Editorial: 30k vs. 40k

WorldEatersAssaultSquadPre-Heresy

What if I were to tell you there is an amazing game out that blows 40k out of the water?

We all know the many problems with 40k in general… you constantly read about people complaining about the game. What if I were to tell you there is an amazing game out that blows 40k out of the water ? What if I were to tell you this game has been around for five years now. You may have guessed it – I am talking about 30k and the Horus Heresy !!! Let’s focus on being positive because if you’re receptive to the Horus Heresy or sometime better known as 30k there’s lots of things to be happy about if you play a Legion.

Heresy-veteransOh wow this looks really cool !!!

Alan Bligh is the chief developer for 30k and this man has an innate ability to write balanced absolutely fantastic rules for the legions that are also rich in background. I’d go so far to say if you like to play Space Marines or Chaos Space Marines then why waste your time playing 40k and deal with the cheese that is Eldar and Tau? I remember back in the days of third and fourth edition… You mostly saw Space Marines and CSM – the world of 40k was at a plateau that has long since been eclipsed. I’m sad to say and I’m sure many of you feel the same: 30k brings back the old aura plus more. The thing is it is not all about the power armor – you can play Admech, Astra Militarum, Chaos Daemons and other armies as well besides the Astartes.

Bell-of-Lost-Souls-Ultramarines-Article-by-Brent03Seriously It is Not All Marines, All the time !!!

One of the best attributes of 30k is that the game is built upon a foundation of a balanced system and EVERY legion is competitive! That’s right there are no bad or sub-optimal armies like 40K’s Blood Angels and Dark Eldar. Another great thing about 30k is these armies can be integrated into 40k but of course you’ll have to deal with Eldar and Tau if you do so. I have pretty much lost my desire to put lots of effort into building new 40k armies knowing how much more fun I’m having playing 30k now. I still have an army to play in 40k tournaments but that’s the only time I touch them now.

What is Wrong with 40k

40k as we know has been around for a while and is still ever expanding as Games Workshop continues to release new supplements. As of right now we do have 14 armies released. One thing wrong with what is missing is the variability of game play. 40k is known for net lists and spam – how boring in my opinion!!! On the other hand sure, 14 armies, but there are actually more. The Space Marine codex alone gives more variety. Supplements such as Militarum Tempestus and Legion of the Damned also gives more variability. Even Forge World with their IA books give even more chapters! If you include it all there are over 40 different published rule set armies and play styles – which in its own way is also part of the problem. That’s not even including the induction of formations into the fray.

The armies are as follows:

  • Adepta Sororitas
  • Astra Militarum (Death Korps of Kreig, Elysian Drop Troops)
  • Blood Angels (Lamenters)
  • Chaos Space Marines (Black Legion, Crimson Slaughter)
  • Chaos Daemons
  • Dark Eldar
  • Eldar (Iyanden)
  • Grey Knights
  • Imperial Knights
  • Inquisition
  • Militarum Tempestus
  • Officio Assassinorum
  • Necrons
  • Orks (Ghazghukull)
  • Space Marines (Iron Hands, Ultramarines, Imperial Fists, White Scars, Raven Guard, Salamanders, The    Red Scorpions, The Carcharodons, The Howling Griffons, Marines Errant, The Raptors, The Exorcists, The Mantis Warriors, The Executioners, The Angels Revenant, The Red Hunters, The Star Phantoms, The Minotaurs, The Sons of Medusa, The Novamarines, The Fire Hawks, The Astral Claws)
  • Space Wolves (Champions of Fenris)
  • Tau Empire (Farsight Enclave)
  • Tyranids

However everyone does know that there are balancing issues within the game itself and to play fluffy these days there just is not that much hope for some armies to make a fun and enjoyable environment. A good friend of mine who was an avid Tau player (his first army he picked up back in 4th edition) was recently telling me how they killed 40k for him. I won’t even touch on the eldar …

Now to 30k !!!

One word – PRIMARCHS !

ferrus-manus1

 

No really, The Horus Heresy, or 30k as it has been dubbed, was just released over five years ago. And already we have a rich system that is bringing itself to par with Warhammer 40k. Again, rich background, more amazing stories and probably the best models I’ve ever seen. Only two Legions left to go !!! This is what we have so far:

  • Emperor’s Children
  • Death Guard
  • World Eaters
  • Sons of Horus
  • Iron Warriors
  • Iron Hands
  • Raven Guard
  • Night Lords
  • Salamanders
  • Alpha Legion
  • Word Bearers
  • Imperial Fists
  • Adeptus Mechanicus
  • Solar Auxilla
  • Titan Legio

That’s just it for now. You can include these 40k armies into your gaming as they existed during the Heresy:

  • Orks (always fun to beat up on !!! )
  • Eldar
  • Dark Eldar

But we still have Thousand Sons and Space Wolves to look forward to probably later this year. Not only that but the possibility of assassins coming in and maybe Adeptus Custodes. There’s so much room for them to expand upon now.  The books for the Horus Heresy are amazing and I cannot recommend them enough.

