40K: 8th Edition Tactical Reserves Teaser

Games Workshop is back with another rules teaser for 8th and this time it’s all about getting those Tactical Reserves involved!

8th Edition is coming with some revamped rules. Unit’s will now have all their relevant rules printed on their sheets or in their respective publication and players won’t need to reference a USR section for how things work. That means rules like Deepstrike or Outflank aren’t going to be in the “core” rulebook anymore – but don’t worry those things aren’t going away, things are just shifting around a bit:

via Warhammer Community

“There are some pretty fundamental changes to how [Tactical Reserves] work though. For a start, not every unit can be placed in reserve, so most of your army will usually deploy on the battlefield at the start of the game.

Quite a few units still have the option to join the game mid-battle though, and they use a variety of mystical or technological means to do so. While there are no longer universal special rules like Deep Strike or Outflank, many of these abilities will have common themes – so you can still expect units like Terminators to teleport down, Genestealer Cults units to ambush and Ork Kommandos to use their kunnin’ to sneak up on the foe.”

Read the Full Article HERE

As example of these unit deployment options, Games Workshop showed off the new Subterranean Assault rules for the Trygon (which also happens to be the first teaser for Tyranids so far).

Finally! The Trygon and his tunnel ability will allow a unit to join it on the battlefield on the same turn it pops-up! As a ‘Nid player with 3 Trygons, I’m pretty happy about this. Oh and in case you’re wondering about getting to charge on the turn it comes in…

“So we can see that this will be quite a powerful ability. Not only delivering the Trygon into the heart of the enemy force, but also an accompanying unit of Tyranids. And there’s nothing stopping them from charging this turn either! Though that 9″ distance to the enemy (which is common to a lot of units with similar abilities) will mean that the averages on the dice will be against you for that 2D6 charge distance. (You can always use your Command Re-roll of course…)”

Sweet! I’ll take those odds especially with a re-roll…

In matched play, things are a little more detailed and there are couple other restrictions folks should be aware of:

“This rule helps limit some of the more extreme cases of withholding reserves in competitive games.”

Interesting stuff! This Tactical Reserves rule does help cut down on some of those late game Objective Grabbers hiding off-board all game and I’m all for that. What I am curious about is how this interacts with those Reserves coming on to the board. From the Trygon rule above, it sounds like the owning player can just choose to deploy them at the end of any movement phases.

If that’s the case for all the different types of reserves (like Teleporting Deathwing, Ambushing Genestealer Cult, or sneaky Ork Kommandos) – then that’s pretty darn powerful. That also explains the hefty penalty for NOT deploying them by the third battle round…

What do you think of these new Tactical Reserve rules? Are you excited about the changes for Match Play? Let us know in the comments below!

  • Farseerer

    Interesting changes. I wonder what the drop pod rules will be and if they will supersede the 50% of your force must be deployed rule. Obviously this is without knowing the full picture but it does seem like drop pods got a nerf here.
    While fluffy, it never felt like a great mechanic that null deploy lists that went 2nd led to your opponent having a whole turn to twiddle their thumbs/claws/fishhands before you came in and alpha striked them.
    Looks like not having a unit arrive until turn 4 because your opponent has good reserve manipulation is also gone.

    • gordonshumway

      I feel like the fact that reserves are (seemingly) now guaranteed drop pods are indeed going to be subject to these rules, and as such getting a nerf. Honestly they were really the only unit that truly abused reserves in 7th anyway. All while (usually) being free.

      • Farseerer

        I agree, even when you paid the 35 points, it always seemed cheap considering the board control it gave you.

        I am very curious how pods will work this edition. Half your army deployed and the other half arriving turn 1 in pods will be potentially still very powerful

        • Malisteen

          Remember that the pod and the unit in the pod are two separate units. If there’s a character with them, that’s yet a third unit. To have a character and retinue arrive on the table by drop pod, you’ll have to deploy not one but *three* units the regular way in matched play.

          Though, again, a character and retinue in a rhino would also count as three units.

          • Corvak

            Also pods arent free anymore (for demi-companies) so theres an argument for walking onto the field instead of dropping if you need the points. And new vehicle rules mean other transports might be more useful.

        • OldHat

          Well, it isn’t board control as much. It definitely is a force multiplier, but more mobile armies can just move away and force the now-footslogging army to try to keep up. So it had inherent balance in it. I will miss full Pod armies, as they were thematic, but I guess if you want thematic you just play narrative games, nor matched play, so it is still essentially doable.

          • Randy Randalman

            There was absolutely not a balance to it. Armies that didn’t have good reserve options couldn’t deploy aggressively or the drop pod army just plopped in behind them without risk. If an army without good reserve options deployed safely or conservatively, the drop pod army sat on all the objectives early and then you had to try to kill three units to move them off of the objective. Orks, Tyranids, Dark Eldar, and AM were largely SOL against a null deploy list.

          • Karru

            Actually, there was very little balance to Drop Pods overall. If you took an army of Drop Pods, you would win the game almost purely because of them. A smart player would maximise their Troop Pods as now those things also had Objective Secured in a CAD. Then you had people dropping Sternguard Death Squads right next to all the important units/models and nuke them without any problems, because Drop Pods never mishap if you are not a complete idiot.

            The biggest unbalance from them was the way they could “cheat” with reserves. Half of them came in on turn one. Again, something that could be abused as a Single Drop Pod would come in on turn 1 automatically. Enemy couldn’t do anything against those units before they came in and did their damage. Overall, they were extremely unbalanced for a 35pts thing. As I mentioned earlier, add to that the little fact that if it was a Troop Transport, it was an AV12 all around Objective Secured block of metal that could hold an objective, because 7th edition.

          • OldHat

            And that all sounds anecdotal. I have seen the opposite in my time gaming. In the end, GW and the playtesters decided what was balanced and we got to play within those constraints or opt for a non-Matched game option.

      • Bradley Macduff

        farsight bomb says hi

        • Farseerer

          We’ll see how good the Farsight bomb is this edition now that characters can’t join units

          • Severius_Tolluck

            As far as we can tell they can still share a ride… Can hide behind a unit within proximity, and then lastly they will still buff units within proximity. Just can not be part of a unit.

          • Graham Bartram

            This is most likely a nerf as to get all of your models in all of the bubbles will probably prove rather tricky, if it’s even possible. We shall see soon enough.

          • Severius_Tolluck

            Yep. However in AOS it improved some instances and proved better than just giving the unit it joins rules! Meaning it may be actually scarier. Depending on the unit though. Will have to see as you say.

      • Vachones

        Plenty of armies used (and abused depending on your perspective) reserves in 7th. Ever watch two Eldar players play a game of reserve chicken? Yeah, its boring, but it does help to keep fragile units alive.

        If half your army needs to be on the table, this means that terrain, especially LOS blocking terrain, will be even more important. That and bubble wrapping or layering units.

      • Marco Marantz

        Aye and the most egregious aspect of drop pods was objective secured…and clever players could use them as instant/deployable LOS blockers/obstructions.

    • Muninwing

      if “unit” means something that takes up a FOC slot, and transports do not count, i could see that being a little more forgiving.

      because otherwise, each occupied droppod used means TWO units that need to be deployed on-table…

      • Xodis

        On the “Battle Forged” teaser we saw that Dedicated Transports were their own separate section and not really connected to the actual FOC, so I think that will be the case. The groundwork is already set up for it anyways.

    • Valourousheart

      I think is actually 2 turns. Reserves don’t come in until turn 2, and if you were going second that would be the bottom of turn 2. Don’t knock the advantages and disadvantages this gives both sides.

      The first player gets scout/infiltrate, and 2 uncontested movement/running turns to secure the board and objectives. That is one hell of an advantage.

      I faced off against an all infantry ork list, as many boots as he could fit into a 2500 point game. By the time my first units were available at the bottom of 2, I couldn’t place any units on his half of the table. The units that showed up turn 3 had to deal with the fact that my opponent had a solid foothold on my side of the board.

      In another game employing the same tactic, I had the last movement phase and I robbed them of 2 shooting and CC phases. That meant my fast units were still around and I could bee-line to all of the objectives to capture or contest them.

      In both situation instead of having 5-7 turns to deal with my opponent or for them to deal with my fast units, We only had 3-5 turns. Going second hurt me in the first example and helped me in the second.

      I think making that a mission where one player has the field and the other starts off the board is enjoyable and would hope that GW includes a mission that allows for that in the new edition.

  • Heinz Fiction

    Sweet. Took them almost a decade to make the trygon tunnel usable but they finally did it. Wasn’t that difficult, was it? Now all I want is an apology from Robin Cruddace for messing it up in the first place 😉

    • OldHat

      Trygon has been around what? 7 years? That is some really loose rounding you got going there. 😀

      • Heinz Fiction

        In the grim darkness of the far future you only round up 😉

      • Severius_Tolluck

        Other units had similar rules prior though.

