Traitors Hate: Raptor Talon Review

raptor-night-lords-horz Blog for The Blood God here to take the Chaos Marines’s new Raptor Talon Formation for a spin. How good is it?

Howdy Heretics! Dean from Blog for The Blood God here with a new weekly review / Tactical article series for the formations found in the new Traitors Hate Chaos Space Marine Suppliment! If you have any ideas / tactics you wish to contribute / discuss head over to my Facebook Page and shoot me a message! Without further adue lets get into the Third installment!

RAPTOR TALON

FB_IMG_1473117638839

Units:

1 Chaos Lord, must be equipped with jump pack for free.

3 -5 units of Raptors or Warp Talons in any combination.

Rules

Predatory Warriors – can charge the turn they arrive from Deep Strike, but count as a disordered charge when they do.

Cacaphonic War Cries – enemy units that are charged by 2 or more units from this formation reduce thier LD by 2.

Loadouts:

First lets discuss the units, what to take and how to equip them.

Warp Talons have no real upgrade options, so no need to discuss them here. I also highly prefer the Raptors in this formation for several reasons, mainly thier flexibility and ability to perform multiple tasks.

Raptors, these guys will put out plenty of damage on any unit of basic troops like guardsmen or fire warriors etc. So when equipping them I go for tank hunters, give them 2 melta guns and combi melta & melta bombs on the champion.

I do not suggest taking flamers for a few reasons, First, you are not likely to deep strike within optimal range due to potential scatter. Second, you do not want to kill too much of the enemy unit with shooting and hurt your chances of making it into combat. Third, if targetting hordes you want to charge the turn you arrive but not destroy your enemy, this way you get to fight and destroy your opponent in thier turn which protects you from thier shooting. Fourth, Raptors already dish out damage to the same types of units that flamers hurt so the flamers are not strictly needed.

As for plasma guns, while they are very powerful, firing rapid fire weapons prevents you from charging. So plasma completely defeats the purpose of the formation.

Now for the Chaos Lord there are several very strong builds and ways to equip him. Since we have established the Tank Hunter Raptors are the optimal loadout I suggest pairing your lord with similar equipment. A combi melta is a great starting point. There is no need to give him melta bombs as the Raptor champion has those so we now have to decide what close combat weaponry the Raptor Lord wants. Personally I would keep it simple and just go with the good old power fist. You could go with the Axe of Blind fury but that requires the mark of Khorne. Since the unit counts as making a disordered charge the mark of Khorne is a waste of points and also stops you from taking the other, superior marks on the Raptor unit.

Speaking of marks, I suggest leaving the unit unmarked and saving the points, going for minimum upgrades will allow you to take more units and this increase your damage output and durability. That being said mark of Nurgle is pretty strong on any unit so definitely worth considering.

DG_ASLT_0001

Thoughts:

So is this formation good? In my opinion it is the best in the book, and short of the Cyclopia Cabal it is the best formation Chaos have access to. Kit it out for anti tank, deep strike in, pop transports and then assault the occupants. This will ruin Demi Companies, Guard formations etc.

Weaknesses:

This formation, as with all formations has some glaring weaknesses. For this formation it is reserves and scatter rolls. These two combined can spell doom for the RaptorTalon so I suggest taking a bastion or aegis defense line with a comms relay, this will help your reserves. If you want to protect against mishaps check out this chart for advice on deep strike placement.

Web

Conclusion:

So what are your thoughts on this formation?

Have I missed any fantastic uses? How would you equip them an what tactics would you use? Chuck some comments below or join the conversation on Facebook. Lets show the false emperors lackies what the power of chaos can do!

-Dean Sinnbeck

 

  • Aaron

    would a dimensional key help this formation at all?

    • Nubu

      Only if you can consistently get it to work before turn 2.

    • Karru

      Not really, the problem with the Dimensional Key is that it requires the character wielding it to kill something in the Fight Sub-phase. This creates a major problem since no one in their right mind would allow you to charge them turn 1 so you can get the effects of the key to the second turn. If you wait longer than that, you have to wish for the formation not to come in before that.

    • nurglitch

      An activated Dimensional Key would probably do wonders for this formation, the Cult of Destruction formation, and the Terminator Annihilation Force formation. Now, here’s something interesting I noticed about the Maelstrom of Gore core formation: The option of taking a Chaos Lord instead of Kharn is limited only by the requirement to take a Mark of Khorne. Then you can equip either a Jump Pack or a Juggernaut of Khorne. I’d go with the Jump Pack because the formation already makes the Lord Fleet and adds +3″ to his charge. Mind you, that Juggernaut will ignore the -2″ penalty of any difficult terrain. Either way you have a guy that can charge 24″ on average, thanks to Fleet putting his charge rolls at 9″ on average (average re-roll of either dice is 4.5″), and getting +3″ to that.

