Goatboy’s 40k: Kharnageddon!

m1GWNnz

Goatboy here again and this week’s FAQ fully answered the question:  Is Kharn the Betrayer the ultimate bully?  YES!

Does he always give the roughest purple nurple?  Does he always get the Eggo during breakfast time?  The FAQ stated that Kharn will always hit on a 2+ – no matter what if they are invisible, WS 100, or making him fight with one hand tied behind his back.   This is pretty cool and fluffy as most people played it that way.  I have a lot of memories of Kharn popping out a Rhino, charging some Guardsmen, and doing 7 wounds amongst all the combatants.

The question I have today is – how the heck can we use Kharn to even do anything.  We all know if a Special Character isn’t attached to a thunder beast of some sort they most likely won’t get involved in the punch dancing we call the Assault Phase.  So how the heck do I get this murder beast into play?  I know overseas there has been a rather big usage of this jerk face in the KDK star lists we see and that is most likely the best way to engage the ultimate Skull Collector.

khorne-chaos-kharn

Betrayinating!

Let’s look at what Kharn adds to anything he is attached too.

– He hits everyone on a 2+ with a weapon that is AP 2, +1 Str, and even Armourbane.   Any 1’s hits his friends in the assault – but as he is most likely not instant death they can easily be “soaked” by a dog or two.  The Armourbane aspect is pretty interesting as it gives the KDK star an answer to a Knight that isn’t Psychic based. Oh is that an annoying Culexus hanging out – come meet Kharn and his 2+ hitting axe of jerkdom.  What is that D slinging Thirster thinking about doing?  How about eating some axe nonsense in his jingling bits.  It’s basically like Kharn took all the Tau marker lights from everywhere, shoved them in his helmet, and then said EFF YOU to invisible jerks.

– Hey if you are targeted by a Psychic effect you get to Deny the Witch on a 2+.  This is pretty neat as it helps you ignore the whole other issue with the list that is presented.  More on that later.

– He even has an invulnerable save which is good since Sanctuary can make him more of a pain in the butt to deal with.

– His Warlord Trait isn’t bad when you are looking at wanting Rerolls on a Death Star.  Hatred is pretty dang good.

Preheresykharn

Meh for the Meh God?

Now Kharn isn’t completely awesome as he still is a Chaos Space Marine Special Character

– He is on foot – which means your star will go -2 inches when charging through cover.  Luckily he has grenades so his Axe will always be going off at Initiative 5.

– He isn’t a Sorcerer so while he can kick butt he doesn’t give anything really extra unless you take him as your Warlord.

– He also has a Plasma Pistol which feels like it adds too much to his overall cost.  He is running a bit to high for a Special Character that isn’t fast moving, covered in fur, and hanging out with some poetry reading angel fans.

250px-FleshHoundofKhorne1

Kharn Loves Puppies!

While there are some issues with the character I still think he can be a big help to the current KDK Dog star nonsense we see around and about.  This is the army for the person that doesn’t want to bring a ton of summoning daemons to an event and still wants to go out, kick some butt, and scream Blood for the Blood god.  I know there are Sorcerers in the list – but with the way Chaos Space Marines are working now they need some psychic help.

KDK Gorepack/Cyclopia Cabal/Crimson Slaughter CAD

KDK Gorepack
Bikes X 3, Meltagun X 2
Bikes X 3, Meltagun X 2
Flesh Hounds of Khorne X 10
Flesh Hounds of Khorne X 10

Cyclopia Cabal
Sorcerer, Veteran of the Long War, Bike, Spell Familiar, Force Axe, Lvl 3
Sorcerer, Veteran of the Long War, Bike, Spell Familiar, Force Axe, Lvl 3
Sorcerer, Veteran of the Long War, Bike, Spell Familiar, Force Axe, Lvl 3
Sorcerer, Veteran of the Long War, Bike, Spell Familiar, Force Staff, Lvl 3
Sorcerer, Veteran of the Long War, Bike, Spell Familiar, Force Staff, Lvl 3

