40K Editorial: Do We Need A New Chaos Marine Codex?

short-on-time

 It’s 2016, and the chance of getting a “new” codex these days is slim to none.  More to the point, why do you even need one?

What CSM Players Want

Face it Chaos Space Marine (CSM) fans, you aren’t going to get what you want.  Nobody has received the blessing of a “new” codex for a while now.  It’s just not what GDub does anymore in 40K.  Most recently Tau;  a few new units and some new formations.  Otherwise, the same tome they had before.  Of course they have received some beasty supplements with new rules, etc.  This is your fate as well heretic scum.  Let’s think about the future of your corner of the Grimdark (hint: it’s already here!).

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Can we agree no new dex?  A rhetorical question to be sure, since we already know the answer.  Of course not.  Why would GW change course for you?  Already some supplements have hit the streets.  Black Legion, Crimson Scum (just kidding).  It’s the Imperial in me.  I would expect, if we get one at all, the next CSM dex will be a retread with a few new units, formations…just like the Tau book.  But now, think about how much those minimal changes (if you call adding Stormsurges and some beasty formations minimal) have affected the Tau meta.  As usual, folks on the Interweb are already scoffing at some of the new CSM formations, but until they actually get played, who is to say.   Bottom line is we will have to see what, if we actually get one, the new dex looks like before passing judgement on its long term affects.

The other issue I have with the cry for a “new” CSM dex is that, wait for it, you don’t need a new dex.  I will agree that some of the ICs need a revamp and you could use a new unit or two.  But I have also seen KDK, Undivided and Nurgle armies do well and be competitive at the local level.  If it’s the power gamers who have an issue with needing a new dex, so be it.  However, I think the previously mentioned “dex light” and some new units/formations (the GW M.O.) would be plenty for the local gaming scene.  This is without the mention of additional “Kin” armies (Tzeentch, Nurgle, Slaneesh).  You might say, “Dan, you don’t play CSM, so what the hell do you know about any of this?”  OK smart guy, I don’t play CSM, but I DO play against them.  And when played by experienced, competent gamers, they give anyone a good run.

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The 800 Pound Chaos Gorilla

With that out of the way, let’s talk about the 800 pound gorilla in the room.  Yes, 30K is what I speak of.  Like it or not, Horus Heresy is sucking the life out of the 40K CSM scene.  Did I actually say that?  Damn right.  And get this readers, you know it’s true.  Take the recent rise of 30K at Adepticon.  During an interview on The Long War podcast,  the gentleman who is the grand poobah for the event stated that the number of players in this year’s Horus Heresy event was 150…last year it was 50! 200% growth in a single year.  Are you telling me that a “new” CSM codex would drive that many Chaos players to rise from the proverbial grave and get back into the competitive scene?  Highly doubtful.  There has been a similar increase in 30K interest at other recent major events, such as LVO.

Anecdotally, I have seen a significant increase/crossover from 40K to 30K in my local meta.  One of my friends was a 40K Iron Warriors guy forever.  He is now all in for 30K; Perterabo is a regular in most lists I have seen him play.   Another friend was (yes, there’s that past tense again) our local Eldar master for the longest time.  He has now built a 5000 point Night Lords army…and before you ask, Curze makes frequent appearances.  Others have talked seriously about starting other Traitor Legions; Alpha Legion seems to be a popular choice.  Do we see a pattern here?

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The real question is why the movement to, and overall growth of 30K?  My thought is that one thing it gives Chaos/Traitor players is something they do not have in 40K;  the chance to play a specific Legion (Chapter) in which they have a special interest in.  The bonus is they also come with Legion specific rules.   Things are different for loyalists.  Say I want to play 40K Iron Hands.  Their are specific Chapter Tactics as well as transfers that I can use to customize.  They also have a Chapter specific supplement (Clan Raukaan).  Same could be said for Raven Guard, who also have Chapter specific rules as part of the recent Tau campaign supplement.  Most recently, the new Angels of Death supplement is the epitome of taking care of the loyalists in 40K, while essentially ignoring CSM by giving them Chapter specific rules, toys and formations (sorry, not counting Khorne; they are the one Chaos faction that has received some love).

The most specific 40K traitors can get is by specific Chaos god.  Nurgle players can have a Nurgle army, but they really aren’t Death Guard.  Slaneesh has their Noise Marines, but they are not really Emperor’s Children.  And what about the traitors who don’t follow a specific Chaos god?  Night Lords, Iron Warriors, Alpha Legion.  There is no way for a hobbyist who has an interest one of these Chapters to really play to their narrative.  30K/Heresy opens the door for them.  Now my friend who plays Nurgle can actually play as Death Guard.  The guy who says he has a 40K Word Bearers army can actually play Word Bearers, complete with Chapter specific rules and characters.  And finally, the bonus in Horus Heresy for both loyalists and traitors is that you get to play your Primarch!  What Grimdark hobbyist wouldn’t want to throw down with a demi-god in the middle of a massive firefight and assault?

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What Will You do?

So 40K Chaos players, the bottom line is I don’t think you are ever going to get a new dex (now that I have said this on the Interwebs, I am certain it will be announced next week!).  Then there is this my traitor scum friends…why do you even need one?  With the momentum shifting significantly in the Horus Heresy direction, isn’t it time to throw in and get started?  Like it or not, the lines between 30K and 40K continue to blur, and expecting a new CSM codex is truly a proverbial pipe dream.  In the words of the classic R&B singer Ruth Brown…”that train don’t stop here anymore.”

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Have you 40K Chaos folks considered moving over to Horus Heresy?

 

  • CMAngelos

    *gets popcorn.. Waits*

    • SYSTem050

      * pulls up a chair sits down beside. Brought snacks

    • Hedwerx
    • Coltcabunny

      ..

    • ChubToad

      Brought my nachos along. *sits down and waits*

    • plasmaspam

      Yeah… As a paying customer of 20 years, I’m not sure where to start on how offensive most of the conclusions are in this article.

      • CMAngelos

        Mkay, I’ll start off with a small disclaimer: This will be a Long post and I play Space Marines, I got started with Space Marines when a friend handed me some Metal HQs and a Codex he didn’t want anymore. Since then I have played Marines and only Marines save for a few Sisters of Battle, so my views come as someone from the “other side” of the table so to speak.

        With that said, Chaos needs some serious love, (so do some other races but this is a chaos thread so they’re the focus).

        Formations and some new units are Not going to fix the Codex on their own, they will certainly help but not solve the issue. Across the board, CSM need some heavy duty surgery to repair what they are fundamentally.

        They need some core rules changes. Should they be Spikey Loyalists, no but they need to be something of a Warped and Still unique Mirror of Loyalist Marines.

        “And They Shall Know No Fear” is a huge contention in this, do I think Chaos needs this exact rule? No. My reasoning for this is These Tainted Marines, are for the older ‘legions’ still mentally stuck in the Heresy, where ATSKNF did not exist, loyal or traitor. So for 40k it makes easy sense for loyalists to have it and Chaos not, but they need something different not just the absence of it. I don’t think handing out Fearless is the way to go, but perhaps a version of Stubborn.

        The Chapter Tactics Debate! This is a touchy Subject, but it’s something that should be addressed. With Crimson Slaughter and black legion existing here are my thoughts.
        You have 6 long war legion sets and 2 renegade sets. The 6 legions are 1 for each God and 2 undivided, the two renegades are unaffiliated essentially for “build your own”.

        Each legion has bonuses like chapter tactics but Is also tied to a god. So for say Thousand Sons Doctrines, you get something something psykers, and something else, but you must choose mark of Tzeench (at no cost) for your whole detachment.
        Same would be World Eaters – Khorne Emperors Children – Slanesh you get the idea.
        And then the undivided, are unique undivided benefits plus the Doctrines.

        The renegades would have 1 undivided and 1 pick your god at will for mix and match.

        With identical rules to Marines that can’t have two active Tactics in at single detachment.

        Basic Units: points adjustment across the board.

        Equipment: While ForgeWorld has produced some awesome CSM units and given a lot of options for vehicles in IA13. Some Codex changes would be nice. We’ll look at the Land Raider. There should be some Codex Variants, something like the Redeemer, but make it a Poison Template, or since Chaos seems to be a big Autocanon fan, two Quad Autocanon sponsons. They both fill the Same roles as the Crusader and Redeamer but operate fundamentally different.

        A new Flyer: some sort of Transport maybe. Not some warp twisted Stormraven but something unique.

