40K Review: New Thousand Sons Worth It?

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Black Blow Fly here to tell you what I think of everything we’ve seen about the new Thousand Sons.

Hey everyone it’s your neighborhood Black Blow Fly passing through to spread some more mischief and the rot ! There’s been lots and lots of talk about the new Thousand Sons with the new releases.

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I’m Sad

To be honest I’m disappointed… why…

1. Magnus overcosted
2. Rubric Marines overcosted and not multi-wound units
3. Rubric Terminators overcosted, not multi-wound and no access to power fists or chain fists
4. Daemons getting preferential treatment over CSM yet again

Now don’t get me wrong – I still have hope some of the traitor legions will be viable again with the new rules but to do so cult Marines sorely need a point reduction… it’s just that simple. Hopefully some will and there will be some new game mechanics that make the undivided legions viable as well. Hopefully we will not be hit with codex dinobots part 2.

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But Why?

So let’s run through my four points above why I’m disappointed with the new rules for Thousand Sons.

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1. Magnus is really really expensive. I feel that while Magnus is very powerful his high point cost really puts a damper on armies built up to de facto standard levels such as 1850 points and even higher since his inclusion will greatly reduce your choice of other units… again we come back to direct comparisons versus other greatly undercosted monstrous creatures for the ubiquitous xenos armies. That’s right I’m talking about Wraithknights, Supremacy Suits and the Stormsurge. While Magnus got the royal treatment in the rules department and is probably more powerful than any of the currently released Primarchs for the Horus Heresy the daemon Primarch has been costed more in line with what you’d expect for 30k rather than 40k which is simply too much. I think Magnus should have clocked between 400-500 points for 40k.

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2. There was no real point cost reduction for Rubric Marines. They really need to be multi wound models in order to be effective versus all the very powerful shooting standard now to 40k. The new Rubric Marines need to get up close and personal in order to be effective with their template weapons. Their low AP bolters will still have major problems versus the over abundance of cover saves.

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3. Rubric Terminators are in the same boat as Rubric Marines. The lack of AP 2 melee weapons simply make them ineffective versus any enemy unit with a 2+ armor save. Sure they are very pretty but that’s about it which just doesn’t cut it in a competitive gaming environment.

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4. Daemons Win… Again. Horrors look to be the big winners… thanks Phil Kelly, your love for Tzneetch daemons is there for all to see. The CSM component is still basically the same as ever. Sorry but you missed the proverbial boat yet again.

So maybe Magnus, a Tzneetch daemon prince and Lord of Change with a whole host of boundless Horrors is the way to go but it easily could have been a different story if the Rubric Marines and Terminators had finally got the love they so deserve.

~Oh well here’s to waiting to see what drops next. How do you feel about the new rules?

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  • The Rout

    Gotta say I agree on the points costs of the ts but magnus is pretty fair imo. His high invun with possible re rolls makes him extremely hard to kill. He can own most of the knights and equivalents before they get to act in cc and if the choose a dice result power comes true he can guarantee a 6 on that d shot and kill basically anything in 1 shot. 400-500 points would be insanely cheap and since he’s flying most d weapons would need need a 6 to hit and a 6 on the d table to kill him as quickly. If someone needs to fire 36 d shots at him to kill him I think 650 points is fair.

    • Yoong John Yen

      I agree in regards to Magnus. He’s insanely tough to beat. Assuming that he has the Daemon of Tzeetch rule, he gets to reroll saves of 1, he just need to cast the Primaris (giving him +2 to his invul saves) on a 2+ to harness the power, he’ll be a flying 2++ rerollable monster flying around the battle field killing anything within range. The only thing that can kill him is a lucky D shot with a 6 on the D table (and a 6 to hit). He’s almost as good as invulnerable on the table. Even a Harridan in the air will die to it extremely easily.

      Once you have the multiple horrors on the table giving you insanely a lot of dice, he’ll have tonnes of dice to throw at you without fearing any perils because he ignore perils (assuming I got that rumour right). So for 650 pts for that? I think he’s quite well priced.

      • Niklas Persson

        His mark of tzeentch prevents his invulnerable from being buffed beyond 3+ – so a fair assumption is that most of the time he’ll have a 3+ invulnerable and rerolling 1’s. Which is still pretty good.

        • Largie

          What mark of tzeentch? He only has daemon of tzeentch and a 4++ from his crown.

        • Djbz

          The mark of Tzeetch special rule isn’t actually on his datasheet (surprisingly) so he won’t be limited to a 3+

          • Diagoras

            Unfortunately, it’s a moot point. He has no way to go past 3++. The “new” Tzeentch table is really just the old one with three new powers added.

          • mike

            I didn’t think he used the new tzeentch table? He has 15 of his own? Not sure if they will include any invulnerable buffing.

          • Diagoras

            Nah, just fifteen total. He knows the entirety of the Tzeentch and Change disciplines (seven spells apiece) and his unique Gaze of Magnus power.

          • mike

            Ah cool 🙂 thanks. Mine will be on display along side my supremacy suit (when I finish that too bahaha)

          • Severius_Tolluck

            Procrastination!

          • Djbz

            There are ways, it’s just a bit trickier.
            He can have the grimoire of true names boost him to a 2+ (or reduce him to a 5+)
            He can cast a blessing on himself in the new detachment and have a nearby sorceror cast cursed earth and/or have the +1 invunrable save rolled up on the warpstorm table.

          • If he has a blessing cast on him he gets +1 to invul, all he needs is a nearby cursed earth and someone to cast on him to be a 2++ rerollable save

          • I would go for Invisibility, Endurance, Iron Arm and Cursed Earth. S10 and T10 with 4+ FNP

          • Agent OfBolas

            Cursed Earth spell FTW.

        • Agent OfBolas

          He is Daemon of Tzeentch and have daemonic mark, not CSM one.

          2++ is possible. Daemon of T is giving him reroll of 1s on Inv save rolls.

          • Niklas Persson

            You’re like the third person to point this out already.

