40K BREAKING: Chaos Marine Detachment Rules

black-legion-CSM

At long last, the Chaos Marines get a “decurion” to call their own. Take a look traitors!

Here’s the Detachment everyone has ben waiting for:

images via Khadorblood 9-5-2016

TH-black-crusade-detachment-2 TH-black-crusade-detachment-1

Ok, so that’s FREE Hatred (Imperial toadies)ย for the entire detachment, and FREE Veterans of the Long War if the unit had access to it. then you get a roll on the Chaos Boon table each turn for a model with the Champions of Chaos rule.

~It’s not a couple dozen free Rhinos, but then again – what is?

 

  • sethmo

    In before the whining.

    The warband gets obsec on every unit, add in one more aux and combine the dec traits and you have a nasty nasty force here.

    • Challi T-bone

      I didn’t see where they get OB sec. I think this is pretty decent upgrade to the CSM

      • mike

        I think they’re assuming all battleforged get obsec. I’m constantly pointing this out to people in my local group, people make the mistake all the time. Yes this is battleforged but no its not a combined arms detachment or allied detachment.

      • mike

        Its not in this, but apparently that’s the rumor for the Chaos Warband, it gets obsec.

        • jeff white

          cult grots

      • Matthew LeBlanc

        It’s on the warband data sheet. Along with roll twice and pick one for the boon table.

        Maelstrom of Gore is also fun.

      • shiwan

        Does it challenge any of the new style marines? How about eldar? Tau? No. KDK is not that good and unless there is something godly in those formations (apparently there’s not since they think a mutilator + a warpsmith is a great combo) KDK will run through these.

        • Nathaniel Wright

          lol playing against eldar and tau at all, better to take the loss and get yourself lunch

          • shiwan

            Well, yes, but it would be good if it was not so.

        • Skathrex

          Do we want that?
          I don’t want an Eldar lvl Codex, because I don’t want opponents go: ” I don’t play against CSM”.
          Its a pretty good boost to CSM and I would think I prefer running those compared to CSM Daemonkin.
          And you can always just add Formations (Gorepack) from KDK.

          (Btw, who looked at the Warpsmith Formation and wanted Mutilators with that)

          • Karru

            No one? Mutilators are absolutely useless, even more than most of the melee units in the game! For god’s sake, Grots are better in melee than them! 55pts for a 2 wound terminator that has to footslog across the table thanks to the fact that the Warpsmith cannot Deep Strike and he has to be within 8″ of the unit to get those extra attacks.

          • Skathrex

            EXACTLY! That was my point. Don’t compare the worst with the best. At least try to do something good.

            I would never take the Warpsmith in that Formation with Mutilators.

          • Tesq

            you forgot t4……

          • Karru

            2 Wound Terminator, like I said.

          • Andrew Thomas

            Fist of the Gods. You don’t have to footslog. But yeah, unless they give them “Daemon of…” upgrades, or effing grenades, they’ll still be sub-par.

          • aspsnake

            Not every formation needs to be good – this is not even a core formation anyways. Sometimes you have just tax units in formations, like warpsmith, it’s also fine. As a third point – formation doesn’t force you to put warpsmith to mutilators, you can join a completely different unit that will flat out next to deepstriking mutilators to give them extra attacks turn 3. And as the last point – you can build around this, e.g. put them all in a land raider. Don’t forget that these are only formations, we haven’t seen the new actual units yet, – maybe mutilators are now twice as cheap and have twice as many attacks and an extra wound, you never know with GW :p

          • Karru

            What new units? The only things that are “new” in the book is the Renegade Knights.

            Indeed, not every formation has to be good, but it would be nice to be able to field them in a normal game without wasting points. I mean, look at the Space Marine formations, they barely have anything that is completely useless, outside of the Assault Centurion formation and the Strike Force Ultra. I’d like to be able to field my detachment with more than 2 formations in a normal game without having to take CAD.

          • shiwan

            If the alternative is to automatically lose every game, yes. That is the alternative….

            It’s not a boos for CSM in any real way. Yes, there are neat gimmics but let’s be honest, the actual benefit in points you get from this whole thing is equal to what you get when you buy everything separately in a cad without VotLW.

            Why would you want to hinder your KDK by mixing this thing with it?

            The designer is not too smart, that’s how you get useless units added to useless units in a formation that does nothing….like for example mutilators with warpsmiths.

          • Skathrex

            Again, you seem to play diffrent opponents than I am. I don’t auto loose with CSM, because I am playing opponents on the lvl of CSM. And thus the boost increased the field of opponents where I don’t have an uphill battle. That, for me, is a win.

            I said it before, I don’t think I will be building CSM with a normal CAD anymore, except I when I want to spam something, thats not in the List of Units.

            Thats the same thing you could every DE, or Harlequin player. Why do they not play Eldar.
            Why do SM players play something diffrent than Iron Hands or White Scars?
            Naturally I could only play KDK, but then, why do I not play Daemon Decurion, or Cabal/Gorepack.
            Maybe find new synergys, maybe just to try something out, or maybe just use the Gorepack as a crutch to be able to play Zerkers.

            Well, I won’t blame the designer, because these Formations are clearly made with a diffrent intention in mind.
            They try to fit Units together because of Fluff.
            Sure you could do a Formation with spawn and let the Mutilators move 12″, but that doesn’t quite fit the Fluff.

          • shiwan

            Does it fit the fluff that imperium and the garden gnomes curb stomp CSM all day every day when they want to chill before actual games?

          • Stealthbadger

            It does doesn’t it?

          • shiwan

            Not really.

          • Skathrex

            What is this? Should I answer this?
            In a fluff game they don’t tada!

          • shiwan

            Yes they do. Play against marines or eldar. You can not make unfluffy lists from those.

          • Stealthbadger

            Wait are you saying you can’t make fluffy lists as SM?

            1 chaplain, 1 full assault squad, 3 full tac squads in rhino, each with missile launcher and flamer (hell yeah old school 2nd edition), 1 dreadnought Coz awesome. 1 unit Dev lascannons with sergeant thingy.

            Then I think I’d chuck in the armoured company thing with a vindi, las cannon pred, and maybe a couple of whirlwinds. With any points left I’d squeeze in stern guard and vanguard vets or the scout formation.

          • shiwan

            Nope. I’m saying that CSM can not defeat a fluffy marine list that is not designed to lose against anyone.

          • Stealthbadger

            I think they’d do fine against the above list which is just off the shelf from a gladius and avoiding grav.

          • shiwan

            One can dream. The next few tournaments show what’s what.

          • Stealthbadger

            If you want to enjoy this hobby I probably wouldn’t look to the tournament scene.

          • shiwan

            I want to be able to play against any army and to have fun without being a masochist or denying the fun from my opponent, simultaneously.

            Is that too much to ask?

          • Stealthbadger

            At a tournament. Yes. By your own points made previously. At length. Ad nauseam. You have no right nor ability to dictate the others play style in a tournament game.

            However, as part of a friendly game you can absolutely have a chat about balance. It happens everyday in gaming clubs and stores around the world. You don’t have to oscillate from one extreme view of I can’t control tournaments to I can’t have any form of talking to my opponent without ruining their fun. You are not the only one who wants the game to be fun. Once you realise that I’m sure you’ll one day meet an opponent who will want the same thing and as such have brought their own fluffy, fun to play with and against list.

            I play with several groups in rotation, I’ve never even had to have the power level discussion because my opponent has already reached the conclusion they want to have a reasonable game and that started with them being reasonable in their own list.

          • shiwan

            I do not want to dictate what is ok and what is not, at all. They can use what ever they want and I’ll use what ever I want. If it’s balanced, great. Otherwise, unless dice or skill is clearly in question, it’s the fault of the designer.

          • Stealthbadger

            Well in that case in the words of the great philosophers Public Enemy. I can’t do nuttin for ya, man!

          • shiwan

            I know. It’s the designers job anyway. They have failed.

          • georgelabour

            Considering most tournaments don’t actually play by the rules and instead use a series of house rules designed to promote a specific clique’s list preference they’re hardly indicative of the game itself.

            Though if you’re going to insist they are it’s worth noting that not many Eldar, Tau, or primarily Codex: Space Marine armies have been winning the ‘major’ ones.

          • shiwan

            True, but they tend to be more consistent than pick up games.

          • georgelabour

            Altering your baseline compromises any eventual data that may result. Thus any statistics gleaned from such sources are suspect at best. Mostly because the results become skewed towards a result different from what might otherwise occur.

            So consistent or not they can not be held as in any way indicative of the state of the game.

            Not even when they disprove your own proclamations of Eldar, Tau supremacy.

          • shiwan

            It’s not perfect but to be fair, most tournaments tend to design scenarios and such so that they do not especially favor any particular list type. Pretty much the opposite of vanillahammer.

          • georgelabour

            Except that they do indeed alter the rules to favor the lists that their participants wish to play.

            For example the changes to stomp and D weapons rules used in various formats heavily alter the way imperial knights perform. course leads to tougher deathstars made up of multiple smaller units being favored. Which leads to more marine units being employed.

            So it is again just a set of house rules that alter the game, and thus any results one may wish to use when determining the state of them game.

            And that’s just one reason.

          • shiwan

            All true. Still, 100 participants playing 5 games with the same rules gives better results about various qualities than 2 participants altering rules game by game basis.

          • I can’t like your first paragraph enough.

          • Karru

            There is a TON of things they could have done with the entire detachment. For example, make it so you could have taken one of the cults within Black Legion and have the Marks of Chaos for free. If no Mark is taken, give something like extra Special Weapons to unit or special rules like infiltrate or outflank to Undivided forces since they focus more on tactics than god worship like their more “focused” brethren. They could’ve made it so that you can give your formations free marks and depending on that give them buffs, like FNP +6 for Nurgle, Fearless for Slaanesh, Furious Charge for Khorne and 5+ Invulnerable save for Tzeentch. Undivided would get free transports or gain access to heavier equipment like Predators in the Warband instead of the Havocs. This would’ve made CSM way more flexible, interesting and fluffy.

          • Skathrex

            Yes they could, they could have done more with Eldar too, Skys the limit.
            And even though there are some pretty good suggestions, some don’t work fluffwise for a Undivided army (which this should present).
            In addition while your rules look fun, I doubt you could implement them with a short rulestext, these read more like options for a Unit than Detachment-boni.

            I thought about a few Formations and their Benefits that they could have done, or could do for Chaos. And to represent them you would need far more than 11 Formations. More like 30 Formations.
            And maybe they will come. It looks like the first book of a series, and seeing some of these things makes me hopeful.

          • Karru

            Sooooooo… Make AoD book for Chaos like they did with SM?

          • Skathrex

            fingers crossed for the next Black Crusade book…on the other hand. I would rather they just give us a new Dex altogether.

          • Karru

            Isn’t the next book BA? Good for them, they really deserve it since they are the CSM of Space Marines.

          • Skathrex

            Yeah, I think we have to wait quite a bit, BA, than more likly Fenris again. (But maybe with TS stuff) and than maybe CSM again

          • Karru

            I’m betting more on the Thousand Sons and Ahriman after BA. I really don’t see GW making more stuff for Wolves, instead they might go with some Dark Angels. But I literally couldn’t care less about them since whatever the future holds for Imperial, it won’t be Guard or Sisters.

          • Skathrex

            Yep, I closed my sisters chapter some time ago.
            That why I am not so pesimistic with Chaos. Yeah it might not be the best of the best atm, but at least we are getting something.^^

          • Aaron

            guard are not terrible though, they need a new plastic kit or even alternate head sprue plus a different regiment to cadians and catachans (who should also get their own decurion)

          • Karru

            I was mostly referring to them getting a “decurion” they can use in normal games and can benefit from its effect. As it stands now, your options are either going with all tanks and ignoring the entire point of taking the “decurion” or go with infantry with no AT or special weapons in a standard game.

          • Aaron

            the formation needs at least 3k to get off the ground, thats basically apoc

          • If daemon primarchs are truly coming, I think we’ll see God specific stuff come with them, maybe the way we got alternate Gladius detachments for white scars and Raven guard

          • Skathrex

            I would like that, but atm I am a bit cautios if Daemon Primarchs are comming, it looks a bit shady.

          • Agreed, I never believe anything I don’t have photos of, lol.

          • I like all those ideas, but we got what we got. Still, this is clearly designed as a black legion warband, where dedication to the gods is not essential. Maybe we’ll get lucky and they’ll do more God specific stuff.

          • Karru

            As far as I’m aware, you cannot use Black Legion book with the detachment, you have to use the regular CSM book. This is what makes it so laughable. “Yeah, we are the Black Legion. We are not going to use our rules/book since that would be just silly.”

