40K RUMORS: Custodes & Sisters of Silence Stats

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The first set of rumors on 40K stats are here.  Buckle up – there is rules turbulence ahead…

The Rumors

via B&C’s StaggerLee 10-15-2016

According to a mate, these are the profiles for custodes and sisters:

Custodes:
ws6, bs4, s5, t5, w2, i5, a3, ld10, 2+/4++.
hatred, furious charge, rampage.

Sisters:
ws5, bs4, s3, t3, w1, i5, a2, ld10, 2+.
Preferred enemy (psykers), hatred (psykers)
furious charge and a pariah blade which inflicts ID on any model with the psyker special rule and otherwise is ap3.
they will have the pariah rule meaning they can never be the target of any psychic power. and all psychic powers cease to be in effect within 6″ of the unit

salt

Thoughts

Ok, now before we get started, let’s all breath and apply a bit dose of salt. There are some dubious sources for these, and 4Chan was mentioned.

Some stats that seem highly unusual:

  • BS:4 for Custodes?  That seems a bit on the low side.
  • 2+ armor for Sisters? Artificer is certainly possible for such rare elite troops, but it still seems off based on the model’s appearance.

For the record, let’s go back and pull up the actual rule text of the “pariah rule” which could interpreted as either of the following:

The Necron Pariah rules from way back in their last codex appearance:

necron-pariah-rules

The Culexis Assassin current edition rules:

culexis-soulless-rules

The rules described don’t match either exactly, but have more in common with the Culexis.

~What do you think?

 

  • Scammel

    Clearly nonsense. Custodes get wrecked by the Gal Vorbak and are only slightly superior to Marines individually. They’re on par with SM Veterans, not Ork Warbosses.

    • Kevin Maloney

      Actually, it was more of a mutual wrecking, if I remember The First Heretic correctly. Plus the Gal Vorbak had at least two heroes in their ranks (Argel Tal and Xaphen).

    • normann97

      Using novel for stats and rules, is like using a child picture to determine interior of a tank.
      Don’t be like that.

    • Haighus

      Yeah, the Gal Vorbak was mauled by the Custodes too, from the wording it was pretty much one-for-one. There were more Gal Vorbak though. These Custodes stats are very similar to the Gal Vorbak stats, so I think that is reasonable.

      • BurpinforDayz

        I think this exactly why we need an Argel Tal Heresy miniature with rules.

        Make it happen GW.

        • Talos2

          Make it happen fw

        • Ben

          The bromance between Kharn and Angel Tal was legendary..many manly tears were shed at the end of Argel’s story.

    • Leif-Georg Johansen

      The Custodes is mentioned somewhere in the lore to individuably being abel and strong enough to singlehandly defeat up to ten fully armoured Astartes (possibly without weapons) while being unarmoured and without weapons themselves, and all of them almost at one time.

      • Scammel

        Sorry, but we badly need a recent source for that, it runs heavily contrary to their depiction in TFH. So little has actually existed about the Custodes for so long that folks have head-canoned their capabilities, when all we have to go on is the sensible assumption that they’re likely better than typical Marines.

        • Oliver Dowling

          Blood Games novel explains a custodes to a marine is what a marine is to a guardsman.

          • Nameless

            but even taking that into account, on the tabletop one marine is worth about 3 guardsmen.

        • Andrew Webb

          TFH was WB fapboy fiction

          • I wouldn’t go anywhere near that far, but it is pretty obvious that AD-B values the rule of cool far higher than many other writers, who go for more “authenticity”. Its great stuff to read, but often goes too far in my eyes.

          • nurglitch

            That’s Heresy!

      • euansmith

        I like to think that all of the fluff is written by Imperial Propagandists, and that the sorry scrum on the table top is the reality. The human population is fed all these takes of superhuman warriors defending the masses from the alien threat; while the Space Marines die in droves on unregarded battlefields. 😉

      • Ciaphas Cain

        If they came at him one at a time. However a squad of marines working together wiil win against 10 random Custodies.

        • An_Enemy

          No. No they wouldn’t.

          The Emperor made them both. Only one was meant to personally guard him.

          Ten Astartes versus ten Custodes would involve one Custodes slaughtering the single squad and the other nine asking him why it was taking so long.

