40K BREAKING: Let’s Talk Movement

Games Workshop spills the beans on some of the changes to the movement phase for Warhammer 40k 8th Edition!

We’ve known for a while that Warhammer 40,000 8th would see a return to units getting a movement stat. Then GW showed us what the unit profiles would look like:

 

Well now, Games Workshop is talking about some of the OTHER big changes for movement:

via Warhammer Community

“In the new edition, every model has its own Movement characteristic…Some units will have a minimum move too – this mostly applies to flyers, who can’t stop.

Running has been rolled into the Movement phase now, too. You can “Advance” when you move by rolling a dice and adding the result to your Movement to go a bit faster at the expense of shooting… This applies to all models – infantry, vehicles, bikes – everyone.”

Falling Back

“If you’re in combat at the start of your turn, you can Fall Back by moving away from the enemy. You’ll lose the ability to advance, shoot or charge that turn, and crucially, enemies will be able to shoot at you! This does, however, open up a vast range of tactical options for armies like the Astra Militarum, who will now be able to effectively deploy in firing lines, with each row falling back from any assaults in good order (if they survived) while the unit behind them fires at the attackers. It goes both ways though – if you have a dedicated assault unit that specializes in killing infantry (like Warp Talons) your opponent will find it much harder to pin them down in combat with heavily armoured units for the entire game.”

Read the full article HERE

Okay, WOW…I did not see that change coming! And honestly, the Fall Back move is another one that makes a ton of sense. I’m now very curious about the timing on this Fall Back move. Will units also break from combat? What about the “Sweeping Advance” and can units be run down?! Is there a way to “catch” units that are trying to flee? So many more questions. Although I’m glad they pointed out its a great way to bypass or avoid units you DON’T want to be tied up with.

Also, I just want to say that combing the run move into the movement phase was pretty smart. I know most folks were doing that anyway – it does impact the flexibility of seeing how things played out in the shooting phase and then opting to run…but you know what, I’m okay with the change for the sake of speeding up the game. I wonder how that will impact Eldar and their Battle Focus…it seems like the more answers we get the more questions I come up with!

 

What do you think of the changes to the movement phase?

  • BaronVonYoloing

    All this sounds exactly as expected to me. It seems to follow the Age of Sigmar model for movement so “retreating” units can’t be shot as they leave combat by the looks of it.

    More interesting to me is movement stats for races that ARE NOT space marines. I’m curious if for example Harlequins now move faster than they do currently? As a Tyranid player how much faster are my units compared to the likes of marines or Guard? Although knowing that I’m betting Genestealers will be the same speed as marines (which sucks. Seriously if they can have a movement of 8 inches I’d really look into taking them again!)

    • Sorien

      They already said Harlequins will be faster than marines, and gaunts even faster than that. Just not by how much.

      • Walter Vining

        where did they say anything about gaunts?

        • Mr.Custodes

          The first article.

          • Walter Vining

            went back to look, yeah just forgot about that. long week. derp.

    • Brian

      Actually, they say, “You’ll lose the ability to advance, shoot or charge that turn, and crucially, enemies will be able to shoot at you!” Not sure if by “enemies” they include the unit you’re retreating from. And it does not appear to include an extra bonus attack against the retreaters if that’s what you meant.

  • Talos2

    This and the small weapons can wound anything seems to give a lot of power to the high troop count armies

    • ZeeLobby

      more models to sell ;D

    • Walter Vining

      they CAN wound anything, but how many of them will actually stick, and how easy will it be to do?

      • Shawn

        Agreed. What GW could have said to allay fears is that “every weapon has a chance to cause wounds, the more powerful the weapon the greater the chance.”

        • Walter Vining

          no they didn’t need to do that, people need not jump to conclusions and over think things before they know how it really works. Sky is falling thinking is the worst thing to happen to this hobby besides the internet.

          • Koonitz

            But… But… It’s entertaining reading about how everyone seems to have their panties in a twist about their Land Raiders being destroyed by lasguns!

          • Walter Vining

            actually I heard that ITC has already ruled that las guns add wounds back to land raiders /snark

          • Koonitz

            Rebuilding with hard light constructs utilizing the light energy from a lasgun’s beam. I approve.

          • Walter Vining

            I’ve heard that they also voted to nerf what ever d has become to deal wounds to the unit firing it

          • Koonitz

            D is the New Plasma. Coming to NBC in the Fall.

    • if it makes more armies more viable I like it

      • ZeeLobby

        I mean gosh, if more armies aren’t viable regardless of what they do, they’ve really failed, lol. Hopefully regardless of core rules, the rebalancing of factions alone makes more armies viable.

        • I really hope so!

          • ZeeLobby

            Yeah, I mean it sounds like they’ve playtested with these rules, so I’m really hoping that’s what it means.

