40K: Newhammer – Happy, Happy Walkers

 

Don’t know about you, but I think those Dreads that have been sitting on the shelf for a while just cracked a smile…

One could certainly argue that Walkers (NOT Super Heavy Walkers) have had a bit of a tough time in 7th Edition.  Sure, there is the Drop Pod army that spits out Dreads, but that is the exception to the rule.  Contemptors and Leviathans, with their improved armour and invulnerable saves, have given a bit of a shot to the credibility of the Walker community.  But for the vast majority of Walkers (Dreads, Sentinals, Killa Kans, Deff Dreads, Helbrutes, Mauler Fiends, e.g.), there has been a reluctance to bring them to the table.

 

Who can blame someone for shelving these units?  Having a 150 pt model single-shot off the table is not something most of us enjoy.  In the age of shootyness (not a word, of course), none of the aforementioned Walkers have much a chance of engaging with their claws, fists, slashing tendrils or mega-ripper thingies.  All we need do is set up a few Grav Centurions, Kataphron Breachers with ranged Haywire, or any of several anti-vehicular weapons and it’s time to start placing the ubiquitous cotton balls to indicate a fiery death and a smoking mechanical corpse.

Enter the wound mechanic.  After literally years of discussion, we have what we have asked for; wounds for the Wound God.  Now not only Tau Boo-Boo suits and Wraithpunks get wounds, but every walker in the bloody 40K universe (I hope!).  I will enjoy seeing those six Killa Cans with 6 wounds each (JUST A GUESS!) clanking across the board on their way to Orkish fun, while the enemy army tries to shed all of those wounds before they arrive on target.  In 7th, I can drop those cans like a land line phone.  One shot, one kill.  That certainly doesn’t mean you won’t ever be able to knock them out with a single shot (depending on the damage characteristic of the weapon).  It is still possible.  Just mathematically much less likely.  Gorka/Morkanauts might be fun to bring again…can you say 18 wounds???!!!  Waaaagghhh!

How about the ubiquitous Dreadnaught?  The Lascannon could pen on a 4 (5 with that pesky Contemptor armour), and with the +1 on the table, it could activate the ejection seat on a 6.  Alternatively, just take the 3 threadbare hull points off with glances, and the job is done with just a much, if not better efficiency.  How many Land Raiders never saw daylight because of Grav?  Now, given the stats we have seen, that Dread will get a 6+ save before the damage die is rolled ((3+(-3)).  Of course, we still haven’t seen the Strength/Toughness interaction, but I am encouraged that those Walkers have a bit more durability, and more importantly, more time to get across the board to their targets of choice.

 

8 wounds is a great stat for a walking war machine occupied by a 500 year old veteran.  3 hull points?  Seriously?  A bloody Rhino has 3 hull points.  So do most tanks occupied by 30 year old Guardsmen.  I wonder how the Walkers/Suits that currently have wounds will make out with the changes?  I am hoping Tau Battlesuits get a fair shake, at the same time, I want those shooty bastards to feel some pain.  Don’t let that Space Marine Dread get too close Riptide Boy…all those fancy guns won’t do you much good when that Power Fist rips (heh, heh) into all that tasty tech.  Wonder if the Mauler Fiends and Helbrutes will have a chance to shine?  Since I am going Thousand Sons now, I would like to think that both of these bad boys might be worth taking again (were they ever?).  Wonder if any of the new force org charts will allow an army to take mobs of Walkers?  How about 10 Killa Kans?  Maybe 4 Gorka/Morkanauts? Maybe 6 Dreads, or 10 Sentinels?  How about 6 Helbrute buddies, all screaming in pain and ecstasy as they rip their opponents apart in showers of blood and mechanical fluids?

Another thing that should be making Walker groupies happy is the fact that since there is no armour value,  they won’t have to worry about facing.  Want to have your S4 gribblies run around back and smack my armour 10 backside around?  Not happening.  You are still more than welcome to overwhelm those Walkers with piles of dice, but you will have to work just as hard no matter what facing you strike.  I am invincible!