        Keep the Dinobots! Demon engines are an excellent narrative unit that just need some tweaks and some additions.

        The contemptor and cataphractii units. Although I believe that you are wholey better off with the IA version of the contemptor (this goes for Vanilla Marines as well). These should be implemented for Chaos.

        Transports. Here I’d kind of say Chaos is on par with Marines, no they don’t have Razorbacks but as a transport they are meh and I can’t really think of a chaos alternative thats not a Razorback clone.

        A few more special characters wouldn’t hurt either.

        In the end I want Chaos to be fun for me to play against and I believe that a new Ruleset for them is necessary along with new units for this to be a thing without just playing a Codex Space Marines clone.

        Until then I personally urge Chaos players to pick up the FW Heresy rules to use for Chaos Space Marines, most people are going to be fine with them.

        Just my two cents!

        • plasmaspam

          I disagree with around 30% of your points, but it’s still a more reasoned and debatable argument you’ve made than that of the original article.

          • CMAngelos

            Out of curiosity, as a chaos player what do you disagree with?

            Not for the sake of arguing, of course. I’m genuinely curious what your thoughts are, it might give me some better ideas. 😛

          • plasmaspam

            “Should they be Spikey Loyalists, no…”. I suppose my blind spot here is I don’t know what they are if they are not Spikey Loyalists as a baseline, and that it’s then Legion traits and Chaos Marks that fundamentally augment or alter them. I’ll be honest and admit I don’t own any HH rulebooks, so don’t know what i’m talking about in terms of a 30k Astartes vs a 40k one in gaming terms. But I assume they are fundamentally the same.

            ATSKNF not for CSM. For me, again a 30k Marine is the same psychologically as a 40k one. Canonically, i’m sure that the Emperor had declared that they would know no fear when he first conceived the idea, so as a game mechanic i’d argue it should be perfectly reasonable for a Long War veteran to have the same behaviour as an M41 recruit.

            Chapter/Legion tactics. We shouldn’t be restricted to 4 marks + 2 undivided catch-alls. I just feel it would be so easy to write a half page for each of the Traitor 9 that outlined traits, spec rules and restrictions that delivered real fluff and flavour to a vanilla CSM codex; this in itself could also represent Renegades via application of an appropriate special character or supplement. Again, full disclosure, I’m a Night Lord player, so my bias shapes these ideas.

            Fundamentally, I think I totally agree with you on the basic issue – get the Vanilla CSM codex right (no small task) and everything else hangs off that.

          • CMAngelos

            Fair enough, decent points all of them.

            When I said Not Spikey Loyalists I mean, there should be some definite differences between the two, otherwise you end up with just another C:SM Codex.

            The chaos side should have equal stats, absolutely. And an equivalent points bracket between the two. Where they need to be different is Special Rules.
            And by different I mean just that, not better or worse just different.

            Otherwise you get the same thing from just using the Vanilla Marines dex with traitor Maine models.

            My reasoning for 30k is something changed between all 30k Marines and Loyalists in 40k, ATSKNF doesn’t exist in 30k at all. You have some legions that get Stubborn, some that can get Fearless stuff, but all Marines base can break run get swept and so on in 30k. So, something is fundamentally different between Long War Vets and New Blood vanilla chapters.

            That’s my basis for giving them something similar but not exactly the same as ATSKNF.

            When it comes to the tactics idea, perhaps there should be one for each Legion, and one or two for the better known renegades. That i won’t argue, but I do think the Mark they can take should be reflected in this. It shouldnt be required to take mark/demon of X. But that should be the one available to them. Which still allows you to say use your Night Lords with any of the “tactics” without forcing a mark on you, but you get it free if you choose the one aligned with that legions entry.

            Possibly leave the marks separate but in that case paid for, outside of the Legion tactics.

            For example

            World Eaters Tactics + May take “of Khorne” for free but may purchase other marks for x-points.

            Or

            World Eaters Tactics, better base tactics: all marks cost points.

            Or

            World Eaters Tactics + May take Khorne free for detachment, may not purchase/use others for that specific detachment.

            One of those three ideas. It allows you to play your legion the way they should be played. And it let’s little Jimmie make warband X and pick his favorite. That’s also just a very bare bones layout with a lot more fleshing out to do but that was my initial idea on how to tackle the situation.

          • plasmaspam

            Yeah, understand and agree more now with everything you’ve elaborated on, especially the bit about Traits and Marks.

            Now I’m hoping this is the bit you reveal your real name is Jervis or Phil and you’re off to write this book!

          • CMAngelos

            Lol.. I wish.. I really do wish.. x.x

      • Smac

        This article reminds me of an article I read about how basketball in Canada will take over Hockey. More than laughable. 30k is great but come on man, too many followers in 40k for GW to not keep updating CSM. They will get it eventually. The new formations that were just released for the most part are garbage even at local tables, including my table. They will get it right eventually, just need to hit the right author,

  • Charax

    Well, I’m an avid Death Guard player whether they have specific rules or not, and yes, the standard CSM codex does a crappy job of representing most of the legions, so I’m restructuring my army so that it functions in 30K and 40K.

    I take issue with you calling the new formations CSM formations – they are not CSM formations, they are not available to all CSM armies, they are Black Legion and Crimson Slaughter formations, and as such are useless to the CSM player that does not wish to use these supplements, just as you wouldn’t call the Blood Rain Strike Force a “Space Marine Formation”

    Forgeworld helps a bit – Blight Drones have always been awesome, Decimators and Ferrum Infernus dreadnoughts add some flavour to the spiky marines, but it only goes so far – we DO need a new codex, the CSM force was designed for another meta, another edition before formations and alternate detachments were widespread, and there are too many flaws, poorly costed units and outdated mechanics to fix with patches

    Sure, certain builds of CSM are competitive, but that’s part of the issue – SOME units are costed or available in such a way that they’re no-brainers, others you never, ever see because they’re effectively useless, a good codex will be written so every unit is viable.

    A big part of the problem is theme – the CSM codices of the past have had two distinct roles – represent chapters recently turned to Chaos (the Crimson Slaughter) and the Legions of old – various methods have been attempted – 2nd edition did it by allowing 25% of the force to be Loyalist units to represent captured/updated equipment, while still having access to older technology (the Mk1 no-overheat Plasma weapons), 3.5 did it by allowing your basic CSM trooper (the fresh-off-the-battlebarge renegade) to purchase veteran skills to represent their experience, and the latest version fluffs it up with the VotLW “upgrade”, which is a nice piece of background but kind of useless against everyone who isn’t a loyalist (especially for Cult troops. yay, my fearless troop gets +1Ld, I’m ecstatic)

    Whether or not we ever get a new codex, something has to change, and patching it by saying “Well, if you abandon the theme of your force and choose to play them as this supplement instead you’ll get shiny new toys” is hardly a viable solution. New codex, legion supplement/s, generic formations, whatever – the 2012 codex needs something or CSM players are going to start abandoning their forces entirely, not just shifting to 30K.

    • BT

      Well said. But I think the Author has a point. Look at the Ork Codex, just like Marines and most other armies, they had different tribes that brought different flavor and tactics to the board. GW simply just ditched it for a single ‘Ork’ codex, same as what they did with CSM. Ghaz and Abby… it is eerie on how similar both books shake out. It is almost like the only diversity they want is for the marines, screw everyone else.

      • Desmond Burke

        We ain’t
        Goin’ nowhere
        Goin’ nowhere
        We can’t be stopped now
        Cuz it’s Bad Moonz for Life!

  • Noveltyboy

    While entitled to your opinion, it’s pretty dumb. The “updated” armies just needed an update. Chaos need more. They tested the waters with our codex, Black Legion was the first (worst) codex supplement. If they don’t revamp the book they will lose more players and have a big ol warehouse full of Chaos shaped plastic.

    • Ross Allan

      No way. Iyanden was the first one.

  • Red_Five_Standing_By

    Dark Angels invalidate your point. Their codes was a big overhaul that turned it from weak sauce to competitive.

    Chaos deserves the same treatment.

    • Spacefrisian

      There are several others who are also in need of a rework. Unless GW doesnt want my money, until that happens it goes into other pockets like those of FFG.

      • Mike Siegmund

        I am really looking into kingdom death as of late $400 mite be a lot but you seem to get a good game. Or WM/H that is coming out with a new edition soon mite get more players

      • grossedent

        this !
        i totally agree with you, i’m a tyranid player, and wanting a new codex with a big decrease of point costs

        but now 40k is becoming a w30-40k for space puppies players and others players can get lost…

        Fortunately there is xwing

        • Mike Siegmund

          To bad xwing here went to RPG style with a no imperial rule and I only collect imps

          • Lexikon

            That’s very strange. And unfortunate.

