Goatboy: Traitor Legion List Thoughts

khorne-berzerker-02

Goatboy here. It’s a great time to be a traitor to the Emperor! Let’s build badass armies for World Eaters and Death Guard.

The release of some new rules has really kick my butt into high gear when thinking about Chaos Space Marines and lists that actually have them in there.  I know – who would have thought by adding a few keywords to their rules we all of a sudden have a decent unit.  Not Eldar Jetbike amazing – but overall a nice counter point to their goody too shoe brethren.  I think there are viable lists within all the traitor legions.  They might not be as high on the “meta” scale of things – but they have really solidified them as a good mid tier army that easily gets better with the better player commanding their legion of bad guys.

The first two lists I want to explore are two distinct legions.  The first one is the World Eaters and the second list will be the current “best” legion – the Death Guard.  Both have their strengths but they heavily rely on utilizing one of the better “winning games” formations for the Chaos Space Marines – the core Warband.  For those who haven’t looked at traitors hate – the Warband is a core formation built upon a battle force like set of units.  Its almost as if GW decided they needed to sell a few more terminators/chosen/raptors/etc.  This mishmash of units is designed to be a counter point to the Space Marine battle company in that everything is objective secured and while the Chaos side doesn’t get free stuff (the Warp taxes are outrageous…) they do get some fun options (Double boons, etc).

black-legion-CSM

Here is the basic rundown of a Warband
1 – Chaos Lord
0-1 – Sorcerer Lord
1-3 – Chosen, Possessed, Terminators
2-6 – Chaos Space Marines
1-3 – Bikes, Raptors, Warp Talons
1-3 – Havocs, Hellbrute
Extra Rules: Objective secured for everyone, and double boons when you get a Chaos Boon roll – you can keep both but you gots to take one.

As you can see – it is a pretty big mish mash of stuff that feels like a bunch of random things thrown together in a box.  Initially when this came out – the thought was to keep this cheap to activate the Traitor’s Hate Black Crusade Detachment.  This way you could set up a double booning crazy Chaos lord as your objective secured scaredy cats would run around the board and hopefully score and objective or two.  The new Traitor Legions have come in, thrown in the extra special keyword Fearless, mixed with the added on Freebie of Veterans of the Long War, and then even added more keywords to finally make the Warband Formation a strong choice in the upcoming battles of the 40k universe.

The two army lists I am presenting try to represent their Legion as best as I can.  I am just sticking with one Legion each as while I feel the better lists will try to shove in a Cyclopia Cabal from the Black Legion (Kinda fluffy as they are known to get involved with their own schemes and sacrifice the other “lesser” legions), I would rather go straight Legion to get the full flavor and pride when winning a game with a fluffy yet decent army.

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World Eaters

First – lets go with the crazy – the World Eaters.  I know there are some fun 30k World Eaters armies that are designed to get in, get involved, and make sure you lose a skull or two for Khorne.  I initially was going to look at the Maelstrom of Gore as a core choice – but again I wanted this list to be good as well as fluffy so instead we have to go with the Warband as the initial choice for any detachment options.  World Eaters have their own Legion Detachment and for the most part it is the same as the Black Legion – two core choices (Warband and Maelstrom) and then the 8 different Aux options from that detachment.

The warband seems to be the correct choice as while the Maelstrom of Gore has a ton of Bezerkers, the added on rules from the World Eaters Legion really amps up the power level of the basic Chaos Space Marine.  As I am sure you have seen online – the World Eaters Legion gets the following if they pick the legion – Have to Purchase Mark of Khrone but they get Veterans of the Long War (VoTLW) for free which brings along with it Fearless, Furious Charge, and Admantium Will.  The magic rule of Fearless means you can get cheaper, better Berserkers and even have the option of decent weapons.

The added on spice to make this army work is the Detachments extra rule of giving every non Vehicle in the detachment a free 2d6 move that comes after set up, and infiltration. This with another small little Special evil Artifact helps amp up this list and makes for an extreme sense of the “Oh S$%t” when the opponent has to see a crap ton of red armored jerks heading for their home base.  The item gives the bearer and his unit an addition 3 inches on movement, runs, and charges.  This adds up to a ton of space as the Red angry jerk faces come to take all your dang candy.  Just a note – the 3″ might not added on the initial 2d6 move – it depends on how that move is worded and the Artifact is worded.

