Goatboy’s 40k: Moving Towards 8th

Goatboy here again and I just want you to know – EXCITEMENT FOR 8TH GROWING!

And that’s just the White Dwarfs… 🙂

I moved this past weekend into a newer and bigger house.  It means a complete refresh of my “miniature” cave and a better office to work in.  The last one was very cramped and packed full of stuff I just couldn’t part with – because a lot of it wasn’t mine.  But I digress as it is moved, the cave is getting put back together, and I continue on with excitement to the coming new edition of 40k on the horizon.  It is so hard to get motivated to start a new project right now.  I have some AOS ideas but it requires a large amount of expensive models (Skullcrushers are my favorite and bane of my wallet) and the move keeps me from getting and true modeling time.  I hope to start painting again on Sunday.  We’ll see – there are still a ton of boxes to go through and some things to find that I need to start for a client or two.

Onto the awesome news from this last week:

Uber-marines

The biggest “preview” we got this week is the confirmation of bigger and “better” marines.  I do like the overall design as it helps answer the “true” scale marine fanatics and gives GW another way to sell old Marine players, new marine units.  I think rules wise they are ok.  I always thought Marines should be moved to 2 wounds due to the new rend mechanic so having a “basic” marine with a better gun and more survivability is a good thing.  We don’t know enough of their other weapon options yet so it is harder to judge.  It sounds like all the “marine” options (Assault, Devs, Sternguard) might show up in the new bigger marine flavor.  The idea of super assault marines is pretty interesting as they would come in with 3-4 basic attacks depending on how the rules for extra CCW work and Chainswords.  The hints of their point cost being more then a “Grey Knight” is kind of worrisome as I feel this edition will be extremely bloody.  AOS is a very brutal game and with 8th taking a ton of pointers from AOS it would seem this would be another hamper to a low model count army that isn’t a ton of big monsters.  Will have to wait and see.  Overall I like the way they look and their rules seem interesting enough to warrant review.  The rumor of them showing up in the new starter box means will see a ton out there pretty quickly.  I know I plan on trading out my bigger marines for more Death Guard because if Chaos is good I will always try to play Chaos.

Assault

The close combat weapon preview is very interesting as it seems to have “fixed” chainswords.  Now of course you are losing your extra CCW attack you had from a pistol but you at least gain it back with that crazy buzzsaw.  It gives me hope that the Khorne Chainaxe is some kind of monster weapon.  Maybe it gives you more attacks as you roll a 6 and go buzzsaw crazy.  I think the shift in the power weapons is a rather interesting one as giving the Sword the better “Rend” seems like a good answer to say more Marines and terminators.  It depends on if they are heavily used in the new edition.  For most “Xenos” it would appear the Axe would end up being a better option.  I didn’t see anything about ranges in the Close Combat update so I still don’t have an answer on how many people get to attack. I get the feeling this edition is going to be a big “bases” matter so getting into base to base will be important.  Or at least within the magical 1 inch of activation.  We did get some good answers and it shows me that GW really has spent the time to work on this edition.  I also liked how the Reaper Chainsword for the Imperial Knight is a murder machine.  No info on AP – but I am guessing it is a solid -4.

Imperial Knights

Speaking of Knights we got a good answer on how many Wounds these big things might have.  The Imperial Knight gets a nice 24 wound base to start with and sitting at T 8 and S 8 it should be a pain in the butt to deal with.  I am annoyed the only answer we got on Stomps is that there is no more dreaded 6 option.  I am thinking it is something like d6 Mortal wounds to the unit it is engaged with.  It would be simple, not insanely brutal, but still decent to help get it out of scraps.  I did like how it can “step” over infantry to continue its shooting rampage.  I wish we saw more guns with this one as I was never a fan of the Melta Cannon.  I won’t go into how many times it failed me within a half range.  The super heavy detachment is pretty interesting too as it gives a simple and unique way for all armies with Super Heavies to work.  Without knowing the point costs it has hard to truly judge if it will be an issue – but right now GW has my faith in that the game will move into one that will showcase your collection instead of just a few specific “good” models.

