The Custodes Invade 40k & 30K: FTN

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The Burning of Prospero box set is such a beautiful release. Are simultaneous rules releases for 30k and 40k a good thing?

The Burning of Prospero box set is live!   It is such a beautiful release.  Rules for 40k and formations dropped a few days on the official Warhammer 40k Facebook page.

Hey guys,

We chat a bit about the Burning of Prospero.  You can find the rules for the 40k use of these crazy awesome models directly from Games Workshop here.

Are we setting ourselves up with hard to manage expectations for 30k/40k crossovers?   I say we just kick back and enjoy it.  As a 30k and 40k player I enjoy the differences between the two games. Still…  I do want to use these Sisters and Custodes in the 41st millennium.

Warzone: Atlanta is just around the corner Nov 11-13th.   On this episode we go over the schedule just a little bit and discuss the 30k Combat Patrol event happening Friday night.  I  am really happy to say how good the prizes for this event and the main event are.  I really love giving stuff away.  Rules for the 30k Combat Patrol event are over at warzoneatlanta.com.

I really want to give a shout out to the GW community team.  These folks have been killing it recently like leaps and bounds more than we have seen or expected from Games Workshop in YEARS!  I think they have some great people on staff who genuinely care about us customers and gamers. It is a breath of fresh air.   I’m talking about everything from feeding us great content on their social media, quick turn around of rules queries and even their own ‘spoilers.’   Keep up the good work guys.. pip pip or whatever you folks say in the UK 🙂

The Finishing Moves segment is sponsored by Gamemat.eu. Their Industrial Terrain set is great and they offer a product that is pre-painted. This, combined with their mats, is a great way to get playing with professional looking game boards fast.

The Finishing Moves segment is all about lenses and lights this time.  We have Adam talk a bit about his techniques and the rest of us share some more ‘low tech’ solutions to this common problem.

 

 

Please follow us on Twitter and like us on Facebook!

 

FTN mostly focuses on Warhammer 40k, but again you will see in the first few episodes we take a severe deep dive into nerdom. These have been a blast to record and I hope they help pass the time for you.
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Credits:
Paul Murphy – Host
@warmaster_tpm

Panelist:
Justin Troop – troopsmash
Christopher Morgan – captain morgan
Adam Abramowicz – Beyond the Brush Studios
Andrew Whittaker

  • Sam Nolton

    Honestly GW has retconned its own background fiction so many times that allowing 30k units to be used in 40k is fine with me. I’m outright hoping 8th edition Age of Sigmar-izes 40k to the point where we just select datasheets for the units we want and build an army. No more decurions or force org. Formations are great but should probably cost a few points extra.

    As for the Burning of Prospero i’m currently building an army around the Null-Maiden Taskforce formation of Sisters of Silence. Love the models and lore. The galaxy is a big place, a small garrison of them surviving from the 32nd century isn’t that hard to imagine. Plus….aren’t the Black Ships still operating in 40k?

    • SundaySilence

      Yay for simplification of 40k!

      • Sam Nolton

        Sarcasm or no? 😛

        • KingThrogg

          Normally I’d say sarcasm, but these formations have pushed the rules of this game past breaking point.

    • OolonColluphid

      Give up the on scrubmar 40k meme. It’ll just kill the player base and force them to move to better games.

      • SupPupPup

        Wouldn’t that be a good thing then?

        • OolonColluphid

          No, because it’ll also damage 30k somewhat as well. As it’s not a cheap game to get stuff for.

          • Xodis

            If its not a good enough game to keep players, and its not cheap enough to entice new players, it deserves to be damaged.

          • You’re mixing up things. He didn’t say 30k wasn’t good enough to keep players.

          • Xodis

            No he said that changing 40K would hurt 30K. If 30K is good enough on its own (as he states), then 30K has nothing to fear.

          • OolonColluphid

            30K is better over all. 40k was a gateway to a game that is better than old Warhammer. But without that, people will just play a the COD of tabletop games instead of something that is both fun and requires actual strategy,

          • Xodis

            If 30K is better overall, than 30K has nothing to fear from 40K getting “Sigmarfied” or whatever people are expecting/wanting.

          • OolonColluphid

            True, but it’s going to be hard to get new players for 30k when the old “Scrubmar 40k” and new games are very different from the other.

