Are They Good? Crimson Slaughter & Black Legion Books

 

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The new 2016 Chaos Crimson Slaughter and Black Legion codex books are here BUT how good are they for Chaos players?

Just how good IS the new Crimson Slaughter book really? Well first off it’s basically the same book as the old one, just with a set of tactical objectives, and new formations. However the wargear and warlord traits are all the same, BUT you can select wargear from both this book and the Chaos Space Marine book as well.

Take a closer look at the new book below in our first look video review!

Crimson Slaughter: A Codex: Chaos Space Marines Supplement $33

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Once the loyal servants of the Imperium of Mankind, now the Crimson Slaughter leave only destruction and despair in their wake.

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Tainted by the genocidal purging of Umidia they are plagued by the voices of their victims. Only through butchery can they silence the voices that haunt them – but the whispers of the dead always return.

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Within the 72 pages of this hardback, full-colour book you will find:

the gore-splattered history of the Crimson Slaughter – a tragic tale of how a loyal Chapter was transformed into Warp-cursed, bloodthirsty renegades;
supplemental rules for building an unstoppable army of the merciless Crimson Slaughter.
a showcase of Crimson Slaughter miniatures;
a series of narrative missions that enable you to recreate some of the Crimson Slaughter’s bloody battles;
rules for unique relics, Warlord Traits and new stratagems that reflect the Crimson Slaughter’s favoured tactics;
a set of 7 formation datasheets and Crimson Slaughter tactical Objectives.

 

New Chaos 2016 Crimson Slaughter Review Warhammer 40k 

New 2016 Chaos Black Legion Rules Supplement REVIEW

Abaddon Talon of Horus Art Black Library

None of the Chaos stuff has made a splash for a lot of die hard Chaos players, it seems like it’s all just Dinobots and Cultists. When you look back at the 3rd edition codex, which I just did a review of here, it’s a far cry from what it was.

This was the first update, over 7th edition, for Chaos in particular. I’m not 100% sure if this is new or old, my iPad updated itself and it let me update the new book early. I saw the new cloud icon and woooop there it was. Thanks Steve Jobs!

I’m going to apologize in advance for the screenshots I wanted to get this done and out to you as soon as possible because we have SO much coming out this week right?

First off the book  has all the normal Supplemental infos, the Introduction, the fluff and background, et cetera.

In the actual army book section, it tells you how it works, and that of course just like the Ork book it tells you that you can use the Chaos Artifacts in addition to the Chaos artifacts from this Codex as well. Booya!

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The warlord traits look the same; but remember this new codex overwrote my old version so I can’t say for sure. IF you notice this is different please tell us in the comments!

The big highlights in the Warlord Tables are the Preferred enemy and the It Will Not Die traits. Having played Heldrakes at Adepticon the it will not die warlord trait was great in my opinion, like MVP almost!

As for the Artifacts, I like the Crucible of Lies, it’s a solid choice. I also like the Skull of Ker’Ngar, which for 40 points is great and even gives Eternal Warrior (one of Chaos’ big weaknesses).

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I like the Bringers of Despair, it gives a WS and BS boost as well as granting a Re-Rolls for Look out Sir for Abaddon himself. The true gangsta of Chaos.

 

The chosen of Abaddon is also amazing because it confers Fearless, that’s huge for Chaos. Bring a squad of terminators in a Spartan and that’s a solid choice.

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The Hounds of Abaddon is great because it lets you take the Mark of Khorne for free and anytime you can generate more attacks with rage is a good time. It also grants Let Slip the Hounds, which lets units in the formation run and charge once per game after the first turn. Khorne’s Favor gives +1 strength if you make a charge roll of 8 or more which could be great if you can get your enemy down to Toughness 3 to start dealing out instant death.

There isn’t a Decurion style formation, only a Black Legion Warband Formation which is pretty nice but in the grand scheme of things it doesn’t give it enough to make it competitive.

The book, in general, isn’t enough to make Chaos Competitive again; sadly I think this is just a fluffy book.

These are just a few of the highlights from the book, if you want a page-by-page, rule-by-rule review of the new book check out the video!

New 2016 Chaos Black Legion Rules Supplement REVIEW

Top 3 New Game-Breaking Psychic Powers Long War Episode 47

  • Gunsheeplol

    Kinda surprised they didn’t give CSM a decurion-style force org with these releases

    • petrow84

      With free dreadclaws!

      • nurglitch

        They’d need plastic dreadclaws first. Crossed fingers…

        • Sebastien Bazinet

          Or just give CSM access to Drop Pods….

        • Nathaniel Wright

          What’s that? More dinobots and cultists?
          I think you mean more dinobots and cultists. Here’s a combo pack of cultists and a single space marine that you’ll never use!

          • nurglitch

            You make a good point. Time to buy some Anvilus-pattern Dreadclaws!

        • Andrew Thomas

          Conversion. Just needs spiky bits.

          • nurglitch

            I’d rather have an official kit.

    • Joshua Nathaniel Bergeson

      Why would they do that? GW hates money, and that would likely make people buy more models.

      • Andreas Noche

        You´d really like to see the CS sorc more than once? You know, he has a 1 in 6 Chance to get you a free greater daemon just because?

        • Charon

          Smaller… you first have to fit numbers. This chance ranges from 2,77 % to 16,66 % (depends on the numbers you were rolling as double 1 is harder to match as 3 + 4) and THEN you have a 1/6 chance.

          • Andreas Noche

            Which is true. However, note the designer´s note: They included assault 2 weapons. And, if you go by raw, every weapon is shot seperatly (rolling all dice is just more convenient). That is, every bolter can trigger that thing. Multiply by decurion. Have fun.

          • Charon

            They included the example because of different weapon groups.
            If you have a unit full of bolters in 12″ you roll them all. If there is a single plasma gun in the unit, you have to roll it extra (as there is a rule for different weapon profiles).
            Your approach would slow the game down to an extreme and is by no means RAW.

          • Andreas Noche

            I´ll get back to that, once I have my copy ready. Can´t really tell now.

    • Zack Seiders

      Part of the reason why I am ticked about this. WAAGH ghazghul gave the orks a decurion like formation (with 2 formations to pick from regarding the mandatory formation). Along with several others. That and the hounds of abbadon is the only formation even involving a mark of chaos (while a free mark of khorne is nice it is still a situational mark “unlike nurgle which is the better mark, and only reason you get mark of slannesh on a marine squad is for icon of feel no pain”

  • Dan Wilson

    I’m taking formations from each for my army. The crimson slaughter cult of slaughter as my main core, the warpsmith and two forgefiend formation from black legion and the sorcerer enclave from BL. Then lots of spawn and three vindicators. And a renegade knight… Or two…

    • Joshua Nathaniel Bergeson

      Psst….I actually have two knights that I’ve been running as chaos using stand in rules for a while now….they can’t even come close to bridging the power gap between CSM and astartes. No joke. They get tabled every single game due to…drum-roll….GRAV.