      • Mr.Gold

        add in KDK flesh hounds – for scout & wounds and you will be in the opponents face from turn 1…

        • Scout stops you from charging though

        • nurglitch

          You don’tneed the KDK. You can take infinite Spawn.

          • Malisteen

            but the spawn don’t scout. Again, not that it mattered, because scout prevents assaults.

      • Malisteen

        Still pretty iffy. An alternative option is a cabal (or just multiple psykers) fishing for worldwrithe or soulswitch (alongside some scouts or infiltrators) in order to get that turn one charge, except…

        Except at that point you’re already talking about some thousand points in your first wave, you don’t have much room left for raptors, which have become kind of superfluous anyway.

  • Majere613

    A couple of things to add. One advantage Warp Talons have in this formation is that they have the Daemon special rule, which means Icons from Chaos Daemon allies will reduce their scatter to D6. (Annoyingly they can’t get a full precision DS since they don’t get the ‘Daemon of xx’ rule, unless they’re from KDK which means you can’t run this formation). A unit of Seekers with an Icon, for example, can be used to run very quickly up the board, act as a beacon, and then be swapped with a unit that can charge through Soulswitch.

    This formation may also be the one time the Dimensional Key is actually worth bothering with. If you can get the Lord’s unit to DS first, then Scatter becomes a non-issue. Indeed, the biggest issue with the formation is controlling the order of the Deep Strikes, so I’d say some sort of Reserve roll manipulation is a must with it.

    • Julien Huguenin

      The Warp talons are expensives, especially with marks, are only good again light/medium infantry not in cover (no grenades !), and they require a super expensive and not reliable setup to land them accuratly (your icon must not be shoot out of the table, be in the correct position, you need to roll for Cursed earth, etc).

      As for the Dimensional key, it will only help 1/3 of your reserve, IF you mange to make it work. You need to kill something in close combat, meaning you are already at the end of turn 2 at best. by then 2/3rd of your reserves already arrived.

      • Majere613

        To be honest, I think that just sums up the very delicate balancing act with formations like this. After all, if it was trivially easy to make a turn 2 deep strike and assault anything you wanted, then people playing shooting armies would be justifiably annoyed, especially units like Centurions that can’t Overwatch.

        The most obvious way to make this work that I can see is to run it with Tzeentch Daemons. That way you can have Fateweaver for the re-rolls and access to Divination for Scryers Gaze, you can Summon expendable units of Horrors to deliver the Icons to the right places, and you can have disk-riding Heralds to cast Cursed Earth. That also gives you 4++ or 3++ Warp Talons, depending on Mark, and you could also make that re-rollable.

        • ZeeLobby

          Aw. Poor centurions. Lol. As a gun line player I’d be fine with this without the restrictions. For the cost it puts out an extremely wimpy amount of dmg.

          • Majere613

            It’s not really about the damage, as such. If a squad of Raptors makes it into assault with a large Centurion unit on turn 2, the problem isn’t that the Centurions are likely to die- T5 and a 2+ save makes that unlikely. The problem is that for as long as that combat goes on, they aren’t shooting anyone.

            That’s what people often forget when it comes to melee vs shooting debates- if you shoot a melee unit, you damage it but unless you cripple it it still does its thing. If you assault a shooting unit then even if it survives, it’s not doing what it’s meant to do which can be better than wiping it out.

          • ZeeLobby

            Lol. My point was that grab cents are broken as is. If my “broken” unit can counter your “broken” unit I’m fine with that. Imagine if they didn’t have this option. Would any CC unit in power armor even make it close to your cents? Not likely…

        • Nubu

          Oh crap, the nowbroken units could be countered somehow! This can not be!!

          • ZeeLobby

            Yeah. He kind of missed my point.

        • nurglitch

          Actually, what you do is bring Chaos Daemon Allies. Leave some Chaos Daemon units equipped with Instruments of Chaos in reserve with the Warp Talons. Then, when you roll for reserves on those Daemon units you can bring the Warp Talons along if they make the roll, or continue to roll for the Warp Talons if they fail. It’s rather like a re-roll for the Warp Talon’s reserves.

  • Matt Craufurd

    I played a game with it. I played 2 melta Raptor squads and a warp Talons with MoT. The biggest weakness of the formation is that you are keeping 600pts in reserve, so if you loose first turn, what you do have on the table better be able to withstand a lot of fire power because your opponent is going to have less targets for his entire army to shoot at.

    • mysterex

      I know what you mean. I was looking at this formation and thinking it would cost a around 500 points at the minimum size of 3 5-model raptor units.
      Then I started thinking about what else could be bought for those points.

    • ZeeLobby

      Which is symptomatic of 40K right now in general. Better get that first turn and have better guns. For most games it’s decided when you picked up your faction.

    • nurglitch

      The Lost and the Damned costs something like 305pts for a Dark Apostle and 4×10 squads of Cultists. You can take more units of Cultists if you choose, to soak that first turn.