Dark Kin

The Dark Eldar preview was neat too.  It gave enough hints of the army returning to the quick and surgical strikes it used to have.  It always felt like an army full of beautiful models that never had a true “agenda” beyond just not being very good.  I had memories of the old Dark Eldar kicking the crap out of me when they jumped out of a Webway portal.  The old Wyches kicking my butt and the dreaded counter attack from the Incubi.  I think the only good “unit” in the game was the Corpse Thief Claw formation.  I painted a few of them for clients and have dealt with them in games.  I don’t have any interest in playing the army but it sounds neat that it might show up again on the table top.  Will see how “Forgeworld” 8th up’s the Corsairs for this new edition and maybe the Dark Eldar will be more then a footnote to an Elder army.

Vehicles

The vehicles preview has me interested in that they get an attack value now.  It makes me excited to see the crazy stuff Orks get as I have a plethora of Battle Wagons, deff rollas, and orgs to use and abuse.  I think that is the biggest faction preview I want now as I haven’t played Orks since 6th edition and I am craving a reason to paint me up some nutters.  I do wonder how useful it will be to “throw” Rhinos at units to soak up Overwatch.  It would depend on how fast the other stuff in the army is.  I will laugh at any Rhino that Dukes of Hazards its way through an Imperial Knight.  We are starting to see a pretty useful method for figuring out Wounds on a lot of vehicles.  Obviously ones that need to get “slower” will have more and that is better set for the Marque vehicles – Land Raiders, Leman Russ’s, etc.  I am really wanting to know some of these “extra” rules we get hints of with things like Titanic Feet from the Knights and most likely Machine Spirit for the Marine options.  Its getting hard to keep from shouting at my monitor each day I don’t see a release date.

Command Points

The Command point usage was an interesting thing.  I don’t know how good it will end up being but I suspect will see more “army” based usage of Command points.  I think this is where will see some broken options as some armies might have extremely useful abilities.  I think the auto pass a morale check will be useful at times – just to keep a unit around as needed.  The single Reroll could be huge depending on the things we are needing.  Trying to pull a 6 on a D6 wounded option will be important to take down the big monsters.  I think any true issues will come from when they release “army” books but with just the Death Guard and most likely some kind of Marine release coming will probably have awhile to wait for something rough to come out.

Odds & Ends

Which of course leads into GW actually having a way to listen to issues.  I know they will have the ears of the “event” organizers that helped them balance the new edition and those guys run enough events to foresee problems.  With the idea of a living rule set and hopefully the continuation of “free” rules we might see fast fixes on things not found.  This is really a new day and age for GW as they have come into the idea that while they do make the best miniatures, they could also make a really good game to go with them.  Crazy hobbyists can only let the game survive so long.  Heck I am just excited to try and find my box of Flashgitz to build and use finally.

The final thing that really had me excited is the return of only having half of your army in reserve.  This is huge as it helps nerf the Drop Pod issue where some “maelstrom” things you could never lose due to a well timed Drop Pod assault.  I also hear that with the removal of Scatter dice – deep strikes are limited to only being able to get as close as 9 inches on your army.  This is huge as it gives those armies without the “deep strike” options a way to truly cover and protect themselves.  It sounds like you can choose when your units come in from reserves as it states anything not coming in by turn 3 is considered dead.  Its starting to look a lot like a balance game right now.

That is it for now – lets hope we see some Orks, a release date, and maybe a bit more about the new psychic phase or as I suspect – the Hero phase – that will be coming.  I can’t wait to get my Death Guard army started and hopefully get a great refresh of the game I have spent so many years chattering on and on about.

~Which 8th edition reveal has you the most excited?

  • el_tigre

    I’m hoping for a game as close to balanced as possible, not so much because the imbalance was ever much of an issue for me but because the more balanced it is the more likely it is we’ll get to see some truly epic breakdowns as the WAAC players try to write that unbeatable plate of spam only to find that they have to go back to winning on the tabletop rather than on the spreadsheet.