          • Aaron

            I player ultramarines, but I do use tiggy and calgar…

          • Muninwing

            i want a Eldar-level codex.

            but that’s because i want GW to address their failed points algorithm. meaning that Eldar would stay as powerful, just in far fewer numbers. and everyone would benefit.

          • Stealthbadger

            But if GW made everyone eldar level wouldn’t that make the game even worse?

            Would it be better to give everyone ridiculous power levels or tone everyone down?

            I’d say the latter given nobody likes putting stuff on the table only to have to pick it up without it ever using it because it got D spammed.

          • Charon

            If everybody is OP, nobody is. If every unit is useful, you can play a variety of builds without puuting yourself at a disadvantage.

            Nobody likes putting stuff on he table only to have to pick it up without it ever using it because it got D spammed?
            Well… that already happens. That is WHY pre necron codices are complaining.
            The thing that would change is: you gotta D back instead of sucking it up and go home.

          • Stealthbadger

            Wouldn’t that just exacerbate the pick up and go home process if everyone can spam D?

            Personally I don’t see D spam, in fact until deathwatch we didn’t even have an eldar player. We have one tau player but he likes to play around with various builds and keeps it well balanced. I have necrons but don’t tend to use them unless asked or if I check first, even then I’ll probably use the CAD. Maybe I’m just lucky to play with nice people and we’re all willing to accommodate to enjoy the hobby. If the rest of you out there really are in hyper competitive death star environments all I can say is I’m sorry that’s the case.

            I’m not sure it’s fair to assume that every other player outside my group exclusively plays eldar and marines with tau.

          • Aaron

            KDK got very sucky limited ‘D’ a crappy axe at I1 on a 6 and a bloodthirster also striking at I1…

          • Charon

            Not too bad if you consider the use in the army. You basically want to play maulerfiends with tentacles and use the BT to mop up anything the Fiends locked down. The I1 is not too bad if there is mostly just 1 attack an 4 or 5+ striking first.

          • Andrew Thomas

            What I wouldn’t give for some Small-points-hammer.

          • Aaron

            I want a necron level codex, where its competitive

      • el_tigre

        It’s in the third picture that Bols is saving for another article but it is there.

    • Stealthbadger

      Charging from deepstrike, 50% chance of free cultists, free hatred.

      Doesn’t look to shabby. Think 5 warp talon squads with three coming in same turn all charging with hatred. Going to make the imperial guard sad ๐Ÿ™

      • Unimpressed

        the cadian supplement already makes the imperial guard sad, no need for traitors hate ๐Ÿ™

        • Stealthbadger

          I’ve sort of made it work sometimes. Problem is 5 Russes is a bit too heavy and by turn two they’re usually dead to melee. Vehicles are just way too weak there with no over watch, hit on threes, rear armour. ๐Ÿ™

          The ogryn/bullgryn rampart thing works ok but it’s still a lot of points. Plus the biggest thing with the cadian formation is no fortifications so by by ADL ๐Ÿ™ whatever will I cower for the emperor behind now?

          I just wish we had some cheaper options. The good vets and artillery ones pretty much eat up the entire list at 1850. Most armies can usually get away with 500-600 per formation leaving some flexibility.

          • Karru

            Exactly. That is my problem with the Cadian Battlegroup. It benefits infantry but the Infantry formation costs way too much. It really makes me want to ask GW what they think is a “normal” sized game in 40k.

          • Stealthbadger

            It’s weird though as I don’t think any of the other formation detachments are quite so cumbersome. (Though flyers are almost always handled poorly I.e. You need three of them).

            I seriously don’t think they use points in their games that much. I wouldn’t be surprised if they played internally by saying we each get one core two choice and one secondary. Points not relevant. The sigmar method would be explained a bit by this.

            Never tried the above so no idea how balanced it would actually be but at least guard could drown them in bodies!

          • Karru

            That could work, but it might have some problems and also there is the issue with armies that have yet to get their own “Decurions”.

          • Aaron

            that formation smashed tau in a 3k game, in normal 2k or 1850 you barely fit a core in

          • Aaron

            the core should be an imperial shield platoon not a bloody 165 man company, I barely have enough models and moving them gives me the sh!ts!

          • Stealthbadger

            You sound like a man who needs some imperial primer.

      • Charon

        Weaker version from the siege of Vraks where you get more, cheaper and better armed traitor guard back on a 2+ with the outflank rule.

        • Stealthbadger

          So… Go after the 150 point plus exposed Russ?

          What you say is possible but your assuming the absolute worst case in every area. If you do what most people would do, give yourself 5-6 inch margin of error, don’t mishap/scatter then you can enjoy Killy fun time.

          As for assuming a loss of models in over watch I assure you you’ll be more amazed at how often s3 no AP las guns fail to do anything despite the mathhammer. Trust me, I gave up blob guard along time ago. ๐Ÿ™‚

          As for siege of vraks, that sounds pretty good to me. Free units effectively. Given how much complaints there are over 35 point rhinos with one Storm bolter I don’t see why it’s rubbish when chaos get their cultists back and eith outflank they should be back in the fight pretty quickly.

          • Karru

            CSM should really get some homing beacons or at least make Icons help with DS. The Warp Talons have the lovely blind rule, but you never really want to risk it since it’s only 6″ bubble.

          • Stealthbadger

            Don’t get me wrong, it’s not perfect, but all I can say is my orksies would love a rule like this for their stormboyz!

            Plus you are chaos you know, things have to be a little chaotic! ๐Ÿ™‚

            Chaos, well organised and planned, none of the time.

          • Karru

            Then again, we read about lightning fast raids that leave entire cities devastated before a distress message can be send out and only clues that can be found are Chaos Stars and mutilated bodies of the PDF.

          • Stealthbadger

            Well maybe if they spent more time practising their jump technique and less time drawing pretty pictures using a largely loyalist based palette…

            You e got a good point of course, I’m simply trying to see this in a slightly more optimistic light than most, at least your responses are sensible. I understand the disappointment but the abject despair on here is hilarious.

          • Karru

            Indeed, I have noticed the two opposites here. Those that praise this book like it is the coming of Christ and see no flaws in it while the other ends just says it’s utter unplayable garbage. I like to take the middle road and actually analyse the book and the formations.

          • Stealthbadger

            To me it seems to be more some can see some of the positive things about it. It’s not suddenly tops tier but it has some nice things.

            The other group hate it because it’s not top tier in terms of tournament level.

            I always come back to the query of when did GW ever set out to make this a high level tournament game? To use my analogy from another thread GW make comfy slippers. It’s not their fault people want to use them as running shoes.

          • Karru

            The problem I see with it is that even if GW doesn’t want to make it tournament game, they are doing very inconsistent job with it. One book is insanely powerful in terms of options and builds while the other is completely useless. To use your analogy, it’s like they make comfy slippers for men, very low quality and uncomfortable slippers for women and just slippers that are just “meh” for children.

          • Stealthbadger

            But if they want to just make comfy slippers for men they are nailing it.

            I think they only see the power issues via feedback in places like this. I heard the codices are developed in a vacuum, this would explain why some are just too much and some are a bit meh. Can you imagine if a tournie player here and a fluff player had to each design a codex? Honestly I think the individual codex authors are just blind or blinkered to some of the issues. They really should get all the writers in a room together to amend them all and down grade them to suitable levels in one go.

            Here’s hoping for and eight edition warscrolls model….

          • Karru

            And that is why I’m glad that GW might actually start to listen to their fans. When they hear what fans want with Chaos, they might finally get on the right track with them. Even an AoD style book for Chaos would help a ton. Legion specific detachments along side Renege/Undivided and lots of new formations would make Chaos something that people would actually enjoy.

          • Stealthbadger

            Oh for the day the chaos fans are finally happy eh? ๐Ÿ™‚

            Let’s both hope, but then the comments section here would be deader than the ones for all the other games apprently everyone plays now instead of 40k. And then how would I entertain myself over lunch breaks?

          • Skathrex

            You! I like you! Very well put everything!

            Just one little damper, for GW to know what CSM players want, we have to figure out what we wnat ourselfs first.

          • Stealthbadger

            Oh well you are too kind and let me say… I like me too.

            As for your second point that will never happen. This forum alone is proof of that. I swear the guy who writes these is sat in the corner of the office rocking back and forth. Or alternatively sat with the most epic troll face ever and a picture of Matt Ward on his desk framed in tinsel.

          • Skathrex

            Yeah, I think you are right!

            But I hope at some point GW just commits to one side.
            I am fine with both, I just don’t want to hang in the balance.

          • Jeff

            Spoken like an Eldar player…”Paper’s fine…nerf rock” -scissors

          • Stealthbadger

            Sorry to disappoint, no eldar for me. Orks IG, SM, Admech and Crons though. Favourite is orks.

            The comment was light hearted but you took it like a true chaos player.

            Way too serious and absolutely no sense of humour ๐Ÿ™‚

          • Zack Seiders

            I am seeing middle road as well. While a free votlw is nice (helps SOME of the leadership issues csm have) it still has not solve the other problem with the csm…. that would be points in units.

          • Karru

            Which is why I would’ve liked to see things like free Marks for some units, like Raptors/Warp Talons for example or even basic CSM.

          • Skathrex

            THAT is the biggest thing on my Wishlist right now. If we had any form of DS Mitigation these Formations would all be a lot better. (All that can DS ofcourse)

          • Karru

            I really don’t get it why it’s not there. Everyone else has something that helps them DS but CSM doesn’t for some reason.

          • Charon

            1) If the russ is exposed your oppoent is bad. Plain and simple. Learn to castle up and bubblewrap properly.

            2) This is not the worst case in any area. You want to be withing 7″ which is the average of your charge roll. You have a 33 % chance to not scatter at all.
            Don’t scatter already sums it up. you math works differently than in the rest of the world. I call it cheating as there is no way to “don’t scatter”.

            Again. Your math is different because you say so. You tell me I assume the worst possible situation when I assume AVERAGES, while you go on to talk only in extremes.

            I can see why you dont know that the complaing about free vehicles is all about. From your text it can see you have a pretty poor grasp on the game (no offense, just a fact) as it all comes down to luck for you.
            Lets make it easy: What is the difference between a 100% free razorback and a unit of cultists that could be free in 50% of times?
            Advanced: What does a free (transport)vehicle give to a unit compared to them walking over the field? How many weapons are there in your army that can wound T4 and how many weapons are there that can penetrate AV11 or 12?

          • Stealthbadger

            Urgh, never mind then.

          • georgelabour

            You should have known Charon is one of those ‘theory hammer’ players whose ‘math’ always seems to hold a 100% success rate for whatever worst case scenario he’s arguing for.

            He apparently also only ever plays against opponents so skilled and rules savvy they’d never lose to Joshua at a game of Tic-Tac-Toe, or TNGW.

          • Stealthbadger

            Yep, been there before and ended up being mean to him which I am sorry for. Hence I ducked out this time.

      • nurglitch

        Free Leadership bonus.

      • Malisteen

        The cultists need to cluster to benefit from the apostle, can’t actually hurt things, and die very easily, giving up victory points over and over. It’s really not as functional as it sounds. Take those same models, give them some special weapons, and run them as the renegades & heretics set up that does the same thing, only with units that come back on a 2+, and can actually do something.

        Warp talons / raptors charging from deep strike is nice, but scatter really, really hurts that, and disorganized charge take the already blunted teeth out of it. Still, that formation has some use at least.

        • Stealthbadger

          You basically just described my imperial guard troops choice. Except my guys don’t come back to bog down the enemy.

          I get the warp talon thing. They could have mitigated it by allowing them to run then charge I suppose. But to be honest I’m not with you as much purely on the mathhammer. Yes this may say you’ll scatter but take the risk, you know how good it’ll feel when three to five units all land perfect-ish. To me it’s moments like that that are winning, who cares about victory points ๐Ÿ™‚

          • Jeff

            They USED to…ahh poor Chenkov….

        • babelfisk

          I’ve ran the ‘nid version of this, with small bugs coming back, and a lot of the utility comes from how you play them.

          You use them as objective grabbers and movement blockers, or to tie up units.

          Not amazing, but able to net you an extra point or two every game, which can be the difference between a win and a loss.

      • Julien Huguenin

        Maann you can take Crimson Laughter’s posseded for the “Posseded get all three buffs” formation.

        That’s mean fast moving (beast), Shrouded, 3++ monsters with 5 rending attaks on the charge dudes.