So what separates 30k from 40k? Everything. This game literally has the perfect balance internally. The units are all the same, but guaranteed you will probably never see an all win list. I like to call this game rock-paper-scissors-lizard-spock from the variety of lists you can see on the table. Sure it might seem some units are over-costed, but they’re not. Besides, what’s better than power armor on power armor action? Blood and treachery? 30k provides, what I think, one of the most unique environments that ForgeWorld has to offer to gamers and hobbyists alike. Although it is more expensive than regular 40k to a point, it is broad. Every legion has its own Rite of War (as well as book Rite Of Wars for generic legions), much like that of Chapter Tactics for Space Marines, but way more in depth and adds so much to your list building. And, each legion also has its own special rules that bring its own uniqueness to the table. But what else is there? A brand new campaign system that we’ll be seeing in Book IV conquest is something we’ve all been dying for from GW for regular 40k, the difference is ForgeWorld is beating them to the punch. Force Organization Charts are also what makes this game what it is. There are multiple FoC’s to play from, each taking, removing, and playing around with the slots allotted to the gamer. One example is the Leviathan FoC that lets you bring 3 Lords of war and an allied detachment! Pretty strong and looks like it’d be fun to play with one day (When I get the money for a Reaver and two Warhounds).

In Closure

Honestly it’s up to the gamer in which system they choose, but I do support 30k to its fullest. The model’s are amazing, you can dual use the army if you decide to go for a legion and use it in regular 40k as counts as Space Marines (Or whatever army you want to use). Almost all the vehicles are also in IA2, and soon IA13 if you wish to go the power armored chaos route. If you have a local gaming group, I would definitely begin a whisper or two about it and see what everyone thinks. Even start up a group fund for house armies!

~Are you ready to step into Horus Heresy gaming?

++ BeakyCon 6 Dice ++

Return of the Wulfen

BeakyCon is an annual Warhammer 40k grand tournament held in Florida that I run. This is our sixth year and we will finally allow the public to purchase dice due to the high demand. In the past the dice were only available to those attending our grand tournament.

Every year the logo is chosen for one of the original Space Marine Legions. This year our dice are in honor of the Great Wolf and Primarch Leman Russ. Space Wolves have always been quite popular and now you can have your own gaming dice to match your Great Company. The Lost Company marks the 13th Great Company of this Chapter and has a place in the hearts of Space Wolf players all around the world.

If you would like to purchase your own dice now you can and these will go well with all you Space Wolf players out there ! Last year the theme was heresy era World Eaters which was very popular. These dice are great for gaming and are sure to turn some heads. There’s a little werewolf in everyone – AaaaaRoooo !!!

Here is the cost to order your own dice:

06 = $12

12 = $20

24 = $40

48 = $75

You can order more than 48 but they must be in multiples of 12 for orders over this amount.

Please make sure to add $5 for shipping.

NOTE:
Prices are US.

If you would like to place an order you can use PayPal. My account is as follows:

moodhoney@yahoo.com

Make sure to include the following information when placing an order:

1) Put BeakyCon 6 Dice in the subject line.
2) Make sure to specify how many dice you want.
3) Include your full name and shipping address including country if outside of the USA.

We will accept orders up until the end of May. The dice will ship the first week of July. Don’t miss out.

Any questions…

If you should have any questions feel free to reach me at the email address provided above. I’ll be glad to help you out.

  • HiveFleet Charybdis

    Hmmmmm
    I’ve played a fair bit of both
    Both can be just as spammy, net listing and cheesy.
    It’s all about who you play not the game
    Most 30k players I meet cheese to the max
    Most 40k players recognise the balance issues and make an agreement on the style of play before the game
    I’ve enjoyed both but 40k remains far better in my experience

    Maybe I’ve just been fortunate enough to find nature players who want to have fun though.

    • Inian

      A gentlemen’s agreement when making lists? That’s heresy!!!

      But I do agree with you here, it’s not difficult to get fun games if you avoid making lists to destroy your opponents.

      • Djbz

        The only real exception I can see to reasonable vs reasonable being fine is when playing chaos space marines against loyalist space marines (of any description)
        As loyalists do almost everything better and cheaper than chaos, even when they aren’t trying too

    • LordRao

      Thank you for posting this. This was precisely the breath of fesh air I needed after hearing about the supposed superiority of 30k from about a million posters online…

      • An_Enemy

        Except what he said is just anecdotal BS. How does that comfort your fragile ego again?

        30k is better than 40k. It started as a subjective statement, but it’s more and more objective every year. Simply because you have fewer ways to break the game.

        • LordRao

          Haha, love how you substitute one opinion for your own, both of which are equally anecdotal, AND try to be insulting. But maybe that’s just your schtick, judging from your meme.

    • Zingbaby

      Totally agree… 30K is still 40K, just with greater limitations.

      If you remove the jerk-lists like the Adepticon winner’s “super friends” BS, and play with reasonable folks (I realize this is impossibly for some) then 40K is just fine.

    • benn grimm

      Have to say I find it to be the opposite; as do most of the people I play with/speak to. 40k is a mess, 30k a decent effort. I meet up with the same guy I’ve been playing with since I was about 12 every couple of months; we used to play 40k pretty much exclusively, since 7th and HH we don’t even bother with it, just too much of a headache.

      • Arthfael

        40k is a mess, no objection here. But not a mess that a bit of sportsmanship and common sense cannot fix.

        • benn grimm

          I agree that a good attitude helps, definitely.