          • Karru

            Just to make sure, he is a Daemon of Tzeentch and he isn’t tied to the CSM Mark of Tzeentch rule. I hope that clears it up for you! 😀

          • lorieth

            Only six more to go then…

      • Matt

        Is a C’tan hard to kill? If you fail to get powers spun up he’s a 1/3 of your list liability. He certainly isn’t worth 2 WKs or IKs.

        • BurpinforDayz

          Magnus could kill 2 wraithknights in CC alone not to mention it’s a FMC and while swooping is always hit on 6s. Magnus could easily kill its points back if used correctly.

      • Agent OfBolas

        Primaris is not giving +2 Invul. Primaris is a damage spell.

    • Eisai

      The points of Rubrics is not offset by the formations.
      You need to have 9 units of rubrics/sorcerers/Scarab occult to get a bonus of ‘reroll ones on save roll’
      If you want to have a decent unit, you will upgrade, and end with 230-300 points per sorcerer/unit (or more).

      The buff is too small, and you need more than just one maxed formation to play competetively. Their defence got better, their offence – didn’t (it is dependend on how many sorcerers/Esorcerers you have – and this costs)

      It would work – with cheaper units. Just that.
      Because I could take some shooty options, or maulers, flyers, dreadclaws etc.

    • Walter Vining

      the choose a roll power is not true. Frontline had the book and leaked the powers and its not there

      • BurpinforDayz

        Does the detachment provide +1 invuln to models affected by a blessing? Double checked it , it does.

        • Walter Vining

          I never said that the detachment doesn’t do that. There was a rumor here placed a day or so ago that allowed you to pick a D6 roll. So people were storming that you cast that, then you cast the D beam, then you pick a 6 on the roll on the D chart. That power to pick the result of a ad6 roll simply isn’t true from someone who had book in hand. Please re-read and understand that I never said anything about blessings affecting the ++ save

          • BurpinforDayz

            It wasn’t meant to be addressed like that, I wrote the first part of the question, looked it up posted the second half, it wasn’t rhetorical it was a genuine question which I answered. Sorry about that.

            The reason why its good is cos cursed earth.

      • The Rout

        Thank god (or gods) for that! Still though he is more capable of killing almost any superheavy than they are capable of killing him. He is also more durable than everything bar a big titan and he has a huge effect on the game outside of just damage. Compare him to my LoW. Father Grimnar, i could take 2 of him for Magnus points and who do you think wins that fight?

        • Walter Vining

          I think Magnus, sadly, wins even against two Grimnars. Which I wish wasn’t true. Sad day for the All Father.

          • BurpinforDayz

            I think Magnus could take 3 to be honest if he got a psychic phase in first.

          • The Rout

            He definitely would that’s my point. In fact he could likely best 2 instances of most LoW choices. Luckily it seems like most people are happy with the points cost the author being the minority. He is very expensive but I regularly field a mastodon that costs at least 50 more points. That’s likely to be shelved if I know I’m fighting ts.

          • Walter Vining

            I don’t think you need to shelve it against TS. they are going to have a lot of psychic power, but D isn’t really all that destructive, and unless they get that 6 against you the mastodon is going to be fine.

    • If Magnus clocked in around 450 points it would have offset the cost for Rubrics.

      • The Rout

        That would work if magnus could only be taken with ts but would make him completely broken otherwise because he’d be way too cheap

    • It’s really not that hard for Tau with sky fire and D missiles.

  • Eric Lindgren

    Magnus is definately not overcosted. He is very fair for his cost.

    • wibbling

      As with many units it’s a question of what you use against him, I think. He’ll be mobile, destructive and hard to kill. But he’s only killing one unit a turn and, to be honest, you want him buffing your own guys with that 2+ warp charge harnessing.

      • miteyheroes

        With a D beam he should be killing more than 1 per turn.

      • KassIas

        Witchfires can be used on separate targets now. If he’s part of the grand coven detachment then he can target up to 6 different units per psychic phase. And with his beam, he could possibly hit more than that.

        • Eric Lindgren

          He has line of sight to every unit even without that formation too. Not to mention harnessing charges on a 2+ It should be easy to lay waste to multiple units a turn.

  • Red_Five_Standing_By

    Yeah, I am pretty sure you are wrong about Magnus.

  • wibbling

    Why are the daemons getting preferential treatment? Being forced to take 9 units is painful. I get that it’s fluffy, but it really isn’t.

    • Karru

      By making Horrors a ton better compared to Thousand Sons. The splitting ability is insane and because of it, Thousand Sons will be reduced to summoning army to make more daemons with very little damage output from the regular units.

  • miteyheroes

    No mention of Sorcerors?

  • Aezeal

    So not playing 40K… but was there ANY reason to expect these marines/terminators to be multi wound? Are there others that are multiwound (if not it would be pretty odd if sorcerers fanboys are suddenly tougher than the rest).

    • BT

      Obliterators are 2 wounds each.

    • Charon

      Grey Knights for starters and 1k sons in 5th (?)

    • Karru

      Thousand Sons had two wound in 3.5 codex. Grey Knight Paladin Terminators are also 2 wounded, Ork Nobz have two wounds as well as Mega Nobz. Obliterators and Mutilators have 2 wounds. Those are just from the books I have on hand, so yeah there is a “few”.

      • Karru

        Also, to add to that, Thousand Sons models suffer from a very critical downside. Lack of good AT weaponry. Their best weapon is the Soulreaper Cannon at Strength 5, on top of that they are 23pts a piece and have to pay extra 35pts for each unit of Thousand Sons they take. For a 10-man unit, that’s 265pts for 9 guys with Bolters and a useless Sorcerer who has only Tzeentch Powers, since he is not allowed to take anything else. They have 4++ save, but it doesn’t matter since attacking these guys in CC is extremely easy thanks to Slow & Purposeful, those flamers they get for +7pts become utterly useless at that point. They are also just Tactical Marines in CC at that point, no extra CC weapon and 1 attack base.