        • Malisteen

          No you can’t. The formation bonus is to the regular possessed table rolled at the start of the assault phase. It does nothing for the crimson slaughter table, which is rolled at the start of the turn.

          • Julien Huguenin

            Ah, good point, you are right.That will teach me to entertain high hopes for the CSM.

          • Malisteen

            Believe me, I take no pleasure in it. I want possessed to be a playable unit as much as anyone.

    • eehaze

      The Warband + Fist of The Gods can make a nasty combination. I’d fill 3 Land Raiders with power-armored infantry plus an HQ to give them Fearless.

      It’s over-costed thanks to the CSM codex, but it’s the most interesting update the army has seen in years.

      • Malisteen

        Sadly, chaos land raiders are worse versions of already the worst variant of space marine land raider, while even the very best land raider variants in the game are basically unplayable due to the ubiquity of weapons that just ignore armor value outright (heywire, D, gauss, and of course grav). CSM armor is just a non-starter right now, and none of these formations help that. But hey, at least there’s chaos knight titans, now. That’s something at least.

    • Aaron

      its meh, but on the other hand there is one very narrow way of playing competitive csm: summoning a swarm of daemons and massing WC

  • Alexander Slizewski

    HAHAHA. HAHAHA. HA. Filthy scrubs at GW have failed yet again in releasing decent Chaos content! (proceeds to stuff Mountain Dew and Doritos down his throat, spilling the majority neck beard; simultaneously ordering 6 helldrakes with his mother’s debit card)

    Pushing satirical laughter and stereotypical neck beard jokes to the side ,in all seriousness this is really weak. Guess I’ll just stick to my Khorne Bloodbound army.

    • georgelabour

      So since you’ve already read the entire thing and have gained an empyric knowledge of the rules therein.

      Can you tell us the special rules for the formation on page 121?

      • Honestly, I’d like to know. As an Iron Warriors fan, I love the idea of a War(p)smith following a line of Forgefiends and/or Defilers and repairing them as they march across the field and lay waste to the enemy’s lines.

        Or even better, the one that lets you take multiple Warpsmiths and up to 5 tanks. Vindicator line? Yes please!

        • Skathrex

          You will be happy, 3 Formations with Warpsmiths.
          Warpsmiths with Hellbrute, Mauler/Forgefiend, Defiler giving one a 4+ Invul and the others Rage when the 4+ one dies.
          1-5 Warpsmith with 3-5 Units of Mutilators/Oblits letting one Unit double shoot/fight each phase for each Warpsmith
          1 Warpsmith:3-5 out of LR, Vindicator and Predator (Vindis and Predators can be taken as Units of 3 with SM special rules).

          So I would be happy as a Iron Warrior. Will buy my first Warpsmith soon

          • Karru

            My only problem is that they make you literally spam the Warpsmith. He costs 110pts compared to the Techmarine that costs 65pts. He isn’t exactly a game changer and his harness doesn’t really get that much use. It is those buffs he gives that makes him good, but he still costs too much.

          • Skathrex

            I never played him due to beeing light on Tech, but I think you are right, I don’t want to many of them, but I can see myself running them with a 5 man CSM min squad in a Rhino (from the core formation) as a second Melter

          • Karru

            My friend plays Iron Warriors and always brings a Warpsmith, as is Warlord no less, with a body guard of 10 CSM. He is annoying thanks to his Curse, but you really cannot spam him like that much, like GW wants people to do.

          • Skathrex

            My thought for the Oblit formation was 2*1 and one big Unit of 3, maybe with a Sorc, but maybe thats just too much.
            I wouldn’t play more than the bare minimum. but 1 Warpsmith wit 3*3 Oblits basically gains the somewhat the worth of 3 Oblits with that rule. (Somewhat lower, but I would rate the Rule somewhere between 100 and 200 Points)

          • Karru

            I think I’d go with three units of 2 and place the Warpsmith into a unit of Havocs or normal Marines that belong to the Warband and keep them close to the Obliterators.

          • Skathrex

            Do they have too? Maybe I overread it, but I don’t think there is a range or los condition

          • Karru

            The Warpsmith has to be within 8″.

          • Skathrex

            A shoot, then it will definatly just be the one^^

          • Zack Seiders

            When I said I wanted a formation involving the machines getting more benefits…. This is actually pretty good for list involving maulerfiends and a defiler/ forgefiend (even if it translates to making the shooting engine a bigger target… rage makes the maulers flat out MEAN if they get into an imperial knight. “as well as giving them lasher tendrils) Still would not justify the defiler over forgefiend due to the sorcerers cute little ap 3 shooting power that will be used on forgefiend.

          • Skathrex

            I agree, nothing can justify poor little Defy

          • Zack Seiders

            defilers are more expensive than a forgefiend and gets next to no good synergy even with support. Compared to the forge fiend who if buffed with both a sorcerer with the ap 3 power AND a herald of tzeentch with divinity…… will mulch anything not terminator armor or a good invuln save.

      • shiwan

        Have you read the CSM codex?

        • georgelabour

          Have you read the deathwatch codex yet there mister Heavy Flamer?

          • shiwan

            Actually yes. It has nothing to do with this but I have.

          • georgelabour

            Neither does asking me if I’ve read certain codices when all I’ve done is ask for relevant rules information. Rules that aren’t in the book you’re now asking me about.

            Especially when such questions come from someone who declares things as ‘OP’ without even knowing how they work…

          • shiwan

            Actually it does since at that point it seemed like it was not obvious to you that this supplement is not going to be good and that while it might be partly a fault in the supplement the main reason is still that the parent codex is just so bad that this just can not make a difference regardless of it’s quality.

          • georgelabour

            I asked the man who’d read the book what the rules for a particular formation were.

            My question was answered. There’s even a small discussion going on around its mereits and drawbacks.

            However you asked me if I’d read a different book which obviously would not have the information I requested. This is an obvious attempt to draw me into an argument over the quality of the product.

            Considering your last attempt at this involved little more than name calling along with an admission that you don’t actually read the rule books before making proclamations I still see no point in debating a topic I never actually brought up.

          • shiwan

            It did not have the information you requested. It had the information you needed to understand that you did not need the information you requested to accuratelu assess the worth of this book.

            Your ad hominems do not do any favors for you.

          • georgelabour
          • shiwan

            ad hominem
            ad หˆhษ’mษชnษ›m/
            adverb & adjective
            1.
            (of an argument or reaction) directed against a person rather than the position they are maintaining.
            “an ad hominem response”

            At least try to find the correct description when you are trying to use that particular fallacy as an argument.

      • Alexander Slizewski

        No, I don’t have the rules; judging from your comment and stance, I apologize if my comment differs from your opinion and offends you.

        Based on what we’ve read from this leak, it’s my belief that this section of the rules is compatibly weak to the majority of the meta. After all, I think we can all agree that Hatred and Veterans of the Long War is subpar at best when compared to the rules that Eldar, SM, Tau, Mechanicus, and pretty much the majority of everyone else get.

        Though it’s a possibility that the other formations do stand out as being powerful, based on this skirt of info I’m not taking my chances with it. GW has already disappointed me more then once with CSMs; I’d rather not waste my time or money again.

        • Matt Craufurd

          Theres some good ones. The Raptor/Warp Talons formation lets them charge from deep strike. The possessed one gives all the possessed all three rules if theyre near the Prince. The Obliterator one lets them shoot twice. The Berserker one lets them Attack in the movement phase if theyre locked in combat, in addition to attacking in the combat phase.

          • shiwan

            The deep strike is not accurate = you still do not take that formation if you can get something else.

            The possessed are slow and the prince is flying. What are the odds that the prince is close enough (unless you can use CS rules for the possessed)?

            Oblits do not have 2 las cannons per model so it’s really a lasc + melta combo which will do you no good.

            The zerkers will never reach combat thanks to their lack of delivery method.

            Other ideas?

          • Brian Griffith

            I could see that Possessed formation getting a little more interesting if you tried it on Crimson Slaughter. Still not quite killy as I’d like, but all three results from the Crimson Slaughter Possessed table at once might be… kinda nice.

          • Charon

            Thats the point. The possessed would be really coll if you would make them crimson slaughter. 12″ move, shrouded, 3++
            But sadly this is impossible as the DP can’t be part of a CS detachment (VotlW)

          • Brian Griffith

            Ah, I’d forgotten about that. That makes the note that Daemon Princes can’t take the Daemonheart even sillier.

          • Charon

            Simple copy and paste job.

          • the possessed buff only triggers during the fight subphase, so they wouldn’t get to use beast (but maybe could use shrouded on the opposing player’s turn?) either way it definitely isn’t clear if it’s possible or how the rules work

          • shiwan

            On par with the wolfen? I don’t think so.

          • Zack Seiders

            the digganobz actually have weapons of ap2 and higher strength 2 wounds each, fleet as well as dealing attacks even after they die. All the mutations combined on the possessed makes them ap3, shred and +1 attack and initiative “on top of their strength 5. The digganobz are still better in every way.

          • shiwan

            That’s what I thought.

          • Zack Seiders

            minor note that the possessed in said formation have to be close to said prince to get the benefits (unless the prince can ACTUALLY be apart of said squad “like a swarmlord and tyrant guard” this makes him A forced to walk rather than fly “jumped infantry on a monsterous creature helps with that” and B a big giant target.

          • shiwan

            Yep. It’s bad.

          • Muninwing

            i donno… deepstriking warptalons that charge is super-lame, but really the only way of making them useable.

            i’d love to see them not die fast, and that’s one way. it’s not wholly reliable, the deepstrike, but they’re a shock unit that you throw in early to mess with the opponent — that’s a decent risk.

          • Charon

            Too much risk for no reward.
            DS in assault range -> mishap or scatter outside of range
            That is already a significant risk that skyhammer does not have to bear… quite the opposite, skyhammer gets to move an additional 6″
            The disordered charge is the topping on the crapcake.
            You dont get the assault bonus, no FC, no MoK.
            You are sitting there with 2 (!) attacks after you just assaulted. Thats not even enough for 10 IG soliders.

          • shiwan

            So, from the hobby point of view it’s not all bad but on the table it’s utter crap?

          • Muninwing

            probably not… but i’d love it if it did.

          • shiwan

            Most of us would.

          • wibbling

            Yup, that’s astonishing. It’s really, really good.

        • Mr.Gold

          The suppliment is called “Traitor’s HATE”…

          • euansmith

            Traitors gonna hate.

          • petrow84

            *trate

        • wibbling

          Stop whinging.

          • Mira Bella

            Stop reading.

      • Matt Craufurd

        The Mauler/Forgefiend get to use Daemonforge a second time, and also one model because the pack “Alpha”, which then gets a 4++. If it dies the rest of the models get Rage for the rest of the game.

        • It actually says “second and or subsequent” which seems to indicate you can use it again and again

    • Victor Hartmann

      Hitting the panic button early . . . why? To be the first in your gaming group?

      Seriously, we get one leak which isn’t even bad considering half the armies out there are Imperial anyway and you want to panic already? If the rest of it turns out terrible, fine, panic away. Until we actually see how it fits together, I don’t see the need to rush to “fail” based on a couple of decent but not great special rules.

      • Charon

        All formations already leaked. BolS is just spliting them up as usual.
        But the theme is clear… hatred and mutations… again. This is the 1000th source of hatred the book gets (VotlW, Warlord traits, mutations, formations, wargear,..) and it still is a bad USR. I would trade it for preferred enemy any time.
        While you have a few formations that sound interesting but are extremely expensive in between most follows this path of beeing rather on the weak side.
        The warptalon/raptor one for example sounds good on paper as it allows you to assault after deepstriking.
        But this assault counts as disordered, so no attack bonus and no USR that triggers when assaulting. Which makes assaulting raptors the same stats and attacks as assaulting devastors from a skyhammer force… just with the difference that these devastors still have chapter tactics to boost them and can safely deepstrike next to the enemy with their drop pods, walk up to them and then assault.

        • Karru

          Before I add my answer, announcement to those that haven’t already!

          – Google Traitor’s Hate 40k Formations –

          There is a reddit thread with all the formation pics!

          • Skathrex

            Is there any Info on new relics maybe?

          • Karru

            There are no new relics as far as I know.

        • Skathrex

          I see a diffrent problem with the Raptors. Just don’t make them Khorne. They should be fine with Nurgel or Slaanesh marks (or bare bone). Most of the Time an equiped champion does the jo (+CC).
          The Problem would be the Deep Striking close to enemys.

          But i will try before casting a final verdict. I think 3 cheap units of Raptors with Melta or Flamer could really do wonders.

          Can they use their jumppack after Deep strike?

