40K: Mm, That’s Some Tasty Crow GW Served Me!

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I said GW would never give CSMs the love they needed. Can I have seconds?

Traitor Legions: Style Is In Again

Going back on my articles list, you will find more than a few in which I riff on Games Workshop’s design philosophy, grievous need to update armies, and especially, the need make Chaos factions more flavorful and unique. They were usually capped with a cynical “Yeah, like that’s EVER gonna happen, amirite?” comment. So take all of this as the words of someone who could have built a house out of grots if I had gotten one model each time someone accused me of being a GW Hater.

This me having my mouth rightfully shut and just nodding in awe.

60030102014_traitorlegionscodexstdedeng01

Good Show, GW. Good Show

Traitor Legions, combined with Wrath of Magnus, is exactly what I wanted. What I had been pleading for all these  years. No snarky asides or caveats here. It came late but I’m glad it’s here, and I really, really hope it’s a trend. Not just for Chaos but the game.

My hat is off, and my wallet is open again.

I love how they used an existing and fluffy element, the Veterans of the Long War rule, to branch and work out the different effects. Other people over the years had already hinted that this was the way to go, but I don’t mind it in the least. Good ideas are good no matter if you thought of them yourself or expanded on another’s concept (this is also known as the Blizzard Games Axiom). There are some rules that seem to clash or repeat (Berserkers and Plague marines feel rather overpriced compared to basic Legions CSMS that will get the bulk of the same rules or more for far, FAR less points!) but I trust those will be smoothed out in FAQs or a new book. That long-demanded basic Chaos Marine rulebook update just got a lot less urgent.

 

hopeNope, Max. Sometimes it actually isn’t.

It’s not even important right now if this will put CSM on a power level akin to Eldar and Necrons. It’s already a boon for both casual and tournament play, an incentive to paint and sculpt in fluffy directions, a chance to rework your existing force into something that feels and play different. The new deity psychic power tables are better, more streamlined, with less useless chaff powers. Artifacts are interesting and cover a lot of options. This is better than a new Chaos book that kept things mostly the same but included a broken formation or simply added a Riptide-level game-winning unit.This adds character. Hell, playing an Iron Warriors vs. Thousand Sons match will now feel almost as distinct as playing again Tyranids!

From what I’ve seen floating around so far, Death Guard and Emperor’s Children are set to be the strongest factions out of the gate, though it’s early and there may be stuff we are missing.  World Eaters is decent, and MAY also be amazing if it can be worked into Khorne Daemonkin for more rules and murder. Alpha Legion is just delightful. I don’t care if it will win games or not, it’s just so sneaky.

 

~It’s a bright new Warp out there. Time to dust off your army builders and chart the shortest path to Terra!

  • Christie Bryden

    I look forward to the psychic mastery that the thousand sons give me, theres a pyschic power that gives a whole unit ignore cover, give that to a large unit of rubric marines (who will then also recive +1 to there invunerable) and watch them weep.

    • Nyyppä

      How does that counter invisibility, 2+ saves and high toughnes? I’m asking because that combination is pretty common.

  • Pyrrhus of Epirus

    not for nothing, but i havnt heard anybody mention necrons as top tier in quite awhile now. seems its warconvocation/eldar/marines/demons at the top of the heap.

    • Karru

      Necrons dropped hard after everyone else started getting their own Alternative Detachments. Currently the top is dominated by SM followed by War Convocation, Eldar and Daemons. After that I believe its Tau and then Necrons.

      • BurpinforDayz

        I would have though tau would have been up above war con with daemons.

        • Wolfsark

          Tau are only a top tier (S-tier) army when combined with Eldar. They are probably an A- on their own. Still really really strong and definitely better than 80% of other armies.

    • EnTyme

      The only armies that fear Necrons these days are the bottom-tier armies, and I’m not so sure CSM are in that category anymore.

      • gbc343

        Yeah, all the top-tier (Space Marines, Eldar, Tua, Ad-mech war convo, etc) all have some way of effectively dealing with the green robots if they really want to. Fun games aside these armies just have too much cheese in them for Necrons to consistently challenge them on a competitive scene.

    • Raven Jax

      Ah, the flesh creatures are unaware of our power and underestimate our ability. Perfect. Just as planned, we will spring our trap. Mwahahahaha!

    • gbc343

      Yeah, don’t get me wrong they still have some vitality but even though they got cranked up to ten doesn’t really cut it anymore when more and more armies are being cranked to 11. And definitely when some are being cranked to 15.

    • BaronSnakPak

      Anecdotal, but I was just in a tournament a couple weeks ago where a Necron decurion dominated the field. There were Eldar, Admech, Marines, and Demons present, and the only army that came close in points was Eldar.

