Goatboy’s 40K FMC: Flying Circus Revenge!

tzeentch-daemon-prince

Goatboy here again with another list extravaganza for your favorite Chaos giant winged monsters of the grimdark.

Goatboy here again – and while I didn’t get a chance to read up on the Fall of Cadia yet I did have another list extravaganza idea for an article.  If you’ve read my nonsense for awhile – you know I love the FMC (Flying Monstrous Creature).  It is my favorite type of unit in the game as it mixes everything I love about the hobby – big monster, tons of conversion potential, easy to paint, and kicks some butt most of the time on the table top.  You can see this in a ton of lists I play at events usually revolve around some way to get a bunch on the table, move them around, and maybe win a game or two.

 american_airlines-boeing-777

Have FMCs – Let’s FLY!

Of course beyond the hobby aspects there are the actual travel aspects of the army.  It travels small, is easy to protect in a carry on, or can even be simple enough to put in a checked bag.  All of these things are one of the big reasons I take them to events even though they might not be the best choice for the missions at hand.  Still I love em and while I would love to get in the top 8 and winners circle – the ability to survive an event means there is no way I am taking a 70+ model army.  So with that in mind I wanted to spit out a ton of FMC lists today in case other players want to fall into the abyss that is the Daemon Prince Building addiction.

I will present each lists, its strengths and weaknesses plus a little thought on what you want to do with it – i.e. spell rolls, play styles, etc.  Right now these will all be Daemon and Chaos Space Marine builds as the other FMC list taker is a bit long in the tooth and needs a decent refresh/point total rework (Tyranids).  With that – let’s go with one of the lists that are in the top bracket for the LVO.

tetrad-horz

6 Jerks of Doom

The Infernal Tetrad
Daemon Prince, MoK, Armor of Scorn, Greater Gift X 2, Wings
Daemon Prince, MoN, Greater Gift X 2, Lvl 2, Wings
Daemon Prince, MoS, Greater Gift X 2, Lvl 3, Wings
Daemon Prince, MoT, Greater Gift X 2, Lvl 3, Wings, Impossible Robes – Warlord

Omniscent Oracles (Wrath of Magnus Daemon Formation)
Fateweaver
Lord of Change, Greater Gift X 2, Paradox, Lvl 3

This is the basic full FMC list that plays to the strengths of the army.  It has decent summoning potential with the LOC and Paradox – it can throw out 4 Psychic Shrieks a turn and with the ability to reroll a seize it can hopefully go first versus armies it needs to get in the air.  Overall it is mostly immune to Grav.  I didn’t put in the Grim due to the nature of the army not having any Warp Storm Protection so it really needs to save that Fateweaver reroll to ensure a safe storm and maybe a chance to get +1 to the Invulnerable save.  A quick run down of psychics shows you how to plan ahead.

  1. Fateweaver – Locked powers and the random nature is why you do him first.  If you get cursed earth you know you can go into Biomancy and other powers on the Daemon Princes.
  2. Lord of Change – Most likely this will all be Malefic to ensure summoning.  Roll one at a time and if you get the first two you need then you can try to get lucky and get precog or something else in Divination.
  3. Daemon Prince of Nurgle – This guy has built in protection with Shrouding.  Malefic if you need to still get Cursed earth or Telepathy for Shriek and maybe a shot at Shrouding.
  4. Daemon Prince of Tzeentch – This again can be more Malefic if you need Cursed but I feel shooting for Shrouding or Endurance based on your gifts as needed.
  5. Daemon Prince of Slaanesh – Biomancy all the way as you need to get Iron Arm and other gun powers.  Getting him up to strength 10 is the only way you will survive multiple Knight lists.

From there make sure you summon some ground game to ensure you can score back objectives.  While this army is small it can summon so you will want to have some of those models to bring to the table top.  You don’t have a ton of psychic dice so you don’t need a lot.  Its mostly just a bunch of one off’s to ensure you can hold back objectives.

Summon List
Herald of Nurgle (Summoning him with a Grotti can do some funny things to bark bark star)
Herald of Tzeentch (Summoning him with a Grim if you are playing versus other Daemons)
3 Bases of Nurglings
1-2 Burning Chariots
10-20 Daemonettes (For the storm and basic summoning)
10-20 Pink Horrors (Depending on their ruling of the new split rule)
3 Screamers (In case of Incursion)
3 Plague Drones
5 Flesh Hounds

Why is this army any good?  Well any army that has models that are tough, move fast, and bring “free” units to the table top can win games.  I am hoping we get some summoning under control in 8th edition or at least for the Competitive side of it.  But this list is pretty small and while yes you have to bring some summoning stuff you can get away with a lot less if you want.  Plus the Tetrad can just be good and you know how the Warp Storm can wreck armies.  The super Warlord Trait can be huge too – with +1 to all Tzeentch guys in range.

magnusthered_landingbanner

Magnus and his 4 Bro’s of the Apocalypse

Next up on the FMC pain train is one of the newest ones on the block – Magnus and his 4 Bro’s of the Apocalypse. This one plays a bit differently then the one above – as the only real model you care about losing is Magnus.  The Daemon Princes – while good – are weaker then the Tetrad ones – but again don’t rely on each other to be better.  They can easily survive on their own.  Plus the army has access to the new CSM powers – which can give headaches to a ton of other armies.