Crimson Slaughter CAD
Kharn the Betrayer – Warlord
Sorcerer, Bike, Spell Familiar, Force Stave, Lvl 3, Balestar (This is where Khan’s rule of always passing on a 2+ – it isn’t modifying the roll – i.e. adding +1’s to the roll – he just always passes on a 2+)
Cultists X 10
Cultists X 10
Rapier Weapons Battery X 3, Laser Destroyers X 3

Kharn

Kharn-Kennel Tactics

The idea here is to make either a 2 stars that can move around, support each other, and cause issues as needed.  One can get Kharn to get Hatred while the other can have Prescience cast upon them by the Sorcerer that is forced to “hang out” with the ultimate Jerk and keep him “occupied”.  I don’t know how well the list would perform but it seems like it might actually do enough work to get the job done.  It isn’t “scared” of Knights as it can easily have Str 8 attacks from massed Staves or from an enraged Kharn barreling in.

Spell Roll
Biomancy at min 2 Sorcerers.  Can do 3 if needed but most of the time you need 2 for each “star” to have a shot at Endurance.  Roll them on 2 Staff wielders as Iron Arm gives them AP 2 and sitting at Str 9 attacks.
Divination on the Crimson Slaughter Sorcerer – this is a lock and most likely what you roll first.
Sanctic rolls on at most 2 of them depending on if you want to split up into different stars.  Sanctuary, Hammerhand, Gate, and even Vortex of Doom are all strong spells. Cleansing Flame can be really handy especially with a Divination throwing Sorcerer.  I personally know how good Misfortune can be.
Telepathy is what you might want on 2 Casters depending on what they roll first.  2 hits of Psychic Shriek will be helpful as well as any Shrouding or Invisibility.

I went with Laser Destroyers as you have an option to hurt things like Rhinos and other pain in the but boxes.  Plus you can get lucky and pop/hurt a Knight from across the field if needed.  I think these models are also one of the few “good” things Chaos Space Marines can get.  I had a thought on using some extra Lascannons from left over Centurion builds mixed with Ad Mech tank legs.  Plus Green Stuff and a little bit of Goatboy Elbow grease.  I am annoyed that the only way Chaos seems to work well is either utilizing some kind of FW nonsense or shoving a ton of Psykers into a unit or two.  I am hoping the rumored “update” makes them good so I can feel like actually playing Chaos instead of just trying to out spell sling my enemies.

SKULLS FOR THE SKULL THRONE!

skull-wallpaper

Kharn’s Land Raider Upholstery (the man’s got style)

  • Latro_the_Zombie

    Put him in a dreadclaw drop pod with the possessed you have to have with the slaughter cult

    job done.

    • LordKrungharr

      That won’t work as you can’t deploy allies in allied transports anymore. And Kharn is (sigh) not in the Daemonkin book.

      • Latro_the_Zombie

        Oh woot, i forgot about that. I thought it was for dedicated transports DC is a FAC

  • wibbling

    Can you take an auxiliary formation without taking a core?

    • Morollan

      Yes, it’s still a formation and can be taken in its own right

  • Paul James Harrison

    I never take Kharn as my warlord, everyone always aims everything at him, they then get slay the warlord and get to kill my big hitter. I put him in a speeding Rhino with an 8 man squad of Zerkers. Drive up to some cover near their target, de-bus, then next turn walk out of cover and then charge. I’ve taken a few HQs out with this tactic. My Warlord is usually a flying daemon prince.

    • Djbz

      Yeah Khrn as warlord is a bad idea,
      He’s already terrifying enough to draw a tonne of fire there is no need to make him give the enemy bonus points as well

    • Pyrrhus of Epirus

      i love kharn in my CSM army, but you try kharn in a rhino with some zerkers vs any tau or eldar, hes not gonna have a fun time and certainly wont be alive to charge next turn.

  • Charon

    As much as I like Kharn always hitting on a 2+, I hope it gets cancelled. They made a general rule how to handle contradicting rules and now they already start breaking it. I want a cohernt rule which works in every single occasion. The o0nly thing this one does is creating another “yeah I know the general rule but maybe this is intended like Kharn?” making the general rule basically worthless in an argument.

    • Chaosrex

      SHUT, YOUR, FACE.

      Nobody touches Kharne’s ability to hit on a 2+, NOBODY.

