40K: End of an Era – The Death of Super Friends

 

superman funeral

Today friends we gather to mark the death of the latest King of 40K – the Superfriends.

Hi everyone it’s your ever friendly BBF swinging through your neck of the internet to spread more mischief. Today is a very special day – it’s one of those rare days when your favorite army finally gets hit by the nerf bat and oh boy it really hurts when GW uses the short end. It eventually happens to every top tier army… It’s only a matter of time and all it takes is one rules change – that rules change being now Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Grey Knights and Space Wolves negate Space Marine Chapter Tactics (CT) if joined together with a Space Marine unit. Yes it’s the death of Super Friends as we all know it or hate it and yes I’m sure many will say it’s a good thing for the game. In my eyes I see competitive Eldar and Tau players rejoicing around the world.

White_Scars_Lightning_Icon

The Early Days

I still remember when I first started to play White Scars and go all in on Super Friends… Even as easy as they seem to be it was rough in the beginning, almost like starting 40k all over again. I lost a lot of games before that magical point when it finally clicked and everything came together. I mostly play 30k now so it’s not that big a deal to me really and to be quite frank it’s probably the best for the game from an overall point of view… Well at least for Eldar and Tau players… Heh !

I can laugh about it because I don’t really care that much. If we always play the same type of army over and over again we won’t grow as players learning how to develop new strategies and tactics. I ran White Scars with Space Wolves and then Ravenwing just like everyone else that played Super Friends. It was a glorious time for playing Imperial allies but now it’s all over. It’s time to move on now and play something else.

nerfball

Why the Nerf

I can’t say why GW decided to nerf Super Friends but think it’s most likely due to one player totally dominating the independent tournament circuit. It will eventually happen to Eldar and Tau just like it did to Grey Knights and Imperial Guard. There’s no point in getting upset about it… That won’t change anything. Even if you love something consider how others might not like or even hate it. If you’re bringing one of those armies everyone else doesn’t enjoy playing against maybe you should stop and take a moment to think about it and ask yourself why do your opponents feel that way.

It’s kind of like Tau players that always want to bring a Supremacy Suit or Eldar Players that always want to bring a Revenant Titan (rolls eyes). Even though it might be fun for you – well maybe that’s just you and not everyone wants to play against super powerful units intended solely for games of Apocalypse… It’s literally the same thing with Death Stars and super shooty armies that can literally gut your army if they get to go first.

It finally dawned on me when I played in a couple of tournaments versus another Super Friends army and while I won both games having to play against another Death Star I finally realized how much unfun it can be.

 

Moving Forward

Now let’s be really honest and ask ourselves has anything really changed… The answer is mostly no because you can still field Ravenwing to build your Super Friends army. Dark Angels don’t have CT so you can still work the critically needed universal special rule Hit and Run into your Death Star. So while GW took away with one hand they didn’t really close the proverbial door. Like I said above I pretty much exclusively play 30k now so either way it doesn’t matter much for me.

Even if GW were to re-address this FAQ the loss of Hit and Run won’t stop Death Stars – they are never going to go away any time soon and there will always be new ones cropping up all the time – it’s how 40k works. Nob Bikers didn’t need Hit and Run nor did Screamer Star. If a Death Star is truly nigh unkillable and super duper choppy believe me when I tell it can and will grind through everything that crosses its path.

99120108003_ImperialKnightNEW01

Look who’s back!

The Re-Emergence of GMCs and SHW

If we take the long view in my mind the change to how grenades work in melee is actually the biggest blow to Super Friends… Those melta bombs did work versus gargantuan monstrous creatures (GMCs) and super heavy walkers (SHW). Heck even krak grenades were better than nothing. It doesn’t make sense to me why GW chose to change this one particular rule and it will truly change the meta, much more so than the new Space Marine FAQs. GMCs and SHW just got that much better now so you’ll be seeing them even more often on your local tables. If GW really wanted to address external game balance they would make it such that you need your opponent’s permission to field them which is pretty much how 30k works in reality. 30k is not really something you see in a lot of tournaments which is one of the reasons it’s become so popular but try explaining that to the players whom wish to always field their big toys… Good luck with that one !

Ravenwinglogo

In Closing

Well like I said above Super Friends is not really dead, you’ll just have to use Ravenwing as the kernel for your Death Star which is often the case anyways. The biggest nerf to Super Friends is how grenades work in melee now and those stomps can really hurt too ! Ravenwing works just fine in conjunction with Space Wolves (neither of which have CT) and White Scars so don’t worry… Super Friends are still very much alive and doing well… Sorry !

 

  • sjap98

    Who needs friends, anyway?

  • Djbz

    “Super-friends” was an abomination that should never have been possible in the first place.
    Good riddance is all I have to say

    • Jonathan B.

      Where do you play your games? The Legion of Doom?

    • If they don’t get shot off the table

    • Alpharius

      The Space Marine FAQ does do that for Dark Angels/Wolves/Vampires.

  • somewhatdamaged

    It still amazes me that some people (ie: the author) think that they changed the grenade in combat rules. They didn’t! It’s the way it’s always worked, read the damn rulebook properly.

    • Aaron

      probably all the RAW mob using a slight grammatical or syntax error; everyone knew it was one

    • Spacefrisian

      I remember 4th edition, where each Assaultmarine could buy Meltabombs and all could use them in combat…legally, so it has not always been like what you just claimed to be always.

      • somewhatdamaged

        Don’t be obtuse, you know I was referring to the way it’s worked this edition.

        • Joseph Boyd

          well you did say “its the way its always worked”. dont get butt hurt because someone proved you wrong.

      • Parthis

        To be fair, meltabombs are different.

        Also, in 30K, you can still have an entire unit with every model carrying a Meltabomb.

        • nurglitch

          You mean like Space Marine Vanguard Veterans, or Dark Angel Company Veterans?

    • UberTek

      Its a hang over from 6th. The wording changed in 7th.

