Codex Traitor Legions: The Death Guard

death-guard-logo-horz

BoLS wraps up our Codex Traitor Legions coverage today with a look at the Nurgle’s own – the Death Guard’s rules!

traitor-logo-horz

The Traitor Legions are upon us! Fourteen years after 2002’s release of the beloved CSM 3.5 codex full rules for all nine traitor legions are here! These are each a unique army that will open up the game to dedicated CSM players who find the default codex a little plain.  Every one of the nine gets some serious love.

GW has pulled off giving each Legion a distinct feel via 9 sets of Legion restrictions and special rules, warlord traits, relics (some very very distinctive and fluffy), and of course a detachment.  While I personally think some are more fluffy and cool than others, everyone got some of the GW design studio love.  There are however some standouts that will be altering the meta.  More on those this week.

Now, onto what you came for, let’s crack open the covers and see what makes the Death Guard sick, I mean tick:

traitor-dg-1

Behold the basic Death Guard Legion restrictions and special abilities.

traitor-dg-det

Meet the Death Guard Legion Detachment – the Vectorium.

traitor-dg-art

Finally here’s one sample relic, the pestilent Dolorous Knell

armor-death-guard

They Will Not Die

The Death Guard are back with a sickly vengeance. The jury is still out on whether they are THE most potent legion in the new Codex, but Grandfather Nurgle has been spreading his warm infectious love upon his favorite children.  They are certainly one of the best in the book.

The Legion special rules are solid and to the point for a Cult Legion. We have only Mark of Nurgle allowed (duh) plus mandatory and free Veterans of the Long War. Typhus is your only named character allowed,  Daemon princes must take Nurgle powers and marks.  In exchange for this, you get Plague Marines moved to TROOPS choices and all your VotLR infantry gain Fearless, Feel No Pain, -1 Initiative (except Typhus and Plague Marines). Most importantly all VotLR gain Relentness!  Ok, now let’s think about this for a second… see it yet… HAVOCS!  Death Guard Armies now will be full of official Plague Marines and a bunch of “Really Sick Marines” who can move and fire heavy weapons.  Remember back in the 3.5 codex when the Death Guard were limited to only using Heavy Bolters… well now they can take anything from the standard CSM codex. Just think of the many uses a squad with relentness: Las-Cannons, Missile Launchers, Autocannons and even Heavy Bolters can find.

Moving onto the potent Vectorium Detachment we get an improvement of Feel No Pain and Stealth of ALL units in the detachment if they are more than 18″ away from the firer. That +1 cover save for your entire army is going to come in very handy, especially on top of all that Feel No Pain with rerolls.

Moving onto our sample Relic, the Dolorous Knell may be the real tabletop Bell of Lost Souls. It’s got a cool Fear radius effect that won’t radically alter the game, but is still very flavorful in a not too pricey relic.  Grandfather Nurgle approves!

Grade: A+

Codex Supplement: Traitor Legions $35

60030102014_traitorlegionscodexstdedeng01

 

The Traitor Legions of the Chaos Space Marines have waged terrible wars of hate and vengeance upon the Imperium of Mankind for ten thousand years. From the Daemon worlds of the Eye of Terror, they plot the destruction of the empire they once helped to build. They have neither forgotten nor forgiven the loyalists, nor the False Emperor whom they serve. These warriors will not rest until the galaxy is burning, and the Emperor’s putrid carcass is cast down from the Golden Throne into the filth where it belongs.

Codex Supplement: Traitor Legions is a 136-page, full-colour softback supplement to Codex: Chaos Space Marines. It contains a wealth of additional content and rules that any Chaos Space Marines army can use, with a huge array of rules for all nine of the Traitor Legions.

In The Book

– Datasheets for the following models:
– Kharn the Betrayer
– Ahriman
– Exalted Sorcerer
– Tzaangors
– Rubric Marines
– Scarab Occult Terminators
– Khorne Lord of Skulls
– Magnus the Red

– 26 Formations for Chaos Space Marines
– Chaos Warband
– Maelstrom of Gore
– The Lost and the Damned
– Helforged Warpack
– Heldrake Terror Pack
– Cult of Destruction
– Fist of the Gods
– Raptor Talon
– Terminator Annihilation Force
– Favoured of Chaos
– Trinity of Blood
– The Chosen of Abaddon
– The Bringers of Despair
– The Hounds of Abaddon
– Daemon Engine Pack
– Cyclopia Cabal
– The Tormented
– Black Legion Warband
– War Cabal
– War Coven
– Tzaangor Warherd
– Sekhmet Conclave
– Ahriman’s Exiles
– Rehati War Sect
– Plague Colony
– Kakophoni;

– Chaos Artefacts, Warlord Traits, Tactical Objectives and an exclusive Detachment for each of the 9 Traitor Legions;

– Updated Disciplines of Tzeentch, Nurgle and Slaanesh, as well as the Sinistrum, Heretech, Ectomancy and Geomortis Psychic Disciplines;

– Armoury of the Chaos Space Marines.