          • euansmith

            Ten Custodes fighting each other for the pleasure of defeating the 10 marines alone. 😉

          • Ciaphas Cain

            Right so the official fluff that stated what I said is wrong.

            The Custodies flaw has always been that they are individuals and don’t work together well. Maybe they may win 10 v 10 but scale it up to 100 v 100 and it’s marines every time.

      • Benderisgreat

        Yeah, and Horus made wise decisions. Tell us another one.

    • Oliver Dowling

      those custodes happened to have been fighting through a whole spaceship, had a very nasty crash from atmospheric level, and its pointed out they are injured and there armour is in tatters, and they are outnumbered. Everything is piled against them and they still fight 1-1. Your only using one novels representation of them too, the custodes with pristine wargear at their peake should go through gal vorbak like butter.

      • Scammel

        You say ‘should go through them like butter’, but that’s also contradicted by other remarks in the book, which is to my knowledge one of the most recent and reliable sources we have (though I will give Blood Games a look).

        I should make clear that I don’t think these guys should just be Marines – WS5, I5, multiple attacks and artificer armour are probably a minimum – but this guy was testing our collective gullibility when he gave them WS6, Ork Warboss S and T, and nonsensical Hatred and Furious Charge.

        • Oliver Dowling

          we shall see soon enough, but seeing as they are meant to be what a marine is to a guardsman, +1 to the strength and toughness, initative and ws seems like what we’d see when you compare a marine to a guardsman. the +1 wound i can also see as they have to be really tough to personally defend the emps.

          • nurglitch

            In Warhammer +1 to any stat is something like a shift in an order of magnitude in the fluff.

        • Blood Games predates The First Heretic. Hands of the Emperor is more recent.

        • Bulvi Nightbane

          The Custodes are also depicted in Thousand Sons, where the 1kSons fear them and need concentrated fire to bring them down, and in Deliverance Lost where some are hanging out with Corax. I will see if I can find some quotes.

    • Fluffy the destroyer

      to clarify, that fight was 3 custodes vs like 11 gal vorbak, and 7 of those gal vorbak didn’t survive the fight

      • An_Enemy

        It also seems that these guys are forgetting that the Gal Vorbak are the purest and most powerful Possessed…ever really. Since Chaos made them to impress and woo Lorgar.

        The same people saying that marines could take out Custodes are also using the Gal Vorbak fight to support themselves when…as you said…they were outnumbered and still killed most of the Vorbak. Gal Vorbak would just steamroll normal marines.

  • Recalcitrant Daze

    The Custodes stats certainly seem in line with the description Alan Bligh gave of them at the last Heresy Weekender.

    The Custodes are a step up from Marines (inc. Vets) and each could almost be considered a hero in their own right. He warned they would be very powerful, but very few in number.

  • Aezeal

    I just don’t see the T 5 on custody personally.

    • Haighus

      I can see either T5 or W2. Having both seems a bit too much.

      • Not if we actually look at their lore. There’s a reason they’re the Emperor’s personal guard.

      • Aezeal

        I was thinking the same.. but thought 2W more likely.

  • normann97

    Ugh, guys, will you stop acting like brainless servants of Nurgle and also stop using this Gal Vorbak VS Custodes scene for ACTUAL rules? It is just a novel, it doesn’t have to be realistic (in 30/40K sence).
    Otherwise, you soon be wondering, why Cato Sicarius haven’t wiped out Tau and Necrons both on his own. Fictional literaly is fictional and should not be used for drawing out any proper data.
    P.S. Yet from some mentionings in the Lore, we know, that Custoders are akin to Space Marine Captains in matter of skill – but are horrible teamworkers, due to their individuality.

    • Scammel

      Actually, that information comes from TFH (‘lions vs wolves’), but why pay any attention to the fiction that informs this science fiction game? To assume that these depictions would have any impact of the game used to recreate these depictions makes you rather brainless.

      • normann97

        Yup. Go on, use rules to depict epic victories of Kaldor Draigo and Cato Sicarius.