    • Jamie Richard Micheal Seddon

      the author has been getting things wrong for years this is why they are so funny to read !

    • life of adept brian

      Well then, this will likely put you right over the edge (I had a bit of time to kill, so it’s a lengthy post)… It is my opinion that the FAQ (Facebook Team’s interpretation) regarding grenades is incorrect. Remember, this is not the design studio – the Facebook team is a different group of people just attempting to answer the questions they asked the community for. They are just reading the rules and providing an interpretation just as you and I are. I agree that they have not changed the rule, but they did provide an answer to a community member’s question that does not appear to be in line with the way many others interpreted the rule.

      While it is true that the grenade rules say you can only ever “throw” one grenade per unit per phase (ie. your shooting phase or your opponent’s assault phase as an overwatch attack), the rules break to a new paragraph and go on to say that a model with grenades can “use” them in place of their close combat attack (only 1 attack per model). Again, in the sections explaining each of the grenade types, they mention that a single model from a unit can choose to throw a grenade in place of its other shooting attack, under the heading “Shooting”. And again, for each of the types under “Assault”, it goes on to say that models equipped with (whichever) grenades can (whatever effect). In my opinion a very clear distinction between what occurs in the assault phase and when grenades are used as a shooting attack. The primary distinction being that a grenade is not “thrown” in the assault phase, merely “used” (the weapon profile says Range: – ). I realize this sounds like splitting hairs, but this is how I had interpreted the rules from the beginning.

      If it is maintained that they meant that only one grenade can be “used”, then how many models would benefit from frag grenades? According to this ruling, only one model would not suffer the initiative effects of charging through terrain.

      In your post you say “read the damn rule properly” – I guess my only response to that would be: I think I did. I believe the Facebook team made the same (in my opinion), incorrect interpretation that you did in reading the same passages that I read. To support this, I would simply say that they have given a number of responses that have left the community scratching their collective heads. In reference to your reply to Spacefrisian, I am not being obtuse here, just explaining an honest interpretation of the rules as I see them. Really doesn’t matter to me what the rule ends up being, just thought I would explain to you why some people might have a different interpretation than yourself.

      (And to Parthis below, there is no difference between meltabombs and other grenade types – it’s all covered under the grenade rules. If the rules apply to one, then they apply to all. Meltabombs can never be thrown, however.)

  • I don’t think the tourney circuit had anything to do with the change. I just think it was the logic of “Well Salamanders and White Scars cancel each other out, why wouldn’t Blood Angels or Dark Angels do the same?”

  • Jason Harrison

    I agree that the FAQs to the other marine books will include similar rulings that will prevent multiple chapters from combining their special rules. The future belongs to the wulfen and the Eldar.

    • How much you wanna bet. Internships just ended last week in uk.

  • MarcoT

    Shouldn’t the last sentence be “Luckily I play 30k anyway so I don’t really care”?

    • Karru

      Playing 30k is starting to feel like vaping and being vegan. No one asks you about it but in a normal conversation they have to mention it at least once every few sentences.

      • Ha!

      • ZeeLobby

        I think it’s more a reflection of how bad 40K has become. Those who’ve found the light are eager to share. GW is the last refuge of actual game designers at GW, so it’s hard to overlook.

        • Karru

          Yeah, haven’t played it nor watched a single batrep but I can guess it has better balance due to lack of factions. Not saying it’s bad, but the fact that there are those, like the author, that just can’t stop mentioning that they play 30k.

          • ZeeLobby

            It’s balanced because they playtest it constantly and FAQ things frequently. Sure 30K is just space marines, for the most part, but armies can be very different due to the sheer number of options and traits of each legion. They just playtest often, and the designers design the game around those results. Something GW has ignored for 2 editions.

            That said, there are fanboys everywhere. Repeatedly praising something is never a good thing to do. But when it comes to balance, there’s some valid reasons why 30K is in a better state then 40K.

          • Karru doesn’t want to discuss the reality of the state of the game.

          • Alpharius

            They don’t really playtest things, let’s be honest. There are lots of internal balance issues in FW games, it’s just the community tends to be more mature. High entry cost is part of it.

        • Totally

      • Shiwan8

        Would be comparable if not vaping and/or not living by veggies was somehow detrimental to ones intelligence.

      • tau4eva

        Lol

      • captkaruthors

        Bwahahahahahahah!!! It’s funny because it’s true!

      • 30k is meet and potatoes

  • euansmith

    “I can’t say why GW decided to nerf Super Friends but think it’s most
    likely due to one player totally dominating the independent tournament
    circuit
    them not understanding the impact of making alterations to the rules.”

    • ZeeLobby

      Haha. This. To think they even paid attention to tourney results is laughable.

      • Jonathan B.

        But I thought it was a beer and pretzels game. I’ve been playing it wrong all this time!

        • ZeeLobby

          Nothing wrong with beer and pretzels + balance. Even when I play those games, it’s more fun when they don’t end turn 2.

      • ^ This
        I think it’s much more likely that this was the way they intended the game to be played in the first place.

        • ZeeLobby

          Even if tournaments were never a focus of the game, they should still be using whatever is available to make it the best game possible. There’s no way anyone can disagree with that. To just ignore a segment of their player base, and what that segment reveals about the holes and flaws in their system, is just laziness to be honest. No one would play a board game or video game if parts of it were broken.

        • Or just the bloke who wrote the new FAQs

  • Xalopec

    So the article says superfriends are dead, but basically they are fine. And they are they going to suffer without the granades only having miserable 20 S10 AP 2 attacks with rerolls.
    Sorry what was the point again?

    • 20 grenades against rear-armour too (for any vehicle not a walker)

  • Joseph Limitone

    The relics why only one ?? The Raven Guard Kayon book says one of each relic may be used by a single character it’s not like you make him any more powerful then say a named character. I read it as you can take one of each relic and will play that way as well. It’s not like your stacking instant death weapons And things that give you a gross advantage, if anything it gives a home made character a chance to fight the named characters IMO.