  • eehaze

    I hope they add some more formations to the CSM Decurion at some point (maybe some bikes?) and give the CSM vehicles some love.

    • Commissar Molotov

      There are two mini-formations that give bonuses to 3 predators or 3 vindicators.

      • Karru

        My only issue with those “formations” is the same I had with them in Apocalypse long ago. Kill one of them on turn 1 and there goes your Squadron bonus. Only problem here is that now instead of having the ability to spread their shots around, the remaining tanks have to shoot at the same target.

        I hope they make Squadrons more useful in 8th.

  • Karru

    It’s nice to see someone see the good things about this release. The comment sections are always filled with people just whining that CSM didn’t become the next OP codex with this release and just continue hate on GW. They don’t realise that this is the perfect base to make the new book from. They now know that people wanted this. This is what CSM fans have wanted since 3.5 was lost, Legion rules. They wanted their collections to have a difference outside unit choices and paint job.

    Now that we have this, they can look into the next issue with the CSM codex. The Boon table should be removed and all Mutations should be made into upgrades like in 3.5. Then price Cult Marines properly. In their current position they are way overpriced, especially with the Legion rules. Next move onto other problem units, such as Possessed, Warp Talons, Warpsmiths, Dark Apostles and the Daemon Engines.

    Possessed should be made “choose which ability to use” with their possessed table, or do them like they were in 3.5. You buy their mutations, giving you reason to take them and actually base a strategy around them.

    Warp Talons should have something to help them DS more accurately so their special ability would be utilised.

    Warpsmiths and Dark Apostles both suffer from overpricing and lack of everything useful. Warpsmith should be made just a Chaos version of the Techmarine, cheap HQ or if you want to beef him up a bit you have the option. Dark Apostles should be way more useful. They could help with Daemon Summoning, make units around them Fearless or other major benefits that would fit them more than just being worse Chaos Chaplains.

    Daemon Engines suffer from overpricing. The Defiler has a lot of guns, but majority of them is wasted on the Battle Cannon target usually. It does have 4 Hullpoints, but I personally don’t see that as justifying the price you have to pay for it. 195pts for a Battle Cannon is not good. If you want a CC Walker, you go with the much faster Maulerfiend. Maulerfiends are fine IMO, they are correctly priced but they should have at least 2 attacks more as a base. 4 Attacks on the charge isn’t exactly the most useful thing against anything that isn’t a vehicle. Forgefiend needs a price drop or buff to BS. 175pts for a guy with BS3 that only has guns isn’t exactly the greatest thing ever. Either increase the BS to 4 when it has stood still for example, like Flash Gits, or make the base price 140-150.

    Next up, bring back Deep Strike “beacons” for CSM. In the 4th edition codex, you could use Icons as Homing Beacons for your Deep Strike units. Give Icons that rule back and/or give CSM some other form of DS assist. Considering that there is quite a few formations and even the BL Detachment Benefit that focus on Deep Striking, it’s extremely risky to use them due to DS scatter. All armies have something to help their units DS, but not CSM.

    Finally, make Daemon Weapons a “generic” weapons once again. No Mark, it’s just a CC weapon with +1 Strength, D6 extra attacks where rolling a 1 hits you in the face and is AP2. Khorne is 2D6 attacks instead, Slaanesh is Instant Death, Nurgle is Poison and Tzeentch is a Ranged Weapon as well. Leave the Relic slots for something useful. This is the CSM version of the SM Relic Blade, it’s nothing extremely special but definitely not relic slot worthy. Also, give CSM Daemon Armour, 2+ Save and a 5++ base, 30pts.

    • Raven Jax

      I disagree with some of the fixes you mention, but just wanted to compliment you coming up with so many good ideas. Also, wanted to echo your comment about how refreshing it is to see someone else (like me!) who’s really enjoying this release.

      • Karru

        What are these fixes you disagree with and what would you do instead?

    • Davor Mackovic

      Nice little reply there. 🙂 Here is a question, how the heck did you use paragraphs. When I try to use them I get no spacing between them. How did you do it?

      • Karru

        I just use Enter. I am writing these things on a PC, but I know that some use Phones to do it. Do you use a Phone to comment here or are you on a PC?

        • Davor Mackovic

          I am on a PC. I hit enter but for some reason the formatting eliminates the line. I use to be able to hit enter twice to get the spacing but that doesn’t work anymore either.
          I wonder if it’s because I am using Windows Explorer.

          • nurglitch

            Shift+Enter.

    • nurglitch

      Possessed have a formation called the Favoured of Chaos that means they get all three of their mutations. It comes with a Daemon Prince that you can use to support the Possessed with Daemonology, boosting their invulnerable save, etc.

