AoS: New Point System Spotted

stormcast-hammer

Early sightings of the new Age of Sigmar points structure have been seen in the wild – Points Return to Warhammer!

We all new this day was coming and now we get the first glimpses of a new dawn for Age of Sigmar. Here comes the points:

Bols-Rumors-avatar

Just a reminder – if its not direct from a picture consider them rumors: Apply Salt as needed.

via Bass294 (transcribed from /TG/):

Age of Sigmar Orruk Points

 

“All units have an assigned role.
Leader, Battleline, Behemoth, Artillery, no role.
Depending on points you play you are required/limited on number of units of each type you can take. Lets say we play 1000pts battle.
In that case you are required to take
2+ Battleline units
1-4 Leaders
0-2 Behemoths
0-2 Artillery
Any number of no role units

Some units have both types so they take up both slots at once.
Some units can become battleline if you take specific leader

 

Somehow I missed the part about summoning while taking photos but as far as I remember it works along the lines:
We play 1000 pts battle
You can decide to spent any of those points on summoning. So lets say you take 700 points on field and 300 points are “held in reserve: as summoning.
You summon any unit within said 300 points limit later in game. Points are used for summon so no recycling.

 

Armies build entirely of one Alliance are given extra rule. Generals can take 1 extra ability out of 6 predefined ones. Also there are 6 artefacts that can be taken by heroes at no additional cost.

 

Each alliance has its own set of
1 Battle Trait
6 Command Traits for your general
6 Artefacts that “any (non-unique) hero can be given one…”

Battle traits are
Death: For each wount or mortal wound suffered by DEATH unit within your army that is within 10″ of your General or another Hero from your army, roll a die. On a 6 or more the wound is negated.
Destruction: Roll a dice in your hero phase for each unit from your army that is within 6″ of General or another Hero from your army. The unit can move a number of inches equal to the dice roll, as if it were movement phase, but cannot run. This does not affect their ability to move again later in the turn.

Chaos: Roll a dice when you pick a Chaos unit to attack in combat that is within 8″ of general or other your hero. On a roll of 6 you can add 1 to all hit rolls for the unit in that phase.
Order: You can re-roll battleshock tests (in battleshock phase) for friendly Order units that are within 12″ of general or other hero in your army.

 

(order artifacts. chose one, no roll)

1. Attack in combat before anyone else (one use potion)
2. Improve Rend by 1, not for mounts
3. +1 Damage for one weapon
4. -1 to To Hit for enemies you wounded (for rest of battle)
5. Once per battle -1 to Hit for all enemies agains model with this artefact
6. Heal 1 wound in each of your hero phases. “

Follow-up Post

“Points costs getting leaked:

” Prime 360
Judicators 160pts per 5
Liberators 100pts per 5
vexillor 200pts
heraldor 120pts
venator 120pts
Celestant /on dracoth 100/220
Prosecutors hammers/javelins 100/80pts per 3models
Retributors 220 per 5
Stardrake 500/600pts
Drake cav 240pts per 2 models with concussors as exception at 280

Nagash is 900
Archaon is 700

Arielle is 620

New unit names are Tree Revenants and one other type of Revenants 100 pts/5 both
and Kurnoth Hunters (or something like that) 180pts/3

Kairos 300
Lord of Change 260
Great Unclean 240
Skarbrand 400
Bloodthirsters 280-360 depending on version
Verminlord 300
Keeper of Secrets 280″

NO POINTS or battlefield roles for any forge world units in the book.”

In addition to these points the following pic of some new rules were also spotted:

via Tronhammer NZ

Age of Sigmar Rules

If these turn out to be accurate, wow! Let’s break down some of these new rules:

Depending on points you play you are required/limited on number of units of each type you can take. Lets say we play 1000pts battle.
In that case you are required to take
2+ Battleline units
1-4 Leaders
0-2 Behemoths
0-2 Artillery
Any number of no role units

This is VERY similar to the old school Force Org Chart from 40k and the other reveal of Battleline Units lends some support to that as well.

Somehow I missed the part about summoning while taking photos but as far as I remember it works along the lines:
We play 1000 pts battle
You can decide to spent any of those points on summoning. So lets say you take 700 points on field and 300 points are “held in reserve: as summoning.
You summon any unit within said 300 points limit later in game. Points are used for summon so no recycling.

