Traitor’s Hate: Cult of Destruction In the Crosshairs

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Howdy Heretics! Today we see if the CSM Cult of Destruction formation can cut the mustard!

Dean from Blog for The Blood God here with a new weekly review / Tactical article series for the formations found in the new Traitors Hate Chaos Space Marine Suppliment!

If you have any ideas / tactics you wish to contribute / discuss head over to my Facebook Page and shoot me a message! Without further adue lets get into the 5th installment!

Cult of Destruction

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Units:

1 – 3 warpsmiths

3 -5 units of Obliterators or Mutilators

Rules

Empyrionic Guidance Rituals – at the start of the movement phase each warpsmith can select a unit from this formation within 8″. Your Obliterators may fire twice in the shooting phase, or if they are Mutilators they can attack twice in the assault phase. It sounds epic until you read the last paragraph which states they must use a different weapon for each attack and it cannot be a weapon used in the previous turn.

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Loadouts:

First lets discuss the units, the warpsmith is the only one with loadout options, if you plan to run him with Obliterators i would not give him any upgrades, where as if you run him with Mutilators you may want to considder the Axe of Blind Fury.

As for Marks of Chaos, Obliterators benefit very little from the MoK and MoS so skip those, MoT is good but in my opinion MoN is the superior choice as it increases the instant death threshold making your Obliterators significantly more difficult to kill.

Now on Mutilators it is not quite as simple, the MoN is still a strong choice for the same reason as on Obliterators, however MoS and MoK are now viable options too. Personally I think MoK is also a strong choice as it increases the number of attacks you make which combined with this formation allowing you to attack twice significantly increases your damage output.

Only other thing to considder is make sure you take maxed out squad sizes to get the most out of the Warpsmith “tax” being that stock a warpsmith costs the same as 2 mutilators or 1.5 obliterators it is not cost effective to run small squads as the points you spend on the warpsmith would be better spent on more bodies.

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Thoughts:

So is this formation good? Hell yeah! I used this formation in my battle report series “The Blood Crusade” and it was extremely effective. I ran 3 squads of 3 Obliterators with a Warsmith for each. I only realistically see this working for Obliterators. Mutilators suffer from a significant weakness which I will explain below.

As for your Obliterators I see this best used as maxed out squads with the Warpsmith attached, this protects ol’ smithy from being targeted independently. The trick to making this work is positioning and combining weapons, as you have to target the same unit with both rounds of shooting you will want to ensure both weapons are effective against the target. So on turn 1 you might move forward and fire the Multi Melta and Lascannons at enemy armour then turn two move further forward and fire the assault cannon and twin linked plasma gun at some infantry or light armour. Turn 3 if you are still alive you move again so you should be in range to fire both heavy flamer and twin linked flamer at some infantry OR go back to the Multi Melta only this time combo it with twin linked melta guns.

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Weaknesses:

There are a couple flaws to look out for in this formation, first is that the Warpsmith must be alive and within 8″ of the other units for them to get the boost, and as he cannot deep strike with them that will often result in your Obliterators walking up the field ever so slowly.

Now Mutilators, wow this is a complex unit when taken in this formation. First the formation forbids using the same weapons that were used last turn and Mutilators cannot used the same weapons in two subsequent fight subphases! So assuming you declare a charge, in that first turn of combat you have 2 fight sub phases, in each fight subphase you have to use 2 different weapons,  meaning in the first round of combat you must use 4 different weapons. Mutilators only have 5 to choose from! Since you cannot use ANY of those weapons the following turn you essentially can only attack with the 1 weapon you didnt use in 1 fight subphase and then cannot attack at all in the next!

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Mutilators bring a pair of chainfists but I would avoid combat with walkers as you can only use them once out of the potential 4 rounds of attacks you make before you can use them again. Stick to charging infantry or MCs and use the Lightning Claws and Swords in the first fight subphase then mauls and chainfists in the second fight subphase

So what are your thoughts on this formation? Have i missed any fantastic uses? How would you equip them an what tactics would you use?

 

Chuck some comments below or join the conversation on Facebook. Lets show the false emperors lackies what the power of Chaos can do!

-Dean Sinnbeck

  • Skathrex

    As always a good read.

    1 little mistake I spotted is, I don’t think the Mutlitaors have it that bad (appart from beeing Mutilators), since the double attack only works in your turn. But they would still run out of Weapons for their attacks in the 2nd Round of combat in the Enemy turn.

    Apart from that, isn’t 9 Oblits with 3 Smits a bit of a point heavy investment? Can you give a bit more insight to your experience? (or upload that Black Crusade game against Huron 😉 )
    I like the Formation but I would run a Unit of 3 Oblits with a Warpsmith and 2 Units of 1 Oblit who are deepstriking, because I really like deepstriking Oblits.

    • The Rout

      Single DS Oblits are a pain in my armies hairy a**e! I run a very CC focused mounted army and i can’t count the amount of times those guys have appeared behind my thin grey line and broke open my transports leaving me no choice but to double back to handle them.

      Nice to hear a positive CSM comment too 🙂

      • Skathrex

        I am mostly positiv, but it gets exhausting here really fast^^

        And yeah single oblits are exactly that, very good distraction Units, because they dont warrant any form of Attention (shooting or melee), but are pretty dangerous for their points.

