Goatboy 40k: CSMs, Do You Feel Betrayed?



Goatboy talks Traitor’s Hate and breaks down The Good, The Bad & the Ugly for the new CSMs.


What the Imperium fears most.

Goatboy here again and today we want to talk about what my “favorite” army in 40k is getting this week.  While overall – it feels a bit lackluster I still think it gives the Chaos Space Marines a lot of tools to actually bring them from the bottom ranks.  I don’t know if it will get past the gate keeper armies (Tau/Necrons) but they at least have a shot – especially when utilizing some of the other formations available to them.  Will get a basic rundown of what I think is Good, what feels kinda ok, and what is probably never going to be seen on the table top.


The Good

First of all – the powerful spells from Angels of Death have come to the Chaos Space Marines.  I am still a bit miffed they are no changes to the actual rules – it still is a good thing as using the Cabal should mean you have a few chances to throw out a Null Zone or two.  This will be a huge boon to keep the Bark Bark stars at bay as well as some other “death stars” that rely  on low invulnerable saves.  Lucky for Chaos – the Null Zone power “discipline” is full of other great things that are useful to any evil sorcerer of Chaos.  The Sinistrum Discipline will be most likely used the most – after the Cabal gets the Sanctic powers and Biomancy powers they need.

The other disciplines are the exact same so most events ban the other powerful ones.  Still if you are playing against Knights or utilizing a ton of Maulerfiends – the Heretech aka the Technomancy discipline isn’t terrible at all.  It really just lets Chaos have access to any kind of Psychic answer they need right now.  Their version of Phase Form is great for this armies using the Chaotic Rapier batteries of a few “double gun” knights that would love to throw in 24 bullets of death.

Overall the new powers are a good thing – but it again doesn’t change the top “Chaos Space Marine” army as it just gives more power to the Cabal and any friends that join up with the gang of Black Legion sorcerers.  I expect more Cabals to show up – either combo’d with KDK Ally and Daemon CAD – or some other kind of formation block utilizing a Gore Pack and dual Cabals for maximum jerk bag utilizing two take over a unit and shoot powers.


Is the CSM psychic glass half empty, or half full?

After that there are a few good formations in the book.  The “best” one to me seems to be the Raptor Talon.  Chaos have a hard time getting to people and crossing the killing field.  This formations gives you a Chaos Lord with a Free Jump Pack, 3-5 units of Raptors/Warp Talons, and the added ability of being able to deep strike, land, and assault with a disorderly charge.  There are a ton of games where just a formation like this would be all Chaos need to help disrupt your opponents plans, get a cool close combat character stuck in, and maybe get lucky with some sweet boon rolls.

Speaking of Boon Rolls – the new “core” battle company for Chaos is not terrible as well.  The biggest extra rule it has is everything is objective secured.  There are a few too many taxes in the formation but having everyone be objective secured is huge.  The other add on is the ability to roll 2 times on the boon chart and pick he one you want.  When you combo this with the new “decision/battlehost/etc” you get to roll twice and keep both rolls.  The Battle Host adds the extra rule that the beginning of any friendly turn you get to pick a character, roll twice, and then pick one or both of the abilities.  This means that Chaos Lord is going to be bonkers pretty quickly.  The granted of free Veterans of the Long War as well as Hatred: Imperium is pretty spicy.  Just wait to see powered up Spawn Stars coming to your town, taking your candy, and driving down your property values.


I love candy – especially your’s 🙂

The Maulerfiend formation (it lets you take other evil machines but we all know the Maulerfiends are the best) is also a very powerful addition.  I have always loved the model and the ability to take 3-5 is pretty awesome.  You get an Alpha beast that gets a +1 to their Inv save and when he dies the other robots get rage.  6 Attack Maulerfiends sound delicious to me. Even the “Warp Smith” tax is ok as he can easily join up with a unit of Chaos Space Marines and give them some added punch.  They also get to use their Daemonforge twice which is pretty fun. If you take them in the big Battle Host he can even get a boon or two as needed to help give him more punching power.  I have always loved the idea of running a ton of Maulerfiends and this might be the chance I get.  Heck I got an idea using a Tetrad and this formation too.  Robots just coming at you hard core.

The final decent formation is the Lost and the Damned option as I think you can take Typhus and take a ton of reanimating zombies that are going to be a pain in the butt.  They lose objective secured so I don’t know if just taking a CAD and Typhus is better but it is a thought as the Battlehost/decurion can just take a Chaos Lord/Sorcerer etc.  I like how you have all the HQ options as right now in most Marine armies – there is no way to just take a single Librarian as an HQ choice in the core options.  Overall I think there is a ton of good in the Formations.


The Ugly

The possessed formation would be awesome if it could be field as a Crimson Slaughter faction.  I was almost excited to play some of the FW possessed, a rad mutated daemon prince, and utilize some of the other Chaos Space Marine options.  Oh well – it is probably for the best as a ton of 3++ guys who got a Cursed Earth off would be rough for some mid tier armies.  Still I applaud how the formation is designed as it feels pretty fluffy and fun.

The biggest Enh for me is the fact the powers are direct copies of the good guy powers.  I like that we got them – but with so many abilities nerfed (for good reason) in the ITC (the system I play in the most) it makes it kinda of a moot set of options.  I would have loved to see a revamped set of Chaos Powers like the Daemons got as well.  I think we could have just gotten them and then the “Librarius” version and had a really awesome book.

I wish more thought was put in for the Renegade Knights as well.  I like that the Renegade Knights get the most weapon options but it would have been neat to see updated, marked, and relic options for the bad guys.  I am sure fluff wise these Knights are not too organized and important in the grand scheme of things like the other Imperial and lordy like knights.  I was just hoping for more Options but I think I would just replace them with being good and the Renegade knight is at least a good unit.

wd 116 knights cover

I’m super evil – my faceplate has a hole in it. 

The Heldrake formation is just an odd bird.  It has some powerful abilities but some of it doesn’t work.  The hitting more with a vector strike on a pin requires you to pin them before hand and not because of the Heldrake itself.  It just doesn’t really work.  But there is hope with this one if you design a list to abuse massed Psychic Shrieks.  I hear the Cabal, Gorepack, and this formation is a nice clean combo of force a ton of shrieks down your opponent’s throat.  Plus you get to burn all your enemies in massed flamer bits of death.

The Fist of the Gods, while having a fun name, is kind of an odd duck.  I think there might be a place for 3 Vindicators that are Daemonically Possessed and throwing out a huge pie plate of doom.  I am pretty sure that is too many points to make it worthwhile but it isn’t terrible.  This leads into the fact Chaos gets 1-3 units of Predators and Vindicators.  I like they got it but when was the last time you saw any kind of vehicle like that on the competitive table top?  The only time I have seen them is in the Iron Hands Medusa combo as it ends up being cheaper then a normal Demi Battle Company.  Plus you look different and winning with different stuff is what makes you better.

You would have thought the Cabal would have been a part of the big Chaos Warband host.  It is probably a good thing as it would have meant you could of set up some nutty Warband combos.  Still if this is a Black Legion they need the nerd crew to help cast spells, and break the system.


The Bad

Where are my new relics?  Where are my new Warlord traits?  Where is the beef?  There feels like a lot missing in this book.  I was hoping for me – the rumored Veteran traits, updated Chaos Marks, and heck having Kharn actually have Eternal Warrior.  I am happy for any Chaos love but this felt like the pity booty call cause you look so sad.  I just wish I could get the chance to help write and figure out some new Chaos stuff.

I think Kharn not being added to the KDK army list is a big miss.  It would have been awesome to have him lead some crazy doggies into a murder town.  He would have called ahead, asked them to have some non dairy food options for Steve the Lactose intolerant Flesh Hound, and then brought the pain during their home coming.  Still the model looks really good and I will have one coming to me soon (Thanks Jason at Frontline Gaming).    I wish it didn’t cost so dang much.


If I don’t get added to KDK lists I’m gonna kill someone!

The Cult of Destruction formation really needs to have the Obliterator/Mutilator fixed before it could ever hope to be good.  I don’t care how many extras you throw on it – the Mutilators just don’t don enough to justify using them.  I think a point drop, some rule changes, and maybe some updates to being fearless and other options would finally make this unit good – but for right now this formation is in the garbage pin.

Finally we have the why do you have this formation?  The Trinity of Blood is 3 Lords of Skulls smashed up into one big fat annoying formation.  The rules are alright and really the only saving grace is the FW Kytan walker that has some rules that allow you to swap out any Lord of Skull choice for one.  It is cheaper and actually not completely terrible.  Still – there is no way this will show up anywhere to be of use so it is just a junky and goofy formation.

Overall I give the book a B- as while it doesn’t give a ton of interesting stuff it does gives us new stuff.  Which is good and that will help bring Chaos up and above some of the lower tier armies.  I don’t see it changing a ton of things as the Cabal will always show up in any Chaos based list.

Goatboy Traitor’s Hate Army

Here is a dumb Boon heavy list that probably won’t work that well but it is a fully Chaos Space Marine army.