    • Djbz

      Because everyone else is limited to one as well and they want to be consistent?

      And “fluff wise” what chapter in their right mind would trust one guy to carry all these unique items that will be lost if he gets vaporized by an enemy weapon?

      • Joseph Limitone

        So dragio or Dante can have multiple cool items but my home made superhero can’t ? That doesn’t seem right well, win some lose some I suppose but I’ll argue till the cows come home the language states one of each ! Point well taken thanks for the comment and yes I’m sore about it lol.

        • Djbz

          That’s the price of equipment choice. (As unique characters usually don’t have any)

        • Karru

          The idea that you can’t take more than one relic per model is IMO dumbest thing in the universe. Considering that GW is trying to push the “Forge the Narrative” down our throats, this decision is definitely not helping. My own made Warboss, rules-wise, is supposed to be a Warlord. Why doesn’t’ he have all the best bitz of the clan? You know, like he is supposed to have?? The fact that GW wants us to make our own stories, it’s hard when our supposed “badass” is one-shotted by a lascannon to the foot.

          • Joseph Limitone

            Yup exactly my sentiments and DJBZ what do you mean. Characters don’t have relics Dante has 3 a mask a ax and armor. Dragio has several heck all of the named characters have multiple relics. It’s hog wash and I’ll play how I see fit.

          • Djbz

            I never said they don’t have relics-I said they don’t have a choice of what their equipment is. (Which there are a few minor exceptions-but never at the level a custom character has)

          • Dennis J. Pechavar

            Also you usually can’t give them dedicated transport or change equipment for example armour or a bike. Yes there are exceptions but for the most part they are a fixed commodity.

          • Joseph Limitone

            and what they have is better then a stock captain or chapter master hence reinforcing my point that we should be able to take multiple Relics as well. I hind sight though i still believe you can take all the relics you like so long as one is a weapon. Notice the emphasis on the word “armed”. So i believe a Raven Guard captain can still take the fancy armor the skull thing and the jump pack with the claws as well.

          • Koonitz

            Then feel free to replace the bike-mounted Iron Hands Chapter Master with Artificer armour/Thunderhammer/Shield Eternal with a special character (Note, he’s not a Lord of War, so Marneus is… Well, probably not a match, anyway).

            Of course, that character is still viable, because he only has one relic.

            You can absolutely make more powerful custom characters than the special characters if you know what you’re doing. The only real benefit special characters give are the special rules that are not available elsewhere.

          • Drpx

            Doesn’t Smashf$&ker use little to no relics anyway?

          • He just need that amazing shield.

          • Patriarch

            Draigo has a magic sword, plus the same bog standard Storm Shield that every other chapter has dozens of. What other unique items do you think he’s got?

          • Joseph Limitone

            How about the book of magic he uses ??? not to mention the warp dust seriously dude …..

          • Nameless

            hey that’s the only stormshield that has ever been wielded by anyone from the grey knight chapter so don’t pass it off as just another stormshield.

          • Mr_Pickles

            That’s because he’s an Ork… Orks can’t have nice things, even Forgeworld took down IA:8.

          • memitchell

            The story is your Warboss was one-shotted by an anti-tank weapon, as hard as that is to believe. Talk about unrealistic.

      • Drpx

        Blood Ravens, but it’s not like those relics were theirs anyway…

        • EnTyme

          Hey! Those were gifts! It’d be rude not to use them.

      • Karru

        Vulkan He’stan The Glaive, the Cloak and the Gauntlet. So Salamanders are mad.

        Marneus Calgar, Armour of Antilochus and Gauntlets of Ultramar. Ultramarines are mad.

        Kor’sarro Khan, Moonfang and Moondrakkan. White Scars have gone mad.

        So tell me again, how is it “fluff wise” unspeakable to have a single character with multiple relics?

        The point here is the fact that some people, like me, would like to represent custom made characters well on the battlefield. Since we don’t have anyway to give them some special rules that would fit their story, relics are the only way to make them good.

        • Djbz

          Space Marines can have more than one relic when Dark Eldar/Orks/Necrons/Daemonkin etc can.

          (All of whom, I may add, would be far less restrictive with regards to such items- Ork Warbosses unlikely to share the best loot for example)

          • Karru

            I view relics as “generic”. As in where something like the Moonfang is unique to the White Scars since it’s in the hands of Kor’sarro, but something like Teeth of Terra isn’t exactly sent in the Galactic Mail to the chapter in need. The chapter has it in “lore of the battle” when they buy it for their character. Basically the idea is that they are generic in sense that yes they have names, they are unique but I can have it with my Ultramarine Captain and the next game I can have it with my Salamander Chaplain.

            The idea is that they are something that upgrades your character into a “named” character. Someone who can lead your forces, someone you want them to be. Not just some generic Captain or Warboss and certainly not a named character that doesn’t fit with the army.

          • Cronz just want the thing that makes you punch yourself in the face back for like -5 points.

      • Nameless

        but now I won’t be able to run my company command squad above 500pts, nor can I run my Commissar lord with the iron left and the deathmask for nearly 140pts.

        But in all seriousness, if they want them to be consistent they need to first look at the rules of the relics not how many players can take. even with in the same armouries there is such variance in power.

    • An_Enemy

      You know you’re a Space Marine player when you’re complaining that you only get one relic per character.(oh what a sweet year you must have had putting two fancy pants on your post human dolly)

      You know you’re a Dark Eldar player when you immediately wonder why anyone would want any relics, a special character, or a regular character for that matter. We pay 10 pts for our Warlord and it’s worse than a Guard Sgt.

      • Karru

        For me it’s the “Fantasy 7th edition problem”. You had 3-5 pages of magic items to kit out your Lord or Hero and to make him/her just the way you wanted. You could make a mighty warlord that crushed everyone in CC or you could make a glorious general who led his men to war with bravery and inspiration.

        Relics offer that possibility or they used to. Now you really have to always go with the one that gives Eternal Warrior to make your character at least durable to make it more believable leader lore-wise.