          • Shawn

            Yes, and it wasn’t just the studio. Seems the folks at Frontline Gaming, and the Adepticon and Las Vegas Open all participated in play testing.

    • No-one Special

      Can you tell me where anything can wound anything was confirmed? I can’t find the source.

      • Xodis

        The very first GW announcement before they even gave us stats for anything.

        • No-one Special

          Found it, thanks.

      • Shawn

        The QA video that GW did. It’s on their FB page, and answers a lot of good questions.

    • Remember that Termies got a pretty big buff with 2 wounds. We also still don’t know how the small weapons can wound anything will work. Most (all?) of the horde armies were underpowered anyway, so this doesn’t necessarily mean that high troop counts are going to be the new hotness.

    • Rajak

      Everything has a toughness value and everything has a Save. So yes high troop count can wound things but if you need 6’s to wound and the thing you are shooting at has a 2+ or a 3+ save the likelihood of mowing down a double digit multi wound model in a turn is very very very low.

      • Talos2

        More likely than it is now

        • Karru

          As many have pointed out, yes it is now possible, but the odds are not in your favour, like at all. At best you’ll be seeing massed shooting finish off Monsters that have one or two wounds left. We won’t be seeing Guardsmen Lasgun Volleys taking down multiple Land Raiders in a single turn. You will still need those Heavy Weapons to damage them properly.

        • Koonitz

          Go for it.

          After all, if a bush can kill a Land Raider now, I’m sure it won’t be that dramatically different than Grots can in 8th. I’m amazed at how stuck on this fact so many people are.

          The math was done in regards to lasguns against the released dreadnought statline of T7/3+/8w. An equivalent points value (assuming current point levels) of Guardsmen with only lasguns (20, at 5 points each, compared to a 100 point dread), could not reasonably destroy said dreadnought in the course of a full 7 turn game.

          If you think that’s so worrisome to your sense of balance that it’s worth sticking yourself on, have at ‘er.

          Also, before you ask, bushes can kill Land Raiders, because a failed dangerous terrain check does 25% of its health in damage and permanently immobilizes it, and many Land Raiders can’t even get dozer blades, so that’s 1 in 6 chance of a Land Raider tripping up on a bush, or a shallow stream. If it only has 1 HP left when it tries, kaboom.

          • Talos2

            The maths says a unit of 15 grots won’t kill a unit of termies too, yet I’ve seen it happen many times too. People get too hung up on math hammer, dice gods know no maths

          • Koonitz

            Indeed, but balance isn’t based on a grot power slamming a Terminator. Otherwise, they’d be a hell of a lot more expensive.

  • Luca Lacchini

    This sounds more a game changer than the loss of templates (which still does not win me over).
    Already highly mobile armies – I’m thinking my DE or my suits-heavy Tau force – will have to reconsider a whole lot of tactics, whether they attack in melee or just reposition themselves.

    I like the idea of a more mobile WH40K instead of a rolling gunline/flank/whatever.

    • Walter Vining

      heavy suit tau isn’t really all that mobile. they are more mobile than marines on foot yes, but bikes from ANYONE are faster than them.

      • Luca Lacchini

        They sure are more mobile than my Catachans! ;-D

        • Walter Vining

          hell, servo skulls are more mobile than catachans lol

      • Sorien

        Actually they are theoretically the same 24″ max movement.

        Bikes are 12+12″
        Suits are 6+d6+2d6

        • Walter Vining

          so 17″ is the same as a promised 24? 17 using the averages rounding up. bikes are marketable faster than suits. trust me, being a suit player, and playing against bikes suits cannot get away.

        • ZeeLobby

          Man, those suits need another d6 in there. Not nearly random enough!

          • euansmith

            D6D6″ movement

        • Walter Vining

          Theoretical movement doesn’t matter, bikes have a guaranteed 24″ move while suits have an average of 17. As a suit player I cannot out run bikes.

  • ZeeLobby

    Really interested to see what charging is like. I’m mean I’m going to assume it’s random, especially if running is random, which is unfortunate, but I’m still curious.

    • Nugget7211

      I reckon charging will be something like movement plus d6, but that is literally just a hunch

      • Xodis

        Based on AoS…
        running = 1d6
        Charging = 2d6

        Special rules can alter these.

        • Fergie0044

          Dang. Was hoping for a less random charge mechanism. Movement plus D6 would have been the happy middle ground for me.
          I mean it seems silly if slow units like terminators could still charge up to 12″!

          • Xodis

            I agree, just like its weird that Guilliman can move 8 easily but might only charge 2 lol

          • ZeeLobby

            I’d say at least once ever 2/3 games I’ve played recently in 40K now someone charges what should be an easy charge and fails. You can’t help but feel bad for them, haha.