Black Crusade Detachment
Chaos Warband
Chaos Lord, Bike, Lightning Claw, Powerfist, Mark of Nurgle, Sigil of Corruption
Sorcerer, Bike, Lvl 3, Spell Familiar, Force Staff
Chaos Terminators X 3
Chaos Space Marines X 5, Meltagun, Rhino, Dirge Caster
Chaos Space Marines X 5
Chaos Bikes X 3
Havoc Squad X 5, Meltagun X 2, Rhino, Dirge Caster,

Chaos Spawn X 5, MoN
Chaos Spawn X 5, MoN

Lords of the Black Crusade
Chaos Lord, Bike, Lightning Claw, Powerfist, Mark of Nurgle, Sigil of Corruption

Cyclopia Cabal
Sorcerer, Bike, Lvl 3, Spell Familiar, Force Axe, Sigil of Corruption
Sorcerer, Bike, Lvl 3, Spell Familiar, Force Axe, Sigil of Corruption
Sorcerer, Bike, Lvl 3, Spell Familiar, Force Staff

This list gives you 2 Objective secured Stars (The Chaos Lord and Sorcerer from the Warband are objective secured), a decent amount of bodies, and some spell throwing power.  It again is just two rocks barreling towards smashing you but it gives you options to move around, go get stuff, and being objective secured will mean you are always a threat.  The Sigil of the Sorcerers are there if you throw into Sanctic to try and get Hammer Hand or Sanctuary.  The other Sorcerer will get the ability to have 2 boons thrown on them too so it will be pretty interesting army as you get all kinds of fun abilities and powers from the Boon Chart.  I would advise just printing out a sheet with little tabs you can mark as they gain them.  I would laminate it.


Right now rumors point to a Tzeentch thing coming and maybe a Nurgle item.  I don’t expect Chaos options to be finished anytime soon and while this isn’t the most exciting release it is still a strong one for my favorite army.  Now if I could only have the Orks updated in this way my 40k life would be better.

~Until next time – keep it corrupted.


  • Karru

    In before the insane amounts of “you are just spoiled whiners CSM players, learn to adapt!” comments.

    • Nubu

      The hilarity of those comments is that the same people that repeat them could not manage to do half as good with what we have. 😀

      • Karru

        I mean, I guess we are spoiled technically. We do have the largest amount of bad options to choose from and we actually know what to expect with a new releases! Just think about it, when a new SM release gets rumoured, we don’t know if it’s going to be good, mediocre or bad, is it going to be chapter specific or will it be an entire “faction” release. With CSM we always know it’s going to be either bad or absolute garbage and Khorne. That way we already know if we should even bother getting our wallets out! It’s great being a CSM player!

        • Nubu

          Oh, wow. It all makes sense now.

        • Lee Williams

          No one expects the Khorne inquisition!

      • wibbling

        No, we do far better.

        • Nubu

          With far better codices. That is true. You just could not match our level while using CSM and what we can do with it is very far away from what you claim CSM can do.

          • Karru

            I’m still waiting for people that like to leave comments regarding CSM fans just being whiners that don’t know how to play and just want an I-win-button to complete my challenge. No one has reported back so far sadly.

          • Nubu

            They realized that their success is all about choosing a broken codex. If they came out now they would be just admitting it.

      • Spacefrisian

        No the interwebz state its bad, so its bad….even if you bring proof, cause those 2 battles do not count (huh what, more battles than that divided over many different players…you be liaring….)

        • Nubu

          Ok. So, we have few people with hearsay with no proof backing it up saying that it’s a good book. Every one of these anecdote providers is a gamer in an environment that does not house mostly or exclusively high end tournament goers. This means that the supplement has not bern tested properly by them.

          Literally everyone else with or without experience of it says that it’s useless.

          I personally think it’s useless no matter what level of competitiveness it floats in. It does not produce CSM lists in any reasonable accurate way and this forced warband narrative is both canonically BS and intellectually insulting.
          If they ever get their act together and actually return to the road of fluffy CSM I’ll be happy. Before that though…well, that is the only right way to do a codex for this game. They either succeed or fail. There is no prize for participation.

          • Muninwing

            the idea of the warband is actually very fluffy. the way GW is representing that isn’t.

          • Nubu

            The idea is if you skip 95% of the fluff. The representation is a joke.

          • Lewis Everitt

            Well said.

  • Jaq Draco

    Take cult of destruction, 1 obly 1 obly and 3mutilators all with mark of nurgle,add a Cad with Huron and a Bunker,add a cyclopia cabal with 4 sorcers with Bike.
    Use infiltration trait on obliterators/cultist,then swap/trow the bunker to the enemy with the R5 deathstar made of 3 mutilator (24 CHAINFIST attack immune to S8-9 ID) a warpsmith with meltatendrils and power axe,4 sorcer with ID forse Axes,and huron with his S6 claw and power axe,all buffed from the 4 sorcer psichic power(telepaty/santic discipline/etc..)

    Add a chaos knight with double gatling and tou have 1850 point list

    • Nubu

      Then the s10 invisible melee monster just runs through that in 3 turns. Gg.

    • Malisteen

      the mutilators have to change out their weapons between the two sets of attacks, and cannot use either weapon in the following turn. And they’re S&P.

      • Jaq Draco

        After chainfist u can use power fist

    • euansmith

      I read that as, “Add a chaos knight with double glazing…”

      • Lee Williams

        I read that as “Add a Knight and be like everyone else”

        • Karru

          I don’t mind adding the Knight as long as it’s the only one in the list and it’s PAINTED! I loved to paint mine so much that I started to consider getting another just to paint, but seeing Battle Reports with people playing knights unpainted just makes me cry.

        • euansmith

          GW do seem to have done a bang up job of shifting those kits.

  • Diagoras

    Wow. This is the first article I’ve read that was actually a fair and honest assessment of this supplement, rather than sounding like a weak sales pitch or shaming Chaos players because they generally range from underwhelmed to insulted by it.

    Perhaps it’s because he actually plays our faction, but nevertheless, bravo, Goatboy. Well written. You have won my respect.

    • Lee Williams

      We’re just whelmed, neither over or under.

    • Alan Doyle

      Yeah nice to see the old Goat doing what Dean ‘Blog for the Blood God’ failed to say.

  • Painjunky

    The “best” one, the raptors, is totally out classed (in every way) by the equivalent SM formations eg. skyhammer… As usual.

    Cabal and knights is the only way to go. Just make sure you take as few actual chaos marines as possible.

    • ZeeLobby

      I mean when the best improvement is a CC option, you know nothing has really changed. I mean sure it’s the horrible CC fix GW has tried to add to the game, deep strike charging, but it’s still just an OK option…

    • wibbling

      Not combi melta wielding terminators? Deepstrike, melta the vehicles, shoot the troops?

    • This is also true of the SM SW and DA dexes, the powers in this book/angels of death are too strong to make any marines worth their cost currently, the only lists that really keep up are tau and eldar, everything else is mid tier now

  • Karru

    This book really only gives options for fluff players and even then it really doesn’t do amazing job at it. I already sketched two lists that I’d like to try.

    Iron Warriors Warband:

    Black Crusade Detachment
    (Everything as VotLW)


    Chaos Lord
    – Mark of Nurgle (This is meant to reflect bionic modifications)
    – Power Sword
    – Melta Bombs
    – Sigil of Corruption

    Chaos Sorcerer
    – Mastery level 3
    – Sigil of Corruption
    – Chaos Bike
    – Melta Bombs

    Chaos Space Marines (10 models)
    – 2x Plasma Gun
    – Combi-Plasma
    – Chaos Rhino
    – Dozer Blade

    Chaos Space Marines (10 models)
    – 2x Melta Gun
    – Combi-Melta
    – Chaos Rhino
    – Dozer Blade

    Chosen (9 models)
    – Mark of Nurgle (Same as Lord)
    – 4x Melta Gun
    – Power Fist
    – Chaos Rhino
    – Dozer Blade

    Chaos Bikers (5 models)
    – Power Fist
    – 2x Melta Gun

    Havocs (10 models)
    – 4x Missile Launcher

    Hellforged Warpack


    Maulerfiend (Alpha)



    Total: 1849pts

    The basic idea here is to rush the enemy side with everything. The Havocs will stay behind and provide minor fire support, but mostly act as a backfield objective holder.

    Word Bearers Warband

    Black Crusade Detachment

    The Lost and the Damned

    Dark Apostle
    – Mark of Khorne

    Cultists (20 models)
    – Mark of Tzeentch

    Cultists (20 models)
    – Mark of Nurgle

    Cultists (20 models)
    – Mark of Khorne

    Cultists (20 models)
    – Mark of Slaanesh

    Favoured of Chaos

    Daemon Prince
    – Power Armour
    – Wings

    Possessed (5 models)
    – Mark of Khorne

    Possessed (5 models)
    – Mark of Slaanesh

    Possessed (5 models)
    – Mark of Tzeentch

    Cyclopia Cabal

    Chaos Sorcerer
    – Mastery Level 3
    – Sigil of Corruption
    – Spell Familiar

    Chaos Sorcerer
    – Mastery Level 3
    – Sigil of Corruption
    – Spell Familiar

    Chaos Sorcerer
    – Mastery Level 3
    – Sigil of Corruption
    – Spell Familiar

    This list is the one I’d very much like to try. The idea is to use the Cultists as meat shields for the Sorcerers while they all take Malefic Powers to summon daemons all game. The main reason why I’d like to try out this one is the modelling possibilities. Just painting all the Cultists in thematic colours while kit bashing the Possessed with appropriate Daemons would make this entire army look amazing on the table.