        • ILikeToColourRed

          x wing doesnt play anything like 40k. Its like going to a steakhouse and being offered tofu

          • Ben_S

            You mean it may not be what you wanted, but it’s probably healthier for you and better for the planet?

          • Joka

            Tofu healthier and better for the planet?
            You should go in the slaughterhouses where they butcher Tofu, it’s worse than what they do to cows. Electric cattle prods, walls stained with Tofu’s blood and they finish them off bludgeoning them with clubs borrowed from the guys who kill baby seals.

          • Crevab
          • Joka

            Never knew those ones… but yeah, they seems to deserve butchering too.

          • Dave Bacon

            As someone struggling with meat addiction and trying to ween myself off it and onto tofu I find this reply offensive, naive, succulent and oh so very, very tasty. How I miss you sweet dead cow. At night I lay awake, reminiscing about our time together as I tuck heartily into your moist, pink flesh, the juices running down my chin, a nice peppercorn sauce smeared delicately around my lips.

          • Hedwerx

            Going veggie must be particularly difficult with your last name. Looking at envelopes addressed to you, filling out forms, etc..

          • Joka

            Woah, i managed to make a discussion on Chaos codex even more salty!

          • jeff white

            “tuck”?
            eww…

          • Soybean farming better for the planet? Tell that to the rainforest burned to make room for more monocrop fields. In the grim present planet earth knows only farming. 😉

          • Hedwerx

            Mud for the Mud God!
            Ears for the throne of Corn!

          • Desmond Burke

            This. Though they do the same thing for cow crops, and corn, and …

            Then you look at all the delicious stuff that Monsanto puts into all these wonderful ‘veggies’….

            This planet sucks, see you guys later. I’m going to Ork! Oooh gotta hit the Taco Bell drive through on the way though…

          • You may not realize it, but that soy is being used for animal feed, not tofu

          • I do, actually. I know way too much about it all. I grew up on a crop farm in Alabama. I’ve actually planted and harvested soybeans! Mostly, we farmed cotton though. I moved away from home before the peanut farming started. Thank Tzeentch.

          • euansmith

            B-zinga!

          • ILikeToColourRed

            yes exactly

          • Haha zing

          • Drpx

            Yeah, and like steaks, 40k is more likely to cause heart attacks.

          • ILikeToColourRed

            I would like to see your data, sounds like an interesting study

        • Marky

          30k isn’t all big robots. So 30k beats 40k for gaming.

          40k is all big robots and tanks and stuff, so 40k is more of a spectacle (if plastic toys can be a spectacle).

    • vlad78

      But Dark Angels were remade by using the space marines template with special rules.

      The chaos space marine codex doesn’t even push players to field chaos space marines whereas tactical squads are the bread and butter of many vanilla space marine lists.

    • euansmith

      Plus Chaos is supposed to be the Big Bad in the 40k Universe, so should have a decent Codex and should feature Chaos Marines that are worth fielding; even as a Sergeant Upgrade for Cultists.

    • Brad

      competitive? wut?

      No doctrines or any other fun/competitive toys to play with, one formation (that lets you shoot nice overwatch! Wooooooo…) no Centurions, formations and detachments who’s rules are at least half negative/restrictions.. How is this competitive? Do you play with SM rules in addition to DA rules or something?

      CSM is in much worse shape, but the DA codex is a dud. More competitive if you just forget they are dark angels and play as generic.

      • Mike Siegmund

        You must have missed the Ravenwing part of the book

        • Brad

          You’re right. Silly me, expecting the Dark Angels army I have to be effective with more than one “wing”, and/or to be as interesting or competitive as vanilla marines. I should just buy another 2000 points of ravenwing! Ohohohohoho.

          I get it. You are a CSM player. Your dex is trash. Doesn’t mean everything else is peachy keen.

          • Mike Siegmund

            The only thing I saw bad was the lack of null deployment for deathwing we have some DA players one Ravenwing one mix player who wishes for 1st turn deep strike

    • plasmaspam

      because i’m an antagonistic and contrary sort, i’ll say it was still disappointing as they ruined my Deathwing.

      • Boondox

        Yeah, the Native Uhhmerikan look killed it for me too…

  • Mike Siegmund

    You have to be joking or a fluffy player only. 1/2 of the CSM codex is useless over costed junk and that’s being nice. I as a CSM player have stopped buying and see no point to throwing good money after bad. No one here plays 30k and even if they did I don’t think I will ever get more than a small force the costs are to dam high do to forge world and there price gouging with VAT taxes baked into the prices so they can pocket the extra money.

    • disqus_CktyL7rKWJ

      and even IF you go down the 30k route, you will be disappointed. It’s really nothing but 4th ed. 40k with double the amount of convoluted rules.

    • I want to play fluffy CSM because I love love love the warp talon sculpts. But like most fluffy players, I do like winning too. In fact, my preferred style of play is competitive fluff, so it’s a real problem.

    • Shiwan8

      No sane fluffy player thinks that the codex is fine or even close to it..

      • Mike Siegmund

        But a fluffy player might have a army so weak that a CSM player can put up a good fight that or just be a bad player

        • Shiwan8

          Without WAACing it and not playing against sisters, no he/she could not.

  • disqus_CktyL7rKWJ

    Iron Warriors a “Traitor Legion”? What do you mean? Of the 4 HH characters for them, 2 are Loyalists, one is a Primarch and one is dead. Perturabo (which is the correct way to spell it) made his point and then retired. All the others died on Hydra Cordatus or went full KDK. The sucessor is an Imperial Fist with an UM inferiority complex. It was a Loyalist Character from HH who brought the IV. Legion into 40k as the Silver Skulls chapter.
    So IW just got their latest supplement (Angels of Death), and I’m quite confident the next SM codex is already in the works.

    and btw, “Crimson Laughter” (without the “S”) is the correct way to riducule it.

    • Chris. K Cook

      I know those words but they don’t make any sense.

      • disqus_CktyL7rKWJ

        take a closer look (at that warhound titan miniature) …

        • Chris. K Cook

          Bicycle, watermelon garden hose flamingo.

          We are just saying random stuff now right?

  • Austin Glover

    so your saying an old codex doesn’t need a new updated version because its fine even thought its outdated, and then suggest people play 30k because it gives the chaos players what they don’t have in 40k. no offence but that is speaking through both sides of your mouth, you cant just in one paragraph say that their fine and in the next say that because they don’t have legion specific things that their switching over to 30k.

    • Mike Siegmund

      I wonder if this was payed as a 30k ad but then he never played CSM will never play CSM as he plays the space fascist

      • euansmith

        Rebranding it as “Spaces Fascists vs Space Anarchists” does put a rather different spin on the conflict 😉

        • Severius_Tolluck

          Waiting for an imperial guard model named Hemingway to appear recanting his days.

          • Derek Lee

            He already did, but a Commissar/Inquisitor *Blamed* him and redacted all of the tale except the dates and body counts.

  • ILikeToColourRed

    issue with csm for me isnt that you cant make a reasonable list for local play, its that the number of legitimate options is limited by heavily overcosted units – getting me to field possessed would require them having an extra wound for that price

    • Mike Siegmund

      For me it’s I can’t play them vs a growing number of army’s as its auto lose its almost to the point of not even taking them to the shop as the graves no fun if the only army’s I can win vs are BA nids orcs and tau

  • SYSTem050

    Ok I will bite,

    I think the main problem with CSM is that different people
    want different things, Some want
    essentially Space Marines with spikes while others want the full deep end of
    chaos ala Daemons, engines cultists etc.

    Now this is doable, my approach would be to it would be with
    formations. Make the basic troops
    Marines plus spikes with chapter tactics for each legion plus a
    renegade/undivided tactic. Then start to
    produce formations to add in the extra sections. Examples of this could be

    cultist teams -squads of cultist lead by a demagogue/dark
    apostle

    deamon engine formations

    cults of cult marines etc.

    Just my two cents (well pennies really)

    • Noveltyboy

      The biggest problem is they constantly tone down Chaos. Even so far as to hinder their link with Daemons (preventing them using CSM banners to prevent scatter being one).

      • nurglitch

        Yet having Daemons in Possessed, Mutilators, Obliterators, Warp Talons, and the Daemon Engines, the synergy remains.