      P.S. Don’t waste your time with Forgefiends. They are over-costed and borderline useless. Maulerfiends are…ok if you use them FLAWLESSLY….oh wait…GRAV.

      • Shiwan8

        FW released chaos knight rules way back. Why not use those?

        • Dan Wilson

          Because it’s absurdly overcosted. It’s like 450pts and that’s without marks or upgrades.

          • Shiwan8

            Exactly the same cost as a loyalist knight, just like the new ones.

        • Andrew Thomas

          And you have to pay a tax if you want more than 1 Knight.

          • Shiwan8

            Good point.

          • Zack Seiders

            that or for renegade knight you want to give it SOME support when it goes against another knight or goes against anti vehicle lists. Like say units that are fast enough to keep up/ be a distraction or units that will hinder an enemy knight if it is in close combat. “khorne daemonkin players know what units/ unit I am talking about”

          • Andrew Thomas

            *nodding in agreement* and don’t forget those Skull Cannon, because going last sucks.

          • Zack Seiders

            If I can spare the blood tithe and if I do not need feel no pain anymore skull cannons are normally what I summon if I want some gun. Ap is rather crap but that is not the reason why I like the gun.

        • krisbrowne42

          I’m actually curious about folks who have been using the FW rules – I imagine a Paladin w/ the Nurgle upgrade should be at least a _little_ more interesting (5++ everywhere on top of the 4++ on the shield facing, and IWND) for 420pts, and option of negating overwatch (which I wish the Renegades knights had as an option)

          • Haighus

            Well, it gives a gradient now, with Loyalist knights, renegade knights, which I consider to be more recently turned, and then the fully devoted to the Dark Gods Chaos knight, which can even be daemon possessed.

          • Shiwan8

            My experiences are bad but I’ve played a lot against fists so it’s pretty much given also.

      • Andreas Noche

        Mmh, I heard the loadout of the renegades will be the most powerful weapon combo on any knight as to date?

        • Joshua Nathaniel Bergeson

          I have had the knights since before that was released. We started using those however. Didn’t matter. It would help to have formations or artifacts or something of the like. Still wouldn’t matter because….GRAV. As for new rules, I haven’t seen them. I really can’t see them mattering much, due to…..grav. Its too damned powerful, especially because of formations like the Skyhammer AF.

          • ZeeLobby

            Chaos really needs a grav equivalent. Doesn’t have to be grav itself. But some Kai guns maybe? Something that is spammable and can put out the hurt. I know this only makes the game more and more imbalanced if we go down that road, but whatever at this point, I’d just like to see more CSM around.

          • Andreas Noche

            Why does it make the game imbalanced. When everyone kill anything it´s the very definition of balance. You may not like it, but you asked about balance.

          • ZeeLobby

            I didn’t ask about balance. How is giving CSM a gun that kills as much of a grav gun going to help keep it in line with any of the other forgotten factions (DE, Orks, BA, etc.)

            Listen, I know well enough from the other thread that you think the game is perfectly balanced as is, so we REALLY don’t need to go down this whole road again. When you read balance in my posts, just move on please. I won’t mention balance in any response to you, and you can just not respond concerning balance to any of my posts, and we won’t have to waste eachother’s time.

          • Andreas Noche

            Nah, it´s balance is horrible. But yeah, we should stop here.

          • ZeeLobby

            Haha. Thank you. Plenty of other things to discuss besides balance, and one persons desire isn’t always the same as another’s.

          • Joshua Nathaniel Bergeson

            I agree. It wouldn’t even bother me, grav being a thing, if CSM had an analogue to it that helps them deal with Air and all those free transports the game is getting spammed with. Reaper Autocannons/autocannons are nice, but they don’t cut it in the long run. Since Chaos’ air power is so weak, we really need something along those lines more than anything IMO. Since they nerfed Helldrakes so hard, they can’t even effectively Vector Strike other flyers anymore.

          • ZeeLobby

            Yeah, I’m just not a big fan of arms races. My dream would be for GW to remove special weapons across the board. I miss the days of bolter fire. Now it’s all plasma this, grav that, D weapon this, etc. I mean all of that should have stayed 1 per unit, and expensive. But yeah, every army should have an anti-air equivalent as well. Personally I think some daemon ammo would be an interesting addition to the game. Some heatseaking reaper autocannons for example. If anyone should be able to bend bullets, it should be Chaos.

          • Joshua Nathaniel Bergeson

            On your latter point I agree. Malefic Ammunition is already a thing, to modify it slightly or spread it a little more would be a good start. Same with the anti air. Everyone in the game has a solid flyer or dedicated anti-air units, with a few exceptions and its noticeable. On your first point I don’t agree, but see where you are coming from. D weapons was an unfortunate necessity GW added in to balance the game against Death Star units that broke the game. Specials are a toss up between races. Some have more, some have less, some have far to many. Its definitely a cluster situation, but making them more expensive will only hurt the races that actually need them more.

          • ZeeLobby

            Well, the idea would be to balance price depending on need. I know. I know. Big dreams, haha. That said, D was not an answer to deathstars. D was just randomly thrown in to promote the addition of GMC and Super Heavies, because $$$. Deathstars existed well before the addition of D, and GW never cared, and they still exist now, as D is not available en mass (thank god, cause then the game would be based on just a bunch of first turn rolls). I’m a firm believer that D wasn’t some brilliant balancing tactic by GW. They’ve never had those before, so I find it really hard to believe they decided to go to it now.

          • Andreas Noche

            I once heard, Infinity is very deadly once you leave cover. Maybe they tried something along this lines as well as keeping the super-heavys a little bit more vulnerable?

          • ZeeLobby

            They just wanted people to play apocalypse, because those kits are still pennies to make, but sell for a lot more. It’s why they’ve added LoW as a slot to armies, to promote the purchase of giant models that molds are done for, but they can sell for large profit returns. The thing is, even before D existed in 40K, super heavies and GMC were really not that hard to take care of. Grav, melta, etc. There were already answers out there. By giving Eldar a significant amount of D, you could now convince players to buy the large models that don’t insta-die to them.

            I mean the huge difference between Infinity and 40K w/ D is that when you leave cover, you lose your $15 model in infinity. In 40K, you lose your $100+ 2/300+ pts model, almost just as fast. I mean these things should be unkillable behemoths, not removable like gretchin.

            In 30K/Appocalypse, it works, because those game systems were balanced (by FW design studio) to play well around devastating weapons and brutal games. The problem is more than half of the existing 40K range is STILL nowhere on this level. I mean when you have people leaving 40K to play 30K because it “plays better”, that’s the reason why.