          Prefered Enemy is better for shooting (obviously) but in CC I mostly prefer Hatred. And taking the Rnd out of Mutations is a good thing in my book.
          I am pretty happy with these formations.

          • Karru

            As far as I know, they can use their Jump Packs in the assault phase. It really is a pity that this formations gains such a fun and interesting rules, but have to suffer Disordered Charge while SM can charge freely without suffering any penalties with the Skyhammer.

          • Skathrex

            I think Skyhammer is generally seen as a mistake. But yeah, the Disordered charge hurts a lot, especially the Khorne Raptors, who want to be in CC so badly

          • Tbh I don’t see anything in this book that would make me switch from daemonkin to this detachment.

          • Skathrex

            Permanantly? I don’t think so, but I like trying stuff out.
            Maybe something will stick.
            See how the Raptor Formation works.
            My main problem with KDK atm is, that its not rewarding to ally, because of BftBG, but I would like to play or test Raptors, and I want to see if the Zerkers gain anything.
            But I won’t completly abandon KDK, my Bloodthirster looks way to good for that.^^

          • I should be clear, I just mean for Khorne marines, I think there’s a ton of great stuff here, but you need psykers to augment your forces primarily. Example: the raptor formation is much, much better if you have a couple sorcerers on bikes rushing forward to put down cursed earth so your warp talons don’t scatter and get +1 invul

          • Charon

            Even with nurgle or slaanesh marks they do not hit harder in assault than a tactical marine.

            Preferred enemy is melee AND shooting. on you hit AND wound rolls. Also you have like 10 sources of hatred for your angry marines already.

          • Skathrex

            True, combined with VotlW its redundant, but I think its meant as some form of fix for it. (VotlW should mean Hatred Imperium).

            PE is awesome for shooting, but rerolling to Hit in CC has a bigger impact than just rerolling 1s. But as an army wide rule for an army that isn’t focused on either PE will be better.

          • Charon

            Not really.
            There are a lot more units that shoot AND melee (or just shoot) than units that do melee only.
            To make hatred better it would need a big number of attacks which basically no bigger group of models provide. If you just look at melee, yes hatred is slightly better. If you look at both sides, PE is by far the better choice.
            As an army, most of the CC units CSM field do not get hatred or VotlW anyways (Spawn, Fiends)

          • Skathrex

            thats basically what I said. PE is better over all, unless your CC focused.
            Even if you hit on 3s Hatred is better than PE in CC, everything worse and Hatred gets increasingly better.

          • The formation is begging for cursed earth (take multiple ob sec biker squads and attach cyclopean cabal guys on bikes to ensure cursed earth is where you need it) which if you have enough guys to roll for reliably easily justifies taking mark of tz for the 3++ with no scatter and charge from DS. Maybe don’t take all of the units as warp talons to save points.

          • Skathrex

            Good Idea, you could even make 2++ Sorcs, but that would be expensive. Will try it out though.
            Maybe 2 times Warptalons, 1 Unit of Raptors for the Lord?

          • Yeah, the raptors are cheaper and more flexible, the warp talons wind up pretty pricey too so saving points is crucial.

    • wibbling

      You need to stop whining and start to think. Look at the rules and think. Yes, you’re going to have to learn to play better.

      • Karru

        There is a big difference between gitting gud and garbage. Most of these formations are garbage and force you to take taxing stuff, like the forced Warpsmith in basically everything. The one who needs to stop something is you. Insulting everyone without actually adding anything meaningful to conversation isn’t exactly something that makes you more convincing. How about instead of these usual comments, give a good strategic step-by-step explanation that explains to the people like me who lacks your god-like skill that can win any tournament he wants without using the top-tier armies!

        • Skathrex

          Well, to be honest, this is gonna be a hell of a toxic thread, because even though I don’t like wibblings tone, I side with him, because the Formations aren’t even 12 hours old, and bring a lot of solutions (even things people said was Wishlisting before, like assaulting after Deep strike) and its already called crap.

          But I get you too, you have wibbling, I have shiwan^^

          • Karru

            The reason why people call them crap so fast is thanks to the fact that we have extremely good comparisons to make. Just take a look at the Space Marine formations in the AoD book and you realise that most of these formations are pretty much straight copies from there but a lot worse. They also give almost useless rules like the VotLW and double hatred (Imperium). No one in their right mind can say that these are good. These formations are not good in anyway, they are hanging on that single point that makes them a pass in a test. In other words, if you are critical person that likes to compare these to other very similar formations it is a fail, if you are a more kinder and possibly smoked out of your mind type of person, they pass barely.

          • Skathrex

            You are funny. First you complain about wibbling insulting players than you are being a condesending ***? Very hypocritical of you.
            Smoked out? why should I? I just know when I want an competetive system I look somewhere else.
            Naturally I want balance, but I am a positiv guy and I see these Formations as a boost to CSM.
            No amount of Formations would get us to Eldar lvls, not while our core is weak, but they addressed so much with it, that was critiziced before (Votlw beeing a tax, assault after Deep strike etc.) and you still can’t go: ” Well its not Eldar but its a step in the right direction”.
            Your opinion is: ” If its less than 100% its 0%”.

            And people who a) play on diffrent lvls or b) know that theory can be =/= reality, test these before dismissing them.

            I won’t try to sell you on the book, because I don’t think I can, but pls stop spoiling the fun for us who do like it.

          • Karru

            I have said this time and time and time again. I don’t want competitive rules. I want fun and interesting rules that allow me to mix and match units and create synergies. Just take a look at the Sons of Corax in the AoD book. Like the Kazoo kid, I like to have FUN FUN FUN FUUUUUUUN! I want to create a narrative for my units and battles, I want them to feel like real engagements.

            The Raven Guard army focuses of synergy between Scouts and other units. I can escort units like Tactical Marines or Assault Marines on the table while Sniper Scouts spots targets for my Devastators. Scouts acting as a homing beacon for Vanguard Veterans to strike at the enemy while Assault Marines and Devastators offer support to the Scouts and keep them alive. Now that’s fun and interesting, but wait there is more! I can also field my Marines as White Scar and suddenly my ENTIRE COLLECTION works differently. This repeats with Salamanders, Ultramarines, Imperial Fists and Iron Hands. And the best part? They are all amazingly fun to play and competitive and won’t make your opponent back his things up before I deploy!

            Even Eldar has this. I loooooove Guardians, guess what the Eldar can take as their Core Formations? I love Rangers and I like to take Aspect Warriors, but I despise spamming same units over and over again, except Scouts and Ranges, I love them. I’m not looking for an instant win button, because I like a fun game. I play Orks and I enjoy them, because their units are relatively fairly priced for what they do and I can switch things around and still not be worse than the last list I played. I play Imperial Guard that focuses on Infantry Platoons and Orders because I love the mechanic.

            The reason why I’m “hating” on the CSM book is because it is such a missed opportunity and now we once again have to wait for god knows how long until we get something new and can try again. Chaos was my first army, I want to play them, but every time I open the book I just get depressed after playing so much Space Marines. That’s why I started writing my own book, with blackjack and hookers. I of course forgot the blackjack, but that is not needed anyway. I want to play a CSM army that has the same flexibility as SM, Eldar, Tau and Orks have. I want to be able to field almost any unit in the book and not feel like I’m gimping myself. I want to have fun formations that give me chances to convert cool looking units and characters. CSM formations don’t offer that since my points are sunk into tax units instead of upgrades for my units. I want to make unique units that have cool stories attached to them and then they are reflected on the game. That is the reason why I “hate” on CSM. It’s like you have an option between different restaurants that focus on different cultures and you really want Chinese food and only thing they offer is fried rice, while the Indian place offers everything between heaven and earth.

          • Skathrex

            I can get behind anything you said there. I really do, and I get your frustration, but I think its a case of a to big expectation towards Traitor’s Hate.

            Our Codex is crap and old, no way to argue that, and everything is more or less a baindaid untill we get a new Dex.
            I see what they do with SM and hope we will get it at somepoint.
            I think we are just unlucky to get caught in the “codex break” right now.
            When the new CEO is as good as he looks to be. He will see that there is no way of fixing CSM without a new Codex.

            And sadly they couldn’t do AoD for us, because they had no formations to build on.
            This is our Ultramarine Version of a Formation. As with the Daemon one it tries to fix our Problems (boon etc).

            But despite that, we still got better. Not as much as SM sadly, but we got a lot of new way to play

          • Charon

            40k is no quantum mechanics. It is a game of numbers. If your numbers are lower than the enemies, you are at a disadvantage and have to either hope you are flat out the better player to go even or hope the rng is on your side.
            Just look at the dragon formation. The formation rule is disfunctional as the described effects happen AFTER the drake makes his attacks and are cleared BEFORE he can strike again.
            This took about 2 min to figure it out. From a guy that is not a professional game designer. How can stuff like this still happen?
            Same with the 3 Wheelchair Lord formation.
            The Possessed formation would have been actually good in a CS detachment. Sadly the DP in it bans them from beeing CS.

          • Skathrex

            Well yes, its a numbers game, but numbers often can’t realibly show sinergy. And there are factors that you just can’t account for with numbers (Positioning etc.)
            But your general point ist true, and of course there are bad formations.
            The Heldrakes are just a disgrace and a mistake.
            It shows that they don’t proofread their stuff.
            I get the Idea of the Heldrake having an easy time to just pluck things from the ground, its just a bad rule.

            The Timรครครครค-Formation, as I like to call it, is pure Apo, I just sciped over it.

            And the Possesed Formation would be crazy good with CS, but I don’t think its that bad. Its ok for casual and far from broken.
            Finally they hit like a truck, but still won’t get there.

            I don’t argue that all Formations are gold, but neither are the loyal ones, but they aren’t all crap either, and some can be pretty useful. I pretty much won’t build CSM with CAD anymore. (or at most a CS allied Detachment)

          • Charon

            Positioning is a given. You can’t just assume your positioning is superior to your opponent so it should cancel out.
            The possessed already did hit like a truck. they do not need more melee power. They are pretty decent in melee save for deathstars. They do not need another chainsaw attached to their masterswords. They do not get into melee. to unleash their atacks. Thats the main problem.

            Yes, the formations are a different way to play the same stuff. that does not make them good or useful. Just… a different taste of crap.

          • Skathrex

            I don’t disagree with the Possessed. At first my inner Timรค was happy, than I saw that they need to much setup.
            Positioning may not be the only thing, army composition too (among other things) Positioning was just an example.

            Well if the new way is better, than I am happy (which it definatly is). And I never expected it to be Eldar good.
            Before the leaks I was afraid that the book would only consist of the old BL and CS Formations.
            Now I have new Formation wich are mostly (except the Cabal) better than what we got before, and I have a hard time why people are still mad.
            Maybe its just expectation, but as a Chaos player I had a low one, thats why I am positivly suprised.

          • shiwan

            People are mad because while these are better formations than the average CSM formations they are not good enough to change the status quo. The best to worst order, what ever that now is, is still that the CSM is the worst faction with a paper codex.

          • Skathrex

            I never expectet it to change the top status quo, so maybe thats why I am not angry.

            Also I think it has an impact on the “lower” ranks.

          • shiwan

            I don’t think that people are angry. Just bored. To have the worst from the start to finish is just dull.

            Anyway, if it makes no real difference then why bother with it?

          • Skathrex

            Because it does. It makes a “Real” diffrence when I play 40k, thats “real” enough for me to matter.

          • shiwan

            Good for you. I care about the whole game, not about the local meta.

          • Skathrex

            But you don’t. You care about the top scene without acknowladging that this Supplement (While beeing useless for the top scene), brings a lot for the casual szene.
            And thats not my local Meta, thats what is beeing played in most GW-Shops

          • shiwan

            Well, you are simply wrong. Caring about the top scene is caring about the whole game. In a situation in which all factions are viable opponents to the top builds the game is in a healthy situation. In that state the casual gamer can play agaist the competitive gamer no matter what factions are used, no matter the lists and still have a fun balanced experience. I have told you this numerous times.
            This situation we now have is just not acceptable. Your or anyone elses local meta is less than insignificant in comparison to the global meta.

          • Skathrex

            And I agreed with you. If you had any influance on the top scene is often the right thing to do.
            The situation we now have may not be optimal, but its acceptable for me, just not for you, thats a personal opinion, which is fine to have, just be aware its an opinion.
            And if, what you lable as “my local meta”, is the global one, than its not insignificant. This is a point that hard to argue, because I have no numbers, but I would bet there are more casual players, who benefit from this book no matter if it affects the top scene, than there are players in the top szene.