          • Calgar

            Just yesterday we had some skitarii fail 2 charges in a row of 6 inches and 4 inches. Then my Imperial Guard commander needed a 12 to charge and made it.

          • ZeeLobby

            Haha. Yeah. I mean on one hand it’s funny, and creates a crazy-funtastic-randomized-game. But on the other it’s just really disappointing. Especially when the result is your army being gunned down in the open.

          • Tristan Smith

            He forgot to tie his loafer, had to stop.

          • ZeeLobby

            Bobby-G!

          • kloosterboer

            And let me tell you, it happens (in AOS). Oops, I tripped over a body. Or a blade of grass.

            The vagaries of war.

          • Xodis

            Yeah my Bloodbound have suffered because of it. Really made me start focusing on slapping all those bonuses to charge movement in there.

          • ZeeLobby

            “Well, I’ve spent half our armies resources to buy everyone Khorne Cleats. And yes Barnabloodess… I made sure they were extra spikey…”

          • Koonitz

            You may not like Movement + d6″ when you see hormagaunts moving 9-10″, or jump pack infantry (and super-heavy walkers) keeping their 12″ move.

            I mean, sure, a guaranteed 13, potential 18″ charge is fine and all….

            No, wait. No it isn’t.

          • Fergie0044

            Good point. Maybe just have a stated charge range for each unit then just like movement? i.e. marines move 6″ and charge 8″. gaunts move 8″ and charge 10″ etc etc

        • ZeeLobby

          yeah. I’d rather have:
          M stat = 6
          movement : 6
          running : 6 + d6
          charging: 6 + d6

          2d6 charges are such a bummer…

          • Tristan Smith

            Yeah, I like the sound of that mechanic better than 2d6 charges. Even the spread a bit, and have the charge linked to how fast the unit moves? Elegant imho.

          • ZeeLobby

            Yeah. You hit it on the head. Just lacks elegance. But GW hasn’t ever been exactly known for it’s elegant rules writing.

          • Tristan Smith

            A man can DREAM. 😛

          • ZeeLobby

            Haha, maybe in Commissar’s Journal 2.

            Who knows though, maybe their holding it back as a huge announcement.

          • Djbz

            Maybe 2d6 but with a minimum of the unit’s M value would be alright. (Especially if running+ charging is allowed)

          • ZeeLobby

            Yeah. That wouldn’t be horrible. It’s really the undershooting I have issues with.

          • Djbz

            Yeah. I only ever roll a 12 when I’m 2″ away.
            If I’m 3″ away I roll snake eyes with alarming regularity.

          • ZeeLobby

            LoL. Yeah. It’s rough. My friend landed a daemon prince in preparation to charge the next turn. Managed to survive the first round of shooting from the unit, then rolled a 2 to charge, but he was 3 away, and took another round of shooting to the face. No one wants to win like that.

          • Xodis

            What if you got the option? charge your normal movement stat or risk 2d12? I would like that.

          • ZeeLobby

            LoL. Pace your charge, or try extra hard and possibly trip? I dunno. Like maybe for IG, but it’s just always silly for me when a hardened unit surrounded by a galaxy at war, all trip on the step in front of them.

          • Xodis

            Risk/Reward lol

          • ZeeLobby

            I mean it would be funny, but just as sad when it fails. I’d take it over the flat 2D6 for sure though.

          • Xodis

            More likely that the ground gave way due to all the heavy armor and all the impact from Exterminatus or other heavy weaponries on the other side of the world jolted them off their feet at the worst possible time, but yeah its kind of a stretch, makes good game sense though.

          • Stealthbadger

            correct me if I’m wrong but wouldn’t that mean something with a 6″ movement could theoretically move, run then charge a total of 30″?

            Forrest Gump marines don’t stop in no endzone.

            Obviously this assumes move, run and charge is legal.

          • ZeeLobby

            Ah, I was operating under the assumption that you couldn’t run and charge.

            I mean personally i’d throw all the d6 out the window. I’d love it if it was:
            M stat = 6
            movement: 6
            running: 6 + 3 (flat run modifier)
            charge: 2xM = 12

            Then you’d know your positioning, and be able to play tactically. But I’d take anything over the 2d6 charge, just way too varied an outcome.

          • Stealthbadger

            Ha, it would be funny if you had to move the exact distance you rolled, “That Bobby G can sure run, but man is he an idiot” as he charges past his target.

            I like your version, initially I thought run and charge should both be fixed at 2 x M but this might be a little too fast for zippier units..

          • ZeeLobby

            Yeah. I mean I dunno. I understand GW loves it’s randomness, but I’m a big fan of knowing what my opponent has at his disposal on his turn, and being able to plan accordingly on mine. The more random numbers you throw into the mix, the more it just becomes luck rather than skill.