~We’ve had a great time bring you peeks and coverage of Codex Traitor Legions and there is SO MUCH MORE in the book. Go pick it up this weekend!

  • Nyyppä

    Now this seems to be ok. I still don’t get the need to add fear to everything since almost everything is fearless or better.

    • mike

      In most metas comps almost everything is fearless or better true, but I wouldn’t say most units are.

      • Nyyppä

        Not straight away, no, but things like preasts for AM are widely available and I think widely used too.

        • georgelabour

          I’ve never really used them. I just hurl more bodies and tanks at them.

          The way the God-Emperor/Omnissiah/Hamtaro intended.

          • Nyyppä

            Roger that. I think your way is more entertaining than what most seem to do.

    • Dennis J. Pechavar

      Since I play against Space Marines most of the time this relic sadly means nothing to me.

      • Nyyppä

        You and almost everyone else.

  • 301stFeinminsterArmoured

    Sad, I wanted to know if any of the IW Relics I had my eye on were going to make my Purge list any meaner.

  • foulestfeesh13 .

    1.”Daemon princes must take Nurgle powers and marks.”
    This is not true the rule says psykers may chose to take all your powers from the Nurgle discipline.
    2.”Moving onto the potent Vectorium Detachment we get an improvement of feel no pain and shrouding of all units in the detachment if they are more than 18″ away from the firer. That +2 cover save for your entire army is going to come in very handy.”
    Again this is not accurate the detachment gives you stealth not shrouded.

    • dark-tadpole

      Daemon princes have to have the mark of nurgle, doesn’t this mean they have to take nurgle powers?

      • foulestfeesh13 .

        They have to take at least 1 from the Nurgle discipline but they don’t have to take all of their powers from it, unless they are only mastery level 1.

        • Walter Vining

          shhhhh its changing…..

      • William Ferguson

        at least 1 and up to half in the codex. now you may take all your powers from the nurgle psychic discipline

        • Peter Lustig

          Daemon Princes don’t use marks of chaos they are daemons!

  • PregoCleric

    Nice! Super excited for this! Any chance of knowing what the Core/Auxiliary/Command choices for the detachment are?

    • Core is the warband and plague colony (chaos lord & 3-7 units of plague marines), command is just lord of the legion (lord/sorcerer/apostle/dp), aux is lost and the damned, helforged Warpack, heldrake terror pack, cult of destruction, fist of the gods, raptor talon, terminator annihilation force, favored of chaos, and finally 1-3 units of spawn

      • PregoCleric

        Awesome, thanks man! Was banking on those spawn for cheap auxiliary tax. 😀 Means that running the Vectorium (with a warband and spawn) is possible in small 1k games.

  • grumzimus

    Well… As a chaos player… I can’t help but think that this is a tad OP. More that the the other legions don’t get the same level of buffs that these guys do. Can’t complain too much though as I’ll be able to try these guys out. But… That’s a LOT of rerolls. The shrouding as well… Will need to check that out when I have access to the actual book later today.

    • Agent OfBolas

      GW games / Balance

      Pick one.

      • Nyyppä

        It does not have to be so…though GW does nothing to mitigate the problem…

    • Pyrrhus of Epirus

      its not like the loyalists have alot of choice when it comes to the tournament best chapter from the SM book. You either take white scars for the scouting, or ultras for extra doctrines, the other “legions” in the SM book never see a tournament field (atleast by a player who hopes to win). While we could hope that the CSM legions are balanced, if you really sit down and ask yourself, you knew it wasnt going to happen here either.

      • Shawn

        Which I could up vote this half-a-dozen times. I play Iron Hands. It saddens me that I am locked into playing one or two chapters just to compete. Of course, if all events were Highlander, it wouldn’t be all that much of an issue.

  • __

    wouldn’t slow and purposeful be a more appropriate rule than relentless for a nurgle legion?

    • Knight_of_Infinite_Resignation

      Slow and purposeful makes Nugle daemons almost unplayable. Relentless better reflects the slow inexorable advance whilst firing characteristic of DG.