      • Shiwan8

        How about Kharn’s ability?

    • Shiwan8

      Still no.

      • Skathrex

        Just for giggles:

        Still yes.

        • Shiwan8

          It is your right to keep insisting on being wrong. I choose to be right. Both choices are fine in this kind of trivial matter.

          • Skathrex

            Nah, you are the one choosing to ignore the facts that are laid before you. you can say you are right all you want, but that doesn’t change the fact that you aren’t. Just because you say so, doesn’t mean it becomes true.

          • Shiwan8

            Well, the FAQ proves you wrong. Prove that the FAQ is a lie or just accept that you failed again to follow the rules.

          • Skathrex

            Failed again? Where did I failed the first time? (Well I can say I certanly have misplayed some rules somewhere in some of my games)

            And you missed the point. The argument Charon and I made was that the Khârn ruling was a bad one, because it ignored what the previous FAQ rulings tried to establish. A new rule when Rules directly contradict each other.
            It was feedback (as I wrote on the Facebook page too) because , bevor the Khârn ruling it was good design, afterwards it was bad.

          • Shiwan8

            You failed at making a proper argument. You 2 refusing to think does not make your case stronger when the opposition is not that lazy.

            Bad how? It follows the rules very explicitly. There is no contradiction, just an exception and a rule. Why is this too hard for you to understand?

            The Kharn ruling is exactly the same now as it was before. Why is it bad now it it was good before?

          • Skathrex

            How is failing to make a (in your way) making a proper argument = failing to follow the rules. You seem not to understand what we are saying or what it is we are criticizing.
            We follow the rules, but we argue that the Khârn ruling was bad in a way that it contradicted a new (well designed) rule they made within the FAQ. So therefore it is bad design.
            Its not the effect of the ruling itself that interests me (I don’t care if he hits on 2 or 3s), its the usage of the guiding rule for further rules arguments. If they wouldn’t have made the rule “new”, I would have been happy too, because Codex>Rb is easy enough to follow most of the time (except when 2 rules of 2 Codexes collide).
            But first making a new rule that overrides or disregards the old one and then disregarding the new is just bad design.

            I know, I know you don’t see the new rule as a rule, but thats the discussion we are currently having somewhere else.

    • Djbz

      No the ignoring invisibilty makes sense as Khorne wouldn’t allow you anyone to hide from his favourite mortal champion.
      It just needs the wording altered to
      “Kharn’s melee attacks always hits on a 2+ and ignores any other effect that would modify his to-hit rolls”

      • Charon

        And what happens as soon as he hits a unit with “can only be hit on a natural 6 nd ignores any other effect that would modify his to-hit rolls”?
        Again a condundrum. Why? Because GW cant be arsed to stick to their rules, Even when they are pretty clear.
        Conflicting rules canel each other is perfectly fine and clear. It solves a lot of problems.
        Creating exceptions like this creates a lot of other problems and basically makes the general rule useless.
        They are basically saying “use this general rule for everything except for X, Y, Z and you cant use it for new condundrums cause it could be a situation like X, Y and Z and we decide on a case by case basis.”

        • Chris Eyler

          I’m under the impression that he would still hit on 2+ (on his turn), as anytime there is a direct conflict between codices, the rules for the player whose turn it is override the other player’s rules. So, in your example, he would hit on a 2+ on his turn, and on 6s on his opponent’s turn.

          • Shiwan8

            No. It works like that only when there are 2 simultaneous things happening and this is not a case like that.

          • Charon

            Why? this would be a 3rd solution, again ignoring the general rule “cancels out”.
            That is exactly why it is a mess. They already made an FAQ general rule for handling this exact situation. Why now start with exceptions all over again?

          • Skathrex

            I am honestly really curious. Where does this rule originate. As a Magic Player this is rather intuitiv for me, but I haven’t found anything to the point of sequencing or a “stack” in Warhammer.

        • Shiwan8

          Hitting on 6s would be a modifier to hit rolls?

          There is no conundrum. You just want to rules lawyer this for some reason. To get some benefit from another combo that would end up being debatable if this was debatable? But, alas, this is a clear case.

