Traitors Hate: Fist of The Gods Review


Today we tear apart the Chaos Marine Fist of the Gods formation and see if does the Ruinous Powers proud.

Howdy Heretics! Dean from Blog for The Blood God here with another installment of my weekly review / Tactical article series for the formations found in the new Traitors Hate Chaos Space Marine Suppliment!

If you have any ideas / tactics you wish to contribute / discuss head over to my Facebook Page and shoot me a message! Without further adue lets get into the second installment!





  • 1 Warpsmith
  • 3-5 units in any combination from below:
  • Land Raider
  • Predator Squadron
  • Vindicator Squadron

YES YOU READ THAT CORRECTLY, chaos space marines now have vehicle squadrons




This formation grants the following special rules:

Dark Wards – all vehicles in the formation that are within 12″ of the Warpsmith gain a 6+ invulnerable save

Unholy blessings – the warpsmith gets a +1 to his roll when repairing vehicles in this formation

The new Chaos Squadrons also add the following special rules:

Linebreaker Bombardment – if all 3 vindecators are able to fire they can combine thier shots into one apocalyptic cover ignoring disk of death!

Killshot – if the unit contains 3 predators they all gain tank and monster Hunter, so +1 strength to all weapons when firing at vehicles and re-roll to wound against monsterous creatures



First lets discuss the units, what to take and how to equip them. Being vehicles there are not a great deal of options, particularly on the Land Raider and the Vindicator. On a Vindicator I ALWAYS take Daemonic Possesion, being able to ignore those shaken and stunned results is huge.

The main unit that has loadout options is the Predator. It’s a versatile unit so take a look at your force and see what is missing. Use the Predator to plug the gaps. My personal favorite is Autocannon turret and Lascannon sponsons, a unit of 3 predators armed this way can reliably dish out enough Hull points to wreck most non super-heavy vehicles and will drop almost all Monsterous creatures in 1 round of shooting.


So is this formation good? Yup!

I think this formation was intended as an add-on to a Black Crusade detachment, that being said it can be taken independently or allied with another detachment from another faction! The possibilities are endless, some standouts for me are:

– Combining this formation with the Maelstrom of Gore. This gives the Berzerkers access to Land Raiders which significantly increases their potential to make it to combat. Use the Berzerker’s Rhinos as blockers to give cover to the Land Raiders and also support with dirge casters etc

– Adding some armoured firepower and transports to a Chaos Daemons army. This definitely plugs a major hole in most Chaos Daemons Armies and also lets you make almost Daemonkin armies for the other 3 gods. Get your Daemonettes in a Land Raider and all of a sudden they are not being eaten by bolter fire before making it to combat! Just remember the new FAQ forbids deploying inside allied transport vehicles. You can still jump in turn 1 tho 🙂

– Speaking of Daemonkin this formation is also a great way to add some ranged firepower to a Khorne Daemonkin army. While the units killed by this formation will not generate blood tithe it still helps solve the issue of no ranged support. You can always use Predators to soften enemy units then charge them with your Daemonkin scoring you blood tithe points 🙂

And finally, the option of taking it as a stand alone formation, or even taking multiple Fists of the Gods! Picture an army that is entirely comprised of Predators and Vindicators, put them side by side to create a wall of AV13 Firepower! Iron Warriors eat your heart out!  The downside to taking it as a stand alone formation is you have a Warpsmith on his own making him an easy target which will remove the formation bonus when he is killed.



This formation, as with all formations has some glaring weaknesses. If taken in squadrons vehicles are very vulnerable to combat. I have seen a single Bloodthirster destroy 3 Leman Russ tanks in a single charge so many times. You also potentially lose some firepower due to over-killing your target, since all vehicles in a squad must target the same unit.

I like to think of this formation as an answer to your list’s existing weakness.


~So what are your thoughts on this formation? Have I missed any fantastic uses? How would you equip them an what tactics would you use? Chuck some comments below or join the conversation on Facebook. Lets show the false emperor’s lackies what the power of chaos can do!

  • CMAngelos

    But.. it can’t be good.. cus chaos sux!!1

    • petrow84

      It’s good, just that SM gets even better in their formations.

      CSM vehicle squadrons in the formation:
      – 6++
      – Repair +1

      SM vehicle squadrons in the formation:
      – Ignore crew shaken/stunned (aka free daemonic possession)
      – Repair +1

      That’s not a huge gap, until you consider the LR formations.

      CSM LR vehicles in the formation:
      – warpsmith tax,
      – 6++
      SM LR formation:
      – immunity against everything in the damage chart save Exploded
      – wound/AP re-roll against super heavies.

      • Nubu

        Yeah. It’s awful.

      • Thomas Gardiner

        Still better than the Dark Angels equivalent, mind.

        – Unit of 3 Preds/Whirlwinds/Vindicators
        – Land Raider

        Techmarine has to stay in the LR to give it +1BS, whole formation counts as one unit (but grants 2 VP if destroyed) and it gains Monster and Tank Hunter.