      • Flan man

        Except that slow an purposeful would effect chaos space marines, not daemons…

        • BurpinforDayz

          At first glance it would seem so but in the fluff Plague marines are described to be remarkably fast and agile for their bulk as they still maintain their astartes physiology. They are hindered only slightly (as reflected by reduced initiative) due to the deteriation of their ability to sense. Nurgle daemons on the other hand are shambling corpses spurred on only by the demonic powers.

  • Latro_the_Zombie

    Need to correct the post, you say they get shrouded at 18″ but its stealth

  • Agent OfBolas

    O lol !!!

    25 points for FEAR ITEM :D:D:D
    CSMs at it’s finest.

    This shows how “good” GW knows their game.

    • kingcobra668

      Oh boy, This Guy.

      Have you tried… Not playing 40k?

      All you do is complain.

      • Nyyppä

        He has a valid point. Most units that a re used either do not care about fear of are immune to it. 25p for an item that is almost every time totally useless is a bit much.

      • Agent OfBolas

        I’m not complaining. Death Guard rules seems perfect, just the “fear” item for 25 points in game where 90% of things you see on table is totally immune to Fear – it a great joke, really funny for all CSM players.

  • Latro_the_Zombie

    DG are by far and away the best rules for the legions. Good job i’v got a whole army of them i’v faithfully been playing with for 15 years 😀

    • ZeeLobby

      GW giveth and GW taketh away. Just depends on the eb and flow of time.

      • Nyyppä

        It’s a pure coincidence. It’s not like they make plans for things like this. 😀

      • Shawn

        And I wish they’d have given my Iron Hands re-roll-able FNP. I can be just as bionic-y as they can be plague-y.

  • unearth

    Iron Warriors would need and deserve the Relentless rule. Really. WTF Games Workshop.

    • Latro_the_Zombie

      Literally nothing stopping you using the DG rules for you IW army.

      • unearth

        I’m not even playing chaos at all, but I like consitency.

        • ZeeLobby

          GW games / consistency

          Can’t have both, lol.

          • Shawn

            Especially with their product lines. Some factions get dice, some don’t, some get maelstrom cards, some don’t. Heck, some factions get special characters and some don’t. No, consistency isn’t really big on their agenda. If it was, perhaps the rules might be balanced, lol.

      • Nyyppä

        Well, no if one does not care about playing IW. You do not play IW if you use DG rules.

  • Karru

    The clear winners of the Traitor Legions book. One of the examples that Cult Marines are overpriced, since the regular CSM squads with Mark of Nurgle are currently better than Plague Marines. Now that they have finally fixed regular CSM squads, here’s hoping that they move on to Cult Marines next. But overall, this release has been top notch when CSM releases are concerned. I really like the approach they did with this and finally gave CSM players what they have longed for since 4th edition codex was dropped, Legion rules.

    I believe that this is the start of GW finally realising what direction they should take with CSM. This has been the biggest issue with GW and CSM since 4th edition dropped. What it seemed that GW wanted CSM to focus on characters instead of the army as a whole, which does make sense when you look at how CSM forces usually are led and operate. What doesn’t make sense, that GW decided that there was no difference between how characters led these armies, which led to all CSM armies becoming very bland since there was barely any difference outside unit choices.

    Finally we have something to represent our chosen Legions in the table outside painting them in different colours. Here’s hoping that we see either a campaign book or something like this for Renegades. Of course, I would love to see GW go wild with it. I have already played around with the idea of the Renegade Supplement being a SM supplement and not CSM. It would remove Chapter Tactics completely, give them Marks to buy, or something similar to show that they are dedicated to a specific god or not if you want, and then they are Allies of Convenience for CSM. This way CSM would finally have access to SM arsenal while still not being able to break the game with broken combos.

    The idea of the book is to represent the fresh renegades, chapters that have just decided to denounce their oath to the Emperor and do whatever they want. There are so many renegades appearing in the fluff and it makes absolutely no sense why they would just abandon all of their fancy new tools.

    • BT

      But what about those who go renegade without going to chaos? One could look at the Badab War for an example of that… Mantis Warriors and Lamentors went renegade without going to Chaos and they were even allowed to rejoin the Imperium when they realised they were duped by the Astral Claws.
      One can argue that it is possible that the Claws themselves were not even Chaos worshippers, just Huron, till they followed him to the point of no return.