The one new mechanic that some folks are probably making faces over is the “degradation tables” (my quotes).  I am not one of these.  I think it is nuts that a model has lost 5 out of 6 wounds, and is still shooting/swinging at full capacity…despite the fact that it is probably missing one arm, one leg, and can barely see where it’s going.  This mechanic will add a welcome tactical aspect to our game, as players will have new choices when it comes to target priority.

From what we have seen and heard, I am hopeful that Walkers will again stalk the tabletop as a force to be reckoned with.  It will certainly motivate me to go out and buy a few more kits to put together.  Those Helbrutes will look so nice in blue and gold!  The Lord of Change has spoken!

Do you think all Walkers will once again be a viable option in the world of 40K?

NOTE:  I am calling a May 27th Pre-Order for Newhammer, and a June 10th drop…That’s just a guess!

  • Tomoyuki Tanaka

    Yeah! My Imperial Knights look like they’ll be stronger. I don’t have to worry about losing 400+ worth of points to a lucky Strength D shot, or melta spam from 2-3 suicide tactical squads rolling hot on their melta strikes.

    • Strength D will still ruin your day, even if it’s not called ‘D’ anymore.

      • Tomoyuki Tanaka

        I’m pretty sure Strength D weapons don’t exist anymore. Aren’t they replaced by Mortal Wounds or something? That shouldn’t kill a Knight even on a roll of 6.

        • Maitre Lord Ironfist

          it is Mortal Wounds, wich i am fine for big/scary stuff or both (big and scarry) – but the biggest buff might be the loss of lucky instadeath and (hopefully for Killakans) a decent Move Value + the Ability to run.

        • Blightstar

          D wont exist anymore but current D weapons are still going to be monstrous weapons. I can imagine eldar Distort weapons are S12-16 and cause more than d6 wounds per hit.

          • Maitre Lord Ironfist

            as long as these stay on powerfull Stuff and are not at some “normal” units like the Wraithbone thingies i am fine with it.

          • Pyrrhus of Epirus

            the smaller units were never a problem at tournament play, if you were struggling with them in normal/casual play, take some responsibility.

          • Maitre Lord Ironfist

            the Problem is, that there is powerfull stoff sprinkled on some factions, were some other factions miss all those toys. Also there is a point difference too. Look at Orcs, a lot of the stuff is just not worth it compared to others.

            or stuff is jsut to cheap. Look at eldar. I can handly yeanari in casual, if the lsit is also more casual centered. But still. I jsut belive that D and isntand death [i got grey knights, still think it is stupid] should be sprinkled on stuff that u do not see board wide. It is jsut not good that D weapons toast you unit, and then souldburst to toast something more. And also you might place more D Stuff next to it. Thats jsut bad design. Eldar are prime in this x) – Also all that high toughness on nearly everything with these constructs.

            i do not see the resposibility i should take? Not playing Casual anymore? Plz explain that part, cause it is not open to me what you mean 🙂

          • Those ‘wraithbont-thingies’ always had distort-weapons. And they always were really heavy stuff.

        • Mortal wounds just bypass saves of any kind. That wont stop the big and really scary guns formerly known as D from dealing 2D6 damage or 3D6. Even simple Lascannons deal D6 already. Or they really only deal D6 damage, but dish out D3 or D6 shots on top due to formerly having been templates.

    • Philip Estabrook

      I don’t think Knights will get much of a boost. The super heavy walkers will likely lose a little bit in the transition. They were impossibly powerful last edition. Can’t see them getting better.

  • Crevab

    Given what we know about the rules, and units… maybe, maybe not

    • Crevab

      Seriously, I know you’re looking for the “c” word, but all we have is speculation

      • Jeremy Larson

        Here’s a problem, and this is according to the previously release information: bolters would Dreadnoughts on a 5+. Seriously, a single tactical squad can take down a dread in fairly short order. Give it a missile launcher and a flamer, and it’ll be dead in a round or two, tops.