      Warp Talons in a Black Legion Speartip can enter the board after a Raptor Lord executes a first turn Deep Strike, charge, and kill with the Dimensional Key. After that kill everything on T2+ lands with precision regardless of the position of your other units. The key-bearer doesn’t even need to survive.

      Warpsmiths are far more offensively-oriented than Techmarines, with their Melta Gun, Flamer, and Machine Curse abilities likewise complemented by Sunder Fortifications ability. That’s not including all the ways in which those effects stack. Likewise Dark Apostles aren’t simply force multipliers like Chaplains, but can be actively used to fish for useful Boon results, and stiffen Cultists.

      Defilers can take Dirge Casters. That’s really handy, particularly Being Daemons, and having an Invulnerable save that can be buffed with Daemonology or the Grimoire of True Names means they can be very survivable for their points. Judicious use of the Daemonforge rule can make up for their average BS.

      Daemon Weapons are basically generic as you suggest. The Spineshiver Blade +1I, the World Eaters get essentially three: The Berzerker Glaive, the Bloodfeeder, and the Axe of Blind Fury. I appreciate the shout-out to Daemon Weapons of editions past with the names. The Blade of the Hydra is likewise simple but unique thanks to AP5 and Rending instead of the usual AP2. The Plague Bringer is different from the Manreaper, the Blissgiver, and so on.

      In short, I’d recommend going through the book more closely. There’s some really neat stuff in there, and you might be able to enjoy it.

      • Karru

        There are a few problems here I’d like to point out.

        That Possessed formation requires you to take a Daemon Prince and 3-5 units of Possessed. At bare minimum that costs 545pts for 15 Possessed and a Daemon Prince of Slaanesh. This is not good, especially since the Possessed have to either walk across the table or use transports, they have to take at least 2-3 turns of fire before they even get to charge. They also need to be within 12″ of the Daemon Prince, who is relatively easy to kill, to get the benefit.

        Also, Possessed being totally random throughout the game makes no sense. The Possessed aren’t constantly mutating, they are what they are. They are not Spawns. This should be reflected in the game. It would also make Possessed way more useful if the starting price was lower, but you have the option to upgrade them to fill a specific role in your army. Need something to kill large, tough monsters? Poisoned Attacks upgrade. Want your Possessed to move fast? Beast upgrade. This way people wouldn’t consider Possessed to be a tax.

        Yes, you can try to charge in on the first turn with your Warp Talon led by a Lord that costs 250pts minimum without any special weapons, including power weapons of any kind. You just have to hope that you don’t scatter too far or mishap, make the charge and don’t f’ up not getting the kill with the Chaos Lord.

        Problem is of course that if I play something like Night Lords, I don’t have access to this plan, I have to wait to turn 2 at least to get my guy to the board. Yeah, not really a good option, now is it? Again, what I was suggesting is something CSM already had, but was removed for no reason.

        Boon table is worthless. It is literally the sole reason why the current CSM book has had so many bad releases ever since it was placed into the book. Why? D66 table that GW decided would be an amazing idea to base vast amount of special rules around it. I have NEVER seen it be useful, ever. It is so heavily RNG and makes absolutely no sense at all in the game. The idea that my Chaos Lords and other Characters that have spend DECADES or even CENTURIES fighting for Chaos just now decided to get their mutations. They clearly don’t have them, because only an idiot would focus on full CC in the form of a dual Lightning Claw while having a third eye that helps him shoot better.

        This leads to the Dark Apostle. The boon table fishing is again worthless. You are not allowed to gain Dark Apotheosis from the table on the only time it gets rolled, the Gift of Mutation rolls. It is extremely rare to see a Champion of Chaos character kill another Character to the point that I have seen it happen maybe twice out of the hundreds of games I have seen or personally played that had the rule in game.

        Dark Apostle should give the benefits I mentioned or be more of a speed boost for CSM. Since CSM lacks all methods of good transportation or delivery mechanism that doesn’t double the price of your CC unit, they are usually forced to walk. Dark Apostle could give them extra movement through run bonuses or just general re-rolls to charges. Final option would be to give him Ministorum Priest style buffs to cast to your units to make them fight much better.

        For 110pts, I get a guy with 2 wounds and nothing but a 2+ save for survivability. Those Meltas and Flamers are nice and all, but you still have to somehow get this guy close enough to use them without dying. That is the tricky part. You see, compared to his loyal counter part, the Techmarine which costs 45pts less, he does not have a Drop Pod or access to a Bike. The Shatter Defence lowers one, non purchased, piece of terrain on the board. This most of the time doesn’t effect the game at all, since the cover that the opponent would rely on if needed would be the one he bought.