        • Scammel

          Uh, you really want to question whether Draigo can handle a GD on the tabletop?…

          Besides, you have rather neatly sidestepped my point. The suggestion that Custodes are strong individually but may lose out to Marines in squad-based combat is taken from a novel, that you thus claim to be irrelevant. It’s not particularly key to the story, nor are the narrators unreliable in the context of the conversation – it’s a simple, world-building observation. You’ve hurled the baby out with the bathwater and into orbit.

          • Mike Salamandrin

            He’s claim is deriving the ‘percived’ stats of a unit from the fiction is illogical, because abilities change based on the needs of narrative, not the tabletop’s game balance. A single unarmed Firewarrior can kill more standard humans in CC than a fully kitted squad, for example.

      • Mike Salamandrin

        …Because prior to the AdMech codexes Skitarii were described as bionic Guard Stormtroopers and as barbarians with grappling hook arms, their was never stated to be a schism between the electro priest, and pretorian sevitors were a thing. Now we have the GSC Goliath pattern vehicles were ALLWAYS as ubiquitous in the imperium as garbage trucks.

    • Emprah

      The rules are not realistic at all. Just look at the ranges.

    • euansmith

      The fluff is the source of the rules; however, I will give you that the rules never reflect the fluff 😉

    • nurglitch

      Protagonists roll 6s and antagonists roll 1s.

      • normann97

        Protagonists roll 6s and antagonists roll 1s… on morale-check roll >.>

        • nurglitch

          Only prior to the climax.

  • BurpinforDayz

    The sisters of silence seem a bit too much like eldar with the I5/WS5 to be honest. Custodes most likely will have WS5/6 but the 4+ invuln seems about right along with the 2 wounds t5 is a bit much. Would expect them to have fleet or some way of getting into combat easier as being base infantry with no means of transportation seems dumb. as for the sisters they probably have rules similar to that of the Culexus but with more of an emphasis on general debuffs as opposed to the niche of anti psyker (in 30k im guessing that wouldn’t be that useful). Maybe the custodes will have a rule that allows the squad coherency to be extended beyond 3 inches to reflect their independant fighting style (although I doubt they would do them as independant characters.) Perhaps even a 6 inch coherency.

    • normann97

      Just for the record, there will be 40K rules included. So we will see both Sisters and Custodes in 40K games and oh my, Sisters will reap some pain.

    • Mike Salamandrin

      The War in The Webway is literally daemons for days

    • Mike Salamandrin

      They could just be a formation of independent characters with ‘count as a squad’ rules for leadership, transports, and CC

  • Red_Five_Standing_By

    As the game exists today, toughness 5, 2 wounds and 2+/4++ is the only way to really make a low model count army kind of work.

    Will they be a threat on the battlefield? Yes.

    But are they unbeatable? No.

    The Sisters seem about right. Fast, hard and fragile.

    • benn grimm

      They aren’t an army though and I’m pretty sure they won’t be one going forward, they’re an elite force, seconded in tiny numbers in the direst of circumstance (as grey knights should have remained) The only place there would be more than a few would be in the palace of the emp on terra.

  • Randy Randalman

    Having both T5 and W2 is about the only way to make an elite/expensive infantry army viable.
    . That said, Custodes are all individual champions, but were never meant to function as a cohesive army. One-on-one, they beat a Marine. As a collective, they don’t stand a chance.

    • benn grimm

      Grey knights seem to function ok without, but as you point out, they aren’t supposed to be an army anyway so it’s kinda neither here nor there.

  • Blackmane

    Oh guys, don’t use the fluff to inform gameplay. Didn’t they once make a set of rules that showed what the Space Marines would be like if they were in the novels and they were unbeatable war gods?

    • Scammel

      The fluff is literally the primary driving force behind gameplay. If it wasn’t, there would be no connection between, say, the quality of a model’s armour and its armour save. Salt needs to be taken when it comes to the capabilities of particular individuals in particular novels, but don’t throw the baby out with the bathwater.

    • euansmith

      Are you taking about Movie Marines?

      http://www.dakkadakka.com/s/i/at/2011/6/moviemarines-01194024.pdf

      Hilarious and awesome, but they wouldn’t sell enough minis.