      • Karru

        Then you play them as regular marines? If they go renegade because they want power for example, but not to serve the Chaos Gods, it’s not like they would ally themselves with CSM or Daemons. There is also probability that they didn’t abandon their normal tactics, so using Chapter Tactics would still be viable. The reason why Renegade Chapters that decided to join Chaos “would suddenly forget them” is that they now focus more on certain aspects. For example, a Chapter now dedicated to Khorne cares more about bloodshed than actually coordinating with his “battle brothers”. The idea of the renegade book is to represent those Chapters that decided to join Chaos and maybe dedicated themselves to a particular God.

        • It’s almost like FW showed us exactly how to do it by giving all the badab chapters rules that use the SM or BA book!

    • Nyyppä

      Only one legion has fixed CSM which still leaves 8 to be fixed and to be honest CSM fans wanted a balanced fun legions, not nurgle + chaff.

  • Jerin Price

    As an avid and die hard Night Lords fan, this entire book is a massive disappointment.

    The Death Guard however are a solid kick in the nuts.

    What do NL get?

    Fear, night vision, stealth. With a 25 point artifact all your death guard not only get fear but they do it better than the night lords. If the enemy is over 18 inches away you also have stealth. That’s not counting the fearless, relentless, and fnp bonuses you’re getting. In other words, DG get all of the night lords bonuses plus 3 more.

    Oh sorry, 1/3rd of your games you will get to reduce enemy cover saves by 1 for 1 turn. Night vision really balances things out…

    I’ve been eagerly awaiting a chance to play Night Lords and lol and behold my prayers are answered with a book dedicated to allowing the player to represent any of the legions. Woe betide Night Lords fans because apparently the best way to represent the night lords is to screw them over. How dare I not be playing one of the important legions.

    My rant is not over but my post is.

    • BT

      Only thing I can say that might help is that you will still be able to play a better NL list out of this book than any other chaos book you can use. I feel they screwed over the NLs when they changed them from Khorne to Undivided. It removed some of their flavor.

      • Jerin Price

        Don’t get me wrong. I love this books existence but it feels like everyone got candy but the night lords got licorice. Then to top it off they took some of our candy to give to someone who got full size reeses cups.

        • amaximus167

          I love licorice!

          • Hunlow

            You’re an animal.

    • NightShade2k

      I think your a tad over reacting, if your playing for fluff reasons your NL actually have rules now, not to mention they can take mass jump infantry as troops, yes we all know CSM units feel over-costed but the point is now you can play a night lords army, who says the night lords were as strong as death guard anyway? there were less DG in the heresy in comparison to the NL but it doesnt state which was the stronger legion in terms of bearing arms and i see the same argument made in 30k with the ranking of the primarch special rules, sadly you are undivided yes so no marks but don’t underestimate what you do have i played a double skyhammer recently with the raptor talon with a very low model count and 2 helldrakes as my only support for 26 warp talons a jump lord and 3 sets of 10 cultists and absolutely decimated the marines (this not being the first time either) i think if i had had NL rules i would of been even more effective and brutal as i could of rerolled failed charge rolls…part of your NL rules… Not every legion will be as good as every other and as an IW player i feel that yeh we could be a little better but seriously i dont think you have been “Screwed over” by getting rules…you just dont have AS good rules as all of the legions… if you are a player that wants to be super competitive easy go Cabal + KDK + Vraks heretics… Chaos and wins!, if you want to play NL you have a very viable way to do so now…play it, enjoy it you may find its pretty fun!

      • ZeeLobby

        There’s fluff and then there’s a game. Think about any board game you ever played. You wouldn’t want the choice of color or shape of your game piece to instantly reduce your chances of winning. If it did so you’d at least want the game rules to state that your picking a bad piece. A lot of people pick a legion/faction based on the awesome fluff. Nowhere in the fluff does it say “and the Night Lords were worse than Death Guard in every way”. Some people made these choices back when there was no difference between the legions. They could intentionally nerf themselves to take fluffy units, but their legion was not defined as being inferior in the rules.

        The correct move by GW would have been to balance the legion rules so each of their loyal followers wouldn’t suddenly be playing with the bad piece. They could have done this. Sure it would have requires thought and effort, but it wouldn’t have been impossible.