Summoning appears to be a type of reserve system as well – we’re not sure how those units are summoned onto the board but if they come in from a board edge it could be like outflanking or standard reserves – again, much like 40k.

Armies build entirely of one Alliance are given extra rule. Generals can take 1 extra ability out of 6 predefined ones. Also there are 6 artefacts[sic] that can be taken by heroes at no additional cost.

Hmmm…Sounds like a “Warlord table” with bonus items to boot!

StormcastExtremisBattletomeENG02 Age of sigmar

These new rules seem to borrow very heavily from AoS Sci-Fi cousin. So is this AoS getting “40k’d” or is a throw-back to Warhammer Fantasy? Personally, I think adding points to the game is a good move, not because the points will bring balance, but because a Points System combined with the Army Construction rules will bring STRUCTURE to the game. Players will finally be able to show to to any store/hobby center/friends house and have a quick way to determine game size.

Players will argue that you could have done that already with the Warscolls (or however you wanted to do that before). We even posted some suggestion. Here’s the thing: You can still do that! But for players who might not be willing to try to build an army with the current “free-form” list building these new boundary lines will help them with army building.

This will also be a big boon to the competitive scene because it standardizes game sizes. Now, Tournament Organizers won’t have to come up with an extra comp system – they can just say “Age of Sigmar 2000 point tourney – standard list restrictions” and every player will understand what is going on.

I think with these new points we will all see a rise in AoS players. If your area was already heavy into AoS get ready to see more new players as well as some returning players. If AoS tanked in your local area don’t be surprised if you see a bump in activity after these rules hit shelves. It’s the Return of the Points!

 

Anyone want to throw out some guesses on how long until we get AoS Army books with points in them?

  • John Felger

    Shocking. Game doesn’t sell for reasons the community gives on FIRST day. Ok, waste a year…. start to implement what community actually asked for.

    • Its always been Games Workshops plan to implement this system.

      • Calum Wallace

        The bewildering part is why they didn’t do so straight out of the door: it would have avoided them a VAST amount of bad press.

        That’s coming from someone who’s turned up to play AoS with an army primarily composed of Clanrats.

      • John Felger

        So their plan was to drive down interest and sales? 😀 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZqaCEPwWGtc

      • An_Enemy

        It’s always been their plan to implement points when they said “there will never be points” for almost a year?

        Interesting.

        • GW reps said from the beginning there would be a competitive gaming supplement with points. Everyone said it was bull, but nobody said it would never have points

          • V10_Rob

            But they were always very coy and vague about the details of what it would contain and when it would happen. That kind of shock and awe marketing has it’s strengths, true, but GW has overplayed it.

            They’ve tried to give the impression they have amazing things under construction that will blow us away, but the impression we receive is that they don’t have a clear plan and are making it up as they go.

        • Problem with this is people take things too literally and rage quit or moan before waiting to see what happens. GW have never said there would be no points system. Everything we see or read here is always old news to HQ as they are about 6 months to a year in front of ourselves for releases and development

          • Shiwan8

            That would mean that it took 6 months for them to realize that butchering the setting and the game without reasonably good replacement was not a good idea and needed corrections. That would mean that they really did not intend to implement points system into the game.

          • Even when at Warhammer worlds launch of AoS they hinted at a points system. As I said The rep stated its been their plan all along. It just takes time to structure and properly balance rules etc. Why we never get every codex for 40k when a new edition launches. Its not exactly;y rocket science to see they know better than ourselves and have a plan, and that plan takes time to come to fruition.

      • V10_Rob

        1) Gut our brand and alienate our customers
        2) ???
        3) Profit!

        • On a practical level there were no fantasy customers left

          • Dennis Finan Jr

            Bingo. You bought some models 6 years ago for fantasy and demand everything lol

          • vlad78

            What incentive did they give us to renew our armies?

          • V10_Rob

            There’s a serious 9th Age league in my city, composed of jaded players who still love the game but finally got fed up with GW. And unlike the Age of Sigmar playerbase, they’re thriving and growing. Your locale may vary, of course.