Rehati War Sect – Thousand Sons Formation
Magnus
Daemon Prince, MoT, Wings, Lvl 3, Spell Familiar, Gift of Mutation
Daemon Prince, MoT, Wings, Lvl 3, Spell Familiar, Gift of Mutation
Daemon Prince, MoT, Wings, Lvl 3, Spell Familiar, Gift of Mutation
Daemon Prince, MoT, Wings, Lvl 3, Spell Familiar, Staff of Arcane Disruption

I threw in the Staff of Arcane disruption on one model to give the army a chance to Force something out like a Wraith Knight or put a ton of wounds into a Storm Surge.  This list plays like the Tetrad one above – just with less emphasis on protection the Tetrad.  The idea here is to make sure to stay within range of Magnus – help him boost up his free dice, and hopefully wreck an army or two.

Magnus has locked in powers so the Daemon Princes go into either the CSM powers based on who their a fighting – Death Hex, Diabolic Strength, Evil Fortune, etc are all good things to help you fight other armies.  Heck this list has no issues versus Knights as Magnus will D Beam jerks and the other guys can take massed Haywire powers to help remove Knight.  The same sort of things are also rolled too – looking at trying to get Cursed Earth and summoning options too.  Magnus will summon a Chariot almost every turn as needed – which helps immensely versus the Eldar Match up too.  Heck you get a steal power as well with the Treason of Tzeentch.

The biggest issue with this list is that the Daemon Princes are not nearly as survivable as the Daemon Tetrad ones.  Still – no Warp Storm, added Benefit of Veteran of the Long War with Thousand Sons ability, and 3+ casting with Spell Familiars means this list will get the powers it wants, when it wants.

Summon List
3-5 Burning Chariots
5 Flesh Hounds
3 Bases of Nurglings
10 Daemonettes
10 Pink Horrors

Flesh Hounds will be important as well as Daemonettes due to the nature of grabbing the basic Summoning spell.  The Chariots are a guarantee too.  Most of the time this army is looking for Cursed Earth and ways to boost up the “extra” Warp Dice Magnus can get from Siphon magic.

Duel to the Death Imperial Knight2

Khorne Knightly Princes

Next we are going to look at some more Extreme lists that try to pull in a pseudo like Daemon Prince unit – the Renegade knight.  In a lot of ways they act like a Daemon Prince without any powers in that they move fast, hit extremely hard, and can swing games pretty quickly with a single stomp.  This army is more designed for a local event where the stakes are not too high, your games should be fast, and the game should be full of big monsters doing dumb stuff.

3 “Khorne” Daemon Princes and Friends

Foresworn Knight Detachment
Renegade Knight
Renegade Knight

Infernal Tetrad
Daemon Prince, MoK, Armor of Scorn, Greater Gift X 2, Wings
Daemon Prince, MoN, Greater Gift X 2, Wings, Lvl 2
Daemon Prince, MoS, Greater Gift X 2, Wings, Lvl 2
Daemon Prince, MoT, Greater Gift X 2, Wings, Lvl 2 – Warlord

You could knock out one of the Psychic lvls on the Princes to get more access to Iron Arm but I think just going 3 Psychic Shrieks mixed with chances for Shrouding might be a better option.  Then these guys don’t fly too high, just Jink as needed and get involved as soon as possible.  Of course one throw into summoning or a chance for Cursed Earth might be needed too – just to get some backfield objective holders.

Kairos fateweaver

Knightly Oracles

The next Renegade Knight version would be looking at the Omniscient Oracles formation for less big FMC – but a better chance to cast spells and get the much needed summoning.  Of course if there is a new LOC model coming – this type of list would look pretty nutty on the table top.

Foresworn Knight Detachment
Renegade Knight
Renegade Knight

Omniscient Oracles
Fateweaver
Lord of Change, Level 3, Paradox, Greater Gift X 2
Lord of Change, Level 2, Impossible Robe, Greater Gift X 2, Lesser Gift
Lord of Change, Level 2, Greater Gift X 2

This list gets a bit more protection in Fateweaver and his Warpstorm control, you have a bit more psychic power and of course the wonderfully powerful Paradox.  You do have less access to interesting spells but these FMC are designed to get involved, get punching, and hopefully crushing the enemy.