        Several hundred points for a bunch of tanks that have to bunch up close, can only fire at one target per turn, waste transport space with a Techmarine and are full of guns that have wildly different roles and ranges.

        Just godawful.

        • ZeeLobby

          Yeah. I mean every book has its bad options. This is just an example of one of the best new things CSM got, and it’s still pretty horrible. At least DA have other viable options.

          • Thomas Gardiner

            Very true. Our Ravenwing (except the flyers) and Demi-Company formations are all amazing so they more than make up for the weak tank one and “meh” Deathwing one.

            Dark Angels Battle Company is brutal.

          • ZeeLobby

            Yeah man. The DA update saw them get a significant boost. The BA one only looks OK so far (an army I play). I really wish they were just consistent.

          • Runefyre

            Unfortunately SW’s and BA’s got cheated out of obsec. So the new BA battle company is actually worse than the one in the current ‘dex.

            like wtf

        • petrow84

          Well, most of our codex is awesome, especially the RW formations, so I’ll let that one pass.

      • Tesq

        no i prefer inv save 6+, and pay for extra armor lol, that’s a lot better. Land raider explosion only gona happen vs eldar. An army after the nerf of wave serpent you should have not problem with as csm

        • petrow84

          Does your extra armor protect against Immo and Weapon Destroyed result too? 🙂

    • eehaze

      Putting overpriced and ill-conceived units into formations with trivial bonuses is fitting for GW’s most hated faction.

    • Zingbaby

      Unless this book is full of Win-button kiddy-handicap lists – the CSM crowd will cry for another few years.

      • Wayne Molina

        Incorrect, and quite frankly very rude and disrespectful to Chaos players.

  • Pascalnz

    omg…. the rule for tank hunter is re roll to pen not +1 strength…. good gracious!!!

    • ZeeLobby

      It’s crazy. It’s like they havent even played the game in years.

      • Skathrex

        You never make mistakes? Dean plays a lot of games. Just look at his blog. But as a KDK player he isn’t used to tank hunter 🙂

        • ZeeLobby

          On the table? All the time. In an online forum discussing tactics? I’d REALLY try not to. I mean you have all the time in the world to fact check what you wrote. Maybe if it wasn’t a common issue with BoLS it’d be less noticeable (not that it’s a common issue with Dean).

  • Nubu

    Marines have a huge advantage with these. 6++ is useless, ignoring stuff that prevents shooting is great. Warpsmith tax is a huge waste of points. There is nothing good in it. Regular GW quality with the familiar taste of “CSM is just like SM, just half as good for the points”.

    • Runefyre

      Warpsmiths are loads of fun to play with. I have good luck with them.

      I just wish he could take little daemon-automata servitors.

      • Nubu

        Good for you. Theoretical hull point back every other turn is moot in a game that is full of sD and grav spiced with massed S10 melee attacks.

        • Runefyre

          Cursing enemy vehicles is good fun as well.

          Not to mention the current model is one of the (few) good looking csm minis we’ve got.

          • Nubu

            How do you curse a deathstar?

          • Runefyre

            ummm….you don’t?

            You can only curse vehicles with the warpsmith’s master of mechanisms rule.

          • Nubu

            Aye. Vehicles are not a problem in this game.

          • euansmith

            Would it not work on a Knight Titan, or do they not count as vehicles?

          • Nubu

            Those are not problems either. Invisible deathstars are one though.

          • Runefyre



  • Painjunky

    If the clearly superior SM version did not exist this might seem useable, for some. Yay.

  • The rout

    so entertained by chaos whining lately. I play space wolves and most of your formations are as good if not better than our alternative. No they aren’t as good as vanilla marines but then no marine codex is. Just suck it up already. Wolves don’t whine this way and we have many overcosted units and no grav either. Stop comparing yourselves to vanilla marines and youll be much happier. Let vanilla be OP, they need it to compensate for being all kinds of dull!

    • Thomas Gardiner

      You mean you play Codex: OP Thunderwolves.

      • The rout

        Thunderwolves are great dont get me wrong but the points tag is extreme. 85 points fully equipped (TH SS or PF and Claw) is really not that great value wise. You can have almost 4 bikes for that. 45 points base is still 2 bikes. I make no defence for how OP wulfen are though but then id argue that this is reflected in the fluff.

        • Matt Ward once said the fantasy daemon codex was supposed to be broken and OP because they were daemons and in the fluff they should be OP too.

          That didn’t work out well 😉 lol

          • The rout

            Oh come on! this is a friendly site, please dont liken me to Matt Ward :p

          • euansmith

            I think this might clearly point to Matt Ward not understanding the concept of balancing points 😀

        • Runefyre

          Yeah but wulfen are extremely vulnerable to shooting attacks, I always struggle to get mine into cc these days.