    • AircoolUK

      Now that a lot of the rules are ‘fuzzy’ (eg, Str v Tough isn’t as static, AP modifiers affecting saving throws instead of the old binary choice etc…), the options for what you can bring to the table should open up significantly.

      You can’t rely on high saving throws that aren’t affected by most weapons anymore. A Heavy Bolter with its AP -1 can now cause some serious damage to MEQ’s, rather than being utterly pointless.

      A weapons strength is still very focused towards a certain toughness, but can now affect a wider range of targets, as well as providing a little bit more survivability to lower toughness targets.

    • Pyrrhus of Epirus

      Youve seen Jurrasic park right “life will find a way” from Doctor Malkim, well in this case “WAAC will find a way”. Never doubt despite GW best intentions , WAAC players will find whatever edge they can get, and will use it.

      btw, i hope your not jsut blanket refering to tournament players as WAAC by default. I play in 2-3 tournaments a year, including atleast 1 ITC major, ive never run into an actual WAAC player. Its almost like an misunderstood internet myth but i digress.

      • Karru

        WAACs do exist, but they are extremely rare. I have met one during my entire miniature gaming life and let me tell you, I seriously started to consider if strangling a man while shoving his models up his rear was completely acceptable once I explained the situation to the police.

        Anyway, “WAAC” attitude will make its presence known in any game it gets its cheeto covered fingers on. AoS has it, 40k will have it, there is no way to escape it. Only ones who can make sure that it doesn’t break the game completely is GW and no one else. Community and TO’s can do whatever they want, but as long as GW doesn’t fix it, it will remain something that can be done. 7th edition is a living example of this.

        • Red_Five_Standing_By

          I have faith that GW is going to be active this edition and try to nerf good units and buff bad ones.

          • Karru

            Until I see a massive price hike for the Knight, around 450pts, I am not in any way confident of their abilities.

  • Karru

    It’s currently Tyranids I am most excited about. Since we haven’t heard anything meaningful about Orks yet, it leaves me thinking of switching to another horde based army purely because Orks are currently looking like they are getting the shaft.

    Something I am also interested about is the way GW expects “regular” armies to take on the Knight without losing horribly to it. I mean, Toughness 8, 24 Wounds, 3+ / 5++ save with 12″ of movement makes it almost impossible to stop without needing to go with something that especially hard counters it. I mean, even Lascannons and Meltas will have a hard time killing those things even semi reliably. Then you have armies that rely on Melee for their high damage AT, like Orks and Tyranids. Those things will laugh as the enemy attempts to pathetically reach it and then damage it, before it just walks away to continue its reign of destruction.

    • Astmeister

      The Knights might be an issue. But the reroll to Stratagems thing can prove very usefull if you shot laser cannons at the Knight. I also expect that the primaris marines will have something like 5-10 Marines with all Meltas, which will kill a Knight in 1 turn.

      • Karru

        I mean, I can see how Imperium can deal with them, because they have access to the Knight, same with Chaos, but I have a hard time figuring out how Orks for example can deal with them. There is nothing in the Ork arsenal capable of dealing that much damage reliably without being killed before they get to do it.

        The key problem will be the Knights price most likely. They won’t increase the price of the knight enough, it will remain around the 375pts range unfortunately.

        • Majere613

          I don’t think it should be too much of a problem. Remember the Gorkanaut has been buffed up to near super-heavy status (18 wounds) and the Klaw of Gork was already pretty potent, it just didn’t usually get to swing. Since chargers now have initiative, that’s less of an issue. For shooting, the Mek Gunz were pretty solid AT for the points and hopefully that’ll continue to be the case.

          Oh, and we may well be able to run over its feet with a Deff Rolla 🙂

          • Karru

            Gorkanaut might have some potential, but it will remain to be seen as it can be quite easily shot to pieces before it can do anything and it is slower than the Knight.