Typhus_Battle

Calling in Sick

Finally we have some lists that have to be built around the Warband shell of a Traitor legion. There seems to be a lot of avenues to create massed FMC lists – and while the loss of a “small” army is somewhat annoying – the gains of bodies to hold objectives and extra “rules” that match Daemonic Gifts makes for decent replacements.  Right now you have to look at the legions that give the most rules to you.  Or have access to some of the “best” artifacts.  We already looked at a Thousand Sons version and the final list we will look over is the Death Guard massed FMC option.  They seem to give some of the best sets of extra rules to their units.  With that let’s look at a list that tries to use a “cheap” war band to help facilitate an FMC dominate army.

Vectorium Death Guard Build

Core: Warband
Typhus
Chaos Terminators X 3, VoTLW, MoN, Power Axe X 3, Combi-Melta X 3
Chaos Space Marines X 5, MoN, VoTLW
Chaos Space Marines X 5, MoN, VoTLW
Havocs X 5, Autocannons X 4, MoN, VoTLW, Rhino, Peridus Rift Anomaly
Chaos Biker X 3, MoN, VoTLW, Plasma Gun X 2

Aux
Chaos Spawn X 1, MoN

Lord of the Legion
Daemon Prince, MoN, Wings, Lvl 3, Spell Familiar, The Black Mace, Gift of Mutation, VoTLW
Daemon Prince, MoN, Wings, Lvl 3, Spell Familiar, Plaguebringer, Gift of Mutation, VoTLW
Daemon Prince, MoN, Wings, Lvl 3, Spell Familiar, Gift of Mutation, VoTLW

This is just 3 big ole princes designed to cause Havoc.  The Warband is just there to hold objectives and not get too involved. Typhus can come down with the terminators, have objective secured, and just be a pain in the butt wherever they land.  It has enough WC dice to do some annoying things and bodies to ensure you have some hope to win the game.

All of these lists are designed to have limited amount of models to fly with as well as have an army that is pretty easy to build and paint.  Sure the summoning aspects add more models – but beyond a few things you don’t need all of it if you don’t plan on summoning.  Most of the time I just bring in a Chariot or two and Screamers if I get Incursion.

~Do you have any other FMC lists you like to throw out from time to time?

  • mrbleak

    What happened to 40k??? what are these lists??? (except the last one)

    • J Mad

      How is this different than 4th ed “Nidzillia”?

      • Karru

        These lists are nigh unkillable with a standard list. 4th edition Nidzilla lists were strong but even a standard, balanced list could defeat it.

        If I brought my normal SM army against this, I would lose. I don’t use Demi-company, spam Super Heavies or Grav. I play single CAD SM army most of the time with no Allies.

        I could bring that same list against a 4th edition Nidzilla and beat it quite easily, 2 Hive Tyrants and 6 Carnifexes isn’t exactly terrifying while these guys are summoning units left and right while being pretty much invincible to regular fire due to flying.

        • Muninwing

          this makes the case for the external limiter that i was talking about in one of the other threads…

          you get 5 “build tokens”
          you can spend them on..
          – number of psychic dice (until the psychic phase is fixed)
          – additional detachments or formations
          – buying things from other books (so 2x formations from one codex = 1 point, but 2x formations from two different books = 2 points)
          – FMC, FGC, GC, superheavies

          you’ll notice that just by limiting these choices, the worst offenders get culled pretty quickly. superfriends would become too costly. it would be possible to run a Knight House, but your other options would include zero psykers and maybe one other codex… or you could not run a whole house but instead would need other strategies. but other more reasonable builds would be fine.

          • Charon

            I would still call 6×3 scatterbikes and 3×5 Warpsiders one of the worst offenders and it is still a zero token option but possibly a lot more powerful than most 2 token bulids.

          • Muninwing

            yeah… showing again that if points-values are not address first, no other method matters.

          • Karru

            I think my approach would be much more simple and easier to introduce.

            You may only take a single army building method. If I take CAD, I have access to Allied Detachment and a single formation. I can take multiple CADs after 2000pts limit is reached. If I take the Alternative Detachment, I may only take formations that are part of the selection. I may not take any additional detachments, for example a CAD, Allies or Formations that are not listed as part of the Alternative Detachment. This makes you committed to a specific army building style. Alternative Detachments give you extra rules, but you are now forced to use only formations. If you take CAD, you don’t get extra rules, but you can take more flexible army.

            This of course also contains all the “special” detachments, like the Sisters of Battle one from the Imperial Agents codex. The idea is that you many no longer build a legal army using only formations like those above. You have to use an actual building method if you want to make a non-unbound army.