          • The Rout

            Land raiders and the council (or heralds) of the great wolf could help. Lets you steal the initiative on 4+ then if you do the land raider shuffle (turning from side on to straight forward) move 6″, disembark 6″ run D6 and charge 2D6 youve got a good shot of hitting the front line immediately.

            If im footslogging I also front mine with storm shields and maybe a TWC artificer wolf lord to take small arms fire. Only Look out sir good AP weapons and late him take the 2+ saves. He doesnt stop the unit charging even if they run since the FAQ. some stormys on the back doesnt hurt either.

          • Koonitz

            If you do the “land raider shuffle” (which was done better by the Necron Ghost Ark), you are legitimately cheating. It is because of this very thing that GW added the caveat that no part of a vehicle may end its move more than X” from where it started (where X is the distance based on the speed you are going, combat/cruising/flat out).

            While most people tend to gloss over this fact (it makes driving up and turning 180 degrees to disembark from a rear ramp essentially impossible), it was specifically designed to stop exploits like what you just mentioned.

            As such, doing a shuffle, like that, so that you can get more than 6″ into no-man’s-land and still disembark should be called out as cheating and I recommend you cease doing so before someone does call you out on it.

          • The Rout

            I genuinely was not aware of that. Does seem odd though for things with a rear ramp, as you say it makes them essentially useless. I’ll check the wording in the rule book when i get home though, cheating isnt winning after all and i like to win 🙂 Even without the shuffle the odds of the charge are still ok though, need 12″ using 3 dice, 2 of which can be re-rolled.

          • Koonitz

            I’d double check the rulebook FAQ draft. Might be where I saw the clarification.

      • Runefyre

        The op thunderwolf builds really only work with superfriends added in though.

        And I’m not a fan of that sort of gaming. not fluffy at all.

        • The Rout

          Exactly. And just to be clear i restrict myself to one codex, no super friends for me just all furry fury 🙂

    • ZeeLobby

      Id hardly think having the most varied and viable options as being dull… You can definitely take the vanilla dex and make a thematic and fluffy army. As an added bonus you’ll win games with it as well.

      And SW are still high middle tier. Thunder wolves are still very viable. Cheap droppod melta. Etc. Still way better than CSMs.

      • The rout

        Oh i didnt mean dull list building wise. How could all the best toys be dull? I mean they have very little “character” in comparison to CSM and wolves and all the other none Ultramarine clones. I will grant you that wolves are upper mid though but then arent CSM? And if not then they are at least mid tier. They are in a much better position than guard, nids, Grey Knights, Dark Eldar and most certainly orks. Youd think CSM was absolute bottom but it most certainly is not.

        • Admiral Raptor

          The only thing that keeps CSM out of the very bottom is Dark Eldar. Imperial Guard are much better, as are Grey knights.

          Mid tier is the impossible dream of chaos players everywhere.

        • ZeeLobby

          As Admiral said, they’re maybe high-low, or low-mid. The only armies I’d say are worse, or maybe equal, would be Orks, DE, old BA (new might not be that much better, but it’s too early to tell), and maybe Tyranids, outside of flyrant spam.

    • Martin Hesketh

      I once got The Rout achievement on Mario Party 10.

      • Martin Hesketh

        Are you a Bowser fan?

        • The Rout

          pure luck and you know it!

    • Commissar Molotov

      Says the guy who gets FREE drop pods that all come down on turn one.

      (Hint: Chaos doesn’t even get drop pods, bub.)

      • The Rout

        no you just get dreadclaws which are better. More pricey points wise but actually useful after dropping off. They dont have a model ill grant you but i let my mate use a converted drop pod same as any reasonable person would. and i hardly think a few free 35 point drop pods is game breaking. This is all moot though. CSM are not the worst off codex or the most neglected but they have by far the most vocal detractors. They can compete against any army, yeah theyll likely lose against 2/3 of them but they can at least compete with psyker spam. Poor orks cant do anything, cant shoot with that BS and cant fight with that initiative but somehow they can stop themselves from complaining all day long. Must have some special rule CSM players dont???

        • Commissar Molotov

          “They can compete against any army, yeah theyll likely lose against 2/3 of them”

          …I don’t think we’re using the word “compete” in the same way.

          • The Rout

            Compete means to take part in a competition. Not to win, not to lose but to take part. CSM have options available (albeit extremely cheesy ones) to have a fighiting chance like spamming psykers supported by 2+ jink Demon Princes. Orks get to shoot (and miss) or rush to a combat where they’re mostly dead before attacking. Ork players are by far the worse off but they just take it because they love their army. CSM players complain so much it makes me wander why they dont just play vanilla since they want everything they have so much.

          • Commissar Molotov

            By that metric, an infant can “compete” with a heavyweight boxer.

          • euansmith

            “In the red corner, at 6′ 6” in his stockinged feet, Anthony Joshua. And in the blue corner, Alana “Honey Boo Boo” Thompson!”