        Again, 265pts for 9 Bolters and 1 Sorcerer with useless powers. These guys have nothing good going for them outside the AP3 Bolters. Anyone brings anything with AV and these guys are worthless. These are your CORE troops that make up good chunks of your formations, you really think that it would have been wrong to have a unit that can take more hits than a regular Marine Squad that costs almost half the points when facing massed fire?

        • Aezeal

          I think it would be better if they had good weapons.. seems more logical and 2x the wounds. Or another core choice like a heavy weapons team that has those.

          A decent buff spell (for shooting or defense or melee) on the required sorc would be even more thematic.

          • Karru

            My ideal world for Thousand Sons squads would have been to reduce their price, to around 19pts a piece while keeping the sorcerer at +35pts. This would have meant that they are 225pts for a unit of 10. Then I would have made the Aspiring Sorcerer a lot better by removing his Mastery Level and making him similar to the Ministorum Priests.

            Instead of having a list of abilities to choose from like the priest, when making your list you would have to pick one of the Thousand Sons Cults he belonged in. Depending on that, the entire unit and the power he had would change. For example, if he was from Corvidae, he would give the unit re-rolls to hits and Ignores Cover Saves. A unit with Bolters and even the Soulreaper Cannon won’t be able to annihilate everything on the board but they would make a massive threat to Eldar Jetbikes and Marines hiding behind cover.

            It would work through an LD check instead of Warp Charges. This way, you would be able to adapt your Thousand Sons units to specific tasks. Instead of having to take a Squad of Havocs for example, I can take a unit of Thousand Sons with a Sorcerer from Pyrae and he would be able to increase the strength of the Bolters to 7, but it removes AP completely, makes them Heavy 1 and gives them Gets Hot.

            This way these formations that Thousand Sons now have to take would make a lot more sense.

        • Erik Giersdorf

          Didn’t someone say the aspiring guy get can get a melta?

          • Karru

            Unless they have given him the ability to take Ranged Weapons, then no. In the CSM codex, he can’t take any upgrades.

      • Aezeal

        It’s weird some termies have 2 wounds and others don’t… it’s not like some space marines are THAT much tougher than others (lets not start about why their commanders can take much more wounds.. ).

        • The Rout

          Ive always justified that as an affinity for the gene seed. So the commanders and tougher marines are tougher because the gene seed took them closer to primarch level than average.

          Cant justify it for humans though but the same logic applies to eldar (being stronger psykers) Orks (being more Orky) etc.

          • Aezeal

            It could explain a few things like better fighting, better reflexes etc or more hair growth on space wolves.
            But suddenly being able to take 2x – 4x as much bullets is kind of a stretch.. they still have the same flesh and organs.

          • The Rout

            There’s a lot of variation in us humans though to be fair. For example a fat dude dropped a chainsaw on his own stomach and lived. A skinny guy would just be dead. The gene seeds take affect on every marine differently. May result in certain ones having better healing abilities, thicker black carapace etc.

            Also i think you may be thinking of the wounds characteristic too literally. Wounds are a measure of a models ability to take damage and keep fighting and don’t necessarily relate directly to how much punishment they can take before keeling over.

            Faster reflexes for example could mean the guy in question takes a glancing hit and keeps fighting because he took it on the shoulder rather than face . a particularly strong willed character could have a hole in his torso and keep fighting. This would be represented by wounds in game but the “reality” may be something completely different.

          • ZeeLobby

            Yeah, it’s just bad development. It tends to be given on a whim, and not really dictated in points cost. Hopefully 8th will remove some of these inconsistencies across the line.

          • Aezeal

            I hope that in a new edition saves are lowered but basic space marines get 2 wounds and terminators 3. I think working with doing more damage, having more wounds, a bit lower saves (so wounding is a bit more reliable) is nice. I think it’s one of the things that really works for me in AoS compared to fantasy, not sure why.. but I really like playing that way, much more wounds are dealt.. but they also have more wounds… I think it just seems as if more is happening in fights. I can remember old fantasy battles between 4 big blocks of troops with hardly any damage (and static combat result being relatively important) which just seemed like nothing was happening (and then suddenly due to combat result one fled and was overrun… a bit of an odd end to a battle where hardly anything seemed to happen.

          • ZeeLobby

            Totally agree that more wounds would be better. It’s kind of crazy that the game has existed for this long where only an extremely small set of the range is multi-wound. It would definitely give them a greater range to work with. I’m perfectly fine with it as long as BA terminators don’t end up with 5 wounds while Dark Angel terminators have 8 just cause.

            And honestly I only saw that in fantasy in 8th. Horde unit sizes were just stupid, and before that most armies ran many smaller units. If a unit was easily overran it was usually because of bad tactics, getting flanked by a second unit with no screens or charge redirects.

      • NNextremNN

        Well looking at the fluff rubrics are either intact or destroyed there is not half dead rubric.

        • Karru

          Two wounds would represent the fact that killing a Rubric Marine is way harder than a regular marine. A Power Armour might remain intact from a shot but the blow itself could knock out a regular Marine. These guys don’t have that problem. Only once their armour is completely penetrated they fall. Best way to represent this in my opinion is to give them two wounds to show that it takes a bit more fire power than usual to actually penetrate a power armour.

          • NNextremNN

            And two wound would also represent necrons rebuilding?

          • Karru

            They have their own special rule for that in the form of Reanimation Protocol. That explains their ability to take damage. How do you explain why a Grey Knight Paladin can suffer two wounds before he is killed while this Brother Terminator dies twice as fast?

            If they actually gave Thousand Sons the ability to bring back their dead in their regular units without taking a formation or special character, that would solve some of the problems they have.

          • NNextremNN

            Because they have special armor (they do), psychic powers (they have) or a bit better then normal Space Marines (they are in theory).

            Also I’m not good enough with rules and balancing most aren’t but still cry about their army being bad. I just think that giving rubrics 2 wounds is not the magical solution to all that’s wrong and I think that wouldn’t fit them. If the want to change them do something else.