        • Crevab

          A full squad rapid firing into a dread would take two of its’ eight wounds if we round up

        • Martin Otten

          Won’t the dread have a 3+ save against any hits from bolters though

          • orionburn

            Yes. Bolters not having an save modifier is going to change things up a lot. A lot of stuff they auto killed before if they got a wound is going to have a much better chance to survive now.

          • euansmith

            “These Orks! They will not die!”

        • KombatWombat

          Quick back-of-the-envelope Mathammer: assuming the Missile Launcher does D6 damage, it would take that 10-man squad 3 turns to kill a Dreadnought. 4 turns if it does D3 damage, 5 turns if it does 1 damage.

        • artty

          yeah, i think a big thing people are forgetting when they’re talking about the ability for units to destroy “vehicles” is the fact that they all have armor saves now. and even the space marine bolters were listed at AP – so no armor save reduction.

          • Karru

            That seems to be the problem with many that are against this change. For me, it’s different.

            My biggest worry currently is the fact that singular vehicles now turned into monsters won’t really be viable at all. Even a Dreadnought with 8 Wounds, 7 Toughness and a save of 3+ is going to fall quickly before doing much.

            Anyone who has played against Tyranid armies that field singular monsters that aren’t flying knows how easy it is to kill them. You use your “heavier” weapons to weaken them and then you use your regular troop unit to finish it off. The “saving grace” of Walkers before was the AV. A bolter couldn’t damage most of them, same thing with Lasguns, Shurikens and so on. They were immune to basic fire which made enemies reluctant to fire at them. This means that the unit of Tactical Marines equipped with a Plasma Gun is much more interested in shooting a Dreadnought instead of taking potshots at something else.

            This leads to people having to choose between not taking them or taking “large” squadrons. Space Marines have some hope thanks to their Drop Pods, but I highly doubt that Helbrutes and Deff Dreads will be doing much outside units of 3. They are just so squishy.

          • Muninwing

            i think you’re forgetting that the same vehicles that you’re talking about are often not taken today because they are not viable due to a lack of durability.

            if that durability is increasing by a little, staying the same, or reducing slightly, then durability will not improve.

            we will need to see what it looks like on the table to actually assess this.

          • Karru

            As someone who uses singular Dreadnoughts and a single Squadron of 3 Sentinels on a regular basis, I can safely say that they are far from fragile.

            The problem lies with a simple question. “That thing has just enough AV to avoid being Glanced to death with my weak weapons, I have to use my heavier weapons to deal with it. If I do that though, I won’t be able to use them against the other big targets waiting to shoot me.”

            A single Ironclad Dreadnought has a lot of potential to soak a lot of fire for something that costs less than 200pts. AV13 makes it invulnerable to Strength 6 shooting and even Autocannons can’t deal with it properly. You need at least Strength 8 to be able to pen the damn thing, before that it’s Glance city. Not that many armies are willing to put out their fire on a measly little Dreadnought that is hopping towards their lines at full speed. Before they know it, that thing is right in the thick of it, killing the frontline.

            Same thing with the Armoured Sentinels. 135pts for 3 AV12 Autocannons is something that most players ignore thanks to the other “bigger” threats Guard army has in store. Leman Russes, Artillery and Transports are all something enemy has to focus on. Again, you simply can’t shoot a single unit of Marines at them, hoping to kill it.

            With the new change, these single model monsters will die out. The fact that I can just turn my unit of Tactical Marines against a Dreadnought knowing I won’t be wasting my shots thanks to the fact that I wound it on 5+ is more than enough encouragement to do it. I won’t be shooting that Lascannon/Plasma Gun against it while wasting my Bolter shots. Now I can damage it quite nicely with that entire unit.

          • Severius_Tolluck

            You are correct in how possibly easxy it may be to wound, but honestly how the game is going now it takes far less choice and far less resources to bring something down. With the change, you may have to possibly dedicate more resources to bring things down, which becomes a gamble, a choice to make.