            It’s not just the Warhammer Fantasy base; there’s been a serious knock-on effect for 40k, too. Players around here haven’t quit 40k, but the enthusiasm has definitely drained. And as some started taking a serious look at other game offerings, that drain has translated into hobby dollars spent elsewhere. The whole AoS debacle caused the scales to fall from a lot of eyes, and GW has got an uphill battle to bring them back. Even then, their monopoly is broken, and they would have to release the physical manifestation of every gamer’s wet dream to eclipse their competition like they did only a few short years ago. Genie’s out of the bottle, and similar metaphors.

            GW’s plan is to target first-time wargamers? Riiiiight. I’m sure they’ll move some units at purely retail toy stores, and at their branded showrooms. But when potential customers go anywhere near an actual (and far more numerous) hobby and gaming store, and see people playing with awesome looking armies and ask “Hey, what’s THAT?”… Well, the people gathered around those tables used to say “Warhammer” or “40k”. Not so much anymore.

            Those starter sets you and your buddy invested in are great, but with just the two of you it’s kind of stale. So you look out into the larger community, to see who else is playing, and find they’re not playing the same game. Or at least, not as often. Or maybe they’re playing what looks like an even better game. Either way, you want to be a part of that.

            Other players, who can entice newcomers in with mentoring of gameplay, showmanship of painted product, and most importantly the social interaction and fellowship. THAT is the most potent advertising vehicle, and GW squandered it.

          • I think you missed the point, there weren’t people buying fantasy models, therefore alienating that tiny number of people (some portion of whom just bought minis to paint or to convert for 40k) wasn’t a bad business decision.

          • V10_Rob

            Except that also alienated 40k players, either because the customer played both, or the purely 40k customer became worried that they were next and scaled back their purchases (like gamers always do when a rules changes and other uncertainties are on the horizon and we don’t know what’s going to be nerfed into the ground and what will be the new hotness).

            You paint the ending of 8th ed. as a prudent business move. You want to talk pure corporate bottomline? Alright. Old Fantasy wasn’t selling, and they finally decided they need to act. There were 2 ways to respond. 1) Cut their losses and end their support for that particular product line. 2) Analyze why customers weren’t buying Fantasy, and change the product to renew its appeal.

            Remember though, GW prides itself on not doing market research. So they killed old Fantasy, and released new Fantasy, without first discovering and addressing WHY the Fantasy market had withered on them. That wasn’t a prudent business decision, that was insular hubris.

          • Considering it has only been a year and we don’t know the breakdown of AoS sales vs 40k the alienation you are describing for 40k players hasn’t been demonstrated, and again, it doesn’t matter that the fantasy players are continuing not buying things. This isn’t me defending GW’s business practices as brilliant, I just find WFB players insufferable and am glad GW fired them as customers

          • V10_Rob

            Then just say that you find their tears delicious. At least that’s more honest than the eternal apologists trying to convince us (and more likely themselves) that this is all part of GWs cunning master plan.

          • ZeeLobby

            Here here. No company needs unpaid supporters.

          • Ben_S

            Surely it was a needless loss? They could have launched AoS alongside retaining 8th edition. Therefore, it seems like a bad decision.

          • We’ve already seen a substantial streamlining of the AoS lines, I don’t know why it would be beneficial to try to maintain selling and supporting a dead game that wasn’t earning back the cost of its shelf space. There isn’t a loss to GW, If what we’ve heard about how badly fantasy was selling is true

          • Crevab

            What have you heard? I certainly didn’t hear Fantasy was dead. Just that GW didn’t like how it was doing

          • What I heard was that the tactical squad kit was regularly outselling the entire fantasy line prior to end times

          • vlad78

            And end times was really successful, at least at the beginning, showing the wfb line was managed properly hitherto.

          • GW’s financials from that quarter didn’t show an increase in revenue

          • vlad78

            Sorry I meant the end times seemed to be successful and many retailers reported good sales while limited editions sold like hotcakes which showed WFB hasn’t been managed correctly beforehand. Now concerning GW financials, the numbers don’t make differences between wfb 8th, end times, AOS, people buying wfb products before they go away…
            End times sales dropped as soon as people realized it was really the end and not just an advancing storyline.

          • vlad78

            And is what we heard true, I seriously doubt it.

          • Red_Five_Standing_By

            They two lines would canibalize one another. Bad move.