        • NightShade2k

          While true Zee, the issue is with the NL in respect the formation from TH already gives a minus 2 to LD of an enemy unit when charging with 2 units, and NL give minus 2 to LD so thats already minus 4 it doesnt take a rocket scientist to work out thats amazingly powerful against everyone but Marines and it can be buffed further by relics and psychic, but we all know that marines ATSKNF is broken anyway… but that isnt something that should be fixed here.

          heck i started supporting a football team because of my dad but it doesnt mean i switched allegiance just because they were not as strong at one point or another, theres nothing to suggest in the fluff that DG were not stronger than NL either, after all its fiction, but NL are nowhere near as bad as people are making out, as for balance being a games designer its nigh on impossible to make everything perfectly balanced, hence we could just not have legion rules and we can go back to complaining about CSM not being balanced against marines, and then we could get rid of CSM and just have marines and call our ones bad marines and theres good but then we would be at 30k right??? i get people are emotional about these things but god we finally get something worthwhile and still so much salt if anything we should be jumping for joy that our glorious DG brothers are able to kick it to those imperialist dogs!

          • ZeeLobby

            I definitely get your view, but as a DE player I can totally understand those who are upset as well. CSM have honestly been at the bottom of the barrel for 2 whole editions now. I don’t think most people who are upset care that DG and their legion aren’t equals. It’s more that DG finally have a chance to compete while every other legion is still probably low tier. It has to be as frustrating as me putting down my Dark Elder when playing Elder and knowing that I’m going to lose 90% of the games no thanks to my or my opponents skill level at all.

            I know game balance is difficult (I do competitive software simulations for work) but if WE can already see some issues through Bells chopped up legion coverage then it should have been glaringly obvious to them. If you paid me to spend a day coming up with better legion rules I have no doubt that I could. Would they be perfectly balanced? Of course not, but I could guarantee that there wouldn’t be one that was clearly ahead of the rest.

          • Dennis J. Pechavar

            What you don’t like how Eldar jetbikes are better by far than DE jetbikes or Harlequin? Mind you Harlies have some great(if pricey) bikes.

        • benn grimm

          I dunno Zee, I think taking the iron in monopoly should be an auto lose tbh and taking the tank should definitely confer OPness in the extreme. Probably should cost more to maintain also…

          • ZeeLobby

            Haha. Monopoly: EXTREME Edition

          • NightShade2k

            the hat should just be random luck then right 😛

        • BT

          One can also argue the Chapter Tactics wasn’t fair across the board either… not because GW wanted to screw a Chapter over, but because not everyone can get Bolter Drill or a +2 Jink save. I never saw White Scars before Chapter Tactics… but after? White everywhere!

          I am just suggesting that GW wanted to give them rules based on their flavor… and those added rules do perfectly match that flavor. It is pretty hard to argue that those rules do not fit the NL fluff. The real problem is just some rules are better than other rules. That is the core failure of GW in that department by not giving those rules a fair point exchange. Those ‘free’ perks should account for some difference in points. There is a reason why the Icon of Excess is the most expensive Icon, right?

          You can now /do/ what NLs are suppose to do. What else can you give them that is fluff that would be better? I mean, I am hearing a lot of complaining, but no one is saying they should have different rules. Are they worse than Raven Guard, or are they just the polar opposite of Raven Guard?

          So I will make some suggestions…

          Now if they had a artifact that makes the entire match a Night Fight (some kind of storm effect), that would make sense to me, but what is something like that worth? You would have to base it off of that one Nercon guy… or maybe Ally with him? Give them 2 turns of night fighting instead of 1 turn? Give them a chance to re-roll the Night fighting roll? Have their fear ignore fearless, or make an artifact that gives them a 18″ bubble for 25pts that ignores fearlessness/ATSKNF… or would that be worth 100pts?

    • benn grimm

      So do like a Night lord would; flay the book, nail its skin to your armour and just cheat… 😉

    • Traitor8

      Careful man, you get slammed if you say anything negative about the book. “Stop whining and just be happy we got anything at all” is pretty much most responses. I agree totally that NL got boned but some get it worse (WB).

      • nurglitch

        I think re-rolling charge ranges, particularly where we can have core Raptor Talons, is pretty awesome personally.

        • Nyyppä

          Would be if raptors had weapons to do their jobs.

          • nurglitch

            They’ll do their jobs just fine.

          • Nyyppä

            Excellent for killing anything with low toughnes and bad armor, meaning very few things. Levy squads, cultists and grots mainly.

          • nurglitch

            Scatter bikes, Tacticals, etc.

          • Nyyppä

            3+ armor kills the efficiency of an ap- attack.

          • nurglitch

            A squad of Raptors hits a Scatter Bike squadron of 3 with 11 attacks on the drop. 2/3rds hit, so 3-4 at 4+ to wound, and 1/3rd fail to save. That’s 1-2 wounds, and the Raptors mop up the survivor(s) on the Eldar turn, after remaining safely in combat with them. Then they charge again.