          • Skathrex

            Jep, seems really clear to me, but somehow you choose to ignore it.
            You want to see a rule written before its used -> one is shown to you -> you claim it works just for the example case
            But somehow you imagine new rules without any bases and see them as true.
            Or for the Khârn Example. Lets not talk Invis vs Khârn, lets talk Warlord Titan vs Khârn, what about that. Its not Codex > RB

          • Shiwan8

            Do you have any evidence to back your claims with? If you do, present it. If you fail to do that all you managed to do was that you showed us all how hollow your claims are. There’s no real middle ground in this.

            At this point for this to not be a clear case at least 1 of the following has to be true:
            – Invisibility does not modify the number required to hit a unit in melee.
            – Kharns rule that fixes his to hit rolls to 2+ does not exist.
            – The order in which things happen in the game does dot exist in any form or situation.
            – GW faq writers are liars (proof needed) and specifically lie in this case (proof needed).

            If none of the above is true you are wrong.

          • Skathrex

            This is a really funny way of argumentation.
            You always see yourself in the right. Never back your own claims and your main argumentation is that the other person needs to prove their claims. Its a bit like: “Prove to me there is no God!”

            I asked if there is any rule for sequencing. I never found one.

            Hitting on 2+ is the same as getting hit on 6s. Both are no Modifiers but fix values. No one takes precedent.
            In the Case of Invis, I agree you could use Codex>RB, but that “Rule” is not always true and has a lot of exceptions (since the FAQ)(the Quantum Shielding issue).
            In the example with the Warlord Titan I still await an answer how that should be ruled.

            If you can provide me with an answer as to where I can find a rule to sequencing (that I can show to an opponent who doesn’t know it too), I am perfectly happy to use that.
            Atm my problem is, how to rule unclear rules on the fly. Codex > RB doesn’t always work and already has exceptions.
            Rules canceling each other was the most elegant one till the Khârn Ruling.
            Sequencing, while the most unelegant rule still usable if proven.

            And I can direct you again at the FAQ that states when there are 2 rules contradictiong each other, they cancel each other out and none of them takes effect, but lasttime you just ignored it.

          • Shiwan8

            So, you have no evidence. Well, mine is the FAQ. No evidence < evidence.

            Since the invisibility is on before assault phase the rule Kharn has is applied after invisibility and Kharn hits on 2+. Logic, you should look into that.

            The FAQ presented a specific exception that no-one thus far has not been able to duplicate with other rules. I ignored it because it has nothing to do with this.

            I have no idea of this titan issue of your so unless you can actually be bothered to present it in a sensible form I'm going to continue to not care about it.

            In the future it would help you if you'd read the rules. I'm willing to bet that it will not change anything because you are pretty evidently against any information that does not cater to your need to be right but at least you'd be able to play the game correctly.

            http://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/69c13a35176a4d5e96ec85341512a5be8409168fe762d56cc149f8bafcf6dcd7.png

          • Skathrex

            Finaly! Thank you! A piece of Information to back up what you say.

            Now to content.
            I see where your comming from with sequencing, BUT just because something “comes first” doesnt mean it gets cancelled out by something later.
            So just because the Invisible was on the Unit first, there is no Ruling that Khârns rule would override it.
            Again, unless there is something I didn’t see (and again with the FAQ the discussion is pointless)

            Or to the Warlord Case. A Warlord Titan has a special rule which says certain Unit types (e.g. Infantry) only hit him on 6. This is a static rule, the same as Khârns.
            Would you say that Sequencing should be used as well?

            The FAQ states:
            Q: What method is used to resolve potentially conflicting special rules (e.g. a Dark Talon’s Statis Bomb’s Vast Stasis Anomaly vs Reanimation Protocols)?
            A: The two rules cancel out and neither is used.