World Eaters List 1.0 – Murder Murder Kill Kill Kill

World Eaters Legion Detachment
Warband
Chaos Lord, MoK, Juggernaut, Talisman of Burning Blood (Move item), Powerfst, Lightning Claw, Sigil, VoTLW
Chosen X 5, Meltagun X 4, Combi-Melta, Rhino, Dirge Caster, Dozer Blade, VoTLW
Chaos Space Marines X 20, MoK, Meltagun X 2, Power Axe, VoTLW
Chaos Space Marines X 20, MoK, Meltagun X 2, Power Axe, VoTLW
Chaos Bikers X 10, MoK, Meltagun X 2, Power Axe, VoTLW
Helbrute, Powerfist X 2, Legacy of Ruin: Perdus Rift Anomaly (If on table – reroll seize or have opponent reroll seize)

Aux
Chaos Spawn X 1, Mark of Khorne

Lords of the Legion
Kharn
Chaos Lord, MoK, Juggernaut, Axe of Blind Fury, Sigil, VoTLW

armor-world-eaters

The basic idea is to utilize the Chosen ability to infilitrate and get close enough to the enemy to turn off any Overwatch and get mixed in to do some damage.  Sure you got a crazy amount of movement – 2d6+3, plus 12+3, and then 2d6+3 when you charge in with the big blob of bikes and Juggers. Kharn can tag along on the back end if you want or you could just have him leading some Chaos Space Marines to glory.  The Helbrute combo is there to help you keep your turn or at least give you a chance to seize your destiny and bring as many skulls to the Skull throne.  Plus with all this Objective secured you can easily “steal” an objective or two.  The Axe of Blind Fury is just there as another fun way to add more attacks, do more damage, and just scream bloody murder to the dog face god of killing and maiming.

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Death Guard

Next up is another idea utilizing the power of multiple saves and the gifts of Nurgle.  I personally feel the Death Guard army has enough chops to make it to some of the top tables.  The mix of Fearless, Toughness, and speed makes for a very powerful force.  This again utilizes the Warband by creating hard to remove units with powerful damage potential in Chaos Lords, Sorcerers, and always “on” heavy weapons.  The Death Guard seem to get the best mix of powers from getting the free VoTLW with FNP, Fearless, Relentless, and the small tax of losing a point of Initiative. The Vectorium detachment even adds another wrinkle to this by allowing you to reroll rolls of 1 for your FNP.  We all know how much of a pain in the butt the Necrons can be and now we have a new version with some better weapons, objective secured, and fearless on top.

We start with a Warband and utilize a different Auxillary to help activate the army.  I initially like the Raptor Talon and while you do get hampered with a drop in your Initiative – the added in value of a unit that can hit and appear out of nowhere will be a big help as your army moves up, gets locked in and starts to punish your opponent.  Of course you lose your ability to hit faster so Power Axes and Power fists will be the best.

As is usual will start with the Warband as the main Core Choice.  I really like the Plague Colony – but that one is more set up for some kind of massed Toughness drop combo.  The power of MSU is too frequent so while it would be rad to make a Bark Bark star melt away when you hit the amazing -4/-4 S/T combo – it isn’t something that will consistently win you games.  Thus the move back to the Warband, massed Obj Secured, and great combos of speed and toughness.

Death Guard List 1.0 – Grinding my Gears

Death Guard Legion Detachment
Chaos Lord, MoN, Bike, Sigil, Powerfist, Lightning Claw, VoTLW
Chosen X 5, Meltagun X 4, Rhino, Dirge Caster, VoTLW
Chaos Space Marines X 10, MoN, Heavy Bolter, Meltagun, Rhino, Dirge Caster, VoTLW
Chaos Space Marines X 10, MoN, Heavy Bolter, Meltagun, Rhino, Dirge Caster, VoTLW
Bikes X 10, MoN, Meltagun X 2, Power Axe, VoTLW
Havocs X 5, MoN, Auto Cannon X 4, VoTLW, Rhino, Dirge Caster

Aux
Raptor Talon
Chaos Lord, MoN, Jump Pack (Free!), PlagueBringer (Daemon Weapon), Sigil, VoTLW
Raptors X 5, MoN, Meltagun X 2, Power Axe, VoTLW
Raptors X 5, MoN, Meltagun X 2, Power Axe, VoTLW
Raptors X 5, MoN, Meltagun X 2, Power Axe, VoTLW

armor-death-guard

This is one of those things that I am not entirely sure if the Raptor Talon would be worth it but man it would look cool.  The slow advance of the Death Guard mixed with the screaming engines of the Raptors coming in to punch things to death.  I went with the Plague Bringer weapon as it is a Daemon weapon, can be a big giant Scythe, and while it isn’t AP 2 – these guys are meant to go kill things far away. Thus the Big Bad Chaos lord can just go about slicing and dicing.