    • Nubu

      I’m a fluff player and this thing offered nothing for me.

      • Skathrex

        Really? I am a fluff player and this thing offered plenty to me!

        • Nubu

          It’s bland, faceless and weak. Everything CSM in the fluff is not.

          • Skathrex

            Its not. It captures a lot of aspects. The wave of Cultists, the Butcherhorde of Khorne, The core Warband etc. All things I consider to be “Fluff” for CSM. The strength is secondary, and to be honest in the greater context ok, when it comes to Fluff armies.

          • Nubu

            It’s something charasteristically “every single CSM warband”. Just like a tactical marine without chapter tactics. It does not represent any of the legions, not even World Eaters for which it has practically it’s own core formation.

            The rules lack the fluffy tune and the structure prevents legion players (almost certainly over 80% of CSM gamers) from playing their legion.

          • Skathrex

            Aha, so you are a “legion only” chaos player. Well let me put it this way. I don’t think you number is even remotly correct, because while there are Chaos players who like to play legions, many of those switched to 30k and many of the 40k Chaos players, are more “Chaos-God” players imo.

            We can discuss this all we want but imo Karru(or someone else) posted on other topics very well, how you can present Legions (if you want) on the tabletop.

            WE: Not a legion anymore, but if you wanted, Melee, Berzerkers, tada

            TS: Cabal + maybe Lost and the Damned + 2 units of TS (not optimal, though not a Legion either)

            DG: Not really sure what their type is to be honest

            EC: see above

            NL: Raptor talon + Warpand+ Helldrakes = HELLO!

            WB: Possesed + Lost and the damned = Awesome

            AL: Probably the hardest, because you can only simbolize the aspect of influencing the popolus with Lost and the damned, but not the infiltration part.

            BL: Äh this is a BL, its like Ultras, the generic (also never was a Legion, started with the remnants of SoH)

            IW: Fist of the Gods, Siege equipment the plenty, yes no Basilisk, but thats just a side note, when you can field so many other things.

            In my opinion what you want is a way to represent a fluffy List that is powerfull on the tabletop. That is something else than just a fluffy list.
            Or you want Veteran Skill/ Chapter tactics and will not be satisfied until we get those.
            But for me, I would be satisfied if I played most of the Legions myself.

          • Nubu

            Not “legion only”. The option is not there. It’s exactly like denying SM players from using any of their chapters.

            Your assessment on how to play legions on 40k is way off. I suggest that you try to get to know the fluff and try again. Also, glaiming that BL is not a legion is like claiming that successor chapters don’t exist.

            Obviously I want a fluffy list that is playable too. At the moment though, if we skip the “playable” part and focus on the fluffiness of the list, that list is not something that is possible to do by the rules. The codex does not allow fluffy CSM nor do the formations.

          • Skathrex

            Maybe you could correct me, instead of just saying its off. What do you like to see apart from legion/chapter rules. Because those are bad if you want to play a Warband.

            BL is not a Legion, never was, never will. Legions where the origingal 9 (traitors). The Black Legion may have Legion in its name, but is the definition of a Warband. Forged and hold together by Abaddon. Yes they origninated from the remains of the Sons of Horus, but today they have parts of all former Legions, Gods and Renegades.

            Again I have no Clue what you want then? You have formations that give you the Style of most of the former Legions imo.
            How good they are? There are certanly some armies that are better, even when played to the Fluff, but you have enough enemies that you can have fun, balance games against.

          • Nubu

            BL is the old SoH. SoH is a legion and changing it’s name does not change it’s definition.

            How are legion specific rules on top of the bland faceless anti theme thing that are the present rules somehow bad for those warbands? You do not have to use them if you want to play the not-CSM.

            What I want is the ability to play flyffy CSM (not possible now) and the ability to go toe to toe with other armies in a balanced game (not possible now).

            For example WB are massed human fanatics followed by equally fanatic CSM, daemons and warmachines, all led by dark apostles. This is not doable now. You can take the apostle but nothing else in that army works like it should. The apostle has exactly zero influence on whether or not the other units start running the second someone looks at them. If they worked like they should they’d have to be zealots to begin with and at least ld10 stubborn if the apostle dies.

          • Skathrex

            Funny, I would suggest you learn you Fluff about the BL and the SoH, and how Fabius made the Clones of the Primarchs and Horus and everything went south, till nowadays the BL has former WE, NL, etc in their ranks.

            Legion specific rules are bad, because you don’t have Legions an they succesor chapters. We more need formations or rules (like we got) that focus on an aspect. Don’t do IW chapter tactics, do something like a Siege Formation or Siege rules.
            But thats mostly a naming thing.

            And the army you mentioned works fine against another Fluffy Tyranid army or other armys. Yeah we could use more, because there is still a power diffrence, but these formations help the fluffy-CSM-Legion style play.
            Because we got better, and I would say enough to compete against at least half the armies in 40k

          • Nubu

            So, are you claiming that 10000 year legion veterans are not fighting like the legions did or better due to experience and instead are reduced to half of what a regular SM scout initiate in a power armor is? Because that’s what it sounds like.

            The legions are there. That’s just a fact in the fluff. To claim otherwise at this point is just a lie. It’s not like you’d not been educated about this by several people already.

            You can focus on an aspect all you want with the formations. You still can’t use them to even simulate the legions through them. It’s just impossible.

            The list I put out was as close as you can get to WB with the present codex and it in no way represents WB.
            It’s morale is weak, which is something religious fanatics willing to walk in to a shredder without hesitation for their god are not.
            You can not ally daemons in a way that represents WB’s relationship with them.
            You can not simulate possessed because possessed do not simulate possessed. We are talking about a fusion of a space marine and a daemon, faster and tougher. We pay the points for them but we do not get the rules for them.
            Pretty much everyone and everything in WB has some kind of pact with a daemon which would make their tanks harder to stop (no representation for this is in the codex), their troops harder to kill and their bullets more lethal (also no way to represent this).
            And the apostle ha literally no way to act his role. It’s a model with no rules that actually would help the army.

            On top of that, that description of a list has no chance of any kind against any other codex save sisters that are actually even more a push over than CSM.

            Aanyway, facts being facts, CSM on the table does not represent CSM in the fluff even when you take the fluff to table conversion rate in to count. These are the force that makes lords of terra soil their strings and on the table the weakest AM rank & file trooper laughs at anything CSM. 😀

            As a personal request, would it be possible for us to keep this discussion in the realm of facts? It’s getting tiresome to constantly correct the things you say and I’m betting you know better than to make mistakes on the rudimentaries of the CSM and the game.

          • Skathrex

            I have no Idea where you see me saying what you mentioned in your 1st paragraph.

            The Legions WERE there, not anymore, not complitly, not as Legions. Yes there may be DG fighting with Mortarion, EC fighting with Fulgrim, but the Problem is there are Legions, that factual don’t exist anymore…WE are dead! End of the line.
            NL are pretty much dead, sometimes they gather but rarly fight a one or train as one. etc

            To the rest of your Post:
            Puh…well you might call it facts, I call it your opinion, nothing you said is a fact, its merely what you see as “Fluffy” and this is a pure subjective thing.
            You want it all. In a 1,5k game you want Cultists, Possesed like Wulfen (which is what I wish for), Daemonengines, Sorc who summon Daemons with Daemons fighting alongside CSM, an Apostel with a greater Range Buff/ more influence on your Units, Zealot for your army and more?
            Thats a lot of stuff, but thats your opinion.
            For me it takes way less to present a WB army. Possessed, Cultists and Sorcs/Apostels are all that is needed, throw in Daemon allies and or Daemon Engines (which you can do with daemonic possession btw) and I would be happy.

            The sisters comment backfires btw. Sisters are old as balls, and didn’t get any updates in a long time, but they are fare from bad.
            They are acutally a mid tier army.

            I will end with this, I don’t know which army you are playing, but I played and won with CSM against low and mid tier armys before the Formations, and it certanly didnt get worse. And know I can play more “Fluffy” (according to my view of it) with more CSM or more “Legion Style” in it.
            If its not enough for you, than I feel sorry for you, because even the 3.5 dex didn’t deliver that much. Meanwhile I will be happy with what we got and have fun with the new fluffy Formations.

          • Nubu

            Well, you claimed that legion specific rules are bad. The only way that can be the situation is that they make CSM act like CSM instead of these insignificant weaklings they are now. This would indicate that you do not see CSM as equals or better than regular scouts from SM but rather a lot worse. This would mean that you have very little knowledge in terms of the fluff. This conclusion is supported by the fact that you claim that legions “were” there even though canonically accurate fluff states that they are there.

            Yes, I want it all, meaning fluffy CSM that can do something on the table. These are 2 things that do not describe the present CSM codex.
            That “a lot” of stuff fits to 1500p now. CSM fits almost 2000 points worth of stuff in to that 1500p.
            Why do you see it as a bad thing that CSM has a legitimate chance to win games?