          • Nyyppä

            That’s assuming that you get the DS hit, have room to drop them to that one inch and that the bikes do not run away. It’s just as likely, if not more likely, that you fail that and get peppered to oblivion by bikes that are now out of your reach. The bikes might be in a place where you can not fit the models you want to and thus can not hit them. Also there is a moderate chance that one of your raptors get’s killed just by overwatch.

            On average you will not get the assaults you want. You might, but it’s less likely than not getting them. I appreciate your wishful thinking but since we are math-hammering here we are going to have to take other variables in to count also, even the ones that are not in favor of one of the most overpriced units in the game.

          • nurglitch

            Math-hammer eh? 1/3 chance of sticking the landing, 21/36 chance of scattering within charge range, re-roll to charge ((x/36)+(y-x/36)(x/36)) where x = 2D6″ range, 2/12 scatter laser hits, ~2 wounds at 5/6 but ~2 saves at 2/3, and then the aforementioned expected results of combat, leading to a 21/36 chance of sticking around, and some decent odds of those bikes falling back an average of 10.5″ off the table if they do fail leadership (21/36) and pass sweeping advance (26/36).

            It is the re-roll to charges that are the kicker, doubling the chance of a 12″ charge from 1/36 to 2/36, and the chance of a 7″ charge from 58% or better than 4+ but not quite 3+ to 83% or equivalent to 2+.

          • Nyyppä

            You forgot to add difficult terrain. Also what is this “they are hugging the table edge” thing?

            Anyway, even with your calculations we are still talking about a thing that is unreliable.

          • nurglitch

            So a 100% chance of falling back off the table if not destroyed by a sweeping advance when positioned on the edge, and a simple 2″ shift of values for charges increasing the utility of re-rolling charges from Strike Fast, Strike Hard. But I made no calculations, I simply showed how we might math-hammer out the expected value of such an action.

            What do you consider to be reliable in terms of the likelihood of an action occurring? Strategically speaking I take the expected value of an action with its likelihood of failing its objective, and its likelihood of fulfilling that objective. The objective is defined by both its direct and indirect relation to scoring. Indirectly it would be the short-term objective of clearing Scatter Bikes, Warp Spiders, and other MSU.

          • Nyyppä

            Something like 80% chance of achieving the desired effect and 10% or less chance of suffering defeat in a particular combat round is reliable.

            Remember that we are playing a game in which massed high s ap2 is easy to achieve. Having few attacks that might do something maybe is not much of a threat.

      • E65

        I ordered TL because I think the new CSM dex will make it and KDK better. BL guys may have more to be angry about, they might have a useless book sitting on the shelf. I guess we find out Saturday.

    • Djbz

      Death guard may get more but are going to be (at least) 3 points a model more due to having to buy the mark of nurgle.

      • Nyyppä

        Fearless is 5p per model at the moment. I’d say that getting 40% discount for that and on top of it having free hatred, t5, FNP and Relentles is pretty nice. After, what, a decade, CSM are actually on par with loylalists. Sure, they cost a bit more and fearless is a poor mans ATSKNF but the rest of the benefits compensate enough that, while not amazing, they are in line with their loyalist counterparts.

        • Traitor8

          2/9 then…DG/EC? 2.5/9 I guess as WE are ok too.

          • Nyyppä

            WE suffer from having no means to utilize their respective benefits in the game with effective units. Thanks to the ap-system the best thing they can get is an equivalent of ap-. The one juggerlord just does not do much. They got help, which is great, but their regular targets just do not suffer from they gear they carry around and the irregulars are not a problem anyway.

            I’m not sure about EC. When I first went through the benefits each legion gets all that stuck with me after that is that EC are like DG but only if they get lucky dice rolls.

        • Pyrrhus of Epirus

          books not out yet, and what we have seen on paper, no CSM are not on par with marines. There is flat out no way these armies are equal when one has the best gun in the history of warhammer (the grav gun), while the other does not, it dosnt even matter what the other minor special rules are. Grav and doctrines dominate what even the death guard is getting here, who most people think are the best of the traitor factions now.

          • Nyyppä

            Entirely possible. DG is still far, far better than it used to be and it used to be the only way to play CSM. Ironically the rest are not that much better or better at all. WB is pretty much exactly as good since they have nothing going for them from the legion rules.

        • nurglitch

          How is Fearless a poor man’s ATSKNF? Complete, blanket immunity to morale, pinning, and fear vs immunity to sweeping advance, automatic regroup, and no regrouping penalties? You can’t even lose ground with Fearless.