            Then imagine they throw the chance for double turns on top, like in AoS, and suddenly you just multiplied all of that randomness by 2. It’s no shock factions look balanced at that point, haha.

          • Stealthbadger

            Let’s see if they go that far. I think they won’t remember they seem to have tested this version…

            I’m surprised more aren’t focused on the whole nipping out of combat thing. Ah Mr. Bloodthirster, see I have this thing, awkward really, but really must dash. Ta ta.

          • ZeeLobby

            I mean my friends really disappointed, primarily being a nurgle player, and depending on tying up things in combat. I mean hopefully those units get special rules to do so, otherwise I just see our groups shooty armies backing up, and blowing them away. Or god forbid, double-turning and just repeatedly shaving off the front rank.

          • Stealthbadger

            Yeah this is definitely on my, ‘see how it plays out’ list.

            Hurrah, we finally found a new rule I’m not 100% in favour for!

          • ZeeLobby

            Yeah. I mean so far I don’t think the 2d6 charge or double turns are a given. Just based on everything else they’ve brought over from AoS, I have a feeling we will be. Now I mean they might have accommodated for ALL of this in the unit special rules, but I’d probably die of shock if they did, lol.

            Haha, and I knew there might be one. I mean there was a lot of core stuff I still really liked about 40K. So far most of the new editions stuff are at least neutral slides, and mostly good. So the occasional 1/2 bad things will most likely find their way through as well. That said, I’m not sweating it.

            I probably won’t play it as a main game if it’s 2d6 and double turns. But I’d occasionally slot it in my rotation with other systems. If it’s a consistent charge and normal turns, it’ll be high up on my list.

          • Kyle

            I assume with the increased ease in making it into chop chop range and revised leadership system that assault might not hinge so heavily on getting tied in. The old system really punished overkill units hard. Like Bloodcrushers which have a host of issues outside anyway. If and when you got to charge with them they would typically just murder entire units off the board even with mediocre dice rolls. Then they get shot in the face again, maybe even counter charged by chaff or by something with a 2+ save that was assured to kill them all since they couldn’t leave combat. Now maybe you can murder a unit and sweep into another one. Forcing to it to lose a turn to disengage or stand and fight. That’s my hope anyway. That’s all wild supposition though.

          • Stealthbadger

            Hmm not so sure the situation isn’t worse for them as everything sort of has free hit and run unless there’s a test of some sort.

            Unless of course when you disengage your opponent gets a free attempt to charge you or something else, even if he has to spend a CP to do it. Now that would make for some interesting tactical decisions.

          • Xodis

            I think the luck thing will only fall on the less assaulty units though. I can’t see Assault Marines or their equivalents not having abilities to mitigate if not completely bypass any movement/charge restrictions.

          • Stealthbadger

            I really hope they don’t. Its when GW start handing out too many snow flake rules things get janky, unless there some sort of ‘Assault’ keyword whereby all armies dedicated assault units benefit from it due to CC training or something.

            It’s not just ATSKNF, I’m glad they changed the bolter too. Turn one for guard/ork/DE was literally just picking up models for them. It isn’t fun to wipe out half a guy’s army turn one or be wiped out.

          • ZeeLobby

            Well get ready, every unit in AoS has a snowflake rule, haha.

            Agreed about bolters and ATSKNF. Glad they’re finally fixed.

          • Stealthbadger

            Don’t get me wrong, if they limit them to one or two per army then it’s not so hard to reign it in over one rule and also achieve some sort of balance.

            Seriously though, If I see Tau getting two shooting turns or free units even I will be unable to defend it.

            By the way, not the same thread I know but back to our discussion on assault order. Wasn’t there something about using command points to interrupt the flow of combat? Maybe a player can choose to spend a point to go first even if you charged? This would strike me as not to imbalanced a rule whilst forcing you to make choices with limited resources (command points).

            In subsequent rounds though, if you’ve not run I think it might be like SW:A where you all hit at the same time sort of thing.

          • ZeeLobby

            Hmm. That would be a cool mechanic. I’m all for having a resource that you can use to mitigate al the random possibilities of the game. I’m not sure I’ve hard of that though? Is it an AoS thing?

          • Stealthbadger

            I think it was gently hinted at in the first live video? I’ve definitely got it in my head the command points do that kind of thing. It would be good without being OP and it would be universal to all armies. It is also good enough to make you want to generate CP but also not crippling to be without it.

          • ZeeLobby

            Yeah. I could see that being a strong tactical mechanic, and it would be an elegant solution to some of the less than elegant rules. As long as you don’t generate command points by rolling a D6, lol.