        Literally his only useful power is the Curse, but that doesn’t justify his cost of 110pts. His price also becomes a problem when all the “hard hitting” formations like the Cult of Destruction and Hellforged Hunting Pack both require you to buy him.

        I never said anything about the Defilers ability to survive. 12 Front AV, 4 Hullpoints and It Will Not Die keeps this guy on the board for a long time. The problem is his price. 195pts for a Battle Cannon is not good. If it fires that thing, it cannot use any other weapon to their full capability. It can also only move 6″, unless you waste your Battle Cannon shot to run it then a bit more. Comparing that to Maulerfiend for 125pts who can move 12″ and ignores Terrain, it’s extremely useless to try to get the Defiler to CC.

        Also, the Dirge Caster has a range of 8″. Chances of that Defiler being in range to use it against units that it would matter against is slim. Also, I tend to find Chaos Rhinos to be better Dirge Caster carriers, since people tend to “ignore” them after they drop their units.

        Daemon Weapons are currently taking away relic slots that could be used to give CSM way better relics. Making them generic again like they were before would increase the chances of getting useful relics. Something that gives Eternal Warrior or a 3++ save would be nice. Like I said, the Daemon Weapon is basically CSM version of the SM Relic Blade. It’s our unique CC weapon that only CSM has. It should be generic, not a relic.

        Trust me, I have gone trough that book MANY times. I have looked at different combos and tried out different dumb tactics. My conclusions have been the following:

        Anything related to Boon table is worthless and the pricing of some CSM units is way off.

        • nurglitch

          They’re all a bunch of cowboys, Ted!

      • Nyyppä

        Possessed are still slow purely melee units with no means to harm anything significant and they cost a lot. If you need to build an army for the sole purpose of supporting a squad to make it at least passingly useful it’s just not worth it.

    • bginer

      I agree with everything you wrote. A first!

      One thing I’d like to add would be to drop the points for Oblits, or get rid of that stupid no firing the same weapon the next turn rule. Actually, do both. Not like Oblits are taking over the top tables, and they’re naturally limited by their squad size anyway. Well, that and Grav… sigh.

      • Sephyr

        I think oblits are decently costed, especially now that mamy of them will be geting VotLW for free with added goodies. But yeah, the weapon switch is annoying, and will get more so now that Iron Warriors can field tons. “Alright, this Oblit pair fired plasma cannons last turn…oh wait, it was those guys over there! Who used lascannons on that Kibhgt, again? I need to keep a chart.”

        • Karru

          The problem I have with Obliterators is their lack of survivability. Toughness 4 base and 2 wounds for a unit of 3 is not good. They are easier to kill than Terminators, since these guys just have to take 1 Strength 8 Shot and fail their save and boom, 70pts per failed roll is now gone.

          This is why they should do two things with Obliterators, increase their Toughness to 5 and them the ability to take more models in the unit, up to 5 would be good. This is of course if they choose to keep the price.

          They only have a 5++ save if their armour is negated, but most of the time you see these guys fall to bolter/lasgun fire. You have to take the Mark of Nurgle if you want them to stay on the board for more than 1 turn. The comparison here could be made towards Centurions. 55pts for a guy with 2 wounds and Toughness 5. They don’t have the weapon options of the Obliterators, but they at least survive long enough to use them.

          • NightShade2k

            they dont need weapon options when you have grav 😛

          • Pyrrhus of Epirus

            With respect, oblits weaponry is a joke vs what cents get (grav). Grav is better than any combo the oblits can come up with.

          • Karru

            That is true. Grav is single-handedly the most broken rule in the game. Centurion is 55pts base, but costs 80pts with the Grav-cannon and Amp. I was just using the base price of the Centurion to show the difference between the two, which is why I said the thing about weapons. The 55pts Centurion has nothing but Twin-linked Heavy Bolters, which means that Obliterators win by a country mile then at that point in the weapon department.

          • Sephyr

            I always mark my Oblits Nurgle, and parked them in good cover, so that went a good way to making them last. Wasting a lascannon shot at them? Won’t cause ID and they’ll save half the time. Most people just don’t bother, in my experience, as least while you still have transports/MCs on the table that can reach objectives.

            They can usually reach Grav units before they can get range, and if the enemy is wasting its D-strength shots on them, my other stuff gets to live. But yeah, if you are facing stuff like multiple grav bikers, they will go down fast.

          • Karru

            Everyone takes Obliterators with the Mark of Nurgle since it is necessary. This is why Iron Warrior players are not happy, because they are not allowed to take them, so they are forced to use Toughness 4 Obliterators.

    • ZeeLobby

      Hey, this used to be you before you 180ed into uber love.