    • 6Cobra

      Yeah, this is something a lot of HH players gloss over. Many 30K players have it fixed in their mind that Heresy gaming is all about the narrative, played by don’t-care-who-wins pals indulging in what is basically some glorified role play. The best way to get flamed on a 30K blog is to post a thread with the word “competitive” in it. BUT…

      Most of the other threads on that blog will probably be army lists, which the same “narrative” gamers are tweaking with proverbial jewelers tools to make as efficient and powerful ie. competitive as possible. Castellax spam, Tyrant spam used to be all over the place.. lately many Heresy players are all trying to see how many phosphex-shell quad launchers they can possibly cram in their “narrative” lists.

      Show up to a Heresy event or many pickup games with a bunch of dismounted Tactical infantry, Rhinos, and such and prepare to get wiped off the table just as fast as any Eldar or Tau army could do it. The saving grace is that FW has been much better than GW-main about recognizing and changing the really overpowered units and combo’s; keeping them good, but no longer auto-include. But the not-as-narrative-as-we-think-we-are 30K players keep finding new ones.

  • Alistair Collins

    Yep – nothing like Bolter vs Power Armour. Again et al.

    • Valourousheart

      That was my thought… The author claims that 30k isn’t all space marines all the time… But when he lists out the available 30k armies 12 of the 15 are space marines.

      Now the author does give consent to face 30k marines against. 40k Eldar and DEldar because 30k marines have enough shenanigans that it should be a Gouda fight.

      But notice how he deals with the Tau issue… Just don’t play them cause it isn’t fluffy.

      I feel that the real issue here is that Tournaments have jaded the way we view the game. Most of the best tournament lists are really efficient at dealing with all of the 40k units that you are likely to see at a tournament. However all the 40k units you are likely to see at a tournament only accounts for about 15% of all of the available options in 40k.

      And all of those “best lists” have a hard counter, but it usually is comprised of units from that 85% which are usually unplayable in tournaments because of the tournament format.

      • 6Cobra

        The author is also leaving out a heap of 30K forces (was this article really written late last year or something?). Warp Cults, militia, etc. If you want a raggedy horde of humans 30K is also actually the game for you. He’s also kinda shortchanging the various playable factions of the Mechanicum, Knight Houses, and other variant lists.

      • James Regan

        Fantasy always had the hard counter in dwarves- being slow, hard to kill and arranged in one of the back corners, your typical dwarf army would certainly lose to an maxed out internet kill all list played by one of the country’s top players, but it might lose somewhere around the turn 8 mark in a 6 turn game.
        They countered everyone because dwarves had far more defensive power than offensive power- they weren’t actually overpowered, but sometimes it meant the game went about as well as if your opponent had brought only aegis defence lines to an old kill points only mission. Sure, he wasn’t going to do much to you, but what on earth are you going to do to him? stand near his unearthly collection of low walls?

      • Not playing tau is perfectly acceptable .

      • An_Enemy

        Why would he mention Tau?

    • Word Bearers in 3ok cause instant death on perils to eldar… Love to smoke them up

  • Charon

    Still not interested in Space Marines.

    • Gunther Clone C

      Right? They’re all walking piles of biomass anyway. 😛

    • Valourousheart

      Hmm…
      18 codexes in 40k, 5 are space marines.
      15 armies in 30k, 12 are space marines.

      I think I found out why it is balanced.

      And he is totally right about it not being marines vs marines…
      As long as you don’t play marines, none of your games will be marines vs marines.

      And statically if you do play marines, then 1 out of 5 games will be against a non marine army.

      But that assumes an equal distribution of players across all 30k armies. And give that we don’t have an equal distribution of players across all 40k armies, the is a very big assumption. So the statistics would probably be closer to 1 in 10 or 1 in 15 games will not be marines vs marines.

    • benn grimm

      Good.

    • Who cares ?

  • disqus_CktyL7rKWJ

    What if I were to tell you that this game is just 5th edition 40k with even more convoluted rules and no xenos?
    No formations and everybody plays Space Marines, plus 16 types of self-contradicting special snowflake rules. Once per year you get another codex to invalidate your 70GPB tome.
    also, there is no such thing as perfect balance (i.e. Iron Hands, Mechanicum).
    It’s not even another game. HH is a supplement for 40k.

  • Red_Five_Standing_By

    Both games are broken, fun but broken. 30k has better balance than 40k but it’s not like 30k is Warmahordes or something like it. It is still built atop a broken foundation.

    Personally, I like both but favor 30k because I like the era and the stories a bit more. But then again, the lack of Xenos is always sad. I like fighting things other than space marines.

    • nurglitch

      I think the lack of ATSKNF really stands in favour of 30k-style SM.

      • Brian Griffith

        The fact that everyone lacks it, loyalist and traitor alike, and thus Leadership/Morale actually matters is pretty refreshing.

        • nurglitch

          That’s one of the reasons I like CSM (and Orks and Astra Militarum) because they don’t have ATSKNF and leadership plays a part in the game.

    • benn grimm

      So play xenos? Plenty fluffy; the great crusade was basically a xenocidal romp across the galaxy after all; they did plenty of good foightin’ before they turned on each other.

    • 6Cobra

      I’m always a little confused by the NO XENOS complaint: just play your 30K Legion against some xenos. The Eldar and the Orks were, frankly, exactly the same then as they are 10k years later. If the Legions “aren’t competitive” against Eldar, well thats just like 40K anyway. And I realize that some people apparently lacking in imagination start twitching if 30K Legions play against “evil xenos robots (necrons), “technologically advanced xenos (tau)”, or “Megarachnids (tyranids)” but AFAIK no games police are going to arrest you if you do.