    • The Rout

      Lone wolves, wulfen and TWC in my dex are multi wound.

    • Maitre Lord Ironfist

      Grey Knight Paladins (uber Terminators) got 2 Wounds/Model, with 3 Model / Squat + 55/Model extra with the option of an Apothekarius (who could take a Demonhammer for the lulz). They are at 165P or 185P with Apothekari and no further updates. So i thing, that the uber Terminators from 1k Sons could go with 2W each. It seams Strange too me, that my GK will oneshot them all.

  • BT

    Haven’t seen any of the rules, so going only off of the info posted here… I have to say I am disappointed. This should have been focused on the Rubic marines instead of the demons. The demons were never the problem, specially with Fateweaver out there. I mean, seriously, who has seen a Plain Jane Lord of Change on the table? I wanted to see Rubic Raptors, Obliterators, Havocs, etc. I wanted to see them be a viable force on their own, without Magnus or Ahriman having to be a auto-include to make them work.

    And no power/chainfists for Terminators? Seriously? They don’t even get Power Axes Bloat? That just makes no sense at all. It is freaking sad when base ‘Mark of Tzeentch’ Terminators are a better option. 8th better see a massive point increase for Loyalist Marines then to make them on par. If they keep them cheap then this is just a true failure on GW’s part IMO.

  • Randy Randalman

    There is no way a guess as to the value of Thousand Sons is going g to be anything less than embarrassing right now. 100%of all pre-release analysis regarding 40k have been proven false within a few months of play-testing. Because that’s the only way to know: play. All the theorizing, math-hammer, and groupthink/lemming regurgitation has never yielded accurate results.

    • E65

      Well said. Plus we have no idea how 8th edition will change TS and other armies game dynamics. Which makes me reluctant to buy anything at the moment until I see what happen next year. One would assume the Codex will be 8th ed safe, but we are talking GW so one must assume nothing.

      • Matthew LeBlanc

        One other thing to. People talk about no anti tank, but in 3.5 thousand sons only anti tanks where vehicles. And if using the formation of formations you still get vehicles for the anti tank. So the army to me still feels like the old army just with new rules.

        • Karru

          In 3.5, AT wasn’t nearly as important since it didn’t have AV13-14 Super Heavies with 6-9 Hullpoints running around like normal troops and the opponent didn’t have 300-500+pts worth of free Transports. Also, in 3.5 Thousand Sons had 2 Wounds, Aspiring Champions that had Mark of Tzeentch could buy Bolt of Change (Strength 8 AP 2, Range 24″) for 30pts. Also, Independent Characters, Chosen and Possessed all were automatically Sorcerers and passed all psychic tests they had to take.

          In other words, they had AT in very reliable form with the regular units. As I mentioned in the start, AT wasn’t nearly as important or it didn’t need to be so insane since high AV vehicles weren’t exactly common or their damage output wasn’t annihilating.

          Currently Thousand Sons Aspiring Sorcerers don’t have any reliable way to get AT. They have 1 in 6 chance to get Doombolt. Then they have to manifest it on a 4+ and spend their highly valuable Warp Dice that they could use to summon or bless their units. So it is unreliable and not worth it to use.

    • The Rout

      Hit downvote by mistake, upvoted to compensate 🙂

  • Prudent_Paratrooper

    On Magnus I think he is accurate on cost, He has Access to two S D Powers and he can take over a third with Treason.

    The TS I totally agree they should have either been bumped up in durability or dropped in price, but leaving them where they were points wise is going to have people leaving them on the shelf.

  • Latro_the_Zombie

    Sad thing is as it has always been is ye better off using your TS’s as plague marines.

  • Abe Killian

    Magnus is a Primarch! Not a Greater Demon or the like. Nothing of his amount of power has been seen in the 40K battlefield. He was never going to be cheap!

  • E65

    FFS!. STOP talking about a Giant monster like it was an imperative for the game!

    Said it before and I will say it again. Is it nice to have a Magnus model. Yup! Should it necessary for games. Nope!

    But gamers like you BBF keep banging on about giant monsters and big robots, how great they are and how many they’re going to run in an army. GW are very happy to provide these at ridiculous prices with ridiculous rules which bit by bit make ordinary infantry and tank units redundant (D Weapons R Us), effing up the game.

    So, a TS army is going to look something like this:

    Magnus
    Sorcerers x however many can be crammed in.
    token sad panda 5 man rubric squad.
    multiply by spamalot:
    Blue Horrors x turning into Pink Horrors x turning into Brimstone Horrors.

    • ZeeLobby

      And with only more primarchs on the horizon. It is truly no longer a 28mm wargame.

      • Drpx

        Agreed. First we got “Knight-class” models and now this.

      • SupPupPup

        Does it claim to be?

        • ZeeLobby

          It used to. Not so sure anymore. I mean it’s the scale the average trooper is modeled to, not that you see many of those anymore.

          • SupPupPup

            Then don’t endlessly complain about it?

            Better plastic tech means bigger, chubbier toys.

          • ZeeLobby

            Er…. better plastic tech means better detailed miniatures period (which clearly they’ve done for newer 28mm models). It doesn’t mean bigger chubbier toys. Thank god it doesn’t mean that. If you want to run state puff marshmallow men around the table, that’s your choice. I enjoyed the trench warfare represented in the majority of the novels and best represented at the 28mm scale.

            If the future of 40K is several foot-tall models being pushed around a comparably tiny 6’x4′ table, then I guess there’s no place for me or many of the gamers I know. Sad.

          • SupPupPup

            Im a Nurgle player.

            I bathe in my marhmallow beasties. The Glotkin is just to die for, and makes for an amazing GUCO with a bit of work. Perfection in plastic.

            To me 40k or Fantasy has never really played like the novels, so maybe it doesn’t bother me as much. The books were always WW1/WW2 in space when it came to battles, so I can see where you’re coming from.

            The game has moved away from that to something relatively unique, but you do make your own fun after all. Play the way you want to, hopefully the new Editions streamlined rules will allow this.

