

          You make a good point. Profits will be their underlying impetus for change, but I keep my fingers crossed that the more friendly gamer oriented folks at GW gain some traction there.

        • How do we know that financially they aren’t doing better than their competitors? FFG have to pay the Star Wars licence, AND they pay money to GW to licence some of their other games.

          We know that GW makes a profit, a big one, regardless of the fact that it is declining. We don’t know how profitable other private companies are, or whether their profits may be going down at the same rate or even faster.

          We just don’t have enough real information from the rest of the industry to be sure. And the opinions of “anonymous sources in the industry” doesn’t count.

          • Discoqing

            Fortunately we don’t need to know about other companies – GW being floated on the stock market means we only need to compare it to previous performance.
            Which we all know is in a downward spiral.
            And big changes like AoS twinned with profit decline is bad news, & something has to give.
            Hence why we’re finally getting customer interaction.
            Funny huh?

          • We don’t need to know about other companies if we just want to hate on GW, that’s true.

            But for those of us who seek meaningful analysis, it would be nice to compare other more “user-friendly” companies results.

            I’d like to know things like:

            Why did Asmodee buy FFG if FFG are doing so well?

            Would Mantic be a viable business without Kickstarter?

            How many people who got into gaming via X-Wing went on to play any other miniatures game?

            What percentage of Millennium Falcon sales are down to X-Wing players compared to those who just bought the model because it’s awesome (I have 2, one for playing, one for my man-cave shelf).

            and finally, Dust – WTF?

            These are all interesting questions, that speak to the state and future of the industry, which is important for all of us who care about it.

            And I see you trying to deflect my point about how important financials are by making a thinly-veiled ad hominem that I “think like GW”. Classy. ๐Ÿ™‚

          • Discoqing

            “Classy”, thanks.

    • Chris. K Cook

      Why don’t you apply or Start You own Basement Trolls Studio Games company?

  • wibbling

    Games Workshop do not care less what someone wanted – unless they’re a shareholder.

    They want to sell models. Age of Sigmar sells models. Answering FAQs promotes the game and sells models. The board games sell models. They’re a gateway drug into the hobby which sells models.

    I don’t mean to be cantankerous, but the daft, waffly ‘I want you to make me better rules’ petulance made no difference and was irrelevant. The change of direction is solely to address 1 issue alone: the sale of models.

    • bginer

      I really don’t understand this post of yours, I really don’t.

      To be clear, the reason I buy models for the most part is that they are markers for the game I want to play. 40K, AoS, whatever could be played with pieces of paper for markers if necessary.

      Do you think the majority of GW’s sales is to people who just want to collect the models and not play the game?!

      • Dan Wilson

        Actually collectors who just want to buy and paint something cool and put it in a cabinet with no intention of ever playing a game make up a sizeable portion of the customer base. Depending on which stores you go to it varies from 25% to as much as 60%.

        • benn grimm

          They certainly do now that they’ve alienated so many gamers.

        • bginer

          All I can say to that is that I personally don’t know anybody who does that.

          Interesting point though, but on the flip side, how many models do collectors actually buy? Seems to me that somebody collecting an army to play, would buy many more models than a collector would.

          • Tyris

            The key words there are “an army.” One army. A collector might only have one boxful of each Bretonnian unit, because that’s all you need to make a display, but what they haven’t spent on extra horses has gone on units from sixteen different armies.

            Of course, that’s not counting those few, unrestrained, utterly swanee-whistle Gamellectors who literally have sixteen full-on armies and still eagerly watch the New Releases to see what’s next. But nobody knows any of those… *cough, cough*

          • bginer

            Of course not… ๐Ÿ˜‰


          • Dan Wilson

            You do get them though and they can spend massively. At my local there’s one chap in the process of recreating an entire imperial guard division, with something like 150 tanks alone not taking into account infantry. Then there’s another chap essentially working toward an entire space marine chapter with full compliment of companies etc etc.

          • bginer

            OK so that’s two we know between the two of us… ๐Ÿ™‚

            Not trying to be a d**k, and I’d really like to see an IG Div. That would be a cool sight, but seriously how many people like those two there are in GW’s customer base. I have never met one. Not in the group I have at home, not in my travels all over the US, and more importantly not through the many people I’ve met through the hobby even by word of mouth.

            That of course doesn’t mean that they don’t exist. I’m sure there’s quite a lot of them and they’re all having a blast painting up their models. To say that it’s between 25-60% however… And another poster here suggested 80% of all GW’s customers are collectors. I just have a hard time comprehending that when, as I’ve said I’ve not met, nor yet heard of one in 5 years.