  • Inian

    And if you find the Imperium of mankind to be the most boring part of 40k? I’m not interested in marines or chaos, I don’t care about the legions or primarchs and for me the Horus Heresy is a boring footnote in the galactic history books.

    I’m glad you like it, I really am, but it doesn’t do anything for me.

    Regarding balance, it would be difficult to fail at balancing 30k considering how similar the different legions are. Sure there’s some admech and auxilia to spice things up, but everyone that plays 30k here to play the legions first.

    Obviously it’s possible to balance armies in 40k as well, it just takes a bit more than minimal effort when designing codices.

    • EnTyme

      I fully agree. Every seems to drool over the Horus Heresy, and that’s fine for those who like it, but to me it’s like reading DC comics. It’s just a bunch of gods having a fist fight. It gets boring fast

      • Shiwan8

        But herohammer 40k us not like reading comics? I’m pretty sure that most popular super heroes are presented in one form or another in 40k. 😀

    • This is mainly for people that don’t want to play against cheese xenos.

  • Deacon Ix

    Too many exclamation marks to take this article seriously.

    • Rotten Deadite

      Nothing says “professional journalism” like three exclamation marks.

  • Missing Imperial Militia and Warp Cult in the list.

    • Haighus

      I was thinking that, but it would appear the article was written some time ago, based on the fact they say the 30k vehicles will soon be released in IA13… which was released awhile ago.

    • Andrew Thomas

      And they still have Blood Angels to do.

  • Archon Malan’tai

    There is more balance in 30k… Because except for small changes, it’s the same army again and again with less verity than Vanila SM to Space Wolves. Look these power armor bolter guys are as cool as those power armor bolter guys. It’s as balanced as Eldar vs Eldar vs Eldar vs Eldar vs Eldar vs Eldar vs Eldar vs Eldar vs Eldar vs Eldar vs Eldar vs Eldar vs Eldar vs Eldar.

    • MrTish

      Hey now! But those Eldar are all….. different…. colours?

      • Archon Malan’tai

        Right! 🙂

    • benn grimm

      Way to repeat a popular misconception…

    • An_Enemy

      By “small changes” did you mean “every Legion plays differently”?

      Because otherwise it sounds like you have no idea what you’re talking about.

  • DaveTycho

    Functionally 30K is 40K. The only real difference would be the army lists themselves and how you would set up your army. Sure there are massive balance issues with all the 40k armies, but a lot of that does come down to what people field, ie people choosing to use powerful spammy units. While 30K’s internal balance makes it harder to create broken combos, it’s not impossible and people will exploit that, just like in 40K.

    Another thing I don’t understand about all this is why people try to keep 30k and 40k seperate. You can easily play 40k vs 30k lists (remember same core rules) but for some reason people think that the two lists aren’t compatible for balance reasons, which I find laughable. While I see no problem with people playing 40k vs 40k, or 30k vs 30k, whether is for reasons of balance, fluff, or marine vs marine (or xeno vs xeno), but that doesn’t mean that you shouldn’t play 30k vs 40k, as it gives variety. Tired of playing marine vs marine all the time? Play off against some 40k xeno. Sick of going up against some cheesy 40k list you can’t handle? Play off against a ,well, less cheesy 30k list.

    TL; DR: 30K is the same as 40K. It has more balanced lists, but these can be broken too. Separating 30K lists from 40Ks doesn’t solve the balance problems, and playing 30K vs 40k is easy as long as both players ain’t d#*ks.

    • SYSTem050

      I sense logic,perspective,maturity and a willingness to disscuss. HERESY this has no place on BOLS 🙂

      • DaveTycho

        Ha! You’re right! What was I thinking?
        (Goes to local commissar for discipline. Returns later as Rob Baer clone).

      • nurglitch

        A mature, logical perspective is guilty of wasting our time. BURN HIM!

    • Haighus

      I agree. I think some of the other balance considerations though come from the way forces are constructed- LoW are still much more restricted than in normal 40k, and formations haven’t become a thing in 30k yet, so some of the biggest sources of complaint are harder to find in 30k.

    • benn grimm

      Most people I know who would like to keep the two seperate, pretty much do so to avoid having to play Eldar/Tau/cheesy formations (or marines with ATSKNF). Simple as that. Apart from that, its really never been an issue. I play Daemons pretty much exclusively at this point and I’ve never been turned down for a 30k game.

      • That’s really the main point – if you enjoying playing SM and want to avoid eldar and tau this can work.

        • DaveTycho

          This is what I don’t understand- the assumption that 30k is somehow perfectly balanced and by mixing it with 40k you somehow ruin it. Sure 30k is more balanced than 40k but that
          doesn’t mean you can’t create deathstars, use invisibility, or abuse the rules in some form in 30k. Nor just because eldar and tau are OP, that doesn’t mean everyone who fields eldar or tau will use broken lists too. And what about the weaker lists like chaos marines and dark eldar? Are they so underpowered that it’s not worth playing against a space marine legion?

          • There’s no point to playing CSM as all the traitor legions are inherently better than their respective 40k counter parts… No need to beat your head against the wall. For instance the death reaper strikes at initiative in 30k.