          • Andreas Noche

            Yep, that´s GW´s update circle in action. Ahhh, the times were 3 different version of the same wargear were a thing *feeling old*

            The money value is a meh argument. If I want to crush my ferrari, I don´t care I could crush a beetle for less money.

          • ZeeLobby

            It’s a meh argument for you. For many people, asking to shell out $100+ for a knight is not cheap. Then taking the time to convert and paint him, weather him, and make him look gnarly as all hell. By the time you’re done, you’ve put a lot of love into that model.

            Then 4/5 tournament games, he gets removed by D weapons, turn 1, repeatedly…

            I’ve had this happen to a friend, he was seized on twice, and lost turn roll twice, and each time a tau/eldar player removed his knight turn1 (one might have been turn2). It’s disheartening, and honestly, a pretty negative experience.

            Then again GW sees themselves as the Apple of wargaming, so they might not consider price at all as they see it as giving them an “elite” image. But in reality, if you pay a lot for something, and don’t have tons of money to blow, you expect to play with it…

          • Joshua Nathaniel Bergeson

            Speaking of putting work. I know this isn’t relevant, but I really do love Knights. And I wish we had some options to make them more unique or some Chaos Artefacts. I made this for my KDK force scrapping my Lord of Skulls because he is an overcost piece of rubbish. And my friend is kind enough to allow a custom artefact with the tripple defiler claw arm. Str: 10, Ap: 2, Precision Strikes, Hurl, (If it removes a model from play. IWND gets +1 that turn.)

          • Joshua Nathaniel Bergeson

            (Be kind haha. The paint badly needs touching up.)

          • ZeeLobby

            Haha. Nice!

          • Andreas Noche

            In all honesty: If you go to a tournament and get the feels because the opponent does what he is supposed to do…maybe this playstyle is not for him? I make no distinction, to each his own…casual – competitive…all fine. But tournaments can be brutal and should be. Otherwise you could meet to a 2-day gaming group. Would be fine by me. It´s just an enviroment you like or you don´t. Demanding this to change, just so you fit…feels very,very wrong

            By the way: This is what I meant with the hordes argument the other day. Don´t put too many eggs in one basket.

          • ZeeLobby

            The point is more-so that it doesn’t HAVE to be like this. Competition doesn’t mean “remove everything turn one”. There are plenty of competitive games that last through all the available rounds, and stay close. It was just a wakeup call for him that GW really didn’t care whether he gets a chance to play his unit competitively or not.

          • Andreas Noche

            Even in the days of 3ed, we could make rounds after the setup and tell who would most likely win or loose. Not just by the list mind you, but by the way the placed their models. As Ali once said (or at least, it´s attributed): The fight is won or lost long before we even meet.

            And I feel no need to believe, that a system ,where a experienced player can not defeat a beginner within the shortest amount of time, is “balanced” in any meaningful way.

          • ZeeLobby

            Alright, well you’ll just have to take my word. He is an experienced tournament player, 15+ years under his belt, in multiple systems. When it comes down to it, auto-removal of a unit, with minimal interaction, and no concern for placement/cover (which D ignores), is just a BAD game mechanic. It’s just bad. D is in no way a good thing. It just isn’t, it’s a bad response, to an already bad situation. It wasn’t poor play, or a bad matchup. His opponent just rolled a 6, and whoop, there goes the model. That’s all there is to it. There’s not like some rubik’s cube of complexity…

          • Andreas Noche

            I understand that. I know how it works. I do not understand, why you bring a model, which can be subjected to these rules and which is expensive in every regard, if you already know about this situation? Why waste 200+ points?

          • ZeeLobby

            Because knights still are very good units, and honestly, for some armies, are required for competitive play (CSM will hopefully benefit from them). So if you want to play, with certain armies, you sometimes have to. Then you just gotta rely on the luck of the draw. But then when 50% of the field is D-weapon toting Eldar, there’s little you can do to first turn lucky rolls.

            Listen, I can appreciate the fact that you have no issue buying the latest toys to be the most competitive player you can be, but for some players, who’d like to still play competitively, it’s just not an option. And it’d be nice, if their latest purchase, wasn’t invalidated off the bat.

            I’m sorry, but in no way does the inclusion of D somehow reflect some great game design process that grew from a desire to emulate Infinity. That’s the whole point of this discussion, but if you think that’s true, you’re giving GW WAY too much credit.

          • Andreas Noche

            I understand where you coming from. Yet I simply don´t believe anyone NEEDS a knight. And that´s what I mean, when talking about adapting. Maybe I´ll get my old 4th edition csm army out and give it a try these days. No lash, only melta spam. Just to see what happens.

          • ZeeLobby

            NEED might have been too strong. But competitively knights are still extremely popular. And for armies outside of Eldar/Tau, sometimes the only answer to a knight is a knight. So it’s a pretty common thing. Some TOs from the last GT i went to actually tracked SH/GMC casualties, and many times the player who went first, won the game when paired up. I mean that’s just bad game design. It’s either that, or all terrain just needs to start being knight-sized LoS blocking across the table…

          • Andreas Noche

            Yes, indeed. Things would have to change. But I just noticed: Deep down, I don´t care. It´s the same arguments, word by word for 13 years. Every year the sky was falling until some savant showed how to deal with things. Every year invalidated armies, powercreep etc etc. I´ve been around, I´ve seen it all. Good players just got better, everyone else…not. Same old, same old. GW is the same cage of monkeys it has always been. Maybe I´m just jaded.

          • ZeeLobby

            Haha, maybe. Thing is, things have changed over those 13 years. I knew some GW staff, and the way things operated before it’s rough patch was very different then the way things are today. Things were playtested, even if not overly balanced. They did focus on making a game that played well as well as looked good. Etc.

            Then GW high-ups forced many of the game designers and original staff to leave the company, and replaced the end-goal of creating a fun game with maximizing profits. Sure throughout it’s history it’s been striving for profits, as all businesses do, but the current state of, lets throw 50 things at the board, see what sells, and double up on those, hasn’t always been the case with GW. It was in a very different state 10 years ago than it is today.

            So maybe I just haven’t reached my jaded point yet, lol. But to say things have been the same for X years, just isn’t true. Only recently have things become completely umanagable with 6th/7th edition (much the way 8th made things unmanageable for WFB). You throw fliers, FMC, SH, GMC, D-weapons, etc. into the pot, and you just end up with a mess. Fantasy got horde units, and similar to D-weapons, spells that removed entire armies based on luck. Then they throw their arms up wondering what happened, when it’s been clearly visible the whole time.

            Release rules at the same time. PLAYTEST them to make sure the experience is fun for any faction (even if not completely balanced). Remove negative play experiences and purely luck based tactics. Clarify rules and answer questions concerning them. And boom, good game again (obviously more difficult, but any steps towards this would be awesome).