You could drop the Talon, go with some Chaos Spawn of Nurgle, and create another mobile Death Star with another Chaos lord or Sorcerer.  The sorcerer would come from the Warband and thus gain Objective secured so this might be the better way – but I just want Raptors to be good at some point and this might be the way to get them to work.  Plus Autocannons for the old school 30k Win!

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Which way to Terra?

These are some of my initial thoughts on my two favorite armies from the Chaos book.  I plan on looking at some of the other options too – as while they are not nearly as spicy as these two I still think there is some hope for the Chaos Space Marines.  This isn’t everything we wanted out of a new book – but interestingly enough – a new book wouldn’t invalidate these legions either.

~Until next time – Death to the False Emperor!

 

  • Traitor8

    How do the World Eaters Chosen get infiltrate?

    • Ghaniman

      They can’t.

      He also forgot to add on MoK and MoN to both Chosen units respectively.

    • Diagoras

      Obviously, they’re Alpha Legion in disguise.

      We are all Alpharius.

      • rakshasa

        We are all Negan.
        Oh snap…
        Negan IS Alpharius. TH eimplications… O.O 😉

  • William Ferguson

    i do like the warband option for world eaters. you get a good spread of units and obsec. but for khorne i think the maelstrom of gore might be better for all out assault. you get fleet and +3″ to the charge for everything [which stacks with the talisman], plus WS5 berserkers. fleet is better than the re-roll on charges you get for the detachment, and you can re-roll runs with it.

    • Karru

      Warband is the more solid choice IMO. It gives you a variety of options as well as the Objective Secured. With the Maelstrom of Gore, you are forced to take more expensive Khorne Berserkers that have barely anything over regular CSM at this point and you are giving away your ranged AT. Overall, the benefit of taking the Warband is greater than the Maelstrom.

      • Djbz

        I still don’t get why objective secured is rated so high.
        It never comes up.
        Even in my last game I was all “it’s finally going to come up”.
        I had an obsec (weaponless) rhino that wanted to take an objective away from a unit of (non obsec) cultists in the last turn of the game,
        So it tank shocked them, they fled and obsec was pointless in another game.

        • Karru

          The keyword here is the “more variety” in the Warband. Objective Secured is one of those rules that is good to have, especially on tougher units that can take hits. It would be more useful overall if the scoring in 40k was more similar to AoS where it happens during the game and not in the end.

          It’s more often than not included in formations that have way more options in terms of unit that are included in it. In this case, the Maelstrom of Gore gives you a Chaos Lord and Berzerkers. They get a slight movement bonus and a rule they will very rarely get to use, almost always when I charge anything it’s dead or running after combat so it’s not like those ‘zerkers are in CC to use their special ability.

          So basic TL;DR having Objective Secured is a rule that is better to have than not. It can win you the game, but since the scoring and missions in 40k is done so badly compared to AoS for example, it will look like it’s not worth it.

          • Simon Chatterley

            Comes up all the time in my games and really starts to impact. If I see a rhino and a squad on an objective I have to take this turn unless I can clear out both I will focus my efforts on something else as the obsec will at the very least contest it.

            But I generally play tournaments with either ITC blended missions or variations of that theme where maelstrom is still a thing

        • TenDM

          I’m with you. It doesn’t seem to come up because the logical way of securing an objective is to actually secure it. From time to time I’ll jam a unit on an objective and use Objective Secure to score a point but it seems like most of the time even a mediocre Formation/Detachment bonus will do more to secure an objective in the big picture.
          Maybe if Objective Secure increased the range at which you could secure an objective it’d be the desirable bonus people want it to be. That way a unit could hold the objective without clustering up, and it would allow them to take advantage of more cover options. That’s a reliable bonus you can bring to every game instead of just crossing your fingers your opponent doesn’t take it.