      • Jesse Sinclair

        While the 5th ed ‘Nid Codex was indeed released 7 years ago (Jan 2010), the Trygon was actually first released as a Forgeworld model alongside Imperial Armour 4: The Anphelion Project, back in 2006 (if I remember correctly, might have been ’05).

        It had an early version of it’s tunnel rule back then as well (which was also poorly thought out). So a decade is actually accurate, haha.

        • OldHat

          I forgot about that! Yea, he did come from FW. Jeez, that was ages ago!

  • orionburn

    “From the Trygon rule above, it sounds like the owning player can just choose to deploy them at the end of any movement phases.”

    I could have sworn there was something said that you would still have to roll off to see if they came in. The deep strike mishap table was gone, but there was something floating around where your opponent could place the model if the roll went bad. This is what sucks about having so many articles out there now between here and the community page. Can’t keep what’s legit and speculation separated any longer.

    • Farseerer

      The Deep strike USR is gone so how the ”Deep Strike” happens or the possibility of a mishap will be down to the unit’s own rules. It looks like there wont be the possibility of a mishap for some units

      • Kinsman

        Mishaps are gone, I think.

        • Randy Randalman

          Mishaps were dumb anyway. It isn’t fun to lose an entire unit without any decision making or player interaction before it even gets to do anything on the table top. I realize the “old” GW used to love random “oh sh#t!” moments on the table, but it was bad for regular and tournament play.

          • Being able to deep-strike right next to an enemy unit wasn’t good either.

          • Muninwing

            using the 4th ed DA book, i once tried to deepstrike in Belial and his retinue on turn one.

            mishap.

            dead.

            before the game began, i was down a unit and a commander, down two victory points (slay and first blood), and at a tactically disadvantageous position.

          • Rush Darling

            Fuuuuuuun >.>

            Whilst potentially hilarious in an apocalypse game, that sounds devastating at anything less than 2000 points. Feel your pain bud.

  • Xodis
    • OldHat

      Hope we see AdMech soon!

      • orionburn

        Lots of this. I was all set to pull the trigger on doing Skitarii when 8th was announced. Not that I can’t start buying stuff, really want to see how things are changing and (assuming) the combining of forces with Cult Mech.

        • Fergie0044

          I’m in a similar boat. Bought a stack of Ad-mech stuff in Jan that I’m only now assembling. But which weapons and units do I build?!? Infiltrators or ruststalkers??? Grav cannons or plasma culverins???

          • Farseerer

            My gut says Grav will be nerfed hard this edition.

          • Fergie0044

            Here’s hoping. Nay worries to me, my guys are Ryza so plasma weapons everywhere makes sense!

          • Knight_of_Infinite_Resignation

            lets hope so. And I’m saying that even though my Tac squads have a grav cannon.

          • Koonitz

            Right now, the only insight to this we have is that grav pistols, despite being able to shoot in close combat, have dropped from 15 points to 7.

            That’s a hefty price drop for a buff. Pair that with melta’s new found effectiveness at melting monster faces, grav is no longer needed in that role. This is a prime time to change grav’s combat role.

            As a Marine player, I anticipate a nerf to grav with great pleasure. And it’ll make the competitive marine players saltiness flow.

            I’ve bought a new bucket in anticipation.

          • Randy Randalman

            Grav needed to change though. It is NEVER a good thing for a game to have a weapon that is so universally catch-all. Every weapon should have a specific role. While I get that some people want to push the “Easy” button and just build all of their dudes the same way…tough cookies. Have the variety, make tough decisions during list building, and be a good general. It didn’t require any tactical acumen to play with grav in 7th.

          • Koonitz

            I agree, 100%.

          • orionburn

            Isn’t about building everything the same way. It’s about building on a budget. Some of us want to just get the best bang for our buck. I’d rather spend the money on a different troop/vehicle choice than picking up another box of troops just to have extras sitting around for weapon flexibility. Over time I’ve built my Dark Angels to have a ton of flexibility, but starting out I didn’t have that luxury.

          • Koonitz

            That’s a fact of life with new or small squadrons or armies.

            An Lt. leading a single squad of infantry armed with basic assault rifles and grenades with one SAW is going to be far less flexible than an Lt. at the head of a full platoon with mixed weaponry, or a Colonel at the head of a full division with vehicular and air support.

            There shouldn’t be an “easy out” for that single squad to just take a grav gun instead of being careful about what they’re about to engage to ensure they bring the right weapon for the job.

            Eventually, you will have a Dark Angels army with options available to it. But if the grav gun is a great catch-all, that is effectively as good, or better than, every other option in the game for every target, why have a tac squad with an extra model to swap out the special weapons (or in some people’s cases, two different tac squads), when you can just have one with grav and be good?

            Just bring grav and be boring, just like every other competitive marine player.

            As I said, I anticipate a nerf with great pleasure.

            “Make Plasma Great Again!”

          • Muninwing

            it was the low AP that made grav so nasty. if it was a matter of being great against heavy armor but useless against vehicles, or if there were a lot more things on the table that were wounded on a 6+ then maybe?

            no, it was a great idea, with a terrible execution due to a lack of actual consideration of how it would be used.

          • orionburn

            Seen a lot of people holding up for that same reason. I want to use Skitarii for SW:A so it’s not as big a deal for one squad, but if we can really mix and match finally between Ad & Cult mechs then that changes my buying choices. Oh well…not like I don’t have a ton of things to paint as it is. Waiting a few more weeks won’t hurt I suppose.

        • OldHat

          Yea, I have about $2000 in models in a box waiting for this edition. I was about to start making a War Convo too… but thankfully put it on hold when rumors started. Now with 8th around the corner, I will be able to cater to this new edition. VERY EXCITED. Dunecrawlers and chickenwalkers that aren’t fragile vehicles!?

    • Farseerer

      Am I reading it wrong or can Venoms now take Dark lances and Disintegrator cannons?

      • Koonitz

        I believe they were talking about the Ravager.

        • Farseerer

          You’re right i think. Wording is a bit ambiguous

      • SprinkKnoT

        While that sounds like it’d be awesome, I doubt it because the Venom model box doesn’t come with those bits. Even if I’m wrong about that, I kind of don’t want them to have those weapon because that pushes the Ravager out of its purpose.

      • Xodis

        Yeah, I’m hoping that was just kind of a run on, if they can…ouch!

    • SprinkKnoT

      Excited for our boats to be good, but I still need to see more about wyches to be sold on them. They said they are the “most improved” but that “No Escape” rule honestly doesn’t seem good enough to warrant using them. Of course if they’re dirt cheap they’re usable, but their biggest issue has always been the fact that they crumble to any shooting what so ever.

      • Karru

        Actually, that No Escape rule is seriously powerful. The biggest problem I have, and a good amount of people I’ve talked to, is the fact that you can just escape from combat with no risk. This should not be the case, ever. There has to be a penalty, and no, not getting to shoot or assault isn’t enough.

        • SprinkKnoT

          Maybe? It’s a 50% chance of working though. I’m hopeful that it’ll be useful, but I’m not sold yet. If Wyches are 5 points and unchanged, I’d field the hell out of them.

        • Xodis

          I don’t think units (outside of Crisis Suits) will be able to escape as easily as some believe. First there is the problem of any unit that would actually move out of combat surviving to that point including the initial assault and then the moral phase, then they have to move all models in that unit at least 1″ away from all enemy combatants and thats only if the charging unit didn’t surround them.
          I could be wrong but I doubt its as easy as it may seem right now.

          • Karru

            The problem with the system comes from multiple things. First of all, people seem to think that because it works very well in AoS because people can surround folk hasn’t really being Assaulting much in 40k. Surrounding anything in 40k is nigh impossible. Considering that the enemy will attempt to do two things, avoid the CC as much as possible and if that is not possible make sure that they have a way out if they survive.

            This makes it nigh impossible to surround anything completely. Especially as it now seems that the player who owns the unit chooses where casualties are taken. They just remove them from the front, widening the gap more and more.

            From there, it’s just a matter of moving away from the unit. After that is done, it’s time to nuke the unit. Now they are standing in the middle of a field without cover. Bye bye, Assault unit.

            The key issue is that even if there is the potential that you might be able to surround the enemy or something, there should be a risk attached to it. I mean, when I choose to charge something, I have to take a face full of Overwatch. I don’t know if I’m going to make the charge, but I still have to take the shots anyway. Same thing should apply to units that are fleeing combat. A Roll-off or just extra hits from the unit they are fleeing would make the other player have to consider if its worth it.

          • Xodis

            Why would they be standing around outside of cover, unless the Shooting unit were to also be standing around outside of cover when they were charged?
            Also we have to think about is there still consolidation movement? Could make things pretty hectic when 10 guard members are cut down and removed from the middle so those Berserkers fill the gap and possibly get behind them.
            As for risk, the retreating unit forgoes their pistol shots during the shooting phase, and can’t attack during the assault if they didn’t make it away pretty much ensuring their death. That being said the opponent also HAS to capitalize on the unit being vulnerable or exposed, if they do make it away, because if not the charging unit is just going to charge again and finish the job.
            I see there being 3 types of “CC units”.
            1) Units that lock the enemy down, like Wyches
            2) Units that are too fast to get away from like Banshees and Assault Marines
            3) Units that hit so hard there isn’t anything left like everything Khorne.