      • Armor of Misery is pretty hot

  • Patriarch

    “I can’t say why GW decided to nerf Super Friends but think it’s most likely due to one player totally dominating the independent tournament circuit.”
    No, I don’t think GW is that bothered about competitions, they use points values as the attempt to keep things balanced. They ruled it because it is unfluffy – Marines working together don’t “infect” each other with their chapter archetypes. A Wolf Lord in a Blood Angel squad doesn’t make the vampires more wolfy.

    • ZeeLobby

      “they use points values to keep things balanced.” Hoping that was sarcasm…

      • Patriarch

        Hence “attempt” 🙂
        They consider the game is already balanced. If players come up with a way to crush all opposition but it still fits the background, they wouldn’t bother to address it (hence 300 point Wraithknights are a thing until at least the next Eldar codex). But combo marines aren’t fluffy so not allowed. They wouldn’t be allowed even if they weren’t powerful, it probably didn’t occur to them that people would try to blend chapter abilities.

        • ZeeLobby

          Yeah. I guess my point was, if you look at the WK, how much are they actually attempting, haha. I honestly think they just add or subtract a random amount of points with each re-release. It’s the only way CSM can keep getting more expensive while not getting any better.

          • Thomson

            Well… they seem to try. But for every point value they fix they introduce two new ones that are seriously off

          • ZeeLobby

            True. I’m not sure if it’s lack of dedicated resources or more that 100 darts thrown randomly at a dart board will occasionally hit a bulseye, haha.

        • Drpx

          Oh they knew. Just trying sell to more space marines to people who already had an army of space marines. Hence 30k.

    • You never seen Underworld huh ??

  • Deacon Ix

    End of an Error?

    • Shiwan8

      It’s like Microsoft. They fix a bug and create another.

  • Shiwan8

    Did deathstars and broken units die off? No? Ok, then not enough has changed.

    • davepak

      baby steps….one faq at a time.

      • Shiwan8

        Want to bet which faction gets nerfed the most?

        • It won’t be WS.

          • Shiwan8

            I’m betting CSM, just because no matter what their current status is in the power scale every FAQ version somehow made them worse.

          • GW will beat a dead horse and with utter abandon.

          • Shiwan8

            It seems to be eternal kharnage.

          • Totally

      • Maybe if you live long enough and keep playing

  • Chris. K Cook

    “units intended solely for games of Apocalypse”

    Super heavys and titans ect have rules in 40K now. Please get over it.

    • Shiwan8

      It is true that they have rules in it. They just do not fit in. Sadly.

    • ZeeLobby

      Lol. There was no need to include them in general 40K. GW just wanted to sell more. And sadly they did no HW before just throwing them in…

      • Chris. K Cook

        Jeeze where we we all be if we didn’t have folks like you and Shinwan8 to tell us how to have fun properly?

        We be having fun the wrong way and never knowing it.

        • ZeeLobby

          Ignorance must be bliss. All hail the might GW!

          • Chris. K Cook

            Badwrongfun!

    • oh so you must be one of those guys …

      • Chris. K Cook

        One that doesn’t dictate to people how they have fun.

        40K is a tool box if you don’t one of the tools leave it in the box.

        Just because you don’t like phillip’s head screwdrivers is no reason to ban everyone else from using them.

        You’re one of those guys then are you?

        • I can just visualize you at the table with a bloody screw driver .

          • Chris. K Cook

            What ever turns you on Bucky.

          • Bucky got the bionic arm and is faster than Flash

        • Shiwan8

          People who want broken things can play apoc. No one is telling them not to have fun.

          The problem is that you try to force your idea of fun to people who do not want it. Your fun is like a dick.

          • Chris. K Cook

            I keep explaining this to you.

            No one is forcing you to use the options you don’t like. YOU and a few others however are constantly screaming about how thing you don’t like shouldn’t be in the game.

            I’m not forcing anyone to do any thing. YOU guys are the ones constantly saying this or that shouldn’t be in the game.

            If someone doesn’t want to use a certain thing in the game I have two choices a) Agree not to play with LoW ect which isn’t a problem I own like one that I rarely use not counting the knights I just got or b) Not play them as people who wa to restrict the options are usually annoy rules lawyering WAAC types or pouty whiny jerks that blame their inability to win on GW’s rule/codex/inherent bias against their army.

            If a regular opponent says “hey how’s about you don’t run ‘x’ today?” I’d usually cool with that. Folks that Refuse to ever play against the stuff they don’t like can go hang, life is too short and my gaming time too limited for the likes of their entitled selves.

          • Shiwan8

            So, you don’t see the blame shifting and projections that comment of yours is full of?

          • Chris. K Cook

            Blame shifting?

            http://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/11ee4c5288f39bce57701795ecf7e6d077432bedf7ca1e50ea8aa25eaf26d997.jpg

            Yes it is clearly GW and my fault that you don’t know how to use your army.

          • Shiwan8

            Apparently no one does. I’ve asked you to prove me wrong several times and you have yet to do it. Feel free to start when ever. Then again, if you can not or will not the stronger argument will remain as GW not doing it’s job is the main reason for some factions getting repeatedly pummeled. Essentially it would mean that you are just wrong.

          • Chris. K Cook
          • Shiwan8

            You are right. I should not attribute malice where actions are easily explained by utter incompetence and stupidity. I quess you are not a bad person after all.

    • Drpx

      They always did, it was just accepted that squeezing one into a 1k pt list without asking if it was okay made you a tool.

    • Still doesn’t mean most people wanna against them.

      • Chris. K Cook

        Is that even a sentence?

    • Karru

      I personally don’t have a problem with most things people bring, but if I ever go into a convention or a store and someone asks be for a game and put their Revenant Titans and 3 Wraithknights I’m going to politely decline. I know for a fact that it isn’t going to be fun for me in anyway since I don’t bring my entire collection with me to those places. For me it isn’t the fact that “I’m not over it”, it’s just the fact that if they bring it, I have the option of declining the game. If they complain about it then it is their fault, not mine. If I know for a fact that I won’t be enjoying a single second of the game, I won’t play it.