          • Andreas Noche

            Do you remember the 4th CSM Dex? The lash one? They told us, they didn´t think anyone would take 2 of those.
            The first 3.ed CSM Dex saw, in his first print, the prince having ranged attacks and a BS of 0. Have you ever heard of assault swarm or tank company? Do you know the infero gryphon? The first-turn-assault BA of the 3.edition? Did you ever played one game against minmax Alaitoc 3ed craftworld? Most of these things were approved by Mr.Chamber himself, who had a happy go lucky attitude.

            Most of your points are valid, yet old as the game itself. Anyway, I might pop in from time to time and will still read eagerly, but for now I say: Farewell, sir.

          • ZeeLobby

            The difference is that I beat dual lash, with multiple armies. Yes it was tough as nails, and I was nowhere near 50/50 wins vs it. But I have yet to beat the latest Eldar book, when it’s built in any competitive way, with several of the factions I play. And I consider myself, and my regular Eldar opponent, seasoned tournament vets.

          • Andreas Noche

            I give you this: While the topic itself is dead for me, the challenge is interesting. Which factions, what can you choose from, between which extremes do the eldar go? Which missions are played?

          • ZeeLobby

            It’s more like find me an Ork list and tournament scenario that beats a combo of WKs, Scatbikes and warp spiders.

          • Andreas Noche

            I´ll look into it, as soon as I´m home.

          • ZeeLobby

            K, haha. Something like this dilemma has never happened to me in 40K before 6th edition. There may have been very powerful lists and armies, but there were scenarios where you can make it work. And a lot of it came down to getting good positioning early, and outlasting your opponent. Problem is Eldar remove most armies from the table by turn 2/3.

            But I beat both dual-lash and nob bikers with my SM bike list (this was pre-popularity, so no grav) and my friend repeatedly beat them with daemons, who were not considered all that competitive back then. It’d usually come down to some lucky rolls late game. Most recent games I’ve played never make it late game with anything significant enough to turn the tide.

          • Andreas Noche

            From the top of my head (and if the online sheet doesn´t lie).

            Cad: , naked but with Trukk/Rokkit
            Fill with single Buggys/rokkit and Lootas+Trukk/Rokkit. Take new Cad. Repeat 3 times.

            9 Buggies, 15 trukks, 45 Lootas, 60 boys. You get the idea.

          • Joshua Nathaniel Bergeson

            You have points as I am skeptical of everything that GW does. However you are actually half-wrong on this one. Those Deathstars became statistically impossible to kill. So D solved that, and because of it, forced people to buy those superheavies and other models. It was completely a money-making decision, but it also had legit balancing reasons as well. People didn’t need to buy expensive armies before because they could just buy a bike squad and some rune priests plus a few models here and there, and have a nigh-unbeatable force. Now they have no choice but to switch things up. I’m not saying its balanced now, but it was utterly broken before the flood of D.

          • ZeeLobby

            True. I mean a lot of deathstar removal was thanks to ITC removing 2+ re-rollable saves as a possibility, at least here in the US. The fact that some armies still have no way to deal with deathstars means that it’d still be a viable tactic. But I guess they fixed that by making Eldar so OP that you’ll see them every other round regardless.

      • Dan Wilson

        Forgefiend are for anti air really.

        • Joshua Nathaniel Bergeson

          They are awful at it. Ectoplas cannons are too short range against ground targets and I’ve literally Get’s Hotted every hull point off them running that way. And my bud has a Storm Raven and two Storm Talons that rip Fiends to shreds. Snap shots are not reliable enough even with eight shots. Besides getting lucky, its a waste of firepower.

        • Zack Seiders

          unless the forgefiend has skyfire (last I checked they do not) they are better off shooting ground units. You want anti air, go to khorne daemonkin and get the bloodstorm. strength 8 vector striking on helldrakes make ALOT of difference. Also pick up some soulgrinders (their guns are strength 7 and hit on 4’s but it still skyfire, plus soulgrinders are av 13 “meaning they laugh at strength 7-8 but get uneasy at strength 9 (4’s to glance but anything higher is bad times instant he fails invuln “5+”)

          • Dan Wilson

            Unfortunately helldrakes aren’t in keeping with the aesthetic/fluff of my army and soulgrinders are utterly horrible looking models.

          • Zack Seiders

            The horrible looking part is up to opinion (dropped my soulgrinder a couple times but still looks good) and again strength 7 vs strength 8 in terms of vector striking makes an actual difference with most imperium fliers being av 12 (smaller marine flier being av 11). That and with khorne daemonkin the bloodletters are VERY good at making sure the turkey arrives when you want it to. “those little guys even make warptalons more useful in you know deepstriking and getting blind off”

      • Koonitz

        I fail to see how grav is the be-all-end-all against Imperial/Renegade Knights. Assuming the shield is NOT in arc, it takes a total of 9 grav shots to cause a single hull point (note the immobilized result is ignored by the Knight due to being a super-heavy). With shield in arc, it’ll take 18. Amps will decrease the number marginally. That’s EIGHTEEN SHOTS. A 3-man CentDev squad only puts out 15. A full 5-man command squad with grav guns on bikes only puts out 18. That’s a lot of points to strip 1 HP off a 6 HP Knight.

        Grav is almost useless against a super-heavy walker like a Knight. Since you say it’s removed from the board by grav, I can only assume grav is the only weapon used against it (not supported by more appropriate weapons like meltas and lascannons) and the enemy spammed grav so much that nearly their entire army consists of it. As such, you’ve used 350-400 points to render the rest of your army immune to grav for at least a turn, if not two. Take advantage of that.

        I’ve had my Knights die to enemy armies consisting of zero grav in a turn or two before they can even charge. Knights die when an entire army shoots at them, as does almost everything else in this game barring the extra large Forge World super-heavies/gargantuans. They are, surprising to some, not as survivable as a Reaver titan.

        However, almost every time my Knight does get focus fired and destroyed, the rest of my army was able to outmaneuver the enemy, gain tactical supremacy (very important in a maelstrom mission) and were able to dismantle my opponent’s key players, allowing me to gain victory through maelstrom points. The only time that wasn’t the case was against Necron decurions which, Knight or no, I just couldn’t do enough damage to matter.

        • Joshua Nathaniel Bergeson

          I don’t get where you get all those shots from. Every single shot has the potential to take a hull point. And they have six, not nine. Not sure where you got that unless you mean Lord of Skulls? I am fully aware strategies involving Knights. You are a space marine player however, and as such have access to much more powerful formations, and more versatile units to take advantage of that strategy. Your assumption that I am just a know-nothing player who is apparently horrible at strategy is obvious. We do not have drop pods. We do not have Storm Ravens or Storm Talons as fire support. Nor Thunderfire cannons, allied chapter-unique formations, or any of the overpowered psychic abilities you have. We can’t put that kind of pressure on the enemy. The idea that we just aren’t utilizing our armies correctly is a joke coming from someone who has never had to actually play the CSM army.