  • The Rout

    i would hope that both obliterators and mutilators get a points reduction come codex time. I’d also hope the unit size changes from 3-6 similar to TWC and centurions. That would make this formation a lot more useful.

    • Skathrex

      I hope Mutilators get a general rework, atm they are in a very odd spot, maybe split Oblits for long range support and Mutilators for Short-Range/CC with them being able to morph flamers, Melters and such.

      • Karru

        All they really need to do for the Mutilators is give them the ability to assault out of reserves, on top of all the other buffs they really need like more Attacks/better survivability/lower price. I know it is more or less just an “easy fix” type of deal, but that’s the only way I see them getting use for the role they were made.

        If they decide to take away the short range weapons of the Obliterators, we risk the possibility of seeing neither or just severely weakening Obliterators while Mutilators just don’t get played.

        • Skathrex

          May be true, the short weapons thing was just an idea. I just think they need a rework in general, because we have so many elite Melee Units (in theory). That slot is just filled with Chosen, Zerkers, Possessed, Terminators etc.

          • Charon

            They should not have been created in the first place. There is little to make them different from terminators, the weapon swap is not even useful most of the time and their price point is way to high. I really don’t know why they considered it a good idea to take malee weapons away from obliterators and create another generic melee unit.

          • Skathrex

            Maybe because of Centurions? They have 2 iterations too?

          • Charon

            Obliterators/Mutliators were first.

          • Karru

            Indeed, Mutilators became a thing in the start of 6th while Centurions became a thing around half way trough.

          • Skathrex

            Maybe they were in planing?
            Or it was just an additional way to nerf them / cut some of their versatility?

            Honestly I have no clue. many Units were hit with the nerfhammer for no obvious reason (Defiler, Oblits, Possessed etc.)

        • Knight_of_Infinite_Resignation

          make them 45 points and able to choose whichever weapons whenever. Give them and Oblits shrouded when they deepstrike. Charging from DS seems too much, but they need help to survive when they drop and stand around for a turn.

          • Karru

            The problem then comes with the fact that the opponent can just counter charge them or just move away and once again they are “useless”.

          • Knight_of_Infinite_Resignation

            Not found their slowness an issue. If he move his heavy weapons, move off an objective, moves closer to your other asssult units that is mission accomplished. Any time you dictate where your opponent moves is good. If he countercharges then you are in melee, also good!

    • LordKrungharr

      The warpsmith has a 2+ armor save already and can take aura of dark glory (but not a Sigil). He really needs a bike to keep up with maulerfiends! Can’t have a jump pack because the evil servo arms are attached to his back.

      • The Rout

        Maybe just an artifact of some description that allows him to DS then? Not being able to means this formation has to foot-slog which is less than ideal. Could always take drop pods i guess…. sorry, i know that was in bad taste :p

        • Knight_of_Infinite_Resignation

          or a dreadclaw for 50 points made of plastic… That would actually solve all of chaos’s problems.

          • Charon

            Not all as they are only available to the most basic troops but I agree we need more options. Rhino vs Rhino, Drop Pod, Razorback is a bit poor.

          • Knight_of_Infinite_Resignation

            obviously make them a dedicated transport for all infantry units as Drop Pods are.

          • The Rout

            50 points might be a bit cheap considering it has a flamer and vector strike. Maybe 50 points and make the flamer an optional extra?

          • Knight_of_Infinite_Resignation

            To be honest if it didnt eat its passengers it would be useable even at 100. Proxied it once, it ate the 160 point Ferrum Infernus dread it was carrying…

          • The Rout

            Wow, just wow. Should only be able to eat infantry models really. Or at worst cause a S5 wound (hitting the rear armour similar to superheavy explosion) to be viable.

          • Knight_of_Infinite_Resignation

            Dreadclaw has daemonic possession, so 1 in 6 chance of eating a randomly determined model that is inside.

  • Knight_of_Infinite_Resignation

    I used this in my last game. I gave the warsmith a combi melta, so the squad can put out an epic 8 melta shots in one turn! The squad inevitably ends up in combat so some sort of invulnerable save on þe warsmith might be useful, since he is forced to challenge and cannot LOS in a challenge. I had the warsmith as my warlord and nearly lost him in combat, if you are doing the same best give him the Sigil.

    If you have the points then why not go with multiple warsmith+oblit trio units. If not then a couple of solo oblits or even solo mutilators dropped into þe enemy backfield is cheap and effective as a disruption unit. Obviously avoid HtH with anything that has a Dreadnought close combat weapon.

    I think this formation works well in an army with lots of other Armour2 units such as objective secured terminators from the Warband formation (the terminator formation itself is rubbish), or a lot of vehicles/Daemon Engines as you’ll benefit from target saturation.

    For fluffy play three mutilators and a warsmith in a land raider, attacking twice, would be hilarious.

    Note that against vehicles the mutilators power maul is quite good, to combine with the chainfists. S6 attacks can glance or penetrate most vehicles in the game.