            You have to remember with the AoS styled rules that the basic rules stay simple, so the individual rules can build on top of them.

          • Karru

            Most gunline armies, including my Guard, usually does this neat little trick where they stand behind something, like a Wall or a Fence. When an enemy charges in, they are now hugging the wall on the other side. Now, they cannot come around the wall because I always make sure that the unit charging at them will have a hard time getting to me. Especially since they suffered that -3″ of movement from Terrain, it made it extremely hard to surround me.

            Now, in 8th edition if the same happened and my unit survived, I would just walk away and now just shoot around that wall with my other units. The remaining unit is still piled on the other side of the wall, as they get no consolidation move and are just left standing there after combat ends.

            Now they are nothing more than target practice for the rest of my army and the best bit is that my unit survived and there was nothing the enemy could have done to prevent that from happening.

            I don’t know what type of tables you play on, but I usually play on a table that has cover placed everywhere, but there are still open spaces galore to make sure you can move larger units and vehicles around without going into terrain. This usually means that the enemy Assault units have to charge from open terrain into cover. If they fail, they are now out in the open. In the new system, if they annihilate the unit or fail to do it, they are now left out in the open with only a couple of dudes possible standing in cover.

          • Xodis

            Im not sure who you play that uses CC units, but anyone that fell into that trap should have been blown away. The key is to tie up multiple units and coordinate charges with other CC units. Any good general should take failing to charge into account to prevent being the dumb guy standing in the middle of the road waiting to be blown away. Advantageous charging positions is literally what is called for here and what will make/break a CC unit without bonuses. Most of the tables I play on had a good mix of cover and firing lanes as well, but using the terrain to your advantage is like H2H 101.

      • ZeeLobby

        Agreed “wyches are amazingly improved now!”… Uh…

      • Xodis

        Well the 4+ Invul in combat, and the -1AP is a big step ahead of SM, so I have hope for them.

        • ZeeLobby

          I mean old wyches were better than SM in combat, and already had a 4+ invuln, and had access to weaponry better than -1AP, so I’m really hoping it’s like a ha ha joke, and not that this guy has never palyed DE before.

          The problem with wyches was always getting them somewhere, which 6th/7th simply made 10 times harder.

          • Xodis

            True, but taking into account those qualities in this new system might change a lot of that.

        • SprinkKnoT

          They had the 4+ invlun before, and while it’s good, they also had a 6+ save that meant any shooting and overwatch meant they never got into melee with enough models to matter.

          The weapon buffs are gonna be good, but that’s only 3 models out of 10 on S3 guys.

          • Xodis

            With the system changes that might work out better for them in the long run though.

    • ZeeLobby

      Ugh. That roll-off… Queue the randomness.

      • SprinkKnoT

        I’m assuming that a tie means roll again, cause otherwise this rule is actually garbage.

        • ZeeLobby

          i hope so. I just don’t understand why it’s not a flat roll… Why does everything have to be completely random. a 4+ roll locks them in combat. Sounds good to me.

          • Parthis

            Because your opponent has no counter. It may even encourage them to spend a Command Token.

            Mechanics with no counter, at all, are no fun.

          • SprinkKnoT

            This is a very good point, and something I gotta agree with. I wonder how choosing to re-roll works with command abilities work, do both players have to decide to roll? Or can one person re-roll, then the other person can.

          • ZeeLobby

            I thought their goal was to simplify these things, haha.

          • SprinkKnoT

            English only allows so much precision in text. As long as they release FAQs at a regular rate and hit the important questions, I’ll accept ambiguity in the name of simple wording.

          • Knight_of_Infinite_Resignation

            “English only allows so much precision in text.”

            that can be true, but ask a technical manual writer or a lawyer, unambiguous language is possible, particularly if illustrations and examples are allowed. GW just isn’t much good at it.

          • ZeeLobby

            But then please tell me how they factored it into their cost. Cause you know, in a real pointed wargame mechanics and special rules of a unit would have some associated cost. How do you factor in such a randomly determined thing. Am I now paying 2 extra points for a mechanic that can make or break a game? Random everywhere != good rules.

            I mean at least in their old rules their I was significantly higher than their opponents, locking most SMs in combat.

          • SprinkKnoT

            That’s the thing I worry about too. Of course we don’t really know how charging from vehicles and things like that work yet, but if Wyches are identical to their 7th edition version and have this rule, I still think they are 5 point models.

            Also since Initiative is gone, I’d assume every Dark Eldar model should be seeing a point drop.

          • ZeeLobby

            I mean I hope. In the end it is all based on points. So if pointed appropriately then they’re fine. I’m just not sure how you assign points on an ability like this. I mean a good turn of rolls across the battle line, and you’re at a serious advantage. Just makes them super swingy.

          • Knight_of_Infinite_Resignation

            you wouldn’t want Timmy to lose a game and think it was his fault for not playing well. He might get sad.

            And thus Dreadfleet was born.

          • Jabberwokk

            I actually think that’s a good point. On the one hand I can actually charge the turn I arrive on the other I might not make it. Decisions, decisions. Still light-years more useful than any other iteration of sub-ass…..I mean Subterranean assault. Might have to respect it now.

        • Xodis

          Tie should go to the Wyches IMO. You should need to beat them to get away.

          • SprinkKnoT

            Definitely. If the rule was favored for the Dark Eldar, I don’t think as many of us would have this initial gut reaction to the ability.

        • Koonitz

          The opponent has to win the roll off. A tie is not winning. No fall back.

      • Xodis

        Seems pretty fair though and doesnt automatically negate one of TAU’s perks that allow them to somewhat survive combat.

        • ZeeLobby

          I mean it’ll seem fair til you fail all of them in a turn, or you make all of them. I know it’s all a game of probability, but it seems to be another probability generator thrown into a game of probabilities. Should be renamed to Warhammer D6K, haha.

          • Xodis

            True, but it would suck even more if it always worked, didn’t work against units like TAU, etc… Im ok with this amount of randomness as long as factions like chaos dont have 1d6 or 2d6 charts for almost every unit.

          • SprinkKnoT

            In general I’m of the belief that the only random really necessary for the game is the attack system itself. I don’t think these special rules being random really help the game’s balance nor make the game more “fun”. If this rule were 100%, both players know what the unit does and what to expect and the defending player would know what they have to do if they don’t want to get caught by it. But currently with the 50% rule, one of the players will always feel bad; Either the Dark Eldar player wasted points on the unit who failed to do their one special thing, or the defender feels bad because a 50/50 is generally a good bet, especially when the consequence is getting beat up by S3 models.

          • Xodis

            Without a counter though, this would be extremely powerful, like broken powerful. That would also most likely negate Wyches being used since everyone would instantly target them long before they got close. As an aside to that though, I hope they get a ride to battle this edition.

          • Nyyppä

            They should have made it just a 4+ roll. Less rolling is better with these things.

  • Xodis

    This teaser was kind of bland too 🙁

    Hope they are releasing the actual rules soon, because the excitement is fading.

    • orionburn

      Gotta agree. I still go to check every day for the new stuff, but it’s been a bit meh this week outside of the Intercessor marines. It’s to the point now where I just want to see it all and understand how all of this is going to work. Hoping the rumor of a June 17th release is solid.

    • Farseerer

      It’s going to be a long month. My appetite for playing 7th games has gone too. Good time to be catching up on the backlog though

  • Nyyppä

    Ok, so, reserves (assuming there is no way to make 100% sure that they arrive on time) are bad. Further more if you have those and they are not shooters they will fail to deliver roughly 84% of the time.

    As a bonus GW knows this and instructs nid players to literally dig a hole and put their models in there instead of deploying. At least they are honest about it….

    • bobrunnicles

      ?? According to the actual Trygon paragraph above, there is no question that they will arrive. You just put them on the table per the rules, 9″ away from any enemy units.

      • Karru

        Yeah, I am not sure what Nyyppä is talking about here. These are definitely better rules than what we got now. The wording indicates that you don’t roll for it any more and just place it somewhere within 9″ of the enemy. That sounds very powerful, especially if you use multiple Trygons. They are basically Tyranid Drop Pods that just have to land farther away, but can still charge. If they happen to give Tyranids something that helps them charge, I can see people placing Hormagaunts in there to charge the enemy on turn 1.

        • Nyyppä

          How is DS within 2″ and assault and arriving on turn 4 if not before worse than DS at least 9″ away and may not arrive at all?

          • Karru

            What?

            When you say that DS within 2″, Assaulting and arriving on Turn 4, are you referring to the SM formations such as the Skyhammer Annihilation Force?