          • Xodis

            I disagree with that. If the backlash is anything like it was from WHFB>AoS, 40K players that do not like the new system will transfer over to 30K which (from what I have read since I dont play) is a better polished version of 40K. Leading to an influx of 30K players growing the game possibly even larger than 40K. The only way 40K could damage 30K, is if the “Sigmarification” was successful in creating a well balanced game with a simplified system.

          • OolonColluphid

            Those jumping over will be mostly older players and those with a steady cashflow. Those less muchkins/power gamers would be a good thing.

            30K is more expensive since the best units are made by Forge World (If they have models at all, were are my fraking Siege Terminators?). Though new players would drive down the price , or at least I hope it would.

          • Xodis

            While the most expensive models are FW exclusives, the most prominent models (hordes of marines) are already readily available from GW. It would also look like a better deal for existing players as they wouldn’t NEED to convert to MK2/3/4 unless they really wanted to, they only need to pick up a few specialized models/bits. The only people FW prices are really going to scare off is the new player who isn’t about to spend all that cash on FW models, or GW models and then FW addons to supplement.

          • OolonColluphid

            “Hold on, this is waiting to be approved by Bell of Lost Souls.” Why?

            For me collecting two of my three Legion Astartes armies were a pain in the butt. Pre Eye of Terror Iron Warriors use the older marks and so
            do the Dark Angels. Black Knights were out of the question to use as Outriders for the Ravenwing protocol as I glued the Corvus Hammers to
            them.
            I got lucky with Raven Guard as I run almost all of them as Beakies. Though I use Urasrax to represent Dark Furies as cannon fodder units. Since they don’t exist in the fluff.
            Something Iam able to due to paining Urasax almost all black. Fluffy too because Mechanicum supported the Astartes much better during the Great Crusade
            and the Heresy. Mechanicum is also one of the cheapest armies to get on the table as well.

          • Xodis

            Fortunately for new players (less fortunate for you), the HH “board games” will make collecting MK3 and MK4 a lot easier to get a hold of, then players can flavor to taste.

            I haven’t pulled the trigger on a HH army yet, but since I run a Black Legion 40K army (with large enough groups of the other traitor legions to run an army on their own), and now a Deathwatch army (with small groups of other legions/chapters they show up to “save”) I really dont know how to proceed. Mechanicum doesn’t really interest me though sadly.

          • OolonColluphid

            Too bad. Their really the best allies in the game, because a Forge Master or Praevian can take them to fill gaps in your army. Since Rules of Wars come with weak restrictions such as one slot fast attack or heavy for the huge buffs they provide.(ie. that Legion’s unique soldiers as Troops) You will need Battle-Automata to fill those roles.

      • Andrew Long

        They’ve scrubmar’d 40k twice in my experience. Both times made the game infinitely better and grew new players. Why not Age of Grimdark 40k? It really couldn’t hurt it at the moment, the game is a total shambles.

        On 30k though, I’d love for them to keep current rules set for that and have it pegged as ‘advanced 40k’.

        • rtheom

          Yeah, I don’t necessarily want to see a total AoSing of 40k, but a big rework of units and a drastic reduction in unique special rules and just rules in general would be great. We could easily cut 75% of 40ks rules out and reword what’s left and get something very similar but much easier to play.

        • OolonColluphid

          When are those times? Because the only time would be Rouge Trader, and its not really the same game.
          Nah game is fine, just need nerfs to Assault units so it can go back to being a game that requires skill. Than get rid of formations, or have an HQ + Troop tax like 30k does for allies.

          • Andrew Long

            Rogue trader to 2nd edition to 3rd edition. Each whilst having similar language and concepts was vastly different to one another. 3rd edition was laughingly simple compared to second, and it was brilliant. Now we’re on 3.4 edition and it’s totally overblown and clunky. I see no reason at all that a ground up reworking of 40k couldn’t make it a much better game but still retain the charms of it.

          • ZeeLobby

            That was also a totally different GW back then. I don’t have faith itd have the same results this time. Not to mention the relatively non-existant competition they had back then.

          • Andrew Long

            You speak a lot of truth there. They made a lot of mistakes, but the market was more generous and patient then. GW over the last ten years became fairly hostile and couldn’t have done a worse job of PR.

