40K: The Case For Lower Point Games

I'll get down now.

There is no doubt that 40k has bloated significantly in the past few years.  Here’s a case for lowering army points limit for events.

by CaptainA

Problems Problems

Many armies can summon now.  It’s not just Daemons, with units like the Psyclopia Cabal, Psykana Division, and Librarius Conclave being chief at getting easy summons off. We also have other units like the Tau Piranha formation that drops off massive amounts of drones only to go off and come back with more. Genestealer Cults can summon new units as well and even orks can get on the Daemon summoning train. We also have many formations that regain lost units like the CSM Legion formation and at least a couple of Tyranid formations.

99120101063_spacemarinerhinonew02

Then there is the rising trend of free units and upgrades. Battle company is chief among these as they can get around 12 free transports for their various squads. This makes an already large army even larger and sucks up time to play. As GW continues to use rules to sell models (not necessarily a bad thing) there is more and more that a player has to keep track of and use during games.

Then there is the reduction in cost of units that GW is pushing as well. Many models are now cheaper and therefore it is able for a general to field much larger forces. Larger forces take longer to play typically. Also, many armies are able to spam high volume shooting and psychic forces that drain a lot of time in that phase. Renegades anyone?

time-warp

Tick Tick

The problem is time. A recent Major event saw many games not getting past 3 rounds with at least one game not getting past two. I was playing my Genestealer cult and two of my games got to turn three with the others getting farther, but most of my games had to use the splitting of last turn mechanic where if we were 20 minutes or less in the game we each got 10 or less and finished the game that way. The last game of the LVO 40k Champs only went to turn 4, with both players splitting the last 30 minutes of play. This is not ideal.

The-Usual-Suspects

The Usual Suspects

So here are some problem when it comes to timed events in a list format.

  1. Larger armies – we are able to field larger armies for the same points.
  2. Summmoned units – Summoned could mean any number of things for armies but basically getting new units in game.
  3. Resurrected units – units coming back that keep the army at its optimum size and points level.
  4. All Phase Armies – the ability that most armies have now to engage in every phase of the game adds to the time of each section.
  5. Multiple sources – armies made of different sources require lots of bookeeping. Just the psychic phase alone can use four different books to generate powers from.
  6. Fast paced release style – great for gamers but hard to keep track off. Lots of, “What does that do again?” in game.
  7. Large point level games – 1850 is the standard ITC event point level, which is a lot.
  8. Long phase armies – Some armies take so long in certain phases. Mass shooty armies can take an enormous time shooting, heavy psyker long in the psychic phase, etc. etc.
short-on-time

Keep the Time in Mind

So lets get into the turns themselves and how much time a tournament game gives each player. I’m going to assume that each player has 15 minutes for deployment AND pregame rolls to get the game going. Lets take a look at how much time a player has each round for a 2.5, 2.75 and 3 hour tournament game.

Minutes per round (5 Rounds)

2.5 Hour Game – 12 minutes per player per turn
2.75 Hour Game – 13.5 minutes per player per turn
3 Hour Game – 15 minutes per player per turn

Minutes per round (6 Rounds)

2.5 Hour Game – 10 minutes per player per turn
2.75 Hour Game – 11.25 minutes per player per turn
3 Hour Game – 12.5 minutes per player per turn

Yes, there is some hyperbole here. Some armies take longer to deploy while other armies are rather quick. Some armies take no time at all such as a drop pod army, but their deployment comes in those first couple of turns. The main point to look at is how much time a player has for each round. In a two and a half hour game you only have 10 minutes to complete each round to get to turn 6. This is an average. Most turns are bigger in the beginning and shorter near the end, but that means that you only have 60 minutes to do your entire armies turns in if each player is to have an even amount of time. Yes Max, I hear you that different armies function in their own way and some take longer than others, but in a tournament setting, many games are not completing to a natural conclusion if my half baked casual polling is of any good!

Again, you will spend more time in the beginning of the game than in the latter part, but still, you will need to make up that time in those latter turns.