          • Commissar Molotov

            “Throw in the blankie! Throw in the blankie!”

          • euansmith

            Ork players are secure in the knowledge that, “Da Orkz iz da BESTEST! WAAAAAGH!!!” I think that makes up for a lot of shot comings in a Codex. 😉

        • Pyrrhus of Epirus

          you think free droppods (and by extension rhinos and razorbacks since we are talking the gladius formation) is not a massive advantage, i have a bridge to sell you.

          • The drop pods are only free if you take 6 squads of tacticals, a chaplain, and a bunch of other crap that is easy to blow off the table, the Gladius is ok, but compared to what you can do by just taking psykers from the librarius conclave and knights, it’s dead weight. The Gladius’ strength is massed mediocre units that have ob sec, if you’re tabled turn 2 it doesn’t mean much. Gladius only works in environments that ban the powers from angels of death now

          • Pyrrhus of Epirus

            you have any examples of winning lists playing conclaves and knights? Id love to check them out. Or do you have any examples of a single army that can table a gladius on turn 2. Sounds like were playing two different games, my scat bike/spider/wraithknight eldar list dosnt have a chance in hell of tabelling a gladius in two turns, even if my opponent was poor.

          • Pyrrhus of Epirus


          • Pyrrhus of Epirus

            Clearly you have no evidence to support this claim or you would have posted it by now as requested, i do see you have made a dozen comments since i asked for some winning conclave/knight lists, or examples of factions than can table a gladius in two turns. Its ok to have strong opinions, but some facts mixed in would be good also

          • Cabal/Knights/Purge took 4th overall at nova, and more importantly the #2 for battle points was a list with 2 imperial knights, a few heralds of the great wolf and a conclave. You can make a nearly identical list with CSM now that we have worldwrithe, earthly anathema, and Soulswitch.

          • The Rout

            sigh* no you are right, unless you get everything everyone else gets you have no chance in any game ever.

            You absolutely need to take lackluster units and get 35 points(ish) free a few times to stand a chance, how stupid of me to think otherwise.

            We’ll just forget that psyker spam is where the real power is and that CSM are probably the best Marines at it because?

          • Pyrrhus of Epirus

            your very naive if you think up until now the librarius conclave has been subservient to chaos psykers. The conclave is one of the three best formations in the entire game, making space marine psyker’s a dominant force on the tabletop. Sorry the actual reality of the situation escapes you.

        • Nubu

          2 pretty important points:

          1) The dreadclaw costs about double it’s worth.

          2) CSM is not the most neglected codex. That is true. It’s getting plenty of attention. It’s not the worst either. It’s just second worst even if you take every update in to count. The cabal is good, sorcerers were always that and the cabal enhances their potential. Everything else in that codex however is just as bad or worse than the units in the worst codex. The worst codex would be Sisters.

          Anyway, you could try to look at the role of an army. CSM is supposedto be one of the worst enemies of the imperium competing for the first prize with nids. Orcs are a funny and ever entertaining sideshow, though not harmless or insignificant. Orcs fill their place in the setting, CSM does not.

          When the “good guys” of the setting can just roflstomp the bad guys there is no suspense. Reversing the power levels would be just as bad. The problem is not that the CSM are worthless. The problem is that there is no way to forge a narrative beyond “CSM lost, gg”.

          • The Rout

            I take your points for the most part. Not sure i agree with them being second worst but that might just be from personal experience and the fact that i rarely play as low as 1875 points. I usually play around 5 – 10k points so codex power levels are quite different in my mini meta. I do agree that CSM should be scarier but id say that’s more of a problem with the good guys being OP than CSM being too weak.

            My problem with the amount of hate CSM get from their fans is that its always in comparison to vanilla marines. The vanilla dex is far better than my wolves but i dont care because i dont compare the 2. The only codex or supplement i compare to is my own previous codex or supplement so im rarely disappointed.

            I really hope that CSM are fixed when the codex update comes around but i suspect this hatred will continue no matter what 8th brings unfortunately.

          • Nubu

            Well, the way you look at things, which is perfectly reasonable, is bound to give those results.

        • Knight_of_Infinite_Resignation

          dreadclaws are 100 poimts and eat randommodels so no usimg them for dreads or characters.

      • georgelabour

        Well, that also means that emo space marines get all the drops pods available in the codex with no need for a formation.

        For free!

        Silver linings!

        Those poor space wolves on the other hand have to take blood claws, and grey hunters en masse. That leaves very little room for dreadnoughts, thunderwolves , and warlord titans.


        • The Rout

          I dont have any titans 😛 i do have 35 wulfen, 12 TWC and 3 dreads though…. Wish id id never mentioned i play wolves now. Just made my army the one CSM compare their dex to.