          • Andreas Noche

            Without amp it´s 1 of 6 hits, arc doubles. Since SM hit on 3+ you need 9 shots to hit 6 times. But that´s mathhammer and is true only in the 10.000th. Take it as a guide, not law.

          • Zack Seiders

            grav weapons shutting down maulerfiends I can get. But shutting down an imperial knight you need to flat out kill it (insert suicide melta squad here)

          • Koonitz

            I was not telling you your Chaos army is as balanced as my Astartes army. It’s not. I’m telling you that grav is not the be-all-end-all Knight killer that you seem to want to tell everyone it is.

            The numbers I used are the statistical likelihood of causing a hull point to a Knight. A grav gun in the hands of an Astartes has a 2/3 chance of hitting, then a 1/6 chance of causing a hull point of damage. Therefore 9 shots causes 6 hits, causes 1 hull point. Hence 9 shots. With the 4+ Ion shield in arc, half of those damaging shots are saved, which means you must double your number of shots to cause damage (18 shots causes 12 hits, 2 hull points, 1 unsaved hull point). These numbers adjust downwards slightly with a gravamp (such as with CentDevs).

            18 grav shots total to cause a single hull point. A 5-man Command squad on bikes (for stable platform) with gravguns gets 3 shots each times 5 for a total of 18 shots. An entire command squad will, without outside influences affecting their rolling (such as doctrines, prescience, etc), statistically cause a single hull point. Add in the captain bodyguard so they don’t just get shot off the board in a turn and you’re at quite the investment for one hull point.

            I’m aware that statistics will not always show the exact results. You’re just as likely to cause 2 or more hull points as you are to cause zero hull points. However, for reliable results, you’re looking at nearly an entire army’s worth of gravguns to destroy a Knight in a single turn without relying on the fickle mistress, “Luck”.

            Once again, use that to your advantage. There are various ways to manipulate the terms to your advantage using a Knight. If you know he’s going to swarm the Knight with grav weapons, make him deploy first. Yes, that means he’s most likely going to get first turn, but then you can deploy your Knight to counter his grav deployment (usually far away with lots of ranged weapons). Alternatively, deploy first and don’t put your Knight front and center. Potentially even hold him in reserve.

            Control the situation.

            And last, but not least, I have a local friend that loves to complain about Chaos in the same way you do. So much so that I can’t even be excited about the cool things I get without him going off. In fact, I recently finished a Razorback that I converted the turret into a LasPlas turret. I was showing it off as I was quite happy with it. Just showing him the picture caused him to go off on a half hour rant about how he wished he had all the things I have.

            I’ll give you the same suggestion I gave him. Just use the Space Marine Codex already. Take your Chaos models and build a list using them from Codex: Space Marines. Now you have all the toys and formations I have while you continue to use the models you enjoy (I’m assuming you do enjoy the models, instead of just the rules or the game). This also gives you a chance to wait out the time it may take to get a new Chaos codex while also giving you an option if you find that the potential codex isn’t up to your standards.

          • Joshua Nathaniel Bergeson

            Haha Ok I understand “Just stop complaining and play Space Marines already.” What a silly concept. I don’t WANT to play Space Marines. I don’t like Space Marines. I was drawn to Chaos in the first place because of its versatility, the uniqueness of its build at the time, and the model design as well. I liked that everything had many options and were very flexible. I don’t want the stuff you have. I want my army to have its own unique flavor as well. Your entire argument stands solely on the assumption that I just want everything the Space Marines have. CSM players want cool chaos psychic powers, not Space Marine powers. We want units that reflect CHAOS, not Astartes. And your entire argument about Knight tactics is irrelevant….DROP PODS. Make him deploy first? What? What does that have to do with anything? Since Drop Pods are fast attack now and not dedicated transports, all he has to do is send down one cheap command squad loaded with melta guns and/or grav cents and/or C.Melta Stern and the walker is not a threat anymore. And guess what? I can’t avoid it save bubble-wrapping which inherently limits my army deployment, and purchasing right off the bat. Your entire strategy somehow magically forgot about Drop Pods coming down on turn one.

          • Koonitz

            Not at all. Once again, I’m focusing on your argument that “Knights are useless because GRAV!” (I paraphrase).

            You are so concerned that having the option of taking Knights means nothing because Grav weapons are grav weapons and will grav the grav right off the grav-darned planet. (Once again, paraphrasing).

            So, I focused my argument that if your Knight is useless because grav, it must be getting dominated because of grav. Which means the enemy must be focusing heavily on having grav in his army.

            I’m well aware of the various alternative options on dealing with Knights, trust me.

            Drop podding a command squad with grav is a bad idea, as now they’re down to 2 shots each at 9″ range. Sure, meltas will work, but, once again, you were telling me Knights won’t help balance your army because of GRAVITY-GRAV-GRAV! (again, paraphrasing)

            Knights aren’t an OP auto-win button. As a man who owns 5 (including 3 Cerastus Knights from Forge World), I know their limitations. Grav isn’t one of them.

          • Joshua Nathaniel Bergeson

            Fair enough. No he does not solely use Grav. But it is a massive part of the problem. It is so cheap for its effectiveness, that he can use it liberally, and with the minor assistance of various Lascannons and Meltas, those superheavies leave the game quickly. While still having versatility to deal with everything else. (However. I literally have lost a Knight to one round of fire from his Grav Cents. So I don’t take Mathhammer quite so literally as you may. It has failed me more occasions than it worked.) Apologies for exaggeration. However I maintain that Grav exacerbated the issue. To take out that Knight before Grav, he had to sacrifice a whole melta command squad, and likely a Stern Guard squad as well, which I felt was a worthwhile trade, as it didn’t pay off 100% of the time. Now that command squad with meltas combined with a bunch of Grav shots are an almost guarantee. And they do extremely hurt the rest of the army transports and Daemon Engines, which apparently GW thought would be the game changer I guess. I love Daemon Engines, but we need more, or we need more options on the ones we have.

          • Koonitz

            Now that I agree with. Grav is WAY too powerful for its price with how easy it is to bypass their only weakness (salvo). It’s why I rarely, if ever, use them.

            I’ve also lost an unscratched venerable dreadnought to a unit of 6 Necron Warriors on overwatch (12 shots, 4 hits, 4 6’s to glance). I’m also well aware how fickle the dice gods are.

            However, as a man with a mathematical and statistical background, I find ‘mathhammer’ is a good way to help me guide my decisions. As Andreas Noche stated, it’s a guide, not law.

            It’s just as possible that two gravguns alone can destroy a Knight in a single volley. It’s just not as likely, because of statistics.

