GW: Next Week’s 40K Prices & Products

money-roll

Fasten your seatbelts – We round out 2016 with a slew of 11th hour Grimdark products for you. Prepare your wallet!

We are quickly approaching the New Year and GW is knocking out yet more Warhammer 40K boxed sets.

 40k-armored-sets-2016

Warhammer 40,000 Boxes

Space Marine Tactical Tactical Squad: $55

Dark Angels Gauntlet Tactical Squad $55

Blood Angels Gauntlet Tactical Squad $55

Space Wolves Skyhammer Wolf Pack $55

Ork Trukk Boys $55

Astra Militarum Cadian Armoured Fist $55

Tau Empire Optimized Pathfinder Squad $55

Chaos Space Marine Desolator Squad $55

Dark Eldar Kabalite Skysplinter $55

Eldar Dire Avengers Skyblade $55

Necrons Warrior Ark Phalanx $60

Tyranid Tervigon Brood Progenitor $60

Black Library

cybernetica

Horus Heresy: Cybernetica (Hardback) $24

THE STORY
Soon after word reached Terra of Horus’s nascent rebellion, Mars fell. Rogue elements within the Mechanicum priesthood, stirred by the Warmaster’s promises of independence and prosperity, turned against the Imperium and forced the primarch Rogal Dorn to order an impenetrable blockade of the Red Planet. Now it has become clear that the corruption has spread too deep, and that more drastic measures must be taken if the Forge World Principal is to be reclaimed. Calling upon the expertise of those who witnessed the so-called ‘Death of Innocence’ firsthand, Lord Dorn and Malcador the Sigillite consider their final solution – the complete extermination of all life on Mars.

Written by Rob Sanders

Thoughts

Here are the big set of “armored infantry” kits for mosts faction. Each of these is a discounted box with a single squad on infantry and a transport for them. Not a bad way to grow your army out from the Start Collecting sets.

~Happy holidays!

  • nemesis7884

    PUUUURGE

  • E65

    Do they still print paperbacks of their novels?

    • Bonesaw1o1

      yes, typically the Hardback comes out first (and contain a few illustrations at certain points for extra fluffyness) and then a few months later the paper back will come out. The only exception I can think of was Baneblade which came out in paperback a few years back and was recently re-released as hardback

    • Usually about a year after the hardbacks, sometimes sooner, sometimes the paperback is the hardback + additional content instead under a different title. Laurie Goulding’s Slaughter at Giant’s Coffin Space Marine Battles novel for example is getting a general Scythes of the Emperor paperback including short stories instead, and Legends of the Dark Millennium: Shas’o was merged with Farsight into The Tau Empire.

      For Horus Heresy, the rule of thumb is hardback first, 3 months later the large paperback and then another 6 or so months later the old mass market format (which is only being done for HH now, everything else gets B-format trade paperbacks). Novellas like Cybernetica up above don’t get paperbacks, but are at some point included in mainline anthologies which will have them as per usual.

  • these box sets remind me of the old days. back when they sold motorized squads. I think these are mostly the same kits, except for the BA, DA and SW ones. only a lot heavier on the wallet.

  • euansmith

    40k, the only Universe in which brightly painted 7′ tall power armour can be viewed as “covert”.

    • orionburn

      And Ultramarines that are so tactical they’re tactical tactical!

  • Crevab

    Ooo, a space marine with heavy augmetics that ISN’T an Iron Hand? !

    • His name is Dravian Klayde, called Carrion by the Night Lords, and he lost his legs and arm to xenos. He was also a tech-marine.

  • orionburn

    Really pleased with GW continuing to bring out sets like these to make it easier to get into the game and/or start a new army. At this point the only thing I really need are a few more drop pods but can’t really imagine adding more tactical troops. $55 for a Rhino and to have a missile launcher and grav gun as heavy/special options is a nice bonus, although I’d prefer something better than the ML for the heavy slot. Wish they would have went with the grav cannon for the heavy and something like a melta gun for the special.

    All in all it’s nice to see. Maybe they’ll switch it up each year and do a different boxed set for the armies to keep these sets fresh.

    • Donald Lindsey

      The missile launchers is the standard issue heavy weapon for tactical squads. Honestly I like the dual purpose of missile launchers.

      • orionburn

        True. It’s not that it’s a bad option. I just have a crap ton of them and don’t need more…lol

        • Knight_of_Infinite_Resignation

          kromlech

        • Damistar

          Make them Devastators. A 4 missile launcher squad is a good answer for most things on the table top.

          • Pyrrhus of Epirus

            play the way you want, but a missle launcher Dev squad is not great on the table top if your playing somebody else who plays a competative top army.

  • Nyyppä

    Looking at the bundles there’s not much of a point in most of them. SM/CSM in a rhino is just throwing points away. Nids use flyrants, mucolids, possiby licktors and mawlocks but absolutely not anything that is in their bundle. The eldar are still about scatter bikes/WKs/council/warp spiders, not about the things in that box. Apparently Tau do not use the contents of their box either and same seems to go for Necrons. Not sure about the Orks or AM.

    2-4/12 boxes are not useless. What’s the point?

    • I’m sure WAAC / tournament players aren’t the target audience anyway, so no worries.

      • Nyyppä

        The audience seems to be that 1/100 person who does not know and/or use the rules for anything.

        • Hawt Dawg

          Sauron is envious of your Tzeench infested Palantir.