          • Muninwing

            why not change the formations that you are complaining about? the concept of formations is not the broken part, but that’s what you are attempting to fix. instead, fix the parts that do not work instead of layering a rule on top meant to modify a broken (and disparately broken) implementation.

            because if i were to use a Ravenwing and a Deathwing detachment or formation in my army… it’s fluffy, it’s straightforward, it’s not too powerful, and it’s designed to be synergistic with each other… but it’s got zero freebies to hand me and it’s not a huge exploitative build. but the “1st and 2nd” are somehow not allowed?

            neither are what a Gladius/Decurion are. neither are quite so bad as the Admech/Skitarii teamup. but rather than fix the ones that are broken, you want to clamp down on ones that are not in a blanket with the others.

          • Karru

            A solution, yes. It would require an entire Codex release from GW to do so. It’s not like GW can just do an FAQ and say “Hey guys, you no longer get Freebies with the following formations”.

            That’s a problem when it comes to all GW books. They won’t fix singular things in them, they do the whole book at once. The only way GW would justify an entire codex release would be to include new stuff in it. Entirely new units or just new plastics kits for existing units.

            So instead of getting one big rulebook that would fix things like Assaulting and Super Heavy, Gargantuan and CAD/Formation Spam, we have to wait months for GW to release an update for one army and then move on to the next one. Also, those book releases mean that something else got pushed back. I’d much rather see a new Guard Codex or Chaos Space Marine Codex and not new books for Eldar, Space Marines and Tau again.

            This game is nothing like a video game on steam. It’s not like GW can just release a quick patch that fixes problems within the game. It will take months from GW to get a fix out. Our options are either to wait a year before we get actually something new and have a chance at balance or GW does one giant thing in the form of fixing the Core rules.

            Also, formations are broken mechanic. You have no limitations on how many you can take at all. There has to be a limit if you don’t go Unbound. It is a major part of any tabletop game and points are not enough for that. Formations and Alternative Detachments should be a matter of choice, not a necessity.

            Again, it’s not that simple for GW to fix Eldar, Tau, Space Marine and Ad Mech in a single release. They’ll need months to get new books for them and of course new shiny models to go along with it. People despise having to buy new books constantly, especially if there is literally nothing new in it. It’s like buying a remastering of a game for the same price you bought the original one. Do you really think GW could just release 4-5 books that do nothing but fix the problem units and formations?

          • Muninwing

            “that’s the problem” — yes.

            and again, i’m suggesting that they fix the problem.

        • J Mad

          These list are extremely small unit counts, just play maelstrom and win on objectives. Kill what is killable and win via points.

          Or dont play against them…..

      • ZeeLobby

        Well, my DE have a chance of actually winning against Nidzilla.

        • Charon

          DE are a bad metric for both matchups.

          • ZeeLobby

            Why? My DE used to have a chance of winning against every army. Now there’s whole factions where unless your purposely spamming the worst units I’d basically have to flip the table to win.

          • Charon

            Because they hardcounter nids anyways no matter what they use and get trashed by almost any other “all comers” upper tier army.

          • ZeeLobby

            I mean venom spam counters Nids, but I’ve beat nidzilla with a good wych army as well with good play. Throw down some knights and FMCs and there’s no good option. That’s the point. I could take a well rounded take all comers list in DE and face Nidzilla.

          • Charon

            You are talking about 4th where you could get away with just spamming wyches and they were considered a good tournament build right next to lance spam?

          • ZeeLobby

            Nah. 5th. Wyches and raiders. See Nidzilla was just regular MCs, and what this meant was you could take big units if cheaper troops, or in this case models with good saves in CC, and simply tie them up and play for the objectives. How am I ever going to tie up FMCs or SHs? They’re just bad for the game as there’s very little that can actually counter them. Especially in a take all comers list.

          • Charon

            Depends on the army. Post necron armies have little problems.
            All about the power gap.

          • ZeeLobby

            Right. They’re clearly different than Nidzilla, even 4th. The gap between Nidzilla and SHs/FMCs/GMCs is massive. I’d argue that Tyrant spam is more applicable, but then it’s easier to deal with, as you’re not dropping summoned units onto objectives the entire game.

    • Karru

      7th edition. 7th edition happened.

      • ZeeLobby

        6th and 7th. It just didn’t happen til mid 6th

    • Painjunky

      This is 40K… Where have you been?

      • mrbleak

        I stopped playing mid way through 6th cause it felt horrible. I knew it was bad but these lists don´t even have 2 troops, i wasn´t expecting this level of … garbage

        • ZeeLobby

          Haha, Yeah. Having followed this drain-train it’s not that shocking for me, but I can’t even imagine taking a 2 year break and coming back to this.

    • nurglitch

      It’s just Goatboy. Spam is what he does.

    • Kaylum Dicks

      These are called, the ‘I suck at tactics, so I’m going to spam powerful units and hope I win’ lists

      • Charon

        I believe these are called “formations” from official GW publications.
        The formation literally says 4 Daemon princes, or 1 – 6 Daemon princes + Magnus.
        Not really sure why the player is to blame for using an intended detachment.