  • Painjunky

    No Rob.
    They are definitely NOT good.
    We have been over this already.
    They are mediocre at best.
    Please try to keep up.

    • nurglitch

      Perhaps Rob disagrees with your assessment?

      • benn grimm

        Article seems to indicate he agrees tbh. Hard to tell what with all the nonsense, but that seems to be the gist.

    • Mário Martins

      Soo bad :/
      Useless work, the supplement is so bad …. I doubt someone buy that crap

      • WellSpokenMan

        GW made it, so people will buy it. I wonder sometimes if Apple is jealous of GW’s customer loyalty.

      • Zack Seiders

        As bad as orks have gotten in 7th edition, Waagh ghazghul (latest one) Is the better book.

    • eehaze

      Melee-focused armies without a way to get into melee fall well short of Mediocre.

  • Joshua Nathaniel Bergeson

    No these books are a joke. Just another flimsy, shallow, and lackluster attempt by GW to shut us chaos players up.

    • Andreas Noche

      I find it hard to believe, that anybody still assumes chaos player would ever stop complaining. More a lackluster attempt to keep at least some material up to date, I think.

      • Shiwan8

        We’ll never know unless GW releases a proper CSM codex.

        What is this “chaos” you speak of?

        • Andreas Noche

          A quote from the previous post. Also one of the questions, the designer need to answer to themselves before writing a new book.

          I mean, it´s one of the main problems (apart from the power creep) of the dex we have. It is named “Chaos Space Marines”, yet includes a little bit of “Space Marine Chaos Renegades (now with extra less content)”, “Dark Admech (no way to play that pure)”, “Chaos Cults (harhar)”, “Chaos Space Marine Legions (that is, characters and a nod here and there)”.If I had a proper Thousand Sons book, even a weak one, that would please me to no end. If I had Dark Mechanicus, I´d do the happy dance. It´s not meant to be, right now.

          • Joshua Nathaniel Bergeson

            Yes. This is something myself and the guy I play with discuss all the time. They try to stuff too much into one codex, which ultimately waters it all down. Space Marines have multiple codexes to get all their different angles addressed. They really do need a codex for each Mark that can include rules for the Daemonkin, a book for Dark Mech, a book for Chaos Undivided, and a book for Chaos Renegades. But that would require up to date models, rules, new psychic powers, and far more extensive work than GW would ever be willing to put into it. Far cheaper to give all their best ideas to Astartes and feed us garbage.

          • Andreas Noche

            “Far more work” Bah. A c&p job would do. Could even steal some chapter tactics. Honestly, who different from a berserker can a berserker in 2+ armor be? When BL was released, I thought they would choose this way. But nah.

          • ZeeLobby

            Yeah. It’s too bad. I don’t know if they’d consider spending even that amount of effort on them. They seem to be focused on pushing out more of whatever sells the most, to the detriment of the rest.

          • Andreas Noche

            I can imagine, they run it like this: Big thing – cash- promote big thing, until next big thing is ready (once or twice a year) – more cash – next big thing – repeat

            I´m tempted to say: Next codex (or the one after that) released gets a campaign book as well (both included, if it´s with the second one).

          • ZeeLobby

            I mean I thought Khorne Daemonkin was the beginning of this for CSM, but then they just seemed to give up on it :/.

          • Andreas Noche

            I know this feeling. But I also thought: Admech? Harleys? A new dawn. Then: AoS and silence for 40k (Tau and a campaign no one asked for. Not bad, mind you, but also no priority). This year? You like Cults? You like Deathwatch? Tease…then square one again.

          • ZeeLobby

            What it tells me is that they’ve had all of this planned and made for a while, and in an effort to boost sales, they’re just releasing it all as soon as it’s ready to leave the door. There is no plan/schedule that they’re necessarily adhering to. They’re just trying to push product as fast as possible to boost their yearly sales.

            There was probably a plan to release more daemonkin books, but as the Khorne one was the only one finished, they decided to push through the rest of their products instead. My hope is that they return back to those lines, and flesh them out, once they’re done shoveling. It’s crazy to think that AoS has the most stable release schedule now, lol.

          • Andreas Noche

            I sure hope, they don´t. Otherwise we´ll have books of different power AGAIN. Make it in one go I say.

          • ZeeLobby

            I mean they’d have to release all army rules at once, with a new edition. And they’ll never do this. They rely on people starting armies throughout the year. They rely on power creep to keep people purchasing throughout the year. If the game required smaller forces, they could get away with it (infinity, x-wing, warma, etc.) because the cost would not prevent people from starting multiple factions after the initial release through the year, but they thrive on the build-up of excitement, and milking each release, always one-upping the rules, to get people to shell out more than they probably should, haha.

            There are a lot of Apple parallels that can be drawn here.

          • Andreas Noche

            I´d rather have them follow PPs release police, be c´est la vie. However: From a competitve gamers perspective X-Wing is expensive like nothing else out there. There is no equal to the X-wing ripoff.

          • ZeeLobby

            I mean I agree, from the competitive perspective. For fun play it doesn’t have to be though. Fun playing 40K and purchasing multiple armies is still REALLY expensive. Competition just makes it more so. But yeah, I’d be behind a PP release schedule. Completely.

          • Joshua Nathaniel Bergeson

            They could but that would be incredibly disappointing. There is so much potential in this codex that they arbitrarily choose not to tap. Have you read the BS psychic powers they added to Astartes? They can’t give us some new powers? I really don’t see 2+ armored Berserkers as solving anything. It would help them survive sure, but Chaos needs A LOT more than that. Psychic powers, Decurion-style formations, Legion Tactics, etc….

          • Andreas Noche

            Nah, you´re mixing: Power creep is one thing. Every army suffers at one time or the other (well, maybe no more). It can´t be avoided, as GW is not interested/incompetent/whatever. Fluff is the other one. This could be helped easily. Underwhelming? Yes, but it´s a start and better than nothing. And with 2+ I mean WE terminators of course.

          • Drasek

            Then you’ll have people complain that they have to pay more money for more books when it should all be in one book.

          • Joshua Nathaniel Bergeson

            I don’t care if people complain about that. At that point they are just being pissy. If we get the versatility/balance we need, then that’s that. You can’t satisfy everyone, but is that a reason to not satisfy ANYONE?

          • Drasek

            I personally really enjoy having a Space Wolf Codex and a Space Marine Codex. It allows the different chapters to be fleshed out more. I’ve been toying with the idea of starting a Chaos Marine army but I’m waiting to see what happens with their codex. Specifically, I’d like to start a Thousand Sons army to counter my Space Wolves.

          • Joshua Nathaniel Bergeson

            Oh I am aware. I agree, I would also love to have multiple codexes with different playstyles. That was my whole point. Every CSM player WANTS to see Legion supplements on top of a new Codex, at least continue with the Daemonkin, however that leaves out so much.