            I wouldn’t argue if you would phrase your arguments in a diffrent, less aggressiv way.
            “Its crap!” and “we can’t use anything” sounds very diffrent from “Well that won’t change the status quo but there are some ne toys for the casual CSM player”.
            I dislike that you are such an Elitist, that for you, there is only Black and White. And you dismiss every argument on that basis of extreme view of the 40k scene.
            And thats the Moment where your arguments loose grip, because while it may be true that if every unit is viable the game may be balanced, but than you will always complain, because even in other games there is no such thing.

            Oh and an example to Metas. Take Leage of Legends as an example. The biggest Esport atm. There is a huge diffrence between what is good in the top szene and what is good in the casual szene.

          • shiwan

            Talk about me all you want, I don’t care, but if you are making claims about me then at least present proof for the claims. All you managed to do now was the announcement that you get offended when people do not cater to your special needs. Also, the straw men you use need work.

            In your opinion it’s acceptable to you. That is fine. Objectively speaking the game is suffering and your feelings about it are secondary to that. Mine are too. Only the quality of the game matters and the quality at the moment with the info we have now is pretty much nonexistent.

          • shiwan

            A solution is something that helps enough such an army that is on some sector lacking. Can you name one problem this book solves for CSM and explain how the problem is solved by that thing?

          • Skathrex

            Delivery for CC Units, DMG output, Boon Table, Moral, and cramped Force Org Slots.

            Well I typed it out longer before, but Disqus ate with a malefunction.

            Force org: Vehicle Squadron and some formations give us more Force Org Slots

            Moral: Votlw: +1 Moral to most of the Army

            Boon Table: No spawndom or Daemon prince (unless wanted) more gifts and a few free ones.

            Dmg output: Double Shooting, Assaulting. May be situational but adds a bit of Punch to some Units

            Delivery: Fleet and +3″ Charge Range for Zerkers. May not be enough bit is a step in the right direction.
            Assault after Deep strike for Raptors and Warp Talons.

            I did write a longer version but Disqus malfunktioned.

          • shiwan

            The delivery of CC units is still missing. Raptor formation dives because of interceptor from tau and the zerkers die just like before. Better but the actual results have not changed in any meaningful way.

            Damage output does not change either. Vindicators are easy to eliminate before they shoot, predators can’t shoot their sponsons accurately if their targets do not want to be hit and oblits have to shoot the same target so it’s just smarter to take more mitolators for the points of those tax units.

            Boon is better but the effect on the table is next to nothing.

            Moral standard of the game on the table is ld10 and/or fearless/atsknf which the vtolw is not bringing things to.

            We can get more tanks, units that are bad enough to be left home in favor of otherwise useless objective grabbers. That is true. Then again there are so many so much better options even for CSM that this does nothing for them.

          • Skathrex

            1. Delivery: Maybe I am wrong, but what meaningful Interceptor is there besides Tau and Coteaz. Tau isn’t a top army, so we can ignore it and Coteaz triggers only if you Deep strike close to him correct?
            Zerkers remains to be seen, depends on the setup imo. Alone on the table maybe, but with hounds leading the charg/ taking the fire it could work).

            2. Didn’t even mean the Vindicator, but I am interested to hear why they die so easily before they can shoot.
            Double shooting with Oblits is not bad imo, you just have to learn to work with it, which imo means deploy them aggressive/forward.
            The termis shoot twice and I have seen some nice tactics already around those.
            Zerkers can hit twice which can be critical.

            3. Boons. I would hold my Judgement on that. A free DP is not too bad and with now more than twice the rolls, maybe we see something affect stuff on the table.

            4. I meantioned this before the delete. It may not be top notch but now we are to 9/10, which is pretty good compared to many. Of course its no Fearless or Atsknf, but beside Necrons we have the highest I think. Standart is more like 8/9

            5. As said before, more options. The supplement cant change the bad Units.

          • shiwan

            1: Tau alone is enough. Allies are a thing. Hounds fall to flahlights easily enough.
            2: Ranged sD and a single model dependency.
            So, your target is the WK. How do you kill it with a single oblit squad and one round of shooting?
            Bolters are not effective against WKs either and the rest of the potential targets care neither for various reasons.
            3: Naked dep is bad. It just is. Give me a free tac squad rather than a naked DP.
            4: 9/10 in what exactly?
            5: True which is why it just lets us automatically lose in new ways.

      • Spacefrisian

        Noooooooo thinking hurts, thats why so many think Dark Eldar cant be competitive (even with video proof, cause in those cases the opponent let them win….cause logic)

        • Thomas Gardiner

          Yeah, one or two isolated examples are totally proof that Dark Eldar are competitive!

          Seriously, you can’t go on about logic and pull that crap. That’d get you a solid F in any methodology course.

    • Painjunky

      CSMs are still terrible.
      Sad but not surprised.

  • Countdiscount

    Need to see what those formation rules are before I can say how I feel about this Detachment.

    • shiwan

      How do you feel about the absolute uselessness of the detachment rules?

      • Matt Craufurd

        Its not terrible…… Everyone gets Obsec at least, including terminators, bikes etc. That could be ok?

        • Brian Griffith

          Except that’s not the detachment. That’s one formation from the detachment, which would require you to forego all the goodies the other formations would grant the units.

          For example, would you really want to forego what the Terminator Annihilation Force gets you, just to get them Objective Secured?

        • shiwan

          Not everyone. Just the core.

          Even if everyone did, so what? It’s not like you’d get to double the number of your units with free transports.

          It’s ok compared to pre necrons (excluding wolves). Other than that it’s so sub par it’s not comparable to anything that is worth mentioning.

    • Karru

      I have seen the rest of them, they are all up but BOLS likes to split them to 8 or so articles. They are not good unfortunately, they do the basic CSM thing. They are very similar to SM ones, but have to suffer penalties ’cause CSM.

  • Benoit Tremblay

    I wish GW would release decent rules for Chaos because the fluff demands it.

    However the chaos players are so whiny that I’m starting to enjoy their misery. keep it coming Gee dub, I’m lovin’ it

    • Alexis Thouin Bourdeau

      From where are you ?

      • Judging people by their origin is state of the art again nowadays, ah?

        • shiwan

          Can you judge him? I would not want to associate myself with bigots either.

  • shiwan

    Well, at least I was right when I said this will not be good enough. Still the benefits will not bring the faction up to par with things like tactical marines in a cad.

    I’ll wait for the next codex before buying anything from them.

    • Victor Hartmann

      Again, what’s with these eagerness to panic? One set of meh special rules and you’re already hitting the panic button? They aren’t even that bad, just not as great as the top ones. At least wait until you’ve read the formation rules before surrendering.

      Maybe that’s why Chaos doesn’t have ATSKNF. They panic at first sign of doubt. Hadn’t made that connection before.

      Shoot, if the rumors are true that Chaos gets the exact same psychic powers as the Loyalists but with evil wording, you should be jumping for joy over this supplement. There are many fantastic powers in there.

      • shiwan

        What is that eagerness to try to shame honest people in to silence when you have no actual arguments that can challenge their assessment of the situation?
        There is no panic. I called it before and this just proved me right. It’s useless no matter what other rules are reasonably expected from the formations.

        Not on par with the top ones = that bad. There is either good balance or the top dogs and the useless factions.

        It’s nice to get the same powers loyalists get, that’s one kind of actual balance. Too bad CSM casters are worthless compared to loyalist ones so that small gesture from GW does no good in the end anyway.

        • Skathrex

          No…just no. No one on Bols can do anything to silence you, and I wouldn’t count you among the honest people in this particular circumstance. Opinionated yes. And yes you proved that your opionion stayed the same, but not that its true. People called the Demon detachments crap too, but it turned out to be pretty good.
          Your arguments are weak too.
          Taking anything in the worst possible way and calling it the best it can do is just no good argument.
          Guess what Jetbikes without Scaterlasers aren’t as good, or marines with Rak and Flamer. Try to do the best thing with the Formation, and if it still flops, than you can call it crap.
          But I guess it still can defeat a good sum more then CSM could do without it.

          • shiwan

            So, all in all you had nothing to counter me so you just decided, yet again, just be the pidgeon on the chess board.

            It’s better than just CSM, there is no doubt about that. The formations are just useless compared to the competition. This is almost entirely a fault in the codex, not in the formations. Maybe if everything was 50% off? I mean, look at the core. Not one useful unit in it. All you get from the detachment is 1 point per model worth of melee only (read never going to matter) rules. To get what marines get from an equal formation you’d need, what, 450 CSM on the table just to get even on points. This is for a 1850p marine lists.

          • Skathrex

            Oh I countered you alright, the problem is just that you don’t see it that way, like always, what you say, and what is your opinion is the truth, and a fact and nothing else matters to you.

            Your argument was that they pared 2 bad Units, but you could just take the good unit instead and now you have a good Unit and a bad Unit with a nice rule on top. yay!

            When the competition is Eldar yes, when the competition is guard or Orks or Nids no.

          • shiwan

            You did not address my argument. Instead you tried fut failed to attack me. That’s not a counter. It’s a fallacy. Look it up, you’ll be amazed how little you said that does not fall under that headline.

            I work with the facts, not emotional opinions. This why your emotion based attacks have yet to prevail.

            So, what are these “good” and “bad units you are talking about?

          • Skathrex

            The obliterators are (in a context of a CSM codex) a “good Unit”.

            And you have yet to bring an argument other than, they suck, because they suck.
            But it will end in the usual argument that tournament is the end all be all for you and nothing else matters, which again will leave me somewhere between annoyed and feeling sorry for you.

            Btw how intersting for you to point out that my argument is a fallacy. It seems to me that your “Posts” fall under the same category.
            Try to be bit aware of what you say, before you point to others.

          • shiwan

            In the context of the whole game, which is all that matters, oblits are not a good unit. Gravturions are a good unit. Oblits are not synergistic with…anything really. There is no combination that makes them useful in the big picture. Turions are not a win button either but at least there are combinations that make them work. Basically 2 versions of the same unit but the other has huge amount of shots (15?) that threaten everything and the other has up to 6.

            The rest of what you wrote went under the argumentative fallacies, again.

          • Skathrex

            So we can finally to the point of arguing?

            And then we can end it right there again, because of a fundamental disagrement we always have.
            a) Diffrent contexts matter for diffrent groups, yours is a very extreme Context, where only the best goes, very Black and White, either something is good or something isn’t.
            Which would be a good point for GW to balance it, so that everything is good (in your opinion), and in that way your context matters some.
            There are others that matter too (I won’t compare importance because I have no data on numbers of players etc).
            In the context of Casual players, Oblits are a good Unit, because they help with flexibility where the player may have made List building mistakes (for example).
            b) Even in your context I would say Oblits may be not “Top Notch”, but they aren’t bad neither.
            The Problem with they have is, that they are priced for the flexibility they bring, but flexibility in 40k doesn’t really pay off, especially if you want to play a fixed “Meta” where you design Units to specialize against a specific thread.

            I would argue that the optimisation makes centurions better. Grav + Pod + Sorc+ White Scar makes them really good, but with out the pod they had measily 24″ Inches.
            And without Grav they wouldn’t be so good too.

          • shiwan

            A) You got my context wrong.

            B) A unit that can not realistically survive basic shooting attacks of the game but costs as much or more than the unit that is shooting at it while having very little utility value because of the lack of damage output it can muster is a bad unit in any setting. There is a directly comparable unit that you can use fondly named gravturions. You can skip all of the variables they enjoy and they are still far superior. When I played SW i used a single l1 priest with them in a pod and 2 units of oblits could have never achieved what they did regularly.

          • Skathrex

            A) care to elaborate?

            B) I agree the direct 1v1 Comparison is not favourable for Oblits, but thats a very Limited view for a strategic game.
            As I said, the Drop Pod helps a lot.
            But what do Gravturions cost exactly?
            Would Oblits be comparable if they had access to Grav?
            Oblits are a very flexible Unit that doesn’t need much support (it doesn’t have much either)
            Centurions is a higly specialized Unit wich synergizes well with support, which (in contrast to Oblits) it got.
            Thats what makes Centurions better, because specialisation > flexibility.
            For Instants, Grav Cents don’t do anything against a horde army, but then again, those aren’t played in Tournaments (because of the time limits)

          • shiwan

            A) The context is the game. As a whole. Not just some local club.

            B) There is no CSM drop pod. The Kharybdis and Dreadclaw are so badly over priced that is is smarter to take more oblits or skip the oblits too.
            If oblits got grav cannons, amps and the ability to shoot the same weapon every turn and access to safe cheap delivery system and had ATSKNF then sure, they would be comparable in a vacuum.
            Centurions are not less flexible. They have more and better shots available each turn. You need one centurion squad and little luck to kill a WK in one shooting while oblits can not do it.
            Both suck against hordes, oblits lack the shots and centurions lack the right kind of shots. Though, if we insert precience in to the mix centurions win the day easily.