    • Ben_S

      I’m not sure if the problem is just that players want different things. I think GW have never known what to do with it, since at least 2nd edition.

      • SYSTem050

        Fair point not sure which one drive which. GW describing CSM in conflicting ways, from rabid war bands to dedicated fighting forces. Playerswanting to represent all the various options on the table.

        Again i think they need a quite comprehensive review to be able to accuratley reflect the variety of options. My other suggestion would be to allow chaos to be battle brothers with all imperium (well probably not Grey Knights)

        Issue with all of my thoughts though is that i am a long way from a WAAC and dont tend to worry about broken combination etc.

    • PHlevels

      It’s funny because I remember Forgeworld had realeased updated rules for playing as Astral claws. It was essentially renegade marines. It was pretty fun you could take guardsmen type guys and they would give you better cover saves but would die in the process.

  • Old zogwort

    Fck it just play 30k soudns fine.
    But how about those who like the cool exotic 40k models such as hell drkes. And how des this come close to fixing anything for orks

  • benn grimm

    Nice try guy; CSM need a new codex as much as any other faction, more in most cases. You can tell from the Tau release precisely zero and you can tell from the HH success that the legions are popular. The re-release of the supplements indicates they know CSM books sell in 40k.

    Most people I know play 30k because its less of a headache than std 40k, its no real surprise that many of them used to play CSM (or BA, GK, Nids, DE). | think the real question is; why has the CSM book been so bad for so long? For me its confusion; its not an easy army to do well, and these current studio guys just aren’t really sure what to do with it. The Thorpe/Cavatore rebrand was horrible a few years back and everything since has been along similar lines, including all the recent supplementary nonsense.

    The Black Legion book is a joke, because Chaos Elites are a joke. KDK is good because you get units from a good codex (CD), plus rules to make absolutely sure you buy lots of hounds and at least a couple of thirsters. Crimson Stupid are literally the definition of that horrible soulless re-boot. What do you mean you want character and depth? Spikes and horns and bloody blood blood are just so much easier to do…

    • Shiwan8

      I really, really disagree with you on the difficulty of making a proper CSM codex.

      • ZeeLobby

        It actually is quite tough. In the end they’re bad space marines, but you don’t want them to play like space marines at all, in any of their 18 space marine forms. So the trick is making them unique, while not duplicating playstyles of the 20+ unique SM chapters with rules. It is a challenge. Maybe not for the original studio designers, but they’re all gone…

        • Charon

          Why? I basically started CSM back in 2nd because it was space marines with horns and skulls. Not because they play totally different.

          • ZeeLobby

            Well it only matters if you care about good game design. If you don’t care about that, then you’re most likely a player who doesn’t care about losing 9/10 games now. Every army should have it’s own design space in a system. It makes playing the game more diverse, challenging and interesting.

          • Charon

            What is good game design? 40k is poorly designed with a very few niches.
            DE are labeled as the fastest army with a deadly alpha strike and their tradeoff is weak armor. Sounds fine on paper. So lets find out how it plays:
            every vehicle in game can move up to 12″ in the movement phase. DE are the fastest so they move… 12″
            Every infatry unit moves 6″. De are the fastest so they move… 6″.
            But hey… the have fleet. Like eldar who can run and shoot making them faster than de. Like other units that can run and assault making them faster.
            And this is what you sacrifice your armor for. Beeing of average speed.

            So how we design CSM who are basically space marines for all physical purposes to play vastly different from loyalists. Different rules? Does not matter. A MEQ
            is a MEQ no matter his special rules. It just makes it better or worse than other MEQ.
            A standard CSM will never be able to fulfill a different role than a SM ever.
            The units are perfectly equal except for the special rules.

          • ZeeLobby

            Well if a MEQ is just a MEQ, which is your understanding and desire, then why do we need a CSM codex at all? Just release a fluff book and say use the CSM models with SM Codex.

          • Charon

            Which is basically what a lot of people already do. I have seen more nightlord counts as ravenguard or World Eater counts as Space Wolves armies than actual CSM nightlords outside of 30k.
            We need a codex because our MEQ which is exactly the same (do you really deny that?) has less rules than their MEQ.
            This did not change their role in the slightest or do you feel CSM troops play any different and have different strenghts and roles than SM troops? The only thing that makes them different is basically “SM can do it better”

          • ZeeLobby

            I’m saying they SHOULD play differently. They’re god-enhanced super warriors who’ve battle for millennia gaining power through dark pacts, possessions, etc. I would love if CSM became the elite leaders of the force while cultists made up the majority of the unit, and if CSMs could easily kill an entire squad of SM on their own. Sadly GW has pumped out hundreds of books where one SM slaughters 20 CSM in just as many seconds, so what we get are pale shadows, when they should really be something completely different.

          • Charon

            See? And I dont wanna see damn cultist in a Chaos SPACE MARINE book. Where CSM should be the stars and the main theme and not a weaker imperial guard army that is led by a few HQ like models. Because this is what we already do.

          • ZeeLobby

            Only if you limit what you expect a CSM to be. They have warp flowing through their blood. What if they were as powerful as a terminator, and terminators similar to DPs. What if you can choose between an elite force comprised of purely elite CSM, or hordes of cultists pushed forward by demonically possessed monsters. All this sounds more interesting in both fluff and play than “my red marines with boltguns and angry horns shoot your blue marines with boltguns and lack of horns, but it’s OK now cause they cost the same”.

          • Charon

            I would not want to play both. You can do that with Marines already (superfriends) and as I said before, I do not want to see cultists in the csm book. Thats what IA13 and Vraks is for.

          • ZeeLobby

            Yeah. Dunno what to tell you. You’re the first chaos player I’ve ever met who doesn’t like having cultists in the army, and the majority of the fiction includes them with chaos forces. People are bitter that they’re more competitive than most of the MEQ choices in the CSM codex, but cheap fodder is one of the most Chaos Space Marine things out there.

          • Andrew Thomas

            First, you aren’t playing DE right. Their vehicles go upto 24″ each turn, and can Deep Strike. If you have basic infantry walking, you’ve already lost with them. The idea is to get close, suppress your opponent’s dedicated shooting, then pick off whatever’s left on the board. Not the Dev team’s fault that TOs are too cheap to provide the necessary terrain to mitigate shooty armies.

            While Nids (as well as Orks and Chaos) suffer heavily from Dev bias, the fact that fluffy Nid lists and competitive Nid lists scarcely overlap isn’t entirely the fault of the Devs.

            And no, baseline CSMs do not need to be all that different from loyalist SMs; the armies, on a macro level, need to be. So really, the CSMs themselves aren’t the problem, it’s the other, overcosted, underwhelming units that are, as is the lack of differentiation between the Legions and Renegades.

          • Charon

            Their vehicles do not go 24″ in the MOVEMENT PHASE.
            So first learn to read.
            Second, even if you count TB in, Eldar Vehicles are just as fast while not suffering from “we cant have better armor than 10”.
            Want to claim Deepstrike is a hallmark of Speed? Let me introduce you to SM who can deepstrike for 35 points and are also not reduced to AV10.
            Your second point is also not true. Heavy terrain is not the solution to everything. Besides you dont have to be a genious to find out why mass armies do not work.
            A unit of 40 models is harder to move than 8 units of 5 models. It is harder to place, harder to hide. Harder to get into melee with. It is easier to shoot und harder to shoot with it as the unit is so big that a lot of models will always be out of range. One unit can hold one objective, 8 units can possibly hold 8.
            There is a reason why better armies are played MSU. This has nothing to do with terrain, just with the fact that big units suffer heavy disadvantages..
            Also in tourneys it is not the terrain but the LIMITED TIME. Mass armies take ages to move and with only limited time you will end up forfeiting half of your tunr. So please…. dont make things up.

          • Andrew Thomas

            Note I said turn, not Movement phase. And it’s 30″ actually (cruising + flat-out). My point was that they are faster when they want to be.

            Drop Pods are stationary, can never be embarked upon once deployed, and only grant cover, meaning that unless their next to an objective, you have no good reason not to shoot right over them if you want to. And Drop Pods can’t Jink, can’t ever Overwatch, and have no weapons of any consequence.

            Terrain is the solution when your army isn’t wearing power armour or toting buckets of invulnerable saves, psychic powers, or ambulatory cover, be it cheap vehicles or chaff infantry.