            Most armies in the game didn’t have ways to “cheat” their reserves in. Drop Pods and Deathwing are the only units capable of guaranteeing their arrival, before Turn 4. Everyone else had to roll for it, which could be made more difficult by your opponent (I am a big fan of the Officer of the Fleet).

            You also couldn’t assault from DS, unless you happened to have a special rule that said otherwise. Again, this was something that was exclusive to SM for the longest time. Same thing about the DS in general. SM was the strongest in that regard, since Pods would never Mishap in the hands of a decent player. Most players didn’t deliver their DS units within 2″ of the enemy.

            Also, I did not see a single word about having to roll for reserves in the article. The Tactical Reserves mentions that if you have any units in Reserves by the end of the 3rd turn, they are destroyed. Trygon says that you can bring him at the end of ANY of your Movement phases, which to me sounds like you can just pick and choose, but it has to be before the end of Turn 3. You also just place it, you no longer roll to scatter.

            To me this sounds way more powerful than what Reserves has been in the past. If you could care to be a little bit more specific, I am sure you can explain the problem to me.

          • Nyyppä

            In 7th you can DS where ever you want where the model fits. That means within 2″ of the opponent.
            in 7th there are also loads of things that can charge from that. Thus 2″ -> charge.
            In 7th things come on board during turn 4 or before.

            The new system is more powerful than the one we have now IF the DS is done by something that shoots a lot. For melee units it’s just useless. There’s no tactics involved. Over 70% of cases end badly for the melee units. It’s just a roll that makes or breaks the unit’s usefulness and most of the time it gets broken.

          • Koonitz

            Risk versus reward, my friend.

            Do you put the unit on the board on turn 1, where it can maneuver for an easier charge, but maybe get shot off the board right away?

            Do you put the unit in reserve, where it can come up closer to the enemy, or in prime position even behind the enemy, potentially capable of engaging unprotected stragglers or artillery (something very difficult to do by straight maneuvering from turn one), but risk a possible failed charge? Do you do so, and then risk using your very limited command points to increase the chance of that charge?

            Being able to appear and charge while facing only inaccurate overwatch fire is an incredibly powerful ability, even if it risks a greater than 50% failure rate.

            It’s up to you to determine whether you wish to take that risk or not.

          • Nyyppä

            The reward is not even close to being worth the risk. The risk is 72% chance of annihilation of hundreds of points of your stuff and the reward at best is some meaningless meat shield unit of 60p or similar cost. Seems like a waste.

          • Koonitz

            Your call.

          • Nyyppä

            Sure. That does not make it good game design though. Any rational person will go for getting everything fielded and working normally from the start over having less than 30% success rate.

          • Koonitz

            Your call.

          • Nyyppä

            Not really if you actually think about it. If there were 2 or more viable options to choose from it would be but since there is only one….

          • Karru

            Can you list me these “loads” of units that could charge in 7th edition without formations.

            Only units that comes to mind are from GSC and only when they roll well on their Ambush thingy.

            Beyond that, I only know that SM has the Skyhammer and some of the Raven Guard formations that allow units within them to charge. Then you had the basically worthless Raptor Talon from CSM.

            I don’t remember seeing that many units that could charge on the turn they Deep Struck. You make it sound like there is a ton of them, so I would very much like to know what have I been missing this entire time.

          • Nyyppä

            Without formations? Formations are a part of the game. You do not just arbitrarily get to deny those. If you want to play that way then the same rules will obviously apply to me. I don’t think that this repeated goalpost moving is what you want.

            In addition to those you mentioned at least BA has those.

            The numbers are not the question here. The question is that how are units that have lower chance of dying because of a failure due to DS+Assault in worse position than the ones that are going to have a very small chance of success which, if a failure is in question, will lead to the deaths of that unit.

          • Muninwing

            funny enough, at the start it was a firm rule that nothing could alter an overwatch roll, and nothing could charge when deepstriking.

            the formations and other special rules that broke those two stipulations were proverbial canaries in the coal mine. they showed that balance was being tossed out in favor of the “rule of cool,” and overall the product suffered for it.

          • Nyyppä

            True, because they did it wrong. It was still not strong enough to work, which is hilarious considering how broken those rules are. Shooting and deathstars are still just sooo much better.

            Now, looking at how shooting is going to be even stronger, the melee is going to be even weaker thanks to various things happening in the movement phase… I find it hard to believe that makind DS based melee possible in practice would make the game badly balanced.

          • Karru

            Also, you seem to completely forget the little factoid that if you got within 1″ of the enemy or otherwise couldn’t deploy a single model from the unit, it suffered a mishap. In best case, it was delayed. The worst was death. You might have been able to place your models within 2″ of the enemy, but no one in their right mind would have done that because you still had to get the unit there somehow AND not scatter.

          • Nyyppä

            Obviously you calculated it so that your whole unit fits there on a hit. Even if it didn’t there’s still plenty of options for scatter that end up with better chances for charges than rolling 9+. How is a mishap roll of 1 worse than failing that 9″ charge and thus getting your unit deleted?

            Just putting the math out there: The scatter die has 1/3 chance of getting a hit. That’s 66,66% chance of failure. Rolling 9+ with 2d6 has a failure rate of 72% and then some. Now, based on this you say that no one in their right mind would have gone with the 66% risk but you also claim that 72% risk is better even though the worst possible result for both is the death of that unit and even that risk is lower with the current system.

            Could you please explain how you came up with this opinion of yours?

        • Farseerer

          This is great news to me. It’s too early to say definitively but if more of the Tyranid units are viable in 8th then we’ll have a lot of happy players.
          This looks like a step in that direction to me

        • Koonitz

          It’s worth pointing out that the wording is “anywhere on the battlefield that is MORE than 9″ from an enemy model”. That means 9.00000…000001″ or greater. Fortunately, taking in the 1″ engagement range, it’s still a 9″ charge.

          However, lots of AoS players missed this wording, and place their models at 9″. It’s a commonly missed ruling. Fortunately, AoS also has a 0.5″ engagement range, so it’s still a 9″ charge.

      • Nyyppä

        They are in reserves. The article states that reserves may not arrive and that it’s a lost unit at that point. That being said, even if that is a sure way to bring them in it still fails 5/6 times.

        • Jesse Sinclair

          What are you basing any of that on? Trygons (and the Troop tagging along) arrive at the end of any movement phase of your choice. There is no scatter, you don’t roll anything anymore (at least on the Trygon). There is no 5/6 times it fails. Unless you are counting a failed charge as a failure entirely? In which case thats just a weird way to think about it.

          • Nyyppä

            Assuming that they arrive without a roll you still need to succeed in assaulting the opponent. You are right though, it’s not 5/6 fail. I forgot that getting within 1″ is now enough. That means that it’s less than 28% chance to not fail. More than 2/3 cases end with the deep strikers dead without getting anything done. This is why it’s a total fail unless it’s a total success. It’s a perfect binary.

          • SprinkKnoT

            You do realize that the opponent has other threats to deal with too right?

          • Nyyppä

            Assuming that the deep striking unit is a lot weaker than the ones already deployed, yes, that is true. Then again if you want to actually benefit from the DS you’ll be forced to go “all in”…..or rather “half in” just to have a chance on making it work.

          • Karru

            But it is still a lot better than it was before. Remember, normally you aren’t allowed to charge on the turn you arrived from Reserves. This alone makes this more powerful and better than it was in 7th.

            Also, we still do not know what buffs some armies might get. There are loads of cases in AoS where certain units gets benefits to their charge distances.

          • Nyyppä

            Better for who? To shooters? Definitely! You might be able to assassinate a buff dispenser.
            To melee units? It’s equally or more useless. Add the increased power of shooting and you get to just forget the deep striking melee units totally. Why do it? It’s an almost certain disaster. Previously you could at least really force the opponent to react to the deep strikers. now they just move away and thus keep up the almost perfect immunity to assaults.

          • Karru

            I mean, care to tell me what was THE biggest issue with vast majority of melee units in 7th edition? To me it was always delivery. Large units would somehow have to get across the table before they got shot. Now they can just pop in 9″ from the enemy lines. Since Templates are now gone, just place them behind some Terrain, out of line of sight and then move your 6″ + Running. Suddenly you find yourself within guaranteed charging distance of the enemy and your opponent has a hard time doing something to it.

            Remember, the possibility that there is no longer any rolling for it and you just deploy the unit is a massive boost to many units that used to DS. Also, this is just how Trygon works, maybe the 9″ only affect it. Imagine if Warp Talons still have the “Blind” effect they have now and no restrictions, other than the usual ones. Pop those bad boys right next to the enemy gun line, blind them and then Assault them.

            There was some rumours about some DS’ing working in a way that if you came in within 9″ of an enemy unit, they could shoot Overwatch at you. Maybe this is just rules for Trygon, as it is also a Transport, and other units could DS wherever they want.

          • Nyyppä

            Delivery was the biggest issue. This thing here does not solve that issue.

            Do we know that you can move + advance + charge? If not it’s DS + turn of getting shot + moving closer + turn pf getting shot + charge + overwatch vs. move + turn of getting shot + charge + overwatch.