        • Muninwing

          the blame should rest with GW for not properly balancing the choices.

          but some of the blame lies with the player for choosing to use the cheez.

          still, the actual blame falls with GW for not realizing that some players would exploit the cheez, and reacting accordingly.

          assumed external morality is not a limiter. it is an advantage to those who do not have it.

          • Charon

            This has nothing to do with “morals” Else Eldar player would have quit 40k in 2nd edition already.
            If an official formation says 4 daemon princes, using it is neither an “exploit” or “cheese”. It was obviously intended to use the formation the way it was written.

          • Muninwing

            i misrepresent myself…

            by “morality” what i mean are the external limitations of what people feel they “should” or “should not” do. not a codified moral structure, or an evaluation of fairness, but an assessment of whether it is an action that compromises the spirit of play.

            in that there is a broad field, since there’s a certain amount of meta and expectation involved. if you live in an area where the social contract of playing revolves around competition and exploitation of rules, then the “should” in many cases is a positive. but even then, trouncing a newb without a post-game critique is a jerk move, and that becomes a “should not” (for the sake of the game and the community).

          • Charon

            The problem is that “fairness” is strictly subjective in this game. It is a personal view and depends on way too much factors to be codified in any form of “social contract”.
            There are even people calling terminators “unfair”.
            The line between “stop crying ond play” and “yeah that combo is probably a bit too much” is fluent and outside of circles of friends who play each other regularly nearly impossible to find. It took us months and sometimes even years to get a feeling for each others list and playstyles so we can have roughly balanced games. And even then we produce outliers in power levels.
            In a pickup game? Impossible.

          • Muninwing

            i would argue that this is more of an indicator that the current mechanism for creating balance in the game is perhaps not functioning properly…

          • Charon

            It actually never did.
            Killing an entire army before the first turn in 2nd ed. ?
            Invincible Falcons in 3rd?
            Leafblower lists?
            The list goes on and on. Neither points nor army organisation have been working properly since forever.

          • Muninwing

            you’re not wrong.

            and more importantly, you can read why:

            look up “points values — who needs em!” by Jervis Johnson. it’s a pretty coherent declaration that what they do is arbitrary and not codified.

            i like to use the phrase “adjust the points algorithm” but in all reality i do not believe they have any sort of algorithm. they kludge it together pretty much on a whim and an afterthought.

            if they put a real structure in place, gave it an actual try, i’m betting that we could then discuss case-by-case real issues…

        • Thank you, exactly. And it’s really not any worse than what it is designed to fight

    • grim_dork

      In all likelihood I’ll never see a list anything like this across the table because we just play regular old 40k with regular working game dudes.

      As mind-blowing as lists like these might be on paper honestly there’s no reason to panic. We play some games amongst friends and drink a couple beers, and it’s not an national competition for any of us. If I ever did face a list like this it would be a unique event and probably really fun to try to take it down.

  • Agent OfBolas

    If I would like to play 6 miniatures on table, I would play other game. Big model spam is killing 40k.

    • Heinz Fiction

      Exactly. Lists like this shouldn’t be possible (And to hell with Knights).

      • Karru

        Knights wouldn’t be so annoying if they weren’t Super Heavies. Make them just Walkers and they are relatively fine.

        Lists like these are the reason why I suggested that Super Heavies, Gargantuans, Flyers and Flying Monstrous Creatures were made into slightly better versions of their smaller counterparts. For example, a Flyer is a Fast Skimmer that can move up to 18″ in the movement phase and still shoot all its weapons or move 24″ and shoot with 2. Flying Monstrous Creatures would be just Jump Monstrous Creatures that can move 18″ instead of 12″ in the movement phase. Super Heavies and Gargantuans keep their special shooting rule, can shoot all weapons at different targets for example, but they can only move 6″. Super Heavy Walkers and Gargantuans can move 6″ and shoot with all their weapons or move 12″ and only shoot with one weapon.

        Super Heavies also ignore any bonuses to the Vehicle Damage Chart, but no longer ignore results. This means they can never explode, but can be shaken, stunned, immobilised and made to lose weapons. They could get a save for it, 4+ for example and then it turns into a glance.

        Next up would be the way armies are build. You’d always have to have either a CAD or your Alternative Detachment, but never both. You can add formations to that, but only for each CAD you have. In the case of the Alternative Detachment, you many only have formations that are part of the Alternative Detachment. This makes sure that lists like these are no longer legal, except the last one.

        • ZeeLobby

          Your first sentence hit it on the head. Just need to remove fliers, SHs and GMC from 40K core again and I think we’d see a lot more armies that look fun to play against.

          • Muninwing

            flyers? nah. very few flyers are actually that bad.

            most flyers would be limited if there was an off-the-table AA option… like as part of the HQ choices there was an option for off-the-table AA to affect flyers on or off the table.

            superheavies and gargantuans have… problems. but grav-spam and d-weapons are just as bad for the game.

            change the points algorithm (or create one and stick to it), and you could mitigate the worst of it.