          • Ben_S

            The ‘two lines’ are basically the same models. All they would really have needed to do is keep IoB (or even just the rule book) on sale. Then people could still play 8th edition if they wanted – and AoS could even serve as a gateway towards larger games. The only real change required is that they would have had to stick to square bases.

          • Zack Seiders

            Fantasy died at my area LONG before the end times went brewing.

          • vlad78

            8th seriously undermined it but AOS was the killing blow in mine.

          • vlad78

            Except wfb and 40k player bases are often the same. Alienating wfb players stopped warhammer dead in my area and convinced quite a lot of people playing 40k to look for alternatives.

          • Believe me, they really aren’t.

          • vlad78

            Why should there be, GW seldom improved the game, prices kept rising and the ruleset kept being mediocre at best and GW was gradually spoiling the original setting. AOS is just the lowest point of this trend.

          • And yet the players complained when they killed WFB. People who don’t support a game while expecting it to continue deserve to be disappointed

          • vlad78

            They did imho because lots of people still were interested in the warhammer genre, lore and so on… even if they weren’t ready to give more money fro a spoiled game.
            GW could give lessons on how to kill a successful game.

      • Ben_S

        No idea whether this is true but, if it is, they could have helped by making that clear from the start…

        • ZeeLobby

          Yup. Def agree. There was no clear indication that points were coming. We had some initial store attempts but definitely nothing official til months later.

        • I work for an independent stockists and that is exactly what our sales rep told us. It was always the plan, the game came out how it was allow quick circulation and get people to have a flavor of the rules

      • Shiwan8

        Nothing even remotely suggests that you are right on this.

    • HiveFleet Charybdis

      It’s almost as if, when the game was first released, it was designed by a company that thought models rather than rules sells stuff and then had a change in leadership and realised they needed to make decent rules.

      Oh wait

      • DeadlyYellow

        Remember: Gamers were only 20% of their consumer base.

        • ZeeLobby

          Lol. Yeah. They took a poll of 5 people, and only one gamed. Hence 20%.

          • DeadlyYellow

            Heck, they probably just had it posted by a watercooler.

          • Master Avoghai

            No : they gathered their conception team and asked who actually played. 😛

    • Dennis Finan Jr

      I read the first edition warhammer was the same thing. Roll it out then fine tune it.

    • vlad78

      And now they just have to get rid of all this 9 realms non sense and restore the old world and nuture it this time. Oops, they don’t have the writers to do the job anymore.

  • John-Ross Morland

    I won’t use them personally but each to their own.

    • ZeeLobby

      Which is awesome! I’m glad they’re supporting both options. Just wish they would have sooner.

      • Aezeal

        Yeah… you talk a lot of nonsense but can’t argue with this.

  • Alexander Slizewski

    Some of those points seem grossly over or under costed; 700 points for Gordrakk, the Fist of Gork? Compared to the godly Skarbrand at only 400? Granted, I understand that Gordrakk is a great character/deathstar, but those point differences seem a bit fishy.

    I expect there to be a lot of balance issues. 😛

    • Calum Wallace

      There always are a bunch of balance issues, balance issues are something you can only ever minimise, not eradicate, even in a game far simpler than AoS or 40k.

      Thankfully, GW are doing things like eratta again.

      Edit: Not claiming the example you point out is even remotely balanced as I don’t know the characters rules. Claiming that this sort of issue is not set in stone and can be fixed.

      • Alexander Slizewski

        I don’t know…

        I understand that it’s a new system, but after reading these rules it just dawned on me:
        for the price of one Nagash at 900 you could get three Great Unclean Ones for 720 points, with 180 left for extra meat; that to me is an obvious red flag 🙁

        I agree though that there will always be balance issues, it’s just a matter of how many and how severe

        • Koen Cambré

          Especially if what they write about summoning is true (having to pay for summoning out of your points)… Nagash just seems very steeply costed.

          Although if he doubles all the stuff he summons, that might be a reason for his extremely high point cost(he could actually generate you extra points then as well)?

          Oh well, it’ll all be more clear soon.

          • Alexander Slizewski

            yea that’s a good point: Nagash may be a character that’s only for fun battles, as his summoning will def be overcosted. Still, GW is now using eratta, so they could always adjust his point cost id needed.