          • Nyyppä

            The real world calls it common sense. Sure, it’s not common in any real way at the moment but that’s what it’s called.

          • Hawt Dawg

            After changing my underwear and reading your posts again, I do not see any common sense.

            I do see a lot of me, me, me.

          • Nyyppä

            I’m sure there is something that can help with your underwear thing.
            You do not see common sense in things that are proven to be right by math after it is commonly accepted as the truth even without it? How….exactly?

            It is interesting that you saw “a lot of me, me, me” even though I did not refer to myself in any way after pointing out that I do not see a rational reason to buy most those bundles. Care to elaborate how you arrived to this conclusion or are you just building a straw man to dodge the actual issue?

          • Hawt Dawg

            Me = your point of view

            The is a reason models sell, and your logic is irrelevant to sales.

          • Nyyppä

            There was one opinion in the text and even that was mathematically accurate fact. Opinion or not, it’s the objective truth.

            If GW makes an obviously bad product (the rules for that product are a part of it) and people less than capable of making reasonably smart decisions buy them…is GW doing it ethically right or wrong? Is it ok the swindle money from the less capable?

          • Hawt Dawg

            Swindle? This is not the med market.

            Toys for kids and adults alike, some with bad stats that are awesome models, and vice versa. Most people do not really care if sales/models are to be believed.

          • Nyyppä

            It’s not honest business so “swindle” is a perfectly fine word for it.

            Awesome models with bad stats are for collectors. Models with viable stats are for gamers.

          • Hawt Dawg

            Viable stats is a whole different bag than useless or bad.

          • Nyyppä

            Not really. It’s surprisingly binary. There are useless and viable units. Viable then range from good to broken. Useless units are just useless.

          • SYSTem050

            I could go for “reasonded” debate but you know what i will just say bollox

            There are no useless models cause if I I like painting them/ playing them they have a use

          • Nyyppä

            So, since there were no logical arguments you went for an emotional one. I never claimed that people would not like the models. I claimed that these particular ones are useless in the game, because the factssay they are.

          • Hawt Dawg

            See Systs answer.

            We are right Luke, tell your sister we are right…

          • Nyyppä

            It’s not about your emotional response to the aesthetics of a particular lump of plastic. It’s about the utility value the box presents on the table. His argument has nothing to do with the rules of the game and because of that it is not related to this subject. You want to opt out of a fact based discussion because of your emotions?

          • Hawt Dawg

            You add emotion to this which makes me think of Monster Magnet when I read your posts.

            Love it how you put this mania on me when you claim no one is using X or Y.

          • Nyyppä

            Aesthetics are a matter of personal taste, which is an emotion towards a particular object. So, no. I added nothing. That is unless you have a way to prove that your aesthetical taste is a thing you can prove to be universally objective through hard sciences.

          • Hawt Dawg

            You really so suffer from amnesia don’t you?

            Either that or you do not care about what your posts contain.

          • Nyyppä

            Well, apparently you think you know better than I so please do enlighten us all.

          • Hawt Dawg

            Us all? Your hubris is remarkable.

            Look. At. Your. Posts.

          • Nyyppä

            Done. Now, what exactly am I supposed to see in your opinion, what exactly have I said that offends you so?

          • Hawt Dawg

            Offend me? Lulz!

            You wrote: SM/CSM in a rhino is just throwing points away. Nids use flyrants, mucolids, possiby licktors and mawlocks but absolutely not anything that is in their bundle. The eldar are still about scatter bikes/WKs/council/warp spiders, not about the things in that box. Apparently Tau do not use the contents of their box either and same seems to go for Necrons.

          • Nyyppä

            I wrote that. True. And?

          • Hawt Dawg

            And? Amazing.

          • Nyyppä

            It’s amazing that you quote me and expect me to see something that is not there without even specifying what you expect me to see. You literally add meaning to my words, meaning that you do not want to share and now you are offended because I do not read your mind. That truly is amazing.

            So, are you actually going to explain yourself or are we just going to have to accept that you had no point with this?

          • Hawt Dawg

            You still don’t get it lad.

            It isn’t about you.

          • Nyyppä

            Obviously not, never claimed that it was. It’s about GW making units useless in the game.

          • Hawt Dawg

            For you.

          • Nyyppä

            Unless GW somehow has separate line of products just for me it’s not “for me”.

          • Hawt Dawg

            They don’t so that is why it is “for you”.

            I am here all day.

          • Nyyppä

            So, based on what you said, the rules of the game in no way are a part of your hobby. In that case I get your opinion and where it comes from. Then again in that case it’s about you, not me or other gamers.
            If the rules are a part of your hobby this is just as much for you than it is for me. Actually it’s more for you since I opted out when it became apparent that GW intentionally makes sure that some armies are weak and I happen to be unlucky enough to like some of those factions.

            I get that you want to make this look like it’s my fault but as long as I do not design the rules you blaming me is just your disappointment and you not coping with it.

          • Hawt Dawg

            No, not what I mean nor what you wrote from the beginning.

          • Nyyppä

            Exactly what I wrote from the beginning. Useless rules are a thing that makes the game less fun that what it can be to everyone who plays the game. Literally everyone. The effect is there and you, as long as you play the game, can not avoid it. So, if you play the game it’s “for us”, not “for me” or “for you”.

            Try to get over it.

          • Hawt Dawg

            Still don’t get it do you?

            Useless is not the same as no one use them.