      • Karru

        Fun fact, I have always been the same. Despise toxic people who can never say anything positive ever and give constructive criticism in the form of actually giving possible solution.

        Just because I don’t post “GW just hates CSM” and then post a large list of things that are bad in extremely competitive scene without giving any suggestions on how to improve them doesn’t mean I took “180 into uber love”.

        This release is great for vast majority of CSM players. Highly competitive scene should never be used as a measurement for “how fun the book” is. This is what most of the negative posters here on the forum do. They say that this release is utter garbage because it didn’t make CSM superior to Space Marines and they still cannot win SM at least 80+% of the time. Because of this, they make it clear that ANYONE who doesn’t agree with them is completely wrong and should feel bad about themselves. These people want others to hate on it as well, just because it doesn’t have the power to compete in tournament scene like SM.

        There are many, including me, that couldn’t care one single bit about the competitiveness of this book. I know for a fact that if my old CSM army could compete against my friends with the old rules, I know that this book will do wonders.

        • ZeeLobby

          Lol. I love how you pigeon hole competitive players into this extreme of wanting to be OP, and superior to Space Marines. How bout those who still just want to be treated equally? People enjoy games for different reasons. Just because I was personally hoping for a book that brought CSM to equal ground with other top tier armies, and feel that this book didn’t deliver that, doesn’t make me a whiner. The fact that other players hoped for the same and comment as well should tell you that maybe those who enjoy competitive 40K aren’t just some sliver group while the “majority” got everything they ever wanted. If anything this attitude IS the caustic part of the community and comment section.

          • Karru

            Have you ever thought that they should balance it the other way? Eldar and Tau have dropped in power level greatly, but SM still holds strong. How about you complain that they don’t nerf SM instead of saying they should buff CSM to their level. This is my issue here. Vast majority of people who complain about CSM releases don’t do it because it didn’t bring them on the level with other codices. They complain and whine because it didn’t bring them on the level with SM. SM is broken, so only way to accomplish bringing CSM to their level is to make CSM broken.

            I’m not seeing people say “well this CSM unit has nothing against Necron Warriors or Eldar Jetbikes”. It’s always “these benefits are nothing compared to Demi-Company”. “Great, I get free VotLW and some extra rules, but where are my Free Transport like I get with SM?”

            Try to think about this release this way. SM codex doesn’t exist, at all, but every other codex exists. Now try to picture “how useless” this release is. Not that useless, huh?

            To repeat it one more time, the reason why I place all highly competitive gamers into one big lump is because their argument is always the same. “This doesn’t compare to this thing SM can do”. There is also the lack of suggestions how to fix things when these “competitive” gamers post about how bad CSM is. There is nothing but complain how bad they are, once again, compared to SM.

            Without changing the broken aspect of the SM codex, how would you “fix” the CSM codex in order to bring it “on the level” WITHOUT making it broken against Orks, Tyranids and Dark Eldar for example?

            In other words, look at the whiners that hate on the CSM releases and look at their arguments. “SM can do this better”, “SM can bring these stuff for cheaper”, “SM gets more rules than we do”, “SM has better formations”. I don’t remember seeing many comments how “Eldar had better formations” or “How Tau has better formations” than CSM. It’s always SM this and SM that. Unless CSM can beat SM, whiners won’t be happy. Only way to do that without changing the SM codex is to make CSM broken.

            So, have you ever thought about it the other way? Maybe the problem isn’t in the CSM codex being so utterly bad. Maybe the problem is that SM is so utterly broken that every other codex has a problem facing it? Maybe the real solution is to bring down the SM power level.

            These rules gave CSM the power to fight Necrons, Tau and Eldar on the competitive scene. Death Guard and Emperor’s Children are both great for that. They have a decent shot at winning. SM has the perfect counter for both, Grav, Free Transports and Mobility. Current ITC scoring shows that SM is the clear top dog. Only way to fix that without breaking the game some more is to tone them down.

          • Karru

            Here’s also the thing about competitive gaming that everyone should have to accept. There is no such thing as perfect balance. If you think your favourite faction is so utter trash that it’s unplayable, then change it. If you care about winning so much that you have nothing but HATE towards everything that is released for your chosen army, then change. Play Space Marines and use CSM models, problem solved.

            Again, I’m not seeing Eldar players complain that their Howling Banshees are useless or Daemon players saying that their Slaanesh Daemons are extremely bad in the competitive scene. Competitive gamers are happy as long as they have a competitive lists to make, no matter what it contains unit-wise. If the book has lots of great options for that it’s good, but it’s not like they would start whining if some of the units in the book are useless as long as they can make a fully functioning competitive list with the selected few.