        • Strategery.

          oh wow i forgot s4 wounds t7 on 5+. i made a comparison above about heavy bolters because of range and rate of fire, but regular bolters? yeah i guess dreads are going to continue to be deep-strike only

    • Strategery.

      things we do know: heavy bolter is still s5, 3 shots. -1 to armor save. basic dreads are T7, 3+ armor save.

      we also know the wound chart has been changed, so heavy bolters will be wounding dreads on 5+, and their armor save will be 4+.

      i dont think i’ve ever had to worry about massed heavy bolter fire when fielding dreads, but i think OP is gonna learn the hard way come 8th :/

  • Matthew Pomeroy

    I love that pumpkin dread!!

    • Knight_of_Infinite_Resignation

      is very cool! Gives me some ideas of what to do with an old AOBR dread I’ve got somewhere…

      Makes we wish BoLS actually credited its photos like a reputable website, then we’d be able to see other stuff the guy/gal has made.

      • Crevab

        I think that dread has been floating around the net for a decade, and may have been uploaded by an Anon. Good luck getting that particular credit :p

        • Knight_of_Infinite_Resignation

          Still, BoLS doesnt even credit the photos people send them!

  • Karru

    Walkers have always been viable as long as the book supported them well.

    I love my Dreadnoughts and my Armoured Sentinels. Both have done massive damage to my opponent’s army. I use Ironclad to walk across the table or just outright drop one using a Drop Pod right in the middle of my opponent’s backline while sticking the rear of it right next to the back of the table. AV13 is actually quite difficult to deal with, unless you are willing to dedicate a lot of your heavy fire against it, this is fine with me because that means my army can move freely without the fear of being shot.

    Armoured Sentinels just roll in the flanks and laugh as the opponent has a hard time justifying shooting an AV12 model that costs 45pts. Again, if they ignore them, the enemy is in a lot of trouble.

    My biggest worry about this new system for Walkers being turned into monsters is basically their vulnerability. Anyone who has played against Tyranids knows how easy it is to kill single monsters. It doesn’t take too much fire to knock one down, especially now since we have the Damage stat in weapons. I’m worried that GW is trying to force people into using Walkers in squads instead of single models. To me this is bad, as it makes some Walkers very unappealing. The Dreadnought for example. Since one can expect that you still cannot bring in multiple Dreadnoughts in different Drop Pods if they are in the same squad, you are forced to walk them across the battlefield. If you take only one of them, it can be easily withered down. It has only 8 wounds and Toughness 7. This means that Bolters will wound it on a 5+.

    Walkers that already were meant to be a squadron might benefit from this. Sentinels will be harder to deal with in theory, but then again, they fill the role of a fire support vehicle and not a frontline fighter like the Dreadnought.

    • Knight_of_Infinite_Resignation

      I am enclined to agree. Since they increased the A to 4 I’ve been using Dreads lots. They make a useful babysitter for a shooty unit particularly other shooty vehicles and can protect said shooty vehicle from deep strikers and infantry threats whilst contributing some firepower themselves.

      If you use the Dread properly, protect it with cover, ensure you are fielding enough vehicles for target saturation, have fast moving threats your opponent can’t ignore etc etc then it will be fine. In short, play well!

      Likewise my Renegade and Heretic heavy flamer armed sentinels are a fantastic unit, I usually field two units of three, sometimes one of six, they simply march at the enemy, give them the willies and occasionally get to burninate something. They won me a tournament once, Skitarii being extremely vulnerable to multiple heavy flamer hits…

      • Karru

        My personal preference has always been the Autocannon Armoured Sentinels. 45pts for an AV12 Autocannon platform is very hard to pass up, especially in a Guard army where your opponent has to choose between your Leman Russ Tanks, Artillery and Sentinels when it comes to AT weapons.

        • BT

          Right… but you also pointed out the flaw in using them. If you don’t have enough tanks and vehicles, it doesn’t pay to use them. So you really wouldn’t use Sentinels in a foot-guard list.

          That is one of the basic flaws in 40k list design, spam. It is what lead to death-stars. There is no such thing as a balanced list in the last couple of editions. It is one of the reasons why I am hopeful for 8th, that they make enough things good, that you will not see spam.