            Psychic powers is held in check because only Chaos daemons have access to fielding lots of warp charge. There’s kind of an unspoken agreement not to do it with daemons either because no one wants to be that guy in 30k.

            There aren’t any Death Stars that can’t be countered either and easily enough. Sure you can field a Death Star but you’re paying the points.

          • DaveTycho

            Sure chaos marines are inferior compared to the legions, but that doesn’t mean that someone won’t try such a match up. What, that shouldn’t be allowed?

            So people choose not to use invisibility in 30k? The same can be said with choosing to use invisibility or not in 40k too. Or for that matter, anything else that is considered broken in 40k.

            Of course deathstars in 30k are actually justified in points, but I like to see how they are countered without another deathstar.

          • Between two equally skilled players who know their armies CSM will never beat traitor legion barring dice.

            There’s no Libby conclave in 30k so invis isn’t reliable.

          • DaveTycho

            People were complaining about invisibility before librarian conclave existed. Space marine legions could field up to 3 librarians, and with thousand sons coming soon, that might be enough to have reliable invisibility.

            So chaos marines would never beat legions in a match. So that means there’s no point whatsoever in playing them in 30k. What about orks? Dark eldar? Tyranids? Imperial guard? Are they not worth playing against in 30k either? Are space marine legions such the epitome of balance that the only thing worth playing against is another space marine legion?

          • benn grimm

            CSM have no place playing against a 30k army anyway, unless you want some kind of a twilight zone type thing going on. Orks are better in 30k, as (I would suggest) most of the 30k armies are costed towards killing elites and horde armies tend to negate this somewhat. Nids would be siimilar, and work well as generic ‘xenos form unknown’. The Imp Guard exists in the form of the Solar Auxilia, which are way more badass and have way more options. Daemons work just fine, Eldar are probably a bit OP compared, DE the opposite, though they would probably murderise Mechanicum.

            I guess the main point is the that 30k appears to be better thought out. It has captured its own market, so it doesn’t have to pander to a perceived element that enjoys the power creep (as the main studio seems to). The new Marine powers are a good example, but there are plenty of others. They might sound fun to begin with, but when you really look at them and the potential impact, you realise they may as well have been written by a twelve year old boy.

      • DaveTycho

        I understand wanting to avoid cheesy lists, but you can do that and still play 40k lists that aren’t cheesy with 30k. The problem is not just the cheesy lists, but the people who play them that way. While 30k is more balanced than 40k, that doesn’t eliminate the potential of someone fielding a broken 30k list in either a 30k or 40k game.

        • benn grimm

          For pick up games the 30k balance seems a lot better. Against a regular opponent, it is still better(for me), for the simple fact that you don’t have to deliberately gimp your list to give your opponent a chance. Ive played 40k for a long time, mainly as xenos, 30k is not perfect, just like 5th ed 40k wasn’t. But they are infinitely preferable.

          The problem is both people and game; the game encourages a certain kind if play. If I go to play a pick up game of 40k I know i will likely (3 out 5 times) end up across the table from a demi company, riptide wing, lots of flying tyrants or some other such. I’m also not a massive fan of the psychic phase in 7th, in 30k it is much reduced.

          Another big thing for me is the nature of the army lists; in 30k there are still lots entries that don’t have models/and/or have entries which state that many varieties of this entry exist in the game universe and that you should feel free to model appropriately; I love this and it takes me back to a time when I loved 40k for the same reason; the designers knew that allowing/encouraging creativity is more important than locking down IP so tight it can’t even breathe any more.

          • DaveTycho

            On all these points I agree with you 100%. 30k is far better balanced, limits the potential for broken Combos (but doesn’t get rid of it entirely), gives the players what they wanted in regards to legion tactics, encourages a creativity that 40k is losing, and people for the most part decide to play fair in 30k games. That is not my issue. My issue is that people, both 30k and 40k players, think that it is ABSOLUTE HERESY to mix the two up. I find this mindset really stupid as long before there were any 30k rules or models, people were playing with space marine armies converted to look like their 30k equivalents, using the various space marine and chaos marines codices against other 40k armies, with no one making any bit of a fuss about balance or historical relevance. And now we got actual rules and models for the legions, rules that use the same core ruleset as every other 40k army, for some stupid reason most people decide you can’t do the 30k vs 40k matchups of old anymore even though there is no functional reason you can’t besides people saying so. I liked the idea of playing a space marine legion in 40k. I played against people who used “counts as” legions before there were actual legions. And even before 30k proper came out, I spent years slowly building up and waiting patiently for the day where I could field an actual army, with all the proper models and all the blinged up shoulder pad logos and rhino doors in 40k, only to be told that I’m ruining it somehow on some absurd notion of balance.

          • benn grimm

            Preaching to the converted here dude,) I have no problem with it, like I said earlier, though a break from ‘Dar is always nice.

        • Shiwan8

          While this is true, have you ever seen a top codex fighting bottom codex in a balanced game? I have not.

          • DaveTycho

            I don’t understand. Are you saying that 30k is too overpowered or underpowered for 40k?

          • Shiwan8

            Underpowered.

    • Djbz

      As I play Dark Eldar I would LOVE to play against 30K marine armies.
      As It means I can actually use the cool Soul-fright weapons

      • DaveTycho

        Do it! I won’t stop you!