      • Matt Craufurd

        Ive been looking at ways to make the Warband work. I’m going to try 2 min squads of Terminators with Obsec Land Raiders to try and soak the fire.

        • nurglitch

          My current BC army is a Warband with a Raptor Talon in auxiliary, and then an Allied detachment of Chaos Daemons. I don’t think the Land Raiders are worth it unless you have cheap bubble-wrap like the Lost and the Damned. The Warband does have the capacity to max out the MSU, and especially let you pile on the Havocs, Raptors, Helbrutes and other 115pt units.

          • Tesq

            If you wanna make work keep in resereve part of your army you must keep stuff in los for 2 turn move nothing, and bring stuff av 14 which is immune to grav and lance special rule aka veneange weapons battery x2 S8 vp3 72″ shoots mounted on a AV 14 buildings.
            Also park some lascannon in umit of 10 csm and park em in cover, enojoy how your opponent try to remove 1 lascannon with 10 wounds on a 4+ cover

          • Malisteen

            I’ve been looking at a warband with abaddon (to wall challenges) plus a cabal (to fish for worldwrithe or soulswitch) in a big unit of obsec tzeentch terminators, plus msu everything else. Plus as many renegade knights as will fit, with leftover points filled with spawn or extra meltabike squads. Like so:

            Total: 1850 exactly
            Black Crusade
            – Warband
            – – Abby (warlord)
            – – 5 Termi: MoT, 5x melta, 4x axe, 1x fist
            – – 5 CSM: 1x plasma, rhino
            – – 5 CSM: 1x plasma, rhino
            – – 3 bikes: 2x melta
            – – 3 bikes: 2x melta
            – – 5 havocs: 2x autocannon
            – Auxiliary Spawn
            – – 1 spawn
            Cabal
            – Sorc: lv3, familiar, staff
            – Sorc: lv3, familiar, staff
            – Sorc: lv3, familiar, staff
            Forsworn
            – Knight: sword, gattling, rockets

            One obsec psychic deathstar, 7 other obsec units, plus a spawn, and a knight.

            Not going to shoot anything off the table turn one, but still. Not entirely shabby.

  • Painjunky

    “So is this formation good? In my opinion it is the best in the book, and short of the Cyclopia Cabal it is the best formation Chaos have access to.”

    Well that just shows how pathetic CSM formations are…
    The only reason this formation is being talked about is because CSM formations are so weak and useless (apart from cabal).

    If SM had this formation they would NEVER use it. It would be seen as the crap version of skyhammer which it is,

    • mathhammer

      not really, Back in the day(5th) I ran a blood spike (blood Angels) list with 3xVanguard Vets, and 3xdevastators and did really good at tournaments (16th at a national level one) the ability to deepstrike and charge ruins the plans of most armies.

      • Karru

        I’d like to remind you that those Vanguard Veterans not only were able to deep strike on one D6, they also didn’t suffer from Disorganised Charge and had more attacks base. This formation has so many problems that it makes it extremely bad, while being the best formation CSM has outside Cabal.

        • mathhammer

          o those vanguard vets were 330 pts per unit of 5 (storm shield + Lightning claw, 1 power fist) and a priest out of unit range.

          I just think adding the ability to do the charge on deep strike makes for a powerful addition, if you can get the right item near them it can minimize the scatter. Do i think it makes chaos armies great again, no. (and 3rd ed chaos was broke). I like the formation for what it adds to chaos which is across the board mobility. CSM needs more mobility but in a chaos fashion not in a space marine copy fashion. (also squad leaders being more blessed helps) (I think the choas part of CSM is under utilized currently) (And yes I have a large Huron army)

          • Nubu

            What is that “right item” and how do you get it near them?

          • Karru

            I’d also very much like to know what this “right item” is. The Dimensional Key is the only CSM item I know of that reduces scatter and it’s useless.

        • Malisteen

          Nah, the best formation CSM have outside of the cabal is the Warband. This and the mauler are a tier below that, and somewhat playable, though you’re right that it’s only because the rest is so terrible.

          If we count FW, then Cypher’s Fallen (with just cypher and a single plasmaspam squad) is alright, too.

      • Pyrrhus of Epirus

        Is this 5th or back in the day? the discussion is about how valid they are today, in 7th, and the formation is weak today.

      • Painjunky

        That’s nice but we are talking about the current meta, 7th ed and CSMs.

  • yoash barak

    Well, the fact the raptors are equipped as anti-tank dudes have no bearing on the lord actually.
    He can join talons for meq mulching, OR he can even go solo and do his own thing.
    A lord dropping out of nowhere and charging something on his own can do quite a lot of damage if he gets a good target for his charge.

    • nurglitch

      He also counts towards the Leadership penalty if you land and charge him separately.

  • Nubu

    Too random, no staying power, not enough shots to make a difference and not killy enough in melee to threaten anything.

    I’ll pass.

  • Karru

    As far as formations go, this one is very, very bad. It is the best formation that CSM gets outside Cabal and that does say something about the quality of CSM formations and units.