            To represent a legion you’d need units that fit the fluff. Present iterations of possessed do not fit the description of possessed. Neither do the apostles. The cultists are supposed to be crazed fanatics that are used as a meat shield for this quality and yet they have weaker resolve than regular AM troops. Not in any way representing their fluff either.
            Only KDK has any reasonable way to “ally” with daemons and even that is only with khorne. CSM can not reasonably ally with daemons. No way to represent the fluff there either.
            Daemonic possession makes vehicles worse, not better like it’s supposed to. Again, not representing the fluff.

            Sisters have newer codex than CSM. CSM eats sisters alive and CSM is the worst printed codex available in the game at the moment. Basic logic states that Sisters can not be mid tier if they are worse than the worst low tier codex.

            After you face only proper armies with proper lists we can talk about this again. Your local meta is factually exceptionally low power which makes your experience moot in this discussion. That being said, 3.5 gave us fluffy CSM which is something that we have not seen since.

          • Skathrex

            To your first paragraph: Holy cow! it comes back to reading comprehension or you arguing what you want, despite me never saying what you think I did. Or in short, you missed my point, stop interpreting things in my post that were never there.
            Legion specific rules are just bad if you call it: Iron Warrior tactics etc. because there are a lot of Warbands that don’t fall into any category. They don’t come from one of the former traitor legions, they come from the loyalist side, would you give them chapter tacics?

            I am not against CSM winning, but its not so Black and White for me as it seems for you, thats all.

            And Idea of Fluff reprensentation is obscured, or to litteral. In the Fluff etc. SM and CSM are God-like beeings who can win against a far greater number of Foes. A Marine with a Bolter kills at least 5 Guardsman with ease, without breaking a sweat and hordes of orc, buts thats just because you always read it from their perspective, the protagonist experience.
            And Cultist aren’ Fearless, they are mostly just more afraid of whats behind them, than whats in front. And there are storys of Cultist retreating, beeing cowards etc. (And if you want Fearless Cultists, take a Lord with them, or the Helbrute Formation).

            And pls don’t go to that rabid hole of Allying like imperials. We all know that BBs are bad.

            Sisters is my bad. They are both so old I forgot wich was older. But where do CSM eat Sisters alive? I have heard diffrent storys.
            And btw you can’t compare 1v1 in a Meta.
            What do you mean proper armies. I thought we talked about Fluff armies not Deathstars and the like. I alread admittet that CSM wont beat the top lists, and that there are better fluffy formations out there. You are just repeating yourself, while I don’t even argue your point.
            And why is your experience better than mine. There is no data for comparision of Fluffy armies, because what makes a Fluffy armie isn’t even clear, as we see by our discussion.

          • Nubu

            Are you really assuming that to have legion rules is to be forced to use them? Even if it was, why is it bad to have rules to represent the style of a warband a player wants to play? Why is it good to have a codex that can not produce fluffy CSM?

            Well, you are strictly against CSM having a legitimate chance to win based on your adamant resolve to oppose anything that might make them in any way viable. I would call that having something against CSM winning.

            Go, read the codex description of the cultists and after that let’s get back to that. Now you are simply wrong. You must understand that fanfic means nothing, only what is under the cultist description has any worth.
            The lord is not an apostle and does not make all the units fearles. The fluff of hellcult is directly against the WB fluff so no solution there either.

            Sisters are like slightly worse CSM. Yes, they can win, but not alone, which leads to them being only a hindrance to their allies.

            Mono codex SM tournament lists are fluffy. So are Eldar tournament lists. Same goes for Tau and necrons. They are all built and work like their fluff indicates they should. So yes, we are talking about fluffy lists here. The only new style codex exception to that I can think of is KDK which has exactly no non-daemon units in a tournament list with the possible exception of an axe lord.
            My experience is not better or more valid than yours. Facts are. Facts show us that no actual CSM list has any chance against the new style codices. This has been proven by numerous tournaments.

    • Pyrrhus of Epirus

      if your interested in fluff lists with no chance to win a competative game, the old codex fits those needs already. Is it a fluffy chaos list to have 5 unit types spammed over and over like your second list (cultists, possessed, sorc, DP, Dark Apostle) with no actual chaos space marines in it?

      • Karru

        The fluff side with the WB list comes from the fact that it is meant to represent an attempt to summon a daemon host to consume the planet. This means that the Cultists are followers and sacrifices for the Sorcerers. It might work better as a scenario list where the opponent attempts to stop a ritual for example, with something like every turn there comes more and more Daemons as the veil between the Warp and Real Space grows thinner.

        The reason why it doesn’t contain a single unit of CSM is because there was no way to fit them without losing the Marks for the Cultists and Possessed. If those Marks were free for example, I’d include a CAD with basic CSM. You see, CSM formations are nothing compared to SM when it comes to options and flexibility. The formations that CSM have include expensive “tax” units while not giving anything for free or cheaper. This limits lists hard since I wanted to make all units that could take it without gimping themselves (Sorcerers) have Marks. This was because I wanted to make it look like they were different segments within the Warband. Sorcerers are meant to summon their Patron God Daemons which is why I’m sticking them into the Cultists. The reason why I didn’t give them a Mark is obvious, it gimps them hard since they lose Psychic Focus and have to take a useless power.

      • Units spammed over and over is almost always going to happen in a fluffy list, because most fluffy armies are of a fairly uniform tactical disposition

      • Skathrex

        Didn’t you look at the list? Its not about the same Units, its a fluffy list for all 4 Gods:
        1.Cultists, the masses, the underlings praying to the gods
        2. Possessed: The blessed avatars of the Gods
        3. The Sorcerers: The Henchmen of the Gods, the ones to call them, their priests.

        That is a really good fluffy-WB List.

        And the 1. List can totally win, depending on how “competetiv” or “fluffy” your opponent is. Is he bringing Jetbikes, Wraithknight and D-Scythes? then no. Is he bringing a horde of boys with his Waagh than he can win.

        • Pyrrhus of Epirus

          guess you didnt read what i even wrote, because when i type the words “possessed” out like i did in my reply, im referring to possessed.

          multiple units of possessed, cultists and sorcs are the basis of one of his lists. if CSM list dosnt have actual chaos space marines in it, i have no interest. You dont see many SM list with no actual space marines in it.

          If you want to be happy with this second rate update and continue to not be effective in a competitive setting, you got you wish. Me ill keep my chaos on the shelf for another couple years, who knows i might still be playing than.

          • Skathrex

            Your right, we seem to have a diffrent definition.
            Sorry if its not Fluffy for you.

            I see Possessed as CSM for example (basically everything with a 3+save is a CSM for me.

            I understand that for some people Fluffy means Legions, and only that, but I find his List increadibly Fluffy, because of what I wrote above. Its not even good, Marks on all the Units, that mostly don’t do anything. A story Idea behind it etc.

            Obviously I would have liked more, like a new Codex, but I am pretty satisfied with what we got.

    • Alan Doyle

      Fluff players like their Chaos Marines to be usable.

  • Malisteen

    None of the formations are amazing like the cabal, but most are at least alrightish. Formations that could be good if the core rules for the units included ever get updated.

    The two exceptions of terrible formations are the terminator annihilation force (shoot one extra time per game! but their only guns worth fielding are combi weapons which turn into pumpkins after the first shot anyway), and the heldrake formation (kickass bonus to vector strikes! but only if the opponent fails a moral test or gets pinned on their own turn somehow).

    These formations are especially frustrating because deep striking terminators and heldrakes both have critical flaws that make them both not very good and extremely unfun to play (lack of scatter mitigation and the painful interaction of a narrow line of sight with the current torrent rules respectively), obvious issues that these foramtions could have tackled, and yet both problems remain just as crippling as ever.

    • Karru

      Most problems with CSM formations come from the things GW overlooks HARD when it comes the book. Raptor formation would be good, but we don’t have any reliable way to land them where we want them. This leads to the necessity of relying on small units, which won’t do any good thanks to the lack of attacks.

      The Heldrake Vector Strike bonus is mostly useless, since the chances of units falling back is very small and it is impossible to pin enemy units before the Vector happens, as far as I know.

      The Favoured of Chaos would be fun to use with Crimson Slaughter but they can’t field it thanks to the VotLW.

      Fist of the Gods 6+ Invulnerable save feels like “useless” since it is not hard to obscure the vehicle and gain a cover save. I would prefer the SM Ignore Shaken/Stunned result much more.

      Maelstrom of Gore “Red Rain” feels like it won’t see much use since from personal experience a unit of ‘zerkers eat the unit they come into contact with and rarely get stuck. If they do get stuck, it’s against a unit they are not able hurt and thanks to fearless, can’t run away from.

      The Cult of Destruction suffers from the lack of choice when choosing targets. Only Long Range AT they have is Lascannon, mid-range AT is the Multi-melta. If you choose a vehicle as your target, you better be within 24″ to shoot that Melta as well. Against Infantry they have more options, but even then these guys have to be close to the front if you want to use them to full effect. This makes it insanely easy to pick off the Warpsmith since he has to remain within 8″ to use the ability.

      Also, considering that this entire book was meant to be based around Black Legion AND Crimson Slaughter, the fact that the “big point” of taking the Detachment is to get VotLW for free doesn’t really help CS at all.

      • Don’t have a reliable way to land them? Cursed earth man, if you take an appropriate number of sorcerers you should definitely get it. But we do need our old icons back.