          I dont get cheap chaff units in cultists, i dont get obliterators (their formation is nice i think) i dont get abaddon or demon princes. I dont get to just increase my initiative to go before marines and buy FNP too. I dont get army wide re rolls in CC for free. You know why i dont get that? Because i dont play CSM and i think comparing my codex like for like with another codex is pointless.

          Traitors hate is an improvement on what you had, no it isnt as good as others but it is still an improvement or would you guys rather it didnt exist?

    • Shawn

      VAnilla Marines aren’t dull, unless you play UM. Since I play Iron Hands, they are not dull! LOL.

  • Badtucker

    main issue with this is the 3 + units, so to take full advantage of say the vindicator bonus thing your going to need to pay for at least 5 tanks…. thats alot of points

    • euansmith

      I think that GW’s take on this is, “That’s a lot of models and money,”

  • An_Enemy

    As a DE player, I look forward to clicking Chaos articles. Watching people complain about getting releases with a frequency second only to Space Marines never gets old.

    Chaos marine players are like the Goldilocks of 40k. They’ve always got porridge on the table, but it’s never “just right” so obviously they have it the worst. As opposed to the people starving to death in the streets.

    • Nubu

      Well, if the porridge is seasoned with urine like in this case I’d like to think that anyone in similar situation would be smart enough to not eat and vocal enough to question the ethics of the chef.

      We all know DE sucks but honestly being ignored like DE is better than being repeatedly nerfed like CSM. Besides, DE is still better than CSM. Not by much but still.

    • ZeeLobby

      Goldilocks if she was force fed rotting sewage you mean?

    • Agreed, I quit playing loyalists when 7th came out and exclusively play a mix of daemons/csm/daemonkin depending on my mood. Having a mediocre codex for a few years is nothing compared to what DE and Necron players have had to deal with in the past. I find the whining hilarious, I find the cheap prices of tryhards offloading their armies even funnier.

      • Nubu

        CSM has been bad since 3.5 was left behind. DE have sucked, what, 2 years. Necrons were fine in 5th and are better now.

        Maybe it’s just my education but the way I was told to understand time was that 10 years is longer time than 2 years or a period of time that never started.

        • You realize necrons had a codex before the 5th ed one, right? As in, 1 codex. They got their codex in 2002, they didn’t get a new one till 2011. Dark Eldar’s model line was essentially abandoned before the redesign, 7 years between releases. CSM has had a codex, 2 editions of supplements, two forge world books, a ton of data slates, and hey a new expansion that updates the codex to 7th. Complaining about feeling neglected is silly.
          It’s not a balanced game, the competitive scene is bonkers broken and the system just isn’t designed for that. There’s plenty fantastic things that can be done with the CSM codex. Playing in tourneys you take psykers and renegade knights. It’s boring and the game ends t2 most of the time either way, but that’s how some players insist on playing.
          Oh and DE sucked in 5th 6th and 7th, they still suck, still fun to play.

          • Nubu

            Yes. CSM sucked before 3.5. So what? Even eldar have not been the best every edition. It’s meaningless to look at power levels of past editions when the problem is not related to them.

            It should be more balanced than it is. It’s likely not supposed to be auto win for some factions and auto lose for others. Yet it is just that. Old codices can not win against the new (excluding Daemons).

            DE are still better than CSM. If DE suck, what does CSM do? Sisters are worse than CSM, what do they do in this comparison?

          • An_Enemy

            Yes. The T3 5+ save race that depends on fast transports that aren’t any faster than armies that have better stats and rules is better than CSMs…how exactly?

            I do believe chaos has actually won a tournament in the last decade. More than DE can say.

          • Nubu

            The psychic powers are good, some of them at least. Good or bad they are just as good as loyalists.

  • yergerjo

    Don’t forget, with the new psyker powers the opportunity to finally get PotMS on the Predators makes them even better.

    Mind you my Iron Hands only need a character nearby… :-p

  • euansmith

    “– Combining this formation with the Maelstrom of Gore. This gives the Berzerkers access to Land Raiders which significantly increases their potential to make it to combat. Use the Berzerker’s Rhinos as blockers to give cover to the Land Raiders and also support with dirge casters etc”

    Berzerker, “Okay, Rhino Daemon, you’ve got us to the battlefield, we’ll bail out not in to that Landraider.”

    Rhino Daemon, “But, what am I going to do?”

    Berzerker, “Well, you can just drive along in front of us with your dirge casters going until someone blows you up and then we roll over your mangled wreckage in the Landraider.”

    Rhino Daemon, “Thanks guys… thanks for nothing! Whether or not I survive this, you lot are walking home.”

    • petrow84

      “You know what, I just careen off to reserve again, and let that point-equivalent knight formation stomp on your ungrateful pansy red a**es! Bastards!”

    • Andrew Thomas

      Or you could just, IDK, leave the Rhinos home?