          • Karru

            As I mentioned, it’s usually more the case of more options over the actual getting the Objective Secured rule. In this situation, you have the option of a Warband with multiple different options, including long range AT, or Maelstrom of Gore with 1 Lord and Khorne Berzerkers. If you take the Maelstrom, you now lack all ranged firepower and you are stuck with more expensive version of the basically same unit that the normal CSM units with Mark of Khorne and World Eater buff gives. The Objective Secured benefit is a bonus, you want the choice over the minor benefit you’d get from a formation.

          • TenDM

            Totally. I’m never going to turn it down. I just don’t get why people rate it pretty highly when really it’s only desirable state is as the icing on the cake.

          • Muninwing

            as an idea, it’s great. as executed, it’s a fail.

            what i’d love to see in 8th is a re-evaluation of all the stuff they’ve added. 7th was just a clearinghouse after 6th, and the game needs an overhaul.

            some of the system changes in AoS have been… i’ll grudgingly admit… not terrible. some have been common sense. some have been crap. but if Armor Save is in a number like 3+, why can’t BS?

            WS is comparative, so i get that staying around (though i’d love to see it have a 2+ and a 5+ option on the chart, maybe double-plus-one gives you a boost, so a WS2 vs a WS 5 would matter, or a WS3 vs a WS7… but something easy to remember).

            the psychic phase needs a new less clunky system.

            but more than anything, units need to be repointed. and so do formations (and freebies need to be replaced with something else).

            adding to that (or even if that’s not done), we also need to really “buy in” to the methods of play. we need to see ObSec matter. we need to see it limited to CAD. we need some guidelines for asymmetric missions, take-and-hold or king of the mountain style rules, and other non-meatgrinder motivations.

            i’ve enjoyed maelstrom missions as a new thing, but i’d much rather see a system (like Malifaux has? at least had…) where you choose your mission objectives and can make them open or secret for different numbers of points. refocusing on the goals and victory conditions would make the game less biased toward leafblower-disciples and add some playability.

          • Karru

            Again, AoS has done wonders in the mission department. Since the scoring happens during the game, it makes gunline fortress in the corner of the map less useful. You want to be moving at all times in order to win the game. If you don’t do that, you lose.

            The reason why BS is a thing compared to AoS is to make sure that using different weapons isn’t a bad idea. For example, in AoS you have to look at two different things when choosing a weapons, how easy it is to hit and how hard does it it. Some weapons are weaker compared to others, but they might have things like re-rolls to hit on 1s. You don’t need those since the game has plenty of ways to get re-rolls to your hits so those weapons are now redundant. You just take the weapon that hits harder.

            Same thing would happen in 40k if they removed BS. Missile Launcher Krak Missile hits on a 4+, but gets to re-roll 1s for example and damages on a 3+. Lascannon would hit on a 3+ and damages on a 2+. Lascannon is clearly the superior choice here due to better damage.

            Of course the systems are completely different where in AoS your units have no personality in anyway, they are just copy/paste grunts over and over and equipment doesn’t have points. All you need is to have the model for it and they have it.

            Biggest balance maker would be to make formations more restrictive to take and Super Heavies/Gargantuans more expensive and rare. This way some armies don’t have to use CAD while others enjoy their amazing formations/detachments that are clearly superior to CAD since they are just as flexible and give free rules on top of it. In the case of Demi-company it also gives free stuff. These need to be changed formations should never be a mandatory choice. Same thing with Super Heavies/Gargantuans, these have ruined the game. Imperial Knights and Wraithknights are extremely common sight while vast majority of the Super Heavies/Gargantuans in the game are still Apocalypse priced while still having less firepower/survivability than the Knights.

          • Muninwing

            i read this comment and wonder how this is supposed to be simpler and with less rules than before… which was their whole selling strategy…

            and that makes me nervous for what they’ll do with 8th, with changes made “to simplify” that really just repackage the same old crap in a shiny new box.

          • Karru

            Unless they do something that has done the biggest amount of damage to 40k in 8th edition like remove it, 8th won’t do anything to actually fix the game. It will have the opposite effect.