            The 9″ rule is basic for AoS. There is no reason to think that the trygon is some exceptionally bad unit in that regard.

            There is also no reason to think that the talons are somehow awesome unit in that regard.

            The trygon is not a transport. It merely lends it’s ability to another unit.

          • Karru

            In the Movement bit we got a while back, they said that you can Advance, but you cannot shoot in the following Shooting Phase. There is nothing there about not being able to Charge. Then again, AoS also has Running, but it doesn’t allow charging.

          • Nyyppä

            So, no reason to assume that it’s possible in 40k.

          • Malisteen

            If you’re willing to burn your re-roll, a successful 9″ charge comes in at about 52% odds. And that’s assuming the units in question don’t have any built in bonuses to charge range. As an example in AoS, Morghast Harbingers can be summoned with a spell with similar deployment rules, and have a special rule allowing them to re-roll charge dice to help them threaten charges.

            Additionally, it’s not like tyranids lack in shooting units that could take advantage of the trygon’s tunnel even if the trygon fails the charge. Plus a number of the weapons we’ve seen are restricted to only firing at the closest enemy unit, meaning the Trygon can be used to feed those weapons some sacrificial termagants while hordes or hormagaunts advance up the board to charge with the trygon on the following turn.

            I’m not saying these reserve rules are amazing or anything, but they’re a lot better than what the deep strike rules were before, at least imo.

          • Nyyppä

            Still useless. You can do that reroll once per phase. You need 4-6 successes to make it worth anything at all.

            I did not drink the coolaid back when GW wanted to force guns on things that traditionally do not shoot. No guns on my nids. That should not make them ingerently crappy. If it does the problem is in the game.

            Now, if a mawlock is great on doing damage and does not have that restriction then that might work.

          • Malisteen

            traditionally what now? Tyranids have always had shooting. Termagants always had guns. Gargoyles always had guns. Warriors always had guns. Biovores were always a thing. The early trygon was defined as much by its arc lightning as anything else. The tyrant and carnifex were potent hand to hand monsters, but were also slow, so they had powerful guns (venom cannons and stranglers in the case of tyrants, bioplasma in the case of fexes) to punish enemies that could otherwise dance out of their reach.

            Even with alpha rush as rare treat, the trygon tunnel described in this article is still a useful tactical tool. You can threaten isolated enemy units far from the front lines, force the opponent to choose between targeting your advancing hormagaunt rush and the monster that just appeared behind their flank, bring a squad of devourers to gun down a support hero who thought they were safe behind a line of troops. Just taking one or two forces your opponent to deploy their troops and fortifications to defend against an assault from any direction, rather than being able to assume a threat coming exclusively from the direction of your deployment zone, and it lets these reserve units be active and baring down on the opponent from turn one, with at best one turn to respond to their appearance even if you don’t get a lucky charge.

            Did you really expect to be able to deploy half your army directly into close combat turn one, guaranteed? do you really think the game would be better that way?

          • Nyyppä

            72% failure rate is not a useful tool. Well, not to a person who has other numbers than just 5s and 6s on their dice.

            Your tactics might work with extreme elite armies like DW, but now with anything else.

            Well, look at the rules. They are even more biased against melee in 8th than they are now and they claimed that melee was viable. I’m expecting them to not lie to us about that. Everything points to them lying though.

            What I’d like to have is a legitimate chance to play melee armies. Does not look like there is such a thing though.

          • Malisteen

            What would you want the trygon’s tunnel rule to look like? What do you think you are asking for, if not to be able to deploy half an army’s worth of melee specialist units and monstrous creatures directly into hand to hand? How exactly would that be at all good for the game?

            Success is putting two threatening units anywhere you want on the table turn one guaranteed with no scatter, leaving your opponent at best one turn to respond before your assault. That’s success, and that success is guaranteed, no scatter, no mishap, no waiting at least until turn two before you can even start rolling to see if they show up and even then with zero chance of charging the turn you arrive.

            28% chance of alpha rush (or 65% chance of getting at least one of the trygon or its tunnel buddies in with a command re-roll) is bonus. It’s gravey.

            The old rules had, at best, a 2/3 chance of charging turn three, with a 0% chance of charging any time before that and a 1/3 chance of not charging until later. The new rules have about a 1/3 chance of charging turn one, and if you don’t make it a turn two charge is guaranteed if the enemy doesn’t deal with you in the one turn they get. The worst case scenario under the new rule is better than the best case scenario under the old. How is that not an improvement?

          • Nyyppä

            Better. For example: Rerolls to charge. The piggybackers being able to be within 3 inches of the trygon even if that’s closer than 9 inches from the opponent’s models. Some sort of additional protection from the inevitable firestorm that follows that failed charge. In short something that does not make that tunneling predominantly a freaking stupid mistake.

            Yes, it’s better in it’s default form than what the current default DS is. It’s just that no one is using the current default DS rules to get in to melee because the formations do it better. Even then the formations don’t do good enough job. On top of that shooting is going to be better than it’s now. So, essentially what we are getting is worse than what is not good enough now on top of melee being apparently even weaker compared to shooting than it’s now.

          • Jesse Sinclair

            You are making a BUNCH of assumptions there. The biggest being that a Trygon will be dead no matter what if it fails the charge. That rarely happens now, let alone in an 8th ed we don’t have the rules for.

            I think you are being far too pessimistic my friend.

          • Nyyppä

            One. One assumption. That’s average luck.

            How does trygon getting killed happen rarely now? Almost any army can just delete it effortlessly without spending meaningful amount of shooting during the task. In 8th shooting is clearly even more powerful.

            Again, realism is not pessimism even though I understand why you’d want to label it as such.

          • Koonitz

            Bye?

          • Jesse Sinclair

            Target saturation. You don’t send a Trygon up all alone. You send it up with a Mawloc, several Lictors, and various units in two are three Tyrannocyte Spores, alongside your fast Flyers so that they have a target rich environment.

            Also: if you are bringing a Teygon in 7th you are clearly playing against friends and not cheesemongers haha.

          • Nyyppä

            Ok. That is possible in some 4k game. I think the average game size is something between 1500 and 2000 points….in which your plan is not possible.

          • Jesse Sinclair

            My 2,000 point list has 4 Tyrannocyte Spores in it. Considering you can fill a Hive Fleet Detachments 3 Troop requirements with only 45pts (three single model Mucolid Spore units for 15pts each) its very easy to fit 9-12 MCs into a list.

          • Nyyppä

            Right. Now, make a list that actually looks like it’s nids instead of tha travesty you are suggesting.

          • Jesse Sinclair

            Hahaha, “travesty”? It’s a game, I’ll build my lists the way I think they’ll be fun.

          • Nyyppä

            Yes, but now you are assuming that your type of fun is universal.

          • Jesse Sinclair

            Uh no, that isn’t even close to what I said. I said I’d build MY lists the way I found fun, not YOUR lists haha.

          • Nyyppä

            True, yet you expected me to accept your “fun” list as being fun for me too. If you did not your point about 9-12 MCs in a 2k list is 100% void. Which is it?

            Language is awesome in that you have multiple ways to express things. The downside is that some people try to use it as means of not being accountable for what they have said.

          • Jesse Sinclair

            Hahahahahaha. No, the fact that you wouldn’t want to play against a monster heavy list does not in any way invalidate my point. You are trying to build a false equivalency.

            I have a lot of fun with my list, which is in no way cheesy (no list that uses the Swarmlord and Pyrovores could ever be considered cheesy). If you wouldn’t want to play it thats fine, this is a social game, but that doesn’t invalidate the point.

            Also, at no point was the “funness” of a list a point of criteria. If you remember you asserted that a Trygon dies the turn it deepstrikes, I pointed out that is false. Whether you like playing against lists that aren’t terrible is not really a part of the conversation, haha.

          • Nyyppä

            When did I say I don’t want to play against monster heavy list?

            Your point was that you can molest the fluff by breaking the game. I never disputed that.

            If you think that the trygon actually is survivable you have never faced anything viable.

            haha

          • Jesse Sinclair

            Lol, wut?

            A.) You repeatedly implied that multiple times throughout this conversation.

            B.) That was literally never my point, that might be your opinion of my lists but I don’t really care haha.

            C.) The Trygon IS survivable. If you can’t figure out how to keep a T6 W6 3+ Save model alive, with easy and ready access to Shrouded and FNP, you are a bad player.

            The Trygon’s problem is not how survivable it is, its the fact that it does so little for it’s 230 points (referring to the Prime version obviously, the non prime is even worse). It isn’t fast enough to reliably get into combat, can’t charge off of deepstrike, it has plentiful but lacklustre shooting, and while it gets a lot of attacks at a decent weapons skill being Str 6 only puts it in an awkward place where it can’t threaten anything but transports, so infantry are a better target, but it doesn’t quite get enough attacks to do anything but slowly grind through a squad.