          • Kevin Buesse

            The problem is that GW is pretty bankrupt in the Ideas department. They’ve had to go back to the well of 2nd and 3rd ed to dig up new and interesting ideas.

            Knights and other old epic scale things are the best ideas they can muster. Also someone must be championing the idea of just pushing on with the 4th ed CSM dex and doing revisions.

            Chaos needs them to go back to 3.5 do a top down points rethink on several things, and then mix in the best ideas from the current crop of books.

            Setting aside formations which IMO are a decent idea taken to terrible extremes. A simple system like Chapter tactics makes the various marine flavors run markedly (hehe) different. Hell even BA and DA as they stand could be rolled into regular marines books other than fluff there aren’t enough mechanical differences to justify a separate book.

            So why can’t a BASE CSM pointed appropriately ie about 10 pts stand in as our just fallen renegade.

            We then can apply Lineage Traits to him to make him into something more in the flavor we want.

            Blood of XX: “descended from the line of Primarch X models with this trait have…” apply fluffy set of rules Fear and use jump packs twice a turn if night lords for example.

            Easy peasy you get some legion traits, and you can then step it up and say Path of the Hydra for those who might not be leggionaries originally from said unit, but after going renegade joined up or were co-opted into an affiliated warband. Path of the Haunter unit has Fear

            Similarly you can add layers by then adding varying levels of dedication to various Gods. Disciple or Initiate. Have Marks like +1 attack be the initiate level, and then things like +1Ws +1 attack and rage be the step up. It allows you to create mix an match warbands with back story easily.

            Then certain cult units have their entry with so you don’t have to do the math and maybe can have a few things like access to special armory items.

            Then kick out some new dual pack cult kits that give us the cult marines we know and love, as well as a variant version. Noise marines with sonic weapons or CC variants that use whips and the like.

            Rhubric Marines and variant Sorcerous Cabal builds.

            Berzerkers and some variant that focuses not purely on volume of attacks but quality attacks. IE rending or instant death on a 6 with an even higher WS.

            Plague Marines durable tough and slow, and a variant that showcases the joy of bestowing nurgle’s blessings to all. Something less durable but with Stealth Shrouded and inflitrate that uses short range explosives that are poisonous and has an aura like Nurgle’s Rot.

            It’s not hard to create the thing most players want, Freedom and variety.

            Doing it right and pulling themselves out of a self inflicted tail spin when it comes to CSM is much harder.

            I’d also work to get a something more like the Ghal Vor’bak as possessed. Chosen need to see more use than just Special weapons caddies, but it’s the same problem with any veteran that doesn’t just have a single obvious utility like Stern guard or Vanguard. See DA vets, little love in the community from what I can see.

          • Shiwan8

            Sure. Then again loads of those could be ansvered by just making CSM BB with their most common allies (AM, AdMech, what ever else) and making a legion codex with “renegade tactics” table with 2-3 traits that can be selected for a custom warband and the actual rules for legions. For example.

        • Zack Seiders

          Closest thing we have to a good csm list involves khorne daemonkin (the units that come from the csm’s that are worth your time are limited to anything with the words, suicide squad, fast as hell or hits hard every other good unit in khorne daemonkin are from the chaos daemons for a good reason.

          • Shiwan8

            That’s not close.

          • Zack Seiders

            Care to explain? I already stated that that in regards to khorne daemonkin that most of the csm a kd player will use are limited to anything that can get into the enemies face by turn 2. Everything else in regards to csm that you use in khorne daemonkin are at best guarding an objective or at worst babysitting an objective then dying. (bare mininum of chaos space marine units used in a khorne daemonkin is juggerlord, bikers and maybe spawn for cheap bloodtithe)

          • Shiwan8

            I agree that it’s the closest we can get to now but it’s really nowhere near the actual thing.

          • Zack Seiders

            I get it now, the actual csm list would have/ SHOULD have used the actual chaos space marines, rather than scrapping of cultist (which are even more useless outside of khorne daemonkin/ typhus list “most special character list tend to be boring, rather use the characters I went out of the way to make … in regards to khorne daemonkin the only 3 units i actually named myself is the bloodforged prince, the soulgrinder and maulerfiend). Again the crimson slaughter/ black legion books has done NOTHING to fix the problems the marines have (neither has khorne daemonkin but blood tithe’s tend to turn battles once enough units have died “feel no pain is my security blanket”)

      • Nathaniel Wright

        Up to date… If it were the start of 7th when the abortion codecies were released.

        • Andreas Noche

          I don´t understand?

          • Nathaniel Wright

            The abortions: Dark Eldar, Orks, Blood Angels, Grey Knights, and IG. Back before they thought ‘hmm, you know what would be cool? If we had formations… within formations! and they’d be awesome!’

            The ones that had things removed. The ones that were pushed out before Necrons and their ‘new’ format. The premature codecies. The ones that are perfectly in line with what the Black Legion and Crimson Slaughter supplements have in them.

          • Andreas Noche

            You remind me of the guy who used to say “those f***ers shoot at these g**lords in their ****** cover”. Even the guys who couldn´t recall the profile of a space marine didn´t take him serious.

            And yes, I don´t understand GW again. Why not test a few ideas? Why update the supps once a new csm dex comes out? Or risk dropping them? We´ll never know.

          • Nathaniel Wright

            Admittedly, I am pretty salty about the entire situation. Out of the six armies I own, one is unplayable due to being entirely too powerful (eldar), four have been subjected to half-assed updates (Sisters, Dark Eldar, CSM, Orks) and the last one is used in the occasional apocalypse game (Knights).

          • Andreas Noche

            Sisters? A little salty? I´d even accept a full amok. I assume, you don´t have the collection to tone the eldar down and play mostly casual? Sorry to hear.

          • Nathaniel Wright

            I probably could, but I bought in to the Aspect Host Hype pretty hard. I enjoy the concept of Eldar Power Rangers going out and doing stuff. I enjoy vengeful elf ghosts doing things.

            I don’t enjoy being looked at like a cretin for playing the army even before the game starts.

          • Andreas Noche

            Most people can´t choose, but it would seem your gaming group includes only fine gents, with good manners, wit and a fine understanding of how GW handles the game and what a local group can do, to make it a little more forgiving, With folks like those, who needs enemys?

          • Nathaniel Wright

            They’re definitely not the worst people. There’s a couple bad eggs, but most of them are pleasant to be around, it’s true. My gripes are, ultimately, with an update system that needs a dose of Ritalin.

          • Andreas Noche

            I think, I´m just getting to old for this.

          • Andreas Noche

            Come to think of it: You do not happen to play your best “Apocalypse! Now!” List against the guy who wanted to take a walk with his Orks, do you?