            You’ve been in the hobby long enough, to build some trenches and find an someone who shares your gameplay aspirations.

          • ZeeLobby

            Haha, then big blobby miniatures are for you. Don’t get me wrong, I think their big miniatures are fantastic aesthetically, for the most part. Every faction is getting one now, and they mostly outclass anything else on the table.

            And the problem isn’t playing with my friends. It’s going to the local store and playing random strangers. Something I used to really enjoy. Short of planned events, there are never PUGs anymore, becuase the game is just so desparate as far as power level goes. Sadly it’s too difficult for most people to make the trek with their entire collection to then perform the conversational balancing match. Just too much work, and too many other options that just work for 28mm models. I just enjoyed GW’s 28mm model games. They’re just not that anymore.

          • SupPupPup

            Maybe because Im from the UK, and there seems to be a somewhat more laid back attitude to these things (except in Crawley)

            But it tends to happen thusly: Person one on FB. (either the club or store page)

            Personage One: Oi m8 u wonna play some bloody warhammer?

            Personage Two: Alright, U gonna bring ur Knights?

            Personage One: Yeah Bruv, I Painted mine RIght Proppa I did.

            Personage Two: Leave it out M8, I’m playing Orks, How do you think Im meant to deal with that rubbish.

            Personage One: Of course, it would be completely remiss of me to ignore your feelings on this matter. We are after all relative strangers, who possibly after this joyous match may be considered friends.

            Persoange Two: Gud.

          • ZeeLobby

            LoL. Yeah. I think in this case a lot of it comes down to location. First off, most of the local GW’s around us have closed. Most of the gaming stores are privately owned and awesome, but there’s no easy forum to post to find games. Therefor on a day you wish to game, you just have to show up and hope that you find both players and lists that are agreeable. It’d be nice for GW to at least rectify the later, but they’ll probably never do that.

            Sadly I think it’s killing off a lot of the interest in 40K at least locally though. Some of these models are just a massive pain to transport anywhere as well, compared to armies I used to fit in a shoe box.

          • SupPupPup

            Try to start your own fb group. I can’t think of arranging a game without having some sort of place like that to see who’s up for games.

            Warhammer really does require people to be on the same page to have a good game. The system is just too broad to allow ‘just turn up’ games to be reliably enjoyable for both parties.

    • Pink Horrors turn into Blue ones .

  • Simon Chatterley

    The only saving grace to the daemons is the cost and transportation needed for the hundreds and hundreds of models you will need.

    But there is bound to be that ONE guy who does it and you’ll be wondering what on earth they were thinking

  • Nyyppä

    Well, TS are crap. Not because they have to be but because GW has no idea what something is worth in the game.

  • You know the point of this army is the psychic powers right? Rubrics are there as ablative wounds for your mind-bullet glass canon, and the Cult terminators just an upgraded version of that.

    I wish they were better myself, but if you want tough specialist Marines, just use Plaguemarines. Instead treat the Thousand Sons as a 5-wound level one Psyker with a really good shooting presence. Although they may be overcosted that way too… time for some maths!

    • Um… after doing some maths, the results are not in favour of Rubric marines.
      Well… that’s disappointing.

      • WJ84

        Ablative wounds are great when you’re getting shot. Not so great when you Perils, or have to issue and accept every challenge.

    • Malisteen

      If rubrics are their as ablative wounds only, their ludicrous points cost is doing them no favors in that department.

  • NagaBaboon

    I just… How dare you… I need to write a strongly worded…. *collapses, only just making it to the fainting couch before hand*

  • Nyyppä

    Has anyone else noticed how Magnus is modeled after this picture. What has been seen…. http://imgflip.com/s/meme/Black-Girl-Wat.jpg

  • MarcoT

    Whether Magnus is fairly priced or not is almost irrelevant; is he fun to play with? I highly doubt it. If he had a 4++ that couldn’t be improved, that’d be great. Then we can talk about fair point costs. But a possible re-rollable 2++ (after snap shots!) with no real fielding restrictions is too insane for any pricing. Unless you have a counter he’ll win the game, as he seems a self-contained deathstar. 40k has too many of those units already, so adding one more sucks regardless of points.

    I’ll surely pick him up at some point, but I’ll have to figure out how to make his inclusion fun for everyone.

    edit: as an example, AoS (which I refer to a lot lately) has units of 400+ points too, but always killable by even the most pathetic of units. 40k needs a big dose of that.

    • Thomas Gardiner

      Exactly this. Even 1000pts isn’t enough for a unit that is, essentially, invincible.

      • The Rout

        He is pretty invincible but I own 4×5 squad of SoS and will be expanding that for fighting ts. Once you take away his warp charge he’s of very little use outside of being a combat monster. If he lands in will kill him in one turn with half the points…

    • SupPupPup

      I wonder if the new edition will put him in a more AoS style situation. The book might make more sense, in the face of a new simplified magic phase and the move towards larger, more easier to kill monsters.

    • Alpharius

      You don’t know the rules and are crying about nothing. Shut your ignorant yapper.

      • Mira Bella

        We do know the rules at this point.
        Maybe you don’t, but we certainly do. (Thanks Frontline!)
        Also. A little bit less @rseholery from your side would be appreciated.
        Thank you.

        • Alpharius

          There is no rerollable 2++, shut up.

        • Alpharius

          I
          Am
          Alpharius

  • Thomas Gardiner

    I’m sorry, but if you want a Flying Monstrous Creature with a re-rollable 2++ and Magnus’ statline for less than 500pts, you clearly have no concern for the health of the game.

    I’m already dreading having to face Magnus. It doesn’t matter what he costs because his rules are insane and render him essentially unkillable (unless you play Grey Knights, MAYBE).

  • Rob brown

    Just few thoughts as a life long collector of all things Tzeentchian.

    – Magnus shouldn’t be for any old 1850 point game. He’s he primarch and should be fielded in keeping with his station. I.e. in epic battles or where he is the focus of the mission.