          • Karru

            I mean, I run a balanced mix of units. My Troops are an Infantry Platoon with 4 Infantry Squads and 2 Heavy Weapons Squads as well as a Unit of Veterans in a Chimera. From there I take two Russes, Punisher and Eradicator. For my Fast Attack I go with Armoured Sentinels and Bane Wolves, I might even throw in a Valkyrie for the sake of having one.

            You don’t need to spam anything really if the book itself is well done. Guard book is somewhere in the middle of that spectrum where some units are total trash, like Ogryns, and others are pretty good, like the Wyvern. You can do a mixed list without having to resort to spam pretty easily, then again, Guard army is build on spam as that is kinda their point.

        • Knight_of_Infinite_Resignation

          true, but the Renegades and Heretics sentinels are (without an expensive upgrade) BS2 hence Heavy Flamers are better on them.

          • Karru

            Ah, I wasn’t aware of that. Not that familiar with the Renegades.

          • Knight_of_Infinite_Resignation

            its an incredibly cool list, sadly now OOP and soon to be obsolete 🙁

  • Maybe finally simple Wraithlords will return to the table in 8th then.

    • Karru

      I’ve been using them, but not as much as my friend. On average, he is fielding 3 of them at once every single game. They are not fun when they start to take the field in larger numbers thanks to their pesky Toughness 8.

      • I doubt they will be T8 anymore and they can be wounded on a 6 in general then. But I hope they get equal wounds to a Dread. After all, they are basically the same thing and they had been in 2nd too before GW decided to split them to different types in 3rd.

        • Karru

          I think they will remain as Toughness 8 or 7 at most. Wounds will increase, that’s a given. 6-8 is my guess. If it gets Toughness 8, then I’d say it gets around 6 wounds to “make it differ” from the Dreadnought.

          • BT

            If one thinks about it, Wraithlords are probably going to be a template for the Dreads, as they also had a 3+ armor save. What always killed them (and I love them personally), was the fact they had no Invul save. A Powerfist Sergeant hidden in a unit would kill it in 2 combat phases, and heaven forbid it had a wound on it due to a lone lascannon shot.

            I think anything without a pilot /should/ be T8, and giving it 6-7 wounds would make a huge difference.

          • Pyrrhus of Epirus

            wraithlords were characters in this current edition, why did you not challenge out the powerfist guy? I refused to take them on account of grav making them trivial and the way i armed them, i could take a single wraithknight and it would be better for similar points than 2 lords.

          • BT

            Was a 6th ed game, when they were not characters. That was the last time I used them. I had just given up on them for 7th. Changing them to characters would have made them better in CC, if they survived to get into CC.

    • Farseerer

      With you there 100%. They’re my favourite Eldar model. Bests back in 3rd too

      • BT

        All I have are the lead ones, and lead War Walkers. I think they look so much better than the current ones.

  • Dennis Holman

    Bought a few boxes of kille kans when this was releases. I am ergerlijk a waiting the coming of this edition to have fun with 40k again.

  • ellobouk

    Not to mention that twin-linked weapons now function as described, rather than being glorified targeters.
    My Riflemen will most likely be getting dusted off.

    • Crevab

      I had built a few models with t-l weapons as being a normal one w/targeters. Begone, pet peeve!

  • Josh Heinz

    Only thing that concerns me is the lack of armor facing (or equivalent.) With infantry, it’s no big deal; with vehicles, I really do think it should matter. While with all the new rules, the balancing factor can’t really be accounted for yet, it just doesn’t seem right to imagine a tanks armor as some magic bubble 360* around the hull. Out of all the vehicles ever made for war that I can think of, the only ones that DIDN’T care about protecting it’s weak side/rear armor were ones with no real armor to mention in the first place.
    Hopefully, they have something to account for this that we haven’t seen yet. So far, 8th has been a very mixed bag for me and my gaming group.

    • BT

      Yeah well, you are going to have to give the game some slack for this. After all, it is a game with giant walking robots and spaceships in it. Who knows, maybe they have weak shielding to reinforce the weak parts. Just strong enough to give it all around protection, but not a Invuln save. Fluff is fluff, and it is all BS to justify game mechanics.