            The biggest issue in 40k right now is scale. Formations, Multiple Detachments, Super Heavies/Gargantuans and Flyers. These were things in the Apocalypse expansion. Remove all that and suddenly you have cut down the largest problem in the game. Then they simplify or remove Psychic Phase completely. Now you have the basic 40k remaining, the one that didn’t have issues with “rule bloat”.

            This is where the problem with 8th comes from. Unless they remove all those things from the base game, “simplifying” the game won’t do anything to fix it. They will still exist, the scale will be way off since some armies can field those things and others cannot due to massive point difference. Even if they introduce points to formations, it won’t be enough. Now on top of their already expensive formations, some armies have to pay the extra price to take it. Other armies just have to make due with one unit less maximum.

            All this is the reason why I am worried. Everyone knows that GW loves their money. Big stuff and especially free stuff means more things that players have to buy, which means more money for GW. There is no way that GW would be so kind as to take more balancing approach where they look at the game and the big stuff from the PoV of all armies, not just Imperials, Tau or Eldar. In the competitive scene, the game is already a massive arms race. Who can field most D-weapons, Super Heavies/Gargantuans or free stuff. This has become the “norm” now to compare the “effectiveness” of new releases. If an army cannot field large quantities of units for free or they cannot alpha strike the opponent effectively enough, the rules are more often than not judged to be useless.

          • Alpharius

            They just need to re-release the Epic ruleset for the 40K scale, so we can use all our giant toys on huge tables.

          • Alpharius

            We need to see all that garbage go away, and use 30K rules.

          • Karru

            Doesn’t 30k use 40k ruleset, but it doesn’t involve CAD Spam, Cheap Super Heavy/Gargantuan spam and you know only 1 faction that people actually play? I have seen 30k books, I have seen the rules in it and I have seen the army construction rules. All of them are fun and all, but it’s extremely easy to do those things when you really only need to do it for one faction, Space Marines. Every single game of HH I have seen, and I have seen a lot of them, has only involved Space Marines vs Space Marines. The other factions are so expensive in comparison that vast majority goes with SM or they want to go with the “stars” of that era.

            We have seen how wild the rules get when you give FW the pen and tell them to write stuff for other armies. Just look at the Tau suits. Then there was the around 400pts(?) Big Mek Stompa that Orks could get for their HQ slot, with a weapon that 1-shots any vehicle that is not a Super Heavy as long as it hit. It also had majority of the Stompa Weaponry as well as Ork version of Void Shields.

            FW knows how to write balanced rules when there is only 1 faction to do it to. Yes, the other armies might be balanced as well, I have no idea as I said I have never seen them play, but the critical point is to only balance Space Marines. It’s not that hard to create a massive unbalance when you literally have the same army fighting the same army, only difference coming from the chosen Legion rules and units. Beyond that they have access to the exact same equipment across the entire army.

          • Alpharius

            The “one faction” comment is idiotic and trotted out by people who have zero clue about 30K. Let’s do a real comparison.

            Space Marines vs. Legions – The Marines are actually far more samey, with all the “variety” coming from busted formations which are routinely decried as the worst part of 40K. The varieties in the Legions between equipment, unique units, and unique army organization are more significant than the changes between any of the loyalist or traitor Space Marine chapters, and there are *18* of them (or soon will be with book 7). The variety of units also far exceeds 40K, and they are actually cool stuff like dreadnoughts or crazy tanks rather than, erm, Space Wolves riding other mutated wanna-be Space Wolves or Centurions or Baby Carriers. – 30K wins, or at best a tie.

            Imperial Guard vs. Auxilia and Militia – The 30K lists allow dozen, if not more, variations of army lists to field your guardsmen or Stormtroopers or even Squats or Sisters of Battle or Lost of the Damned or Armoured Company, etc. etc. You can field almost entirely 40K models with these armies, even more so than Legion marines. – 30K wins by a landslide.

            Mechanicus vs Mechanicum – Cult Cybernetica is a tiny army list, whereas 30K has two very distinct and expansive army types, as well as a unified list. – 30K wins by a landslide.

            Skitarii – No Skitarii yet in 30K, but next book will add them and they will have far more options than in 40K. 30K wins.

            Knights – Again you have more variety in knights and the crusader roles give you more flexibility in building your army rather than just selecting basic weapon load-outs. 30K wins.