          • Nyyppä

            Nope. I get that you want to add meaning to my words so that your narrative can withstand scrutiny. I’m just not jumping through that hoop.

            I never said that no one uses them. I said that the unit is useless because of how they are designed within the rules. You are right, that’s not the same thing. I also never claimed that it was.

            Am I to assume that there are more of things you claimed I said that I’m going to have to correct or was this it?

          • Hawt Dawg

            You did claim no one used them.

            Amnesia was just added to your med files.

          • Nyyppä

            Where exactly? Quote the exact post where I did that. I looked for that before my last post and found nothing like that. At the moment I have no reason to believe you. Then again, it would not be the first time you twist my words.

          • Hawt Dawg

            Oh, how about my quote?

          • Nyyppä

            It has nothing to do with your claim.

          • Hawt Dawg

            Oh it does.

          • SYSTem050

            Of course it involves asthetics otherwise we could just use counters and bits of card with rhino, vindicator or tactical marines written on them.

            And again the point you are failing to grasp is that for some people the asthetics matter as much and sometimes more than the points. This fact (and yes it is a fact) may be incomprehensible to you that doesn’t mean it’s not real. There are plenty of facts I don’t understand I am though capable of recognising this failing.

          • Nyyppä

            We are talking about the game, how it’s rules work and how those define viable and worse units. Roughly rhino shaped card board thing would be just fine representation. Aesthetics do not matter in this conversation. If you want to debate aesthetics then this is not the conversation you are after. The fact is that this has been clear from the start and you just wanted to add them as a factor tells nothing about me.

          • SYSTem050

            Nope as much as you would like to read arrange the field this began with you saying “looking at the bundles there’s not much of a point in most of them”

            And many people have now pointed out that there is indeed a point to them because we quite like the contained units each for our own reasons. Some how you have got stuck at “these are pointless because maths says so”

          • Nyyppä

            Like I said, I never spoke about the aesthetics. I made that clear from the start. It’s not that I’m “stuck” at it. It’s that I do not go with re-framing the conversation to suit the taste of other people. If you want to talk about aesthetics that’s cool too. That’s just not this conversation. It’s ok to start another one.

            I have nothing against the aesthetics of any of those units. In game terms they are just sub par.

          • SYSTem050

            Right so when you said

            “Looking at the bundles there’s not much of a point in most of them”

            What you meant was.

            From my point of view considering these box sets simply as counters to be used in points optimised games of warhammer 40k I am unable to comprehend how anyone would consider purchasing them. In no way should this post consider the various other reasons may purchase games workshop products and any responses should only consider the mathematical potential of this product.”

            Why didn’t you just say that in the fist place 😉

          • Nyyppä

            I did. I just did not use those words. 😉

    • DJ860

      So for all the people who want to built beat-face lists, sure.

      For the other 90% of players who actually want more than trying to crush their opponent by spamming the strong units, they are value.

      Things you would buy anyway, at a discount, don’t see the problem with that.

      Have you ever considered GW aren’t targeting their products at people like you?

      • orionburn

        But it’s all about meeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!!!!

        • Nyyppä

          It’s all about balance and common sense. I get that you need to do what you did there to dismiss my argument. Otherwise you’d actually have to consider it’s merits and would likely end up in a situation in which you’d have to either accept it as a very valid point and admit it/shut up OR make a fool out of your self publicly. Now you have this cool shield of lack of understanding you can use to hide from the facts.

          • orionburn

            When I can have a conversation with somebody that actually wants to have an honest debate I’m all for it. The majority of the time the usual suspects do the usual complaining and it goes nowhere. So yes, I’m not going to waste time debating somebody that comes off as being “I’m so much smarter than you” in 99% of their posts. GW can’t please everyone all the time, and for some they can’t please ever. What you call facts is simply a matter of your opinion.

          • Nyyppä

            Hey, I’m up for a debate. Now you just announced that you know what I want, what my motivations are and had nothing to base that assumption of your on…after which you claim that I am the one here assuming that I am smarter than all/most of the other participants. Can you see the irony here?

            GW can please everyone who at least tries to like the game. It’s actually pretty easy. Relatively fluid and good rules and a good balance between and within factions is all it needs. That results to casuals and competitive crowd getting what they want and the narrative fluffers have a better starting point for their stuff. GW just does not have the skills to do it. Instead they invent game breaking stuff left and right, for example grav, present day iteration of eldar jet bikes, free transports, invisible 2++ rerolls and so on. The other side of the coin brings us WB, pyrovores, vespid, wyches, gorkanauts, the rhino and such.

            To me it seems that they are either stupid enough to not understand how the rules work or think that their customers are stupid enough not to notice how badly they have done things. It might be just GW being the old GW still, but that seems unlikely considering what they have done lately with their interaction with the fans.

          • Hawt Dawg

            I like you.

          • SYSTem050

            Me to 🙂

      • Nyyppä

        It has nothing to do with “beat-face lists”. Who wants to give away free points, handicap themselves for no reason and spend both money and points while doing that? I’m asking, because that is what the rhino does, no more, no less.

        I’m perfectly aware that GW is not making models/bundles for me. I am, or rather was a casual fluff player. GW makes models for WAACs and for people who just push the models on the table and have no need for any sort of rules while they make “pew pew” noises. Us, the in betweeners, we are the ones GW does not makes products for. If they did those rhinos would be either viable or replaced with something viable. Viable =/= broken.