    • Shiwan8

      Why would you want to ruin a perfectly good 30k match by mixing in 40k?!?!?

      • DaveTycho

        How is mixing 30k and 40k ruining it?

        • Shiwan8

          30k armies are only slightly better than CSM and mixing all kinds of deathstars and eldar spams with that is in all honesty just bad for 30k.

          • DaveTycho

            Death Stars and eldar spam is bad for 40k too. Just because you are trying to avoid certain OP lists, it doesn’t mean that all 40k lists are bad for 30k.

          • Shiwan8

            True. Some 40k factions are just bad for 30k. It’s not about lists. It’s about strongest builds.

          • DaveTycho

            So 30k can’t handle the worst aspects of 40k, and that justifies a blanket ban on 30k vs 40k matches?

          • Shiwan8

            As far as those problems exist in a faction that faction is not compatible with 30k.

  • WindSplash

    space wolves? wuaaaaaauuu…. How about Rainbow warriors or space sharks or flesh eaters to comemmorate the 30th aniversary instead huh?

    I got nothing against space wolves but at this rate it just sounds so boring to have more Space wolve stuff.

    • Tati

      its not ment to commemorate the 30th, 1 legion gets chosen for the dice. space sharks and flesh eaters where not in 30k

      • SYSTem050

        I think he/she is discussing the 30th aniversary not 30k.

        Both the flesh tearers and rainbow warriors were most definatley about then. Dont know about space sharks as i dont have my rogue trader to hand.

        That said i would think space wolf dice will sell far better than a more obscure legion/chapter.

        *EDIT* ahh get your point its one of the ret conned “original” legions poor rainbow warriors never get any love

        • Haighus

          Carcharodons (Space Sharks) are likely a 2nd Founding Chapter though, so they technically are around in the Heresy… as part of the Raven Guard. FW have given several nods to them in the HH books too, with the Chapter likely being formed from the surviving Terran veterans of the Legion.

          • Andrew Thomas

            …Raven Guard? Makes no sense.

          • Haighus

            It does when you consider the massive culture shift in the Raven Guard upon rediscovering Corax. The Terran veterans of the Legion fought much more commonly in a style similar to the Sons of Horus- rapid, overwhelming decapitation strikes. Most of the Legion’s Terminator units consisted mainly of Terrans, and it is this legacy you see in the Terminator equipped units of the Carcharodons. The Carcharodons have inherited the pale skin, and the ability to go a bit insane with bloodlust (a cold bloodlust) from the Raven Guard (was commonly seen in survivors of the Isstvan V massacre).

            The Carcharodons also have an instinctual ability to find weak points to strike, and can melt away from an attack very quickly if resistance is stronger than expected, which is actually quite similar in style to the Raven Guard. They mainly favour a heavier, more overwhelming assault over the stealth of the Raven Guard as the key difference.

          • Andrew Thomas

            Ok, I see it now.

          • Andrew Thomas

            Also, is it just me, or do all the Terran Legionaries have an obsession with being Luna Wolves? Seems to be a common theme with most of the Legions that lacked a clear position on Horus’ rebellion.

      • WindSplash

        In Rouge Trader they where.

  • wibbling

    The rules are the same,. I repeat, *the same*. This isn’t a different rule set. It is the *same* rule set.

    30K is ‘balanced’ whatever that means because both sides can choose from the same list. That isn’t ‘balanced’, it’s monotony. The variation comes from theming your army to suit the legion you are choosing to play and there you get the differences between armies.

    That’s where the fun lays: thematic play. Narrative, not rules. The great advantage of Warhammer 40K is being able to choose from a wide range of different aesthetics and field what you like from those.

    • benn grimm

      Its not the same rule set, its modified. So not *the same*. Different. Slightly.

      Its also not monotonous, and there are plenty of distinctly different lists. Tbh I kind of get the impression you haven’t really spent much time with HH, that you’re just making assumptions based on what you’ve heard.

    • Shiwan8

      Thats where the fun lays for you. Many if not most gamers still choose to cheese it out and in that situation it’s only the rules that matter.

  • wong40k

    Some one is apparently on honeymoon with 30k

  • happy_inquisitor

    Eh, I like the wild crazy variety of 40k. I know it can create mismatches so I talk to my opponent ahead of time to judge how much cheese I should be piling on the table. I generally have games that are decided on turns 4-5 so it works out well enough.

    I have nothing against the idea of 30k but the only marines I like are GK so I’ll pass.

    • Shiwan8

      What if you play an army that has no cheese in it and the opponent brings a tournament list?

      • happy_inquisitor

        Why would they do that unless we had agreed it was a tournament practice game?

        The trick to all of this is to use the social contract by actually communicating with people. I find that I really do not have too many problems when I do that.

        • Shiwan8

          Because it’s the standard to use the best things you have.

          • happy_inquisitor

            It is standard for some people who always play that one way. That is fine for them and sometimes I want a tournament style game and will take on the challenge.

            Other times there are plenty of other players.

        • Shiwan8

          I get that that is your experience. That however does not mean that it is so for everyone. Generally it is far easier to find a WAAC match than something reasonable even though particular styles have various levels of popularity among different gaming groups.