          • Skathrex

            A) You describe your context as beeing the whole game. A context is arbritarily set. I would see your context as the comparison between single Units to each other with the Binary result of either 0 and 1, good or bad. Which gives each faction a number of 0 and 1s and the faction with more 1s is the best. (supportet by tournament data)

            Thats what I was writing about. Your context is diffrent then mine. If I take the whole game I would compare similar to you, but have to resort to estimates when there is not much data (weaker armies) I just take a diffrent scale for the result. Its more 1-10. And after that I use a filter to sinlge out the stronger Units/Factions and concentrate on the weaker ones (or in case of the oblits the midtier).

            B) I know we dont have Pods, that why I said the support is limited for Oblits (I don’t know if Cents can Deep strike, and what do they cost again?)
            If Oblits had Grav, Amps, Delivery and ATSKNF they would be superior, because they are better defensive and they are more flexible.
            On that point. Cents have I weapon, 1 Range. How can you say they are not less Flexible? Yes their Weapon has a lot of good targets in this Meta, but Cents live and die with that Weapon.
            Well 4 shots, Blasts and Templates would disagree with your “sucks against hordes assumption”.

          • shiwan

            A) Either method works, the results stay the same.

            B) Equal because the cents have the best tool in the whole game in their asenal on top of their secondary weapons and shoot more than oblits each turn.

            Templates demand close proximity where you will not put the oblit anyway and the blast is 3″ meaning it hits one target by default and 3 if you are extremely lucky.

          • Charon

            Sorry but this is wrong in so many ways…
            The daemon detachments did not turn out to be pretty good. There is 2 of them which are good. But not because of the formation but because they allow you to spam particular very good daemon units.

            Jetbikes with scatter are better than jetbikes without, yes. But even jetbikes without scatter were staple and widely considered an extremely valuable standard before the scatter atrocity hit.

            The formations do nothing for CSM. They can probably change the style of your army but do not touch the power level at all while most other armies get formations that enhance the power level of already powerful units. THAT is a problem.
            Or you really want to start comparing that 1 mutation per turn to free vehicles?

          • Skathrex

            I have seen the Daemon Decurion in 3 Variations: Nurgle because its cheap, Khorne for the Units and Tzeench for the dice.
            All seem to work.

            True Jetbikes were always good, but not THAT good (which was my point).
            The marines with free Rhinos still wont be bad, but when they all have just Rhinos, Raks and Flamers they probably won’t be winning any tournament, that was the point.
            Writing bad Lists is easy. So don’t talk down on stuff, when you take the worst combination.

            The last part remains to be seen. I think it increases the power lvl a great deal. No where near free vehicles, but enought to matter.
            And you said it perfectly. Other armies have formations that enhance GOOD Units, we don’t really have many good Units. THATS the problem.
            Btw other armies have also have bad Formations, ask Orks, Nids and AM

        • Victor Hartmann

          Where exactly did I try to silence you?

          Why do you ignore what people actually wrote in favor of being argumentative? There’s no way to have a rational discussion with you when your locked in like this.

          As an observer, there are times when you’re objective and I even agree with you sometimes.

          But then there are times like now where you’re so focused on arguing that any poster or information not in line with your narrative must be attacked to the point that you completely miss what they’re saying. Maybe it’s all wrapped up in your need to “be right”.

          Which you called with maybe 1% of the information in front of you.

          How is that intellectually honest? Even basic application of logic would require gathering all the data before stating a conclusion.

          Although, I get it, there’s not much point in responding. You’re just going to continue on your pre concluded rant anyway and fuss at anyone who doesn’t agree with the conclusion that you are determined to drive into the ground.

          So I’ll just leave it with this. You are welcome to whine and panic. Jump to conclusions based on almost zero data. Continue to make CSM players look uninformed and irrational. Meanwhile, my teammates are cracking the code and finding a lot of power in this codex.

          Which player is going to enjoy more fun and success?

          • shiwan

            You didn’t silence me. You tried though when you claimed that I was panicking, ie. afraid of the new formations and their lacking usefulness.

            I did not ignore anything you said. I left out things that did not matter at all.

            If youctually had an argument this could have been a discussion. All you did was an attempted attack and failed at that.

            I have no need to be right. The fact that you even tried to claim that just shows that you are yet again merely trying to attack me instead of using arguments.
            I just usually am right in things like this though there are times when a crucial fact has been left out from my sources. This time I genuinely wish that I am wrong. Can you give me anything that even legitimately challenges theidea that everything new for CSM in this book is crap? Apparently not since all you could muster was a series of ad hominems that were both lacking and untrue.

          • Victor Hartmann

            This starts out harsh. My apologies for that. I started to edit it but after re-reading your posts to myself and others, it is warranted.

            Onward.

            Your response is nonsensical. You’re just making stuff up again.

            No one is trying to silence you. You can ease your mind by putting that bit of fear aside. Prompt you to approach the game rationally from an informed perspective, yes. Silence you, no.

            How can I have a discussion on the basics of the Codex when you can’t even be bothered to read what it says?

            Instead, you spam the comments sections with misinformation and complaints based on your ignorance. Again, how can I or anyone else have a conversation with you when you already assume you are correct when you haven’t even done any research?

            Why should I be the one to educate you on the CSM codex? I’ve read across several articles where others made good and helpful suggestions only to have you trash them for it even though you clearly had not read the details they were talking about and didn’t understand how it worked. Where is the value in even trying to give you positive examples when you refuse to consider them? You’ve clearly made up your mind. Why is it my responsibility to give you even more examples just for you to willfully ignore the positives and attack the negatives? Others have tried, why should I keep trying to do the same thing when you have no interest in any other perspective?

            Hah! Indeed, you’ve completely forgotten that I had given you a positive example: new psychic powers. Your last two sentences are invalid and do not apply.

            My position has been simple and clear from the start: don’t jump to conclusions. Do the research. Try to understand what it is, not what you expect it to be. Basic life lesson: if you always judge others by what you want them to be instead of what they actually are, you will almost always be disappointed and fail to appreciate who they really are.

            I recognize the futility in replying. You’re looking for the argument clinic again and that’s really not my cup of tea. In a way, I apologize for responding at all, correcting you gives me no pleasure and my intent truly is not to demean you or stifle your voice. But hey, maybe the seeds I’ve planted in your mind will bloom, even if you don’t realize it. So, maybe this hasn’t been a complete waste of time. There’s still hope for you.

            Also, I apologize to BoLS in general for helping with the continuation of these marginal side bars. Feeding this kind of negativity is of absolutely no value to the community. I’ll try to resist in the future.

          • shiwan

            Other than the psychic cards you mentioned literally nothing in that is true. Nice rant and all but at least make sure you have the appropriate knowledge before uou start making claims about people you do not know at all. All you did was that you accused me of things I clearly have not done, claimed that I am some things that I clearly am not if you bother to actually read what I write to people who have valid points and/or do not act like d-bags to begin with and then there were plenty of dodges to avoid arguing the actual subject that is CSM instead of me. How about you focus less on me and more on the things we are debating here? ๐Ÿ˜€

            Anyway, about those cards. The one actual leak (unless there’s more today I have yet to see) is in no way a positive omen for things to come. Against the most common units in the game it’s useless. Against the most effective units it’s useless. It does what it’s supposed to do against things that are commonly encountered and the ones that it actually can threaten are a nonissue with or without that power. Invisible wolfstars, WKs and such are the things CSM needs tools against and then they give us anti grot powers.
            It is new to CSM, that is true, but as the the history shows GW is not big on updates that help the enemies of the imperium. The proof of this would be, for example, this Traitor’s hate that does really very little or worse for CSM, all the FAQs for the present CSM codex and updates, the latest DE codex, the latest Orc codex, the latest Nid codex and other material for the faction. All of these are deliberately designed to fail against SM. What are the odds that they will give us psychics that level the field?

          • Victor Hartmann

            “It is new to CSM, that is true, but as the the history shows GW is not big on updates that help the enemies of the imperium. The proof of this would be, for example, this Traitor’s hate that does really very little or worse for CSM, all the FAQs for the present CSM codex and updates, the latest DE codex, the latest Orc codex, the latest Nid codex and other material for the faction. All of these are deliberately designed to fail against SM. What are the odds that they will give us psychics that level the field?”

            And you prove my observations to be correct. Again. You neither read what I had posted previously nor have you done any research. The SM and CSM psychic powers are the same. All of them, according to reports. Only the description is different. So the new psychic powers are indeed on a level playing field between SM and CSM.

            FAQs are Frequently Asked Questions, not rewriting the game. They simply clarify what the rules already state. Sometimes they effect the game in profound ways but that’s a side effect. Actual changes are introduced via supplements and data slates. The whole “deliberately designed to fail” is inaccurate and another example of spreading misinformation based on ignorance. Exampe: Nid players noted some powerful boosts made possible due to the FAQs that they could exploit. Specifically, newly created units would be Objective Secured if they were from the Troops slot. Previously, players had considered them to be merely scoring, not OS. Being able to create and flood the field with OS troops at no additional points cost is an excellent boost.

            Not mention the nerfs introduced to Space Marines via FAQs which you are willfully ignoring in your premise. No more sharing transports. Combining Chapter Tactics not only don’t stack, they cancel each other out. Chapter Tactics are lost when combining with BA, SW, & DA. Undercuts the whole “history shows GW is not big on updates that help the enemies of the imperium”. The aforementioned FAQs helped the enemies of the Imperium quite a bit.

            In regards to the remainders of your missive . . . the seeds have already been planted and are taking root. There is no need for further fertilization.

          • shiwan

            Your observation about me is what you want it to be. It’s seemingly hard for you to accept that you can not out argue a person using enotion based logic when that person does not care about your emotions.

            Where can I see those powers to check if your claim holds true or am I supposed to take your claim as the truth merely because you say so?

            CSM faq has both made and killed the drake by going fron uncertainty to logically sound and finally to the present “drakes can not be werth the point because whiny marine players”. Even the various faction FAQ drafts we have now blatantly change the rules. So, no matter what they are supposed to do they do what you claim they are dot doing. Then there are erratas on top of that.

            Those boosts for nids changed nothing, tervigons are still of no use and die as soon as something glances at it sideways. That, and the fact that those gaunts die when it dies means that it is still one of the stupidest buys to a list a nid player can make. It’s still all about the flyrants.

            What are these nerfs marines got? All you mentioned was some changes that makes marines behave like marines instead of Admech taxi service. Also, if I’m going to have to believe your claim that FAQs don’t change rules then these “changes” were not changes but clarifications because imperial players cheated.

      • MPSwift

        “Maybe that’s why Chaos doesn’t have ATSKNF. They panic at first sign of doubt. Hadn’t made that connection before.” We shouldn’t mock the afflicted (CSM players) but this did make me chuckle ๐Ÿ˜›

        • nurglitch

          The CSM are typified by a breakdown in morale and discipline.

    • Kazzigum

      And I too was right … it can’t get any worse. I actually like some of the stuff I’m seeing here, though I’ll be honest — it’s nothing like as good as the loyalists get. Still, we haven’t seen the full new psychic powers yet, and there may still be new relics that’ll be fun and/or powerful.

      Also, why would you take pride in the fact (?) that you right it wouldn’t be good enough? Shouldn’t that rather sadden you?

      • shiwan

        The truth does not make me sad. Facts just are, they have no alignment ir intent. Honesty is a great thing that a modern person brings forth far too rarely.

        What saddens me is that I could have explained this game to my mother in ten minutes well enough that she could have not done worse than the people who conjured this book.

  • LordKrungharr

    I’m always happy when I get to run more obliterators. Don’t know what that formation does yet but 15 on the table is good hard fun!

    I think the boon roll each turn is awesome for someone like a juggerlord. If one could use a crimson slaughter version with deamo heart even better but not sure that will be allowed for this big detachment?

    • shiwan

      Compared to what? Remember that your opponents are either scatter spams, grav spams, sD spams, warp spider spams, deathstars or a combination of these. How does it help you to have 15 50% too costly things with relatively low damage output, 5+ save and are always wounded on rolls of 2+? How does making your 200p lord a spawn help?

      • SYSTem050

        My opponents are none of those things but hey I play against what was it “ineffective” opponents.