            As I state in a reply to another poster here, collectors are being put forward as the ‘dark matter’ of the GW customer base, and I’m afraid I’d need some officail breakdown numerically before I could take that in.

            I understand that, as I don’t believe that GW could supply those numbers; we’ll have to continue to speculate.

          • It was GW who gave the 80% number. What more do you want, names and addresses?

            All your comments are showing is that you are not as well-travelled as you think you are. ๐Ÿ™‚

            I collected for several years before I started playing, and that was only because I found a good group to play with. Otherwise I’d still be an 80%-er. And I was perfectly happy just being a collector, so I totally believe there is a silent majority who don’t feel the need to talk about the hobby in public and thus wouldn’t be counted in your unofficial census.

      • Axis Mundi

        We can all choose to ignore GW’s statement to a meeting of shareholders that 80% of their customers don’t play the games – but that statement was reported by an impartial (ie non game playing) investor, so I’m going to believe that it was said. It might be an exaggeration, but I suspect a lot of people do just collect the models as a hobby – I know I did for years, and only played once or twice a year when I met up with friends. I now play a lot more (I actually like AoS), but my main motivation is that I enjoy painting and converting.

        • bginer

          Wow, 80% is a huge number. You’re right, I find that very hard to believe.

          When you just collected models, how did you collect? Individual pieces, or whole army/armies? I’m curious as to how much an average collector (if there is such a thing) would spend in comparison to somebody who is a player buying to take an army to a tournament season.

          • Axis Mundi

            That’s a good question – I started off by painting a unit of Empire Handgunners, rather than an individual model, and that seemed to set my approach. So I collected small armies, and added to them when something interesting came out. What I wasn’t interesting in was painting 50+ units of the same models – so when I started playing (end of 7th) I picked one army and built it up so I had enough – but I continued to collect small forces that I never played with. Until now that is – AoS suits my collecting habit much better!

            As for spending – well, too much like all of us! – but I think definitely less than a dedicated tournament player. When I hear or read about people blowing ยฃ300 – ยฃ500 + in one go to really build up an army, that’s not something I’ve ever done. But you do hear about painting service companies getting insanely large collections done at once by guys that don’t play the game, so if you are rich enough… maybe? I probably buy one thing a month, and try to keep my number of unbuilt boxes to a minimum.

            I’m spending about double what i did before AoS at the moment – so it’s worked on me, and I think for other collectors it might also be creating more interest. The individual character models are quite expensive, but really nice to paint and the round bases make them look nicer in a cabinet – and the bigger ones are fantastic projects. Also the new Alliance books do make great catalogues!

          • bginer

            Wow, that’s completely different to me and the guys I game with.

            Most guys start with a list, and borrow/proxy the models they don’t have until they have hammered out what they’re looking for, and then purchase what they need. Everybody has been in the hobby for a long time, and so have a collection of armies rather than models. Basically most start a new army/build out an old army to a new book about every other year. Some every year. Some stick with one army, but keep fine tuning it by adding units to play test with continuously.

            The only time that really differs is when an army comes out that really catches the imagination (which DA did when the book before last came out. 4 guys started armies from scratch to go to Adepticon), and a completely new army like the Mechanicum came out. One guy in the group basically bought two of everything that was released for those armies. He just totally fell in love with the whole esthetic. Then The War Convocation formation was released, and he was in heaven ๐Ÿ™‚

            I had not considered the collection point of view, especially on the individual character models which I personally find to be way over costed. The larger kits I can see being attractive, but I don’t play AoS at all and the player base around here is very small so I really don’t know much about them.

            Very interesting to get a different perspective on things. Thanks!

          • Severius_Tolluck

            I do much the same for just about 20 years my self. The point is many that got into the hobby, and started gaming, was because they had already amassed a collection. Long before there were tables in local stores or heck, there were no GW stores of any kind. You just collected for the sake of having it and hoped one day you could convince or find a group of people to play with!

          • I spent a fortune on collecting, and I still have whole armies I collected that I’ve never got around to playing with. I have a whole Space Marine company, just for the sake of collecting it, not because I would ever field the whole thing.

          • bginer

            Holy crap! That is impressive mate!

        • Severius_Tolluck

          I play once a year if that, (over better part of twenty years!) as a painter I tend to buy things I think are cool and yes, I put them in a display case. However I do follow and sometimes peak my opinion on the hobby.

      • Seismic Ghost

        I stopped giving GW money when they went full psycho on the indie retailers. I filled out my army with good looking proxies from other companies or buying used models.