    People keep saying that any Deep Strike Assault is devastating, but the problem is that this formation suffers from an insane amount of problems regarding that. Not only are you placing 500+ pts to reserve, you have nothing to help them come out of there unless you invest even more points to it with Bastions/Aegis. This leads to you being severely handicapped on the first turn and even on the following depending on the dice roll. Then comes the problem of Scatter and lack of damage output. Due to lack of Scatter Reduce, you are forced to minimize the unit to reduce footprint. This leads to you lacking actual damage in combat since those 5 guys are getting only 11 attacks, 9 if you take 2 Special Weapons.

    This comes back around to the same problem that all Melee units have in this game. Why bother with Melee Units since Ranged Units do better job at everything they do.

    • Melee in general needs a tune-up. I’ve begun to understand why some guys in my group wish for a return to the days when you could consolidate into combat…

      • That swings the pendulum the other way. I played in those days. You never saw shooting armies either because why bother shooting when you can just get into assault right away and never be shot at again.

        • Karru

          That’s one of the reasons why I liked 5th edition so much. I saw both armies do great during those days. Since you couldn’t consolidate to another combat, you couldn’t just roll the entire enemy board in one turn, while ranged units couldn’t just hug the corner of the table and leaf blow everything away, since outflanking assault units posed quite a threat.

        • Malisteen

          Things have swung too far the other way, though, between shooting being insanely tooled up with the proliferation of anti-everything guns (grav, D, etc), and with assault hammered to pieces (most melee special weapons losing AP or Init, several melee ‘specialist’ units lacking grenades, no assaulting out of rhinos even if they didn’t move, no consolidating into combat, no assaulting fliers/FMCs at all).

          It’s not that there are no functional assault units are armies, but to work they have to be ludicrously over the top, and ever since 3.5, the writers have a crippling fear of letting chaos marines have nice things.

          Honestly, power creep has utterly destroyed this game. Nothing short of a 3.0 or AoS style nuke from orbit has a chance of fixing it.

          • As a game yes… 40k is pretty much destroyed.

    • MechBattler

      Dude. That’s not a problem with the formation. It’s a problem with the CODEX. The formation can’t fix overcosted and underpowered units.

      • Karru

        Which leads to the formations being bad since you don’t want to take them due to high risk/low reward and make them obsolete. This is a fact until they fix the required units.

        • MechBattler

          It’s relative. If you gave the same formation with the same bonus rules to Necrons and they could use a Destroyer Lord and 3-5 units of Flayed Ones that could DS and then immediately assault something, it would be broken as sin. Flayed Ones are cheap, have a high volume of attacks, and due to their unit size can be taken in small units or spammed if you desire. For as little as 195 points you’d have 15 Flayed Ones dishing out 60 attacks. Plus a Destroyer Lord with a Scythe for just 130 points which is hideously effective for the low cost. The whole thing would be 325 points for a tight little group of units that can dump a truckload of attacks onto a target.

          • Nubu

            So, they would be viable then.

          • MechBattler

            Yeah. Truth is, Flayers can actually hit pretty hard in assault. But as someone else on here stated of all CQC focused units, it’s GETTING them to the fight that’s the hard bit. Genestealers suffer from the same thing. Give them Toxin Sacs and they have Poisoned, Rending, and I6 making them lethal to anything smaller than a Gargantuan Creature. IF you can keep them alive long enough to assault. That’s always the caveat. Keeping the CQC unit alive long enough to get where you want it, to assault what you want it to. Unfortunately for a lot of these units, there’s just not a reliable way to do that.

          • Malisteen

            did you remember that the formation only allows disordered charges when calculating 60 attacks on those flayed ones?

  • nurglitch

    This article fails to discuss the upgrade options for the Warp Talons and that’s a failure. Warp Talons, like Possessed, can take up to two Gifts of Mutation on their Warp Talon Champion. If you don’t want to pay those 10pts, and it’s steep, you can start rolling for your Warp Talon Champion using Path of Chaos while its cooling its heels in reserve. I’d expect it’ll be FAQ’d that you can only Path of Glory a Champion of Chaos on the table though.

    These Chaos Boons can be serious force multipliers, turning a so-so character into something nasty, particularly where the Black Crusade allows you to keep piling them on. Things like Fleshbane, Instant Death, 2+ Armour, and re-rolling armour saves keep these characters alive and pushing forward.

    Veterans of the Long War means Hatred in the first round against Space Marines, and better leadership, and Death to the False Emperor in a Black Crusade means that Hatred extends to any Imperial army. It’s a good thing because that means the Warp Talons are re-rolling hits and wounds in combat, with their Lightening Claws. Against armies that aren’t Space Marines their Cacaphonic War Cries will make their Daemon-caused Fear an effective defense, allowing them to tarpit units like Riptides, and one-shot Jetbikes. Reducing their opponents to WS1 is useful where otherwise they might be hitting on 4+.