            Eldar have lots of great units, with barely anything utterly useless in the book. What do we see fielded 99% of the time in the competitive scene? Jetbikes, Warp Spiders and Wraithknights.

            What about SM? Double Demi-company or lots of bikes with Grav. Again, another book with tons of other great options, but since those two are the best options, competitive gamers only use those.

            Tau? Suits, suits, suits and more suits. Riptides, Stormsurges and Crisis suits. Pathfinders to give them Marker Lights and then some Fire Warriors to give them backline objective grabbers and some more firepower. No constant complaining there about Vespid, Kroot or Flyers being bad from the competitive crowd.

            Necrons, Flayed Ones and Monoliths. Nope not hearing much complaining from the competitive players about this either.

            Then my favourite, Ad Mech. War Convocations in rows. Haven’t heard any complaints from the competitive crowd about Electropriests for example. Why? Because they aren’t needed to field the War Convocation.

            Competitive gamers are happy as long as the codex can fight against anything, preferably on its own. Even if it only has one units that they can spam over and over again that can accomplish this, they won’t complain.

            So what is so bad about the codex getting a few amazing units? Everyone should have them to make their codex good, right? Yeah, tell that to those casual gamers who loved to play Iyanden armies before 7th edition Eldar codex dropped. Bring that army to a pick up game and try to explain to your opponent that you aren’t “that guy”. Loved to run a Battle Company style SM army before Demi-company was a thing? Oh boy, are you in for a treat!

            I have heard so many stories from people having to shelf their armies because they are now so broken because GW buffed them way too much. This led to people hating to play against them, because they were marked as “that guy” before he even got to roll dice. All this because he liked to run it BEFORE it was deemed broken.

            I say I play Eldar, SM, Orks and IG. Many times have I gotten arguments like “you have no idea how bad things are for us, since you play Eldar/SM”. Sorry, bud. I played both armies BEFORE they got broken. SM since 5th edition and Eldar before their 6th edition book dropped. I get marked as a power gamer because I chose one of the top tier armies. Of course, it has never anything to do with the fact that I might enjoy their looks or something, I just follow the trend because I am a seer and know about these things years in advance.

    • Djbz

      I don’t think the boon table would be so bad if they removed all the effects that didn’t increase a stat and allowed for multiples of the same effect.
      And if they made Dark Apotheosis and spawnhood work (mostly) like they do in Daemonkin

      • Karru

        The old Warriors of Chaos “Eye of the Gods” table was good to a point. 2D6 table, pretty much no bad results outside the BS increase and it wasn’t what defined Chaos. This is the largest problem I have with the Boon Table. The Formations focus on it, the TH detachment benefit focuses on it and even the Dark Apostle helps with it. It’s very bad idea since it’s so random.

        In Fantasy, the Eye of the Gods table was a nice benefit. You took a minor risk to give your Lord/Hero some more fighting power or made your Chosen even more terrifying. In 40k, you take a risk to get a chance to get a very minor reward.

    • Sephyr

      Yes, tons of good things here. I think random tables will always be a part of Chaos, and while I am not too fond of it, I can live with it. Adding failsafe to detachments or formations can mitigate that, too.

      As I wrote, this is a great step, so now I’m hopeful for the next ones. With any luck, this has been written with the upcoming new rules in mind so friction will be minimal. And the cult troops really need to either be made better/cheaper or redone with new concepts. And I’ve writen about how daemon engines are an amazing concept that has severely been under-employed so far. Hell, Defilers were 40% of why I got into 40K, and I never fiedled one because as soon as I finished reading the rulebook I saw what a weird mishmash it was!

      • Karru

        The random tables should, at the very least, be cut to smaller size and made into less of a thing in the book. Like I mentioned in my other comment, Fantasy Warriors of Chaos had the Eye of the Gods table. It was 2d6, had only 1 bad result outside the double 1’s. Even if you rolled Double 1’s, you had to take a LD check, if you passed you didn’t turn into a spawn, but gained Stupidity. It wasn’t the main focus either. This is the issue with the current CSM codex, they seem to focus on it too much.

        This is bad because you cannot make a strategy around a D66 roll. Also, vast majority of the rolls are useless. I would prefer if they gave back the Mutation upgrades for CSM and give them something similar to the Eye of the Gods table if they insist on having some sort of “reward” system.

    • ILikeToColourRed

      id change warpsmiths to be ml1 with access only to the machine powers

  • Davor Mackovic

    Hate to be a downer here, but how long will this be “legal” for? By that I mean can it be obsolete in about 6 or 7 months time from now?
    Would really suck people finally got what they wanted but only had a short time to use it. Here is hoping this will still be good next June when rumour 8th edition comes around.