        That was of course until the rules got so bad that I even stopped doing that. And that was years ago.

        Now I’m actually not sure that a new edition could even get me to play again.

        • bginer

          I understand. One of the local stores near me lost basically their whole 40K player base because of the price increases and 7th Edition.

          I’ve also found myself going to other vendors as well. Just got the Daemon dogs from Puppets War to use as flesh hounds and they are fantastic! And a lot cheaper than GW’s offering which looks like crap in comparison IMO.

      • Well his use of “do not care less” doesn’t help with reading comprehension. ๐Ÿ™‚

        But I for one think that GW sells more to collectors than gamers, partly because a) they said so, and b) there’s a large amount of lonely nerds out there who don’t have any friends to play with, and GW products are perfect for them.

        • bginer

          Wait. If you believe everything that a large corporation has to say to you about their sales (and I see no linkage), then HAVE I GOT A DEAL FOR YOU! ๐Ÿ™‚

          • Firstly, Google it, it’s on this site. Demanding links for every fact is a very poor trolling tactic.

            Secondly, nerd is not considered an insult any more. Geez, you really don’t get out much do you? ๐Ÿ™‚

          • bginer


            Well you’re the one making the argument, so I’d expect you to be able to support it if possible. What should I be googling?

    • Shawn

      Well all model companies want to sell models. It’s the current business model, and the fair amount of competition, that’s hurting them. Other companies know a thing or two about how to run a company better.

    • benn grimm

      They don’t care what you think, even if you are a shareholder; check out the article that stockmarket investment guy wrote about the stockholder meeting he attended.

      They’d like AoS to sell models; unfortunately for the fantasy line from what Ive seen/heard it barely sells more than WFB did at its lowest ebb.

      Totally agree with you on your final point though; the arrogance and naivete of the ‘community’ is quite staggering sometimes. That said; don’t ask, don’t get…

    • Lestat

      Are you sure Age of Sigmar sells models? I didn’t see any game in my entire city, not even my group of players.

  • doom and gloom doom and gloom doom and glooooooooooom!!

  • Dave Scammell

    My last 15 seconds:
    “This could be an interesting read”
    “Oh FFS”

  • JP

    I’ll believe they’re listening when Sisters make a comeback.

  • Shawn

    After decades of drinking too much tea, I think GW finally woke up and smelled the coffee.

  • Josiah

    Gorechosen Champs $150? lol gawd please,,,,

  • Andersp90 .

    When a 9th edition rulebook, without random charge range hits my painting table, I will start to believe. – and only then..

    • Marky

      I don’t care if charge is random or not, but I would start buying warhammer stuff again if there was a new ed of propper WFB. The new game is lots of what stopped me enjoying 40k only not as good as 40k. Nothing stopping GW keeping AOS for those who like it.

  • Byungwook Kim

    They did not listen they did not know how. Perhaps they will listen now.

    And if you are listening, the new pointless system for AOS is only making me reluctant to buy more knowing that whatever I bring decades old players can still outnumber my infantry with his MONSTERS. Insta-zapping my celestial army.

    Not only older armies need points, ALL WARGAMES NEED POINTS!!!!!

    • Axis Mundi

      fixed that for you! ๐Ÿ˜‰

      • Byungwook Kim

        Thanks.. I needed that

    • Marky

      I could literally fill my entire side of the table if I wanted to play AOS

    • Severius_Tolluck

      I wouldn’t say all wargames. That is a very broad statement, in fact for the history of wargames, very few actually use any sort of points or balancing! Just any vet who’s played historicals, which dubbed the phrase miniature wargaming!

      That being said, pick up and go games work somewhat well with points so long as you make the points matter. You can also have other methods of unit selection and balance without using points at all! Problem is the game if we apply numbers or not is not balanced.

  • Spacefrisian

    I only believe they are listening when i see Dark Eldar, Sisters of Battle and Chaos get a new Dex, Orks and Tyranids get a massivly updated dex.

    Or in other words, all the codexes they neglected to do properly being made properly.

  • Talos2

    Well going by the hilarious ยฃ54 price tag for 3 khorne champs for AoS, the answer is still a very clear booming no. No they aren’t

  • Hedwerx

    Is this the petition that got 17,243 signatures? I doubt that would have made much difference. I think BoLS is seeing a correlation that doesn’t exist.

    Especially as private companies are under no obligation to listen to petitions.

  • mugginns


  • nurglitch

    I miss written battle reports.

    • Marky

      Me too, I can’t watch a video while I’m taking a dump in work.