            I’m expecting there to be balance issues anyways; it’s a new game after all, and with it comes a set of new, unrefined problems.

          • ZeeLobby

            I’d be shocked if any errata changed points. I’m not sure GW has ever done that before.

      • ZeeLobby

        The question has been and always will be: Will they even try?

    • Zack Seiders

      Then again Gordrakk has a simple yet VERY effective command ability. “3d6 charge and 2 extra attacks per weapon. Along with the variety of gordrakks attacks ” combining with maw crusha” that equal CRUNCH “word I have for a big time unit suffering massive damage that will cripple someone.”

    • Bulvi Nightbane

      This is why my gaming community will not be using the points system (we are looking forward to the expanded narrative play though). If you can just be civil and talk to each other AoS is actually very easy to balance. My local GW retailer has already said that store events will only use narrative or free play and he will discourage the use of the points system.

  • euansmith

    It is kind of nice to see the AoS game evolving before our very eyes.

    • Koschei

      I totally agree with this comment.

    • Anti-Gravity

      I never bought into the panic at the beginning by the organized play/tourney crowd who felt that AoS was the death of their armies/models/interest in GW’s fantasy rule set.

      I don’t know if GW necessarily planned this from the beginning, but I always knew there would be change and ongoing alterations – even that points would eventually return. I’m not talking about ‘editions’ either, I mean real fundamental shifts in the game philosophy. They just had to experiment, and ultimately it would be the fans who decided what was actually going to happen with it.

      • V10_Rob

        Yeah, that was totally the plan, take a hammer to their business and drive long-term fans to give up and/or migrate to other systems. It definitely isn’t the result of a panicked course reversal.

        Anyone else that ‘experiments’ with their game rules and system puts it out in public and outlines the direction they want to take things, releases draft changes, gauges the reaction and listens to thoughtful feedback (yes, you can ignore people who denounce you as RUINING EVERYTHING and rage-quitting).

        • ZeeLobby

          Yeah. In no way was it handled elegantly. Not that I’d expect GW to do so…

          • euansmith

            “Your father’s Warhammer. This is the weapon of a Beardy Knight. More clumsy and random than a blaster. An brutal weapon… for a less civilized age.”

        • Red_Five_Standing_By

          Well that is what happens when you have poor leadership. New leadership is in place. Things will improve.

    • CatachanCommissar

      I’m just hoping AOS evolves into a ranked battle system and moves to
      square bases, kinda like Kings of War. I think that’s the next step.

      • kloosterboer

        …or kinda like War of the Ring. Which allows you to take your LOTR models and play a “Massed Battles” game.

        I can see that happening with AOS, sure.

    • Zack Seiders

      Same. Before hand I said aos is primarily casual. Now they are starting to develop SOMETHING competitive “and a big middle finger for summon armies (lizardmen, nagash, any daemon/ necro mancer ect.) that I knew was coming.

  • Koen Cambré

    Looking forward to this. It seems like the bonusses for taking battallions (basically 40k formations) will cost points as well? That’s actually a smart thing to do for balance.

    Let’s hope the units themselves end up being reasonably balanced too…

  • ghettohamburglar

    lol all my iron jaw units are battle lines. SUCK IT

  • Sam Nolton

    I actually prefer the “bring what you want” method to AoS, but this does help big time for tournaments and organized play. I’m excited to see the full list! ….also it looks like smaller armies are still going to be the thing- what with an ironjawz boss on a maw-crusha costing 500~ points!

    I actually like that. I’m sick of 40k’s ever-shrinking points costs for units.

    • I get why (the barrier to entry for fantasy was insane unless you were playing warriors of chaos or ogre) but man is a skirmish sized game with fantasy minis a disappointing visual experience.
      Give me row upon row of ranked infantry any day

      • Sam Nolton

        Those days WERE a lot more visually striking. I wish GW had found a way to produce ranked minis en masse for a cheaper price.

        I prefer the round bases of AoS, sure…but it just feels like such a pale shadow of what Warhammer Fantasy once was.

        • Yeah, I feel like if they’d just done the core troops in boxes of 20 they would’ve made a teensy bit less money and kept a lot more people in the game/converted more 40k players where our 10 Man boxes are generally a functional squad

  • Andrew

    I’ve been looking forward to this but I’m not really happy at the summoning rules. The whole point of a Death army is that it can bolster its generally very weak forces by summoning extra things. But now all it is, is putting all my stuff in reserve, letting my opponent have the run of the field whilst I hope to pull off a summoning or two each turn. I might as well just bring it all on at the beginning. What’s the point?