    • Karru

      We still don’t know exactly what 8th edition has in store for us in terms of books for example. It does make a lot of sense to do large “alliance” books and faction books in AoS since vast majority of players most likely don’t need half of them. General’s Handbook usually has everything they need in terms of points and some relics/warlord traits and all the Warscrolls are up on the site for free.

      Since 40k is definitely the GW “main line” at this point, I find it very likely to continue the style that 40k has done so far. I really can’t see Codices going away and GW making alliances that make no sense in 40k lore. I personally see that the reason for AoS Warscrolls being free was originally because GW didn’t want to take a massive risk. AoS would have failed hard if GW would have required people to buy faction books for everyone.

      Also, if nothing else, this will serve as an amazing base for the future CSM releases.

      • 301stFeinminsterArmoured

        I foresee a set of faction pdfs in our future.

    • Nyyppä

      Only DG players got what they wanted. The rest have no reason to buy this book.

      • Kazzigum

        This is false. You are projecting. I hail this awesome Chaos release.

        • Nyyppä

          How is the supplement being a miss instead of a hit for everyone not DG my projection? I mean, it clearly is a miss for every other legion. It’s awesome that CSM got something but almost 90% of it at the moment looks like it can not hold against new style marines, eldar, tau, daemons or mechanicum. Tau is a bit iffy but the rest are just too strong.

          • Mike Salamandrin

            Because if everyone (non-DG players) believed it was a miss for their legion, then there would be more comments toward that veiw point. Yours is the only comment from that group that holds this opinion, therefore, your backing your opinion with a false consensus; projecting your opinion

          • Nyyppä

            Oh come on. Every at least passingly honest review this far has named 1-3 legions that are good/ok and admitted that the rest are just not worth it.

          • Mike Salamandrin

            …in your selectively informed and supported opinion 😉

          • Nyyppä

            Confirmation bias has got nothing to do with this. I’m searching reasons to change my opinion but have yet to find any.

      • 301stFeinminsterArmoured

        I got massed Oblits, Artificer Armour for my Sorcerer, and decent complimentary rules to mix one of my favourite Legions with one of my favourite detachments. Cry me a river.

        • Nyyppä

          Can your chosen sub faction win a GT? Not likely. That would mean that it’s not balanced with the codices it needs to be balanced with.

          • 301stFeinminsterArmoured

            Whatever, I’ll play what I please.

          • Nyyppä

            That is perfectly fine.

  • Silverbeast

    GW new CO definetly better than the last one, the new heading is good. We will see what 2017 hold for us.

    • Karru

      Bringing back the Facebook pages, starting to communicate with the player base, Start Collecting! boxes, Campaign books, Youtube Channel with daily content, Community Website, Twitch Streaming Tournaments and now they are starting a regular show.

      Yep, I’d say I agree with you there.

      • Davor Mackovic

        Now we need clear, concise, fair and balanced rules and codices. At least with a great rule set the high price for minis can be more “worth” it then in my opinion. The rules right now don’t make the minis worth the prices they ask for sadly.

        • Karru

          Which is why I am glad about the recent developments. They have made it clear that they are now listening to the community. They took comments from fans regarding General’s Handbook v2 if I remember correctly. Now that they are bringing the new shows with the Warhammer Live and actually play the game actively there, when people can talk about issues they might have with the game, chances are that those words reach the design team.

          This could lead to more balanced ruleset overall.

        • Nyyppä

          That’ll be the day….

    • Nyyppä

      I guess since everything is done better than before, even TL which still falls miles short from it’s target.

  • Nyyppä

    There were 4 objectively true things in this article. It looks like DG and ES are the best here. Cult units seem useless compared to regular CSM, not because regulars are awesome but because cults suck. These 2 books are released come saturday. It’s not about necrons AND eldar though the other faction it is about is eldar, just not with necrons.

    Nothing else in that article can hold it’s own against any sort of scrutiny.

  • Randy Randalman

    Emperor’s Children got a lot of love in this release.

    “But GW is killing off Slaanesh!” said the lemmings.

    No signs of it in 40k (and this release buries the argument entirely and without reasonable opposition), and in AoS, they are clearly working an event angle with the aelfs.

    • Karru

      Still waiting for those new model releases for anything Slaanesh. Lots of Khorne and Tzeentch, some Nurgle but the lack of Slaanesh in the model department is quite noticeable.

      Chances are that GW has made it so they have the option to do two things, kill off Slaanesh OR find a way to give Slaanesh models less “sexy” look that still says “Slaanesh” on it.

      It’s not like we didn’t get any rules for Bretonnia and Tomb Kings in AoS. Tell me again what happened to them in the grand scheme of things?