      • Mike Salamandrin

        How about the realistic marines, that use camouflage and actual tactics

        • Speaking of the reasonable marines is first rate heresy

        • euansmith

          Maybe Ultra Marines are only deployed to planets with a predominantly blue environment 😉

          Of course, back in the Dawn of 40k, these used to be illustrations of Marines in all sorts of weird camo schemes to blend in to all sorts of weird environments; plus Chameoleoline coatings for power armour. Whatever happened to that bit of cool technology? Did the Marines lose the recipe? Or maybe they killed all of the Chameleolions that produced the necessary ingredients?

          • lorieth

            I think they decided Marines were less the shy and retiring sort, and more of the shock-and-awe, let-your-enemy-see-your-face-before-they-die sort.

          • nurglitch

            The Ravenguard get fancy stealth and ambush rules from their formations, as well as bonuses for seizing the initiative, manipulating reserves, retreating back into the shadows, and ending the game.

        • nurglitch

          The Ravenguard?

  • Thatroubleshootah

    my question is which army are these for? can i use them in a dark angels 30k army? what about a da 40k army? would they be allies? i’m kind of lost here.

    • euansmith

      I’m expecting Sisters to turn up as allies with just about anyone who doesn’t want to faff around with the psychic phase. Not fluffy, but win-y. 😉

      • Thatroubleshootah

        so if i don’t want to run unbound i’ll need a sisters hq, and if this unit isn’t a troops then one of those?

        • Brian Griffith

          Not really. If they’re given a formation, that counts as a detachment.

        • Dan Wilson

          I’d imagine for Sisters they’ll operate in the same way the Skitarii do. I.e. they don’t have a separate HQ, one of the unit “champions” becomes the Alpha/General.

    • benn grimm

      They’d be allies for loyalists in 30k. By the fluff, neither would/should be fighting on the battlefields of 40k, though sisters would make more sense. The adeptus custodes don’t leave terra in 40k.

      • Andrew Webb

        Not so. Custodes were known to take part in combat ops to “stay sharp” even back in 2ed.

        • benn grimm

          In Codex Imperialis it says they act as a defensive army of the Imperial palace, they also have no entry in the Imperial Agents list in the black Codex. Lexicanum goes further, stating ‘they always act as a defensive army’, ‘never leave terra, and only rarely leave the palace’ and goes on to say ‘they were never intended to be part of a conquering army’. Of course they train, they just do so without ever leaving terra. In 40k anyway.

          • Brian Griffith

            Given that it’ll take nearly a year before the Custodes get their own separate box, we could see some action on Terra by then…

          • benn grimm

            Haha, I guess anything’s possible…;)

          • Even in 30k, their Blood Games training happens on Terra, and by the time of the 2nd Black Crusade they barely take part in ongoings at all. They keep to the throne’s inner sanctum, and don’t even necessarily wear their GC-era armor anymore.

          • MechBattler
          • Regardless, the GW marketing sheet that went out this week said 40k rules will be released for Custodes and SoS upon preorder, so either a retcon is coming or something new is happening, or it’s just a “hey we made them so here’s rules for them” thing

          • benn grimm

            I’m guessing the latter there. I’m hoping that means they’ll also be getting 30k rules on preorder/in the box, it would be pretty silly if they had rules in 40k before they had rules in 30k.

          • jeff white

            what are they gonna do? say “hey we made these pretty cool models but you can’t actually use them in a game cuz they never leave terra unless you want to play a game in which a small group of custodes are tasked with holding back a sneaky genestealer incursion until reinforcements arrive, in which case you will need these rules…”?

          • I mean, I assume they will release rules for them in a datasheet PDF that doesn’t address any of that at all.
            And technically they didn’t have to do 40k rules for them, tons of 30k stuff doesn’t have 40k rules.

          • jeff white

            they wanna sell models and it is up to you to make sense of the world, including theirs…
            it is not their job to do this for you.
            so,
            idiots who think that their moms write natural law read the rules and think “oh, that means if i combine custodes with units x,y and independent character z, then i can blah blah for a guaranteed win cuz rules”
            are idiots.
            doesn’t matter how many battle mats they sell, or blogs posts that they are responsible for…
            done.

          • “they wanna sell models and it is up to you to make sense of the world, including theirs… it is not their job to do this for you.
            so,
            idiots who think that their moms write natural law read the rules and think “oh, that means if i combine custodes with units x,y and indeendent character z, then i can blah blah for a guaranteed win cuz rules” are idiots.
            doesn’t matter how many battle mats they sell, or blogs posts that they are responsible for… done.”