TL:DR The game is bloated and tournaments can’t give enough time for natural conclusions. What are we to do?

choice

Solutions

Longer Tournament Rounds – Adding more time would be a good thing. Most tournaments are at the 2.5 to 2.75 hour rounds which is barely enough. I feel 2.75 is the minimum needed for events.

Smaller armies – 1650 was floated as the ITC level but got shot down. I’d love to collect data at this years LVO to see how many games not to a natural rolling dice conclusion. Devils Advocate – at 1850 my GSC army has 169 models. At 1650 it still has 146 models. That’s still a ton.

Time Clocks – Some type of chess type clock would make things “Fair” but some armies do take longer than others. I use Objective Secured to time my games and use it more to keep me honest, but this could be an option.

3d_red_question_mark_button_image_165506

Conclusion

I think something will need to be done to make the tournament scene a better place for games to finish in a natural time setting. I think longer standard games and smaller armies are the best bet to get these games done on time. What about you? Are you experiencing something similar? If you went to LVO, how many of your games went to a natural conclusion?

~Any other ideas? Post your thoughts below.

 

Remember, Frontline Gaming offers up to 25% off on Games Workshop products every day if you’re looking to start a new army or add to an existing one.

  • Darth Bumbles

    Why not 200 point games?
    You’d get swarm armies fighting small squads of elite troops.

  • vlad78

    Lower point games and alternate activation.

    • jeff white

      Exactly

      • LeroyJenkinss

        No thanks.

        • jeff white

          ok, i can let go of alternate activation, but would be nice if gw offered an alternate system, and let players decide…

          • ZeeLobby

            I mean AoS combat has it and people seem to love that. I dunno. I think a lot of people would really like it. The only people I’ve seen who hate it have never played it.

          • Jeremy Larson

            All it takes is for one back “I go and look I go again and now you’ve lost,” and it pretty much kills a player’s interest in the game. Seen it multiple times with AoS. Stupid amount of player turn-over in that game.

          • Basti Schreyer

            When talking about alternate activation you need to be careful to specify what exactly you mean since the idea can be implemented in different ways.
            In AOS you have to differentiate between the in-turn alternation of: one of your units attacks, then one of mine, then one of yours and so forth.
            The other thing is thre rolling off each turn to see who gets first player turn that round.

            While alternate activation makes close combat interesting, I feel the initiative system is perfectly adequate and makes a lot of sense in combination with the idea of powerful weapons reducing your initiative. No ‘my powerfist termis go first because I said so’ shenanigans.

            Randomly determining first player turn (probably what you meant) however seems like an aweful idea to me. Having seen how it can randomly give one player two turns back to back who then turns a near loss into a victory based on one lucky roll made the whole game seem pointless.

            Indeed that is one of two main rules reasons that turn me off from AOS. The others being the ability to shoot into a close combat even while your archers are in a different close combat themselves.That’s just too much silly for me.

          • Loki Nahat

            ironically I’ve never met anyone who enjoyed it (AoS)

          • euansmith

            Roll for Initiative
            The winner can chose to move first or second.
            The first player moves all their units, except for any in contact with an enemy unit.
            The second moves all their units, except for any in contact with an enemy unit.
            Both players alternate to chose units; the unit can either fight or shoot.

  • Greg Betchart

    Serious Question: Is there a prolific writer here that supports large games and non-tweaker lists (lists that aren’t lists for every point and rule combo)?

    • LeroyJenkinss

      No bra. This is bols.

    • CloakingDonkey

      This is specifically about tournaments, isn’t it? So what does rich backstory have to do with anything? 😛

  • Angry Panda

    I support large player games; it is a medical fact that players who play large point point games have far larger balls then others.

    It’s because larger point games cost more money, and typically people who have more money have bigger pepe’s as well.