            That said I love where they’re at right now with their new management, but it’ll take a long time to win back the trust of the community.

            I do wonder if it’s a rose-tinted glasses thing though? I kind of wish we had the net back then to see a record of how fans reacted to those edition changes then. I daresay and faintly recall some being very upset, but I was a very young chap then.

          • ZeeLobby

            Oh. I’m sure there were a fair number of people who were upset, but it’s not like there were many places to go back then. It was also a pretty relaxed crowd back then, primarily made of RPGers, who make up only a portion of the current base.

            My big issue today is simply the quality of the game we get for the somewhat ridiculous cost. I mean for what we pay they should be putting a big effort into gameplay. I don’t think that means just simplifying the game but making a game that’s unique and fun to play. Right now it’s really hanging on thanks to its years of fluff and background.

            That said I do approve of their current changes. They’re definitely starting to head in the right direction. The fact that theyre publicly traded may just keep me away in the end though. There will always be that temptation to increase yearly profits. As we’ve seen with these guys they’ve already reversed their previous statement to make 40K rules to increases sales. I’m just not sure the game will ever be good if every decision is made with money in mind.

          • Andrew Long

            Indeed. That business model near tanked them in the global financial crisis. I’m surprised they survived at all TBH.

            I do play AoS – I enjoy it immensely comapred to WFB and 40k, especially now that the general’s handbook is out. I believe if one can separate the rebooted WFB fluff (40k’s real strength) from the rules it’s actually a really fun and worthy game in the scheme of war-gaming.

            With mostly free rules for all armies, app support, constant releases and starter sets, and cheap paperback books, it’s the most gamer-facing product they’ve made in a decade.

            I think 40k (assuming they didn’t reduce the fluff to ashes) could do a lot worse than have this sort of rethink put to it.

          • ZeeLobby

            Yeah. True. I’ll wait and see with 8th. Im in a holding pattern with GW products. I just can’t help but feel whatever simplification they do won’t eventually grow back into unmanageable mess as they release the next OP product to boost the quarters sales. I’d say a year of good, and hinestly conservative, releases and I’ll consider buying back in outside of a model here or there to paint.

          • rtheom

            That’s the eternal problem of laziness in game design. In theory it really shouldn’t be hard to keep people interested enough in all factions of a game to keep them buying regularly to encourage continuous sales and eliminating the need for big ticket items to boost sales, but it takes much more dedication to the entire game, balancing it, fine-tuning it, and regularly providing each faction with neat tricks and tactics. It’s so much easier just to make and spit out those big “must haves” and just have big spikes of earning to make up for deficits the rest of the year. We see the same thing in online MOBAs, but there it’s at least easier to update the product shortly after the big burst of sales to make it more in line with the rest of the game.

          • ZeeLobby

            Yeah. A. Lot of what we’ve seen lately. Just not interested in supporting a game like that.

          • rtheom

            Yeah, it’s not just GW, it’s most tabletop games. It’s the reason they all eventually transition from miniature games into action figure games. :: eyes the collosal warjacks and warbeasts ::

          • ZeeLobby

            Eh. At least they had an existing place in the fluff, fighting the orgoth (unlike wraithknights, dreadknights, etc.), and at least their power levels are priced correctly points wise. I don’t mind big centerpiece pieces, as long as taking one usually requires most of your points. It’s when you can easily field 5, and they decimate armies, that I have issues.

          • rtheom

            Yeah, I don’t mind it so much if it’s something fluff based originally and/or the players want it, but even small models can be examples “buy me because I’m OP!” But that in general (powerhouse models constantly 1-uping each other) is a prime example of where lazy profit wins over thoughtful and fun game design, because most game systems I can think of will often say in their fluff that such high powered units are exceptionally rare or only seen in the toughest of fights. Then the rules will basically say “take as many of these whenever you want because”, and not only does that ruin the “specialness” of the powerful units, it also eliminates any connection you feel between the game and the fluff it’s built on. I should be feeling like Imperial Knights are a rarity that only appear when I’ve got my tyranid hordes maxed out and the battle is in real dire straights. I shouldn’t feel like there’s just an entire universe of Imperial Knights walking around waiting to kick puppies and my tyranids are literal bugs constantly trying to run from them. ;p

          • ZeeLobby

            Lol. Or how wraithknights are supposed to be piloted by extremely rare psychically linked twins and yet every daily patrol brings 3 of them.