    Let us not forget that these Warp Talons can piggy-back on Chaos Daemons with Instruments of Chaos arriving from reserves, and use Icons of Chaos already on the table to reduce their scatter to 1D6. They’ll also benefit from the Grimoire, Cursed Earth, and other daemon-specific items.

    • Nubu

      Just for giggles, what is the cost for a kitted lord and 3 warp talon squads? I’m willing to bet around 700 points. You can get a wolfstar cheaper than that.

      • Karru

        Well, the baseline cost for them is 545pts without anything. If we add all those Gifts of Chaos that Nurglitch so seemed to like, we are at 615pts! That’s without any gear or marks for the Lord or Warp Talons.

        • Nubu

          Yeaaah. I smell brown stuff in this formation.

      • nurglitch

        Closer to 600pts.

        • Nubu

          So, roughly the same as invisible wolfstar.

          • nurglitch

            Less dependent on rolling invisibility too.

          • Nubu

            And less of a threat than the wolfstar, invisibility or not.

          • nurglitch

            Could you explain this, please?

          • Nubu

            Ap3 with s4 is moot in this game at the moment. Units have 2 roles now. They either cap objectives efficiently or the kill what ever they come across. If a unit does not fill one or both of these roles it’s useless. This is why 5 man tac squad in a free razorback or pod is viable just like a WK is viable, but CSM in a rhino are not just like vendetta is not.

          • nurglitch

            Thank you for the insight.

        • Tesq

          2 venenage weapon battery and a inquisiton ally for 1 converion beamer + retunie cost 170+115 points.
          Basically if anythig cost mroe than aroudn 300 pt dont use it.

    • Karru

      Ah yes, the infamous Boon Table strategy that requires only insane luck to pull off with no skill involved. Even if you give those Talon Champions Boons, you have more likely to throw useless results as the game plays on. Unless of course that double Adamantium Will or +1 strength to the imagined range weapons is part of your strategy.

    • Malisteen

      You only get one free boon a turn. Far better to spend it on a unit from the warband, for that double roll that amplifies your chance of getting something good while reducing your chance of bad rolls to 1/81 instead of 1/9.

  • MechBattler

    My favorite trick is putting the Mark of Slaanesh onto Warp Talons. Since they all have lightning claws, getting to swing first in combat against most targets is awesome. They’ll mow down a sizable amount of the enemy models before they can even hit back, improving the Talon’s survivability.

    • Nubu

      How does this counter screamerstars or the like?

    • Malisteen

      since they lack grenades, that’s heavily dependent on the terrain situation.

      • MechBattler

        We find ways to work around that.

        • Malisteen

          The problem is that there aren’t many ways to work around that. Whether your opponent is in cover or not is dependent on how much cover there is on the table, and the decisions of your opponent. You don’t get a lot of say in the matter.

  • Malisteen

    Meh. The formation lacks the attacks and tools to be legitimately threatening, especially with disordered charges. And the lack of reliable scatter mitigation in faction means you’re far too likely to mishap, or scatter outside of melta & charge ranges regardless.

    The formation isn’t terrible, if you want to field CSM jump troops this is how to do it, but it’s a far cry from ‘good’. Honestly, imo, this formation is less of a game changer for raptors & warp talons than the Warband is for terminators and CSMish units in general.

    It’s certainly one of only three formations from TH that I’d honestly consider running (the other two being the warband and the maulerfiend formation), so it could have been a lot worse. It’s a far, far cry from the Cabal, though.

    • Tesq

      termy formation is a really really strong one but you need to be good with the “just as planned” thing, Mauler one seems good on paper but that 110 ot tax for the warpsmith in some list can be heavy, also just 1 mauler get +1 on the inv save not a lot indeed , ye char is usefull but i always do it even with out it; so it’s all just 4+ on 1 mauler and rage if that one die, not really a lot for 110 tax pt of 1 model that you can live with out by buy 1 veneange weapon battery And still have some point left

      • Malisteen

        The termi one is garbage. If you want to play with termicide, field it out of the warband formation. At least then they get objective secured instead of basically nothing. Well, alright, the termi formation lets them shoot before interceptor, so it’s not literally nothing, but still.

        The mauler one gets a character, able to pick out enemy characters in challenges. That’s a big boost for them, and maulers aren’t bad to begin with. Plus the smith, unlike the termi sorcerer, can actually ride around with some CSMs in a rhino.

        • Tesq

          That’s your bad then, do not play rhino, if you do not even understand that the only army that can use rhinos is SM with demi company then you are doomed and there is nothing i can say to you
          Termicide cost like 330 pt and can take back probably the double of it’s point.
          You can use biker, juggy lord, and mauler you do not need rhino at all. You do not need all your army to move 12″ and rhino is a easy first blood and first blood make you win in most of game.