    • euansmith

      I guess it will depend where you can place your summoned units.

      If you can send a fast moving summoner down field and then summon in a slow moving unit deep in your enemy’s half, that could be effective.

      Equally, you could maybe hide a summoner behind terrain and then summon a close combat unit when your enemy closes rather than expose them to shooting.

      Finally, if the points are anything like correct, your weak Undead force should be able to afford more minis than your opponent.

      • Andrew

        Yeah, there’s going to different solutions no doubt. It’s just worrying at first glance.

    • Andrew

      Also intrigued as to how that last ‘Rule of One’ works with something like Arkhan’s Curse of Years spell. That would potentially be 4-5 extra mortal wounds per turn and more that he’d be not dishing out.

    • If everything is pointed correctly then no one *needs* free bonus points.

      What’s the point?
      Units in reserve that can be summoned cannot be targeted off the bat.

      Units in reserve can be brought in in a more flexible manner as opposed to having to come in from your table edge.

      What can’t it do?
      Give free bonus points that one can use to create a grotesque points disparity (ie a crutch) in the game.

      Skeletons are for the most part better than my reavers because they get extra attacks and have an armor save.

      I cannot summon reavers.

      Undead players can summon more skeletons.

      If the points are correct or near correct then summoning is just a crutch that gives free extra points, sometimes grotesque amounts of free extra points.

      • Countdiscount

        And the benefit of being able to decide what to bring on through summoning during the battle depending on need is huge.

        You need to hold up this super powerful unit that’s chewing through your elite units, summon 20 skeletons. You need to kill a particular hero that’s buffing a unit nearby, summon a Terrorgist or something to tear it apart.

        You have a lot of versatility to summon depending on the situation you find yourself in, but there’s always the chance all your Wizards die and that 300 points you reserved for summoning is lost.

        I’m really liking that mechanic.

        • Exactly. There is an actual risk now. Which is causing some wailing and gnashing of teeth because it had no risk before.

          • Zack Seiders

            As some one who is trying to get an ironjaws list followed by some savage orcs/ extra monsters I could afford to not really care. Though armies that relied on spaming summon are now going to have adapt. “slann have other things going for them anyways besides summoning things”

        • Frank Krifka

          Well, not exactly.

          Most summoned models can only be brought on within 16″ to the caster and not closer than 9″ from an enemy model and can only be attempted one per turn.

          Not to mention that if you actually want to summon a bloodthirster when you need it, the spell can be failed (casting value of 10) or dispelled, or as you said before, the wizard could be killed.

          Not to mention the fact that you can easily start with a 40% army handicap on the board. I totally understand the need to tone down the summoning mechanic for competitive play as there was no rush and a huge reward. But if the rules are as reported above, summoning is practically useless. The risk is huge and potential reward is marginal at best.

          Now, if summoned units CAN be resummoned after being destroyed, then the changes make a lot more sense. The chance to recall one destroyed unit to the field once per turn is worth the increased risk.

          • Countdiscount

            What you’re describing is a mechanic that isn’t an instant win button, but far from useless.

            I also think it’s fine to imagine the effects of a rule, but until it’s been vetted by play rather than theory, you can’t come to such an extreme declaration as summoning to be practically useless.

          • Frank Krifka

            Normally I would agree with the concept that it’s not the best idea to shoot an idea down before it’s play tested. But this isn’t exactly a rule change that happens in a vacuum. We can think through this.

            Secondly, They’ve changed not one, not two, but three things with summoning if the above rules are totally legit as written (i suspect not, but we’ll see.):

            1. Summoned units now come for your overall armies points cost.

            This means that when the battle starts, you’ll be at a disadvantage in terms of board control, you’ll have less units to dead drop given your opponent the advantage at set-up. The idea of “not getting a unit shot off the board” almost never happens in AoS because very few shooting units have that kind of range.

            2. Spells can only be attempted once per hero phase.

            This means if you happen to be within 18″ of a WE Spellweaver who can auto dispel, there’s no chance of getting that unit onto the board that turn. Zero. so much for being able to “call” a unit down when you need it.