    Mark of Nurgle has to be the best mark, even for the mutilator/land raider combo, protecting from instant death is better than hitting first or hitting more.

    • Skathrex

      While I generally agree, I think you have 1-2 rules errors in your list.
      The Warpsmith has a Melter, so no need to give him a Combi one and sadly Mutilators out of a LR don’t work that way because the Warpsmith can’t buff them since they are embarked.

      • Knight_of_Infinite_Resignation

        the warsmith can fire both his combi melta and the melta gun that is part of his mechadendrites in any turn, hence he adds two shots to the six melta shots the oblits can fire.

        I see you are right about the warsmith and mutilators in a land raider. Since his power works at the start of the movement phase. Oh well, another excellently well thought out and playtested rule from GW…

        • Skathrex

          He can? does he have a special rule that allows him to fire 2 weapons in the shooting phase?
          Not sure, haven’t played one yet.

        • It’s sad that the embarked Warpsmith issue nerfs the current best way to use mutilators :/

          • Knight_of_Infinite_Resignation

            they could have easily fixed them with this release if they’d just thought about it and playtested it. Looks like the intern was assigned to write this book.

          • Their whole approach to models embarked in transports is a bad rules direction if you ask me

          • Knight_of_Infinite_Resignation

            IMO you should be able to use powers and abilities that affect yourself/your own squad or the vehicle while embarked.

    • Sure

      Warpsmith can’t take the Sigil, you have to settle for the Aura. It’s annoying. Unless there was an faq/errata I missed (no special issue wargear for warpsmith)

      • Knight_of_Infinite_Resignation

        oh yeah, true, didn’t have the book with me to check. Stupid GW. Makes me much less likely to take this formation, since he has to challenge and yet is very fragile. Could advance him in a unit of cultists behind the oblits so he doesn’t get involved in any combats, or add a cheap character like a Chaos Lord from the warband formation to tank challenges… Not ideal, but I guess at least the Lord would make the unit fearless. Now this one unit is close to the cost of a Knight Gallant, and I know which would most likely be effective 🙁

  • Latro_the_Zombie

    For 100pts more than 3 obilts and a WS you can have a knight with 2 gatling cannons, 24 s6 ap3 rending shots everyturn,,,,

    thats what i think of this formation.

    • The Rout

      We got 5 comments before the haters arrived, hell i’ll call that a win :p

      • Charon

        You really need to look up in a dictionary what hate means.
        He is right about the price point and that there are more effective units available.
        If that does not matter in your meta cause everybody plays my little pony style of “oh it sparkles, I take it” fine. But do not force your view on other people.
        A polished turd is still a turd.

        • Skathrex

          You are kinda doing the same, or at least your tone is very condecending.

          The original poster is not wrong, but than again you just could play eldar.
          If I don’t want to take a knight is the same argument as I don’t want to take Eldar.
          And just because it isn’t a Knight, doesn’t mean its a turd imo

          • Charon

            But it does mean it is a weak option compared to others at the same price point.
            There is no use in sugarcoating it.
            Yes for some people it might be enough (the same as for some people a car going 30 km/h is enough for their once in a week groceries) but that still does not mean it is “good”

          • Skathrex

            Well that is what I meant with the other point.
            The question is always what do you compare it too.
            If I play it an a meta with super heavys, or just 1 SH (which is all about power) than logically take a Knight first, but then again, why not play Eldar to begin with (again when its all about power). If you limit yourself to CSM, why not Limit yourself to no SH?

            Right know we are looking at CSM for what is good in low tier or mid tier games, because CSM just can’t compete.
            So if you play some comp system where a SH gets heavily penalized, maybe take the Formation (or if you play with only 1 Detachment, etc.)

          • Charon

            Probably because you like the minis more? Any army should be able to field strong builds, regardless of faction.
            Actually CSM can’t compete because we only get turd formations and some people still celebrate them. Which is ok in their games, but it sends a wrong message. It basically says “yes heap more crap on us we love it anyways” Imageine a loyalist player getting the same treatment. These guys already cry when they dont get free stuff every month.’
            Even in a heavily comped system it is better to take something else. Obliterators are not very good in the first place, the warpsmith is an unwarranted and useless tax and the special ability doesnt do a lof for all the prequisites

          • ZeeLobby

            Don’t try. You’re just a complaining chaos player. Don’t you know you’re just supposed to be happy with what you’re given and not desire more! Geeze!

          • Skathrex

            Didn’t you just lecture the Rout on beeing condescending, and here you are beeing condescending?
            We have diffrent views, just don’t be a dick about it

          • ZeeLobby

            I’m just highlighting the continued response to those who desire a change for the better for CSMs. It wasn’t directed at anyone in particular other than Charon, sarcastically reinforcing his fight for the good fight.

            I’m sorry if that offended you. It wasn’t meant to be condescending to you personally. If I wanted to do that I’d directly respond to you.