        • Karru

          But why would I take such a huge risk and waste my Psychic Powers for that since it’s mostly useless after they have landed? I can easily take more cost effective units like Obliterators that can provide around the same amount of damage and use those Warp Charges and Psychic Powers for things like Summoning.

          • Obliterators also benefit greatly from cursed earth, it’s a fantastic power. On princes it is down right mean, since they get the benefit too

  • Wayne Molina

    I think the biggest problem with this is that all it does is push the wrong in my opinion of course style of playing CSM that everyone already use. It does nothing to encourage actually playing a fluffy Army and everything to encourage the same non fluffy no narrative netlist Approach.

    • Karru

      The big reason why it doesn’t push the fluffy route is that it doesn’t help it at all. For example the AoD book gives insanely fun benefits if you play Raven Guard. Scouts helping units Deep Strike, flank the enemy and spot for your other units screams of Raven Guard. Salamanders get to make their Flamers better and Iron Hands get better FNP.

      What does CSM get? Nothing. It doesn’t matter if my army is painted in the colours of Iron Warriors or Death Guard, I still only have one detachment that only gives me VotLW. I can pick the specific units that would suit the army of my choice or take Marks, but overall my rules are the exact same as the guy who didn’t take those upgrades.

    • Its usually a choice of “fluffy” vs “effective”.

      Most people want “effective”.

      • Wayne Molina

        Sadly true

      • Karru

        What is “fluffy” is falls more to the opinion category. For me, these formations aren’t exactly fluff friendly for most Legions. Even for Black Legion these formations aren’t that good fluff-wise. What would be fluffy formations for me you might ask? Well something like this.

        Maelstrom Raiders (Core Formation)
        Chaos Lord (can be Huron Blackheart)

        2-5 units of CSM

        1 Unit of Terminators/Chosen

        1-3 Units of Chaos Bikers/Raptors

        All units in this, excluding the Lord and the Terminators/Chosen, formation have the Scout Special Rule. In addition, Chaos Bikers can charge on the turn they arrive via Outflank. Raptors scatter only D6 on the turn they arrive from Deep Strike Reserve and can Shoot and Run on the following Shooting Phase.

        Loyal Bodyguards
        If the Lord in this formation is removed as a casualty, the Chosen/Terminators immediately gain Rage, Furious Charge and Fearless Special Rules.

        As you can see, this formation mostly represents Red Corsairs, but generic CSM that have turned into Raiders can use this one as well. It contains a minimum of 4 units that you have to take and gives you some flexibility with the additional units. I personally believe that every CSM formation doesn’t need a negative side effect, so I didn’t give it one. Instead, this allows you to use bikes for more than just wounds for the Burning Brand Lord or just as Melta Carriers. For Raptors, their benefit would allow them to drop close to their intended target, shoot it and then spread around a bit before a large blast marker just wipes the entire unit. It also allows for more flexible Flamer placement.

        Fluff-wise this formation makes sense. Red Corsairs are known for their devious tactics, cunning outflanking and brutal assaults, at least in space. As for the Loyal Bodyguard, this helps with idea that those units are meant as more of a Bodyguard unit for the Lord which he has chosen personally for the role. This would mean that they are fiercely loyal to their Lord and will bring destruction to those that harm their Leader.

        Basically I’d like to see formations that are fluff friendly, cater to both Legions AND Renegades. They don’t include stupid oversights like some of the CSM formations do and don’t just give things like double Fearless or Hatred (Imperium). They give things that make the army feel like the army it is supposed to be, like Raven Guard in AoD book.

        • Death Company Andro

          Funny thing is Chaos SM don’t really do the “loyal” thing. They tend to be more interested in back stabbing each other for personal gain.

          • Karru

            That depends highly on the individuals. For example, Hurons bodyguards dragged their Lords mostly destroyed body back. There is a very specific reason why the Bodyguards are chosen very carefully by the Lords.

  • dave long island

    Thought provoking: I mean, what would Skittles mixed with M&Ms taste like?

    • SicSemperTyrannis

      It would taste like CHAOS!

      • Xodis

        It does, it DOES taste like Chaos!

        • dave long island

          Lol 🙂 IDK how I haven’t tried that yet. On the flip side I now have this on my ‘to do’ list to get done this week. lol…

        • euansmith

          Werther’s Original taste like Law.

      • dave long island

        Lol, yes, yes it would!

  • Stealthbadger

    So anyway when are imperial guard getting an update? I mean we have no viable melee, massed lasgun is not effective, tanks now get sacked in melee or shot in the back no cover saves, scions are over costed, our formations have too much tax.

    Angry rambling about GW etc etc etc

    • euansmith

      I think you need to join the queue 😉

    • Karru

      Well, from my experience only the lack of melee and overpriced formations are correct. I run a mass Infantry army with Grenade Launchers and Heavy Weapon Squads with Lascannons and I’m doing fine. I only use 2 Leman Russes, Punisher and Eradicator. Again, this is my experience with Guard, but I’m not against a new book.

      • Stealthbadger

        But if you’re not winning tournaments or on par with space marines it’s garbage right? 😉

        • Karru

          That seems to be the case, yes.

    • Andrew Thomas

      Who needs Melee when you have Super Heavies, Artillery, and more guns than an NRA convention in Galveston?

      • Stealthbadger

        Ha, but seriously though.

        1. I want to play the game without relying on a baneblade
        2. By turn two if you’ve avoided melee in most cases you are doing well.

        • Karru

          You must have a rough crowd then if you need a Baneblade to win games. My Guard army of mostly Infantry and 4-5 Vehicles (2 Leman Russes, Bane Wolf and 1-2 Chimeras) is doing just fine.

          • Stealthbadger

            My crowd are good really. I just can’t get the firepower output. BS 3 really hurts when you also pay full price for the guns. By turn two something has made cc and then it’s usually downhill. Plus I didn’t know a saving throw until I started space marines 🙂 Would be good to see what you do, for example why doesn’t your opponent end the bane wolf the turn it got into range. Hitting rear armour in CC and on 3 is a death sentence for vehicles. I find the orks and tyrannids swarm me, the Marine outshoot me, and the tau. Oh the tau.

            Now don’t take this as a rant, I love the guard, I love playing them and don’t care about losing. My original post was really a little jibe at chaos that maybe they don’t gave it quite SO bad. 🙂

            Oh and To be honest I’ve never used the bane blade but as an ork player the mega nobz would have fun chewing on it.

          • Karru

            My crowd usually runs Space Marines, Chaos Space Marines, Eldar, Blood Angels, Tyranids and Necrons. Sometimes I see Orks, but only one play those and he has multiple armies.

            My usual Guard List is roughly something like this:

            Company Command Squad with Carapace, Vox, Medic and a Banner. They sometimes have Chimera with Dozer Blade with them. I give the Commander the Inspiring thingy on any doubles Relic.

            Infantry Platoon with 3x Infantry Squads with Grenade Launchers and Missile Launchers, all units also have Vox.

            2x Heavy Weapons Squad with Lascannons

            Platoon Command Squad has 2x Sniper Rifles, Medic and Vox

            A Veteran Squad with Carapace, 2x Melta and 1 Plasma Gun. Sergeant has a Power Sword sometimes. They are in a Chimera that has Dozer Blade.

            For Fast Attack, I usually run 3x Armoured Sentinels, if I’m not taking the Bane Wolf, I run each as a squadron of 1. They are equipped with Autocannos.

            For Heavy Support I use Leman Russ Punisher and Eradicator, both with Heavy Bolter Sponsons.

            For Fortifications I use the Aegis Defensive Line and the Quad-gun.

            Since I “just” started this army around a year ago, meaning I only have everything listed painted, I usually run either a single Knight with this list or a small SM ally with a Stalker, Tellion and 5-10 Sniper Scouts.

            The basic idea is to set the Aegis in one end of your Deployment Zone and stick your Platoon and Company Command Squad there. If I roll around with a Knight, I stick him near them as well. Then I set up everything else on the other end of my Deployment Zone. I also combine my Infantry Squads to one 20 Squad and one 10 man Squad. This means that my opponent has to choose between my Company Command/Platoon or my heavy stuff/flankers. Those Lascannons with the help of the orders usually manage to take down rushing transports or artillery vehicles. Then my Leman Russes take down any “threats” to my gun line. If there is a rushing melee units/force coming my way, they usually get gunned down by my Punisher and Eradicator. My Veterans go full speed on the other flank to get around the enemy while my Sentinels are just a pain in the butt. Thanks to that “insane” front armour, my opponent has to either deal with them with some of his more heavier AT or just allow them to disrupt his units and cause damage to light vehicles.

            If I run my Bane Wolf, he goes with my Veterans full speed until a ripe target presents itself. Again, taking out “heavy” AT and splitting my army out really helps with this manoeuvre since by the time I get to the opponents side, there are no real melee threats to my Bane Wolf. Those are either dead or slowly foot slogging towards my gun line. Finally, if I’m running the Knight this is much easier. I just stick him very close to the main gun line and that usually does the trick. My opponent is either too scared to come close or if he does, my Knight melts them with the Rapid Battle Cannon + Charge in most cases. Only exception here was Kharn who my Knight decided to miss with every. single. attack. and saw Kharn ripping my Knights arms and play the “Stop Hitting Yourself” game with them.