  • Inco Gnito

    To be honest , in my humble opinion , one of the biggest problems that CSM have is that they are generally seen more in unison as SM, even when setting them up as undivided .
    Look at how many books , formations and special rules there are for SM in order to allow SM players to play as closely to their chapter as possible .
    – Ultramarines
    – Ravenguard
    – White Scars
    – Black Templars
    – Iron Hands
    – Imperial Fists
    – Crimson Fists
    All with a numerous layout of formations , special wargear , chapter relics , special rules. Yet as GW clearly wants to encourage each SM players individual freedom to create their own chapter , these formations and specials can sometimes be intermingeled to a point of sheer brokenness .
    Then you have own space marine books
    – Blood Angels
    – Dark Angels
    – Space Wolves
    – Grey Knights
    – Deathwatch

    That is a huge selection right there and given the pure quantity of ensueing rules and formations it becomes statistically obvious that some of them are bound to be over the top good .

    Compare that to CSM
    – Book CSM
    Well that is very little given the fact that roughly half the legions betrayed the Imperium and joined chaos . As such the selection is going to be fluking minimal. Or again game breakingly harsh like Eldar or Tau .

    The other option would be
    – DKK
    – DKT
    Still … that is only four books, four set of formations and most certainly not as mixeable as the mingled orgy of formations that the SM are allowed to wield .
    Seriously , CSM need to be on par with the variety that is granted to SM , otherwise this ain’t going to work .
    And this is coming from a SM player

    • petrow84

      Yes, it really wouldn’t be too much work to supply CSM with a legion-equivalent of the chapter tactics, and probably, creating a 9th one for the renegades.
      Hell, even by copy-pasting the rules you could give legions some flavour:

      Black Templar – World Eaters (psychic-hater CC-maniacs)
      Ravenguard – Night Lords (masters of terror warfare, plus H&R tactics)
      Imperial Fists – Iron Warriors (masters of siege and counter-defence)
      Ultramarines – Black Legion (tactical flexibility through diversity)
      Iron Hands – Death Guard (resilient combatant)

      • Andrew Thomas

        I’ve done this. It took maybe a day to get 10 distinct Legion traits that felt suitably fluffy.

        • Nubu

          Yes, but you do not hate CSM. Imagine how hard it is to figure things out when you genuinely want to fail at the task.

          • Andrew Thomas

            And therein lies the problem.

  • Runefyre

    Personally I think that these new formations are an excellent example of the power level WH40k should have.

    Every other faction needs to be brought down/updated to this level.

    • Orodruin

      Agreed, but too late.

    • Nubu

      Dude, be careful. You present sound reasoning. That’s borderline illegal.

  • Shawn

    Good article and thanks. I don’t play Chaos, but it was still informative, and gives me an idea of what to look out for my Iron Hands. On the predator squadron tactic you mention, Dean, I’ll be trying that with my Iron Hands! I want to see how well that works.

  • Nubu

    Balance is half of the game. Unless the opponent is somehow mentally challenged CSM can’t win against fluffy SM. You can swap “CSM” with any of the low tier codices and the statement holds true.

    • Complete nonsense, if that was actually the case 30k never would’ve taken off because GW has always been godawful at balancing the game. It’s not important.

      • Nubu

        30k is pretty balanced compared to 40k. It’s actually less about your chosen faction and more about skill, which is directly opposite of 40k.

        It’s important to people who want to have fun games without predetermined winners…which is almost everyone who plays games.

        • And it’s written by completely different people, 40K is popular because it’s a narrative game, I’m sorry but balance takes back seat in 40k all the time and that’s what you should expect, if that’s not what you want then you never were getting that from GW so it’s perplexing that you’d expect that from them. The rest of us don’t get emotionally invested in whether our army is top tier (and of course the top tier is utterly unfun to play currently, unless you like your games to end T2-3 every game)

          • Nubu

            Yes. People who know what they are doing and care about the experience their pruducts provide.

            Narrative without a plot or suspense is, well, useless.

            I don’t think that there is any significant distinction between you and I in terms of emotional investment. I want an experience of struggle, hard fought victories and narrow losses. You want amnesty for 40k from any critical thinking. We both get annoyed when we do not get what we want.
            The irony is that if GW did their job we would both get what we want.

            The top tier has fun between themselves because, you know, relatively good balance between them.

          • Amnesty for GW? No, I want people who don’t enjoy the game to play other games that they enjoy, and all I expect of 40K is all it’s ever been, a complete mess of rules intended to be played between players with a social contract. Hell, part of the reason I love CSM is the challenge, there’s always wild swings in what is good.
            And no, I roomed with several of the top battle points players at NOVA, I can tell you honestly their games almost all ended in 30-40 minutes with one side or the other tabled, mostly decided by who got 1st turn. That’s not fun, it’s just boring

          • Nubu

            So, “love it or gtfo”? I thought that the rules were intended to be used as the players see fit. Was I wrong?

            Challenge =/= impossible mission.

            You are right, it’s boring to have a predetermined winner by a single roll. Why would predetermined winner by codex choise be less boring?