    Smaller games=small schnitzels
    large games=king kong jumbo gumbo

    • Greg Betchart

      There are the outliers, which are (1) people that have little money, but have played for 20 years, and so have built up slowly (2) people that got the minis second hand from someone else and (3) bank robbers

      • Angry Panda

        I strongly disagree. According the Charles Darwin, the most prolific man in all of history, every living creature competes with one another; it’s the Survival of The Fittest.

        Social Darwinism is the exact same thing. There are two kinds of people in this world: people who have money and people who don’t. 1) The people who have money naturally have bigger wangatangs and stomp out the lesser people who don’t, and can enjoy the larger point games. 2) The people who don’t have small wankadoodles and are forced to play lower point games until the day they die, in which they will breed no more offspring for being inferior.

        This is FACT. Eventually the lower point gamers will die out, and the rich and superior species will come dominate in this world.

        • Bran D

          I have lots of money and will never satisfy anyone with this package…

          • Angry Panda

            It’s because you don’t have a mating ritual. I have mated and pleasured many woman, all of which were attracted to my 250 pound body of fat and male sexual dominance. What makes the ladies go crazy is when I corrode myself in $100 dollar bills that act as a aphrodisiac for incoming women on the streets. Most scream and run, but some are lured in by my irresistible sex machine body.

          • Commissar Molotov

            I am intrigued and would like to subscribe to your newsletter.

          • Angry Panda

            Only the rich can afford my news letter

    • jeff white

      So I guess u are a banker ?

      • Angry Panda

        I am a Global Capitalist looking to take peoples money and horde my addiction and fat junk.

        • jeff white

          so, you must identify with death and destruction, then?

          • Angry Panda

            I identify as a white privileged male who is dominate in society; death and destruction are simple outcomes upon the weak and poor.

          • Adam Wright

            I identify as a cis-Fire Raptor gunship that is IoM/Chaos fluid.

          • benn grimm

            Yup, sure sounds like a ‘b’anker…

  • Arcangelo Daniaux

    Why not just got back to the 1500 points 1 CAD from 1 codex… That may look crazy, but sometime, what worked in the past can still work today.

    • Heinz Fiction

      The way it’s meant to be played™

      • Votic

        Problem, is that favors certain codex’s (Eldar, Tau, Space Marines come to mind) while D-Eldar, CSM (post Drake Nerf), Orks, Genestealer cult, ect get left out in the dark.

        • jeff white

          But can work much better if we hang the spammers from their underpants during the first beer phase

          • Nathaniel Wright

            It’ll take all of us to lift them.

          • LeroyJenkinss

            I second that

          • ZeeLobby

            Haha. Highlander actually works really well once you take out allies.

        • Arcangelo Daniaux

          Except for the Eldar and Tau, who are just too strong anyway, Most of the people I know that I have hard time to win against where using the “Bad” armie you listed and a CAD. Plus, as a Blood Angels and Space Marines player… I’ve to say that they both aren’t that good with it, because only troop are objective secure and they have to pay their transport… Making them way weaker that with a space marines detachments or formations.

          Next, from a game design point, it make it easier to balance a game when you only have to calculate the pure strength of a unit, and not the interaction that came from a formation,… Or those formations/detachements should have a point cost, like in the old days of apocalyps, I’ll even say a point cost by unit in the formation/detachement. More rules = more points, simple logic (and don’t say having to get a “bad” unit for those rules make for it). But for that point cannot be fixed by event organiser.

        • CloakingDonkey

          Isn’t that true for any points level though? I mean those tournament army counts the other day suggest that Eldar Spez Mureens and Tau are the big daddies even at 1850 😛

        • Karru

          Actually, this is not true. With CAD only and no Allies, Eldar, Tau and Space Marines start to lose a lot of their power to the point where skill can once again prevail.

          For example, Space Marines now have to make a choice between Bike spam and their Transports. If they want their Transports to have Objective Secured, something that many SM players rely on, they have to take Tactical Squads. This means a lot less Grav on the table, both in terms of mobility and quantity as bikes can take 2 Gravs while Tac squad can only take 1 Gun and 1 Cannon.