          Second thing termicide will die, they enter pop stuff and die; there’s no sense makeing them OS since they re called termicide for a reason.
          Moreover your objetive as CSM it’s kill enemy not focus on Take BO but rather remove things from it.
          Stop play like a SM player please.

          • Skathrex

            How I love the balanced and well manered tone in those type of discussions…

            Seriously check your tone dude.
            While I agree with some of your points your tone makes me really not wanna relate to you in any form.
            I agree on the termis, but I disagre on the Rhino.
            The Rhino is for the 2 CSM Units from the Warband, and its just a Midfield Objective capper.
            And I honestly can’t remember when First Blood decided a game for me.
            Do you play a lot of Eternal War Missions? On these I remember First Blood was important.

          • Tesq

            i do not play malestorm cuz cannot stand my opponent draw cards and have first turn 3 points while i get 0 cus he got lucky, also if you look at all importants torunaments of 2016 there was an article with partecipants intervention that first blood in a fight between well balanced army it’s usually the key to vitcory.
            Also you do not need to play rhino to have many small unit, you can simply park csm in cover and it’s jsut better due to rhino have some many chance to explode and also kills one of your marines.

            My foot list work just fine,(it have 13 medium/small units) you do not need csm to go cc hence you do not need rhino; units that move 12″ are all cc units and of course they alredy move 12″ so you do not need rhino.
            That’s basically why rhino are free for SM cuz no one would play them otherwise.
            One single melta is enough to make it explode and expose the unit to the subsequentaly charge from the shooty unit (faq from gw it can be done).

            You do not need OBJ secured either, cuz if your cc unit reach enemy deployed zone then you have won because it’s likely you have alredy deleted from the table anything between your and his deploy zone.
            And those camped units will share the same fate vs your maulers and hq.
            Park 3x csm unit with 1 lascannon each, laugh as they try to remove it. In 4+ cover, while your turrents and converion beamer hit everything so easily and wounds at 2+ and ingore any 3+ and even 2+ saves. If anything came clsoe to steal your objectiove they take a rain of fire from 30 csm + other cc units charges.
            Make pop termy everywhere, shoot twice in 1 turn and on multiple targets, buy some buildings for the suppression fire csm lack ( which is why you cant play decurion style list even if you gain hatred vs all emp faction, you cant use buildings and those cover for lack of fire support of csm and also being immune to lance and grav weapons).
            Then take 1 sorcer with new formation togheter with termy and give it free teq armor + spent 10 point in a inquisition psyker for 1 dice more—> roll telepaty use Broken primarys to just destroy anything.(faq it auto hit plus auto wounds and ingroting saves, so bye bye fly mostr creatures and also GMC).

          • Malisteen

            Shooting twice on termicide literally doesn’t matter. Their only good guns are combi weapons, which can only fire once per game anyway. 6 bolter shots is nothing. Shooting earlier in the turn to outspeed knight shields and interceptor is nice and all, but what termicide needed was scatter mitigation, and the formation doesn’t offer that.

          • Tesq

            not really there ware way to mitigate that as the article show which is why my termi always land in between 5-6″ and just 1 of 3 usually end out of 6″ range. Got zero mishap for now and plan to have none too.

          • Malisteen

            Lucky you, I guess? When I tried to make the same things work, I regularly had at least 1 mishap most games. And you still haven’t explained how an extra six bolter shots a turn is something to get excited over.

            If chaos termis had regular meltaguns, I’d be more interested in the option to shoot twice when arriving from reserve, but with combi meltas that can only be fired once per game regardless, I just don’t see the point.

          • Skathrex

            I agree with you, in Eternal War Missions the importance of Objec Secure and Rhinos changes a lot, as does the importance of First Blood.
            I won’t go into Details why I prefer Maelstrom over Eternal War, but lets say if I can help it I won’t play Eternal War anymore.
            But as I said I see your List seems somewhat tailored to EW or static Missions.
            I still don’t know why you want to run 160 Point Units that only fire 1 Lascannon Shot most of the time, but it seems to work.
            The buildings are strong and I wanted to try some for a long time, as backfield protection and supporting fire.
            And allying an Inquisitor to CSM…I don’t know…

            In Maelstrom the Obsec is way more important because you want to accomplish your objectives as fast as possible. In the best cases the round you draw them. And in that environment Obsec swings for way more VPs then 1 VP from First Blood.
            And yes if I play a Gunline, the game is mostly over IF I reach his gunline. But many times one flank dies and just the other reaches him, or he advances too.
            Also Objectiv placement is very important too.
            Rhinos aren’t for getting into assault anymore. Just to get into a better position, which they do still fine (and with a Havoc Launcher the dmg afterwards is still ok)
            But they are far from auto includes. I mostly use them for payloads that need them. Chosen or Melta guys.

          • Malisteen

            How does termicide take back “double its points”. Two squads arrive turn two, one turn three, probably at least one of those squads mishaps or scatters out of range when they drop, they get a cumulative total of nine melta shots per game, three of which most likely miss. So six melta hits per game, scattered haphazardly between turns 2, 3, and 4, if you’re lucky and don’t just lose one to mishaps outright, or land out of range and eat it to some grav cannons before you get to do anything.