            That’s about it what I do. This may or may not work with your gaming group. With mine it does wonders and I have yet to lose a game! Hope this helps! 😀

          • Stealthbadger

            Thank you for taking the time to set all this out. Your list is simile to the one my has evolved too but I’m still trying to use the Ogryns and Bullgryns as a melee shield. They actually perform way better than expected due to toughness 5 but obvious fall horribly to proper melee units like termies or mega nobz.

            The knight explains a lot. I can see how it can die a lot of the heavy lifting that a leman russ can struggle with. My battle tank couldn’t hit the floor if I knocked it off the table.

            Also I use dual wyverns. They are just amazing really. Basilisk a are too long minimum range to be of much use. I’m going to try dual punishers, one with pask next time.

            Aegis is a good suggestion but I was thinking of a bastion to provide elevation. It’s interesting the bane wolf gets ignored my hell hound is normally a priority target.

          • Karru

            I place my Bane Wolf usually “behind” the Chimera. Basically if there is an AT unit that can take it down, I keep my Chimera in front of it since I’m going full speed anyway. When it is finally time to let it loose, it can usually take at least one unit with it before it can be taken down. Cover Saves are extremely important with Guard, but so is flooding the board with targets. The average list I face usually doesn’t include mass AT, they instead focus on more specialised AT like the Sternguard Melta Drop or Obliterators. This is where the Veterans are nice to have since my opponent now has to choose between shooting the Chimera and the Veterans and deny me 2 Ob. Sec. units heading towards his side of the board in order to get his objective and/or Linebreaker or shoot my Bane Wolf and risk wasting the shot thanks to 4+ Cover Save from the Chimera.

            I don’t really need to worry about elevation since we have nice hills to use that do that for us. But the basic idea for me has always been to flood the board with targets that are “hard to kill”. Guardsmen with a 2+ Cover Save standing behind the Aegis since I usually just Go to Ground when they get shot with something big/damaging since I can get them up with “Get Back Into the Fight!” Order. The Armour of the Sentinels also offer this same problem for my enemies since you just can’t bolter it to death like usual, you have to use “good” weapons to take it down or it will bother your weaker transports or disrupt your infantry units. Spreading things around helps greatly since with so many threats to face, my opponent has a hard time choosing which flank to focus on.

            That is actually one of the biggest reason why I enjoy playing Guard so much. It isn’t your typical “pick pie plate, place pie plate, roll dice, remove enemy” army if you don’t want to and you can still be effective. I have things to do, manoeuvring around the board, using Orders and shooting the heck out of my opponents.

            Also, something very major about the Aegis placement. Don’t place it on the edge of your Deployment Zone. This is where two of my friends fail greatly. Place it around 5″-7″ from it to make sure that even the fastest assault units have to endure one more turn of shooting before they are able to charge you successfully. Those Lasguns become very deadly once you are rolling 2 digits worth of dice and the first digit is more than 3.

          • Stealthbadger

            Thanks again.

            I’m a bit unclear how you hide the bane wolf from a drop pod using only 1 chimera, surely your opponent could just drop anywhere it doesn’t block LOS?

            I agree with your points, please don’t take my tone as argumentative by the way, just idle musings, good to speak to other guar players.

            I found blob o’ guard to be ok, but there’s a lot of ignores cover out there now. For example three whirlwinds are going to make a blob of guard behind the aegis very very sad.

            I actually struggle with the footprint at times too. You need a suprising amount of space to deploy a guard army. It’s why when i see the advice of ‘just castle up’ I smile because I can spot someone who’s never played guard. Your way sounds more of a compromise that may help with that, 30 guard rather than the full 50.

            The one weakness I see in your list us that if you don’t use a knight you have fairly squishy anti armour. Heavy weapon teams are fairly easily instakilled. Although you do have a lot of redundancy with the missile launchers I guess but BS3 man. If only we could have marker lights eh?

          • Karru

            I’m not taking this as an argument at all. I like to make certain things a bit more clear, same thing I would do if my opponent wants to know how my army works exactly or how they should counter different aspects from it. Also, fellow Guard players are somewhat rare these days.

            If my opponent uses a Drop Pod Melta Sternguard squad to kill my Bane Wolf on the other side of the board, I call that worth. The Aegis covers surprisingly much and I usually “layer” my Guardsmen in a way that they can easily fit behind it. Then again, I do field “only” 40 models in that “corner of the table” if I count the Command Squads. I’d like to get 2 units of 20, but I haven’t got around painting them yet. I’m very strict about that when it comes to my models, otherwise I wouldn’t get anything painted. About your comment regarding my AT, yes that is true and I’ve been trying to get something else painted. Most likely more Heavy Weapon Teams since I love them. Until then, I usually use my Knight as the big AT guy.

            Regarding that BS3, it isn’t that bad thanks to the Orders and the double inspiration thingy. Also those Sentinels do quite a bit of damage on their own as well, since most of the time I don’t face “heavy” armour like Land Raiders or other Leman Russes. I also forgot to point out I use the Cadian Warlord Traits since I find them to be a lot better compared to the regular ones.

            I also tend to find that people either right out ignore my Heavy Weapon Teams since “it’s only maximum of 6 Lascannons at BS3” or they cannot reach them since they are at the extreme back since the range is nice. I’m still planning on replacing the Knight with either 2 Battle Tanks or 1 Leman Russ and more Infantry and Heavy Weapon Squads. Those Missile Launchers are also quite nice to have since it gives quite a bit against horde armies. Those units shoot 2 blasts each which can cause damage and if everything else fails or is out of range, I can shoot the Krak Missile at a random vehicle. They are also “remnants” from the days of old when Heavy Weapons were technically just two guys with the Heavy Weapon and not necessarily on the Large Base and it happens to be the only Heavy Weapon that doesn’t need heavy converting to make look “good” for the basic Squad. 😛

          • Stealthbadger

            Too true on guard players, don’t get it myself. I mean who else could see the leman Russ and NOT want to play guard right!? Best model in 40k right there.

            I’m going to give your list a go, I’ll amend it slightly for what I have, I still think the wyvern is a no brainer and hell hound just appeals to me over bane wolf though ap3 is tempting.

            Being honest the bs3 work around is to bring in a primaris with presience. Not the most reliable power but twin linked bs3 lascannons are worth the risk.

            I’m warming to sentinels, they were a bit lackluster the first two times but that’s more down to the dice gods than anything. Auto cannons are nice but might try a lascannon in there.

            If you did drop the the knight I think the executioner or the exterminator variants would be worth looking at. The vanquisher may be a bit redundant in your list.

          • Knight_of_Infinite_Resignation

            try some cheap fortifications, sjch as barricades, to give ypurself cover amd razor wire to slow down assaulters. Take a blob of 50 grunts with a charactwr to make them fearless as a speedbump. Look imto the artilery formations.

        • Andrew Thomas

          Gorgons & Dominus, but I see your point. And if I’m throwing out enough AP 4 or better in the first 2 turns, I can get there.

          • Stealthbadger

            Ah well there is my problem, I’ve not invested in forge world stuff beyond the vendetta yet.

          • Andrew Thomas

            Nothing like a War-Rig full of Bullgryns and Krieg.

    • Knight_of_Infinite_Resignation

      you are in the queue behind Dark Eldar and Orks. Don’t worry, eventually you’ll get to the front and you can be short changed just like CSM.

      • Stealthbadger

        To be fair I’ve at least seen dark Eldar winking tournaments in solo builds. I’ve yet to see even a bat rep where guard win.

        • Knight_of_Infinite_Resignation

          they have beaten me sometimes, but then I play CSM…

  • nurglitch

    Chaos Land Raiders can take a Dozer Blade. This not only means that they can re-roll dangerous terrain tests, but that they count their front armour as 15 when working out rams. They’ll impact at S9 when they ram. If that wrecks an enemy transport via removing its last hull point, then the unit inside will disembark and take a pinning test. If that unit is within 12″ of two or more members of a Heldrake Terror pack, then it’ll take that pinning check on a penalty. Then the Heldrakes can do their Vector Strike with the Merciless Pursuit bonus on them. The Land Raider will be firing Snap Shots, but that’s why those Lascannons and such are twin-linked.

    • Haighus

      The ramming rules are something I find very lackluster in 7th. Whilst the way the strength of the attack is determined is good, the fact that a Land Raider ramming an Ork trukk at full speed is not capable of wrecking it unless it has already taken damage is both odd and annoying. Same goes for any light vehicle hit by a significantly heavier vehicle.

      • nurglitch

        Cool. I’m just pointing out when it’s possible for a unit to be pinned. They could likewise have their vehicle exploded by a vector strike from a previous Heldrake moving over it, for example. Unlikely, but possible.

        • Andrew Thomas

          And possible is really where the discussion should be when it comes to low-tier armies.

    • Nubu

      How does this make drakes viable on the turn they arrive?

  • JP

    This entire article has the tone of a used car salesman trying to paint the Ford Pinto in a good light.
    “Sure it catches fire when it gets even slightly bumped, but that just means you’ll always be warm in the winter. And in the summer, INSTANT barbecue! Break out the wieners and burgers, it’s party time! (PLEASE buy this car or I’m getting fired!)”