          • ZeeLobby

            Eh. Flyers were unnecessary. It added another element that can be abused to an already imbalanced rock-paper-scissors game. Add to that the factions which still have almost no AA, and it’s just another skew factor that a TAC list would never be able to prepare for. Not to mention the flyer rules being applied to MCs is what makes them broken. Having them be on the table for multiple turns is already unrealistic (they should really just be strafing or at most dropping off a unit and then flying off the edge), so they should have just been left as skimmers. They worked fine before the snapfiring was added.

          • Karru

            A lot of the problems would be fixed if GW took some time to actually play test or even outsource it. General’s Handbook was a great success and balanced the game greatly. The secret was that it was made by an outside source and not GW.

            Flyers become a problem once people start taking more than 1 of them. Most AA in the game is useless against everything else besides Flyers. Opponent didn’t bring Flyers? Well, all those points you wasted on AA are now gone and won’t contribute to the game at all. You brought some AA but your opponent brought 3 Heldrakes? Well, better pray those AA unit(s) make it until they arrive or you’ll have a very bad time.

            It’s the 6’s to hit that makes them so powerful. Many Flyers have great damage output so they are a giant threat once there are multiple in the air. If they removed that, it would be much better for everyone. Immunity to Blasts would be enough for them.

          • Muninwing

            the last time they outsourced something, it was the 5th ed FAQ.

            i wish i still had a copy, i’d show you what that yielded. utterly terrible.

          • Muninwing

            i think that the immunity to blasts was actually more of a thematic problem.

            blasts are how some AA works. something that affects an area would be more likely to hit, not less.

          • Karru

            Yes, if those shells were actually meant to detonate near a target and not the ground. Most likely the vast majority of Blast Weapons that are used in 40k are meant to detonate when they are hitting the ground. A Battle Cannon round isn’t meant to be an AA shell.

            There is also the fact that the flyers “supposedly” fly at extremely high speeds and altitudes over the battlefield and that explains why they are so hard to hit from the ground.

          • Muninwing

            so some, but not others. yet the rule is “none.” it’s a flaw.

          • Rudboy TheRed

            My local group plays like that and CSM od DE can fight and win against SM or Necrontyr, it’s CAD (+ one formation or allies on blogger games)

          • ZeeLobby

            Yeah. I mean there’s all kinds of ways they could add restrictions to the core rules to improve the game. The problem is that it’s gone unrestricted for so long that adding them would affect existing armies. On top of that unrestricted means they can sell someone a infinite number of anything, so I doubt we’ll see it in 8th, though it would improve the game.

  • Djbz

    In answer to the question at the end of the article, no I don’t have flying monstrous creature lists.
    Because in my experience with almost every monstrous creature (flying or not) is being blasted off the board so fast that makes their hefty points cost not worth their inclusion.
    I stick to bringing extra troops and/or tanks and walkers that can survive a round of bolter fire.

    • Karru

      It’s actually pretty easy to field an army like this. Just stick them behind LoS blocking terrain, turn them into flyer mode and laugh as your opponent can’t do anything to them. Spam summoning until the board is filled with your guys and overwhelm the opponent or just camp Objectives. That’s the idea anyway.

      • Djbz

        The dice gods just don’t like me using monstrous creatures
        (They also don’t like me passing invulnerable saves or look out sir against attacks that will kill important characters)
        It must work Ok for others or we wouldn’t see lists like those, but for me it’d be an auto lose.

        • nurglitch

          Ditto. Summoning would be a damp squib, and I’d fail all my grounded tests to boot.

        • grim_dork

          I hear you there. Feel No Pain? Hardly. A FNP roll in my game is more like a Feel More Pain roll, because I will fail it and then feel the pain twice.

  • Terrordar

    And again, Goatboy decides that what this game needs is more broken garbage.

    You’re part of the problem Goatboy. You have no shame.

    • ZeeLobby

      Eh. He just works within the boundaries GW sets.

      • euansmith

        Yeah, he’s just thinking outside of the elephant and addressing the envelope in the room.

      • Muninwing

        but he encourages others to play — and to think — like this. instead of attaching a caveat of shame to the people who deliberately try to exploit the rules and their opponent for their own jollies.

        • ZeeLobby

          None of this is really “exploiting” the rules though. they’re just bad rules. If anything it’s highlighting what is wrong with the system.