          • Nyyppä

            I said that your suggestion is a travesty of what nids are according to fluff. I never mentioned anything about wanting to play against it or not.

            I don’t care about your lists either. “haha”

            Obviously you have never put that trygon against any of the present day standard units like deathstars or titans. Getting 4 sD hits to the face is not bad playing, it’s the basic destiny of that trygon. No way to prevent that either thanks to wyverns and such.

            I agree that the present version is just not worth it. The theory is good, the execution is not.

          • Jesse Sinclair

            You heavily implied it and you are well aware of that, and your attempts to gaslight the topic wont work.

            Most armies don’t actually have a huge presence of Str D shooting, not even Knights. Its really only Eldar that has that much ranged D, its melee D that is much more prevalent.

            Regardless, the existence of a worst case scenario does not preclude all the other scenarios. This is a social game, if you can’t find like-minded people to play with that is your loss.

            My list does just fine at tournaments and events. Yes, against mass Knights, grav-spam, or cheesy Eldar it does struggle, but never anywhere as bad as you are suggesting. There is a large difference between “has a hard time” and “omg everything is deleted turn 1”.

          • Nyyppä

            No I didn’t. Go and read what I wrote. Come back with quotes not taken out of context.

            All you need is that one army that eats your alive with impunity and your units are useless.

            If this game needs a conference level thing to find a common ground to fight on without the other player automatically winning then the game is very, very poorly designed, like 7th is. Let’s hope 8th is not.

            So, when was the last time your nidzilla won a GT?

          • Jesse Sinclair

            Ugh, I’m tired of you trying to take everything to an absurd level.

            No, one army doesn’t change that, no, you don’t need a “conference level thing” (whatever that is supposed to mean) to find common ground, no, I never claimed to have won a GT. I have fun at local tournaments in my city and usually place in the top 5-10 in tourneys that are usually 30-50 people at most.

            My gaming groups are smart enough to know that if someone comes with their Ork list you put away your Imperial Knights, and that you don’t play Eldar Dspam unless the other person is bringing a suitably cheesy list (I will, in fact post in our FB group “bringing cheese-Necrons tonight, bring your cheddariest list to fight back!”).

            We never talked about this, we never had a meeting, we are just intelligent people who understand that a game like this is supposed to be fun for both parties.

            Anyway, this started out fun but has become tiresome, I wont be reading any further replies. Thank you for your time and input.

          • Nyyppä

            There’s nothing absurd about not letting you arbitrarily give my words meanings that plainly is not there to begin with. It’s called sticking with the truth.

            So, you mean to tell me that to find an objectively solid level of balance there is no need to actually have a discussion about the factions, lists, missions and terrain. Are people somehow magically perceiving the exact level of power that falls under casual/tournament/etc. lists exactly the same way? That there is no subjectivity involved and the margin of error is pretty much zero?
            Because unless you are and can prove that it is so there is a need for that conference just to make the game playable for both parties.

            If you ar no other person won a GT with your nidzilla then I’m sorry to say ghis but it’s not a good list.

            Local tournaments are irrelevant.

            Your local meta is also irrelevant.

            Giving the opponent a chance is not about having intelligence. It’s about goid will. Let’s face it, what you claim to have in your group is rare and I honestly don’t think that even your group has that on the level you claim it does. Most people want to win. Most people see their armies’ weaknesses and their opponent’s strengths only, not both sides of the coin for both armies and as long as there’s subjectivity involved this utopia of your in which all armies are viable and can win just does not exist in the current 40k.
            This is why the conference is needed and it might take days of debates with loads of people and likely heavy house ruling to make the game more about skill than factions and worth the time in 7th edition. You can not just agree to play a casual game and have a balanced match except by extreme luck. It just does not happen.

          • Jesse Sinclair

            You are also assuming that the Trygon won’t be buffed in any way, that it will be unsupported, and that its shooting will be lacklustre enough to to matter. I doubt any of that will be true.

          • Nyyppä

            It’s obviously going to have more wounds. Other than that there is no reason to assume that it now has bs2+ and 20 or so shots with 30″ range….or something similar that would maybe make up some of it’s lacking capability to reach melee.

          • Farseerer

            this comment section has a totally different vibe once you mute that individual

          • Jesse Sinclair

            Lol, they are being civil to me so far 🙂

        • Parthis

          No, it’s saying, clearly, that any unit not brought on by turn three is lost.

          You’re incorrectly filling in the gaps.

          • Nyyppä

            And that makes 72% charge failure rate somehow an automatic success? I’m asking because if it does not my claim is still 100% true with the corrected chances of failure.

        • Maitre Lord Ironfist

          YOu might got something wrong.

          expl: The Trygon comes in at the End of your Movmentphase. It comes the moment you wish for it (Like Santa Clause with Claws and buddies behind him, that will eat your face – ok it is not like Santa Clause)

          Thats a huge difference to the system now. Also it does not scatter. it hits where you want, but 9″ away from others.

          I guess other stuff will work the same Way. They come in when you want it, where you want it. But you have to do it before end of turn 3 otherwise they are “slain” and will not enter the game anymore.

          Hope that clears it up, at least for the Tyranid Monster. And it is way stronger then now, where bad rolls leave your Dominions doing hell whatever with Pics or RobbyG

          • Nyyppä

            Yeah…..then you are going to have to succeed in charging which is very unlikely even if the opponent is not shooting back. It’s crap, through and through.

          • YetAnotherFacelessMan

            Assuming that there is no special rule in let’s say hormagaunts to let them reroll charge distances, so no matter what unit the Trygon brings with it, you’ll still need to roll a 9 on 2d6…

            This is still an infinitely higher percentage chance of charging off a deepstrike than a Trygon ever had before. There was a reason the Mawloc was a more popular build of the kit.

            Now, rather than arriving via deepstrike and getting shot until I can charge (something Nid players were already doing) I ALSO have a chance of successfully charging in without my opponent having a chance to shoot at full BS or shift his lines to better receive the charge!

            How is this not a flat improvement to the current situation of the Trygon?

          • Nyyppä

            1% is infinitely higher than 0%. That’s not much better though.

            It’s a flat improvement. No questions about it. It’s just that it makes pretty much no difference. It’s still a very low chance of success. It’s like getting something like 10k per month and then the generous boss gives you a huge raise of 1$. It’s a raise, but does it make a difference? Nope. Just like this trygon thing doesn’t.

          • YetAnotherFacelessMan

            Increasing someone’s salary by 10% is always a big deal.

            Assuming they spend 25% on rent and 25% on food, you’ve increased their spendable income by 20%. If they invest that extra dollar each check, taking no hit to their current style of life in the process, then they can begin gaining interest on that extra income.

            Or I guess they can just kill themselves because GW isn’t giving them guaranteed charges with no overwatch, always going first, hitting on a 2+, ignoring all armor, and getting to spit in your opponent’s open mouth while they pretend to like it.

            I remember when genestealers could charge off the outflank. It was a terrible time to play Tau. I remember when Snikrot could bring a unit in off the back table edge and charge. It was a terrible time to play guard.

            This is better.

          • Nyyppä

            Increasing someone’s salary by 10% is a big deal if the salary is big. If it’s one buck it’s not much of a deal.

            This is better than nothing, even if it’s next to nothing.

        • bobrunnicles

          All it says is that if you haven’t placed the unit by the end of the 3rd turn they count as lost – so just make sure you place them on or before you are done with your 3rd turn movement and you’re all set. Where are you seeing that it fails 5/6 times? The Subterranean Assault paragraph just says to place the model on the table. No roll, just place.

          • Nyyppä

            Yes, and we are now assume ng that the core rules have no rolls added to this.

    • Fergie0044

      Where’d you get 84% from? You have a 27.8% chance of rolling 9 with 2D6. And that’s before re-rolls and modifiers.

      • Parthis

        Also, you need an 8; you get 1″ for free.

        • SprinkKnoT

          You need a 9 because you’re not at 9″, you’re at 9.000001″. If you roll an 8 you are now 1.00001″ away and fail.

          • Parthis

            A fair point, i’d missed “more than 9″, and assumed exactly 9” was OK.

        • John Kerrigan

          No, you need a 9. You must place your models greater than 9 inches away, lets say 9.1″, if you roll an 8″ charge you fail because you are 1.1″ away from enemy and out of engagement range.

          • Parthis

            A fair point, i’d missed “more than 9″, and was assuming exactly 9” was OK.

        • Nyyppä

          You fail. “More than 9″ away…”

      • Nyyppä

        I forgot the 1″ minimum distance. I corrected that later….

  • bobrunnicles

    Presumably the Mawloc will have something similar that maybe lets it show up directly underneath an enemy unit – that would be nice lol. Also, assuming Raveners have a similar rule to Trygons they might actually start showing up on the table again 🙂

  • Karru

    There really isn’t that much… new here. I mean, it was clear that Scatter is gone since Templates are gone and as such the Scatter die is gone as well, so there really is no way to make scattering a thing any more. They didn’t give us anything about the largest thing I would have liked to know, do we still roll for reserves or are they automatic?