          • BurpinforDayz

            I’d say they’re about the same, I’d personally rather have ATSKNF. Fearless is better for resistance against pinning but ATSKNF is good for getting out of a hopeless combat and shooting at the unit previously locked up with.

          • Nyyppä

            Close. Depends a lot on what the opposing list is. If there are no things that the fearless units can hurt then sure, fearless is as good as ATSKNF.

          • Nyyppä

            It’s essentially the same thing with the exception that you can not leave a hopeless fight. Getting pinned is not usual not only because the weapons that cause pinning are rarely in use. I’d rather risk the off chance of being pinned once in ten or so games than getting beaten by some thing the unit can not touch. Pinning is like soulblaze, it has theoretical potential but pretty much nothing suffers from it in a significant way.

            Also you forgot that fearless does not let things go to ground which actually can save models or even units.

          • nurglitch

            ATSKNF can still be pinned, can still fall back off the board (particularly if they fail a morale test in the opponent’s movement phase), and still fall back from combat. Pinning test are pretty common considering every unit that’s shot out of a wrecked or exploded transport needs to take one, aside from all the weapons with pinning out there.

          • Nyyppä

            Can be but which of the following pins things has pinning by default: Deathstars, WK, IK, warp spider, spammed tactical squads in free razorbacks, scatterbikes, gravbikespam, assault squads with what ever weapons in free razorbacks, devastators with what ever weapons in free razorbacks, telepathy spamming librarious conclave, daemon summon engine.

          • BurpinforDayz

            The pinning thing is the main drawback to ATSKNF.

      • BurpinforDayz

        The mark of nurgle is pretty well priced tbh on regular marines.

    • Nyyppä

      Any second now Mr. K and the Fan’ky buch come here and tell you that because one of the legions has some chances you should be thrilled even though you still can not effectively play the game with your chosen legion.

    • nurglitch

      I’ll take re-rolling charge ranges and auto-stealth over relentless, fearless, and FNP where I’m fighting Tau, Space Marines, or Eldar.

    • piglette

      Just fight like a true night lord- dirty! Sneak a couple hundred extra points into your list without your opponent knowing! Flip dice rolls when he isn’t looking! Poop your pants and make it unbearable for your opponent to stay in the game!

    • BT

      I agree with you on Night Vision. They give that cr*p to Space Wolves for free. But I don’t know what the NL artifacts are and do either. You do get that from every unit and not a 18″ bubble (though the 3d6 Ld roll is pretty good). We also don’t know how Fear will work in 8th, but right now there are plenty of lists that are not fearless (Eldar, Tau, etc).

      I also don’t know what new powers are out in that book, so taking a Sorc as a additional HQ choice and shooting for stuff that boosts the Fear might be pretty interesting. Undivided means good Sorcs without having to waste picks on God powers, so work that angle as well. It is easy to have a Allied detachment and your core detachment to throw out 4 HQs, not counting formations/detachments in the new book. Running two Lords and 2 Sorcs with 4 squads of Raptors is easy, or make two death stars with a Lord and Sorc in each and shoot for that Invisibility.

      Also doing stuff like taking Rhinos with Dirge casters and Combi-Meltas with a small ‘Tact’ squad with melta/s just to run around the board and raise heck to support your Raptors might be a interesting combo as well. Then we can also talk Bikes, Terminators, Warp Talons, Possessed, Oblits… do they get Fear and Stealth as well? Does Stealth stack with Jink? I mean, if you don’t like Raptors, there are other choices that stuff might work with.

      There is more than one way to skin a cat, you just have to look at all the units and how they might work. But you now have a lot more than you did with the last/base codex. Maybe the given stuff isn’t no brainer/OP stuff… but it is something.

  • Ross McCune

    Anyone think that maybe they are gonna rework fear in 8th edition and that’s why they made that artifact lol I can’t wait for age of 40k personally

    • euansmith

      Give Space Marines a new USR: And They Shall Know A Modicum Of Fear?

    • Parthis

      I’d like to see marines lose And They Shall Know No Fear; 30K is a much better game for it.

      • Djbz

        They don’t have to lose it, they just need to change it so it’s not better than fearless most of the time

      • nurglitch

        Agreed., although I’ve like to see Fearless be changed from a lbanket immunity to morale, pinning, and fear to something like an extra die and choose the lowest or something.