        • There’s plenty of people (me included) who simply enjoy fielding units they like, regardless of their rules or whether they are optimal or not. A rhino is bogstandard equipment for the Space Marines, and I’d wager there are more people who simply *like them* than those who frown upon them for wasting points.

          I personally don’t give a damn about optimal list building for a strict environment. The experience has to be fun and compelling, no more, no less. If I’m not enjoying building, painting and fielding the units I bring to the table, what’s the bloody point?
          I wouldn’t play a Helldrake, no matter how strong it is, because I thematically despise it. On the flipside, I’d bring whatever underpowered units CSM have access to as long as it fits the theme of the force I’d like to field, as long as I can get a reasonably “pretty” model for it.

          • Nyyppä

            Cool. I like them too. I also understand that the standard of grav and s6+ shooting makes them pretty moot. Is it better to have 2 more wounds than a rhino? Yes it is.

            I’m with you on the fun and compelling, I don’t even like honestly competitive tournaments, but the fact remains that units that can not succeed in such an environment are not used in regular games either.

          • I won’t deny that the competitive scene and netlists have a large impact on the general environment of the hobby, but they’re hardly the alpha and omega. What exactly do you define as “regular games” at any rate?

            For me those would be laid back, fun romps on the tabletop, with little pressure to win and plenty of chuckles. As long as I have fun with the game and my opponent/partner, I win regardless of victory points or secured objectives. If my opponent brings two knights and a dozen grav weapons that’s hardly a game I consider worth playing in the first place.

          • SYSTem050

            Exactly some of the most fun games I had were when I lost (pretty sure I was tabled in fact in one).

            Realise it’s not everyone’s idea of fun and that fine just don’t assume that every one thinks and enjoys the same way I do (or has opponents who are also friends)

          • ZeeLobby

            Yeah. Personally I like tighter systems which don’t feel imbalanced from turn one, but I get why other people don’t care. It could also be because I’m a DE player (purist, none of those craftworld pansies) and when every battle is an uphill battle, things can get old.

          • Hawt Dawg

            Luckily you craft new and innovating post about the subject, over, and over, and over again.

            Damn it! I need to change my underwear again…

          • ZeeLobby

            and you’re constantly there to point them out with your passive aggressive wit! 😀

          • Hawt Dawg

            Having a big thingie makes that to a man.

            My wit owns you.

            Also, you should check out the new Victor/conquest model. Awesome and on my painting table with pigs with guns and sneaky tusks.

          • ZeeLobby

            Haha. It is one of the colossals I actually really like. Even with it’s chicken legs.

          • Hawt Dawg

            Chicken? Wait a minute…

            Turkey yes, but not chicken.

            Hard plastic baby!

          • Nyyppä

            Regular games = not tournament level competitive in terms of lists but still both players will do their best to win after the game starts.
            Taking it easy does not mean half assing it or doing obviously stupid moves.

            What you do not consider worth playing against in the first place is, if dozens of forums and other sources are to be believed, a soft list. It can not win a tournament.

          • Zack Seiders

            you call deathguard, emperors children and alpha legion under powered? In other news, real reason to bring a rhino is for something expendable to be shot at rather than the marines inside. Overall bringing at least 3 rhinos for this purpose (as well as give the chosen tax a shot at getting close for the meltas).

          • ZeeLobby

            I don’t think we can really comment on power level til we see where they place in high end events. I mean there’s been a ton of arm chair arguments on both sides. I’ll wait for results.

          • Zack Seiders

            Some of the legions are going to have it better than others “deathguard and army wide 5+ fnp, fearless, t5, relentless AND stealth.

          • ZeeLobby

            yeah, no doubt. I just think the core book they’re based on still has issues that’ll translate through. My issue with CSM was always that I felt like I wasn’t getting enough bodies on the field. This will definitely help with their survivability, but lack of footprint is still an issue.

          • Zack Seiders

            Long as the traitor legions are able to make an impact on the meta game I would not care “deathguard would have issues with genestealer cult and certain eldar lists… former due to mass rend ignoring everything save for 5+ fnp and eldar having ranged d weapons/ psyker spam galor.”

          • Nyyppä

            The TL is much more than just DG. Unfortunately the rest of it is useless but it’s more than DG.

          • Zack Seiders

            I am using deathguard due to them being one of the 3 better of the traitor legions (and I like nurgle). Alpha legion has infiltrating chosen as well as a tide of cultist, and emperors children having an army wide 4+ fnp for the marines (providing that you fork the points) in addition to combat drugs giving out buffs… extra ballistic skill (noisy units), strength and toughness (any close combat/ short range unit)

            As for the others I find alright, black legion and world eaters have the potential for turn 1 assault “bl is that raptor formation arriving on turn 1 to shoot/ charge” world eaters able to move far in on turn 1 “just hope you go first”.

          • Nyyppä

            Good for you. It’s great that that book gives something to someone.
            I personally do not get why infiltrating chosen would be great. The litrally best the manage to do is to shoot 5 plasma shots before dying to a stiff breeze and that cost just is not acceptable. The cultist spam is ok, but just does not fit AL in my mind, not the way they implemented it.
            The randomness of EC is just, well, too random. You can not have a coherent plan for them just because of that.

            BL seem to be a one trick pony, which is just boring. Not that WE are any different. The irony is that I have a KDK army and nothing in WE intrigues me.

            WB would be cool but they are just so damn weak that even the regular CSM laugh at them.