        • shiwan

          You do not play against the armies/lists that matter to be honest. Have fun and all. That being said a thing is viable in a tournament or it’s useless. Look at nids, 2 unit faction.

        • Stealthbadger

          Your view sounds like:- ‘I play to have fun/socialise’

          His is:- tournament viable or garbage.

          You’ll never agree on what us good or bad I’m afraid.

    • Charon

      The bonus is that each warpsmith in the formation can channel a unit of obliterators or mutilators.
      Obliterators get to shoot twice and Mutilators get to fight twice. Not that great as the warpsmith for each unit is a terrible tax.

      • Karru

        Don’t forget to add that those Obliterators cannot shoot the same gun twice. This also means I cannot shoot the same 2 guns in the next turn. Also, no switching targets, so not so good, but at least it is something.

  • DarkSeren1ty

    I read all the rules for all the formations except 1. The cult troop formation. Thus far, I can say that we have 3 good formations, 4 average formations and the remaining are meh to downright stupid.

    • shiwan

      Out of those none give us anything to fight against SW or anything that came after BA, I would guess.

      • DarkSeren1ty

        Some of these rules actually are decent. The problem for me is the overcasting of these units. Points reductions would give us a fighting chance, especially for upgrades!

        • shiwan

          Sure, CSM would be ok if their upgrades were all free.

          • DarkSeren1ty

            Not all the upgrades.. But having cheaper or free marks would be nice in lieu of chapter tactics.

          • shiwan

            Being in lieu with chapter tactics is not enough since there are formation bonuses on top of those. A fearless 5 man CSM squad with T5 is roughly equivalent to 5 man tac squad.

          • Brian Griffith

            Also getting marks in lieu of chapter tactics totally shafts Undivided legions/warbands thematically.

            It’s an absurd proposition, akin to saying there’s only four space marine chapters.

        • TenDM

          Good to see someone actually thinking about the rules and giving them a chance instead of dismissing them at a glance. I don’t expect this detachment to catapult CSM players to the top of the tournament ladders but sometimes it takes a good hard look before the potential of a rule becomes clear.

    • Matt Craufurd

      The cultist formation lets dead units come back on a 4+ indefinitely, and they also get outflank.

      • Brian Griffith

        Though the Cult of Slaughter (Crimson Slaughter) formation is a much more effective tarpit, since getting slain returned to their original units saves you the trouble of slogging them across the table again.

      • DarkSeren1ty

        Sorry, I should have specified. I meant the veterans of the legions formation. Thousand sons, plague marines, etc…

      • Karru

        It is nice thematically, but in actual game it’s more or less useless. First you have to roll 4+ to get them, then you have to roll for reserve and finally you have to roll for outflank. Way too much RNG to make it useful. It’s not the worst thing in the world, it’s just not good.

        • Skathrex

          No roll for reserve, they are placed in ongoing reserve.

          • Karru

            Oh. I literally never knew that it worked like that! I just thought it was a fliers thing that they came back automatically from reserve. I’m a smart cookie, I swear!

          • nurglitch

            We all make mistakes. I think it’ll be a while before we’ve all digested what the Black Crusade can do.

    • shiwan

      Now that I’ve read them my face hurts from all the face palms. They are all useless.

  • Brian Griffith

    Most of what this does is remove Veterans of the Long War as a points tax. That makes Black Legion a bit more viable if you combine the two books (which is presumably legal).

    Kharn’s fight-and-fight-s’more formation could be pretty fun assuming you can get them into range. Big if on that, though.

    The Helforged Warpack is kind of a weird hybrid between the Helfist Murderpack (Helbrute dataslate) and the Daemon Engine Pack (Black Legion) and I kind of think it suffers from not doing what either of those formations do particularly well. If I were fielding it as just daemon engines or just helbrutes I’d do either of those instead, and I’m not sure if I see a particular advantage to mixing and matching. If you’re really lucky on the dice rolls you could take the Warpack for the extra daemon forge shots, but just pray you don’t blow your guys up.

    Otherwise, totally don’t understand GW’s insistence on giving out formations that are just a CAD but worse.

    • Brian Griffith

      And also I should say that if your heart’s set on massed helbrutes you’d do better with the Mayhem Pack. It comes with a delivery method, and the FAQed extra attacks give it a real chance of ruining some loyalist’s Christmas.

  • Dan Wilson

    The glaring omission here is the Cyclopean cabal as an HQ option. One of the strongest formations and they left it out… Other than that I’m relatively happy. Lots of cultists, vindicators, forgefiend and spawn.

    • Brian Griffith

      I’d argue that they couldn’t do that, as requiring you to buy two books just to use this one wouldn’t be a very smart business decision on their part.

      Beyond which, nothing really stops you from tossing one in. Same faction, still Battle-forged. All you’re really losing is Hatred.

      • nurglitch

        And the automatic Boon roll every turn for every champion.

        • shiwan

          Every champion?

          • nurglitch

            Oops, I read that wrong. You pick a Champion of Chaos and ring up its Boon.

          • shiwan

            At least the every champion systen could have worked, by accident, but anyway.

  • I’l wait to see more before I make any real conclusions but this seems like more of GW pandering to Khorne armies. In the above I see detachment special rules designed to help armies that want to be in close combat (Khorne) and on top of that it includes 2 Khorne formations. Im really hoping the veterans of the legions formation has some special rules that make Rubric Marines, Plaguemarines, and Noise Marines actually somewhat worth their huge pts costs.

    It seems GW has been Hellbent on making Chaos mostly about Khorne over the last couple years. Look at AoS, release after release after release of Khorne models. Considering that Khorne marines already have a full codex that is Khorne oriented in the form of KDK I was kinda hoping these new formations would bring in the opportunity to field other god faction, but no, here we go again with yet more rules to benefit Khorne.

    • shiwan

      You can see the formations by going to their source.

      • The veterans of the legions one seems to be missing at the source.

        • shiwan

          Looking at the rest of them they probably get marks for free.

  • shiwan

    I love this picture. It fits with the theme of this book perfectly. The guidelines GW can not follow but assumes we do. It’s not like they have not isolated some of the fans by deliberately nerfing their factions to the point they can not be used. It’s not like that hasn’t ruined the hobby for those fans. It’s not like that being their intent was not bullying or making their achievements irrelevant.

    Hilarious. ๐Ÿ˜€

  • Matt Craufurd

    The Heldrake Vector Striking rule doesn’t work. Its impossible. Lets say I shoot at a unit, and it goes to ground. Then in their turn they are no longer going to ground. Then in my turn the Heldrake swoops over them, they have no longer gone to ground so how can i get the d6 vector strikes? Its literally impossible to get.

    • shiwan

      Classic CSM.

    • Stealthbadger

      As far as I can see it works on any unit that is pinned, falling back or has gone to ground. It doesn’t seem to require the hell drake to have caused that.

      As such if the enemy unit hasn’t rallied in your opponents turn, such as low leadership troops like guard, then you could do this type of attack. It’s probably not going to happen often but going from d3 to d6 against those types of units isn’t game changing anyway I guess.

      • Karru

        Since Vector Strikes are done at the end of the movement phase, it is nigh impossible to do. Gone to Ground models get up before this one can trigger. Pinned units do the same thing. Units falling back are the only units suffering from this, but even then, most of the time they are either already “dead” or they automatically rally.

        • Stealthbadger

          Good good point. So it really only applies to falling back units, which as you say, are pretty boned anyway most of the time. So it’s probably even rarer than I first realised but it’s still not much of a buff really.

          Don’t suppose chaos have any clever movement phase tricks to force pinning, go to ground or fall back.

          Thinking about it can you tank shock in the movement phase? Could be funny to trigger the fall back if so?

        • nurglitch

          Tank shock?

          • Karru

            It only causes them to fall back if they fail the LD check, which in most cases won’t happen, but still a valid point. It’s more the insanity of the Pinning/Gone to Ground that makes me sad. As far as the rules goes you cannot be Pinned/Gone to Ground by the time these guys come Vector Striking, or can you? Since you automatically get unpinned after the end your turn and Gone to Ground does the same, so when are you supposed to use that ability?

    • Clearly a mismatch of RAI vs RAW. I imagine it was supossed to be cooler and they didn’t play test it or work it right when doing so. I imagine it will be eratta’d. Easy fix is “A unit a Heldrake Terror Pack vector strikes must make a LD test. If they fail, they suffer d6 hits instead of 1”

      • shiwan

        Still weak.

  • DeCold

    All the stuff leaked and it is kinda better than before, but still less than a mediocre.

  • Painjunky

    It’s Craptastic!!

    Sorry CSM players.

  • Karru

    Time for my review of the formations. This includes all of them, since they have already been released, but BOLS wants to save them for more articles, just google them.

    I can give a TL;DR right now. In the words of the immortal Critic: IT STINKS! Now then, this is gonna be a long one, if you want to read it take some popcorn and get comfortable. If you are someone who doesn’t actually want to add to the conversation instead you opt to post a “you are just bad player who wants an I-Win-button”, please go ahead and write it on a note pad and put it next to the comment on your screen instead of posting it here. I want to have an actual conversation, correcting things that I might have overlooked, tactics I might have missed or actual uses for things.

    First the entire Detachment. Double Hatred (Imperium) right of the bat and you get Veterans of the Long War for free, yay… Not the best start and unfortunately we only get a roll on the boon table, which again isn’t great either.

    The sorcerer conclave thing isn’t in the book so that puts a big hinder on everything especially when they decided to release shiny new psychic powers for us.

    Now the Warband. It’s 4/10 formations AKA below average. You don’t have a choice regarding HQ, since you always have to take a Chaos Lord. It does have flexibility in the form of actually getting to pick your units, but it still way too big all things considered. You do get Ob. Sec. on everything which is nice, also this formation has the “Favoured Scions” rule.

    Maelstrom of Gore, fluffy and might be fun to play, but very, very bad overall. 1 Chaos Lord or Kharn and 4-8 units of Berserkers. They get Fleet and add 3″ to their charge distances which is fun. Red Rain rule they gain allows them to fight in CC a second time in the movement phase, only problem that I see here is that if a ‘zerker unit has managed to get into CC, the target is most likely already dead or ‘zerkers cannot even hurt it. Also Lord gets Mark of Khorne for free.

    The Lost and the Damned suffers from hard RNG. Your dead cultist units get back on a roll of a 4+. Then they are placed in to reserve where you have to roll to bring them back. Finally they gain outflank and you have to roll for that as well. The Dark Apostle makes these guys nigh impossible to break thanks to his LD 10 and charge from that many cultist can look cool and be quite terrifying. All in all, it is quite fun formation, very fluffy which I agree with.

    That’s Core Formations done, now to the Auxiliary ones! If you are Iron Warriors fan, you are going to love all the mechanic ones, since all of them require you to take the Warpsmith. Hellforged Warpack sounds very fun and I’m looking forward to fielding it. You can use your Daemonforge ability twice during game as long as the Warpsmith is alive. One of the walkers have to be chosen as the “Alpha”. It gains a 4+ Invulnerable save and becomes a Character and if it dies all other Warpack models gain Rage special rule. This makes me want to make a heavily battered Maulerfiend! Again, very fluffy formation so to the top of the list it goes!

    Heldrake Terror Pack only really gains the Rising Terror rule. Depending on the amount of Drakes within 12″ of the enemy unit they suffer 1, 2 or 3 to their LD. They get the Merciless Pursuit rule that makes their Vector Strikes do D6 attacks on units that have Gone to Ground or are pinned or falling back. The problem here is that the Vector Strike is done at the end of the movement phase, so all units that have gone to ground or are pinned are already up and running always. Only units you can target are those that are running. I don’t like this formation for two reasons, one is the mostly useless special rule and the other is that it forces me to spam a unit which I don’t like, but the LD thing is fun.

    Cult of Destruction. I really wanted to like this formation and it is strong but it suffers from a major design flaw. Warpsmiths can make Obliterators shoot twice or make Mutilators attack twice. Only they cannot switch targets and they are not allowed to use the same weapon twice. This also carries over to the next turn. So if I fire my Obliterators using Lascannons against a tank, I have to hope that those guys are within 24″ since now only my Multi-melta can do something since they have to shoot at the same target. Next turn I have to shoot at infantry, since all my long range AT is used. This formations had so much potential, they could’ve easily made it so that the Obliterators can shoot at different target or use same weapon twice, but no. Still, it’s something so it makes the cut for me.

    Fist of the Gods. We got Squadrons! This one is worse than the SM one, the Armoured Task Force. All vehicles gain 6+ Invulnerable save while within 12″ of the Warpsmith and the repair bonus. To me that is a lot worse than the ignore Shaken/Stunned result of the SM book even if it’s only within 6″. But Squadrons are in so I’m happy!