  • MarcoT

    Best defense and best offensive. That seems fair…

    No, tempting as it is, this is not the time to complain! These books are exactly what we asked! That one legion is clearly superiour than the others in the same book is just a small blemish on an otherwise awesome release.

    • ZeeLobby

      Anyone who expected all legions to receive equal treatment and be equally playable clearly doesn’t know the way GW operates.

    • Painjunky

      Actually most of us asked for a CSM codex that was NOT a pile of flaming dog excrement. Not to try and fix a bad codex with legion rules.

      GW likes to put the cart before the horse.

    • Hunlow

      Not all the Space Marine chapters are equal in power either. Just look at Blood Angels and Black Templars. Like you said though so many positives here how can any chaos player be upset?

      • foulestfeesh13 .

        A lot of Chaos marine players are so stuck in their ways they aren’t able to accept it when we are given something that’s good.

        • Traitor8

          It’s called having an opinion. If you want to shout the awesomeness of the release based on finally getting some flavour back for our legions then I’m with you all the way. But lets not pretend that CSM are now magically fixed, far from it.

  • Rainthezangoose

    Kinda annoyed they get stealth and fear, on top of the usual nurgle bells and whistles. That our (nightlords) thing.

    • NightShade2k

      DG dont get fear by default as per the NL who also cause -2 fear, DG can buy a relic (expensive) or can buy an icon (waste of points) to get fear…

    • nurglitch

      Stealth is also from stuff further than 18″ away. Up close they’re not getting it.

    • E65

      Unless they fart, then you see the miasma AND smell them!

  • Traitor8

    Kind of weird that one of the few CSM legions that has had any kind of presence on gaming tables since 6th edition gets more buffs beyond what the rest of the legions get…why not bring all the others up to this level? Ok, EC is there already and WE are pretty close. But the Undivided legions and 1KSons are not even in the ball park.

  • piglette

    What’s better statistically? Fear in 3D6? Or the Night Lords’ -2 LDR on fear tests?

    • Nyyppä

      Usually 3d6.

    • NightShade2k

      3D6 is without any other modifiers, if you combo the core TH formation raptor talon charge of 2 units -2 + NL buff then it swings the other way. However fear is only good against 66% of the armies sadly due to ATSKNF being a factor. , You should not that the NL one is free as its part of NL play for all units the other is a relic so theres investment in a character to wield the relic, if you want in particular to take that relic.

      • piglette

        So in the end, Deathguard are spookier than Night Lords 🙁

        • nurglitch

          No, in the end the Death Guard need a magical relic with a limited range. Night Lords all get Fear and thanks to re-rolling charges get to use it as a force multiplier.

          • BurpinforDayz

            Fear is pretty awful though.

          • nurglitch

            It’s pretty effective against Necrons, Eldar, Tau Empire, Astra Militarum, and Skitarii.

          • Chet Atkinson

            Fear works on Necrons?

          • nurglitch

            Yup. Only canoptek constructs are Fearless.

          • BurpinforDayz

            Fear is essentially useless against most of those factions.

            Necrons CC units are fearless other units are LD10 anyway so unlikely they’ll fail it and if they do its likely a warrior brick or immortals squad meaning they’ll tarpit you anyway, fear won’t save the raptor squad against anything in that codex.

            AM infantry units melt like butter without a priest in which case they have zealot. Otherwise your unit should be annihilating them anyway considering you already hit them on 3s with higher initiative.

            You hit Tau on 3s anyways except kroot which suck at combat and at higher initiative , see AM.

            Fear is useful against eldar if you can get there mainly shooting army anyways.

            Fear is useful against Skitarii as they have to get up pretty close.

  • Mr.Gold

    anyone know if: like in the previous BL suppliment, you can take multiple artifacts?

    • nurglitch

      It has been FAQ’d that you cannot.

  • Kaylum Dicks

    Relentless Havocs, just what my Thousand Sons army always hoped for, but never got.

  • Now this? This sorely tempts me to go Nurgle again.

  • The Suave Lion

    Death Guard have serious potential. The possibility of toughness debuffs(max requirement for plague colony, new nurgle power and enfeeble) can reduce most T4 characters to T1. Combine with the WS and I debuffs DG can smash most dudes in CC and have the resilience to get there.

    Obviously can be quite situational to get off but at minimum you are debuffing MEQ to strike at the same time as you, you hit them on 3’s and have a high chance of re-rolling to wound. Would love to see some non eternal warrior dudes doubled out by cultists/zombies etc.

  • Frey Jepson

    Sick!

  • No Body

    45 bucks a pop just to get one lascannon…