          • Zack Seiders

            Infiltrating meltas
            infiltrating flamers.
            Fact alpha legion gets turn 1 shroud is something to consider like for example buildings that ARE near by enemy tanks/ bunkers.

            Black legion, the hounds of abbadon got more benefits now that both votlw and mok is free for these guys. Cabal is pure cheese before traitor legions are a thing.
            World eaters translate to the sentence, are you going first.

            EC drugs the main trick is making sure list is actual balance (aka don’t spam one unit over), that way army does not get screwed over when you roll for something less favorable. (noise marine formation gets split fire and shred for their guns, so putting these guys along with chaos warband formation would make the drugs either benefit one, or both)

            By the way, I did not mention word bearers for the main reason that they are the worst among the traitor legions “too much rng for these guys”.

          • Nyyppä

            Infiltration get’s you up to 12″ away, so meltas are useless. Flamers get 2″ deep damage area, which is assuming perfect situation, bolters are just as good.

            Cabal is good, that is true. Not as good as librarius, but still perfectly viable.

            I’m not familiar with the way WE can make sure that they get the first turn.

            So, EC are pretty much just CSM with theoretically beneficial random bonus…just like WB. The split fire is fine, but has no targets in “normal” games. Maybe in some ultra soft narrative prearranged scenario but not really outside of that.

            WB fail not only because of their rules lack “oomph” but also because the rules pretty much in no way represent the legion in practice.

          • Zack Seiders

            You did not read the turn 1 shroud. “enough time to get meltas in a good position to melt something following turn”
            that and if you use lost and the damned with the alpha legion, you get a chance at double the cultist should 1 squad die… outflanking.
            WE is the same chances as everyone else.
            In regards to EC, all noise marines need to do is get close enough “via a rhino” to shoot the ever loving day lights out of infantry.. That and if you fork in enough points the EC marines get a 4+ fnp “which if the drug gives out an extra toughness, would translate into t5 4+fnp.

          • Nyyppä

            Those things that are good targets for melta shots are also fast enough to go away or wreck the face of those chosen. So, not enough time. We can not assume that the opponent is an idiot.

            Again, AL cultists are nice, not what they should be, but nice. Denying WLK is nice too. Nothing else in them is nice, though.

            So, WE has a roughly 50% chance to attempt something good.

            Those rhinos will die in droves, paper boxes as they are. Also salvo and moving is not a good combination. On top of that you have to have super luck and pay extra to make a squad tough enough for it’s points.

          • I called none of those “under powered”. I didn’t even name them. I made a general statement that I don’t give a damn how the power level of any given unit is in the eyes of the WAAC community as long as it seems fun to me. I’d field an “under powered” unit over an overpowered one any day if I prefered that unit thematically.

          • Zack Seiders

            One benefit of the deathguard bonus’s is just about anything in said legion is now… viable. all for the additional price of a mark of nurgle “best out of the 4 marks”

        • SYSTem050

          Perhaps because I like the idea of ten men mechanised squads. Reasoned debate or not you come across as I am right everyone else is stupid. Not a great starting point

          • Nyyppä

            That’s cool. It’s just that when you put 10 man CSM squad on the table you have already thrown away roughly 90 points. A rhino on top of that and it’s 125 points of waste while you get about 50p worth of stuff. SM get’s it a bit better since they can combat squad, do not have negative effects from having a sergeant and the rhino is free for them.

            Honestly, if someone is intimidated because of honesty and opinions backed by proof instead of emotions then maybe discussions like this where everything can be proven with hard sciences are just not their thing. A debate does not lack reason when it is hard, it’s just not a place for people who can not handle discussions with clear rights and wrongs.

          • SYSTem050

            You aren’t actually grasping the crux here though. In this scenario there is no “right and wrong” there is how I play and how you play. You can’t prove that how you play is correct any more than I can it’s not “hard science” it’s 40k.

            Is a ten man CSM squad with a rhino points efficient? Probaby not but I wasn’t arguing it was, I was pointing out that I like to play with 10 man squads of CSM’s in a rhino cause it’s fun. Personally I don’t care how you play or have fun I take exception to you appearing to approach arguments that everything in 40k revolves around efficient list building rather than simply taking an army that for whatever reason tickles me.

            Also if you want to at least pretend you are having a “reasoned debate” don’t claim your arguments are backed by proof when they are instead backed by your interpretation of information. Eg points aren’t everything to everyone.

            Tldr

            Don’t be a knobhead and understand that others play the game for reasons you believe are wrong

          • Nyyppä

            There is “right and wrong” as long as there is an objectively superior choice. It’s something that can be calculated as well as tested in practice. The way you, I or someone else plays has nothing to do with it unless there are some heavy house rules in place.

            I’m not criticizing they way you have your fun. If it happens to make you happy have baths with your toy soldiers, I do not care.
            I’m criticizing the fact that GW tries to force bad products on people. That’s all this is. They have models that do not sell because they are pretty close to worthless on table top and instead of fixing the rules through which the models would start to sell more they make them “cheaper” in real money. “Cheaper” because getting 2 products for a discount is senseless if you just shoot yourself in the foot by doing so. Essentially, looking at DA, you just pay more for things that give you no reason to field them. Same goes for CSM and BA. UM and SW bundles can be explained by logic and game terms.

          • The objectively superior choice is always the one that the player personally enjoys the most.