      • Chris. K Cook

        This is what most people screaming about this or that ruining the game don’t get. More options are good. Even if you don’t want to use it, it’s cool that it’s there.

        The game is a tool box now. You don’t have to use every tool for every job. Do you rage at Stanley for including a socket wrench in the tool kit they sell even though you never want to use one?

        Do you think that people who use socket wrenches are weirdo perverts that are ruining home repairs?

        Now think of 40K as a tool kit and Lords of War as a socket wrench.

        • Shiwan8

          I suggest that you play the armies that can not do jack to those superheavies. Do that for 20 matches in a row and let’s discus this again after that.

          • Chris. K Cook

            A bad workman blames his tools.

            Maybe try taking stuff that can deal with super heavies then?

            Nah better to demand no one ever anywhere be allowed to play with them?

          • Shiwan8

            Nope. Good tools for wrong work tend to suck at it no matter how good the workman is.

            Take something that is not available to the faction? Because home made units fly so well in tournaments…

            Better to demand that I am not forced to play with them. There’s a difference that is apoarently too complicated for you to understand. 🙂

          • Chris. K Cook

            Who is talking about home made units?

            Use the units you have in an effective way. Try allies.

            Stop demanding GW give you an ‘I win’ button.

          • Shiwan8

            The armies are nids. Nothing outside main codex. Tell me how to win consistently against top tournament builds. What are the detailed lists and how do they work?

          • Chris. K Cook

            I thought were were talking about killing LoW here not out cheesing the cheese.
            Not every game has to be a tourny wang measuring contest.

            http://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/e47a8498f6803dd19ee4f456f53799effb6a6b9a52cbdbde25ccda11a6cd6d8d.jpg

          • Shiwan8

            I was and am still talking about killing a low. But hey, if you can’t figure a way to do it it’s fine. It just shows that it’s all talk and no action. I’m glad that you admitted it.

          • Chris. K Cook

            “Better to demand that I am not forced to play with them. ”

            If you were just refusing to play against them that would be fine. But you demand that NO ONE be alowed to play with them because you are butthurt about their existence.

            http://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/2a2233b78ff90babc80a7c3caf209299731227e917a5a6a75e0c475a66ff63ac.jpg

          • Shiwan8

            Actually I do not demand that. You also know that I don’t. Which means that you lied about that. Great.

          • Chris. K Cook

            Then why do you keep screaming about how they should never have been put in the game, about how they only belong in Apoc and about how they should be removed from the game?

            You know you have done all that. Which means you lied. Great.

          • Shiwan8

            Screaming? Where exactly?

            Apoc is optional and consensual. Mainstream units might not be.

          • I won’t compare a job to a hobby. There’s a reason why they are different. You might have to work but a hobby is for enjoyment or should be.

          • Chris. K Cook
          • Exactly

        • Karru

          Using super heavies and gargantuans isn’t a problem, the problem comes from people that either abuse them in abundance or the fact that GW hasn’t really balanced all the available super heavies and gargantuans yet. I personally like super heavies, they allow me to paint a real centre piece for the army and an ability field it more than once a year. I believe that people would start to complain less if GW would just give every army proper tools to deal with them without spending 25% more points than the one who fields the super heavy just to deal with it.

        • This works fine if both players want that type of game.

          • Chris. K Cook

            That’s the point really. Rather than demand that things you don’t like be removed form the game, work out with your opponent what things you do or don’t want to use.

            You know interact with the other human like a grown up?

    • My car’s speedometer goes up to 125. Doesn’t mean that I’m intended to use all that speed on any road I want.

      Just because you can, doesn’t mean you should. Nor does it mean you are intended to.

      • Chris. K Cook

        You are almost correct no you shouldn’t do stuff because you can, but it’s nice to have the option if you so wish. Not every on http://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/41d6a6bbaee4c2196c85b6a3fa162e93d1f84c68a08497a9bfa0fead79be8d38.jpg e will push their car to the limits. And then there are Autobahns. Some times it’s nice to just let her rip.

        sorry did I just ruin you metaphor?

        • No need to apologize, you didn’t. You are saying that how you play and how you drive should be based on context and circumstances. Which was exactly my point. Your phone should probably apologize to you for the autocorrects fails though.

        • Everybody has access to Autobahn so yah your example is like totally legit.

          • Chris. K Cook

            And every one owns a titan?

  • Admiral Raptor

    The grenade FAQ was pretty ridiculous. A lot of armies don’t have the tools to deal with garbage like knights and super heavies without massed melta-bombs. Luckily my group always requires both players consent before using any super heavy or gargantuan. It’s how the rules should have been written and improves the quality of games vastly.

    • Shiwan8

      I play armies that supposedly have means to leal with them, but then reality steps in and it’s either I get that one knight down and do nothing else or I ignore it and it proceeds to wipe my army.

      • Admiral Raptor

        That is exactly my experience against knights. Most attacks just don’t cut it against them. (Only my SM army has any real chance and that’s only if I list tailor hard.)

        • nurglitch

          Have you considered a unit of Dreadnoughts?

          • Pascalnz

            yeah, dreadnoughts fark them up in combat, heck charging even a lone iron clad is not a great prospect for a knight, 5 armoubane str 10 attacks… yikes

          • nurglitch

            I’d be more inclined to use a seismic hammer on a knight.

          • Djbz

            Six attacks
            Those things have 2 melee weapons.

          • Koonitz

            Only if the Ironclad charges, which was not what happened in Pascalnz’s example.

          • Djbz

            I misread that as the Dread charging.

          • Pascalnz

            I was saying the dread was getting charged. “charging a lone ironclad” well obviously you can read it either way HA! 🙂

          • Dreddies are way too slow to ever catch a Knight.