            Nowhere did I advocate for massed infantry, I just pointed out that armies that are billed in the fluff as massed infantry-centric can’t practically be played that way, because their basic infantry, by themselves, tend to be a waste of points when fielded above a certain quantity, especially when their nature as cannon-fodder isn’t backed up by the rules. Your complaint about Nid lists these days being nothing but FMCs and spores reflects that, because those units can do that and have the necessary rules support.

          • Charon

            But I said movement phase. Also Eldar are the same speed, no trade off. the point is pretty moot, DE are not the fastest army by any metric.

          • Andrew Thomas

            Well, you can’t fire out of Wave Serpents or Falcons, so you give up a chunk of your shooting phase there. Besides, comparing anything to CWE is like comparing your kid’s crayon drawing to a museum piece — all you achieve is a cheap laugh and a lot of emotional damage.

          • Charon

            If my army cant compete with eldar anyways it makes no sense to play against them. So whats the point? The same situation is CSM vs SM. It is basically a similar army with similar stranghts and weaknesses that is outclassed in every single instance.
            So basically these armies do not make any sense

        • Xodis

          I think the difficulty comes from trying to please everyone in a single book, and just trying to harness CSM into a single book period.
          5 books minimum…
          -Undivided/Warbands: Plays like C:SM but slightly different, able to get a little of the neat and new weaponry (for high costs) and Deamon weapons (for high costs).
          -1 for each god like KDK unique in flavor.

          These 5 books are needed as a base, and THEN they could add in Specific books for special warbands or old legions that can merge both. Not sure why GW is so afraid of this idea, everyone knows that CSM sells.

          • Mike Siegmund

            This is right on target I was hoping for this after KDK. Gives chaos a mix of codexs like imperial get and bring back the old allies set up so you can make it fluffy i.e. Only undivided can use god that hate one another.

          • ZeeLobby

            I totally agree with this. It’s how it always should have been. They just don’t want to have to manage that, especially now that SMs make them so much money. It’s sad. I was really hoping more daemonkin books would be on the heels of Khorne…

        • Shiwan8

          Oh come on. It was done brilliantly in 30k. There’s nothing amazingly complex there.

          The real challenge they have is that they have to grow out of their attitude problem towards CSM. I mean, look at the codex CSM and the previous SM codex. It’s “like marines but a lot worse and with a twist”. The book is all about minor enhancements having huge drawbacks and the 30% CSM tax. Compared to SM that has major enhancements without drawbacks and they are either free or the same cost at most.

          • ZeeLobby

            And 30K armies play very similar (I’ve played my fair share). Yes the legion characters and traits make them unique, but I’d rather have CSM be something different than just SM with new chapter tactics.

          • Shiwan8

            CSM is really not much more than SM with daemons. Each legion has it’s own specialization regardles of alliances. Other than that the real tactical difference is the tendency to throw cultists at the enemy just to eat bullets and some of the loyalists do that too. Then the daemonic influence hits the table and we have ample ways to represent that already.

            What we need is marines with dirty tricks that do not care about unit gear restrictions. Chosen like options on regular chaos marines and the ability to shoot at at least the cannon fodder if it means hitting the enemy too.

          • ZeeLobby

            While that might help. It’s still marines, with 3+ saves, that die easily to scatbikes. I like my epic twisted 10000 years of battle experience elites, I’m not sure regular marines will cut it.

            That said, I really like the idea of friendly fire.

          • Shiwan8

            That’s a problem in scatbikes and the like.

      • benn grimm

        Fair play, that’s your prerogative; its just what I’ve read gw designers such as Chambers say about the subject. He/they made a pretty convincing case, for me anyway.

        • Shiwan8

          If “you” start from scratch and do not undersgand the meta, sure, it’s hard. But in that situation anything is.

          Cure for csm: Drop the points 25%, add formations and identify fix problem units/rules.

          I could do a better job than they did inna day if I would use the present codex as a starting point. It would not be eldar level ridiculous but it could put up a fight.

  • Tsukuro

    Let’s not miss the other 800 pounds gorilla in the room, You talk about Nurgle and Undivided (usually, Black Legion). They are kind of fine, I agree. Khorne has received some love too, as you say, But Tzeentch and Slaanesh suffer from the same disease: amazing rules, but overpriced and underperforming. Guess you haven’t seen those much, or you would understand they need a big rework.

    • Daniil Osudin

      amazing rules? you mean like space marines, space wolves, eldar and imperial guard being able to cast powers better than anything from tzeentch – the god of ‘magic’ (except for the paradox relic).

      Any good list i try to build with daemons/csm of tzeetch comes down to fateweaver, couple of horror squads, screamerstar with 1 or 2 heralds, another lord of change, belakor, rhino with death of kasyr lutien, plus any left over points…

      • Tsukuro

        The +1 Invulnerable is really really nice, just think about some 4+ Inv termis… And the inferno bolts… just… wow! And a lvl 1 psychic as a sarge with rubric marines… So, yes, they HAVE amazing rules.

        Anyway, I can see your point (although you cannot compare the Tzeentch power list because of the different edition). They are so expensive that they don’t live up to their cost, so… why use them… unless you are playing BL, of course.

        • Shiwan8

          Amazing rules, just cost too much to be of any use. Think of a situation where WK and IK both would cost 1000 points a piece. That’s the comparable cost to what those units you mentioned cost.

          • Karru

            Couldn’t agree more, with the current CSM codex Thousand Sons are worthless, Noise Marines are on the edge due to their “lower” point cost but having to pay 30pts for the Blast Master and needing at least 10 models to have one is just silly.

          • Hunlow

            They erratted the blast masters so you can have 1BM in a 5 man squad and 2 at 10. Its still 30 points each though.

        • Daniil Osudin

          terminators in general aren’t very cost efficient, but the best we can have is 4+, while loyalists get their storm shields on everything, so not very amazing…

          Inferno bolts are just ap3 bolters if i remember correctly sternguard get those as well as anyone can get a combi weapon, plus 4 more types of bolts, while thousand sons are more expensive, have zero tactical flexibility and can’t take special weapons…

          The ml1 sergeant would be good if he coud select from any other discipline than god awful tzeentch discipline in csm book… but he can’t because of that restriction.

          Man i hope Forgeworld will do thousand sons justice and i can go play proper sons of magnus for a change…

    • Shiwan8

      It’s all crap. How many people play KDK with the actual marines? Likely no-one. That’s how much love they got. KDK is nothing but a different way to play khorne daemons.

    • Charon

      If you refer to KDK with “khorne got love”, that is not really true as basically no one fields the CSM side of KDK.
      You see bloodthirsters, flesh hounds, bloodletters as minimum troops.
      The only reason why there is ANY csm model in a KDK army is, that it is either a tax (Bikers in Gorepack) or was good before (maulerfiend). Other CSM units still do not see play.

  • Mário Martins

    When chaos cultist are the MVP´s your codex have a problem

    • Knight_of_Infinite_Resignation

      And even those are so much better in IA13 and Vraks .

    • Brian Evans

      This sums it up nicely.

    • Djbz

      And Imperial guardsmen are as cheap (or cheaper if you give them autoguns) and are better

  • Korvalus

    Okay, like my avatar shows I am a CSM player an have to say tat we DO need a big overhaul in the rules to stay competitive. 30k is no excuse because some of us are not with the legions and thus are not interested in fielding primarchs, legion rules and what not.

    However, when you see the actual CSM range I have to admit that MAYBE you are right in some measure. See, CMS has a lot of finecast (characters, obliterators, cult upgrade kits…), which GW is showing to have an interest in removing and releasing new kits while at it. If we combine these relauches with a campaign expansion with some reworking in the affected profiles (what that’s they’ve been doing, really) several of the issues can be worked, puls some new units/units re-released can make the rest, like they did in thyranyds with the sporocyte. This won’t fix all units already in plastic (warp talons), but hey.

    Also people, because unknown reasons, doesn’t point something that can, and do, help CSM here: FW Imperial Armour. There is several nasty pieces of work that can be of help and several doesn’t require much investment (chaos contemptors, Dreadclaws, weapon batteries, Helltalon/blade, Chaos Knights if they include the new variants…). And since they are legal in games and tournaments unless the org says otherwise…

    In short: You’re somewhat mistaken as CSM would really like a full fledged new codex. However you’re not far from the truth as a release of CSM would hit several finecast units which need renovation and some new to shake things up and do some good. But regarding FW you’re focusing on 30k and not in 40k which chaos have some saving graces and helps, which is where several CSM should look and see what can be brought to the table.

    • Shiwan8

      There’d have to be so many changes worked in to those new model releases that it might as well be a new core codex. The chaos tax in the points costs alone does this.