            If a player is in it only for the joy of building hyper-effective lists and stomping opponents into the ground, sure, he’ll probably enjoy strong, point-effective choices more than somebody who plays casually or for fluff reasons. But that does not make the fluff player’s prefered choices any less valid, or correct.

            The only objectively correct answer here is that subjective enjoyment and personal playstyle are the most important factor to consider.

          • Nyyppä

            That’s subjectively superior. Objectively superior is the most powerful option.

            I agree, that the fun factor is the most important value the game can offer.

          • SYSTem050

            Ok you really do not get it that’s fine no worries.

            There is “right and wrong” as long as there is an objectively superior choice. It’s something that can be calculated.

            No there really is not there are models and play styles I like and there are points efficient combos you like neither are right and wrong.

            They have models that do not sell because they are pretty close to worthless on table top

            Here I am going to go back to your “hard scuence” butt moan from earlier can you please provide referenced sales figures for which models don’t not sell well. Otherwise it is your opinion and to quote an earlier comment we do do know people are “ntimidated because of honesty and opinions backed by proof” so I would ask for said proof

            I apologize for being snarky so far though you have provided no emotional or physical evidence that you are in any way capable of comprehending that some one may disagree with you for reasons that are while foreign to you are reasonable

          • Nyyppä

            Yes there is an objectively superior choice. It’s not a matter of an opinion. It’s a math.

            I don’t think it was me who pointed out poorly selling models. I don’t seem to be able to find the post where I addressed the sales. If I did quote me so that I can answer to that.

            People are intimidated because of honesty and proof that contradicts their understanding of the reality. I mean, look at this place. People counter facts about game terms with opinions about aesthetics.

            I have no problem with people being snarky. I’ll take out right hostile over good manners if the first comes with objectivity and proof and the later with the opposite. People need to get a thicker skin and be more interested on how things are instead of how they feel.

          • SYSTem050

            Do you have that intimidated by facts and honesty speil as a short cut. I don’t know what you think it means but it makes you come over as a complete fannybaws

            The discussion here weren’t something along the following

            You: these boxes are pointless because mathematically the combinations included are sub par

            Myself and others : actually I quite like the look of them and enjoy fielding 10mean and rhino squads

            You but you are wrong they are mathematically sub par

            Me I know that but I still like to play 10nen and rhino squads. So therefore these boxes work for me.

            You mathematically you are wrong you can stand up to my mad honesty and reason skills

            Me still not getting you old boy I like the look of these boxes.

            To me there the superior choice is not solely based on mathematically optimising points it also includes a variety of other factors including shock horror how the unit makes me feel

          • Nyyppä

            Well, I’ve been talking about game terms here for a while now. Only about the game terms and how they define units as viable or not viable. The facts (which would be the rules and how they interact with each other) apparently did not yield to opinions based on emotion so some people added an emotion based factor in to the discussion. You actually admitted this right there in your post.
            If my reluctance to jump that hoop just to appease some people instead of sticking with the actual subject and the facts that come with it make me a “fannybaws” then so be it. It is better to be that than to start lying. What I don’t get is why you would deem it necessary to start throwing fallacies when this whole thing would have be avoided if you just said that regardless of the power of those units and regardless of handicapping your self by fielding them you still like the units and are going to field them in the future too. Instead you took the fallacy route and are now whining because I did not follow your narrative instead of following the original one.

          • SYSTem050

            Actually no this discussion has never been limited to “game terms” again this part of the discussion was started by you saying

            “who wants to give away free points, handicap themselves for no reason and spend both money and points while doing that?”

            To which I would respond me. I am realising that this completely incomprehensible to you unfortunately it’s true. I therefore refute that these boxes are pointless.

          • Nyyppä

            It was and is. I’ve been well within the parameters. Your refusal to do the same does not mean that the subject was something you wanted it to be instead of what it was and is.

            I get that you need to take the ad hominem route to feel good about your self. That’s ok. I do not care one way or the other. You should probably stick to things you know, though, since you have no idea of what I can or can’t comprehend. You can not insult a person who does not value your opinion about that person, it’s even harder when that person knows what she/he is and is not capable of. Your attempts are clear but futile. Try to attack someone else, maybe that yields the results you want.

    • Mordkanin

      Did you just suggest that Necron players don’t field Warriors + Ghost Arks?

      • Nyyppä

        Scarab farms, Canoptec harvests, token characters for special rules. Yeah, that does not seem like a warriors+Ark heavy.

        • EnTyme

          And yet those harvest are weaker without a Decurion to support it, and those Decurions require two units of Warriors. Now what should I do about those Warriors’ slow movement speed and limited range? If only there was some sort of vehicle capable of moving 12″ while providing a little bit of protection and even potentially bringing back any Warriors I should happen to lose. If only GW would release such a vehicle and put them in a bundle box with my Warriors!

          • Nyyppä

            There’s this concept of back field objective grabbing. Those warriors would do well in that job since it is not really wise to just rush everything forward and leave the objectives unattended. The Ark does not give anything worth it’s points to that squad.

          • EnTyme

            You have Tomb Blades and Immortals for objective grabbing/holding. Warriors are capable of doing that, too, but their gauss weapons can come in handy taking on high-toughness or high-AV models. Also, your argument is that Necron players don’t use Warriors/Ghost Arks, yet the Warriors are part of the prerequisites for using our most common list (Decurion). Do you really think they won’t be commonly fielded in a dedicated transport? Not even just for the durability increase from Repair Barge?
            Min/maxing aside, is it really so difficult for you to believe that some people field models they like as opposed whatever ranked in the top five of at least three major tournaments in the last year? If that’s your thinking, why do you think their are still Tyranid and Ork players?