    – TS rubrics have had an opportunity for a 3++ saves and rerolling to hits of 1. For no additional points. We need to manage expectations. Normal marines also get VOTLW.

    – Sorcerers can reroll perils, generate charges on a 3+, and use an additional power. This goes a long way to de-risk psychic attacks. This isn’t an army full of heavy weapons you blow things up with mind bullets.

    We always want more but I’m really looking forward to fielding these on the table. The daemons are an extra flavour that complements the power of the sorcerers.

    F’thank-abo N’guthu Tzeentch!

    • The Rout

      I would like to see a big psychic backlash for all ts if he dies to balance him out. Maybe make them manifest on a 5 up?

    • Magnus will show up in 1850 point games for sure.

  • SupPupPup

    So, what if next summer they release a new Edition, which has a simpler psychic phase that this book has been constructed with in mind, and a more AoS style force Org. (allowing bigger monsters)

  • Admiral Raptor

    I was so excited for this release. I really should have known better :(.

    Oh well, at least I got to save some money.

    • Knight_of_Infinite_Resignation

      I know how you feel. I don’t want my army list chosen for me with formations and decurions to get some benefit. If I wanted to play a game of combis and hyper complex rule interactions I’d play Warmachine. I just want decent troops that are appropriately costed I can field in a CAD.

      Currently list writing feels like an excercise in cost accounting or programming Fortran. It ain’t fun.

  • Magnus has 2 different D weapon powers he can shoot and manifests warp charges on a 2+, plus the various ways to get him to a 2++ rerollable…

    Oh and the terminators are actually pretty decent, their sorcerer is basically an HQ sorcerer at a major discount who comes with MoT termie body guard. The rotor cannon is also good fun.

  • V0iddrgn

    I know Chaos has gotten the shaft before but I feel like it’s too early to say whether or not this release is balls. You got a beatstick Primarch and still cry about his points cost in relation to other units that are undercosted. I say, 1) wait for 8th edition to justify some of the costs (eg. 5th ed. Necrons where NS’s were super dumb at first) and 2) other OP models/units need a good bludgeoning with the ole nerf bat and a price hike. The truth is, many players find Magnus’ points cost fair for what he does and therefore there will always be differences of opinion.

  • DeadlyYellow

    Now to wait a year and a half to be disappointed by Nurgle Daemonkin.

  • SacTownBrian

    Magnus demands that you buy six boxes of Burning of Prospero to get 30 Sisters of Silence on the board. So Sayeth GW…

  • Peter

    There’s a problem with these kind of article’s, it’s that you can’t decide if a new army is worth it or not before it even comes out and is actually been played awhile, your just basing the worth on rules and points that have been leaked/revealed.
    In my opinion these kind of article’s should be left till it’s been played a fair amount of time and against different armies and builds, not until then can an army be seen worth it or not, especially if a unit is actually over costed or not by how it performs in reality.

    • Prudent_Paratrooper

      Here’s the flaw with what you’re saying. TS the core unit of the TS army, costs THE EXACT SAME. There is no change to the base unit and the only upgrades either shorten their range to increase their price or require so many models and costs so much that people wont be able to take it in any noticeable numbers.

      The simple fact is the core unit hasn’t really changed and because of that any problems it had before this release it will have after this release.

  • DayVision

    I play Chaos, I have a little over 20k pts of chaos, mostly CSM. It really annoys me when the community writes off legitimate complaints as whining. But this article looks like a lot of whining even to me.

    Magnus is expensive, expensive enough to limit your army options pretty significantly but not over costed. 18in D beam is really strong, he could fly up and shred a cluster of Riptides and stormsurges. Probably not drop 650pts in one round but he will get his money’s worth. You will see Magnus flying circus.

    The rubric Marines are a bit underwhelming but the benefits of the formations (blessings give +1 to invulnerable) are pretty solid and I would say leaves them as solid. Multi wound for those points would be severely undercosted.

    The terminators are the same cost (per model, 50pts more because the sorcerer that leads them) as imperial assault terminators with the same stats except they get a fully fledged lvl2 sorcerer in terminator armor to lead them. They trade lightning claws or thss for ap3 combi-bolters and power swords, not an amazing trade but it has its strengths. Again the formations can buff them additionally for blessings but the sorcerer with this group has access to a lot of disciples, run biomancy for smite and maybe endurance? 2+/3++ fnp 4+ would be great. Again multi wound would be way undercosted.

    The sorcerers are really what TS is about and while they are expensive they are really strong with access to a lot of disciplines.

    The codex isn’t perfect, in fact it has 2 main weaknesses armour 2 and vehicles. Both of which Magnus could take care of or allies could solve, I am thinking some obliterators might solve those problems. I like this codex because it plays well to a particular set of strengths (ap3 and psykers) requiring creative army building and strategy to address different opponents rather than something that is good against everything *cough* grav *cough*.

  • Alpharius

    Models are great, rules are terrible, business as usual, bring on the Apocalypse.

  • Agent OfBolas

    Codex Supplement: Thousand Missed Opportunities.

    1. The book is terrible, without a SINGLE FIX for CSM book.
    2. The book price tag is a joke
    3. The book will be outdated and useless in Q2 2017 along with new edition of WH40k … just like EoT books went “offline” after AoS born.

    I don’t believe that GW will do anything good/playable for CSM. They just love to create more and more overpowered rules for their favorite books.

    Just imagine, that Eldars and CSM were written by the same guy. Sounds impossible, right?

    • Defenestratus

      Agreed. You should just throw yourself off a bridge now and end it all.

      • Agent OfBolas

        nope.

        I would simply stick to my Space Marine or TAU army instead of wasting time for playing CSMs.

  • BurpinforDayz

    If I’m correct then any units in the detachment receive +1 to their invuln if AFFECTED by a blessing. If it is the case all you would need to do is cast cursed earth and Magnus would have the 2+ re rollable.

    • Defenestratus

      If Magnus has MoT (I honestly haven’t cared enough about Chaos to look it up) then he can’t get better than a 3++.