            3. Summoned unit once destroyed cannot be re-summoned.

            Given that most summoned units cannot join the battle more than 16″ from the caster, cannot be deployed within 9″ of an enemy, and cannot move in the subsequent movement phase, means summoned units are far more likely to be shot off the board on the turn they arrive. By the second and third turn, units are usually spread across the board making it difficult to find a spot to drop a unit down where it’s not going to get a face full of cannon, arrow, arcane bolt or on the receiving end of a charge.

            So if all three points above are true, the best time to summon units is during your first hero phase. If that’s the case, what the hell use is summoning? Especially considering it’s not an automatic drop, but a roll. With blood thirsters arriving on a 10+, there’s a good chance you’ll fail at least 1 of the rolls.

            If it was just the first 2 changes, in my mind, that would be plenty. That would curb the abuse of flooding the board with summoned units (which really was everybody’s complaint anyway). The third rule pretty much makes summoning a novelty rather than a usable mechanic.

          • Countdiscount

            I’m not going to do the back and forth essay wars. You can believe what you want, but I think you’re drastically overestimating the place summoning plays in these scenarios. Every example you give is paralleled in 40k reserves and deep strike mechanics and works just fine overall.

            There isn’t an army in AoS that relies on summoning. Even the undead don’t really need it as they get models replenished as part off their unit rules.

          • Frank Krifka

            AoS is not 40k. Enemy psykers can’t stop a deep strike if they roll higher than your reserve rolls. There’s no limit to how far away from your psyker a deep strike can come on the board. Why are drop pod lists so annoying? I tell you it’s not because they have to stay a minimum of 9″away from the enemy or can only come on the board one at a time….

            Armies don’t rely on summoning; strategies do. Nearly every build or general can build a a strategy around a mechanic that has an acceptable risk/reward ratio. Before, it was to little risk and too much reward. Now it’s completely the other way around. Like said, there’s virtually no situation where it makes sense to build a list with any substantial use for summoning (if the rules above are correct. I suspect they aren’t or there’s more to the picture.)

    • Red_Five_Standing_By

      You get to pick exactly which unit you need at exactly the right moment.

  • I am for pretty much all of this.

    The kneecapping to summoning *in a competitive environment* was needed. For narrative games, have at it, but players in narrative games are usually picking their opponents to do this with and will likely not be facing TFG summon spamming an entire second army in a few turns that goes on now.

    • Zack Seiders

      Kind of like how the ghoul army does things “the summoning is for lack of better term a support than a direct summon an entire list”. Though certain lizardmen units “slann” and the guant summoner chaos has has officially be nerfed “slann has other spells to work with OBVIOUSLY while the guant summoner has to be near a realm gate to pour daemons out anyways… and his main gimmik is he summons ALOT.

  • Koschei

    Question : Are the point cost for the minimum amount of troops in the unit. What happens to unit based upgrades like a standard bearer, musician and a chief etc?

    • If they are based on scgt and other comps like azyr then you get those things for free.

      The points should be x points for y mdoels. ie 50 points for 5 models. If you want 10 models you pay 100 points.

      • Koschei

        Thanks for the clarification

      • Ben_S

        I hope that’s how it works (nothing in the photos strongly suggests this), though it will still be a pain if you have to take multiples of the minimum rather than being allowed 8 models for 80 points.

  • CatachanCommissar

    This is just a test for 40k RUN

    • UrFrndJenn

      I would welcome this for 40k

      • CatachanCommissar

        Ur not my frnd Jenn. I love lots of rules; I like things closer to simulations than abstracts.

        • UrFrndJenn

          Lol! Why are you playing 40k then?

          • CatachanCommissar

            Because I don’t know what the grim darkness of the far future is like and can reasonably assume it is just like the rules hahahha

          • UrFrndJenn

            You don’t know what the age of sigmar is like either 😛 Also, isn’t catachan commissar kind of an oxymoron?

          • CatachanCommissar

            Yes, thanks for explaining the joke.

          • euansmith

            I’m not so certain about that, as the tabletop doesn’t seem to reflect the fluff very well.

          • CatachanCommissar

            I like the rules, I like lots of rules, sue me.

  • Countdiscount

    Love this.