          • OolonColluphid

            Making it a low skill melee game like Scrubmar isn’t going to work. Most players would rather abandon it all together.

          • Andrew Long

            I’m not literally saying use age of sigmar rules, more saying use their mind set of taking existing concepts and drilling them down into simpler and quicker rule sets.

            40k is a gun game through and through, and whatever rule set they use would need to reflect that.

            But if like age of sigmsr they can Cut half an hour out of a 2k game and half an hour out of the set up and army selection, that would be a significant improvement to me.

          • OolonColluphid

            I can agree with that. The 4 phases need to go. Maybe fold the physic base into the shooting phase, than great rid of the dog fight phase all together.

          • rtheom

            I’d hesitate to really say they have good App support yet, but I agree with everything else you’ve said here.

          • JimOnMars

            Wait…a nerf to assault units? Do you play Tau?

          • OolonColluphid

            Raptors and IG.

          • rtheom

            Careful there. You’re treading dangerously close to Action Figure Wars if we start getting rid of basic troops. It’s already close enough as it is with tau, and we have one fully devoted to action figures anyway :: eyes Imperial Knights ::.

          • OolonColluphid

            Nah, I preferred the unusual troop configurations of Sixth edition. Was also more fluffy to not have buy any Tacticals and Scouts to field a Deathwing/Ravenwing army. Bikes as troops should be removed for everyone except Ravenwing.

          • rtheom

            Yeah, I thought the word “Assault” in front of them was nerf enough. Who knew?

      • Admiral Raptor

        Everything is better than 40k right now, and yet it’s still the biggest wargame on the market. It’ll be just fine after Age of the Emperor.

        • Andrew Long

          This is so so true.

        • OolonColluphid

          Nah. It’ll split the fanbase like Scrubmar did. The only good thing will be 30k, but it it’ll be to different for newer players to join up.

    • kobalt60

      Why stop there? simplify the rules, remove points, Get rid of dice rolls, build the army you want, and just push them all to the middle of the table, making ‘pew pew’ noises as you do

      • ZeeLobby

        Hell yeah! A game so easy my dog could play it. Please tell me they’ll double the prices as well. Then it would be perfect!

        • Now that’s the most awesome sarcastic reply of the day! 🙂

          • ZeeLobby

            Haha. I do it for you guys :D.

        • luke snell

          and yet they just dropped a pretty dope new boxed game in Prospero with some pretty incredible miniatures banking in at an attractive $3.20 per mini at full MFG pricing. on top of all of the starter sets they are offering at reasonable prices and I’d say GW is giving us exactly what we purport to want. I get that you are being sarcastic for the sake of the chuckle but I have seen your numerous comments on GW pricing time and again. and yes, any company in a niche market needs to be able to turn a profit to stay afloat and hopefully thrive, particularly in a public company (which I am not a fan of, but it’s the unfortunate context they have to operate in now.) perhaps it is time to give GW another chance 🙂

          • ZeeLobby

            It’s the total price to play that is discouraging. 3 books, starter plus hundreds of dollars of needed models, and suddenly you’re looking at 3/4 factions in alternative games. I know. I own 4 armies. And even though Id rarely buy new stuff anyway, new players who enter our local stores are just not interested in dropping entire paychecks to play a game. Escalation leagues, KT, etc. Are all options of course, but you’re still going to hit that price hike at some point. And many people would rather put the same up for several factions of something that honestly plays better.

            All because GW has some written rule that it’ll never reduce prices… I just think it’s crazy. Niche market it may be, but it’s no longer an empty one.

  • kobalt60

    For those who don’t have time to listen to the whole podcast
    “Are simultaneous rules releases for 30k and 40k a good thing?”
    yes

  • MechBattler

    Simplifying the game can only be a good thing. It’s such a clusterf**k right now what with endless formations, needing a briefcase full of rule books, and having to keep it all straight in your head.

    That’s why I play Knights.
    Mini-BRB, Codex, 5 models, one dice cube, templates, tape measure, DONE.
    It all fits in one box, it’s easy to keep track of, easy to set up, easy to put away. No fuss, no muss.

    • ZeeLobby

      It’s more a case of stop adding crap rather than simplifying the core rules.