          This makes it easier for armies like Orks that see no problems fielding 6 units of 12 Boys in a Trukk against that. On top of that you’d have Nobz in Trukks and Lootas in the backfield while Deffkoptas soak Overwatch shots.

          Eldar also suffers in this system. With the ability to take “only” 2 Farseers and a maximum of 3 units of Warp Spiders as well as a single Wraithknight, the Eldar power level drops significantly.

          Tau takes a huge kick. Losing the ability to take Riptide Wing is massive. Now they have to choose between Riptides and Battle Suits as they share the Elite Slot.

          The massive advantage that these armies have comes from spamming. Their regular advantage comes from their superior books, but take away their ability to spam and they start losing their power fast.

          People seem to forget that armies like Orks, CSM and Dark Eldar have no options outside CAD really. Now CSM does when the Traitor Legions came out and we have seen all three armies do relatively well in normal games from time to time with CAD only. Now when EVERYONE has to use the same army building methods that they use, the playing field is now on the level.

          • Reven

            There is still the Farsight Enclaves that use Crisis as troops instead of Elites.

          • Karru

            But that means “wasting” points on the bonding knives and still no Riptide Wing running around. It’s still much better than the current situation.

          • Shawn

            In a single CAD Eldar can take D-weapons and Tau can bring a riptide. I really don’t think they’re losing a whole lot.

          • Karru

            With Tau, unless they are taking Farsight Enclave, they are now able to take up to three Riptides, but for each one they cannot take Battle Suits.

            Also, those Riptides aren’t getting +1 BS from standing near each other, nor shooting boatloads more than they would normally do. They also cannot re-roll their nova reactors. These are all something they get from the Riptide Wing formations, something that makes Riptides extremely overpowered. 540pts for three Riptides is over 1/3rd of the allowed points as well. This is without any upgrades.

            With Eldar, they can only field D-weapons in two ways on mass. Wraithguard and Vaul’s Wrath Batteries. Both of these are relatively easy to kill and are quite expensive. They can only take one Wraithknight max in this system.

            If the Eldar player is taking Wraithguard and Vaul’s Wrath Batteries, it means that they aren’t taking as many Jetbikes. 1500pts is spend very fast if they want to “spam” D-weaponry.

            Remember, we are talking about a single CAD AND 1500pts limit.

          • Shawn

            Well, to be honest, I wasn’t aware of all the Tau’s restrictions or formation up grades, etc. I only play against them. Also, while I have played against them at 1850, the only 1500pt tourney I had there were no tau, and only one eldar/de player and he mainly used jet bikes.

          • Karru

            Indeed. I have noticed this to be the case in many situations. People believe that the books themselves are utterly broken, no matter how they are fielded or what restrictions are present. Tau is actually very fun army to face when they are also using just CAD. The formations they can use are hilariously overpowered. For example the Optimised Stealth Cadre makes it so that Stealsuits and the Ghostkeel, when within 6″ of each other, get +1 BS, Ignores Cover Saves and always hit the rear armour of vehicles no matter the facing.

            Just one of the many reasons why I am strongly against formations and alternative detachments in regular games.

          • Shawn

            Gotcha. At least in casual games some of this can be discussed. Now in one tournament where it was supposed to be a CAD, I faced off against Tau, but unlike some palyers the Tau player actually played to the theme,Tanksgiving, and played Tanks. He brought only one riptide. That was a fun game, even though I lost. It’s because I knew I had a chance to win and that’s all I ask for in the game. Needless to say, someone brought a warhound titan and the Eldar player brought a Wraithknight. Guess which two teams were top tier?

    • Commissar Molotov

      Way too sane, man.

    • Votic

      If there was better game balance between the factions it would work. problem being is there is quite a bit of poor balance from codex to codex.

    • ZeeLobby

      Yeah. I miss when people used to have a faction identity.