            Now if you just don’t look at the example given for the Rule and just see the Rule (which it is), then its clear that it SHOULD also work in the Khârn-Invis case which it doesn’t, which in turn means instead of becoming the best usable and most elegant of the 3 before mentioned rules it becomes as useless.
            It has exceptions (like Codex>RB) and therefore you know have 3 Rules which always might or might not aply to a specific case and unless you have the FAQ you have no way of knowing which one to apply. (Maybe just use the Case where 2 out of 3 apply)

            And to the last part…pls…pls for the sake of an argument just stop trying to beliterate or insult me.
            Yes I have read the rules, no I am not stupid, yes i can think and I know how logic works. Just because I see things diffrent than you are doesn’t mean I am stupid or gives you the right to question my Intelligence.
            We could do this all the time to each other because from my point of view I could say the same things to you.
            On my last post I responded in an ill manner too, because I was hot tempered and that was wrong.
            But after your last post I had to take 10 minutes to cool me off again, because of the arrogant way you wrote it.

    • Damistar

      Hasn’t hitting on 2+ been Kharn’s ability for multiple codexes now? I know it was in the 5th edition one.

      • Charon

        Dont see the relevance? Abaddon was immune to spawndom and daemonhood results in the last FAQ (same codex!), in this one he is not.

    • denzark

      Invisibility – a psychic power. Makes buckets of sense for Kharn to be able to see through this psychically induced cloud and hit straight and true.

      • Charon

        fluff =/= rules

    • Frank O’Donnell

      Welcome to 40K, I’ve never had a problem with the rulebook it all the stuff that comes after it that ruins the game.

  • Pointed Stick

    a Khorne list with six sorcerers, lovely.

    • Chaosrex

      Think of it as Blood Shamans, offering skulls and sacrifices to call for Khorne’s support against Spell throwers.

      • Shiwan8

        No.

      • Skathrex

        You might, when there are 1 or 2. At 6…they are just berserkers offering skulls and so on

    • OldHat

      Right? Khorne does not approve.

    • ZeeLobby

      They tell us to stop whining that our codex is bad and to play better. This is what you get.

  • Sebastien Bazinet

    Legit question here: how can this be a KDK list when the warlord is not from the same codex? Also damn you GW for not including Kharn as an HQ in KDK….

    • The list is CSM Primary. It’s being called a “KDK list” for arbitrary reasons (sort of Khorne themed… barely)

    • Simon Chatterley

      Kharn has no place in a KDK list. He isn’t trying to become a vessel for a bloodthirster to steal (which is the full point of the characters in KDK)

      Kharn is something else and Khorne has other plans for him. He does fully deserve his own cult of nastiness but not KDK.

      • Sebastien Bazinet

        What characters? All we got is lousy Skulltaker….

        • Simon Chatterley

          Every single HQ choice. Every single unit “champion”

          KDK is a great faction, just not for Kharn

  • LordKrungharr

    Just remember that no blessing Or malediction will have any effect on Kharn, though it would affect his unit. The dogs make a great slingshot for him though and I will indeed give that a whirl. Not with friggin sorcerers though! Lord of skulls all the way, and hounds make great bubble wrap for that too 🌽

  • foulestfeesh13 .

    Khan can’t be taken in a crimson slaughter detachment because of the renegades of the dark millennium special rule.

  • euansmith

    With his big flat helmet and his dangling fox tails, I get a real Mod Vespa vibe off Kharn.

  • Shiwan8

    Here is a short guide on how to make a khorne list:
    – Everything that can have it has a mark of khorne or daemon of khorne rule.
    – All other units are vehicles.
    – A unit that does not have an AV value and can not have a mark of khorne or daemon of khorne rule is not a part of that list.

    Using these 3 basic guidelines you may now try to make an actual khorne list instead of that travesty you posted.

    • Andrew Thomas

      Why not have him QB a unit of Blood Slaughterers? Grants him cover and brings the fight to him. Sure, they’re walkers, and can only drag in MCs and Vehicles, but you know that whatever you do drag in is dead.

  • Horus84cmd

    “KHAAAAAAAAAAAARN!”

    What? Someone had to say it….

  • Guillermo Cordido

    i remember one time against chaos SM and kharn charging longstrike, man 6 on the overwatch with rail cannon and 6 to wound, then a roll of 2 on invul, bye bye kharn…

  • Kazzigum

    Kharn cannot be brought in a Crimson Slaughter detachment, as he has Veterans of the Long War. So….

  • Jacob

    You mix Kharn with sorcerers?!?! That’s Heresy even for heretics.