          • Mordkanin

            The ark resurrects d3 warriors per turn and by itself basically IS a squad of warriors in terms of firing power. It’s not used in the top tier tournament lists, but it’s a model that people use in casual games fairly often.

          • Nyyppä

            It can’t take a D-shot but is a good target for one. That is not good.

          • Mordkanin

            By that logic, no one should ever take any vehicles. After all, a D-shot could just wreck them.

          • Nyyppä

            Pods are nice. They are very rarely good enough targets for sD thanks to being already empty. A rhino full of weak meat is a pretty solid target thanks to providing access to 2 kill points instead of one. Those free razorbacks are also ok, they have guns. The Kharybdis in Fist of Khorne is ok too. Things that usually deliver what they are supposed to before dying are generally ok or better.

    • ZeeLobby

      These are meant for people who don’t really care how the game plays. It’s not really worth arguing their existence as it’s just something that seems pointless to some, but makes total sense to others.

      • Nyyppä

        Yeah. I was not really trying to argue their existence. This was more of an expression of disbelief of the futility of their…”effort”. It’s like patching a brain piercing bullet hole with bubble gum and expecting that the person will be healthy again.

        • ZeeLobby

          Yeah. As someone whose constantly pointed out what I find ridiculous about GW releases, I’ve consigned myself to wait for 8th edition. Who knows, these units may be valuable in 8th, and the box sets were made with 8th in mind (doubtful, but possible). That’s just the way I’ll look at it until then, haha.

          • Hawt Dawg

            Constantly?

            You passed that long ago.

          • ZeeLobby

            rawr!

          • Hawt Dawg

            I know!

          • Nyyppä

            I admire your optimism. I see this as an attempt to sell obsolete (in game terms) stuff and that attempt should logically fail miserably. Then again 40k community seldom acts like a responsible adult should and because of that these can sell enough that, yet again, GW does not get the right message.

    • Kaylum Dicks

      It’s not hard to win without using the units you listed as mandatory. I win all the time, and I intentionally stay away from those units. Those units just make it easier for people to win, but they are far from mandatory.

      • Nyyppä

        Sure, if the opposing force is soft enough. Then again you always measure balance against the top contenders and honestly SM/CSMs in rhinos are not a winning combination. Tervigon is not that even in the soft games.

    • SYSTem050

      It is though amusing how the wheel turns as a year or so ago wave serpent spam was a thing. From your comment i would assume it no longer is

      • Nyyppä

        It stopped being one when the codex changed the serpent shield in to what it was supposed to be in the first place.

    • MechBattler

      “GW overcharges for models!”
      GW offers a discounted bundle.
      “GW gives us useless bundles!”
      http://www.laughspark.info/thumbfiles/705X705/funny-cat-haters-gonna-hate-4815.jpg

      • ZeeLobby

        Lol. I’d argue that useless bundles are pretty bad. Otherwise they just charge what they think people will pay. I’d give my left foot for new bundles with new models, but we all know it’s an avenue to press old stock.

      • Nyyppä

        Well, it does not matter how you package trash or what the price is, it’s still trash.

        • MechBattler

          So you consider armies troop choices and their corresponding transports, the core of any army, to be trash? That is very telling.

          • Nyyppä

            Since those are not units that win games but rather an inconvenient point sinks, yes, they are trash. The actual work horses are not in those boxes. The actual work horses are the things you want. Points used in useless things are points not spent in those work horses you want.

            Troops are fine as long as they do something besides wast points. Scatter bikes are a good example of a troop worth it’s points. White Scar grav bikes are nice too. Almost 200p of useless chaff is not. Most of those bundles are 200p or a little less of useless chaff.

          • MechBattler

            Troops are a guaranteed way to hold Objectives, which is how you WIN most games. Explain how that’s “useless chaff”. I’ve never seen a game won without holding objectives unless someone gets tabled, which is pretty rare.

          • Nyyppä

            No they’re not. Come on. These are basic rules. Troops do not have obsec by default. It’sall about the detachment. Even if they are from the right type of detachmen they are easy to remove thanks to other units that are actually played having the power to do so at will.

          • MechBattler

            That sounds more like a player that doesn’t bother using detachments that give ObSec to troops and has no clue how to use or protect those Troops units. Troops are meant to move in and hold an objective with the protection and support of other, more powerful units. How dense does a player have to be to just leave a Troop unit on it’s own to get shot up? Learning how to use Troops and other units in a synergistic way is 40K 101.

          • Nyyppä

            Obsec is really pretty much as moot as soulblaze. It pretty much never makes a difference. Because of this there is very little in terms of incentive to take detachments just because obsec.

            So, let’s take the typical scenario. You have this 10 man CSM squad in a rhino you swear are worth the points. It stands on an objective that the opponent wants and the unit the opponent is using to attack it is an invisible screamer star. The charge distance is 6″. How do you make sure that the CSM squad and the rhino survive the ordeal without a scratch?

          • MechBattler

            Are you sh1tting me?
            That question is so NOT typical and heavily loaded that it’s bluntly obvious you’re trying to engineer a scenario that NO unit is going to survive.
            If all you can do to legitimize your argument is fabricate absurdly one sided examples to support it, that tells me you don’t have much of an argument to begin with.