      After playing a edition that had targeting grids for every vehicle, that you laid a clear plastic targeting piece over and rolled to scatter if you missed (after you hit it in the first place), where different points on the vehicle had different armor values… trust me, this is easier.

      • Josh Heinz

        Obviously this is easier. Checkers is easier to, but that doesn’t mean much. And it’s not as much of a fluff irritation, as it is a complaint about the logic of the mechanics, and the loss of tactical depth that comes with it.
        Saying it has some force field is just… insulting. The next question would be; why have armor at all, if the shield gives the rear (with what used to be AV 10) the same durability as the front (With what used to be AV 13 or more)? I doubt they would ever explain the mechanic as such… at least, I really hope they don’t. I haven’t stuck with WH40K for so long because of it’s fast, simple, balanced rule set, obviously. I stick around because the Universe is awesome.
        The fluff isn’t just there to explain what happens on the table; not to everyone. I can get down with an unfluffy-as-hell game everyone once in a while, but for a lot of people I know, the game exists to let us play in the fluff. Treating tanks as monsterous creatures helps a little (with it’s stat-line changing as it takes damage), but in other cases, like removing armor facing, just torpedoes the immersion.

        • BT

          Weather you find whatever justification I suggest insulting or not doesn’t matter. In every game, there are silly rules for ease of play that the players just have to groan and roll their eyes over and just keep playing. Each person needs to know where that line is to cross for them, what they can and can’t take to keep them into the game.

          From a game design standpoint, you have hard choices to make for realism vs gameplay. Like I have said, GW has gone through several variations of vehicle rules, and obviously none have stuck. When there is a 9th edition, 10th edition, and so on, they may go back to how it was. They might not, nobody knows. Maybe this version is the magic bullet for this problem.

          I dunno, does AoS have vehicles, like the old fantasy Dwarf Ironclad? Are they coping it to much where they came to vehicles and went, ‘Bollocks… what now? Ehh…just treat everything like creatures. We can change it as the players play more and find out it doesn’t work.’ Who knows what their thought process was.

  • Jeremy Larson

    Here’s the problem: bolters wound dreadnoughts on a 5+. Sure, you lost armor facing, and gained even more vulnerability. A single tact squad with a flamer and a heavy weapon will down a dread in a round, two tops.

    • Blightstar

      You are exarreting, hard. 8 Bolters + flamer is average 1,5 wounds. If Missile launcher is s8 -2 d6 then it averages 1 wound of damage per round. Sure they will damage the dread but its pretty insane luck to destroy it in a round.

    • The Lost One

      You’re planning on hitting and wounding with every shot and the dread failing every save? Not likely

    • BT

      What you have to look at for a current comparison is the Eldar Wraithlord. It is T8 with a 3+ save. What killed it was 3 wounds. Well, maybe now that Wraithlord now has 6+ wounds and fewer things ignore it’s armor save.

      Manned Dreads (Imperial, Ork, Guard, etc) will have T7 with probably 6+ wounds and a 3+ save.

      Really, it isn’t gonna be the tactical squad that kills it, it is the Lascannon Dev squad that kills it on one turn… same as before.

  • Rush Darling

    Keep seeing a lot of posts about Bolters vs Dreadnoughts, so I thought I’d try and write a little analysis. I’d like to start by mentioning that we haven’t seen a power / points cost for dreadnoughts yet (I think one of the latest articles mentioned Tac marines are 13 points now) so its all still a bit subjective.

    Anywho, based on a 3+ to hit, a 5+ to wound and a 3+ save, that’s 0.66 x 0.33 x 0.33 (to actually take a wound) = around 0.074 wounds per shot. That’s 1.48 wounds from a ten man rapid firing squad. (Dreads have a juicy 8 wounds now)

    So assuming my maths is correct (of which there’s no guarantee) you should be very proud if your lone boltgun wielding hero of a tacmarine manages to overwatch the last wound off of that charging dread. Otherwise, maybe fire your bolters at what they can actually kill (because everyone can split fire now, oh GLORIOUS day).