      • Xodis

        Did you just assume someones faction? lol

        • mike

          Dear white dwarf,
          I’m tau, but I’ve been experimenting with iron hands.
          Now my draw to iron hands is much larger than anything I’ve felt for my tau, despite my supremacy suit and all its glory.
          I’ve also just painted up magnus the red.
          Will people accept me for who I am or should I go back to tau and live a one factioned lie?
          Yours sincerely,
          ConfusedFactionite

          • Xodis

            Dear ConfusedFactionite,

            If you buy it, we will all accept you.

            Sincerely,
            GW Marketing Team

          • mike

            Yay acceptance for the factionfluid!

        • ZeeLobby

          Eh. I just miss the crazy Ork player, or the devious Dark Eldar player, etc. The chaotic daemon player. Now it’s Imperium, Chaos or other, lol.

          • Xodis

            I totally agree about ork players. They seriously kept the game at a fun/difficult level….I think Orks being on the back burner is hurting the game more than anything. It just doesn’t feel right without them in most typical scenes.

          • ZeeLobby

            Yeah. I miss the big Waaaaaghs common to most events back in the day.

          • nurglitch

            What about us Warhammer 40,000 players that own multiple armies?

          • ZeeLobby

            Then proudly don your multiple personality disorders! Or play unbound (the option that’s always existed but fluff players never recognize because secretly they want to win). I mean there were options before, ones that didn’t break the game.

          • nurglitch

            I’ve always been a Warhammer player, first and foremost, or at least since I got back into the game after quitting in a huff about GW’s rules/prices/moral intransigence/etc.

          • ZeeLobby

            Haha, they have forever done some questionable things. I’m patiently waiting for 8th to give me a reason to jump back in. I mean I LOVE the other systems I play. Gameplay is great, I rarely find broken combos, etc. But I’ll always have the 40K universe and old world ( 🙁 ) at heart.

    • 1500 points was the standard game size in Europe back when I actively played, which is 4th and 5th edition. Always worked really well.

    • nurglitch

      Nobody is stopping you.

  • Entheogen

    1k games are a blast

    • jeff white

      The table is big enough to make a difference

      • ZeeLobby

        So true.

      • euansmith

        Yeah, room to manoeuvre shouldn’t be undervalued.

  • jeff white

    Problem for tournaments may be time but for normal games the problem is that the table is too small to allow enough strategy to make things interesting. 1500points on a 6×4 works.

    Using rules to sell new models is ALWAYS a bad thing.

    • Aezeal

      Formations need points.

  • Red_Five_Standing_By

    Smaller games are better.

    • euansmith

      Small and perfectly formed.

      • Commissar Molotov

        And tapered at both ends.

  • CloakingDonkey

    2.5 HOURS PER ROUND??? Holy crap… How does that even work, how do you play an entire tournament in a day? I mean I guessed rounds would take longer than with Warmachine, Flames of War or Bolt Action but 2.5 hours? That’s nuts. Why not just go down to 1500 points?

    • Ronin

      3 if you count set up time. But yeah, 40k tournaments are an exhausting affair especially multi-day ones.

  • LunaWolf

    In theory it’s a great idea, but in practice all it’s going to do is give other forces fewer things to deal with armies like Battle Companies getting loads of free stuff.

    If there’s not going to be any sweeping list restrictions put in place, that I can’t imagine we’ll ever see, the only functional choice is longer games.

  • OptimusDerf

    Some of the best games I’ve ever played were 1000 point games.

  • snakechisler

    here’s a radical idea how about 1 formation only single codex 400 points max on LOW Maelstrom and 1650.
    the game is a mess at tourney level and is completly unrepresentative of gweneral club play

  • ZeeLobby

    Man. It’s going to be a LOOOONG road to 8th, especially with an issues wrong with 40K article every day. Not that I don’t agree with them, it just seems to drag the time by, haha.

    • euansmith

      Embrace the hate. Your fury will bear you up.

  • I prefer 1500 point games these days.

  • Xodis

    1350 always interested me the most. Could usually get an awesome unit or two with little support, or a nice all comer list to handle most things thrown your way.