            Xenos – At first glance it seems 30K has nothing to offer here, but armies like Dark Eldar, Tyranids (mecharachnids!), and Orks, who are basically unplayable in 40K, can do quite well in 30K. The powerful Xenos like Tau/Eldar/Necrons can also be played if they use the AoD organization chart and you convince them to avoid spamming the crap out of their best unit (since that’s not how you play 30K, although you could). These armies don’t need any FW models at all, but again you have more selection and less push-back if you decide to use them. 30K wins.

            In conclusion, 30K has far more REAL army variety in 40K, without all the bogus formations on allies shenanigans. Don’t blame the game because you just watch a small selection of youtube videos and/or your group lacks even an iota of imagination.

            You don’t NEED to buy all the expensive 30K stuff to play 30K, you just have the option, and if you’re broke (in which case you shouldn’t be playing 40K either), there is always eBay, second-hand market, or even *gasp* recasters.

            Your point is utterly invalid and grounded in abject willful ignorance, or to put it another way, you’re being a total Space Wolf about this.

          • Karru

            Answer this question then, does 30k use 40k ruleset or not? Do I need 40k rulebook to play 30k if, say I have never touched either?

          • Karru

            I was going to write a long answer about saying “what is wrong about your answer” until I did something that is unheard of in the internet, research. I dare to say that both of us are partially right. You more than me by a country mile, but this is because my “idea” of 30k is a bit different from yours.

            I get easily confused when people praise 30k and then start placing armies that didn’t exist during that period and play games. This is because they aren’t talking about 30k. They are talking about Age of Darkness rules. These are two completely different things to me, as one is a setting and other is the “ruleset”.

            Age of Darkness is way more balanced than 40k due to being basically pre-6th edition style. Troops being the only thing that scores, but vehicles don’t get this, for example.

            Whenever someone says “30k is balanced”, I automatically go to this long rant about it being balanced because majority of 30k players play Space Marines. Again, when I say 30k players I mean people that play Horus Heresy, so Legions vs Legions and other armies that existed during this period. This is where my comment about FW ability balance keeps its validity. 30k proper, not AoD, mostly contains only Space Marines. They are THE largest faction in it, for a reason of course. This is easy to balance, due to having so little factions outside SM and even then FW writes their rules as well.

            So to give this “argument” closure and a slight TL;DR, my comment about 30k balance still stands and the confusion between 30k and Age of Darkness ruleset is now more clear to me. A case of “miscommunication” and difference in definition was the reason for the difference in opinions.

            To make it clear once more, when I say 30k I mean Horus Heresy setting. When you mention 30k, you seem to refer to Age of Darkness rules. Is the latter part correct?

          • Alpharius

            They are interchangeable as far as I’m concerned. Yes the Marines are the protagonists of the Heresy story, just as they are the protagonist of every 40K campaign GW runs.

            Age of Darkness ruleset is a more accurate term, so if you want to use that that’s fine.

            And again there are some balance issues, but the big difference is attitude of everyone involved (designers who are real hobbyists and design for other hobbyists, mature players who like narrative battles and painted models, no kids, etc).

        • Nyyppä

          With the killing power in the game the rule does not come up…pretty much ever. I think I’ve experienced one instance when it helped someone. Other than that with all the ap3 and better shooting around, not to mention the various melee deathstars, deleting the unit from the objective is just so much more convenient than just irritating it with point denial.

        • Muninwing

          i really hope that ObSec is more limited, and more important, in the next edition. it should be the thing that CAD gets (and maybe only CAD) that distinguishes it from other kinds of detachments.

          but that will never happen.

          • Karru

            Having only CAD being Objective Secured and making the missions be more AoS like in their scoring, it would see way more use. It would also make taking something like the Demi-company less worth it, because capping objectives becomes way harder for them at that point. CAD should always be an option, not something that you want to avoid with certain armies since taking the detachments is way better.

        • Alpharius

          Yeah, Objective Secured is not a huge deal when everything scores.

        • Desc440

          ObSec can be very powerful, but you have to commit to it as a strategy. Usually, having 2-3 ObSec units isn’t going to do much because these units will either be dead or otherwise at the wrong spot by T5. Battleco and to a lesser degree the Warband can make good use of ObSec because they can have a buttload of relatively tough ObSec units.