  • pokemastercube .

    dark angels and the adeptus mechanicus were not in the list of 40K armies.

    and it is mechanicum in 30K not ad-mech

    • PinkyandtheBrain

      Ad Mech is still 2 armies in 40k plus Harlequins and Gene Cults… Missed a lot of 40k armies out. But well done fur balancing a system with 1 army and a few special units added to it… Yeah AV15 Landraiders immune to melta are totally balanced.

      • Shiwan8

        More balanced than things in 40k. 😏

      • An_Enemy

        “Virtually AV15 in the front arc only”

        Ftfy.

  • jasonsation

    I don’t know anything really about the Sisters of Silence. Would they look pretty close to Sisters of Battle? Could 30k finally bring them back to 40k as a shared model with 30k?

    • Brian Griffith

      Sisters of Silence are pretty distinct from Sisters of Battle, both visually and in how they’d in theory play.

      Sisters of Silence are an elite cadre of women with the Pariah gene who have sworn an oath of silence and hunt down Psykers for the Black Ships.

  • Drpx

    So to balance 40k we should just all play Vanilla Space Marine codex using Tactical Squads and a Smashf$&@cker type HQ.

    • cudgel

      I did love third….

    • eMtoN

      I have an alternative idea. Instead of everyone playing space marines, you could also achieve balance if everyone played Eldar. That way everyone would have the exact same power level…

  • Davis Centis

    “It’s not all Space Marines, all the time, but seriously, the best thing is that it’s all Space Marines, all the time!”

    • Haighus

      I liked the ‘avoid Eldar!!’ followed later by ‘but you can include Eldar as they were around back then’…

      • Shiwan8

        One of those things you can but should not do.

    • That’s the spirit !!! We don’t need no stinking xenos.

    • Admiral Raptor

      The 40k universe has always revolved around Space Marines. The Rules support that now more than ever. 30k is just more honest about it. If you don’t like Space Marines you won’t get a lot of mileage out of the Warhammer universe.

  • zeek203

    40k has turned into an absolute mess and is no fun to play at all. 30k, on the other hand, is awesome!

  • Benoit Tremblay

    I have a fever, and the only cure … is more spesh murines.

    • nurglitch

      “I want you to really explore the space.”

      • Benoit Tremblay

        murines

  • Malisteen

    “no, really, it’s not all space marines all the time,” then a few paragraphs later, “the armies you can play include space marines space marines space marines space marines space marines space marines … … … space marines and admech.” whoo? And mostly might-as-well-be-loyalist space marines at that, near about only the word bearers have anything recognizeably chaos to field.

    It’s a better game in terms of balance, certainly. But it absolutely is not an adequate substitute for a playable 40k.

    • Admiral Raptor

      What’s playable 40k? That sounds like a great idea! I wonder why we don’t have something like that :p

  • nurglitch

    Did you know that there’s an amazing game out there that blows 40k out of the water? That’s exactly like 40k, but with even more Space Marines? Fer realz!

  • ProjectThanatos

    As a Tyranid player, no thanks.

  • Gunther Clone C

    But…no Nids in 30k? What about Genestealer cults? 🙁

    • Shiwan8

      Plenty of alien insectish races to go around in age of unification.

  • benn grimm

    At this point 30k beats 40k up, takes its lunch money, eats it like a filthy cannibal, spits the bones out and chuckles before asking for more…no contest…

    • Admiral Raptor

      That is both wonderfully descriptive and incredibly accurate!

  • standardleft

    40k is best. WOOOOOOaaah

  • Seth

    Awesome game that you must to play one of the first founding legions with no room to create your own Warband/Chapter, and no Tzeentch daemons or any other daemons unless you play Word Bearers.
    Screw a grim uncertain galaxy, lets just live in the past and give are souls to the all consuming FW.
    because who needs, you know the thing called “creativity” in their hobby.
    Because none of us has ever invested $300+ dollars in their badass Tzeentch themed CSM army that they can play perfectly fine with.

    • Admiral Raptor

      You haven’t read the latest book. It absolutely gives you rules for creating your own warband outside of the legions. You could run your tzeentch themed warband in 30k with minimal difficulty and you wouldn’t have to use the abomination that is Codex: Chaos Space Marines.

      • Seth

        Huh, I admit I did not know that.

      • Seth

        So do they have some sort of make your own “Legion” rules, I mean how does it work cause now you got me interested.

        • 6Cobra

          You’d be looking for the rules for Blackshields most likely, which were ruthless independent warbands of renegade Astartes making their own way in the total bedlam of the Heresy.
          It sounds like *ahem* “proxying” your very personally themed Tzeentch warband using Thousand Sons Legion rules or something similar isn’t what you’re looking for, although in my personal opinion that would be a great match.

          • Seth

            Will consider this coarse of action.

      • Seth

        Sorry if I came off as a little pissed cause have put a lot into my army and it looks great, I just want it to be good.

  • carlisimo

    Coincidentally, 30k’s balance breaks down a little when it comes to the non-marine armies, especially Mechanicum. Who could’ve guessed? The cost of the books is also an issue.

    But… it’s undoubtedly being better managed than 40k is at the moment, and the fluff has been more reasonable too. It has a strong narrative, great minis, and a good community (for examle, The Eye of Horus Podcast is great, even if you don’t play).

    I don’t think 40k’s current issues are inherent to the variety of armies it has – 4th edition Eldar were fine, and Tau were too at some point. The current mess of lists and formations is a relatively new phenomenon. There were also a lot of lists during the 3rd ed. Chapter Approved days, but that didn’t seem so difficult to keep track of, maybe because they were usually in a White Dwarf.