    • Rush Darling

      Lascannons on the other hand: 3+ hit, 3+ wound, 6+ save and 1d6 damage (average of which is 3.5) :

      0.66 x 0.66 x 0.83 x 3.5 = 1.296 wounds per shot. Also interesting to note that you’ve got a 37% chance of actually getting to the damage roll, which is obviously where the luck really counts (six damage – ouch)

  • Wampasaurus

    One of the major flaws I see with the “degradation tables” is it does not seem to take into account regular Infantry models with multiple wounds.
    Why Should a Chapter Master that in 7th had 4 Wounds not suffer some similar loss of abilities from loss of wounds? If we take the leaked Gorkanaut table as an example it started to lose Movement, Weapon Skill and Attacks after it got to half its wounds.
    If we think of Wounds in a esoteric sense that each Wound lost bring a model closer to death wouldn’t you think the loss of abilities should be across the board to every model/unit type?
    I’m not saying I dislike the tables. I actually rather like it; just that they should be balanced across the board or nothing at all.
    And before anyone says “But the Gorkanaut has 18 Wounds and mine has 3, theres no comparison!” There is. That 18 Wound model is almost invariable going to be drastically more expensive in points than a 3 Wound model. In the case of the Gorkanaut vs Chapter Master it is more than 2 to 1

    • Rush Darling

      Have we seen anything so say that this is or isn’t the case? I can’t recall seeing a character data sheet, just the Rubricae data sheet so far. I think this could be cool, though there seems to be an emphasis on making games faster, so I’d understand if they didn’t opt to do this.

      • Wampasaurus

        Not implicitly no, but they make mention that large models and things like Monstrous and Gargantuan Monstrous Creatures WILL be affected by degradation.

        • AircoolUK

          8 wounds, 60 mm base? Not a chance in hell that it will have a degradation chart.

    • Emprah

      While I see why you would want it, it would overcomplicate the game even more.

  • orionburn

    I know for many the one-shot-pop is going to be missed, but I am eagerly awaiting the slow and painful death of the armor pen chart. I played a game this week where I had a 3+ cover save on my Laser Vindy, failed my save throw, one pen shot got through, and he blew it up on T1 before it had a chance to do anything. My regular Vindy got stunned on T1 and killed on T2, again before ever having a chance to fire a single shot. Later on my Leviathan Dread blew up from a single melta shot (he still had full HP).

    Yep…not gonna miss it at all. While I don’t expect 8th to be perfect by any means it also can’t get here soon enough. I’m looking forward to seeing a lot of dusty models returning to the tabletop.

  • Wondering if haywire will stay? Maybe it will only effect certain keywords.

  • Kinsman

    Just goes to show how stupid Hull Points were. Good riddance.

    • Djbz

      From a game mechanic standpoint hull points are exactly the same as wounds
      Hull points was one of the only decent things they added for 6th edition.
      Vehicles surviving dozens of penetrating hits in 5th was really aggravating (and immersion breaking)
      They went too far to compensate (allowing glances to knock them off, only 3 Hp on most vehicles etc) but the addition was better than “vehicles survive unlimited penetrating hits as long as no one rolls high on the damage chart”

  • Foehammer7977

    Another big boon to walkers is twin-linking to becoming two weapons. AS most dread weapons are twin linked,

  • Atzilla

    The baseline of this article is, 8 Wounds sound cooler than 3 hull points, lets skip math. Ignore that 3 lascannon hits can still drop a dread just fine. A 6+ save, so relevant. Everything rises and falls with point cost…

    • Thomson

      I have run quite a few simulations. Those numbers look amazingly good. Insta Kill is bascally gone. Melta short range is slightly better than lascannon which is slightly better than melta long range.

      But its not those crazy things anymore where you have 50-60% chance for an insta kill. It is now zero. Over and out. So even if you are extemely lucky you have to think a little what you’re shooting at.

  • BT

    Here is my concern… does changing the Walkers to Toughness over AV actually matter in any real way? It wasn’t bolters that Dreads feared before, it was anti-vehicle weapons. If a lascannon Dev squad fires on a Walker it is dead in one turn unless it has more than 7 wounds. Even if you give it a 5+ invuln save, it still averages out that 4 lascannon shots kill it in one turn.