  • Chris. K Cook

    ” already scoffing at some of the new CSM formations, but until they actually get played, who is to say. ”

    Mathhammer twonks panned the Daemon Formations. People who actually play Daemons think they are nasty.

    • Charon

      I actually play daemons. They are still not nasty. Your best bet is still the same stuff you played before the curse of fenris formations.
      40k really is not quantum mechanics. If you have a model with 10 in all stats for 100 points it will always be better than a model with 1 in all stats for 100 points.
      The formations do bring 2 apects that are worth mentioning: even more DP spam and +1/-1 to the stupid random Warpstorm table.
      Sadly the 2nd one comes with so much tax units that the bonus becomes basically worthless while the first one makes 2 DP completely undesirable due to a useless mark.

      • Chris. K Cook

        Ok well I’ve heard different from guys I know who also play them.

        Have you tried them out on the table yet or have you just ‘run the numbers’?

    • Mike Siegmund

      Depends on the god they play. The ones for tzeentch are piss poor over costed crap

      • Chris. K Cook

        Funny that’s the one that the guy who regularly places high in tournies all over Oz I know thinks are awesome given he plays Tzeentch Daemons.

        But what would he know?

        • Mike Siegmund

          Is it pure tzeentch or is it mixed

          • Chris. K Cook

            Pure Tzeentch.

            He has some Khorne for Summoning.

            Oh and he has Belekor too.

      • Chris. K Cook

        So say the Mathhammer guys that don’t actually play. I’ll take the word of a guy that Plays Tzeentch Daemons and does well competitively with them over the collected wisdom of this site and other such derp fests.

  • Knight_of_Infinite_Resignation

    Space Marines got a codex 10 months ago, so you can’t argue they have stopped producing new codexes. Besides GW have never been big on consistency, they rarely make it through an edition without changing design direction at least twice.

    Plus the CSM dex is and will continue to be a thorn in their side until they update it. They know angry players don’t but minis and at worse quit. Perhaps with this new management they will actually listen to us.

    • Shiwan8

      Even a new codex is meaningless if it’s as “good” as the present one.

  • Painjunky

    I wonder if the shoe were on the other foot and your beloved imperials were neglected, at the bottom of the power meta and chaos were getting new books and units monthly and ripping up the tourneys would you still be writing this?

    Of course you wouldn’t. you would be sending death threats to GW.
    Hypocrite.

  • Westdraygon

    Mate, ever consider that all the Chaos are migrating to 30k because the 40k codex is dirt? And they just want to play traitors without losing damn near all the time?

    Because I can tell you that’s the main reason for all the people in my flgs playing 30k. Nobody plays a loyalist.

  • Muninwing

    short answer:

    if i’m sick of getting sand in my sandwich, eating sandy pudding isn’t going to meet my sandwich cravings.

  • Chaosrex

    Well that was hilarious read.

  • Defenestratus

    I knew that 30k would fragment the 40k community. So called it.

  • Painjunky

    I predict GW’s profit margin will continue its long term trend (falling) until they release decent codexes for the neglected csm, de, orks, etc…

    Even if they do I fear it is already too late.

  • sethmo

    I somewhat agree with this. I think some point tweeks for artifacts and a small book update for a new unit or two is all that is needed. Yes possesed are too expensive, but you look at the formations coming and maybe they are usable again. (FNP nurgle possesed? Yes please)

    It is lame to use crimson slaughter rules to get the army to work, but I bit that bullet a while ago….

    • Charon

      The formations already leaked with all their rules. Black legion is a bad joke (sticking a fearless lord into a unit of terminators to gain a fearless unit of terminators as formation bonus) and crimson laughter is not much better. Wanna play the big formation that makes posessed actually good? Better play 2500 points and stil lose because you have no option for anti tank or anti air at an apoc sized game.

    • Shiwan8

      Anything is usable if you do not even try to win. Playing possessed as anything more than a tax for KDK is just plain stupid to do.

  • BT

    Of course someone who doesn’t play CSM and has access tot he most versatile faction would say ‘you don’t need a new codex’.

    Every loyalist marine player would be balling their eyes out if all of those codices were reduced to one book and given something as lame as ‘marks’ to split them up to Space Wolves and Dark Angels. But hey, don’t worry Smurf players, you would get the same love as Black Legion, because GW will tell you everyone /wants/ to play Black Legion, you just don’t know it yet. Then explain it to the DA, BA, SW, GK, and other power armor codices that all you are is smurfs with a different paint job.

  • Shiwan8

    Well, it’s like this.

    – You can not mix 40k and 30k as long as the later lags about 1/3 behind in point costs, about the same as CSM.
    – If you want to play 40k you can not play CSM in any reasonable way at the moment.
    – If you have a 40k CSM army and want to play 30k you are going to have to get a whole new army from forge world. The 40k chaos minis are not compatible with the 30k range.

    Oh, and if anyone gets a challenge out of beating CSM that does not have the sorcerer formation… I have bad news for you, you just do not know how to play the game.

    • We’ve been playing 30k with 40k miniatures for a few years now. One of our guys went to adepticon and played in the 30k event with his 40k csm models. You dont need an entirely new FW army to play 40k.

      • Shiwan8

        Well, it’s physically possible. 30k models are as close to 40k models as eldar are to astra militarum -> it’s senseless.

        • I dont see the big difference to be honest. The marines are wearing a different version of power armor, thats the largest issue that I see.

          • Shiwan8

            Spiky emo marine vs. MK3. Basic human shape is the only thing common in those.

  • Adrien Fowl

    Sorry for breaking the mood here but, who really need a new Codex are the Dark Eldar players. 🙁

    • I like Dark Eldar and CSM and looked into playing both for my next army. DE are a little less in desperate need than CSM. Plus they have powerful battle brothers.

    • I love dark Eldar. The epitome of a glass cannon.

      • Charon

        And by glass cannon you mean glass water pistol?
        They have a lot less firepower than Crons, SM, Tau or Eldar while they trade their armor for it. Unlike Crons, Sm, Tau and Eldar.

        • I don’t play competitively very often. But in all of my games they do just fine. Probably not as well in competitive settings though.

    • Shiwan8

      Am I wrong or do DE get WKs?

  • Karru

    I’m starting to see a trend here in BOLS regarding anything CSM. “Can you play CSM? Yes, as long as you don’t play them.” seems to be the go to answer. Anyway regarding CSM needing a new book, answer is yes. Can GW do it? I have a bad feeling that they just cannot do anything that would make them interesting.

    I started to do write my own CSM codex since this is the way my gaming group approaches things if GW can’t release a fun codex. Currently 20 pages in and it’s already more fluffy and interesting than GW ever managed. I started to make it from the basis that CSM are currently not a unified force in the way of Space Marines, so I decided to not include Legion rules of any sort, since I wanted to make Chaos feel like Chaos and not supplement to Space Marines.

    To give a general idea of some of the changes:

    – Champion of Chaos changed into a buff giving similar bonus in a challenge that the old Black Templar Tactic gave in the last SM book. (re-roll to hits)
    – Boon table removed
    – Lieutenant and Sorcerer Lord added, Chaos Lord made a buff similar to the Chapter Master/Captain. Sorcerer Lord to give the option for a Warband that is led by a powerful psyker and thus doesn’t have 2 wounds.
    – Lords of Chaos rule added, gives additional buffs to character that takes a Mark of Chaos and in addition gives and additional 12″ bubble bonus to all models if the Lord is your character. Something to note is that this is only available to Lords and Daemon Prince.
    -> This rule was made with the idea that CSM Warbands always follow the strongest so I wanted to make sure that the one that does the leading is actually terrifying.
    – Marks bonuses changed a bit to make them more interesting on something else other than Cult Marines.
    – Psychic Powers buffed and made into something worth taking.
    – Cultists do not count towards the mandatory Troop Choice, to make sure that the book is called Chaos Space Marines and not Codex Cultists

    Those are just some of the things I’ve changed and I haven’t even reached the points yet. My vision for the book is to make something where everything is interesting in some way and make the whole faction feel like it is supposed to be. In a week I’ve come up with things that GW would never even consider because they seem to be afraid that CSM would become more popular than SM.

  • nurglitch

    People that want a new CSM book need to buy CSMs. GW follows the money. That’s why Space Marines keep getting new products.

    • Niklas Persson

      If this was the truth then the Dark Eldar would still be stuck with their previous codex.

      Instead almost their entire line got remade.