          • Stealthbadger

            I guess we’ll see, they were going to release the page with the FOC on they briefly showed at some point. Maybe that will be our Friday treat, it was quite funny they knew we’d be furiously trying to screen grab it, i think they used a version that was already blurry just to lolololtroll. 🙂 CP could also be used for re-rolls e.g. re-roll a charge maybe.

          • Xodis

            No those were said to be set by whichever FOC you used. So if you took an Iron Warriors FOC with lots of Heavies, you get less points than the SM player with the regular FOC

          • ZeeLobby

            OK. that’s good.

          • Stealthbadger

            i think they said if you just take HQ and 2 troops its no CP (punishes the multiple ally builds) Wheres other that generate more are ‘hard to fill out’ meaning you need plenty for each slot so no min maxing i guess?

          • Xodis

            Yeah, Im sure they have something in there to mitigate all of that, but we only have rumors and speculations so far. Sounds like it would make sense though.

          • Stealthbadger

            I think that was definitely something they said, cmon, one of us nerds must have recorded the broadcast!?!?

          • Xodis

            Not I, sorry, I tend to stick with the cliffnotes lol

          • Xodis

            Well we have to take into account Jump Packs, probably the Mark of Khorne (if berserkers suck than all melee sucks lol), Bikes, etc… so snowflake rules have to exist to some degree.

          • Stealthbadger

            True, as I’ve said below, as long as they don’t go nuts. My biggest concern is not that 8th is poor but that we get something great that overtime degrades again due to over eagerness for the writers chosen faction. Hopefully though if continued input from the circuit scene is on the cards this will be mitigated.

          • ZeeLobby

            Yeah, my concern with yearly updates is that by the end of the year that years releases are just killing it before the reset button. In our modern day I’d really love a living ruleset that’s updated throughout the year. I feel like GW could do it too.

          • Xodis

            I think they have done that with a couple wild out-of-control things in AoS, but I never ran into them so I could be wrong.

          • Stealthbadger

            How is AoS looking for balance generally, I thought it was quite good but heard Fyre slayers were rubbish?

          • Xodis

            By themselves they seem a little “glass Cannon”ish, but allied they are pretty awesome. The only problem with AoS IMO, is the favoritism for Stormcast as they now have everything, while other armies still need some front line soldiers or better ranged, etc..

            The rules themselves are balanced, but you cant really make an all comers list with each army without allies, unless you play Stormcast.

          • Stealthbadger

            Ah, the old Space Marine conundrum.

            So unit availability aside, which they can fix with releases, this bodes well that they CAN make a reasonably balanced game. This bodes well!

          • ZeeLobby

            Yeah, I mean since the last GH the biggest release has really just been the Kharadrons right? I guess we don’t have enough data points to know if they were released with decent balance built in, or whether they’re broken and soon to hopefully be fixed by the community in GH2.

          • Xodis

            Kharadons and the Stormcast on chocobos. The Chocobo calvary seem to be pretty decent and not OP though.

          • Kyle

            I like it. As someone whose dice hate him I want to minimize extra rolling wherever I can lol.

          • ZeeLobby

            Haha, and well, this game already had a TON of rolling. I mean you basically roll for everything at this point. I just think it’s fair that if gun ranges have a static shooting range, then movement should be static as well. I feel like it’d help reduce the gap in power between CC and shooting. At least a CC army would KNOW how much shooting it might have to take before getting somewhere. Right now you’re just hoping you roll well, haha.

          • Ryan Miller

            Should be more like (for marines) m= 6, run= m*2, charge=m*2-difficult/dangerious terain+bonuses (move through cover etc)

  • Xodis

    I still think Terminators should be slower, maybe 4 inches max. Not sure a Dreadnought should be the same speed as a line soldier either….I’ll wait and see before complaining though.

    Side note: The Movement stat could be a great way to separate different types of Terminator and Power armor. There has to be some more mobile versions out there or some slower and more heavily armored ones as well.

    • Deathwing

      You may find this to be the base standard terminator. Catapheractii terminators will probobly be movement 4. Likewise tartaros may end up being movement 6

      • Xodis

        I might be ok with that, not sure Tartaros Terminators should be the same speed as Power Armor wearers though lol

    • Karru

      Something to note here. Remember that the Dreadnought is a monster now. They need to have that “extra” movement in order to manoeuvre before they start losing it due to wounds. Imagine how bad a Dreadnought would be if it had 4-5″ of movement and then after a couple of wounds dropped to 3″. That thing doesn’t get anywhere at that point, even if you run it every turn.

      • AircoolUK

        We don’t really know what the baseline Move value is of yet. I would have guess 4″ like it used to be, but who knows?

        This may hold for a standard human (which used to be the baseline to which other units were compared, that may have changed to Space Marines) as Space Marines are bigger than standard humans, faster than standard humans, as well as being tougher, stronger etc….