          • Pascalnz

            sure, but as a counter charge unit, or some defending an objective. that’s just the standard way to make your opponent come to you. hell, a lot of drop pods hemming them in….even one being dropped from a storm raven if you actually wan the charge.

            and of course charging into an ongoing combat. but sure.
            it’s planet bowling ball with no objectives or other units on the board.

          • Now this is a tactical reply and I agree with you. However I think lots of players think the Knight will casually stroll up into range of the dreddies.

            The good news is Leviathans can ride in Stormravens now if you’re willing to sink the points which can work.

          • Pascalnz

            leviathans are better all rounders[could easily kill a wraith knight on a charge], but for half the price an ironclad is pretty money if you’re main issue is imperial knights. ws5 vs 4 but with one less attack. an extra bs5 melta shot on the way in and 2 strength 8 impacts.

            is it worth more than twice the cost…. I’ll find out, I bought two of the suckers:)

          • Shiwan8

            Point for point the dreads lose. On top of that why would the knight let them charge?

          • Pascalnz

            the knight isn’t letting them charge, he’s charging them. otherwise it’s 6 attacks for the iron clad. and an iron clad could attack at initiative if he charged through cover unlike a knight.

            but pint for point. ? hell a unit of two ironclads could well end a knight. one could do it if it was lucky.

            a two ironclad unit getting charged has 10 attacks. 5 hit, 5 pen.[cause strength ten armour bane is crazy nuts] if any of the pens rolls a 6 that knight is gone.. and that’s one at full health.

            knights really really don’t want to charge dreadnoughts… they hurt a hell of a lot

          • Shiwan8

            6″ movement vs. 12″ movement. Just not going to happen.

          • Pascalnz

            oi vey. you put the slower things in places where the faster things need to go….like objectives, or near a unit they want to destroy.

            or you surround them with vehicles /drop pods or units.

            or you have them already in combat,

            or you jump out of a storm raven.

            Have you never had a fast unit get attacked by a slower one?

            also… my example wasn’t about them getting the charge on the knight, which I explained in my last post.

          • Shiwan8

            So, you need a deep striking tar pit that does not scatter, is fearless, lasts at least 4 turns in CC with the knight and it’s buddies. This is assuming that the dreadnought is not killed while going there. Or you use pod spam, being that guy, and the knight still is likely avoiding the dreadnought if it wants to.

            Ok, that was one of the 2 most cheesy armies in the whole game. Let’s do the same with nids and CSM. Any viable ideas?

          • Pascalnz

            this was only about other units you could use in a space marine army…goodness. how bad are you?

          • Shiwan8

            You are missing a point here. Back when Escalation came out loads of people claimed that Transcended C’Tan and Revenant titan were broken. Well, they were and are. Some people, people like you and mr. C claimed that it is not so. Comments ranged from “LTP” to “GTFO n00b”. Their arguments, like yours, are without exceptions based on the idea of “if my broken units can do it even in theory then everyones armies can”. The argument back then was 20 stern quard with meltas/gravs coming down with drop pods. Your’s is now an imaginary situation in which the knight is somehow locked in combat with something else in a place where your favorite unit get’s a perfect assault OR the knights user is dumb enough to just hand the kill to you for no reason at all.

            Again, tell us how to kill the knight with units from sub optimal armies. If you can do that then sure, you have a case. Otherwise I suggest that you either get down from the self made pedestal of yours and look at these things from the perspective that let’s you see how things really are.

          • Pascalnz

            The point I was talking about was units that space marines could take. I agreed that dreads can ruin a knights day. I hav e played knights a lot as well as blood angels and against opponents that use dreads and place then in annoying positions they really limit movement possibilities.

            Your lack of imagination is breath taking.

            Other armies do have some issues vs imperial knights. Flyrants on the sides can do some work, so can the flyrant with up to sixty gargoyles geared up to the nines.

            Orcs , hidden power fists. Two units of lootas on either side of the table…meganobs with gazgkul tanking.. maybe?

            Dark elder have melts and lances

            Tau have no problem s except melle combat eventually.

            Demons have some serious issues taking them out. But they win enough big tournies not to care.

            Chaos space marine s do have some melts but, they have a lot of other issues too 🙁

            Kdk are pretty good at using fearless fast blobs, or combo d thirster with lots of lasher Dino bots to lower attacks to one.

            Skittari have heaps

            Not sure about Harlie’s still hasn’t played them.

            As always it’s about forcing your opponent to make bad decisions incorporating movement terrain and objectives.

            A couple of armies have issues but knights are a symptom rather than the problem.

          • Shiwan8

            So, you try enforce your opinion by attacking the other guy. Great tactic. Grown ups will see through that though and I really do not care about opinions of the just born.

            Just to raise couple of points.

            For maulers to reach the knight you’d need around 6-8 of them and then something that hits s10 ap1-2 8+ times in combat on init 5+. That might kill the knight. At that point it’s way over 1000p just to get the knight down. That’s not really a solution.

            For flyrants to do damage it’s electroshock all the way. S6 does nothing against av13. So if 2-3 these actually get the job done it means that they hunt the knight all game which in turn means that even if the knight did nothing it’s still done it’s job and then some.

            Your other solutions are just as valid. It’s really not that any of these are problems for knights. It’s that you let the opponent control you by positioning badly. Dunno. Maybe it’s just that people who find things like knights being bad for the game are good enough players to not let these cheap tactics you presented to hinder them.

          • Why waste points ?

          • nurglitch

            Why not?

          • Pascalnz

            🙂 backing up your dreadnought claim. they aren’t the best unit, but they can do some work vs knights, giving them hard choices.

            BBF… some people really bloody love dreadnoughts and will run them regardless.
            or there are people that just happen to have some, or are newbies and think knights are just the bestest!! and can’t be beaten.

            this whole passage was about finding something a little off the norm to help mitigate knights.

      • There are few things that can quickly dispose of a Knight with the exception of Wraithknights and Stormsurges.

        • Shiwan8

          I would settle for slow ways or even reasonable tar pits but alas, playing an army that has no reliable anti-tank weaponry for reasonable cost nor a tarpit that can reach the knight….it is what it is.