    I remember reading/hearing that they now come in automatically at a certain point and you don’t roll for it. You get something like half, then half of those and then the rest at turn 3. If this is the case, I’d personally see things like Deep Striking and such become quite useful for other armies and not just Space Marines and their Drop Pods. Heck, maybe even Kommandos will see some action, at least if they give them something that would help them Charge long distances.

    • Fergie0044

      Sounds like everyone can now charge from ‘deep strike’. That’s a big deal, although it’ll be at least a 9″ charge.

      Also only certain units can go into reserve now. A good way of making otherwise ignored units useful again!

      I remember something similar about reserves being half and then other half. Although I agree it’s odd they didn’t mention how that works in this update.

      Just need an update on summoning now to put all those tiresome debates to bed.

      • Karru

        Yeah, overall I am happy about these changes. I have always been a fan of reserves, but they always make be nervous. Even with a 3+, you could end up waiting until Turn 4 to get them. This opens up a ton of new tactics for all armies and not just SM and their Drop Pods.

        • Fergie0044

          My very first time using them, my 6 chaos terminators mis-hap’ed and all died. Been a bit nervous about DS ever since! Quite happy about these new rules.

      • Vachones

        I wonder if summoning is something you can do past turn 3? Or if there are range limitations of summoned units (i.e. being withing 9″)? If so, it would go a long way to making it a possible option compared to standard deep strike/reserves.

    • Malisteen

      there’s not just one reserve rule anymore, so we don’t know for anything other than trygons, but for trygons at least we have the full rules text and there’s no rolling for arrival in it. you just set it up at the end of any of your movement phases.

  • Raven Jax

    I still need to play with the new edition to see, but I’m uncertain how removing universal rules that apply to all units and replacing them with each unit getting their own special rules is supposed to somehow make the game easier, less complicated, and quicker.

    • bobrunnicles

      Because there won’t be 30 pages of them, most of which might not apply to your army, clogging up the rulebook. Instead the ones that you are concerned about that directly affect your army will be with the unit stats they relate to.

      • Karru

        A counter point to that is facing new armies or trying new armies.

        It will be impossible to get “used to” another army or even learn a new army because the rules are so god damn different. Then some armies have extremely similar wording on certain equipment yet still have different effects. This can cause confusion which can lead to accidentally using the wrong rules, unless you are constantly checking the rules for it.

        Both systems have their ups and downs. The current way is fine, as long as you don’t have a rule that just gives you extra rules. Meanwhile the new way is fine, as long as there aren’t 4 different ways how a shield works within the army.

        • Drpx

          I doubt Necrons are going to change much.

      • Knight_of_Infinite_Resignation

        except this reminds me of the situation with shields in AoS. Shields don’t have a single logical effect, but vary from unit to unit, adding unnecessary complexity.

        We were all hoping the game would be quicker and simpler, but Gw as usual cannot hold to a single priority, stripping detail out in some areas and adding in time consuming elements (like allowing every member of a unit to fire at different targets) in other places.

        • YetAnotherFacelessMan

          No one bats an eye when 10 types of swords get 10 types of rules, but when you give special rules to different shields of different shapes made of different materials for different reasons, everyone loses their minds.

          I, too, miss the age of “Hand weapon”. 😉

    • Karru

      It’s like sweeping things under the rug. For some people, it is enough so they call it “more simplistic” but those that actually understand what it actually means, it’s not that great.

      Personally, I don’t mind it. As long as I don’t need 4 books with me to play a game, I don’t care if there is 7 different names for the same rule or 1 that is shared by all.

    • Farseerer

      Having all the rules you need on a single page as opposed to all over multiple books is still streamlined to me.
      You are right though. We won’t know til we have a few games.

      For me the fleshed out data sheets seem to be compensating for a lot of the complexity they have taken away.

    • Scatter 667

      You are right that it will be much more to remember and much more unit specific. But that opens multiple opportunities.
      A USR should have a fixed points value which would be added to the unit cost in a ballanced system. This was obviously not the case. By designing special rule for each unit you gain possibilities to adjust how the unit works directly and there points value accordingly.
      The rules will all be on the unit data seeht, so everything you need during the game will be in the dozen or so data sheets for your specific army and not all over the place.
      The last thing is that you can tailor the rules to the unit playstyle and fluff, which i really like and make the game appear more cinematic which would be lovely.
      We will see if the promised 90min for 1500points will be true. would love it!

    • Vachones

      Consider a new player to the game. They want to run, say, a Wave Serpent, which is a dedicated transport fast skimmer. To understand how that works, they have to read rules in like 3 different places in order to know how far they can move, what they can shoot, and how troops work. When they fire a weapon, they have to look that profile up as well. And they have to look at the vehicle damage chart when their vehicle starts getting hit.

      If everything was all on one page, then its like they had a nice custom cheat sheet with all the rules just for them, everything in one place. They only have to learn the core 12 page rules, plus their dataslates.

      The downside to this is they won’t have a frame of reference for a USR or Unit Type when facing off against an opponent. But, I think the benefits to learning the game quickly outweigh this.

    • Malisteen

      for people who want to memorize every rule for every unit in every game, it’s not quicker or easier at all. For people who want to play the game without memorizing all the rules, who just want to know their own rules, it’s a lot easier, because all of a units own rules are on their own sheet in their own book, you don’t have to flip through a bunch of different pages in another book entirely to see what their special rules do.

      Likewise for people who don’t feel a need to memorize everything that every opponent’s unit might be able to do, but do want to glance over what the specific units their opponent are using can do before a game. That glance over is now condensed to a handful of pages in one book, rather than many more pages cross-referencing each other between several books.

      In short, for competitive players it’s a lot more work to know everything for every game, but for more casual players it a lot easier to find the specific things you need to know for a specific game as you’re playing it. Since the competitive players are more inclined to put more work into learning the game anyway, I’m more inclined to say that this format, which puts more burden on them and less on the casual types, is the better method between the two, but that’s a subjective judgment call.

      • Knight_of_Infinite_Resignation

        they could have just used USRs, but put them on the datasheet. That way there would have been no need to look things up, AND the smaller number of rules overall, applying to many different units, would have made the game easier to learn.

        My other concern is that GW often write ambiguous rules open to several interpretations, or which interact with each other in unforseen ways. With every deep striking unit having a different rule, it hugely increases the potential for mistakes and ‘Colemanballs’.

        • Malisteen

          on the other hand, rules tailored to the particular units that have them allow for greater specificity in realizing the narrative ideas those rules represent. Additionally, you could argue that there’s less chance of weird rule interaction snowballs since a given rule doesn’t have to play nice with every other rule in the game, only with the other rules on the unit’s own datasheet. For instance, if you had a specially deploying unit that due to some weapon or special rule it carries shouldn’t be allowed to charge the turn it arrives, then its deployment rule can just say so, without having to set up a bunch of exception clauses to a USR that amount to every unit having their own rules anyway while creating confusion by pretending otherwise.

          • Knight_of_Infinite_Resignation

            I agree that specificity is good if it adds to feel. I guess its a balancing act, and I think simplicity and universality in rules is more valuable.

            There will be more rules interactions though as these countless rules interact with the rules of other units and characters and terrain. Its not like a unit’s rules are only to do with itself and that a unit is never affected by rules from outside itself. If that was the case, I’d agree with you.

          • Malisteen

            rules interact with other units, but the biggest rule tangles or unintended snowballs come from multiple rules stacking on the same unit. With unit-specific special rules, if an unintended interaction crops up – say one unit gets bonus attacks for high rolls, and a character in the army buffs rolls creating an infinite attack combo, then you can fix that interaction with errata confident that the rules change will only affect those specific units.

            In a USR situation, you have to consider how every single USR works when combined on the same unit with every single other USR, since even if that combination doesn’t exist yet, at some point some new unit might introduce it. And if some unintended and problematic interaction crops up on just one such unit, you have to either put in a change that will affect every single unit that shares those USRs, potentially creating a cascade of further unintended side effects, or else you have to patch on a special rule that changes how those USRs work for just that unit, in which case you might as well have started with unit-specific rules to begin with.

          • Knight_of_Infinite_Resignation

            you are right about rule stacking, but rules can be imparted to units from terrain, other units, characters etc. If all these things have unique rules I still think the chances for odd interactions is higher with unique rules.

            However as you say these issues can be fixed if GW has the will to release an errata. Whichever system of rules is in use, how well they work will depend on how quick GW are with those errata. Historically, that hasn’t been one of their strong points.

  • Well we know that null deployment assault has returned in force with this. Better git gud at bubble wrapping like in the long ago.

    • Farseerer

      How though? It’s not null deploying if you must have at least 50% of your army deployed at the start of the game.

      • Karru

        Indeed. Also, this change nerfs Suicide Pods to oblivion. No longer does anyone have to be afraid of a 10-man Sternguard unit coming in and killing your important units before you can do anything.