        As Power Armour allows a Marine to move unencumbered, it could be argued that a 6″ Move makes sense. After all, in a flat sprint (or marathon), a Marine will leave a human for dust.

        The Dreadnought is another case where you could come up with a feasible argument for it’s Move. Again, whilst appearing slow and lumbering, it does have legs that are a couple of metres in length, so they’ve got a pretty long stride…

        …or roller skates. Just conjecture.

        • Karru

          I’d guess that 6″ will be the baseline and from there it increases and decreases by 1-2″ for Infantry units.

      • Xodis

        That’s a good point but I was thinking dreadnoughts should actually be faster for all your reasons and hydrolic Powered legs or better

    • AircoolUK

      Move is just another tool they can now use to balance units. As I’ve mentioned previously, what was Initiative is now tied into the Move stat because the faster your units can move, the sooner they can charge and therefore get the first attack in melee as opposed to going by initiative.

      I thought that Terminators would be 4″, but perhaps they’re bumped up to 5″ due to their above average former Initiative stat. Whilst they appear slow and lumbering, they are in fact large models wearing powered armour (not Power Armour) which means they can move unencumbered.

      Terminators are primarily close combat units, so they still need to be able to move fast.

      We don’t know what the charge rules are as of yet, but I see there’s a lot of speculation – perhaps 2D6 but use your normal Move value if your roll is less than that value?

      Whatever system they have come up with for charging, the important thing about the Move stat is that it is now another factor in balance. Some units will get a high Move stat so they can engage in close combat quicker, whilst others will get a high Move stat so they can dash from cover to cover or make fast flanking (or retreating) manoeuvres.

      I’m pretty sure we’ll see units that are similarly armoured, but with differing Move stats. It’s kinda obvious (but not confirmed) that an Eldar with a 4+ Save is still going to move a lot faster than a Tau with a 4+ Save…

  • Heinz Fiction

    So gone are the times were I would charge, hoping to win the combat but not by much, so the target unit wouldn’t break in my turn? Thank God!

    • Tristan Smith

      That did always seem odd didn’t it?

      “Okay Serg, you charge those guys and kill em good, but not too good okay? Great.”

      • Heinz Fiction

        Odd indeed. I never really liked the concept that the melee is the safest place on the battlefield, at least during the enemy turn.

    • SIA

      Yeah now are the days when after you charge at the start of their turn they back up and have other units shoot you to pieces with you unable to do anything about it as far as we know right now

      • Pete Croucher

        Isn’t it lucky that “as far as we know right now” is basically nothing?

        • SIA

          Well they did say that is a viable strategy so the only things we don’t know is if it risks a sweeping advance, or if the unit not retreating gets free attacks or something like a reverse overwatch.

      • Heinz Fiction

        Which is the lesser evil as it can be easily compensated by other benefits, point discounts and so on, whereas the former is a major flaw in the foundation of the core rules.

      • Koonitz

        It’s a tactic called bait and switch. Baiting an enemy unit out of position, or into an ambush, breaking ranks and fleeing, while the ambush elements destroy the exposed enemy.

        It’s an INCREDIBLY COMMON AND EFFECTIVE tactic, used throughout human history (The Tau call it Kauyon, to give you a contextual example).

  • Tristan Smith

    If there’s some sort of mechanic to punish the guys running from combat, then I really like these changes.

    Ow, that hurt my brain, I’m not supposed to like 8th edition. lol

    • kloosterboer

      ” ..they lose the ability to advance, shoot or charge that turn.”

      Basically, the unit spends all its effort disengaging from the melee, and can do nothing else.

      • Tristan Smith

        I meant some sort of damage mechanic, you don’t just walk away from a guy trying to kill you with a sword without being punished for it.

        • Xodis

          In the facebook comments they alluded to there being something like that. Mentioning they will be getting to combat rules shortly, and you would have to survive in order to try it

          • Tristan Smith

            Well, then this sounds really cool. Finally a change I like!

          • Stealthbadger

            I have to say I HATED sweeping advance though.

            Oh bad luck you lost by one guardsman, oh and look they failed leadership, oh and now all the remaining 37 are dead too.

            fun times.

        • Matt Razincka

          Depending on how far they run, it could set them up for another charge next turn…and charges strike first.

      • Heinz Fiction

        Not beeing able to act is not really a punishment compared to getting killed…

        However i’m fine with it, as it encourages the attacker to hit them as hard as possible compared to bind them in cc as long as possible.

  • 40KstillRulesTheTT

    Gone will be battlefocus, this will not be an Eldar friendly version, they had their time ! They can now spend some time on the shelf, it will do them good ! Wraithknights and Scatterbikes need the rest anyway. Tyranids in, Eldar out !