    • Parthis

      I’d really like a FAQ for the FAQ at this point. Melta Bombs aren’t quite the same as Grenades, don’t follow the same naming, can’t be used in shooting and MBs are typically paid-for upgrades whereas grenades are typically built in to a unit.

      I’d really like them to confirm that a Meltabomb is a Grenade and that massed MB is indeed nerfed.

      • ZeeLobby

        Hopefully they’ll also supply a flow chart for FAQs of FAQs.

      • Admiral Raptor

        I agree with you. Melta Bombs should not be considered grenades. From both a rules point of view and a fluff one they should be a distinct type of weapon.

        A FAQ for the FAQs would be lovely. I’d rather just have a new edition with a fresh start though.

      • Commissar Molotov

        It’s listed as a grenade in the BRB. What more do you need?

        • Parthis

          Confirmation. As stated. For all the reasons stated.

          30K uses the BRB. 30K has many units that buy melta bombs wholesale. +25 points for my Death Shroud to each have a meltabomb. This FAQ ruling is at odds with army building in the wider game.

          • Commissar Molotov

            It’s not “at odds” at all. Purchasing multiple meltabombs for your Death Shroud simply keeps you from getting them potentially “sniped” out of the unit.

          • Parthis

            You actually believe that nonsense don’t you?

            You’re skewing the thought process of building an army because of the FAQ. The intent, cost and placement of Melta Bombs is there to support multiple bombs being used.

            Which brings me back to my original point; given that they’re named differently, used differently, acquired differently and carry a points cost, it’s reasonable to seek clarification.

          • nurglitch

            Nope, it’s one grenade per unit per phase.

          • Koonitz

            Imperial Guardsmen don’t come with Krak grenades standard. They buy Krak Grenades separately, just as you do Meltabombs.

            The intent, cost and placement of Krak Grenades is there to support multiple grenades being used.

            Your only argument is “Because I can buy them for whole squads, I should be able to use them by the whole squad.” But it just doesn’t work.

          • Exactly… This was a rules change not a clarification.

          • Wow dude…

            You don’t simply toss a bomb on a Stormsurge.

            You clamp it on !!!

          • You never fail to amaze me

          • Shiwan8

            Designed for 6th edition…

    • Karru

      This is the biggest problem with Super Heavies and Gargantuans these days. The problem isn’t really the stuff itself, it’s the fact that not everyone has the tools or access to super heavies themselves. Eldar players have D weapons and their own Gargantuan. Every Imp army has the Knight. Orks have overpriced Stompa and we don’t talk about ‘nids. CSM codex doesn’t even have super heavies in the book.

      My local group always warns people in advance about certain things when we play. For example, if I’m bringing flyers I will notify him how many I’m bringing, so he knows to take AA if he wants to. If we are taking Super heavies, it’s the same thing. If they don’t want to play against it, we compromise somehow.

  • deuce1984

    Good riddance. This was a horrible ITC (it was a community vote) call anyway. Wow, GW and I actually agree on something for once.

  • ZeeLobby

    One relic at least makes it a choice. Rather than, hey, just take what’s best.

    • Nameless

      I’d disagree, its only a choice if the relics where internally balanced with each other. why take the inferior item, except as a second relic?

    • Karru

      The choice comes with a price. Do I pay the point cost of 2 relics or just 1. As of now, you only take the one that helps your character to survive or give immense buff to units and leave the rest to gather rust.

      • The Jetbike for WS is only five points more than a bike but you’ll never see it coz Smashfacker needs his shield.

    • That is bull hockey. It’s just another SM nerf.

  • LordKrungharr

    You don’t need those untrustworthy Dark Angles for hit and run! Just need a flesh tearers strike force and take a sanguinary priest and Dante; they can ride and jump along with Thunderwolves and thunderLords as good as any Raven wingers. And you can take a bunch of pod walls and a dreadnought as troops for extra sauce!

  • Herkamer63

    I can see Tau getting the nerf bat, and as a tau players they need it. I can see supporting fire treated as interceptor and can’t shoot until your opponent’so next turn, and interceptor itself being raised a couple of points. I’ll admit, it’s too cheap, so if they up ito between 10-25 pts, you won’t see as much of it. To me, those 2 things are the biggest problems I see with tau, among other things.

    Eldar, however, I do not see GW making changes on. As much as I’d like to see bladestorm nerfed, multi lasers on wind rider squads being reduced to every 3 you get 1, wind riders actually being pulled from the troop section to fast with pt increase, and strength D only limited to the Wraith Knight (with cannons being worth 100 pts if taken, they will not get the treatment that they deserve. Mostly because, and I know people will disagree with me, Eldar is GW’s baby, and they will do nothing significant to balance them.

    • Herkamer63

      I almost forgot, wind riders should have an armor save of 5+. There’s nothing they have that makes them have a 3+ armor save. If that continues to be the case, reaver jetbikes should have a 4+ armor. Balance, right?

      • Djbz

        Well the +2 armour save is also given to Orks bikers (4+ from 6+)
        Harleqins gain a massive +3 armour save (4+ from having none)
        While poor Dark Eldar reavers only get a +1 🙁

        So, yes, either windriders need to be knocked down to a 4+ or Reavers should be improved to a 4+ (which is what they had in the Original Dark Eldar codex)

        • Herkamer63

          It just seems odd, and to 1 degree unfair, for Dark Eldar not getting some of this stuff. I can understand Craftworld Eldar being sturdier, but not that sturdy. Whereas Dark Eldar should be out running them, every time. But, they don’t even get that. I think they got screwed on so many levels.

          Back to Eldar: most of their rules and stats don’t make sense. Not that I don’t understand them, but it doesn’t make sense for them to have some of the stuff in the first place. I’m hoping I’m wrong on assuming no significant changes are coming, but I really don’t see it actually happening.