          • Skathrex

            Well, imo your fighting the bad fight, because you a) are a hypocrite and condecending towards those with a postiv attitude and b) as I just wrote above. If you can’t see that something is wrong with Chaos, you can’t be helped. Stating the obvious is not helping.
            Trying to maintain the fun (and the CSM crowd), while hoping for something more postive.
            But I know where you coming from. Your argument is, that when we do not adress the problems, they wont go away. And stating that something is good will give the wrong impression.
            While thats not entirly wrong, that bad got stated so much, that the people who try to defend anything at all about Chaos are very defensive, because they get bombarded with negativity. I often feel like Lotr where Rohan is in Minastirid defending from the Orcs.
            If GW didn’t catch the drift they won’t. I don’t know a single platform where Chaos has a postiv attitude when it comes to rules.

          • ZeeLobby

            I never respond to those with a positive attitude negatively. I may offer reasons as to why I think they’re sugar coating a poor choice, but that’s just part of the discussion. I do respond to those who mock people with a negative opinion just because their opinion is negative. I think it’s just a crazy thing to do. The OP didn’t pick a positive post and try to bring it down. He just posted his opinion and was labeled a hater for it (which was a evidently a joke, but probably a poor one considering the attachment players have to their factions, and how long CSM has been in the dives). Charon was simply reinforcing his shared opinion with the OP. I was just making a poor joke that he shouldn’t try because someone who gets on someone for simply being negative, probably can’t be reasoned with.

            All that said, hope and positivity can only go so far. I was hopeful and positive for the last 2 CSM codexes, after that I just assumed Wed get shafted with mediocre rules, and GW just reinforced that. I think a lot of people feel this way. And I guess people are just different. Regardless of whether I think GW is listening or not, I’ll never just stop voicing my desire for change, and accept fate. I know that rubs people the wrong way, but it’d be simply amazing if CSM could roll with the big boys again.

          • Skathrex

            Well you criticized “The Routs”, lets call it joke for beeing condescending and then you posted a joke of the same caliber, which in my book makes you a hypocrite.
            But I didn’t mean you respond negativly to positiv comments. I would call you a realist with a tendencie to be a bit depressed/ worn out.

            And I can imagine that it gets tiresome, thats why its important to stay realistic, BUT focus on the positiv, and not loose the fun (my opinion).

          • ZeeLobby

            Haha. It may shock you to know that I’m actually a very positive person (my wife is the pessimist). I’ve just been trounced so many times trying to take a pure CSM force that it’s just lost a lot of its fun. It’s definitely the meta I currently live in, but I don’t think I could justify moving purely to change my toy soldier fighting meta.

            It all just stems from this dream that one day GW will play test and balance it’s gaming systems. I love the universe. Love the models. And have invested heavily in both. Even worst, back when I started the playing field wasn’t level, but it also wasn’t nearly as fractured as it is today. Compare it to other systems where you can win with almost any faction, and there’s just a lot to be desired.

          • Skathrex

            I didn’t mean you in general (because I don’t know you) I meant your attitude towards 40k.
            I am a very postive person too (wife is also the pessimist, sensing a theme here).
            I starte in 3-4th and made a break through 5th and most of 6th. Maybe thats why I can still remain postiv towards GW and Chaos.
            Maybe I will loose that in the next 2 years, but I hope not.
            Being positiv is the best way to aproach a lot of things imo thats why I want to keep it that way, and maybe thats why I am more enthusiastic towards everthing CSM throws my way, because I used to play Sisters too, and there I lost all hope.

          • ZeeLobby

            Haha. I think thered be a lot less fights back and forth if we all just knew each other’s gaming history at least. 6th and 7th edition has been a rocky road of despair for the majority of my factions. Dark Eldar were FINALLY redone and got the best flavored codex ever. They were top tier and then high middle for a bit. Then they got hit massively hard by their next book and the new editions. They’re just straight dismal right now. My Orks were strong in 5th even without the abuse of wound allocations. Now they rarely win a game. And CSM, as discussed, has been a steady decline and constant whipping boy of their imperial counterparts.

            It’s pretty clear why I’m so messed up. Haha.

          • Skathrex

            Well I sold my Tau, because it was really boring to play and most casual players don’t even want to fight Tau.
            My Sister got boring with always the same Units.
            I started DE recently and I am really postiv at the moment, because the look great, are fun to play and imo are way better than CSM (or my opponents just don’t know what to do against them).
            Also I am a Khorne player, so I got KDK which made me happy for quite some time.

          • Latro_the_Zombie
          • ZeeLobby

            LOL. Look what you’ve done!

          • Skathrex

            Thats exactly my point. Maybe because he doesn’t want to play a knight. Or Oblits fit his style/ Fluff of play.
            Its the same argument. If you go for Powerlvl, you should obviously play Eldar.
            Is that good? Hell no!
            But if you limit yourself to one army, whats the problem with saying ” I don’t want to play a Knight”.
            Everytime Goatboy posts a List with a Knight people complain that he only slaps a Knight on anything + Spam.
            But if you try to leave the Knight out, everything will be compared to that Knight.
            Its a bit like the “Dies to Removal” argument in MTG.
            Yes the Knight is better, but will the Knight make Chaos competetive? Nope! So whats left is the lower lvls of play (from the power standpoint), and the discussion in these enviroments.

            Don’t get me wrong, there is plenty to complain about, but the original comment didn’t add anything to a discussion. Its just stated an obvious but irrelevant fact.
            He could have written Cabal is better, which is also true but irrelevant. And again the next step is Eldar are better.