  • ReveredChaplainDrake

    I dunno. On one hand, I’d very much like to throw this in the face of everybody who told me that SM Chapters having perks and CSM legions getting nothing was somehow fluffy. On the other, I’m still bothered by the fact that my chaos-hating Night Lords still panhandle to the Chaos Gods (“chaaaange… spare some chaaaaange?”) because of that stupid Champion of Chaos rule. Until that goes, it’s counts-as-Blood-Angels for me. Or more realistically, a better game because 40K is still fundamentally a pile of garbage interspersed with air fresheners.

    The thought of a new edition and a new Chaos codex intrigues me, but blah-blah-blah-blah hope blah-blah-blah-blah disappointment.

    • 301stFeinminsterArmoured

      RE: Night Lords – Determinism FTW?

  • bginer

    One point to note. If you take a look at the CSM army breakdown (also on Tasty’s site) you will see that there are actually no CSM in those lists. It’s all Renegade of Vraks style.

    Literally not a single Chaos Space Marine in any of the winning lists. I checked. It was depressing reading.

    I also attended WarZone Atlanta last month, and while there were a large number of different armies there, I only know of one that had CSM models in it. Well, a few more if you count the CSM bikers I and a some others had in a KDK Gorepack formation.

    CSM are not doing fine in any meta that I’m aware of and its a damn shame. Hopefully the latest releases will help to ameliorate that a bit.

    • happy_inquisitor

      Hmm, his TastyTasteness seems to be missing some lists. I know James Carmona won Broadside Bash with a Cabal-star list.

      I agree that we would want the latest release to improve things and make it less of a mono-build.

      • bginer

        Weeelllll, looking at his list, the star had the only CSM models in it, and of course they were Sorcerers. The rest were daemons.

        This is why its so depressing. Even CSM lists before the Traitors Hate supplement came out had NO CSM models in them. Cultists yes, cult units yes, Heldrakes of course, but no actual Marines.

        I’m hoping this will change with the new book, but I think we still need a full rewrite of the points for practically all the units for a full rebalancing of the codex.

        • happy_inquisitor

          I agree and I am reasonably hopeful that a couple of the legions have rules that make basic CSM worth taking.

          Although – really – expecting a particular favorite unit to be the best choice is usually expecting too much. When it came out everyone said the Eldar codex had such good internal balance you could throw darts at it to produce a list; now look at tournament Eldar lists and there is almost no variety and most of the codex is unseen on tournament tables.

          • bginer

            Good point on the Eldar. It’s going to be interesting to see How it all develops.

  • Rafał Pytlak

    A good Slaanesh/Emp Children/Noise Marines army? What year is this!?

  • DeCold

    Now all we need is a good Havoc box and the ritual will be complete.

  • SupPupPup
  • Sorien

    Now it’s time for an Ork Clans supplement with formations and artifacts for each of the clans. That would be awesome.

    • Nyyppä

      This would be awesome too. After that they could rerelease TL as a fixed version.

  • Chris Bingley

    As a Black Legion player. I’d be interested to see how comboing up the new cult troops (assuming their rules have changed) works out.

    • Nyyppä

      The rules for regular SM have changed. Cults seem to be the same. I don’t have the book but there has not been anything in the air suggesting that the cults would be somehow different from the codex.

  • Alpharius

    The Traitor Legions book definitely surprised me and was better than expected, especially after the Thousand Sons book. There are still plenty of misses in the book, but as an Alpha and Black Legionnaire whose principal opponent is a Khorne and Nurgle Player, we’ll get plenty of use out of this book.

    • Nyyppä

      CSM against CSM -> balanced match. The problem is that people still think that that means CSM is in balance with the rest of the game.

  • Commissar Molotov

    I’m really psyched for the Traitor Legions book. I have an old Death Guard army that’s gathering dust (and badly needs to be repainted – it was done long before Duncan was warning people to “thin their paints”) that needs to see the tabletop again. I hear there’s a DG artifact that turns cultists into plague zombies without having to use ol’ Typhus – if that’s the case, then it’s time to crank out several dozen zombies!

    • Nyyppä

      It’s Nurgle, it’s ok. 😉

      Anyway, you are one of the few CSM fans that have a reason to excited about this. Lucky you, I wish there were more people in your position.

      • Commissar Molotov

        You know, after looking over the entries this morning, I think a lot of old Chaos players are actually gonna enjoy the offerings in this one. There’s nothing game-breaking or as powerful as “free transports for everybody!”, but it allows Chaos players to do what a lot of us have been pining for since 3.5 – a way to field a pure traitor LEGION force, instead of just a warband of renegades.

        • Nyyppä

          From my point of view this book is worse that just the codex. There’s nothing to gain and I get to have tedious and useless book keeping for nothing.