            You seem to be respond to someone else, this is not relevant to anything I said

          • jeff white

            oops. typing when i should be sleeping

          • Haha it happens to all of us

          • jeff white

            thanks for letting me off easy. the demons seemed real, at the time, i think…

          • jeff white

            i love you man.

      • Victor Hartmann

        I’d speculate Custodes would rotate some fraction of their force to a convenient and important battle zone to keep their fighting skills sharp. If all they did was guard duty and training, they’d lose their edge.

    • 40k rules are coming next weekend

  • SilentPony

    So how would that effect Force? It doesn’t technically apply to the Sisters, but the weapons of the Unit attacking them?
    Cast Force and charge in 7″?

  • Spit-Burn

    Culexi are a bit munchkin, IMHO.

    • Brian Griffith

      I personally doubt they’re going to make each Sister a Culexus-equivalent. Culexi are Pariahs who have been augmented to amplify the trait. As I understand it, it would be prohibitive to augment a whole fighting force that way.

      • It would in 40k, in 30k where the Emperor created whole fighting forces multiple times (Thunder Warriors, Astartes, Custodes and even Primarchs) and advanced technology is far more wide-spread than in the 41st Millennium, its barely worth mentioning.

        • Brian Griffith

          Perhaps, but the Sisters also don’t seem to be rocking Animus helms either.

  • MechBattler

    Better sleep with one eye open Eldar. It ain’t just the culexus you have to check under your beds for anymore.

    And I was right about the Custodes damage output too. With that WS, Str, Int, and Attacks a squad of those guys armed with Guardian Spears is the LAST thing you want to get into CQC with. That’s S7, AP2 5 attacks with rerolls on hits when they charge. With their WS that is just brutal.

  • A Loaf of Toast

    If we assume that the Custodes will be armed with a Guardian Spear (same from Codex: Deathwatch) they’ll have +1S, AP2 (at initiative), and Block. Making them have three S6 AP2 attacks at I5… and once they get outnumbered 4-6 attacks… and if they charge S7 rerolling misses…

    They’re pretty dead killy. Shame about the BS4, granted it might just be a couple bolter shots… so nothing of value is lost.

  • Deathwing

    I would be perfectly fine with those stat lines and special rules for custodes and sisters (assuming the psychic pariah rules are as stated)
    If i recall garro dueled an AC in one of the more recent short stories and barely made it a draw, he was clearly not the odds favored to win that sparring duel, and hes a fairly good captain level astrates.

    Lets remember that in a galaxy with legions of marines (or about 1000 chapters in 40k – so 1000 chapter masters, 10,000 captains, a million astrates) there have only been about 1000 custodes, each pretty much hand crafted by the emperor. They are the Rolls Royce of trans-humans, and the process to create them was basically dumbed down, stream lined using primarch gene tech, and adjusted to “mass produce” adeptus astrates in a process that still takes years when done properly.

    So basically, yes, IMHO that stat line is in line with the fluff.

  • Oliver Dowling

    From Bolter and Chainsword:

    More from 4chan guy:

    Time to carry on from yesterday. Special rules and wargear:

    Custodes: Eternal Warrior, Fearless, Chosen Warriors (each can accept and issue challenges) and always count as a scoring unit.

    Sisters: Denial unit, fearless and fleet.

    Wargear:

    Pariah Blade: Two Handed, s+1, ap3 psyshock (any psyker hit by this weapon must automatically roll on the perils of the warp chart).

    Optional: Bolter with Psyshock Shells (same as a standard bolter but with psyshock) or Flamer with Psyshock fuel (same as a flamer but with psyshock special rule).

    Guardian Spear: s+1, ap2, parry (same as watch master), 2 handed.

    Has inbuilt Guardian Bolter.

    Guardian Sword: s: user, ap2. Has twin linked guardian bolter.

    Guardian Bolter: 18″, s4, ap5, assault 2.

  • nurglitch

    I kind of hope the Tyranid’s Shadow in the Warp gets something similar to the Psychic Abomination rule.

  • nurglitch

    Authors always roll 6s.