          • An_Enemy

            It’s the opposite really. Dark Eldar are the ones with all the industry, new tech, and hardier bodies.

            Craftworld Eldar are like the Imperium. They’ve been stagnant for thousands of years and they’ve lost more of their races technology than they’ve built themselves.

          • Very true

          • Agreed

        • Phil Kelly screwed over dark eldar. He has a huge Bonez for eldar.

      • Reavers should 3+ armor too.

    • Eldar is Phil Kelly’s baby

  • CatachanCommissar

    I just can’t bring myself to ever use special characters or relics in any games, even in tournaments, as it feels wrong and makes my army feel not unique. Does anyone else do this?

    • Karru

      I disagree with these actually. I do the opposite, using named characters and relics I make my army unique. For example I use Captain Sicarius rules for my 5th Company Captain, this allows me to represent some of my units for their valiant fights defending the eastern fringe. The problem with not using relics and named characters causes your commanders to be just generic guys that don’t make the rest of your army more than generic. They are not represented in rules like they are on the battlefield.

      • CatachanCommissar

        I could see changing the names and all, of the characters and he relics, and making them very unique. What i meant was people who use fateweaver fighting another fateweaver, or sicarius fighting sicarius. Or both army’s having the same relic with no thought put into it.

        I like your version more than just using the rules for rules sake. I name my characters so they’re not generic, and I know I’ll never run into another captain from the same company.

        I guess to sum up I like the narrative of every battle, and you can’t have a narrative with the same unique characters fighting each other (unless they’re clones, but even that is boring).

      • Pedro is really good now.

    • Special characters mostly are the suck now.

  • Jabberwokk

    Boy I’m glad I’m no longer on the buff/nerf roller-coaster(or the nerf/nerf drop of doom)

    I think Instead I’ll be enjoying Warmahordes Mk3 Lock and load hype this weekend.

  • davepak

    Oh, it was not just Tau and eldar players rejoicing – it was any player who was not abusing the rules …. about time.

  • Lord Solar Mac

    Probably changed due to the drop in sales of other units, ie: knights, etc.. I havent played on tourneys since 3rd/4th, so makes no difference to me. Heck wouldn’t it be easier for everyone to just run CAD with no allies? Not my opinion, but just a thought. As long as formations met the requirements in a CAD, you wouldn’t lose too many “buffs”. Don’t know if that’s how they run some tournaments now though.

  • Kolobius

    If I spend a ton of money for a single model like the Stormsurge, plus time to assemble ad paint it, then you can be sure I would field it as often as possible. But maybe that’s just me.

    • Koonitz

      Mindset, I think. Not just you, but certainly not everyone.

      Case in point, I have three Forge World Cerastus Knights. They cost me $900 (CDN). Collectively, I’ve maybe fielded them 6 times, with the Lancer only fielded in a single Apoc game (got a Heirophant bio-titan kill credit though, so bonus there).

      Don’t regret the purchase or the time painting them at all. They’re gorgeous models.

      I understand people’s thoughts on the Knights and, as such, only bring them out when my urge to field one meshes with the knowledge that my opponent would be okay with it.

    • You’re one of those guys.

  • I think it’s about GW wanting us to play their 40K not our 40K.
    People looking and looking for combos may not have been GW’s rules intent. It is for sure a symptom of the problem with their rules system. Why should this the Supper Friends have ever been a thing to begin with? In a way nerfing it down is a way to attempt to hinder Battle Brother with out removing it.
    Which, as I mentioned regarding the change to PotMS the other day, wouldn’t have been an issue if they had just clearly explained things. It would take only a few pages in a white dwarf or one of the coxed or rule book to actually show building army lists, with clear examples illustrating their intent.( How they want us to play their game.)
    But I could be wrong.

    • Drpx

      The whole allies matrix was a badly implemented element. Everyone should ally the same with everyone for balance purposes, and while I know some fluff bunnies might scream bloody murder at seeing Tyranids allied with something like Tau or even space marines, they’re only showing their lack of imagination given the amount of mind control, corruption and all out desperation in the setting.

  • Red_Five_Standing_By

    Allies would be so much more reasonable if they allowed you to field multiple armies at once but did not allow you to mix and match them. Armies can’t use each other’s vehicles and they can’t join each other’s squads.

    That would solve so many of the issues that the game has when you jump up to the competitive scene.

    Then we just need an Eldar nerf and the game would be pretty ok.

  • Dogberry1982

    Unless they make similar rulings for the other codexes, super friends is NOT dead. All the wolf star lists will still work, and you can still build a cent star, you just don’t get hit and run, which definitely hurts, but it doesn’t “kill” that list.

  • Drew_Da_Destroya

    There’s so much salt in this article.

  • An_Enemy

    When you say SHW might be more viable do you like… they’ll be viable at all now?

    Because from I can see limiting grenade usage didn’t fix the number of units that are less than 200 pts and can take out a Knight in one round of shooting on turn one or two.

    Until that happens a 375+ pt unit is not viable. Seriously, five combi Melta and you’re down a quarter of your points. Sure. A couple armies don’t have deepstriking melta, but as long as the five most played factions do its a dog army.

    • Ion shield is going to stop some of the ranged melta getting through… But if you go for overkill and have the right units it can happen.

  • silashand

    Good riddance…

    • Did you read the entire article or hoping GW will get it right ? Good luck if you’re hoping.

      • silashand

        Sure, they will break something else, but superfriends was flat out stupid and I am glad to see it gone. Yes, I read the article and d-bags will always find one cheese-ridden monstrosity to make other players’ games unenjoyable. So what?

        • Obviously you didn’t… Cause super friends is still a thing.

          • silashand

            Only if you take Dark Angels which isn’t exactly the same regardless what you said. Dude, get over yourself.

          • It’s Hit and Run pure and simple… Same thing.

  • sethmo

    Oh yeah those grenades were SUPER effective against supers.

    This article is whiney.

  • Sam

    “Chain of Command” – Only one independent character may join a unit, unless specifically stated otherwise.