            Obsec Rhinos are still about the best 35 points the CSM army has to offer. Just because someone else gets them for free, doesn’t suddenly make everything else but rhinos in our army better. Reserve is a losing game. Deep strike without scatter mitigation is a losing game. If you’re going to pray to the dice gods to be kind to you, then you might as well just take Mark of Tzeentch on everything, and put your faith in 6++ saves.

            And if you’re going to take termicide, then you’re better taking it in the warband for obsec. At least then a unit that mishaps into the far corner of the table might still have a chance of contributing something that game.

          • Tesq

            Not really, call me lucky but my termy always land where i want to, i create holes in enemy army and they fit there just fine, never loost even 1 unit due to mishap, 1 can happen to be out of range but np can happen with dice.

            Useless make em obj secured they gona die they are called termicide for a reason they are take best in min/max of 3, loaded with metla and DS after enemy units had moved so they can treat multiple units, it’s a matter of strategy not power creep sy..

            maulers do not give easy first blood as rhino does, cuz first thing first they have an inv of 5+ second thing you need to place em in LOS for 1-2 turn so ye no firts blood. and enjoy try first blood 10 csm in cover out of your saturation while i outrange you with all my 72″ weapons.

            Cultist are useless they would be not with infiltrate which is why every cultist build fail horrendously.
            CSM are exatly as SM with out not be wiped in cc so they are perfect foot objective folders, give em 1 lascannon and you will have 3 lascaanon for all game shoot the hell out of opponents, taking down easy stuff like rhinos 😛

            Plus help your sorc with telepaty primarys or turrets etc.

            Sy but my csm list work … it really does so good im still uncertain why ppl cannot make csm works, i’m really happy about it and can deal with anything from GK to SM decurion and now even better vs IK due to this termy formation. It is based on a dino list that won one big tournament before 7 ed dropped and fix his weakness. If no one play an hybdric csm list that’s not my problem.

          • Tesq

            you do not take em because ppl want play full kill main burn army or old fashion startegy based on 3.5 edition.

            Sy but csm codex won a major torunaments with a dino lsit jsut before 7th dropped and with eldar at their best in power creep.

  • Tesq

    There’s no points, raptor are point x wounds and x special rules worst than biker, and your best DS option is not talon but termy they always being and they will always remain until a multi melta cost 5 pt.
    The new formation for termy which let you take a sorc and give it free terminator armor + make your termicide even more letal is what csm need (shoot to IK pre shield positioning have no price lol)
    Also if you really want a beast of formation lol posses+ DP is the new csm deathstar right know you just have to throw in a invisibility from telepaty and GG

    -3++(possessed only)
    -shoruded(all)
    -move 12″ (all if dp have wings)
    -Move through cover(all)
    -fleet (All)
    -rending(All)
    -can mix “marks” of the unit with “deamon of” of the DP
    -base cost 345 pt

    -can also add more fun with nurgle mark for t5 s5 possessed (remember they have rending and fleet?).

    Raptor formation is what it is, a way to play night lord style.
    Anyway lord should be kit with Powerfist+ lighing claw for +1 attack and be able to switch between meq/teq+vehicle.
    Raptor should take 2x melta and champion melta bomb.
    Instead MoN a MoS could be better as strike first can result often, after being able to ds and charge, better.
    No point in try to end cc in enemy turn you should have stuff to soft units you do not want to charge ;so brings large blast instead and try to kill fast as you can with less loss as you can, as such is how you should play with csm, kill the more you can when you can.

    • Malisteen

      The formation doesn’t make your termis more lethal at all. The only guns they have worth shooting are combi weapons, which can’t be fired more than once per game regardless of how many times per turn the units carrying them can fire. And the last thing termicide wants is an IC rolling along, the entire point of termicide is that without scatter mitigation deep strike is practically a death sentence and you can’t send any more points down that rat hole than you absolutely have to.

      Better to take the oblit formation, stuff the smith in some random squad, and deep strike 3-5 individual units of one oblit each, same job, similar cost, better results, yeah you won’t get to shoot twice off the smith, but again, with combi weapons on termis you wouldn’t have gotten to shoot twice with them, either.

      Termis did get better in traitors hate, but not from their formation, that’s a heap of garbage. No, it was from the option to give them objective secured with the warband formation. That, and the option to skip the disappointing miniature deep striking units altogether, and instead field a big, meaty foot-slogging retinue plus like 3 sorcerers and just magic them into charge range turn one with worldwrithe or soulswitch.

      • Tesq

        indead they does, first thing first, you can shoot before IK can redeploy their shield which mean DS behind/side and destroy 2 Ik in 1 turn easily.