  • Andrew

    Those aren’t fluffy lists. Where are the Berserkers and where are the Plague Marines?

    • grumzimus

      You don’t necessarily need them any more with the upgraded rules. You’re basically swapping out the +1 WS and the Plague knife on the units, but keeping the bulk of the juicy rules for a points drop. Zerkers are crap really since they nerfed the chain axe & assaulting from vehicles. Far better to have a bolter by your side while you’re running across the board over a pistol.

      • Andrew

        Yeah, but when a list is missing it’s signature unit, you can’t really call it a “fluffy” list now can you?

        • BT

          Problem is, he is working with the best that GW is giving us right now. Till GW gives us ‘Berserker’ Raptors, Terminators, etc… this can be considered just as ‘fluffy’ as taking the over-priced single unit given to us for the last 4 editions.

          Heck, would have been nice if you could take the single ‘signature’ unit instead of Chosen for the formations, IMO.

        • Alpharius

          You can use Berserker and Plague Marine models to represent marked CSM, at least. Thousand Sons and Emperor’s Children have the same problem of way overpriced cult troops, except marking CSM basically amounts to nothing.

      • Jared McWilliams

        Berzerkerz can easily pull off a second turn assault now with the bonus movement, in some cases they can pull off a turn one assault so the inability to charge from rhinos is mostly a non issue.

      • Alpharius

        Again, I will continue preaching this to my dying day. 40K sucks, everyone should play 30K. There chainaxes are +1S and AP4.

    • __

      yeah, and since when did death guard use raptors…

      • amaximus167

        SUPER un-fluffy.

      • petrow84

        With big, rotten wings, or riding giant rot flies I wouldn’t mind a bit.

      • It’s been in the fluff for awhile

        • amaximus167

          I’ve not seen it, was it in a story or some side fluff I just didn’t get to?

      • Drpx

        Having an 800Lb diseased fat guy land on your head would be pretty bad, just saying.

    • tbh outside of apoc I don’t think the plague marines or berserker formations are really worth it, you have to split units like crazy to earn the big benefit

  • dcgamers

    A Hellbrute can get a legacy of ruin?

    • 301stFeinminsterArmoured

      Not a Daemon Engine so, I guess?

  • 301stFeinminsterArmoured

    Surprised he didn’t suggest something extra Cheesy, like taking a few Wings of Dreadclaws, so they all deploy in 2-4 model waves and get IWND, and act as a smaller, squishier yet more durable Land Raider.

  • BT

    Looking forward to you doing this for all of the legions Goatboy. It is a interesting take. Heck, it would even be neat to see 3 army types for each legion… shooty, melee, balanced. But it is fun to see a tourney guy try to squeeze out tourney lists out of these.

    • ZeeLobby

      Def entertaining to watch. Haha.

  • Djbz

    I notice you arm your chosen champion (I presume) with a combi melta
    He can have a meltagun.
    The first option in chosen allows up to 4 MODELS with any of the special weapons.
    And another option allows one chosen to have a heavy/special weapon

    So all 5 guys can have meltaguns if you want

  • Nicholas Ranégie

    I would love to hear your thoughts on Emperor’s Children. Warband or Kakaphoni formation, or both? I really can’t choose!

    • Simon Chatterley

      I did the math and to trigger the +1 strength and have all the toys even on min squads is very prohibitive and ultimately you have to weigh up if it’s truly worth it. I feel the FNP is a nicer way to run so I’ve been looking at the warband route personally which is a bit of a shame.

      Heck I even did a goat and chucked a cabal and a knight in one list…that in fairness wasn’t too bad

      • Nicholas Ranégie

        Well a cabal and a knight seems to make every list alot better! 🙂 but do you even need the extra strength for the formation to put out damage? 15 guys with blastmasters and sonic blasters is about 400p. Atheist one of the three units will have extra bs or Toughness with drugs. That’s alot of damage and pinning. With shred they would still do work. Don’t you think?

      • Alex Sivro

        This is what I plan on doing. Maybe not a knight though. A good cabal deathstar with very buffed bikes. That FnP is so delicious.

  • mysterex

    Can the World Eaters get a first round charge off after their 2d6 move or does the rule preclude this in the same way that scout does?

    Just wondering given the bikes and raptors the warband has access to.

  • Alpharius

    Rules. You don’t know them.