      • MechBattler

        EEEEHHHH…..
        They could still stand to streamline and uncomplicate things a bit.

        They made a great entry level adaptation with Battle for Vedros. A monkey could play it. But how many kids who play that will actually move on to playing the main game when they realize how absurdly and unnecessarily complex it is?

        Us veterans can say it’s not so bad because we’re not starting from scratch. But what about the potential new players looking in from the other side of the bars? That’s what GW is constantly talking about – attracting new players and expanding the hobby. Yet they make their game more and more complex to learn, constantly raising the bar for the level of entry. Doesn’t make much sense at all.

        I can only hope 8th makes the game easier to learn and play. Or 40k will forever be the game that weird people play in the basement instead of the game that anyone can play that GW wants it to be.

        • ZeeLobby

          It might be my veteran blinders, but I started this game as a kid. After watching my cousin calculate out stats for gear on League of Legends (he’s in Middle School), I fail to see how kids wouldn’t be able to pick it up now. Very little has actually changed in the core rules over all these years.

          What I do see scaring kids away is the 32 available factions all of which can ally with eachother on 3 different levels, with lists being formed of detachments, formations and decurions, or unbound dataslates with different base rules. This is what’s made their game “more complex to learn” and has constantly raised that bar.

          Things were just much simpler when there were 12 factions, with their own rules, that couldn’t group up. It meant you learned your own faction through and through, and gained experience playing others. If I hear that someone is coming with a Space Marine army that could literally mean anything at this point. It could be a command squad and some bikes with 50 admech dudes, walkers and robots, or it could mean a ton of tactical squads with 400 pts of free transports. These are the issues with the game, not 2 very simple lookup tables, or pretty basic Universal Special Rules.

          • Andrew Long

            Agree. I really started my 40k habit with Second Edition (Rogue Trader was too bonkers) having come from the entry level Space Crusade. Second Ed was in many ways more complex than current 40k. I reckon kids – and lets face it, the kinds of kids who are attracted to GW – are generally easily gonna pick up even the most complex rule sets.

            The following rant got longer than I expected so in short, as with all board games, whilst they seem cool at the time expansions suck the life out of them, and you can’t put the genie back in the bottle.

            In my mind, the game-play is where 40k has been letting the side down of late – too long-winded and convoluted for what should be a fun game of ‘pew pew bang bang’. Where 7th ed 40k is coming apart is the sheer amount of documents one needs to source to throw down a combative army – exactly the same scenario as was the death throes of a number of GW products in the 90s.

            GW release so much product in different waves, tacking on piece after piece that the game simply ceases to be fun cause the players are now separated by what they can afford to bring and how quickly your wallet can adapt to the changing landscape.

            It’s happened before many times now. I find it’s usually rules expansions rather than army books that do it too. With Space Crusade and Hero Quest it was those expansions like Kellars Keep and that Dreadnought one. With Epic, it was the Mega Gargant and Imperator Titan set, killed the game dead. With 40k, the Dark Millenium Card set made that game a card addled chore. WFB 5th edition had the same card problem turning it into herohammer.

            I’m too old. Sigh.

          • ZeeLobby

            Hey. That all makes sense to me. I basically got on in 3rd and have been off and on since then. I do think, unlike the past, we currently have a massive deluge of overwhelming content. Previous games from GW did suffer from that one issue, but current 40K suffers from several and yet they continue to throw fuel onto the fire. I’m not sure if they’re just clearing the pipeline for 8th or what, but their actions don’t seem to mesh with the rumors that even internally they’ve come to realize how cumbersome it has become.

            The problem is after 5 years of allies and spammable formations I’m not sure how you bring in the reigns without pissing a ton of people off. I mean it has to be done, but I’m just not sure that a publicly traded company that has been chasing profits for years with continued loss in sales will take the risk. I REALLY wish they had remained private.

    • euansmith

      Sigmar style Warscrolls and an App would be a big help for 40k 😉

    • JJ

      Yep and it has nothing to do with the fact that just playing knights makes you immune to 90% of the weapons in the game? Simplification!

  • Andrew Thomas

    I don’t really care much about whether models intended for 30k are made useable in 40k. They’re hardly different games, compared to, say, 40k vs 8th ed Fantasy.