            I just don’t like to go onesided in arguments. I usually argue the counterpoint, becaust thats what leads to interesting discussions. But with all the negativity here (and the state of Chaos) I always default on trying to see the positiv, because anyone can see the negative.

          • Charon

            Because it makes any comparison or rating a complete waste of space. If you are hell bend on using a subpar formation anyways you do not need how good/bad it is because it does not matter anyways. No reason to sell it or be positive about it as he picks the turd because he likes the turd.

          • Skathrex

            And you play the turd (CSM).
            If you go for powerlvl, CSM is the wrong place for you.
            Sadly there is no place for competetive CSM at the Moment.
            The question is always, what to you want?
            The best of the best? Eldar
            The best of CSM? Knights + Cabal+ Hounds
            Casual games with CSM? Oblits are not bad

            All I am saying is that The best of CSM is a thing that I don’t strive for atm (because of the state of CSM), and I don’t think is necessary to discuss atm. But if you wanna bring a Knife to a gunfight, be my guest.

          • Charon

            You can bring CSM to a table and still rate units from useless to very good. The Maulerfiend or Spawn are an example of this, while mutilators are on the other side of the scale.
            You do not need to rate them in any way in a casual game. If you start rating them you acknowledge there is some kind of competition going on.
            If you want to bring a horde of mutilators, fine. They are bad but maybe you like them. But that doesn’t make them objectively good.
            Your Eldar comparison is quite off as these comparisons are in Codex comparisons. Do I find anything in my army that is better for the given points or not?

          • Skathrex

            The comparison is not really of, just an exageration.
            Why do you limit yourself to this one Codex? Because you like it. Because of the Fluff, the look, etc. Thats not diffrent from taking the Knight out of the equasion.
            You need some rating too, because Casual games need a sort of balance too. But in these enviroments (at least to my experience) SH are less often seen, and when seen are often announced so the opponent can prepare.
            My main point is that the Scales differ. For competetive there are like 4 or 5 points.
            0 crap
            1 mostly crap, but may hav situations where its good
            2 decent, but lacks some aspects
            3 good (for certain tasks, acceptable as tax)
            4 very good (best in slot)
            5 good tier (auto include, spam)

            While the scale for casual games is much broader due to there being less of the top Units and more of the bad midtier Units. For me its often take some of the good, so i can compensate for some of the bad (which I want to bring for whatever reason).
            And this Formation is somewhat in the middle.
            But the main problem (the oblits, not the formation) got adressed somewhere else in here.

          • ZeeLobby

            There’s a fairly large segment of casual competitives. They want to play that scenario with the awesome narrative, but they want to win while they do it. It’s those conflicting ideals which usually leads to praise of a competitively mediocre choice. Not saying it’s a bad thing, but it can be a head scratcher.

          • Skathrex

            Its not optimal. We would love a perfectly balanced system what we live with what we have.
            Mostly it uses a lot of communication and a bit knowing your opponent.

          • euansmith

            “… but than again you just could play eldar. ”

            Ouch! 😀

        • The Rout

          I think it would be difficult to find anything that compares to a knight from a points to power perspective. And what view did i force exactly? Do you even read comments before just jumping to anger and derision?

          The only view i could be accused of “forcing” is the general fatigue with the constant complaining that accompanies every thread which im sure many here would agree with.

          Is it better than the obliterator/ mutilator formation you had before? or the one in another codex? Oh there isnt one of them… might be why there’s an article reviewing this one and how to use it huh?

          • ZeeLobby

            You were basically being condescending to someone who offered a better suggestion that might not align with your perspective. You obviously can’t force anyone to do anything via internet comment sections. But it wasn’t really necessary.

          • The Rout

            I really wasn’t being condescending nor was i labelling. Apparently what i can “force” via an internet comment is a massive overreaction to (an albeit not particularly funny) joke. We’re talking about our toy soldiers, maybe try to keep that in mind before taking offence.

          • ZeeLobby

            I didn’t get offended. I just offered an explanation for why he responded the way he did. And made a personal commentary about why negative comments are OK.

          • Charon

            Fire Raptors, Soul Grinders, Cabal,… All are way more effective while costing less.

            Yes I read the comments. This one one guys pointing out the formation is not good (which it truly is not) just to read the next post by you commenting how this guy is a hater (just because he doesnt like the polished turd). So… how is this not judgemental.

            Thats your argument? Better drink piss before you get nothing? Really?

            And the fun thin is: Indeed not taking the formation is way better than taking the formation as it leaves a lot of points for more useful units without paying a tax.

          • The Rout

            It wasn’t intended as judgemental it was intended as a joke, one that you’ve taken far far too seriously and personally. You’ll notice i didn’t use any negative language and added the universal emoji for i am joking. You may also notice that the person i replied to hasn’t jumped to these accusations and i like to think that because he took the comment as it was intended.

            And i think the formation will be fine, if/ when the units get the much needed points reduction when the new dex comes around. Lets be honest that is the problem with it, the rules are decent it just costs too much in points. that’s because of the codex not the formation itself.