    Raptor Talon was everything I hoped for until I got to the part where we get reminded that we are not in fact Space Marines and if we are lucky and get the same thing it has to be worse. These guys get to Assault in the turn they come from Deep Strike, just like the Skyhammer formations for the Space Marines, YAY! But they count it as a Disordered Charge, BOO! Also they give -2 to enemy LD that gets charged by two or more Raptor/Warp Talon units, situational but it’s there to help at least. Lord gets a Jump Pack for free. If the damn Disordered Charge wasn’t there, this one would be the one I’d field to every game. I love Raptors and Warp Talons, but it still stings that you cannot charge normally.

    The Favoured of Chaos offers a lot of conversion and cool model ideas with the Possessed and the Daemon Prince, but that’s about it. The Possessed gain all three mutations from the basic CSM book while within 12″. This does make them extremely devastating in CC, 4 Attacks with base initiative of 5 that re-roll wounds and are AP3 sounds absolutely devastating on paper. The only problem I have with this one is the fact that they still suffer from the lack of speed. If they could move 12″ a turn, they would be terrifying, but the need to take transports, having to make the units big enough so take can withstand casualties from a round of free shots and finally the attempt to actually get to CC makes them extremely situational and weak. It is very fun formation that I will most likely make just because I like Possessed since I can make them cool looking with things like Green Stuff.

    The Trinity of Blood is a joke unless they made the Lord of Skulls cost less than 400pts so I won’t even go there.

    Overall, the book is everything you can expect from a CSM supplement. Bad in almost every possible way with only the coolness factor to carry them to moral victory. The winner formations are Lost and the Damned as well as the Hellforged Warpack. The losers are Raptor Talon and Cult of Destruction. The winners are fluffy and fun to field and the losers had such missed opportunities to be the same, but no. If you came to look for the saviour for CSM, sorry to disappoint, but it’s not this book. It’s just a massive missed opportunity that adds very little to CSM in terms of “decurion”.

    Once again, if you don’t have anything meaningful to add to the conversation, keep it to yourself. If you have something to add to this list or you disagree with me AND ACTUALLY HAVE SOMETHING TO BACK IT UP WITH, then please go ahead. I’d like to have an actual conversation where tactics and ideas are exchanged, so no “u ar bad player so go kil urself”, please.

    • shiwan

      I think you rated this too high unless you compare them to sisters or nids.

      • Karru

        I’m not rating them in terms of effectiveness only. I also like to take into consideration things like fluffiness and conversion options and overall fun For example, the Hellforged Warpack, I can make a badass looking Character Maulerfiend. The Lost and the Damned is the same thing, I can make a cool looking horde of cultists that swarm the enemy lines (in theory) under their unending wave. I also realised that you can make them Plague Zombies.

        • shiwan

          So, from the hobby point of view it’s not all bad but on the table it’s…utter crap?

          • Karru

            I see most of these heavily situational. Some will have their uses in casual scene like the one I have, but most of these are either way overpriced (in CSM standards) or just useless.

          • shiwan

            Well, the way GW designed the game to be played “situatuonal” seems to be synonymous with useless.

          • Karru

            In high level tournament meta, yes. In a casual scene, not so much.

          • shiwan

            So “yes”. You can house rule things in to balance in a setting that is not bound by the visions of the arranging party.

          • Karru

            I can see the use for most of the formation in my local meta. All of the are useful since we don’t spam units, instead we opt for the more interesting approach with a lot of different units. We don’t really use house rules, like you can’t take Knights or fliers for example.

          • shiwan

            Sounds awesome. If this works for you, great. I just care about the game as a whole, not just my experience (which would not change by this anyway).

  • Muninwing

    my old Thousand Sons are still utterly unplayable. and there’s a lot of other problems just not being addressed here… so thanks i guess? but just not enough.

  • Mike Linke

    It’s not bad. I would have preferred the chance a formation that helps my thousand sons, and I’m hoping that the Kharne + Berzerkers formation is a template that will be applied to the other cults eventually.

    I’m surprised that the formations from the Black Legion supplement aren’t useable in a Black Legion detachment!

    • Karru

      They seem to lack them in a big way, considering that this is supposed to be Black Legion and Crimson Slaughter invading.

  • Zack Seiders

    wonder what special rules the 3 warpsmith related formations get? (special rules for the formations period… sucks that we are stuck with the boon table every turn but least we get to pick which one. Also free votlw as well as the hq’s rerolling boon table is nice in covering up such a horrid rule, as well as having hatred against ALL imperium forces. As well as the option to go cheap with the core choices (minimize the amount of units in the chaos warband formation OR just get lost and the damned.) Just hope the rest of the rules are actually good.

    • Karru

      I have a very long comment here on the thread that goes trough them all and my opinions on them, but just a word of advice, keep your standard as high as the Mariana trench.

  • nurglitch

    Anyone know if the Black Legion can sub in their Warband and formations?

    • Karru

      As far as I know, nope. Surprised that is the case, but can’t you take them along side these ones as separate formations much like the multiple CADs?

      • nurglitch

        Oh, I was just hoping the Black Crusade rules would stack with them. Free VoLW would be peachy for the Black Legion.

  • grumzimus

    Well at least my Night Lords might get out of the box and start being used again! Iron Warriors will be rejoicing as well.I’m cautiously optimistic that this will at least add some flavour to my gaming again. Though smacks of “You’re still not getting Legion rules in your next Codex” to me ๐Ÿ˜› But meh, lets take the half full view.

    Might as well burn the GW vouchers that are aging slowly in my drawer on something. They’ve not released anything worth purchasing since IA13.

    • nurglitch

      Rather than burning them, do you want to send those vouchers to me?

      • grumzimus

        I think they’re as out of date as the Fear special rule ๐Ÿ˜›

  • Graeme Donaldson

    I like how there’s a frigging Khorne “Core” section but none for the other gods. I run a Noise Marine army, Chaos Lord, Noise Marines as Troops. Can I use this new detachment? Doesn’t look like it.
    Along with that goofy new “look I’m gliding” Kharn model and the Traitor’s Hate release this is just more CSM going in a direction I don’t want. Where are my Slaanesh/Tzeentch/Nurgle Daemonkin books?

  • euansmith

    Slave of Darkness? Why not consenting adults who have made an informed decision to pursue an agenda focusing on personal choice and freedom of will… of Darkness?

    • nurglitch

      “Slaves” is hotter.

  • E65

    When looking at these detachment choices I always think: “My! The GW marketing department are forever optimistic!”

    3 x Lord of skulls at how many points (money)?

    • Orthon234

      hilarious, lol.

  • Koszka

    Favored by the gods is amazing! Now if the possessed from crimson slaughter can be used….

    • shiwan

      Can’t….

      • Koszka

        I know. It would be awesome though.

        • shiwan

          True.

      • Zack Seiders

        Already stated what the possessed in the dp formation get. Unless the dp can join said squad of possessed (monsterous creatures normally cannot join any squad save for hive tyrants and tyrant guard) it just makes the dp a bigger target. While ap 3 strength 5 shred at initiative 5 at 3 attacks each sounds nice, possessed still need to actually get into close combat. Overall… too many points for such situational units.

  • Kolobius

    I don’t even play CSM or know much about them and I know that these suck in comparison to what the other factions are getting. I feel sorry for you Chaos players

    • shiwan

      Thanks for saying it like it is.

  • Orthon234

    The new CSM build (1820 points):

    -The Lost and the Damned (apostle w/9x cultists w/flamers)
    -Heldrake terror pack 4x heldrake
    -15x nurgle spawn

    Codex cultist, heldrake, & spawn is alive and well!

  • Crablezworth

    Remember when 40k wasn’t apoc?

  • Malisteen

    Forgettable. Nice for black legion at least, if they weren’t playing pure chosen armies, since it gets you out of the vet tax. Otherwise, not much reason to bother.

    At least it isn’t just outright insulting, like the terminator formation.

  • Admiral Raptor

    This is hilariously bad! Whelp at least we CSM players can continue annoying the rest of the fan base for the rest of 7th edition. :p

    It could have been another angels of death, instead we got a phoned in supplement half copied from old awful supplements.

  • Michael Cividanes

    We get VotLW for free! I’ll call that a damned welcomed and good start!

    • shiwan

      If the rule did something in the game it could help. As it is, it’s doing nothing.

      • Michael Cividanes

        I mean granted it’s not ATSKNF, but it does make your basic CSM LD9. VotLW is something that should have free if you took Abaddon from Day one. Giving us a Black Crusade formation that finally makes it free, well it’s finally SOMETHING! After the slaps in the face CSM has been given over the last 4 years, I’ll take anything that is actually of benefit even if the benifit is only an extraordinarily minor one.

        • shiwan

          I guess GW thought that this tactic was a valid one. Beat them regularly so that when you actually give them something, anything at all, they are grateful. ๐Ÿ˜€

          • Michael Cividanes

            I can’t really disagree with that.

          • Michael Cividanes

            Though I’m still waiting for Abaddon to make Terminators troops.

          • shiwan

            If they cut the cost in half, so am I. Otherwise it’s meaningless.

    • Hunlow

      It should have always been free like SM get ATSKNF for free i think the turning point for Chaos is when we get marks for free…

  • Orthon234

    Supplement Warpsmith Tax

    -Hatred armies of the Imperium does nothing against xenos.
    -Helforged warpack: Warpsmith tax
    -Veternas of the legion: Does nothing and they aren’t troops.
    -Heldrake Terror Pack: Does nothing. Not usable.
    -Cult of destruction: Warpsmith tax
    -Fist of Gods: Warpsmith tax. 6++ is pretty much nothing.
    -Raptor Talon: Pretty ok. Difficult to mitigate scatter.
    -Terminator: rules?
    -Favored of Chaos: Prince is too fast. Does nothing. Possessed are worse than the Black Legion one.
    -Trinity of Blood: LOL
    -Spawn: No extra rules (nothing), but probably the best choice.

    • Hunlow

      This isn’t an epic win but a step in the right direction. Hatred Imperium is nasty vs AM and Sisters plus it is always solid vs the ubiquitous SM army which makes up the majority of armies you’ll see anyway. There is potential in the aux spots with the raptor talon, cult of destruction and helforged warpack. It’s not a top tier army for sure but try to have a little fun with the new stuff before you completely write it off!

  • Christopher Conway

    After reading the restrictions could you use the crimson slaughter version of posessed rather than the codex CSM version? The restrictions say all units music be from faction chaos space marines right so is that possible? Im new to formations ect I just play with a CAD myself

    • shiwan

      CS is technically ok unless you aim to go with the possessed and DP.

  • shiwan

    Feel joy my fellow heralds of ruinous powers. You can have a DP with the possessed from CS (unless it’s FAQd otherwise). The supplement prevents you from TAKING veterans but does not deny you the possibility to have it.

    Yeah, rules lawyering, but can you honestly blame any CSM player for it at this point?

  • Mr.Gold

    for the veterans of the legions formation is it 1-4 or 2-4 i cant quite make it out?

    • shiwan

      Looks like 1.

  • Mr.Gold

    With this suppliment, where do the characters choose relics
    from: the Black Legion Suppliment or the main Chaos Codex? are there
    where does the warlord choose his trait from? BL/CSM?

    • shiwan

      Well, since it’s just a detachment you’d choose from the parent or sub faction books.

  • Hunlow

    I think this is a huge step in the right direction but still lacking for competitive players. From the perspective of a Black Legion player I will be saving around 130 points in my army because of this decurion which is pretty significant. If chaos marks were somehow included as free in more then just the Khorne formation I think they would be cooking with fire. While my expectations are still pretty low for this I am excited about potentially getting 4 or more rolls on the boon table in a round for my Chaos Lord because im going all in on boon table and making him as bare bones as possible. Does this make CSM top tier? No way. Is it better in friendly/fluffy matches? 1000% yes which is way more important.

    • shiwan

      I don’t honestly think that most players are there to just move plastic and roll dice. I think most want close games. To these people this book does nothing.

      I’m glad that you get joy from it though.

  • Aaron

    I cant see how to take Abbadon in a decurion of his own legion, am I missing something?

    • Mr.Gold

      instead of taking a Chaos Lord you can take almost any of the Special Characters in CSM, except Ahriman who replaces a sorcerer.

  • StarkRaver

    I think this might be part of some masterplan by GW….they’ve essentially made CSM fans as bitter and twisted as their in game counterparts

    • Nubu

      I think you cracked their code.

      Who knows, maybe CSM gets a codex that makes this supplement good.