          • Muninwing

            this is a philosophical argument.

            does the person who incites violence with fiery rhetoric merit any guilt when someone acts on their words? the other person chose to act of their own free will, but never would have if not for the demagogue urging them forward.

            if a player is constantly exposed to the netlist-waac-supercompetitive aspects of the game, they will adopt what they see as the necessary attitudes toward the rules and toward their opponents. just as they would if all they ever saw were the narrative-immersed version. neither is “right” so much as both are incomplete.

            some of (and i would actually argue the lion’s share) of the blame falls on those whose systems create this ability for exploitation. but the choice to exploit the rules — and to show others how it is done, to partake of the same situational advantages and systemic flaws — is willingly being a part of the problem, which in itself carries some of the blame.

    • meh. He’s a competitive player showing how you break the game. Competitive players break the game because if they are going to a competition they know their competitors will also be breaking the game.

      • ZeeLobby

        Yeah. It makes me hopeful that with GWs greater involvement in tournament play will influence rules/balance to bring greater variety to the tables.

        • They would need to focus on competitive play to bring the game to the level it needs though, and they have never done that so as such, I am not very hopeful.

          • ZeeLobby

            Yeah. I guess it’s this last straw of hope I’m holding onto for 8th. Most likely I’ll just be leaving GW and heading elsewhere for competitive games.

          • Muninwing

            you just summed up why 8th ed WHF stopped selling.

          • ZeeLobby

            Haha. Yeah. It’s sad but true. I just can’t understand why they don’t see it. Honestly, to bring it back, they’d have to spend money, and they’re just so dedicated to maximizing profits with minimal investment, that I just don’t see that happening. Too bad.

          • Muninwing

            you just summed up why 8th ed WHF stopped selling.

          • Muninwing

            they would need to care.

            until i see them address the massive imbalances in points-costs, i do not believe they care.

      • nurglitch

        He’s not really breaking the game unless he’s winning competitive tournaments using those armies, and unless I’ve really fallen out of touch he’s not one to rank, let alone win things like Adepticon.

        • meh I disagree. One can break the game and still not win tournaments if one is playing against other players also breaking the game but whom are better.

          • ZeeLobby

            Sadly it’s probably a significant mix of skill and who broke the game better, instead of just skill.

          • Yeah. The only real way to test skill IMO is to remove list building altogether. However, having seen online polls – list building is something most players seem to heavily enjoy and favor and consider a “skill” as well so …

          • ZeeLobby

            Oh, I agree. Not sure I’d want to remove list building completely either. At the same time you can definitely shift the weight of either in their contribution towards a win. At this point I think 40K is in it’s worst state of being decided by list before the game starts.

          • nurglitch

            I wish the actual top players wasted time blogging army lists, so we could have actual insight into the lists they fielded.

          • Charon

            They do. They just dont do it in environments where half of the population screams “badwrongfun!”

          • nurglitch

            Got any helpful links?

  • I fully expect summoning to go the way of AOS wtih 8th edition for competitive play and remove the concept of getting “free points”.

    • ZeeLobby

      I’m honestly not really a fan of having summoned units cost points, but I also don’t totally understand how that works in aoS. As long as they’re guaranteed to come on, so basically it’s the same as just holding units in reserve, I guess I’m OK with it. If there’s a chance they don’t arrive, I’d just rather make summoning spells difficult, expensive and/or dangerous. Personally I think it’d be fun if you had to buy spells just like wargear, but things are going simpler and that’s more complex.

      • Nyyppä

        Summoning in AoS does not work. It’s so damn weak it’s hilarious. You essentially do the 40k DS equivalent and if your summons fail or your summoner is killed you just lost the points. It’s literally the stupidest thing in that great game. The number 2 is also related to getting more models on the table. After that there’s just the ability to shoot in melee during shooting phase and then again in combat and the dumb rules of that game have been listed.
        Now that I’ve played it a few times I can’t see other bad general rules in it. I’m sure that there are some more in specific unit entries, but the general rules are otherwise just fine.

        • Red_Five_Standing_By

          Shooting into and out of melee is whatever. Not a big deal. It makes ranged units some what better but, meh. GW could change it with the next General’s handbook.

          I hate summoning with a passion. It is easily one of the worst mechanics in both 40k and AoS. In 40k it is ripe for abuse and leads to terrible issues. In AoS, it is fragile and weak.

          • Nyyppä

            If you disregard the new horrors it’s nothing to be upset about in 40k either.

          • Muninwing

            in pre-GHB AoS, it was stupid strong, particularly in some builds.

            i get why they wanted to include it. but they did it badly. they need a better implementation.

      • euansmith

        They could just remove summoning and have Sorcerers count as homing beacons, like Icons used to.

        • ZeeLobby

          I mean I would prefer that over some pointed mechanic that can result in failure. Just sounds like massively fluctuating value.

      • StingrayP226

        What if Summoning could only be used to REINFORCE squads? So you have a squad of 8 Bloodletters and 6 just destroyed then you could summon 6 more Bloodletters to boost the squad back to 8… not 10 Horrors that you never had to begin with. Means summoning can be powerful (keep squads full) or a waste (squad just gets evaporated).