    • Basti Schreyer

      I know exactly what you mean. Having 1000 to 1500 points games in 5th was exactly like that. Unfortunately GW’s escalation politics has made it almost impossible to build 1000 points lists for pickup games because the kind of things you likely encounter now were limited to apocalypse back in the day.
      Having a classic, wrellell-rounded 1000 points list encounter a wraithknight usually doesn’t end well.
      GW makes a lot of money selling power nowadays and they probably won’t stop just because it undermines the whole way how their games used to work.

  • eehaze

    1,250 and 1,500 pt games usually end up being my favorite casual games.

  • TenDM

    The problem I have with smaller games is that the books don’t really support it. I’ve played plenty of small games but they’re only fun when we have an unspoken agreement to take it easy. That doesn’t really work in a tournament setting.
    I mean amongst the many reasons I think people simply don’t want to see champions crowned when everyone at the tournament was holding back. I’m a big fan of the idea of restricted/limited units in tournaments and low point matches but it has to be more organised and balanced than just lowering the point limit and hoping people play nice.

    • Basti Schreyer

      The main problem is that turnaments by definition foster a WAAC environment. When you scour 40k for the most effective comps and lists it is just natural that natural selection breeds a stale meta in a game like 40k, where balancing never was the main concern anyways.
      Nowadays GW makes a lot of money selling power. When the game allows you to have more stuff without paying extra points it just inflates the amount of money you need to build an army at a certain points cost.
      Since GW’s profit comes from selling models while they have to pay people to write rules it os clear to see why balancing is a minor concern.
      Then look at the current (online) WAAC mentality that embraces the powergaming mentality wholeheartedly.
      It becomes obvious wenever anything new releases and the first question asked is how ‘playable’ the new stuff is.

      Back to the idea of low point matches. It works great when the list you bring can hold it’s own against all other lists. Basically the game needs to be balanced so that your opponent can’t bring stuff a well rounded 1000 points list can’t hold it’s own against.
      Lords of war or formatoions are nothing any list below 2000 points should ever be forced to face.
      They used to be reserved for apocalypse and the game was better bevause of it.

      • “The main problem is that turnaments by definition foster a WAAC environment.”
        No. This is a 40k issue not a game issue. I’ve played in a number of Infinity tournaments where most people were there just to have fun a play against people they’ve never played before. I agree with most of the other stuff you said, but tournaments can be tons of fun even for the majority of players that have no shot at the top table.
        GW has created this environment by ignoring balance issues and taking a hands off approach to the community. Very few people are actually WAAC players. They are just a convenient scapegoat for a community that refuses to admit that there are fundamental problems to the game that quite often have been introduced by GW as a “feature.”

  • Jeremy Larson

    The problem with lower-point games is that it makes the power disparity between armies even more apparent. A grey knight, imperial guard, or Dark Eldar player will have issues putting together a moderately-effective army at 1250-1500 points, but an Eldar player or Gladius Marine player will still smother those players in Warp Spiders and free transports.

  • Sleeplessknight

    Cancel all tournaments. The game wasn’t meant to be played like that anyways. You could have ongoing games that take hours, weekends or even months to play! Imagine unlimited time limit and as many models as you could fit on the table! Also people with the tournament mentality suck the fun out of the experience when they play against casual gamers.

    The solution is to force tournament gamers to either submit to the casual playstyle or just make the tournament gamers not play and force them from the hobby altogether. Then there will only be casual gamers left and harmony.

    • benn grimm

      Lol.

  • doughouseman

    We ran 1500 point games at Origins last year. Games ran about 2 hours each, and people had plenty of time to make moves. Other than point value we ran a vanilla ITC tournament.
    Everyone who played had a great time, and said the games were competitive. The meta was a little different, but not so much that is was way out of whack with the 1850 meta.
    We have several months to decide the final point value for Origins this year, but we probably will return to standard ITC rules.
    I liked it as a game runner, because there were fewer questions about rulings than in any previous year. The players were less stressed than in prior years.