          • Because your claims of the badness of CSM are ridiculously exaggerated. The game isn’t auto lose against normal lists, they’re going to lose more than eldar certainly, but especially considering all the awesome kit in IA 13 they have plenty of tools to compete. What missions are you playing? NOVA’s system offers a very tactical format that balances quite well between factions.
            And no, not love it or GTFO, my point is that you seem to want something from 40K that has never existed. It’s like complaining that X-Wing is pre-painted. Yeah, it’s a thing, and 40K is unbalanced. It has always been, if i cared the slightest bit about balance I’d never have started 40K. People who don’t like the X-Wing models shouldn’t play X-Wing, it’s setting them up for disappointment.

          • Nubu

            Exaggerated how exactly. Besides the cabal, what in CSM non-FW arsenal can challenge the eldar or marine cheese? FW is still “requires permission” sector as long as GW does not announce that it’s fine. Other than the Kytan what in FW is even available in the formations?

            Apparently you think I am demanding perfect balance. In reality the game is fine if I can agree on points and have a match without any restrictions for lists or factions and still have fun. That is not possible at the moment in most matchups. The new codices tend to have that chance. The old ones do not.

          • Everything in the game is “requires permission,” you don’t have to play with any of the rules if you don’t want, but everything published by FW is as official as any supplement. If someone choose not to play your FW choose not to play with whatever units you find are breaking the game. You can take dreadclaws as dedicated transports, and storm eagles, hell blades, hell talons, and blight drones using the death from the skies detachment, currently everything else requires a CAD. But since TH has been out a week, anyone playing before that still has access to all the tasty FW goodies.
            I dunno what to tell you, except maybe change up your missions, but I’ve had one problem winning games with CSM in 7th, they’re tougher to play but auto lose? What missions are you using?

          • Nubu

            Nope. I don’t have to separately ask a permission to use my codex units or GW made codex supplements. My opponent can choose to not play either way but only FW requires a separater permission.

            I suggest that you play the game against tournament lists to get the gist. Try it. You might learn something.

          • No, there’s no such thing as “separate permission,” the only permission is whether you play the game, FW rules are official supplements, as FW has said numerous ways (and placed an official stamp in every sodding book)
            “Our units are official Warhammer 40,000 units. If someone does not wish to play against our units, as they may not wish to play against a Codex:Tau Empire Army for example, that is their decision.”
            And I do play against tournament lists, one of my regular opponents was in the top 5 for battle points at nova. He brings his dumb, unfluffy, poorly thought out storyless armies and I get to work on my tactics, but fundamentally the game isn’t designed to be min-maxed and scales like crap to that power level. As I’ve said more than a few times, that’s not what 40k is designed for, so complaining that it doesn’t do that kind of gaming well is stupid. I indulge people in competitive play because they’re my friends, but even they admit the competitive scene is a mess and the game has completely gone off the rails since angels of death.

          • Nubu

            We all know what FW has written about their products but that’s exactly the same as if I’d write a codex and added a disclaimer that said it’s official update to the previous one. Where in the rules or other material of 40k has GW announced that FW is just as legit as codices etc. are?

            Well, either that friend of yours was in the top 5 by sheer luck or you have lost every game against him when you have used an actual CSM list.

            The game is designed to be played in a way the gamers want to play it, right? Is the GW party line not that it’s products are designed to be used to have fun in what ever way the decide to have that fun? Unless this line of thinking has changed between the latest iteration of the rules the min maxing is one thing the game is designed for.

            AoD is a very minor crack at the fringe the jagged edged hole that is the broken codices.

          • Every FW book says the rules are official for 40K. More importantly nowhere in the game does it say you can’t bring FW without permission, and since they’re official supplements made by the same company the idea that they are optional and anything else isn’t is just nonsense. Like most of your complaints the solution is to not play with jerks.
            And again, as I’ve said how many times, “competitive 40K” is not a good system, if that’s what you want there are plenty of games that are play tested and tweaked and balanced to be fair. Those of us who actually like 40K play for the story, and the codexes simply don’t need to be balanced for that to be fun.

          • Nubu

            What FW says is meaningless. Only GW’s word has value in this matter. I don’t think the rules forbid me from bringing hungry hungry hippos to the table so that too is meaningless.

            Now, what is good and what is not is your opinion. Also if playing just games against armies that can be won you would have to skip 90%, maybe 95% of the matches available for a CSM player. Just saying…

            There is no inherent story in 40k. You have a mission and you have the rules. That is it.

          • Lol, FW is GW dude. I can honestly say you sound like you’re going out of your way to have a bad time, good luck with that. And if you seriously don’t understand that the whole reason for playing 40K is story telling, you’ve missed so, so much of the game, well, it’s sad frankly.

          • Nubu

            Same company or not, different design team and GW has not yet aproved FW stuff publicly.

            What I’m pointing out here is that you are adding stuff to places you can not legitimately claim that stuff belongs to.