  • Stealthbadger

    But can you move, run and then charge? this is the question the orks all want to know…

    • SprinkKnoT

      I’d guess no, but I wouldn’t be surprised if they got some rules like AoS Orks that basically give them that ability.

      • Stealthbadger

        Oh Boyz, if this is true… Finally you can chop da humies just like you always wanted!

        • Karru

          It highly likely that they will keep the Ork WAAAGH!! rule or something very similar. Maybe give all Ork units near the Warboss “Fleet” of old. Run and Charge in the same turn.

        • AircoolUK

          Maybe you’ll be able to bring a huge drum for one to bang on, then get a bonus 2″ to your charge.

    • euansmith

      Some AoS Orkz (Aeiourcs?) get an extra D6 move in their Hero Phase off their Warlord.

  • SprinkKnoT

    I think this is gonna be an awesome change, prevents tarpitting and is a really elegant way to make it so you don’t need shooting into combat. “Sure you can shoot at that unit in combat, but you have give up the turn for the unit that got charged”.

  • uatu13

    More and more this is just Sigmar in Space. While I like Sigmar, I really don’t want 40K to be the same thing, so this isn’t very good news.

    • SprinkKnoT

      So far they’ve only taken the good things of AoS and have implemented more stuff on top of it like S vs T and transports.

    • Brian Griffith

      I don’t think you should reject a good mechanic just because of where it came from. The games are still different enough.

      • uatu13

        I just think rather than copying AOS over to a future setting, it would be much more interesting to have a different game though. Granted we don’t know everything about this new edition, so it’s impossible to say how different they are from one another, but almost every news leak is just more AOS in 40K.

        • Karru

          As someone who doesn’t really like AoS and was heavily against any “major” changes that would turn 40k into AoS, I’d like to give you some things to consider here that might help you adjust to these changes.

          First of all, the fact that S v T stays is huge. This makes the interaction between armies bigger than it is in AoS.

          Secondly, many of the things that are being ported from AoS to 40k are there to speed up the game a bit more. Things like the removal of templates for example.

          Thirdly, considering all of this as a necessary sacrifice is helpful. It is confirmed that 40k will not turn completely into AoS in the next edition. 7th edition is massive mess that needs to be sorted. The best way to do that is making it a clean-slate. The world remains, but the rules are changed. A hard reboot is effective in many cases that are similar to current state of 40k.

          Finally, think of this as a new experience. Pre-8th edition 40k will still exist and if you find like minded individuals to play with you, then you lose nothing with this. Instead, you will gain something. A new game to play which might be exactly what one has been looking for since 7th was released.

          This is my take on the situation. The more information is given to us, more excited I’m getting about the game. While I too feel sad to see old 40k go, it might be for the best.

          ps.

          Also, as I was finishing this, I remembered something. You should consider this as a “new age” in Warhammer history. Before AoS came, we had 40k and WHFB. Both of those systems were extremely similar but had certain key features that made them unique. 40k had Vehicles and “free unit movement”, FB had Ranked Combat and Magic. This might be what we are about to see happen as well. 40k and AoS might be extremely similar, but both will have their own unique features to separate them.

  • Nyyppä

    Ok, so, this is the first thing they messed up. There will be no melee in this game. Just gun lines. Boring.

    Other than that this can still be good.

    • Brian Griffith

      I think you’re misreading. You still have to survive some melee before you can fall back. If you’re lousy at melee, it’s better to fall back. If you’re Khorne Berserkers, you smile like it’s your birthday.

      • Nyyppä

        So what? The meat shield takes the hits, falls back and the gunline kills the attackers. Having melee units is just a stupid idea with this rule unless they are otherwise the gods of this edition.

        • Brian Griffith

          So you bring up other units so the gunline has to make some hard choices. That’s a fairly tactical situation.

          It never did make all that much narrative sense to want to make close combat last as long as possible. It slowed the game down, and wasn’t terribly exciting.

          • Nyyppä

            Unless the melee units are really, really cheap that will never be possible to bring 2-3 hard hitters to hunt on tank or similar.

            I agree with the narrative part, but it’s a game. It’s supposed to be reasonably fair for bot players by default.

          • Koonitz

            And people continue to forget that this edition has been heavily playtested by both GW and by members of the major US tournament organization circuit (note, not players, the organizers). Something GW has been accused of failing at, before. Now they’re ACTUALLY doing it.

            If you are immediately throwing things out before even knowing more than 10% of the ruleset, without trusting in their ability to produce a well-thought out rule-set, this part included, then perhaps you should leave for ‘greener pastures’. 8th will be here when it’s released and you want to come back and give it a try.