  • Warboss_Stalin

    Quick play is the preview of experienced players…last saturday, I went to an 1850pt tourney and every game for me ended by dice roll, because the foes knew what they were doing.

    • nurglitch

      This. Being able to move models, roll dice, and think on your feet is how you should be able to play if you’re planning on competing. I feel like players not finishing under the time limit should result in a loss result for both sides. 2.5 hours for an 1850pt game is perfectly reasonable.

  • Karru

    Simple solution would be to reduce the max points to 1500pts, Single CAD, no LoW that has more than 5 wounds/hullpoints and no Allies.

    This removes massive advantages some books have, like the underpriced Wraithknight and Imperial Knights, but will still allow the use of HQ LoWs like Calgar and the like. With no Allies, people have to play around their armies strengths and weaknesses and it makes it harder to make deathstars.

    Restrictions to summoning would also be great. For example, Daemons/Chaos are the only ones capable of summoning, but only up to 500pts total.

    Also making the Invulnerable save not re-rollable would be great if it passes a certain point. For example, Invulnerable saves of 3+ or better cannot be re-rolled. This makes deathstars that much weaker. Making it so that you can never take two 2+ saves in a row would also be beneficial but I understand that many tournaments already do this.

  • 40KstillRulesTheTT

    1500 points battles up to turn 7 take 5 hours now for players who, even if only sporadicly, need to look up stuff in their books or think a lot about an action. Saturday this drove me crazy… Genestealer cult must be a real nightmare to play at 1850 points

  • 301stFeinminsterArmoured

    Simple: make all Psychic powers cost points to use, and make players pay a flat cost for the units they want to summon. Then extrapolate additional costs for free stuff Formations/Detachments, based on what the free stuff is. Armies with larger unit footprints should be allowed to base their models like swarms, with all the bonuses and penalties the Swarm rule applies, so that they’re easier and faster to play with. Lastly, give us denser battlefields so assault and high maneuverability lists actually have a chance.

  • David Metcalfe

    i wonder what the reason ITC want to keep 1850? and why 1650 was shot down? reading about LVO not many games went to round 5, so really not completing the game. if games on the ground are not finishing to a proper conclusion then you have 2 options, longer game time or smaller size games. personally i think 1500 is about right. it makes list really hard to choose as there is normally something missing from it, i find 1750/1850 list normally have all bases covered.

  • sjap98

    1200pts for me and my buddies..

  • David

    Having just played a tournament two of my games failed to finish both were hoard armies (GC Ork). What took the time was setting up and moving models and in the GC case lots of pregame randomisation. A model cap might be more appropriate every summoning/non hoard list had no problem sure psychic took longer but shooting was quicker.

    Alternatively my local game store has introduced an exterminatus rule
    If the game hasn’t finished when time is called both players lose a lot of pts this encourages people to build lists that they can play at a reasonable pace

  • That’s interesting, I’ve been told repeatedly on here that only a scrub can’t fit everything from greeting to boxing up to leave in under 3 hours.

  • Grand_Master_Raziel

    A couple things that have struck me recently:

    Imperial Guard Orders – adds an entire phase to the game, which is made time consuming because the IG player has to roll for each order. Having played against IG a lot lately, I’m comfortable stating that rolling leadership to make the orders happen feels like a formality – my regular IG opponent fails maybe once a game. If the orders just happen, one from each junior officer, two from each senior officer, it’d speed things up a bit.

    Space Wolf Wulfen frag assault launchers – a shooting attack with D3 shots. Really? It averages out to 2 shots per turn anyway. Why make the player roll a D3 for it? It’s just adding rolling for the sake of rolling.

    That’s just a couple examples, but if one took a fine-tooth comb and went through the main rules all the dexes for all the unnecessary time wasting mechanics, I imagine it’d help a fair little bit.