          • ZeeLobby

            Let’s be honest. It was a joke with a dig. And he most likely hasn’t responded because most commentators actually don’t respond. Its usually a one/two and done.

            But I agree, reworking of points in the next codex update would solve a lot of issues with CSM. Maybe finally ending the era of more expensive costs for equally or less effective units then their imperial counterparts.

          • The Rout

            We can agree on that at least. I think this is why i end up clashing with a few users on here. I like a lot of the formations in traitors hate (and am envious of a few) but they receive so much hate in these comments. People are entitled to their opinion of course but then so am I. I understand the CSM Codex needs an update about a year ago but people don’t seem to distinguish between bad formations and bad units. Acting twice is definitely a good thing, just need to make sure the units are correct in terms of points.

          • ZeeLobby

            Yeah. Just out of curiosity how long have you played CSM? I think that has a lot to do with it (not saying short vs long term is bad) but length of play drives a lot of the positivity/negativity in these sections. People get kicked for wanting CSM 3.5 back, but it was a time when CSM could top dog it and the faction had a lot of flavor. To those people, there’s only been a gradual slide in CSM effectiveness and options. Traitors Hate was a definite bump, but for those people it’s like a pebble at the base of a hill.

            Now if you joined after that period, things have been pretty consistent with some ups (lash princes) and downs (latest codex) but its definitely a perspective with a different starting point.

            I just think that’s where a lot of this good vs bad/positive vs negative conflict arrives. There are also those who are more or less attached. Personally I’d be fine with even just a small bump in power level, but added legion specific rules and flavor. I would have killed if KDK wasn’t a stand alone, and if, for example, alpha legion got its own “legion tactics”. There’s just been so many places where GW had the opportunity and just straight up ignored it.

          • The Rout

            I don’t play CSM i play against them a lot (like 50% of my games) and i do envy some of the formations but only very few of the units. One of them units is obliterators though.

            I do agree with the length of play affecting sentiment though. Its just a shame that the longer someone plays the more negatives they notice, would be nice if it was the other way round. I read the 3.5 codex the other day, i can see why people miss it because it allowed a lot of customisation but it was also seemed pretty OP but it may not have been back then for all i know as i only started at the beginning of 5ed

            I really hope the codex fixes a lot of these issues because its not particularly fun to spend 50% of my games and roughly 100% of my internet reading hearing people be angry (even if it is justified). It’s also no fun to stomp my CSM friend over and over because neither of our prides would allow me to “go easy on him”.

            For context i play SW, and i mean SW not SW and friends. The only none codex thing i use is my Mastodon and i could find almost as many ways my codex and my formations suck in comparison to the vanilla and angels dexes. Just to be clear i mean that to be read as empathy, not a dig.

          • ZeeLobby

            No. I got you. And I don’t think it’s that the longer you play the more negatives you notice. It’s more the longer you play the more inconsistencies GW throws in driving you to be negative. Itd be easier to stay positive if they just approached their factions equally. But it’s hard to do so when imperials get 8 new toys, and your faction gets broken versions. When DE goes from being un-updated, to one of the best codexes ever (good power level, great fluff, lots of character) to one of the worst codexes in the game. When SM get new formations and psychic powers on top of their already solid units, and CSM get a copy and paste on top of inferior ones. Etc.

          • Skathrex

            And there goes my respect for you…dirty dirty SW 😛

            The matchup has the huge problem that SW and CSM are Melee and SW can do everything better when it comes to melee.

          • The Rout

            You had respect before? 😀

            And yeah that is the crux of the problem. When CC happens the CSM kind of…. evaporate. We’re currently trailing allowing him to use cataphracti armour, when used with tzeentch it give him a 3up invun which will help a bit but that points cost is brutal!

            To be fair though modern wolves own anyone in CC thanks to wulfen and TWC (but mainly wulfen)

          • Skathrex

            Wulfen are like Skyhammer. They shoulnd’t exist. Or at least not their buff.
            And TWC have just to many options.
            But SW are a good example for the loyal>chaos problem. Compared to the deticated Melee Chaos part (Khorne) you can see how everything that went wrong with Chaos, works for SW.

          • The Rout

            Yeah the buff is the broken bit, that and they cost about 15 points less than they should. Personally i would have made them 45 points base without the buff. Then i’d have made a wulfen priest with the buff. Currently the footprint of that buff with the 35 i own is basically the entire board. I’d also have taken away ATSKNF because the wulfen are as old as CSM and have been in the warp even longer than most of them so have no right benefiting from standard marine rules.

            I think Chaos can look at the SW dex and Sons of Russ supplement for clues as to what they’ll get because since 5th they have had a lot of similarities. CCW for tacticals, more attacks than vanilla, we used to both have mounts, generally CC focused etc. I’ve always thought of SW as the imperial chaos marines but maybe that’s just me? I’m also hoping the great company formations mirror the legion formations CSM need.

            But don’t say they shouldn’t exist, i bought my SW army 7 years ago specifically to play 13th Company / wulfen, love those hairy B******s!