      • nurglitch

        Depends on whether you consider product lines completely separate, or somehow related. If Eldar, for example, are selling well but Dark Eldar are not, and one of those has up-to-date miniatures and products, then it stands to reason that the other is a good bet if it’s also given re-releases. That’s ignoring that Dark Eldar simply aren’t that popular. Gorgeous miniatures, no doubt, and my first 40k army, but they’re so far down my priority list as to not exist insofar as I’m concerned.

        • Mike Siegmund

          Yet Eldar are a strong seller yet have a lot of finecast

          • nurglitch

            Have you considered the logistical mess of turning their Aspect Warriors wholly over to plastic production?

    • JP

      That’s the chicken and egg thinking that landed Sisters in eternal Purgatory. And Sisters don’t even have plastic to their name anymore. How can CSM possibly have sunk that low?

    • Mike Siegmund

      Yet CSM were in the list for top sellers last year even with piss poor rules

    • Hunlow

      That doesn’t really make much sense from a business or consumer aspect because minis aren’t consumable items. When you play a game of 40K your little guys don’t actually blow up. Or do they? Maybe I’m playing wrong. So there is really no reason to buy CSMs. Heck that might even dissuade then from creating new stuff because then they will think ” Hmm CSM are selling good as is so we don’t need to create new products for that line”.

      I’ve got enough Chaos minis to make 2 armies so until GW releases some new CSM products, no thanks, I’m going to wait and save my money for when they do.

      • nurglitch

        In the meantime they keep churning out Space Marines, and new version of Space Marines, and new kits for Space Marines, because people buy Space Marines. I own three companies worth. The first company was destroyed by an ill-considered attempt to strip their first paint job using pinesol. The second company bifurcated into loyalist and renegade factions, with the renegades becoming my Night Lords. The Loyalists are slowly turning into a Battle Company plus three Reserve Companies (not including 1st and 10th Company elements, Forge, Librarius, or Reclusiam).

        • Hunlow

          Wait a second. You’re using converted Space Marines as Chaos? You’re telling people to go buy CSM models and you don’t even have any yourself!?!

  • Davis Centis

    There does need to be a new Chaos Space Marine dex, for the following reason:
    #1 – Fix Core Units: The biggest issue in the ‘dex is the lack of reason to bring the namesake, Chaos Space Marines. I’m not saying they are weak (they are), but rather that have a distinct lack of flavour. Nothing about these guys says “Chaos”. Havocs, Chaos Land Raiders/Predators, Chaos Lords, and Chaos Bikers all have this same problem. I feel like I’m taking loyalist marines without any bells or whistles when I take these guys, sans a Mark, and a random roll on an underwhelming table.

    #2 – New Weapons & Units: I’m not going to say that Chaos should have access to grav (though, looking at 30k, seems they still should), but after 10,000 years in the Eye of Terror, these guys should have more access to modified weapons that do new things, or should have more access to old weapons that are still functional. There’s a lot printed in Forgeworld that really just needs to make its way into the core ‘dex.

    #3 – Update Special Characters: Unfortunately, like many others, this means Abaddon’s moving to Lord of War status, but hey, it needs to happen. Ahriman needs to be a top-tier psyker again. Kharne somehow does not have Eternal Warrior. There are Chaos players that don’t even know who Lucius the Eternal is.

    These are the main reasons for a new ‘dex. These are not things that can be fixed by just making a new formation or patching over with campaign books. These are not re-skins. Printing a new codex would give a better foundation for any new supplements added in the future. The current one is too shaky to support much of anything.

    • Boondox

      #2 all the way!! They’re either using ancient tech from the HH days that has been warped over the past 10K years and/or scavenged Loyalist stuff that has been warped.

  • Orodruin

    Weak article. Induced rage just from the title, actually read it and just shrugged. Filler material.

  • I’ll counter your anecdotes with mine. No one here plays 30k. The store manager hasn’t moved a single box set. Xenos is strong here. 30k doesn’t support Xenos, so finding people to play is difficult. And it’s expensive on top of that. You might also consider that 30k fans struggle to find opponents, thus an increased presence at Adepticon.

    • Mike Siegmund

      Or that do to the piss poor power balance at adepticon 40k rule set 30k was a more balanced fight

  • Mr.Offspring

    This is the most obvious bait I’ve ever seen, but I’ll bite.

    You’re giving yourself the reason why CMS need a new codex: chapter specific rules.
    Why would Chaos players have to move to 30K to have those while loyalist scums have boatloads of them just in their huge basic codex ?
    There are of course Crimson Slaughters and Black Legion supplement, but their first edition was at the price of a standard codex (38€) to have 3 pages of warlord traits and Chaos artifacts; yup, no datasheet or formation, pretty small compared to ANY Space Marines supplement.
    Did I mention the insane number of battle brothers within the imperium ? Would it be too much to allow Dark Mechanicus for Chaos with a minimum of conversion ?

  • Tau didn’t need more. KDK is good but mostly the same few builds because of the weakness in the CSM units.

    Will they get a new codex? I have no idea. But I think they need one pretty bad.

    Could a supplement fix them? Yes, but it’d have to be one amazing supplement with great formations, some form of chapter tactics, add-ons to a few units, etc.

  • Yup.

    • Mike Siegmund

      I am getting there

  • Deez

    Unless GW is planning to kill off 40k completely, all Codices need to be updated and balanced as the game evolves. Focusing on three to four armies out of, what is it now? Twelve forces? It gets boring as of late seeing SM, Eldar, Tau, and Necrons on the table versus each other all the time.
    In the author’s defense, if you have a core gaming crew that you play with frequently. Why do you need a new codex? If you are experienced enough with the game, experiment and modify rules sets to make your force competitive again. As long as your opponent agrees on the terms and you aren’t a pretentious crap, who is to stop you in private play? GW has, for the most part, always been notorious for neglecting certain forces for years while consistently updating others. Prime example SM’s.

  • DeadlyYellow

    PP just announced a new edition for Warmachine/Hordes. Apparently they’re updating all their armies for the edition at the same time.

    What absurdity.

    • Mike Siegmund

      And they have been working on it for 3 years so it’s ready to go from the gate

    • Countdiscount

      This isn’t to suggest it can’t be done, but PP has like 12 armies to update, and GW has…. probably double that, and so many more unit choices and optional weapon and wargear choices for each army, to be fair it’s a bit unwieldy to update all at once compared to Warmahords.

      • DeadlyYellow

        I tried to think of something witty and concise as a retort, but that much thought about how GW handles their IP has only made me sad.

      • Erber

        And yet they did exactly that for Age for Sigmar with all the old fantasy armies.

        • Countdiscount

          In AoS they scrapped everything and started from scratch. Does that sound like a good idea to you? You think the AoS model for how to update all the rules would be a good idea with 40K? I don’t.

  • LordKrungharr

    Tzeentch Marines will get rules in the next Wulfen book. Possibly alpha legion too. They know chaos is super popular and Will sell stuff. Though I guess a totally new codex, perhaps not. Maybe after a bunch of formations go out in other books, then they can reprint and add them for easy money? And add a gargantuan creature or reduce the lord of skulls cost by 300 points?

    • Shiwan8

      Well, that sounds idiotic so it’s likely true.

  • Meat Puzzle

    One of the big issues is that the range that represents ‘the forces of chaos’ is absolutely massive, especially when you include the daemons in the mix (which should absolutely be the case in my personal opinion). If you were to include all the rules for legions, vehicles, undivided marines, daemons, daemon engines etc, the codex would be twice the size of a normal codex – but do you know what? Why the hell not? Just make the codex massive. Include everything but cost it up correctly and make the rules effective. Trying to cram everything into a codex for the sake of its size is a bad move.

    • Shiwan8

      Too much for them to handle.

    • Brian Griffith

      GW already showed us they have no aversion to larger than average codexes with the last couple Space Marine ones.

  • Perversor

    So i read the Article, and most of his arguments feels like saying hey Sisters of Battle or Astra don’t need a new dex, the Space marines are doing fine!!

    Am i the only one?

    • Shiwan8

      That’s his argument…

  • The idea that because GW hasn’t done a full codex update for the last couple of releases, nobody will get a new book again is just silly. GW can’t stick with a design direction for more than a year at a time, I expect everyhing will be different in a year once again

  • Sephyr

    My club has been itching to just write a CSM fandex and flip double birds to GW. Too many people there like to model and play chaos armies (usually kitbashing or using other suppliers to avoid buying GW’s outdated, lame models, like the basic chaos marine, plague marines, Berserkers and such).