      • BurpinforDayz

        He doesn’t.

        • Defenestratus

          Which makes no sense whatsoever but ok.

  • Zack Seiders

    What I read on warlord traits/ relics, the exalted sorcerers might be able to give benefits to a squadron, like giving the basic rubrics the ability to essentially jump as well as overwatch (covers the s+p problem). Or giving the warlord and his squad deepstrike… if they already have deepstrike then they do not scatter “pointing at rubric terminators for that one” (combine the exalted sorcerer with squad leader sorcerer means they are able to use their nasty powers on your delicate back lines “doom bolt or the d beam on what ever you do not want shooting at your guys… if psyker phase goes well that is.”)

  • 1) Magnus is very expensive. Yes I agree fully. Magnus is overcosted. I disagree with. He’s costed for what he can do. The problem is that for what he can do and his cost he is not appropriate for standard tournament 40k. I agree fully that he is too expensive for standard tournament 40k but making him cheaper would be making him OP, and I’m really burnt on things being OP. Hes going to be more for large point apoc style games.

    2) Rubrics being overcosted. I agree. They are still overcosted. Their template weapons only being AP4 is why I will largely never use them because the bulk of my opponents in my meta are 3+ save. They are handy vs hordes but you’ll get at most one shot with those template weapons before being swamped.

    3) Terminators being overcosted. I agree. Them being useless because they lack AP2 weapons – I disagree. It makes them ineffective against that particular unit that is 2+, but I disagree because for me personally those units are not common. They exist, but not in droves – and I would simply not try to out combat 2+ save troops with these guys.

    4) Demons being the shining star again. I agree.

    Overall this is a fun army for casuals and campaigns (my predominant environment) so as along time fan of thousand sons (they are why i played 40k 16 years ago) I am getting the new models and playing them in a campaign.

    If I was a tournament player, I would not be using this army though.

    CAVEAT: if the new 40k next year has armor rending like AOS, then these units may become more useful.

    • BurpinforDayz

      Well cursed earth+ Magnus= Basically invincible Magnus

      • granted. However a lot of victory conditions are not about killing anymore, but holding ground. Invincible Magnus is 1/3 of your army by himself and will have a hard time scorching 1/3 of the enemy army and preventing them from holding objectives by himself.

        • BurpinforDayz

          True, so I’d spend most of my other points on renegades and heretics troops or other squishy units in fact if I spent under 500 points I would get 150 4+ FNP zombies with a Demagogue and disciples, more than enough points left to fit in some daemons and the like.

        • Defenestratus

          1ks won’t have any problem capturing objectives with horrors all over the place.

          • Sure. But you have to deal with 1/3 less horrors if you take Magnus.

      • Agent OfBolas

        And I would be delighted to play an SM army with a free transports detachment.

        Just spam, the cheapest units and fill the battlefield with Razorbacks/DropPods – for as long as they are for Troops, they are objective secured.

        Magnus is not going to kill them all = you win on points. And with such insane amount of free heavy weapons, I bet you can pew pew something also.

        • BurpinforDayz

          I think Magnus could kill quite a few.

          • Agent OfBolas

            if game lasts for 5 turns, it would be 5 free transports max.

          • BurpinforDayz

            Why would that be? He knows 15 psychic powers and isn’t the whole army. He can cast 6 powers per turn.

          • WJ84

            Only if he hit one transport each turn with his 18″ D Beam. He also has another D shot, 4D6 Heavy Bolter shots and can make one of your units shoot your own units.

    • generalchaos34

      Im really really disappointed that once again daemons got some sort of boon when there was a chance to actually do something with CSM and they dropped the ball.

    • Karru

      I too was on the “No AP2 weapons so it’s useless” train for a long time until I actually started to think about the rarity of 2+ saves. There are so few actual units that get a 2+ save, it’s usually just some character that has it. These days I prefer a Power Sword or a Lightning Claw over a Power Axe any day since it can actually damage units before they can swing at me in some cases.

      As a casual gamer myself, this release was a slight disappointment mostly due to the “spam into oblivion” approach that GW took with it. I personally don’t like to spam same unit over and over again, but in order to get all the rules out from the Thousand Sons, I am forced to take several units of Rubric Marines and Scarab Occult Terminators.

      Then again, I have two reasons why I haven’t started playing them even though Thousand Sons are my favourite Legion. First of all, the price is absurd even by GW standards but more importantly I want to see all my options. I want to see what the Traitor Legions book gives CSM players before I make my final decision of what CSM army I should start to collect.

      • Agent OfBolas

        1k Sons are terrible, even in “fluffy games of beer and snacks”.

        • Karru

          Not really. Considering that my friend runs a full Iron Warriors Army with 3×10 Chaos Space Marine Squads, a Warpsmith, 10-man Squad of Havocs, two Vindicators and 0 Obliterators and is still winning games, 1k Sons still have a decent shot.

          • Prudent_Paratrooper

            No they don’t if he ran the same thing with a TS army he would have 3 8 man units of TS, and that’s it.

      • Chapter Master, Riptide, Wolf Lord on T-Wolf, etc.

        • Hunlow

          Aren’t those all things you would be attacking with psychic powers though? There are a lot of AP2 witchfires available and psychic shriek to deal with those threats from range. Melee not so much but they do have that daemon weapon that is AP 2 which I think will murder MCs and GMC.

  • Andrew

    “Overcosted” is not a word. I realize that’s perhaps a minor thing in the grand scheme of things, but the second I see an article written with words that aren’t actual words I tend to assume the writer is not that bright and thus his opinion is probably not worth the electrons its written with. The word you wanted was “overpriced” as in “Magnus is overpriced.” Go buy yourself a dictionary and a thesaurus for crying out loud.

    • BurpinforDayz

      Please explain to me how you write with electrons. I haven’t quite understood that part.

      • Andrew

        I was going to say “the paper it’s written on” but since it’s on a website I thought “electrons” was more appropriate. I mean after all as you type into the computer your turning key strokes into data that is transmitted.