    As long as the points make sense balance wise, these are some great structure rules.

  • OldHat

    YES! Can’t wait to get this book and start hosting tourneys at my LGS. And I have faith that FW will already have their points worked out ahead of time, so they seamlessly update their rules to allow them to be played in normal games.

    • I have heard it said that 2000 points is the tournament standard.

      • OldHat

        Just looking at the Sigmarite stuff, I guess that is a good sweet spot. Not a HUGE army, a la 8th Ed Fantasy levels, but not so small as to be Warmahordes either. Like a big skirmish.

        Can’t wait to see my Khorne BB points now.

        • Zack Seiders

          Long as the point system is nowhere near as bad as warhammer fantasy or in 40k I am golden.

  • Mike Tbone Green

    when i notice that there was no point system, or any kind of structure, i was immediately disenchanted with AOS. It was a shameful ploy from GW to try and make everyone buy more than they will need.

  • frankelee

    The Sigmar Surge is working.

  • Mike Linke

    Interesting to note:

    Points cost are per warscroll, not per model.

    I think we’re still going to see model count as a limiting factor, so a matched play army will require you to mind three seperate comp scores: model count, point cost, battle line tax.

    This also means that summoning isn’t affected that harshly. You have to pay points for the warscroll you want to summon, but it looks like you can still allocate models to the other scrolls.

  • Jason Anderson

    While summoning did need balance I don’t like paying points for units that have a chance to never get put on the table.

    There should always be a risk vs reward dynamic. for example maybe for each 50pts you allocate for summoning you could summon 100pts or 75pts of models that way there is a reason to summon and not just take them in your army

    • euansmith

      Effectively they are deep striking reserves. Summoning gives you options as to where and when your troops arrive on the table. This should go a long way towards offsetting your army suffering any inferiority before the reserves arrive.

  • Aezeal

    Of course the points WILL give more balance.. maybe not optimal balance but it will be an improvement in balance too.

    • ZeeLobby

      My jaw will hit the floor I’d they actually iterate on them as well.

      • Aezeal

        They are doing a printed book again… and they still do not like to disagree with their printed stuff (seeing the recent 40K FAQ).. that combination does not make continuous balancing likely and that is a shame. The online warscrolls would have been a perfect start to keep balancing (like once every 3 months, it would be annoying if you played and won.. and a sudden update meant you had too much points fielded… but I’d even take that risk)

        • ZeeLobby

          Yeah. As much as we disagree at times, there’s no reason we can’t agree on updated rules. I still think the fluff is silly, but I’m anxious to pull out my fantasy army again.

  • I strongly suspect that, after a solid year of bad press, negative community interaction and flatlining sales numbers, this is going to prove too little, too late.

    Sometimes a faster horse is the right answer.

    • Red_Five_Standing_By

      Honestly, more people

  • jasonsation

    I have a theory that the reason we didn’t see points day one is because they needed an intermediate period where they could phase out old models. We’ll see if grail Knights get points, but I’m guessing probably not. They’ll only be viable in the “non-point” system. That way they can move forward with the models they want to keep but still give an option to people with Tomb King and Bretonnia (and other phased out models) to keep playing with their investments.

  • Joel McGrath

    In my area, everyone plays AoS mainly with only a game of 40k here and there. Nobody is excited for a points system, except for the odd person who only plays 40k.

  • Jesse Ash

    I am a huge fan of AOS and I still love 8th edition. However there are a few issues I see with these new rules.

    The first rule of one should have read something like: “Each spell can only be successfully cast on a unit once,” which would have negated the problems of magic while keeping it competitive. With the state that it is now, magic becomes useless and doesn’t scale at all.

    Secondly, from what I can see, the game is going to run into the same issues 8th had and 40k has. 8th and 40k had/have a huge problem with armies generally all following the same formula and any deviations lead to them being almost unplayable competitively.

    Also summoning has taken such a large hit (they needed a nerf but not this bad) that it has become nearly useless. Keep in mind that if you fail to summon them you can’t try again (even with another wizard!) until the next turn.

    Anyway my rant is over. I know I can just stick to non pitched battles but I fear that where I game (a GW store) that will not be possible. I hope I am wrong (especially about the first rule of one) about my woes and would love to hear others perceptions on the new rules.