          • Charon

            The main point is the traitors hat formations could have been good without a codex update.
            Scatter reduced by D6 and no disordered charge? There you go suddenly raptors talon is good. Still not as good as skyhammer but here you go.
            Possessed get to use CS rules? Good formation!
            Obliterators are not forced to shoot the same target? Solved.
            Bloodrain can be activated at the end of your melee phase? Purrrrrfect.
            The list goes on. It is little things that prevent these formations from beeing decent. Not even talking about formation with a defunct formation bonus (like lost and the damned or the drakes)

          • ZeeLobby

            The only thing I can assume is that for some reason they write the good version, and then think, wait, it’s too good, let’s throw a negative in there. But for some reason when doing the loyalist side, that self doubt never arises. Maybe it’s a Chaos thing, lol.

          • Skathrex

            I have to agree to a point. The TH Formations could be as broken as the other Formations to make them good, but then what happens IF we get a codex update. suddenly we have broken Formations.

          • Charon

            IF the ruleset stays the same
            IF supplements are still valid
            IF the codex gets buffed

            That is a lot of IFs. And even then, loyalist formations are still better as they lack the “balancing” drawbacks.

          • Skathrex

            To be honest, I don’t think they will be usable for the next codex, and I don’t hope so, because I would like GW to maybe delete some formations with codex updates.
            This gets me to the next point. Yes the other formations may be stronger, but I find that the TH ones (some) are better designed, not just free advantages, but always a negative with the postitve.

          • Charon

            The issue with the “negative” of these formations is, that they outweight the benefits. Sometimes to a point where using CAD is in fact the better option.
            Most of these formations already came with a tax, there was no need for the drawbacks as now they outweight the benefits.

          • Skathrex

            Well thats your opinion, Warband, Raptor Talon, Maelstrom of Gore, the 2 Warpsmith formations that aren’t Fist of the Gods, all finde with me.

    • Skathrex

      Jeske is that you?

      Do Eldar face the same? That everything gets compared to a Wraithknight etc.?

      Just take in addition, to one.

    • Runefyre

      If you’re not allowed to bring knights…. it doesn’t matter.
      CoD is actually quite capable of bringing down a single knight, bringing back more than it’s points.

      But I can see were you’re coming from (from a consistent damage output scenario).

      Warpsmiths (and apostles really) need only be 70 points imo.

      • ZeeLobby

        Especially since they can be challenged out so easily. Man that’s a rule that really needs to go, or the secondary HQs need a reduced price or better cc options. It really kills a lot of fun combos, like tarpitting cultists.

    • Karru

      For me, the only real strength of this formation comes from the fact that you can spam small units of Obliterators, but you are still right regarding the effectiveness.

    • Having used the dual gat knight a lot, I’m not that impressed by it

  • Painjunky

    This is not a good formation. The tax is WAY too high.
    Now if it was only 2 units of oblits and the warpsmith was not hideously over priced and could take a bike then maybe.

    Its another CSM fail i’m afraid.

    • Skathrex

      I agree that the WS is to expensiv, but aren’t oblits one of the better Units we have?

      And 1 WS doubles the dmg output of the Oblits (if they are 3) or is close to doubling it.

      I acutally think that is one of the Formations with a very low tax.

      • Charon

        They were one of the better units in 3rd to 5th. 6th reduced their T, took away half of their weapons (they were mutilators and obliterators combined), took away “fearless and increased the points.
        Also compare this to a grav cent (which Space marines also not used to have).

        The tax is high. The double damage is most often completely wasted and thanks to the restrictions not even reliable.

        • Skathrex

          I see, I made quite a pose and in 3-4th Oblits where vastly superior.
          But I don’t think they are that bad to this day.
          While I agree they are overnerfed, and like the rest of CSM need an update.

          But the Tax is still not high. It limits their use somewhat, because you have to target something that both weapons can hurt, but Oblits cost 210 Points and for 100 Points you get double the firepower.
          Sure they are not good as Backfield campers, but they never were imo. If you go Midfield with them you will either have a very good board presence or enough weapons to choose from.

          • Charon

            Thats the point. You are sitting here with 310 points (and that is assuming no marks and min squads which do not benefit at all) that are not even able to pop a cheaper landraider reliably. You further advance with T4 2+ units that nowadays get shredded by any weapon available. That is not a good board presence as they do not pose a real threat to expensive units (invul or high armor) and are far to expensive themselves to be set on horde clearing. That 310 points lets me get a Helbrute formation (which are not good either) that deepstrikes and actually creates some space on the table.

          • Skathrex

            Well, I had way better experience with Oblits than with Helbrutes, even the Murderpack (the deep striking one).

            But The Rout adressed this point perfectly. The problem is with the old Unit not the Formation.
            Obviously you would run them MoN most of the time so 328 (I think).
            Which can’t hold a center alone, but 2 of these could. And a Knight wouln’t kill a Landraider reliably too. But the Oblits would be a decent thread to everything in 24″ because of their versatility.

          • Karru

            To me, the real threat of this formation comes from the fact that you can spam small units of Oblitetators. GW seems to encourage that these days.

            Even units of 1-2, Obliterators are extremely annoying. Even if they only have 2 wounds and 2+ save, when there is 3-4 different targets to shoot at that only have said amount of wounds to get rid off, it will be relatively hard decision to waste shots at them. Then those said units can pop a tank or fire Plasma Cannons at the more heavily armoured units and even soak up Overwatch.