        I also just realised that if this affects all units that can DS, it might not be as easy as I originally thought to assassinate backline characters with DS units.

        • Blinghop

          Likely kills DS flamer units, like frag cannon deathwatch (depending on how that weapon functions now, the short range lascannon-style mode may still be effective)

          • YetAnotherFacelessMan

            Not certain on that. Let’s say the drop pod has a similar rules set for the Trygon, where you can come down at 9″ and then disembark out 2″. That would still put you in flamer range. If drop pods force you to stay outside of 9″ also, then I don’t see a benefit to taking Drop Pod Assault Marines ™, and I don’t think GW is going to invalidate my Drop Pod Assault Marines ™.

          • 301stFeinminsterArmoured

            And you don’t even have to ride out the First turn if you don’t want to. Drone/Mucolid/Lesser Daemon rush is going to be a thing now, because you can start the game with your harder, faster units in your back and midfield, while your reserves arrive en-masse on turn 1 to put the pressure on. If your opponent runs any TR of their own, you shut down most if not all of his deployment options with your wave deployment, and force him to go where you want him to, or starve him out of reinforcements.

      • Well… to game this in a git gud fashion let us look at an army that consists of 3 git gud nasty assault units and a git gud character to go with them. You need to make sure you then take 4 min size garbage units that you deploy that take up about 20% of your army’s total cost.

        You are now deploying half your army on the table. However the real units will be arriving via deep strike to tea bag your opponent if he’s not smart on how to bubble wrap.

        • Farseerer

          Yeah, sounds like how I imagine a lot of assault armies will play

        • Knight_of_Infinite_Resignation

          this might be balanced since shooting seems crazy strong now. What will REALLY hurt is deep striking shooty armies who will get the best of both worlds.

  • TheFunnySide

    If 3 Carnifexes can be taken through a single tunnel into first turn assault then we can start collecting the tau salt.

    • Blinghop

      Only if there’s a way to make them troops

  • Players who like null deploy can just not play the silly competitive oriented matched play rules and some to the narrative side!

    I hope 8th does more of this, i hate how bland a lot of the rules sound but if GW fleshed out narrative and left just the competitive players with the bland rules…they could bring formations back for narrative play, random tables, all the stuff that make 40k fun that they’ve pulled out for balance reasons. The only catch is they’d actually have to put the slightest bit of effort into narrative play in 40k, unlike AOS where they completely halfassed it

    • Scatter 667

      Although i agree with you that in narrative you can play null deployment, i think it is not a very good mechanic. Narrative should be fun, as 40k in total should be. Adressing the balance is key to fun, since i would not like to play a fluffy game but get oblitarated in the game, which is a problem with null deployment.
      The thing with random tables and stuff is, that some of the most successful armies are less random and therefore more predictable. If the randomness would be a thing across the board it would be fine but it isn’t in the 7th.
      I really hope that the narrative play will be a winner and not a step child. But i would most likely still opt for matched list building to ensure maximum balance point wise.
      One could also balance off things in scenarios buy having more or less points for one side, some kind of campaign frame work and scenario incentives.

      • Narrative play AOS is pretty popular where I am, though there are of course people that would wish that it died in a fire and that the only thing people played were competitive matches only.

        • Scatter 667

          its great to hear that people value narrative play and i hope its here to stay for both AoS and 40k!
          My only concern with narrative and the vague points is that there might be imbalancing. I’m fine with approximating, but there are always people taking the game to serious and the narrative or fun match turns into competitive. And if the points don’t match this might end badly.
          We played some kill team games and people were on the fun side, but builds pretty quikly turned into competitive, which seemed odd to me. Had that with friendly SWA or BB too. So i think it depends on the attitude of the people if it works out or not. Cause two players and a narrative battle can really turn into a lasting memory of an epic fight ,-)

          • Same thing has happened with normal points for 25+ years unfortunately.

  • SprinkKnoT

    Awesome, a great way to handle Deep Strike. Let’s just hope that the units that can deepstrike <9" away are far and few between or hit like wet noodles.

    Also the Matched play reserve rule is great, null deployment was frustrating to play against even when reserves and deep strike were risky.

  • Hmm, power weapons are -3 overall, ah? So, erm, did Space Marines (and other 3+ units) suddenly some kind of 6+ invul vs. power weapons? :O

    • SprinkKnoT

      Yeah, across the board, things now have a 6+ against things that would have killed them before.

    • 301stFeinminsterArmoured

      Mauls are at -1, actually. As for Axes, they’re -2, if the Force Weapon stats are anything to go by.

      • Yea, but mauls give +2S and axes +1, that’s a quite fair trade-off imo.

  • Randy Randalman

    They simultaneously eliminated null-deploy lists completely dictating the start of the game and forcing an enemy to deploy super conservative, while also denying people the ability to just steal objectives (and thus the game) at the last second.

    Both 100% better for the game. No more avoiding the fight to steal a game.

    • But avoiding the fight to win is basically the way how pesky Space Elves fight best 😛

    • Muninwing

      in 4th, i played one game… Word Bearers Vs Blood Angels

      BA used droppods for every unit

      Chaos had a unit of deepstriking Terminators, a unit of deepstriking Raptors, and summoned daemons ad nauseum

      round one went by with no units on the table. we laughed and went to round two, where everything started showing up everywhere.

      it was a fun game.

      • YetAnotherFacelessMan

        In 5th I played a game where I set up my noise marines in little clusters and then sat there for two turns where nothing happened. Then, on turn 3, all the Blood Angels arrived at once and I was tabled by turn 4.

        It was not a fun game.

  • Keith Wilson

    unless they change the way GC works this means only half the army can be set up in ambush?

    • Muninwing

      yes.

      meaning that they would have decoy units and/or a false-front strong center to lure the opposing force into a trap.

      still useful. just means that you lose one trick.

    • YetAnotherFacelessMan

      If you want to play a full-on ambush mission, make it a narrative mission where you say to your opponent “I want to catch your guys in a column or with their pants down in a base or something.”

      It’s one thing that’s bugged me for a while in regular 40k. If I’m looking across the field at nothing, then why do I even have to deploy? What am I even fighting? The foreknowledge that on his turn 1 several drop pods will come down? If that’s the case, why don’t we set up terrain in a way that’s beneficial to me, since I’m the one in control of the actual field?

  • Calgar

    I still miss the old rules where I had a unit of 10 Terminators led by Calgar miss the entire game cause they kept rolling 1’s. 🙂

    • YetAnotherFacelessMan

      Masochist. I had one game where the entire enemy army missed the entire game because my opponent overslept.

      It was not a fun game.

    • Malisteen

      As a fluff-oriented Black Legion player, a deep striking terminator lord and retinue, sometimes led by Abaddon himself, was a cornerstone of my army until the 6th edition codex stole our homing beacons. My first three games of 6th edition, in a row, featured Abaddon and his expensive terminator retinue scattered onto enemies or impassable terrain and mishapped straight into the casualty pile, in the third game scattering 11 inches to find the lone impassable point to mishap on out of an otherwise wide open patch of table.

      The deep strike rules, and the designers stubborn and seemingly deliberate refusal to give chaos marine players any way of mitigating them, thus killing what had since practically the dawn of the game been an iconic element of chaos marine armies, has left me embittered against 40k for two full editions now.

      I couldn’t be happier that 8th edition looks to finally be fixing it – though admittedly every reserved unit works differently now, and we haven’t yet seen exactly how terminators will work yet.

  • Mathias Vilhelmsson

    This makes my Space Sharks sad.

  • MechBattler

    I really, REALLY hope they remembered to make it easier for units to come onto the board if they all die after turn 3. And what about Flyers that can move onto and off the board?

    • YetAnotherFacelessMan

      It seems like you choose to bring your Trygons in from reserve “at the end of many movement phase”. So, you would have 3 chances to bring in the Trygon, with no rolling or randomness involved.

      • MechBattler

        Yeah I got that. I just hope there’s no rolling involved for reserves across the board.

        Personally, I think it would open up a whole new set of tactical options if you got to choose what unit arrives from reserves and when even if it’s limited to the first three turns.

        Most of the time a player DIDN’T want their reserves stuck off board that long anyway. It could get you in real trouble having units you didn’t want taking fire too soon doing nothing for more than half the game.

        Removing the randomness from reserves would be a brilliant move and really help the game.

        • Nyyppä

          Lets hope they went with no rolls. The only problem I have with that is the potentially very hard to make viable summoning. Assuming that there are rolls involved and the apparent restrictions with attempts per turn this reserves system, as awesome as it can be for some factions, makes summoning basically a stillborn idea.

  • piglette

    *unpacks Snikrot*

  • MechBattler

    I just realized you can do some very, VERY nasty things with Trygon tunnels now. You could put a Termagant blob with Devourers in there and have them dakka the daylights out of a squishy unit. The combined fire from the Trygon and the gants can even cripple other blob units and small units like Tactical Marines.

    There’s something to watch out for.