        Also removes some summoning silliness that is totally lore breaking.

        Psychic Phase imho needs a lot of revision… seems too swingy from WAY too powerful to joke abilities. Random deciding what you get and chances to peril add to the complete flip floppy nature of it (get the right rolls and you can just stomp the opposition… wrong ones and that was a bunch of wasted points). Especially for factions like Thousand Sons that need to do thier work in the Psychic phase… They need specific abilities to function (IE Doombolt or some other anti Vehicle to deal with tanks).

        • Djbz

          Only being able to reinforce exsisting squads would be a decent fix for summoning.
          And the psychic power system does need an overhaul, the warp charge cost of powers is supposed to be representative of their power but many are out of whack
          (Angel of Death powers are some of the worst in that regard, straight up better versions of other powers with the same or lower cost)

          • ZeeLobby

            And I realize Eldar are supposed to be psychic pros, but good lord can they generate way more warp charges then almost anyone else. It might just be because I play DE though, and not having psychic powers NOR any ability to defend against them is pretty depressing, haha.

        • ZeeLobby

          Funnily, this same pattern happened with 8th edition Fantasy before they torpedoed it. The magic phase had the ability to remove armies. I agree the psychic phase should be more consistent.

      • I don’t have a good answer to be honest. In a competitive environment though free units are free points and its stupid to NOT max out on that and that to me is bad.

      • Muninwing

        i’d love to see it be a bargain…

        (not as in a “great bargain” but as in a “bargain with the devil”)

        either…

        (A) you can buy units that appear later, paying for them in the list (like how daemons functions in the 3.5 codex), in which case they functioned exactly as they would normally…
        (maybe if the allies matrix isn’t fixed, they’d count as BB for the unt that summoned them, AoC for units with marks of chaos, and CtA for everyone else)

        or…

        (B) if you didn’t plan on it (like you rolled a summon power you didn’t expect), or if you churned through all your summoned units… you could keep going. but each unit cost you a victory point, or some other balanced mechanic disadvantage. maybe every 200 points’ worth cost you, or maybe the more there were, the harder they were to control (dropping levels of the allies matrix).

        that way you could still play summon armies. you could still drown your opponents in nurglings. but if you summoned too many, they might go rogue on you or destroy your own goals (bloodthirsters might destroy the complex you were trying to claim, horrors might warp mathematical reality around the cogitator you needed info from, etc).

        alternatively, there’s also the idea that summoned daemons might be controllable. as in, your opponent might be able to use a mechanic to wrest control of those daemons from you, and use them to their advantage. a mechanic for that could be a great balancer — it would limit effectiveness while tying up resources. and the more daemons you had on your side, or the more you summoned, the easier it would be to “lose track” of them and have them poached by an opponent…

    • 301stFeinminsterArmoured

      They should either market a “tactical reserves” deck for advanced play, or tie summoned unit availability to purchasing those units, the way they were in 3rd ed for Chaos.

  • David Beattie

    What points size were these built around?

    • orionburn

      Going to guess 1850 as that’s become the standard for most tournaments.

  • extrenm54

    Awesome lists!!! I vote Magnus.

  • Simon Chatterley

    Sorry goat, but you lost me today when you used Khorne as “Khorne” and went psychic. I know these are tourney builds but it makes my eyes cry blood whenever I see people using psychic on them. “Blood magic” is not a thing and shouldn’t be used to excuse this horrific abuse.

  • Charon

    Only possible with GW players.

    GW releases a formation that consists of Magnus and a number of daemon princes.
    Player uses this formation.
    Player is accused for breaking the game.
    WTF….

    • Red_Five_Standing_By

      You are implying GW gave the idea much thought, nor cares about balance.

      • Charon

        No, I dont.
        I imply that some players tend to rather blame the player for a faulty product and not the company they are paying for creating said product.

  • benn grimm

    Lol… yeah not quite cheesy enough, better luck next time 😉

  • 301stFeinminsterArmoured

    Tetrad plus KDK Drakes. Yeah, I know, nobody likes DftS, but Reserves manipulation, Blood Tithe, 4++ IWND Drakes, what’s so bad about that?

  • Beau

    I have been kicking around a rehati list that is Magnus +3 DP’s WITHOUT WINGS to be able to also afford Fateweaver and LoC from omniscient oracles. Everything is barebones as hell though which limits some of the psychic potential… I just think having Magnus + Fateweaver working together on the table is BJlicious

  • One nice side of running these kinds of lists: after 9 years of primarily collecting chaos, I have like 13 princes and a decent amount of daemons to summon, so I could pretty easily build every list up there (ok technically I’d need magnus and spare prince of Tz.

    That said my reaction to these formations is more to use them in 2500 point plus missions. I really want to run a tetrand. with a greater daemon and lesser daemons for each god.