    As others said, Dark Angels saw a respectable reworking, so it’s not a matter of ‘cant’, but of ‘wont’. I alsp doubt we’ll see a Chaos book in the next 2-3 years, and the odds of it being a good one are smaller still. I remember being impatient for Dark eldars to get their update after their stellar 5th edition codex…and then shelving my entire army once they did.

  • Brett Thompson

    Ever since they came out with the Emperor’s Children Rite of War that allowed me to move my Noise Marines over to 30K any thoughts I’ve had of playing them in 40K have disappeared. What’s happened to Chaos Marines in 40K is a total joke and a stain on the hobby – even their SUPPLEMENTS are getting updated before the main codex… what the hell is that?

  • owlbutts

    3 words. “Army Wide Rules” everyone else gets them. CSM have to pay for VotLW and Champion of Chaos is just bad. They need a reworking of the Boon table and some tweaks to the Psychic Powers while they are at it.

    Oh, and while I’m dreaming small. Let CSM and Demons combine squads like actual battle brothers, y’know, like Khorne.

  • Deathmage

    Undivided doing well? Belakor and 5 cultists. Khorne deamonkin? Yay, everybody loves more khorne… Nurgle? Just Nurgle spawn and Bikers really… So yea, we’re doing fine!

  • Countdiscount

    I agree that the Chaos dex is better than people give it credit for, but isn’t competitive against tournament lists. That being said, I think it’s fine for your average pickup game. It does however need an update, and a lot of the issues with competitiveness could be fixed wit a combination of points adjustments and formation rules.

    However that doesn’t solve the problem of not having the armies being more god specific in theme. Hopefully that will come when they finally get around to the other Daemon Kin books. Switching to 30k doesn’t solve this for a lot of players because in 30k, the armies aren’t as mutated, and so doesn’t fit the bill aesthetically for a lot of us.

    • Shiwan8

      Better….how?

      • Countdiscount

        Not complete thrash that can’t win a game. That’s how people represent it, but the codex isn’t that bad. It’s just not good enough to compete against stronger builds. In a friendly game, you can win.

        • Shiwan8

          Compared to what? 7th edition has not seen a codex that can lose to CSM and you are out of luck if you want to find something worse printed on a paper from 6th.

          I’ve played almost exclusively friendly games. I have won 0 with CSM after the last nerf that took the last remaining tools from the codex and lost 0 to them with friendly builds. Though I am just one person I have little doubt that most share this experience.

          In theory you are ofcourse right. CSM can win in theory. It just does not happen in practice.

          • Countdiscount

            I play in a campaign with a few Chaos Marine players, and while they lose more than win, they do win if the Chaos player roles hot. They just do NEED to roll hot. It’s just not as dire as you’re stating.

            As I said before, it’s just not strong enough to compete in a very competitive meta or tournament scene

          • Mike Siegmund

            Lol that’s like saying Eldar can lose they just need to roll bad

          • Countdiscount

            Yeah, but my point is not that the Chaos Codex isn’t bad, it’s that it’s not so dire it can’t win ever as most of these hyperbole posts would have us believe. If all it takes to make a list win some is some hot rolling, I believe the codex can be fixed with some points changes and some good formations.

          • Shiwan8

            Lets just take one unit here and try to fix that. Just for an example. Chaos Space Marines. How would you change them?

          • Shiwan8

            You see, the point when your argument stopped having merit was when the context came up. When that is the situation in a cheesed out tournament then it has some merit. Now it’s just ” it’s ok if everyone else makes crap lists and they roll like a god”.

          • Countdiscount

            Don’t be a D. I didn’t say how competitive the campaign I’m playing in is. Everyone cheeses it up some and the Chaos Marine players still win sometimes. We just typically don’t play at tournament level cheese all the time.

          • Shiwan8

            It’s a campaign. Not a tournament.

          • Mike Siegmund

            I can win with CSM vs BA a bit more then 50% and do ok vs orcs nids and tau

          • Shiwan8

            BA, nids and orcs are 6th edition codices and at least your tau opponent needs to learn how to play and how to build a list.

            Honestly it’s really, really meaningless to list things that happen in fluffy narrative games. It’s all about what happens when all pleasantries are dropped and each player does everything he/she can within the rules to win.

  • Dan Wilson

    So basically I was highly enthused by the formations that came out in the big rumour dump a while back http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2015/12/chaos-marine-rumors-mega-dump.html I was already putting a cultist army together but these formations would have been perfect. They offered themed fluffy lists as well… I’m not competitive so I can’t comment on how valid they’d be in comp play.

    • Shiwan8

      Skimming throught them they’d be better than what we have now.

  • eehaze

    The problem comes down to this: What are the CSM good at? With the current rules (including the new formations), very little.

    A lot of CSM units are built around close combat, but the rules offer little to help them get there. The Rhino is not an assault transport and offers up an easy VP to your opponent, and the Land Raider is only available to Chaos Terminators outside of a CAD. Deep-striking units have nothing to help their accuracy or their survivability during the turn that they arrive.

    Another issue is a lack of overall durability and few ways to manage leadership. 3+ saves are not what they used to be, thanks to power creep, and CSM has to shell out a ton number of points to give their units fearless. The only multi-wound model with Eternal Warrior also happens to be the most hilariously overcosted model in the game.

    Lastly, the army’s special rules tend to be unpredictable. I know this is a fluff choice, but it robs a CSM player of any real tactical decision-making. It’s typically impossible to tell if a particular unit is going to succeed in any particular situation, so all you can do is move your models up and pray for lucky dice rolls. Fluff aside, I like to have more input on my army’s success than just having good/bad luck.

    However, this is the bottom line: I am a new player, and I chose the wrong army. I made my decision based on the look of the models and the army’s backstory. CSM are a great army for people who like to customize their models and read the books, but they constantly disappoint on the table.

    edit: I forgot to mention that the CSM have no answers to Gargantuan Creatures, Super-Heavy Walkers, or Flyer Spam.

  • Nathaniel Wright

    Tau didn’t need many fixes. You’re asking for GW to ignore the fact that CSM was created in that lull where they weren’t sure what they were doing with flyers. It was a time period where they did the ‘oh we want to BALANCE the game’ similarly to Blood Angels, Grey Knights, IG, Nids, Dark Eldar, and Orks.

    Then the arms race happened, and those codecies were blown out of the water because Papa GW needed to make his money.

    I wouldn’t call it unusual or even a stretch to think they might do some redesigns for the guys that need it. I could fully imagine Dark Eldar, Blood Angels, and Grey Knights getting the ‘just a little change’ treatment.

  • Gilissen Kim

    Why would they not need a new codex? It is laughable at best. You only use them as Allies with something like Daemonkin for Sorcerers, Cultists and Obliterators. Everything else is garbage!
    40k NEEDS this to survive on the long term, without CSM on the table it would be like Star Wars without the Sith.
    Iam not playing 30k if i can only choose between a “good” Space marine and a “naughty” Space Marine, who fell in a different bucket of paint for variation. Where is the diversity, where are the xeno species?

  • Smac

    LOL I’m still laughing at how bad this article is ..after reading it again.

    • Boondox

      I’m starting to think he throws out a BS topic backed by his ego’s fantasies just to rile us up…

      • Shiwan8

        Really? 😀

  • Boondox

    Chaos in the HH is like a non-alcoholic beer in the hands of teenagers. Just a teaser of the fun you could have with the real thing. 40K is the Chaos keg party with strippers and cocaine. So damned straight they need an updated Codex (or two) that turns them back into a kickass force of their own instead of Spiky Vanilla Marines. GW needs to open the original Realm of Chaos and Slaves to Darkness and get inspired.

  • laclac

    wow…. i dont even play csm and i want to slap this guy…

  • Ryan Angell

    As a long time Chaos Daemon, I picked up CSM’s as an allied force and like the rest of the world was unimpressed. But I bought more and tried other things and tweaked my list. Now I can hold my own with my CSM force as is. Would I like some changes? Yes! Mainly a D6 Psychic table and formations. But its a challenging army and have to find its strong suits- which are in its elite choices TS and NM, Sorcerers as HQ, Forge Fiends, Nurgle bikers, and my FAVE HQ slot: Flying Daemon Princes of Nurgle with Burning Brand (2+jinx lols and AP3torrents for days) or a Daemon Prince of Khorne with Ax of Blinding Fury (who doesn’t like 7+D6 S9 AP2 attacks? That possibly 13 Las Cannons hitting on a 3+ that ignore cover and have hatred Space Marine).