  • Koszka

    Hmmmmm. how would you guys read this when discussing Crimson slaughter possessed and the possessed formation:

    “If you wish, you can say that any Chaos Space Marines
    Detachment or Formation is also a Crimson Slaughter
    Detachment or Formation”

    So wouldn’t you be able to take a formation of all 3++, rending, shrouded beasts then?

    • Mike Holmberg

      No the updated crimson slaughter rules state you cannot take any models with VOTL so you cannot take the deamon price required with the formation. Which makes me very sad.

      • Koszka

        I feel like they need to clarify how VofLW works when it comes to Daemon princes. I mean if crimson slaughter couldn’t field a prince, why does it specifically state that a daemon prince can’t purchase a daemon heart in the relic section? I think this in part to GW being lazy and not looking over their own rules.

        • Karru

          It’s called “massive oversight”, which GW very good at when it comes to their CSM releases. They usually forget their own rules fast.

      • Peter Lundgreen Hansen

        Where does it State the DP must have VOTLW

        • Massawyrm

          The codex. It’s a standard, off the rack rule. The Crimson Slaughter are a new renegade chapter and haven’t had any of their members ascend, thus they are DP free.

    • Nubu

      Even if you played with the previous iteration of the supplement (which still allowed CS DP) you would not benefit at all. The bonus that formatin gives works only in combat phase.

    • Karru

      Like those before me said, unfortunately thanks to GW oversight, once again, Crimson Slaughter is not allowed to field the formation as their “own”.

  • Muninwing

    i think that GW just has no idea what to actually do with them. they have no defining trait or flavor. so it’s more like a bowl full of unseasoned popcorn…

    • Andrew Thomas

      It’s entirely because the devs aren’t allowed to read the fiction, I think.

      • Nubu

        Just picking up 3.5 and reading the legion rules in there would be enough.

        • Karru

          And Mutations, don’t forget the Mutations that allowed our Commanders/Aspiring Champions to be different from SM Sergeants.

          • Nubu

            That too. Surely.

      • Muninwing

        i’d put money on “don’t care to” over “aren’t allowed to”

        chaos may be one of the defining ideas of the game, and a force that adds immensely to the themes and setting, but it’s tricky to grasp as a concept. a halfhearted attempt by a talented writer who just doesn’t know what to do with them (or a series of them) is going to be terrible no matter what.

        add in the SM supremacy, and we have another issue — that half the CSM players are annoyed at how poorly CSM do in comparison because SM get all sorts of new toys…. and that the other half would be perfectly fine with that if CSM had different areas in which to shine.

        • Karru

          The big problem is that all GW would need to do is go read the 3.5 codex, realise why it was so popular at the time and finally understand that an army that lacks almost everything that makes it Chaos isn’t exactly the fan favourite to play.

          For example, the mutations. Yes, we do have the Chaos Boon Table, but some people don’t realise that it doesn’t make sense from fluff point of view. If my Chaos Warband is supposed to have waged war for possibly thousands of years, shouldn’t their commanders and squad leaders already have mutations? Instead, these mutations manifest themselves during fighting for some reason. Do they remove them after every single battle?

          That was one of the biggest things I enjoyed about 3.5. I could take Mutations for my Squad Leaders and model them appropriately. It also gave them that unique flavour that made them different from just normal SM. In their current form, they are way worse Veteran Sergeants since they lack ATSKNF and Chapter Tactics. You also HAVE to include them in every squad.

          • Muninwing

            on one hand, you’re right

            on another, this sounds suspiciously like the Diablo 2 -> Diablo 3 issue.

            the company wanted to create something new, not just rehash the old.

            the backlash from those who just wanted an update rather than a new book/game was huge.

            the difference is actually that in the case of Chaos, they just didn’t have a coherent plan as to what direction they actually wanted to take from there. had the right person fronted CSM 6-7 years ago, we’d have difference without being terrible. but since we don’t have it for comparison, we don’t know how we’d evaluate it.

            sadly, they should have reviewed and moved on the 13th Black Crusade earlier, and used that as a map for the future of Chaos and CSM.

          • Karru

            The Diablo comparison is quite apt here. The only problem here is that GW doesn’t realise that they are basically killing the army. They are not “making something different and new” they are outright removing everything that made CSM Chaos. I made a very big list of stuff we lost/gained when we hopped from 3.5 to 4th and then from 4th to 6th. If you haven’t seen it, spoiler warning, it’s very depressing.

            In their current form, GW seems to view them as nothing more than worse Space Marines. The basic idea with them thus far seems to be that they are Space Marines, but they have negative effects to reflect their “Chaos” side. They also think that adding RNG Mutation table is also extremely Chaos. They also believe that CSM is only supposed to fight Imperial forces and nothing more since their only “unique” special rule benefits them against Imperials.

            I don’t mind them trying something new, but they really have to view the thing from multiple angles. GW believes that CSM should be Space Marines with RNG Mutations, negative effects and only fight Imperium. Also, there should be nothing that can be used to reflect Legions or different Warbands in the army. For example, the Eldar can field Biel-tan and Saim-hann without a problem. Same with Ulthwe and Alaitoc. Space Marines are self-explanatory and Tau can do different armies ranging from the standard to the Farsight army.

            Only thing CSM has to reflect “differences” is the Cult Marines. If we take a Lord with a Mark we can get Cult Marines as Troops. That’s it.

            If we go back to the Diablo comparison for a sec, what they did with Chaos was that they wanted to make something new, this is correct. But instead of making Diablo 3 they made it a Strategy Game like Starcraft but with less content and factions. Basically completely different, killed the series and just didn’t realise that this isn’t what the original game was like at all.

          • Muninwing

            you are forgetting context.

            the 4th ed Chaos book came out a little after the DA one. they pioneered “simplifications” (like what many people believe 7th needs now) to squads and options, and wanted Chaos to have slightly different options (woohoo! they get free ccw!) and some other rounding-out.

            they also, for some good and some bad and some confusing reasons, decided right then to increase random numbers in the game, which has continued since.

            they also got rid of “customizable units” — the Tyranids were hit harder than Chaos for that. but the sheer cheez you could invoke with the Chaos Lord potato head was probably at least part of the reason they needed to pare back.

            and finally, it was the 4th codex that reframed chaos. it’s backed up by the fluff that there are no more legions, that they shattered after the HH. That they were unwieldy and did not survive competing personalities after the Primarchs became more interested in Daemon matters (or dead ones). The idea of the Warband has been around for a lot longer than the 4th ed codex, but was only placed into existence there.

            there’s a weird transition, and it seems some of it was due to multiple changes in vision. the word on the street after the 4th ed book removed daemon flavors was that they would just get access to them in an add-on book about “daemon worlds” that changed into the Daemon Codex and was a completely separate product (and later, the WHF mortal-daemon-beast books that featured your general’s foot troops as core and the other two as special was similarly shifted from the mix-and-match style).

            i think it was about then that whoever was best at guiding exactly what chaos was got a bit… distracted. and everything since has just been building on their distracted vision.

            it could be good. the inclusion of daemon engines was an interesting idea. warptalons were a badly-implemented great idea. there’s still some good ideas. but the underlying structure of the book is wrong.

            Diablo 3 became a lot more playable once they added “adventure mode” and did some other fun things. it’s replayable similar to what D2 realistically still is. none of the early reasons that people complained (cartoony palate, loss of the semi-rpg-style character building, etc) are still issues. it is itself, and it’s pretty good. but Chaos has not found its balance yet (a ironic statement), and has been trying for a decade. it’s frustrating.

            but pining for the 3.5 is actually half the problem. just like how many people wouldn’t give D3 a chance because t wasn’t just D2 Chapter 6, some things had to change. holding on to the old codex is useful now, and the reality vs-history not comparable any more.

          • Karru

            The problem then comes with the releases ever since. During 5th edition, we saw the increase in HQ units that gave people options to take different non-troop units as troops. This continued till the release of 6th edition. Once again, GW switches things around and starts with CSM and Dark Angels. Both armies suffered from this greatly and had to endure quite a bit of pain. Then GW switched things around once again with the supplements. Eldar got the Iyanden book and Tau got the Farsight Enclave. Chaos got theirs as well with Black Legion and Crimson Slaughter, but they seemed extremely mixed with their intentions. They made Chosen Troops for BL and Possessed for Crimson Slaughter, but then decided to give both factions a downside. BL had to have VotLW for all its units that were capable of taking it and CS couldn’t take VotLW on anything outside Cult Marines and made Possessed fast/survivable but not able to deal as much damage in CC.

            Neither Iyanden or Farsight Enclave suffered from something similar. There was no real downside on taking either, outside of slight restrictions that hardly mattered. Then came the 7th and the entire system was once again changed. Instead of Supplements, outside of the Ghazgkhull book for the Orks and the DE one, they changed to “single” big formation deals or alternative Force Orgs.

            Then came Necrons that changed the entire meta and future of 40k. “Decurion” after “Decurion” we saw the same thing repeat with Eldar, Tau and SM. Core formation(s) with flexible options but not too many and multiple minor formations. These “Decurions” came often came with amazing benefits that made use of the armies play style. Eldar got their movement speed boost, Tau got better fire power. SM got the best deal, but it still followed this routine. Then came the IG supplement and re-released Ghazgkhull book and once again threw a wrench into the gears. They made Core formations HUGE and non-flexible with those two armies. Yet, they still got nice benefits from taking it that used the armies own mechanics well and boosted it.