          • Nathaniel Wright

            Nahhh, Orks are one of those armies I bend over backwards to get a good game in with, I never have more fun than I do with someone that plays orks.

          • Andreas Noche

            Ahm, that was more an example. I mean, your eldar list is fun and nice, yes? Like Wraithlord or Shining Spears nice….

          • Nathaniel Wright

            Like I said, Eldar Power Rangers. Units of Dire Avengers, units of Dark Reapers and Fire Dragons, etc. I played around with the wraith units, but they’ve been shelved for years. I have Wraithknights, but I have only used them in Apocalypse games, even in 6th edition.

    • nurglitch

      Would you like some cheese with your whine?

      • Joshua Nathaniel Bergeson

        Troll. Not even worth wasting my time.

      • JN7

        Would you like some reins to go with your high horse?

      • Hunlow

        Yeah ignore this troll that doesn’t even play Chaos.

        • nurglitch

          Night Lords, thank you very much.

          • Hunlow

            Sorry to sound skeptical but you’ve already said you haven’t purchased any actual Chaos models and that your Night Lords are converted from Space Marines so is it a 30K army?

          • nurglitch

            No, it’s 40k.

          • nurglitch

            I’ll elaborate. Started at the end of 4th edition as a dual SM/CSM army my CSM bifurcated into loyalist and renegade factions based on helmet type as they grew over a demi-company in size. The loyalists had mkVI helms and the renegades had berzerker helmets, and CSM champion helmets. Originally intended to be World Eaters and Blood Angels, the beakies were painted first and then destroyed attempting to strip paint with pinesol.

          • nurglitch

            To continue the story, the models that eventually were the sole members of my SM/CSM force eventually needed painting and I had become disillusioned with modern pre-ADB fluff on WE. Reading the NL trilogy I fell in love with the notion of the selfish, morale-deficient and resource spare warbands sailing ever deeper into corruption and madness. To me the current codex really represents that. The Night Lord Cyrion sums it up when the Shattered Aquila is planning to jack the Echo of Damnation, that they tend to lose fair fights. So, of course, they don’t fight fair.

          • Hunlow

            Clearly we both like CSM and although we both have very different views of how the army should work wouldn’t it be in our best interest to work together and argue that the current 40K CSM books and supplements are not comparable to SM, Eldar, Necrons and Tau and try to work towards making them better? There is no possible way that CSM, Tyranids, DE and even Orks ares even close to the previously mentioned factions and you just seem oblivious. In fact it seems you argue against doing something to change this and it just blows my mind as to why you would do such a thing? If you like and support CSM then why are you not advocating for the currently oldest codex to get a revamp or at least some love akin to what the Space Marines are receiving?

          • Hunlow

            I seriously want to shake you like a baby.

          • nurglitch

            Because I like the CSM in the current CSM book. I enjoyed the last CSM codex as well, and I hope any additions will follow the pattern laid out. The Crimson Slaughter and Black Legion supplements seem like a great way to expand on the material in the 6th edition codex. I’m happy to see where GW takes us.

            Incidentally I play Tyranids and Orks as well. I’m perfectly happy with their performance in 7th edition Maelstrom of War missions, but I think that’s because Maelstrom of War allows you to trade material for scoring points. I can see why people would have issues with them in Eternal War and ITC missions, but frankly it’s the design of those missions that suck rather than the armies involved.

          • Hunlow

            Are you serious? You are telling me that a 4 year old codex with massive leadership and points issues is currently acceptable in the current meta, without question, and comparable to the recent Angels of Death release? And you are happy? Did you also attend Trump University and invest in Enron?

  • Dandoz Censura

    Rob really just look again on the chosen of Abaddon if you have a group of a chaos lord and chosen/terminators together they are fearless as long as the chaos lord is alive and he can´t move out from the group is this good? Btw I also spend veteran of the long war on every single chosen and lord just to get this non existant bonus becouse fearless don´t stack.

    • JP

      That formation is garbage. Redundant garbage even. Chaos Lords give their Fearless to a unit they join anyway. Why on earth would anyone use a formation that doesn’t let the lord leave? There is literally no point to the formation. At ALL.

      • krisbrowne42

        If you wanted to SuperFriend them to a Daemon force, so you could deep-strike in some shooting, maybe? Give a priority target to take some fire off your assault units moving in? It’s a canned formation with no troop requirement and gives the lord/sorc a free Gift to boot.

  • LordKrungharr

    If one could take relics from all three books of CSM, CS, and BL, that would be super awesome. But a juggerlord with Daemonheart and axe of blind fury is still pretty awesome. Skull of Krungharr would be too amazing.

  • euansmith

    No, they are not good. In fact they are very, very, naughty boys!

    • Andreas Noche

      Now you made it awkward.

      • ZeeLobby

        It’s what euansmith does best :D.

    • Commissar Molotov

      You can’t have “slaughter” without “laughter.”

  • High-quality turd polish, now in book form!

  • Seth

    More Daemonkins please!

    • krisbrowne42

      No. Well, not quite.

      Update the core codex, then do Daemonkins via campaigns… The Daemons are pretty solid across the board, when balanced with the things they lack (mostly, guns). The CSM units need more adjustment, but they pinned some of them down by making the KDK book a standalone instead of a formation/detachment update. If they update the ‘dex first, and do campaigns to bring “daemonkin” formations then they don’t have to worry about what later updates do to the core units.

      • Seth

        I can see that working. I started playing CSM because warp twisted Astartes and daemon engines, not because cultist swarms and spawn herds.

    • Shiwan8

      Why do you want more mono deity chaos daemon books with old CSM as tax units?

      • Seth

        Because that was five hours ago, and after putting that post up I debated with a friend about the best path for CSM and we both decided that it would be best to have one well designed CSM dex before anything else is considered.

        • Shiwan8

          That does not answer the question but ok….

          • Seth

            There is no need to have “old CSM tax units” the can have good high powered CSM that have free marks and a “anti-ATSKNF” supported by daemons.

            And to use CSM and daemons now you have to spend $100 of codex instead of of just $50 for the daemons you want and the CSM you want.

          • Shiwan8

            All that is true. At the moment more daemonkin would just mean more daemons.

            The present ally system pretty much makes sure that you need 100$ worth of material or more just to make a list.

  • ButtKrak

    These formations may become better if GW releases an updated CSM dex making all those units much better… probably wont be the case though

  • sethmo

    The fact that I can take 3-5 sorcerors and not pay a tax makes that the strongest formation in the book.

    And those of you crying “GRAV”, spawn have no armor save, and can easily get up to T6…..you can probably figure this out.

    With the FNP/zealot formation csm seem useful again as well. (And cheap without marks.)

    • Seth

      As a CSM player I want this to be true but I need to do some play testing fist.

    • Seth

      I still want a Tzeentch DK.