          • Nyyppä

            We are talking about people who could not kill the deathstars from their games even though some of them openly admitted that they are bad for the game. It’s not really comforting that they are on this thing. Hell, I could have comped all that bs out of the game with just 3 short house rules. One IC per unit max, no invisibility, no rerollable invuln or cover saves. Done. MSU is gone just by adding KP to each mission. Want to make psychics fair? Cap the WC at 10. It’s not hard…

            Anyway, I stopped playing 7th few months ago when GW openly refused to fix CSM while they kept adding more broken things to imperials (and eldar?). I’m interested in this because it’s a new start. Before this one thing I was pretty damn stoked about it too. The ability to just leave combat however kills the melee armies from the game unless there’s something hugely unfair advantages included in the units themselves. That would however make the game just one sided in a different way so….yeah….I hope there’s something they are not telling us that changes this but as it is it’s not playable.

          • Koonitz

            8th will be waiting for you if you decide to return and give it a try.

          • Nyyppä

            Does not seem likely. It’s AoS in 40k skin, which stops working the second regular movement and shooting is done.

        • AircoolUK

          That’s a bit short sighted considering that we don’t have the melee rules yet, let alone the charge mechanic.

          There are two types of melee units – fast units that want to close, charge and melee, and slower defensive melee units that often already sacrifice the first hit in exchange for survivability and being able to hit hard in return.

          As for Bait and Switch, it’s kinda your fault if you fall for it, but if you’re also attacking with a strong melee unit, then the enemy are still going to take a lot of casualties even if they do fall back using defence in depth tactics.

          If you’ve got that one dimensional mindset, then the current 40K rules aren’t fit for purpose.

          • Nyyppä

            I would not call 0-10 guardsmen “a lot of casualties” but that’s what it is at most.

            If you can’t fathom a situation in which a faction has no access to no scatter DS after which one can charge it’s not really my fault.

  • Rajak

    I wonder if Hit and Run will still be a thing. Or if it is still a thing if it just improves your ability to fall back.

    • Iron Star

      I think we might see these unitd being able to take pop-shots, or 1 last nut-punch as they fall-back. Possibly there will be units with rules that counter play fallback, and Hit and Run will negate those rules.

    • Brian Griffith

      Well, it’s not a thing in the sense that USRs seem to be going away in favor of just printing relevant rules on datasheets. I could see an equivalent rule on some sheets that actually lets you do something after falling back.

    • Simon Bates

      In AoS there are specific units (eg Skaven clanrats) that can flee and then run, shoot or charge. Hit and Run almost certainly won’t be a single shared rule, but there will probably be similar variations for particular units which can justify it.

  • Marios Kontopyrgos

    So what happens to invulnerable save?

    • Red_Five_Standing_By

      Who knows. Probably still there.

      • Marios Kontopyrgos

        Hopefully. Especially if weapons can now modify the armor save.

    • Koonitz

      ¯_(ツ)_/¯

    • Simon Bates

      Unmodifiable saves (later called Invulnerable in 40k and Ward in WHFB) have been around since at least 2nd ed 40k and 5th ed WHFB. There is no specific ward save rule in AoS, but various units can take a special save either against mortal wounds or all wounds.

  • Randy Randalman

    All. Better. Things.

    • Strategery.

      you mean you weren’t lumping your running into movement at the beginning on 6th edition? what a pleb

      /s

  • AircoolUK

    Presumably, after falling back, if one of your models is still within ‘Pile In’ range of the enemy, then they’re still going to get engaged in melee after falling back. Although presumably you’ll have tried to get as many of your falling back models out of ‘Pile In’ range to lessen casualties if the enemy do pile in.

    • Silas7

      To me it makes sense that if a model didn’t manage to move out of ‘pile-in’ range that those models be removed as casualties, being cut down as they tried to escape.

    • ikari_kun2002

      Why do you assume units will still ‘Pile In’? Initiative is gone.

      • Koonitz

        Because Initiative is gone in AoS and they still pile in. It’s alternating activation where, when you activate your chosen unit, you pile in with them and attack.

        • ikari_kun2002

          Ah, fair enough. I’m an 8th-edition holdout.
          Still, I expect there will be no particular effect, other than forfeiting your ability to act and almost certainly being in charge range in your opponent’s turn.
          Which in my view is enough.

  • ikari_kun2002

    I personally think it makes sense for things done in lieu of shooting to be done in the shooting phase. Oh well.
    More generally, why does the author assume Eldar will still have Battle Focus? They had it for less than one edition, I believe.

    • Matthew Pomeroy

      Yeah that seems more intuitive to me as well.

    • Simon Bates

      2 editions. But yeah, given they can now have higher movement stat and individual unit rules, there’s little reason to expect them to have a single shared rule across all of their units. I’d expect maybe Avengers to get something like it though.

      • ikari_kun2002

        I stand corrected.