            To you the whole reason is the story telling. I’m not arrogant enough to claim that my reasons for doing things are the only reasons why anyone would do the same things.

          • It’s not arrogance, it’s reading comprehension:

            “Your collection of Citadel miniatures isn’t just a labour of love and a thing of beauty – it’s also a mighty army, ready for war. Whether you’re looking to recreate a specific battle, or tell new stories set in the warzones of the far future, the Warhammer 40,000 battle game provides the rules you need. At its most basic level, the Warhammer 40,000 game is an immersive and joyous way of interacting with your collection. It’s a social experience, uniting hobbyists of all ages and backgrounds in the wholesome pursuit of unremitting war. No other aspect of the hobby can be shared so easily with friends, and if there happens to be a touch of competition in the mix, then that’s only natural. Taken to its full potential, gaming is also a form of storytelling, the narrative revealed by every roll of the dice. Some of Warhammer 40,000’s most famous battles began this way. Narrative battles often use special scenarios, either taken from one of the many Warhammer 40,000 gaming supplements, or created by the players to meet the needs of the story they want to tell. These narrative battles are an exciting, immersive way of recreating the Warhammer 40,000 setting, where every player is a warlord fighting either to preserve the Imperium or destroy it. They use the rules as foundations to build upon, rather than strictures to rigidly observe. Narrative battles are gaming at its most immersive. Where the outcome of a novel is fixed from the very first page, a game of Warhammer 40,000 is seldom decided until the last dice roll is made. Though one side will inevitably emerge victorious, there is no real defeat – it’s hard to consider yourself a loser after taking part in so fulfilling an experience. When the game is done, you’ll have a treasury of tales, each recalling a moment of daring heroism, or a tragedy brought about by the most damnable ill-fortune. These memories transform the game from a contest of skill into a mighty saga that you helped to an evening’s play. Challenge your friends to tournaments, or recreate great events from the story of Warhammer 40,000. All these things are yours to decide, not just when you embark upon the path of gaming, but each and every time you marshal your army for war. The only limit is your imagination!”

          • You need GW to tell you that GW’s FW rules, that literally say 40k official on them, are official? They did, when they published the rules as official. And, it’s not arrogance, it’s reading comprehension:
            “Your collection of Citadel miniatures isn’t just a labour of love and a thing of beauty – it’s also a mighty army, ready for war. Whether you’re looking to recreate a specific battle, or tell new stories set in the warzones of the far future, the Warhammer 40,000 battle game provides the rules you need. At its most basic level, the Warhammer 40,000 game is an immersive and joyous way of interacting with your collection. It’s a social experience, uniting hobbyists of all ages and backgrounds in the wholesome pursuit of unremitting war. No other aspect of the hobby can be shared so easily with friends, and if there happens to be a touch of competition in the mix, then that’s only natural. Taken to its full potential, gaming is also a form of storytelling, the narrative revealed by every roll of the dice. Some of Warhammer 40,000’s most famous battles began this way.”

          • You need GW to tell you that GW’s FW rules, that literally say 40k official on them, are official? They did, when they published the rules as official. And, it’s not arrogance, it’s reading comprehension:

            “Your collection of Citadel miniatures isn’t just a labour of love and a thing of beauty – it’s also a mighty army, ready for war. Whether you’re looking to recreate a specific battle, or tell new stories set in the warzones of the far future, the Warhammer 40,000 battle game provides the rules you need.
            At its most basic level, the Warhammer 40,000 game is an immersive and joyous way of interacting with your collection. It’s a social experience, uniting hobbyists of all ages and backgrounds in the wholesome pursuit of unremitting war. No other aspect of the hobby can be shared so easily with friends, and if there happens to be a touch of competition in the mix, then that’s only natural.
            Taken to its full potential, gaming is also a form of storytelling, the narrative revealed by every roll of the dice. Some of Warhammer 40,000’s most famous battles began this way.”

          • Nubu

            GW needs to publicly acknowledge FW rules as official.

            Well, if it’s reading comprehension are you sure you comprehended it? CSM is in no way mighty on the table. Also how does any of that go against tournament play which does not tell a story unless you count the basic “this army bashed heads with that army”. I honestly doubt that you have 10 minute prologue with all of your games explaining the reasonsons for the conflict and giving a cursory glance at the background and personal motives of each sergeant and higher ranking model on the table followed by aftermath discussion of how the local environment, politics and such were impacted by the conflict.

  • Wayne Molina

    As I have stated elsewhere, the biggest issue with TH is that it makes the good stuff better, so like MoN everywhere, “deathstars”, sorcerers (BL cabal), min-maxing, and doesn’t do enough to encourage actual balanced armies. I keep hearing “lists” with this that is like your typical take the cultist formation, take Typhon to make them zombies, take a Warband and take min CSM and max out on havocs, etc. just still playing to that sort of min-max focused approach.