  • Hopefully the 8th edition stuff will streamline a bit better. Thankfully the days of 5th edition are LONG gone, I don’t ever want to return to the days where you can’t go beyond core six scenarios and never take fliers or super heavies, and GW figured out they couldn’t sell super heavy vehicles while they were “apoc optional” so they integrated them, but they integrated them poorly.

    However some better limitations should definitely be in place. Super heavy vehicles shouldn’t be roaming around in 1000 point games for example. Or wraith knights or things like that.

    I’d like to see a scalable game that goes from killteam level on up. Streamline a lot better.

    • nurglitch

      I don’t think there would be a problem with super-heavies or behemoths if they followed the vehicle damage table or had some sort of progressive deterioration like vehicles and infantry units have.

      • I actually liked that in AOS that monsters get weaker as you damage them so I’d be for that in 40k.

        • nurglitch

          Yeah, given that units of infantry and whatnot get weaker as you damage them, and that regular vehicles do, then having Monstrous, Gargantuan, and Super-heavies units that is a little disconnected.

  • nurglitch

    1650pts combining one Eternal War mission with one Maelstrom of War mission makes for excellent 40k games.

  • Steven S.

    Simple… new ruleset will/should have AoS like warscrolls for each unit. Eliminate all the free stuff for units. Get a yearly released AoS style General’s Handbook for balancing issues once a new Dex drops (You can still drive sales with the new force being better it will just have a shorter reign as a new GHB will be right around the corner). I think that is all that is really needed to speed things up and eliminate all the bloat. And it looks as if it is on the way if all the rumors are true. I for one am excited to get back into the game I love. All my armies have been collecting dust as I wait for a sane ruleset to drop.

  • Shawn

    A real simple solution would be not to play a timed event and just be sure you got plenty of time to play a casual game. However, I know that wouldn’t help those tournament folks out. I’ve played, and sometimes continue to play, timed tournaments and both can take you too long to play. Privateer Press, in addition to using time clocks, have control objectives in each tournament. A player gains points by controlling and/or dominating a major objective. The first player to reach five control/dominating points wins. It allows players to focus not on caster kill but the objectives. It works well with Wamachine/Hordes, but may not work for 40k tourneys, so, perhaps, a similar set up would work.

    Personally, I like larger games. You can bring more toys to the table and the game feels more and more like an all out conflict. I just played in a local tournament that was 1500pts and we still didn’t finish our games. However, the 1500pts did limit the amount of spamming allowed. Also, it helped that all the players were primarily casual players looking for small amount of competitive fun. Strange I know, but at least there were no deathstars, no super-friends, no super-heavies except for 1 knight in a marine list, and not unbearable unit spamming. It was a lot of fun and considering I’m not very good at the competitive level, I still tied for 6th out of twelve people.

  • Kinsman

    What if we just got better rules?

    Still the main issue with 40k……better rules.

  • Admiral Raptor

    This is priceless! Spend hundreds of dollars and hours building a competitive army. Travel possibly hundreds of kilometers to get to the tournament. Have all of your matches end on turn three because the game is a bloated mess.

    How does competitive 40k still exist? Why would anyone put themselves through that?

    • jeff white

      Because money wins… Like poker with a commission painted buy in and u get to field twenty queens if u can afford them. I don’t understand it but some idjits love that sort of thing…

  • Porty1119

    When I stilled played 40K, I only enjoyed games played at or below 1000pts. Anything bigger became unmanageable.

    • jeff white

      On a six by four table?

  • Muninwing

    “Time Clocks – Some type of chess type clock would make things “Fair” but some armies do take longer than others.”

    this would put the nail in the horde coffin…

    but… it would also give smaller elite armies (that are penalized by a few factors currently) a better run if underutilizing the clock could count somehow in your favor.

    maybe a wiggle-room type? that if you qualify as a “horde” then you get a bonus to the clock? if not, you get a speed-chess style of oppositional clock. whoever uses the least time gets a VP.

  • Cameron Barclay

    When I play with my friends we play one does all their movement, the the next player, then back to the first player for the next phase and so on