    I played 1st Edition, where you played on a 4×8 table (the long way!). All it was then was heavy weapons shooting across the board. It is why Lascannons still have a 72″ range, as a throwback to 1st. I don’t want to see 8th go back to that.

    Seriously, it is sounding like the way to make a list is to have two dev squads, all with lascannons. Your Tactical squads are all purely anti-infantry (HBs and Flamers) and your Sarge has a PF (to help mop up big nasties that get into CC with you). Throw in a few Razorbacks or Preds to put the odd Lascannon shot or two into whatever the Dev squads don’t destroy and your Tacticals can still mop up the last few wounds if needed. Unless they are changing the mechanics of how lascannons work (like allowing the armor save against them), it really doesn’t matter what they change the Walker mechanics too.

    • BT

      This concept is what leads to bad game design. It is what lead to Death-stars… you spam the unit that is most effective against your enemy. If you make shooting king (again), making the distance between your army and theirs doesn’t give CC armies a chance, it makes the game a coin toss. If I go first, I shoot your army off of the board. If you have anything left I am making sure you hit me with less points (specially with morale changes). If you go first… well, better hope there is no more over-watch. If there isn’t, you win. If there is, well, it is even more stacked in my favor as a shooting army. I just make sure I set up in the back 6″ of the board in a attempt to give myself 2 turns of shooting.

      Who suffers? The poor SoB who makes a balanced list. You know, the guy who runs a single Assault Squad and a single Dev squad to go with 2-3 Tactical Squads. They have 2-3 Rhinos and a single Dread and a single Terminator squad with their Captain. You will never see that list, just like you never see it now. But hey, I can dream. I can hope points is points. Where using those points on the table top mean more than using those points in a list.

      • Ronin

        Kind of why I was hoping 8th would go the direction of alternate activation rather than IGOUGO.

    • davepak

      I hate to say it, but four lascannon shots that hit just about anything in one turn, unless a titan, I would think it SHOULD kill it.

      its all about target priority – don’t make it easy for the devastator squad to pick a target – make them face multiple threats, force decisions, and take them out.
      Every battle has losses, it all about making sure yours count for less than the other guy.

      • BT

        Maybe, but we are also talking about a time where there was little to no split firing. If you faced a Dev squad, or something similar, you were eating 4 heavy weapons to the face, whatever weapon they might be. If it was four Autocannons, would it matter? Plasma Cannons? Is it really gonna change now with no AV? Well, you might see four Heavy Bolters in a Dev squad now.

        I understand what you are saying, don’t take one of anything, bring redundancy for your list. But you also have to expect to face the same redundancy in any list you face. When you are talking 240pts for a 10 man, four LC Dev squad (or 480 for two), how many points can you spend to saturate the field with vehicles that will not allow them to make their points back? It is why people stopped taking Land Raiders and Dreads in the first place. It is why it was all bikes, Centurions, or drop pods for the majority of Marine lists.

        The new rules change is not going to make the players change that much in how they make lists. You are not going to see a single Dread in a list because of some notion that the new rules make it more ‘survivable’ than a single Dread in the old rules. Quite the opposite, if you go off of all the folks crying about how bolters can kill a dread. Just going to see more Heavy Bolter spam to be honest.

  • MechBattler

    But what if Dreads have a dozen or more wounds?

  • Marco Marantz

    Dreads are not going to become overly strong in 8th, perhaps just viable. At least in 8th they wont get stunned, shaken or worse and rendered useless before they are finished off. I was expecting armor of the heavier vehicles to be better than it is going to be. Anything will still die quick to focus fire.

  • Muninwing

    i am concerned that walkers will lose their status as mobile weapons platforms… while good in cc, in 7th they can usually shoot all their stuff (iirc it’s up to 4 weapons at full BS after moving?)

    sure, i’d like to see them be more survivable, but i’d like them to be feared for a number of reasons. balanced of course, but still feared.