            After that we got the KDK book, but it still suffered from certain problems. Biggest being the overpriced CSM squad. There was literally no reason to take them over Bloodletters since they costed way more and were less effective. We did get a usable formation and “decurion”, but even then most of the CSM favouring ones were overpriced or too big to use in normal games.

            Then we got the CSM Supplement re-release and once again we faced more BS. Instead of giving us a “decurion” like they did with Orks when they got theirs or even the KDK book, we were given overpriced formations where we got useless rules for some as the bonus, like the double Fearless. The only good thing we did get was the Cabal. As if out of spite and throwing the middle finger at CSM players, SM players got their AoD book with 6 “decurions”, 5 sets of Relics, 7 sets of Warlord Traits and 4 new Psychic Disciplines. Also included were all the formations that had been released before from the Campaign book(s) and the Skyhammer Annihilation Force. All of these were released on the same day.

            Then we get this one and now the BA are getting their release. What is the result this time? CSM once again gets mostly shafted while BA gets two “decurions”, new set of Relics and Warlord Traits. On top of that, they are getting a mini update to bring them in line with SM. All this happens and then we have people saying that “CSM players are nothing more than spoiled brats that should learn to adapt.”

            The main issue with CSM will always be the lack of everything that actually would make them interesting. The “flavour” of CSM book comes from their negative side effects and rules. This is what GW seems to think Chaos is and wants. They attempt to build CSM around the Boon table which doesn’t make sense when viewed trough the fluff. I’d say it is rare for Gods to give their “Champions” mutations during battle. There is also no way to give the specific ones before hand and most of the results in it are useless. CSM doesn’t have anything going for them that makes their basic CSM units interesting or attractive. With Eldar their Guardians have the Platforms and Battle Focus. SM Tacticals are extremely flexible thanks to good number of upgrades, Chapter Tactics and Combat Squads and are impossible to break thanks to ATSKNF. Tau Fire Warriors and Breakers are unique with their weapons and the synergy they have with things like Marker Lights. Ork Boys have options to go full melee, either small mechanized unit inside a Trukk, larger unit inside a Battle Wagon or a large horde shambling towards the enemy. They also have the option to go with lots of Dakka and shoot the enemy to bits with insane amounts of shots and are they are cheap to boot.

            Guardsmen have Orders and Combined Squads, Tyranids have ways to spawn more and can give them biomorphs to modify the unit to achieve certain tasks and Necrons have Warriors and Immortals that are relatively cheap and can come back from the dead. What does basic CSM have compared to that? Nothing. Absolutely nothing. No special rule that makes them special or suit specific role. Taking Marks or Icons for them is insane since Cult Troops have better effects for almost the same price. Why take Havocs since Obliterators do the same thing better and are better in the living department? Basic CSM units aren’t cheap, don’t have anything special about them and are generally a bad unit. You cannot upgrade them to be better either most of the time since Cult Troops do the same thing, but better. Most of the time you are better off with Cultists since at least they are cheap.

            That’s one of the biggest problems with CSM right now. They are more generic than SM are and in this game that is not good.

    • Skathrex

      I think CSM are too “fluffy” Atm CSM are, when it comes to the number of rules on a similar lvl as Orks, DE, Necs etc.
      Basically you have good (Imperium) vs bad (the others), and each of the others has a bit of fluff to it.
      But CSM have SOO MUCH FLUFF, that you could easily make a CSM codex with chapter tactics + 4 God Dexes + Daemons + Renegades + Dark Mechanicum.
      In short, everything the loyalists have (or nearly everything) you could do for Chaos too.
      But Chaos is just one of the Baddies, thus its torn between its many directions of fluff and GW doesn’t know in which way to go.

      • Karru

        I really don’t see that being the problem. GW is very clear on their intentions when it comes to “what CSM is”. To them it is nothing more than a ragtag Warband that has gathered around a specific Lord that leads them to battle. This is how they represent them in the book. It would be extremely easy and simple to make the Warband system work, but that would require thought on the matter on GW part as well as some effort, so it’s not going to happen.

        • Skathrex

          Well, yes…no…maybe. I see what you mean, I too think thats the direction GW is heading, but somehow they half-ass it, and the question is why?
          Is it really just lazyness? It feels like they didn’t want CSM to be Legions, because that would be too much “Evil SM” but they didn’t know where to take it from there and the Warband idea is a kinda blank.
          They could do awesome things with it, kinda like old Vampires from Fantasy (if your HQ dies, moral is failing), or just go with big buffs from HQ, or link Force organistation directly to the HQ choices (more than now).
          Right now it feels more like the Warband thing was a good Idea for a CAD, because that what SM did too, but now with Formations it kinda misses direction. Daemonkin was a great idea, but again only half-way executed

  • Andrew Thomas

    I’ve done better.

  • Korvalus

    While not a competitive player (Vade Retro!), I think that you’ve got something wrong. The formations from this book can be used by BL and CS as well; as those books have that they can use all the formations avaliable for CSM. So yes, you can have your Crimson Slaughter’s Favoured of Chaos.

    • Nubu

      You could if CS coukd use DPs.

    • yoash barak

      You can’t, but not because the formation does not allow, but because the rules are incompatible and it just won’t do anything.

      See, CS possessed completely replace thier random ability rule from one that triggers at the beggining of a fight subphase to one that triggers at the beggining of the movement phase, but the FoC formation directly alters what happens in the start of the fight subphase, so it will have no effect at all on CS possessed.

    • Karru

      It seems that quite a few have a problem with this. CS cannot take VotLW with ANY of their units. This includes the Daemon Prince. Then there is the formation itself that doesn’t help CS Possessed at all since it only activates during the Fight Sub-phase.

  • Chosen of Khorne

    Does anyone truly believe that our “decurion” type benefits even come close to comparing to the others out there?

    Hatred that only applies to some enemies. Useless against xenos. How does this help against the hard hitters out there (tau, eldar, daemons)? What other army’s decurion benefit is situational? Why not hatred (everyone)?

    VotLW – hatred marines (which we get from the first part already), +1 Ld on models that are already overpriced without ATSKNF, stubborn, or fearless. We will still enjoy falling back off the table and getting swept in Assault. And the free points gained will be less than 50 in a normal list. This is way less than other books.

    Free boons of chaos to 1 model per turn? Random roll with potentially negative results? Unpredictable at best. Turn you to a spawn at worst.

    I would say I am pretty disappointed.

    • Nubu

      Apparently. Many have defended the detachment. None have succeeded. Most have changed their opinions for the worse after actually playing with it.

    • SprinkKnoT

      Unless you’re taking double Demi-Company, the Dark Angel one only gives you BS 4 overwatch which is worthless against most armies. (double Demi-Company is far from the average Dark Angel list)

      Farsight Enclave lets you re-roll wounds/armor pen against 1 target per turn, chosen before you know what your opponent is doing the turn before you. Considering most Tau weaponry is S6 or higher, not particularly powerful when you’re re-rolling 2+s. (Don’t take this as FE being bad, obviously they’re good, but not because of this bonus).

      IG get to make already reliable commands more reliable, and get to reroll 1s to hit for lasgun (And remember this is in a decurion with much more restrictive cores, one of which doesn’t even care about these bonuses).

      Yeah, the Chaos one isn’t the worst, it’s about average. The Necron one is absurd and the Eldar and SM ones are pretty good. The rest are only good because of the formations in them, not the decurion bonuses.

    • Morgan Peck

      The Ork one is pretty bad, too. Hammer of Wrath at S3 if you roll a 10″ charge, and every turn Waaagghhh (run and charge). The worst is that the Core formation does these same two things but worse, as well. And the IG one is bad because it requires a minimum of 195 infantry.

      • Karru

        The problem with the Guard formations doesn’t come from the number of models, it’s the price and lack of upgrades. 1000+pts for bare boned Guardsmen with nothing but Lasguns isn’t exactly my idea of “optimal”.

  • Mike Salamandrin

    To anybody that owns the ebook Chaos codex; do they still update the ebook to match rules changes?

  • Peter Lundgreen Hansen

    I Fail to see Why the possesed can’t be crimson slaughter…
    You don’t have to take VOTLW

    • Morgan Peck

      The Daemon Prince, however, does.

    • Karru

      Again, for around third or fourth time I see this type of comment. Crimson Slaughter is NEVER allowed to have VotLW outside Cult Marines. This includes the Prince since he has it. Not only that, the CS Possessed don’t benefit from the formation since it only activates during the Fight Sub-phase and lasts until end of the turn.

  • Dexter Kingsford

    I love the cult of destruction. I mean it should only contain obliterators but shooting twice is amazing, even if it isn’t the same weapon, There’s enough similar weapons to make that work with minimal effort. TL melta and Multi melta, frag middiles and plasma cannon, las cannon and krak missile, TL flamer and heavy flamer, etc.

  • Marco Marantz

    Can someone be kind enough to tell me how much the LoS was adjusted to? The author mentions the Trinity is cheaper? Ive written to GW that at 888 points a LoS can be destroyed by units a fraction of its price 100% of the time without it inflicting any losses in return.