        Second YOU DO NOT have to keep sorcerer with termies.
        There is wrote anything about sorc must join the formation in reserve like there is for some other formation

        Third have 25 pt free on a char that can use psychic shrek after the faq (which is the best psychic power for warp charge currentyl) it’s retarder good.

        Fourth shoot twice in 1 turn for termi make them x2 their durability or x3 if they do not get removed from the table the turn after the DS.

        • Malisteen

          I fail to see how six extra bolter shots doubles or triples their durability. And I fail to see how three to six melta shots is dropping a knight even if they’re fired before it repositions its shield. Remember, with no scatter mitigation, you can expect at least one of your three units to either mishap or scatter out of melta range.

    • You can’t take the possessed formation as a Crimson Slaughter formation, they are prohibited from taking daemon princes (as they have VotLW and are not on the list of VotLW units CS is allowed to take).

      • Tesq

        first thing first, formation do not force you to take Votlw, it say every unit that can, can take it for free, then also CS say no units can take exept, that dosen’t mean you cant play untit with the specil rule…….you just can’t buy it…….. why do you think dark apostle have the rule for free if you want?

        Crimson slaughter was thinked for be played as supplement for all main codex.

        • Skathrex

          Sadly the new version of the Crimson Slaughter Supplement is pretty clear on it.
          You can’t have VotlW in your army, which means no Unit can take it, and no Unit that automatically has it can be taken in it.
          So no Thousand Sons and no Daemon Prince.

          • Tesq

            ye i checked now, pretty bad line change, i missed that since i do not play any Votlw unit but that’s a shame, unless it need a faq since that 7ed supplement miss a lot of stuff like kranon profile( and maybe unless it just changed for formation ) draznitch tax, another thing to ask gw to clarify in those faq i assume.

          • Malisteen

            Yeah, draznicht’s ravagers isn’t a chosen upgrade anymore, instead it’s a formation with chosen and possessed. Which makes it much, much worse AND prevents you from using them as part of some other formation.

            Kranon never had his own profile, but he did have a canon loadout: Chaos Lord with blade of the relentless, plasma pistol, slaughterers horns, daemon heart, and…. iirc a sigil? But the description of his loadout was removed, most likely because as of the recent core game FAQ it’s no longer legal (only one artifact/relic per character, so you can only have one of the horns, heart, and blade on the same character, not all three).

            When you add that to the change to the vets prohibition, it stacks up to three very separate blows to crimson slaughter. Where once they were CSMs++, now they’re CSMs–.

            Then comes traitors hate, with formations that help the black legion (vet tax for free), while working poorly with the crimson slaughter (no vet tax used to not matter, now it means you miss out on free +1 leadership, plus they can’t even take the possessed formation, which would have been good for their possessed, but sucks for regular possessed)….

            Bad days for Kranon and company. And in the fluff he loses a large portion of what few marines he had. I see the Crimson Slaughter being quietly removed from existance in 8th edition. Unfortunate.

        • VotLW is not optional in a daemon prince, he comes with it and as such cannot be taken legally in any CS detachment. Check the codex, reread the supplement, make sure you read the 2016 version of CS not the old one.

  • Skathrex

    Short question, if I deep strike with jump Units (the Raptors), can I use the Jetpack in the Assault Phase?
    Because rules wise the Deep Strike has nothing to do with using the Jumppack, but from a Fluff perspective. The Raptors use these to “Deep Strike” (or thats what I thought)

  • Skathrex

    Liked the article, was a step back in the right direction after the last one about the Maelstrom of Gore (I tried that. was happy with charging with Khorne Berserkers again, but ultimatly still not good enough).
    Could you elaborate on the Deep Strike Graphic? Why does it get easier to Survive if I am close. It does seem counter intuitiv and I want to see what I might have overlooked.

    Beside from that I agree. The Formation is good and will give Raptors and Warp talon some time to shine. Its not Skyhammer but charging after DS will mess with a few armies.
    If you play with DftS the mitigation shouldn’t be a problem since taking a Helldrake (or 2) is not a big drawback.
    I don’t like to take a relais with a Aegis, but maybe with a Bastion.

    Really sad that the MoK is so bad on them 🙁
    I think I would go unmarked or maybe Slaanesh, because none of the marks really offers something for the offensive.

    My loadout will be 2 Units of Raptors with 2 Meltas and a Melterbomb and a Unit of Talons with a Lord with Fist and Claw.
    Although I am debating if I should give the Lord a Murdersword, because he can pretty reliably attack the target he wants to.
    Or if I go Khorne anyway 😉

    • Malisteen

      DS is arguably easy to deep strike if you’re close because the result on two dice will cluster around 7. So if you’re deep striking next to something small, you’re more likely to scatter over to the other side of it rather than land right on it.

      I’m pretty skeptical, though, as something has to be very small and very isolated for that to work out for you.

      I’d still advocate deep striking close to the target if you’re trying to get meltaguns in range via termicide or raptorcide squads, since scattering out of melta range is basically the same as mishapping anyway in that case.