            But I’ll humor you anyway, with an answer that falls in line with what I’ve been telling you:
            The CSM squad sits pretty while their nearby Daemon Engine guard dogs get ready to puree anything stupid enough to think a charge is a good idea. Before you accuse me of doing what you’re doing, I run an Iron Warriors list, so I actually do use Daemon Engines in copious numbers. I’d never leave a CSM unit without a big metal beatstick within spitting distance of it. Whether that’s a Soul Grinder, Maulerfiend, Chaos Knight, or Renegade Knight depends on the tabletop conditions, but I’ll always keep something there.

          • Nyyppä

            It’s a basic situation on the table. the screamerstar is a basic unit for Daemons. You can swap the screamers to a wolfstar if you want to. It does not matter. it’s a game of super heavies, gargantuans, broken spammable units and deathstars.

            Ok, so, you have 200ish points of obsec unit and another 400+ points of vehicles there to support just that unit. Cool. On an average game of 1500p-1850p you can manage up to 3 of these combinations. Meanwhile the board is filled with summoned horrors while the opponent one by one kills off these “nests”. You are tabled on turn 4 or 5.
            That is how good the 10 MEQs in a rhino are.

          • MechBattler

            “Nope” for $1000.

            It is mathematically far fetched that a Screamerstar could chew it’s way through that many walkers in 5 game turns. Their Lamprey Bite only goes up to an AP value of 12 on average rolls. That only glances against AV12, which is the front armor for all “lesser” Chaos walkers. Knights and Soul Grinders are AV13.

            Even a maxed out unit of 9 Screamers only get 9 Bite attacks. At WS3, they’ll only ever hit their target on 4’s which means only 4-5 hits per combat. On average rolls, they’ll be lucky to manage 2 or 3 glances/penetrating hits against AV12, less against AV13. Their chance to destroy a single AV12, HP3 Daemon Engine in one turn is roughly 50/50. They’d take roughly 2 turns to drop a Soul Grinder, and at least 3 or more to drop a Knight.

            Anything less than a Knight doesn’t have much chance of hurting them, but those walkers will most definitely keep the Screamers locked down for a few turns.

            Things change when a Knight is thrown at them. While it’s Chainsword attacks can dump a lot of wounds onto single models and might even Deathblow a few, it’s the Stomp that can simply delete the Screamers, or better yet, the Heralds empowering them. With an average of 2 Stomps in every combat, the Knight’s odds of simply squashing the Screamerstar before they destroy it are around 60% over 3 combats. Throw a second Knight into that equation (as I’m prone to doubling down for insurance quite often) and the Screamerstar doesn’t stand much of a chance of living past two turns in combat with them.

            Even if, by some miracle, they survive combat with one or two Knights, they’ll either be neutered to the point of uselessness having lost multiple Screamers or Heralds, or they’ll probably die when the Knight goes nuclear as it falls on top of them.

            The long and short of it is that Screamers just aren’t that good against high AV walkers. Dumping half of a list’s points into a death star that can’t handle high AV very well is going to end badly against the kind of Iron Warriors list I utilize.

            PS – Your absurdly roundabout way of “proving” trooper CSMs are worthless is mind boggling. But it gave me an excuse to give all the rest of the readers here that didn’t already know, a highly detailed and legit way to curbstomp screamerstars. Spreading knowledge, I’ll mark down as a good thing.

            PSA – Got Screamerstar problems 40kers? Chuck an Imperial Knight, Khorne Lord of Skulls, or an Ork Stompa at them! Those pesky demon mantas might be fast, but if you plant your walking beatstick in the middle of the field you’ll be in prime position to catch them as soon as they stop to attack something else. Then they’re DEAD.

            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Wc3kwv0Ddw

            So sad Screamerstar…

          • Nyyppä

            There’s one problem with your calculations. You assume that the star is alone against a whole 1850p army. Obviously it will not be. The star alone is around 500p so to be fair I’d suggest that you do you calculations for that many points. There is a word that describes a person that against previous agreement brings several times as much points to the game.

            I wonder how well your argument will do when you take 70% of it away to make it plausible.

          • MechBattler

            I don’t want to hear that from the hypocrite that challenged me to get a 175 point troop unit through an assault from a ~700ish point deathstar.

            And yes, it’s roughly 700 points. Killed by two knights, which are also roughly 700 points. Which is exactly what most of my calculations were about – two knights vs a screamerstar.

            And on your point of a whole army vs the screamerstar. The point of the screamerstar (and any deathstar really) is to shove it down your opponent’s throat. Which means the enemy would bend all their resources to obliterate it, which is a perfectly legitimate and often employed strategy to deal with a deathstar during an actual game.

            Focusing firepower on a unit until it’s dead is a common tactic. So yes, ganging up a whole army on one unit is going happen because it works. Kind of like ganging up a deathstar that only functions with the support of half the army on one little unit of troops. Huh, look at that. Sound familiar?

    • DeadlyYellow

      I’m going to copy this post and show it to people who don’t understand 40k burnout.

      • Nyyppä

        Sure. Then come back and tell me how exactly are 10 csm in a rhino more useful than 200p worth of grav bikes.

        • DeadlyYellow

          Nah. You strongly impress as being That Guy. No point talking game with you.

          • Nyyppä

            Aww. Facts hurt your feelings. Poor thing.

          • Hawt Dawg

            Keyboard Warrior CEO.

            He post and forgets.