        • BurpinforDayz

          Fair enough.

        • TenDM

          Since you seem like you might actually appreciate the insight electrons isn’t correct. Technically it’s written on a database that’s on a server, and that information would probably be stored on a hard drive in a strip of magnetic bits, but it’s also stored on a bunch of other places.
          The most appropriate version would probably be ‘the RAM it’s stored on’ but again it’s stored in a bunch of other places so it doesn’t quite work.
          The kicker is that almost every component in the chain is worth a reasonable amount of money. The expression only really works because paper is dirt cheap and disposable.

          Maybe ‘it’s not worth the [file size] it took to download it’? But you’re not going to bother checking file sizes every time you want to say it. There’s ‘not worth the time it took to fetch it from the database’ but most people won’t get that it takes a fraction of a second to fetch the data.
          I’d say ‘not worth the click it took to get here’ is the way to go. It’s not the same but it’s simple and expresses the same low regard for the information.

    • euansmith

      As English is an evolving language, then “overcosted” is a perfectly cromulent word that further embiggens the vocabulary. 😉

      • Andrew

        I see what you did there… though I’m at a loss for what “cromulent” is supposed to mean unless its a substitute for “eloquent” ?

        Though on a serious note if someone is a writer who wants their opinions to be taken seriously by the audience then they should probably use grammatically correct English. Hell, most word processing programs do this for you.

        • Prudent_Paratrooper

          Definition: It occurs when a product/service consumes a high (low) level of resources but is reported to have a low (high) cost. … Product cost cross-subsidization exists when one undercosted (overcosted) product results in at least one other product being overcosted (undercosted).Mar 17, 2014

          And “cromulent” means valid, or legitimate.

    • Tirelion

      In an effort to sound superior your comment instead makes you sound pedantic at best. Perhaps you should do your homework before making any assertions as to the intelligence of another.

    • Actually overcosted is correct .

  • Defenestratus

    OH good Lord Almighty.

  • Dan

    Seems to me there are a few more tricks up their sleeves than most are giving credit to, though I’m not sure if that’s enough.

    There were a lot of innocuous powers added people aren’t talking about as much. The bonus to invul save ability making you hit back with s3 ap3 blind attacks on passed saves. “Warp Siphon” to get more WC. ones to let you re-roll to hit on a unit or pick which dice comes up on a single roll. Don’t forget those apply to those reaper cannons, not just D weapons like everybody’s freaking out about, which do have rending. That means you are more likely to get 12-14 on your anti-tank rolls. Silver tower shots on exalted sorcerers… etc. What about the new warpstorm table? I haven’t seen it yet, what does it do?

    I don’t predict TS are going to be top-tier or anything, especially with most of their shenanigans being based on the way-too-random psychic tables, but I think they’re going to be a *bit* more playable than most are complaining about.

    • Agent OfBolas

      They have nothing for close combat as you can’t change weapon option on sorcerers and terminators. Outside Magnus, they have nothing to deal with AV (2 S8 AP3 shoots from Ocult Terminators are… not enough?)

      Lore is OK, but nothing special.

      The formation with rerollable 1s is cool, but requires a ton on points to field.

      This book boosts a bit Daemons, but for CSMs… nothing changes.

      • BurpinforDayz

        Power swords aren’t too bad for CC. As for Anti tank, they don’t have much but they do have the hellfire/hellstorm (can’t remember the name) missile pods.

        • Hunlow

          Yeah, true but what is that one guy gonna do vs three knight Titans or any super heavy vehicle with 2 S8 AP2 shots? They might be good for popping transports but in this land of super heavies pure TSons are gonna struggle.

          • SupPupPup

            Could Magnus deal with them?

          • BurpinforDayz

            Yup Magnus could.

          • Die horribly

    • Prudent_Paratrooper

      S3 AP3 hits aren’t there. Warp Siphon is a single target blessing that you are forced to roll on a still pretty bad table to get. Using reaper cannons would be stupid to take out any vehicle. The pick a dice power does not exist. the new warp storm table? 9: Roll a D6 to roll a D6 to Roll a D6, for every unit on the table.

      No they won’t the only way they will be playable is if you stack a stupid amount of Sorcerers in your army and have them all roll on Tzeentch Discipline and then proceed to turn half your enemies into spawn and take over the other half and fire them at their own army.

      • Dan

        Welp I don’t have a copy of Wrath of Magnus so I can only comment on the rumors that have leaked. Taken at face value that’s how they read but it seems like you have more accurate information so I guess it sucks to be TSons and I might never pick 40K back up again.

        Thanks GeeDubs.

  • Chet Atkinson

    The Magnus model lacks character for me 🙁 The rubric marines look awesome (mostly)

  • Hunlow

    I’m picking up my copy of the supplement tomorrow along with the new scarab occult termies, Ahriman and *fingers crossed* the TSons dice. You guys are bumming me out! I have to concede though they don’t look to be a power house army. Does someone know if you run the base formation with 2 sorcerers, 1 rubric squad and 1 scarab occult squad if there is a way to have them harness powers on a 3+?

    • Prudent_Paratrooper

      Not in the base formation, the War Coven/Ahriman Exiles formations let you do that.

      • Hunlow

        Well that is probably the most disappointing thing I have heard about this release. Do you by chance know what units make up those two formations?

  • Christie Bryden

    one thing that must be rememebered about magnus is hes the most powerful psycher in the game now, AND immune to pearls of the warp, IMMUNE

    • Prudent_Paratrooper

      I don’t really think many will argue that a 2++ rerollable, ML 5, harness on 2+, IWND, and Immune to perils Model is going to perform badly.

    • Never throw your pearls before swine .

  • MechBattler

    Hows about we write our own Chaos Fandex and publish it for all to use for free? I’m starting to feel the urge to take matters into my own hands.

  • Dave Ledbetter

    i feel these statements to be correct the Tsons got alot of hype and are a much loved army …they deserved better.