            Even then though, this formation isn’t exactly “good”. It’s mediocre at best. The WS really brings it down hard, due to the price and lack of survivability.

          • Skathrex

            yeah if you want to bring many small Units the WS really hurts.
            personally I will run a Unit of 3 Oblits, to counteract the tax, or to have one Unit that is “worth” it. and 2 Units of 1 for excactly that purpose. (hmm maybe i can take up to 4 Units of 1).

      • ZeeLobby

        Oblits are pretty lackluster these days. They were effective back when you could lash units into piles and plasma blast them.

      • euansmith

        I’d have thought that the GW Marketing Department would have been better served saying, “Field three full strength Obliterator/Mutilator squads and gain a free Warpsmith with the option to add up to two more Warpsmiths”.

        That could encourage more mini sales, and, by making the unit tax a financial one, could benefit both CSM players and GW Sales.

        • ZeeLobby

          Lol. Last thing we want is to let GW know that no-points-cost minis are OK. Shhhhhh 😀

        • Nyyppä

          Even if they added the 3 warpsmiths for free it would be bad. Oblits have to DS to be effective and WS can not.

          • euansmith

            Maybe they could give the Warpsmiths no-scatter bubbles for their pets.

          • Nyyppä

            That would help assuming that it would work even if the WS could DS and was attached to the unit that gets the bonus on top of having the buble to help everyone else who is friendly.

      • Painjunky

        Nah, at 76pts for MoN which you HAVE to take as GW nerfed them down to T4 because f-ck chaos, they are about 20pts too expensive. Even at T5 they are not hard to kill.

        The warpsmith is 110pts of pure tax. he has to challenge so you may waste even more pts to get him an invuln save.

        The special rule with its limitations is not worth all this tax.

        • Skathrex

          True they might be too expensive, but so is nearly everything we have. Its still one of the better Units, after Mauler, Sorcs and Spawn of course. (oh yeah and Knights).

          The Warpsmith is the one giving the double shooting so I think in a 3 Oblit Unit he gets his points back, because of that.

          Furthermore I don’t think the WS is really that bad in a Challange (especially when you give him Nurgle too).
          He still has a 2+ Armor which is tough to crack for everything short of a SM HQ or MC

  • Nyyppä

    This would be ok if the ability to double tap was built in to the units instead of needing the otherwise pretty pointless warpsmith. I mean, gravturions with….I don’t know, what’s really bad for SM….full vanguard squad that is added to the turions. GW would go bankrupt in couple of years after that. Yet it’s ok to force these bad units on some factions. I’d call it bias…

  • SilentPony

    Poor mutilators. They seem like such a cool and earnest unit, yet they never preform well enough. Like that one kid in pewee soccer who thought he was good, but really wasn’t.

  • nurglitch

    Lack of discussion of the Obliterators and Mutilators being Daemons is a problem.

    • Nyyppä

      Does that help them to DS on the back lines of the opposing force and at the same time keep them within 8″ of the WS while doing that?

      • nurglitch

        It does. They can use allied Chaos Daemon icons of chaos to reduce their DS scatter to D6″ and use Chaos Daemon instruments of chaos for what is essentially a re-roll on their reserve rolls.

        • Nyyppä

          True. Then again not everyone plays all of the chaos factions and expecting them to is not very reasonable.
          How is the warp smith supposed to keep up though? The whole point of this formation is to be able to shoot twice with the oblits.

          • nurglitch

            The formation enables one unit of Obliterators to shoot twice if a Warpsmith picks it as the target for Empyrionic Guidance Rituals. The formation also enables the player to between 3 and 5 units of Obliterators, which can be taken as single-model units.

          • Nyyppä

            True. That does not answer my question though.

          • nurglitch

            Okay.

          • Nyyppä

            Which was: How is the warp smith supposed to keep up though?

          • nurglitch

            Sorry, I thought that was a rhetorical question.

          • Nyyppä

            Not really. I know the answer as far as I have the info available but since I do not play CSM there might be something I’m missing. The whole point of the formation after all is to have the oblits shoot twice. If you just want to spam the oblits it’s cheaper to do that with CADs than with the BC detachment.

          • nurglitch

            Oh, I thought I had made it clear that being able to shoot twice is a situational rule dependent on both the number and proximity of the Warpsmiths bought as part of the formation, while the formation also enabled an MSU drop of Obliterators.

            I don’t think it is cheaper to go for the two CADs that you would need to field the five max-min’d Obliterator units since those would require an additional two HQ and four Troops, rather than a single Warpsmith. If you’re going for that configuration I think a player would be better off investing in Chaos Daemon allies. Indeed, the formation might be good allies for Chaos Daemons.

          • Nyyppä

            The way I look at this is that you have the core and then you get extras. I never understood the idea of taking parts of detachments (in this case the BC) as separate units. That’s pretty much the definition of cherry picking in the context of the game. To me that’s against the spirit of the game.

            To each his/her own though.

  • sethmo

    Running this formation is suicide with all the grav running around. A crappy little drop pod of marines would wreck all this.