  • Admiral Raptor

    There’s no competition. 40k is flaming garbage compared to 30k. The fluff, rules, models, and style are all far and away better than the jumble ruins of a game that is 40k.

    I can think of two reasons to stick with 40k, you’re a poor xenos player who’s loyal to your faction; or you’re poor in real life and have some moral objection to pirated books, recasts, and counts as.

  • Nicholas D Western

    This article just sounds like an old man sitting in hos rocking chair finding things to complain about…. DAMN KIDS!! Yet there is not mention of the inflated price tag of 30k vs 40k.

    • Shiwan8

      Quality costs money. Too bad that the rules are better while models are not.

  • Boondox

    I guess that the HH satisfies the folks that want to play SM vs SM but the lack of Xenos doesn’t interest me enough to play 30K…

    • Shiwan8

      It also satisfies more the crowd that wants to play warhammer in stead of starhammer or spamhammer. And it’s relatively balanced!

  • Countdiscount

    As someone that’s currently building a 30k army, I wish the author would have gone into much more depth giving examples of why 30k is so much better.

    I’m going to play 30k once I finish building my Legion anyway, but you need more supporting facts and examples as to why you think 30k is so much better than 40k.

  • Andrew Thomas

    8 factions is a very small fishbowl to swim in. Even when 3 of those factions have anywhere from half a dozen to a dozen and a half flavors.

  • reynor

    Locally our 30k community is more interested in playing narrative games than competitive. On the flip side, the same exact people play very competitive 40k.

    I have yet to play but I have a 30k army and it is BEAUTIFUL.

    • The last 40k tournament I played in left a really bad taste in my mouth. There are some real douches. I have never had this experience with 30k though.

      • Shiwan8

        So, a basic tournament in which people play to win.

  • EndreFodstad

    40k but with more Space Marines and less everything else. Got it. Also, buy dice with wolves on them.

  • ZeeLobby

    Game designers wrote the 30K rules. That’s the biggest difference.

  • Thatroubleshootah

    Fortyk only costs two functioning human kidneys and one hope diamond. 30k with all the forge world you need to buy costs seven ark of the covenants and four golden wonka tickets. I’ll pass until my membership in the .0001 percent comes through

    • CMAngelos

      Kind of a misconception. For the number of models you really need you play 30k the cost has a tendency to balance out in the end. Especially compared to the army in the month tail chasing you see in 40k

      • Thatroubleshootah

        the cost of the forge world vehichles is nuts. i asked people on these forums when calth was coming out how much more id need to spend on a 1500 pt 30k army and they said two calth boxes plus $1500. that is way more than a DA or BA 40k army built with dark vengeance or space hulk. not to mention how many other games i could get full armies for for that price.

        A fellblade costs $240. I bought 90 DV space marines for a buck apiece at my flgs. I bought 5 used Landraiders at $35 a piece at my FLGS. because 30k is mostly forgeworld and that stuff is not as common as 40k buying used is not as much of an option. There is no universe where I spend $240 plus great britain shipping on one tank

        further:
        i could buy a fellblade for $240 or literalyeverything available for my infinity army.

        • CMAngelos

          Because you need a Fellblade to play 30k right?

          Unless you want the specific look of them or their options 40k Mars Pattern Rhinos, Predators, Vindicators and the Land raider Phobos (the twin lascanon version) are all 30k Acceptable models and loadouts.

          Sure there is no equivalent to a Spartan, Sicarans or the variations of some weapons (Vindicator Laser Destroyers or Predator Executioner/Infernus) but you can do the bulk of a nice looking 30k army with GW plastic.

          So yes, the costs between new and new are Balanced, and the costs between new and used items will only cost slightly more at the end of it.

          • Thatroubleshootah

            so i can just use all my existing 40k vehicles (rhino, landraider, whirlwind, predator, drop pod razorback, etc) and my existing 40k space marines and play 30k?

            I bought one calth set when i found it discounted to 85 bucks. haven’t done anything with it yet.

          • CMAngelos

            Rhinos, preditors, drop pods, Whirlwinds (not the Scorpius), Lascanon Land Raiders, Dreadnoughts, GW terminators. All have their place, Razorbacks don’t. You’re going to be looked at wierd for using GW Marines though because that pattern of armor didn’t exist yet. But the calth set us MKIV which did.

            Pick up the Crusade Army List book and actually look through it.

  • Henri-Pierre Garnier

    So the game is better because all armies are space marines? Yeah, no thanks.

  • Timotheus

    I can’t stand the 30k-Hype anymore. The models aka the designs just look awful and clumpy in most cases and it’s always cans vs. cans. HH/30k may have the better rule set but due to the mentioned aspects I will always favor 40k so please stop trying to proselytise me…

    • Shiwan8

      So, “objectively speaking it’s a better game” annoys you not because it’s true but because the models are not fitting to your idea of whats cool and whats not.

      Why not use mkIV since they are available and comparably super cheap?

      • Timotheus

        How could you say objectively better game? There are people like me who are more interested in style, diversity and story than in rule balance… Thanks for your suggestions but I’ll stick to 40k.

  • Commissar Molotov

    “Yo, dawg – I heard you like space marines, so we put some space marines in your space marines so you can fight space marines while you space marine!”