            Mek Guns won’t be that solid since they now lack a save against enemy shooting thanks to the way cover and AP works. They’ll get shreded before they can do anything meaningful to the Knight.

            Deff Rollas could be the answer though.

          • Where are you getting that about the Mek Gunz?

          • Karru

            Currently, they have a 3+ save, which is nice, but the Grots have Ld 5. With the new rules, if the unit suffers 4 models worth of damage, which is highly likely as they are now getting a 4+ save against AP -2 weapons if they are in cover, they will kill themselves in the Morale phase, especially if the opponent decides to shoot them a couple of times after that.

            They will have Ld 4 most likely in the coming edition (Marines were 8 and were reduced to 7 in this edition). This means 4 Casualties leaves them open for D6 extra automatic wounds.

          • Sure, morale is a threat, it was before.
            If your like me then you don’t put them in units larger than 2 or possibly 3. However, we don’t know what GW plans to do with artillery units yet. Heck, maybe they’ll be vehicles. we don’t know. This is one of the times where I can’t site how AoS does it. I don’t have any and haven’t looked. (But I will.) Thinking about it I don’t know how useful artillery will be in the new edition. It looks extra face smashy, like they want armies to crash into each other more than lightly move around.

          • Matt Halkos

            It isn’t slower than the knight… if it charges it will go first. It’s 50/50.

          • Karru

            Yes it is. Gorkanaut has a Movement of 8″ at full power. Knight has 12″.

          • euansmith

            I’m assuming that GW, with their love of “Da Big Kitz” will be pushing the Stompa again in 8th Ed.

          • Karru

            One can hope. I’d really love to add one to my army, but the thing costs almost half of the army with minimal contribution right now. I wouldn’t even care if they reduced its effectiveness even more than it has now, as long as it would get under 500pts like the Knight.

        • Rob brown

          at least it’s better than the current system where at the moment only a few things can scratch it and those get ignored on a 4+.

          As you said, lower AP shots with high strength will be the way to take them out. I suspect missile launchers or rockets depending on if they give them d3 damage.

    • I’m not overly optimistic this morning but I don’t see any signs that Orks are getting the shaft.
      I mentioned on Da-WAAAGH forums I hope Orks get the faction Focus last. For two reasons one is Then at least we’d have context. Well more context anyway. The second is I want the suspense to last. Just let the shark circle the boat, Or just play the music and don’t show the shark at all.
      It’s going to be a blood bath either way. I’m happy to wait.
      What is interesting though is that we now know that immunity to morale is a thing in New Hammer.
      Very interesting.

    • Koonitz

      I fail to see how a Knight can be (edit: any more of an) issue in the new edition (compared to 7th).

      Right now, a lascannon can, unless it gets a lucky 6, do 1/6th of a Knight’s damage. 24 wounds, broken down, equates to 4 wounds per original hull point. That’s the high end of average for a lascannon’s 8th ed damage, meaning a lascannon that gets through (which is now only a 5+ invuln compared to a 4+ previously) has a 50% chance of doing at least as much damage as it would have in 7th.

      Combine that with a lascannon’s damaging on 3+ instead of glancing on 4+ against front armour 13 means you’re more likely to wound it and more likely that the wound will not be saved. Overall, a buff to any anti-tank weapon’s ability to damage it.

      Ork rokkits? Assuming they’re S8, will wound on 4 instead of glancing on 5’s. We don’t know how much damage a rokkit/krak missile will do, but at least d3 is reasonable (which, admittedly, would be less damage than a single glance, see above about lascannons), and d6 is possible to keep it on par with other anti-tank weapons.

      Lootas, assuming they stay S7, will wound on 5+ instead of 6+. Double the wounds (sure, likely only -1 rend, so keeping the save at 4+, or forcing the knight to try to take cover to maintain a 3+, which may limit its movement). If the loota’s guns have any more than 1 damage a shot, they’re likely to rip large holes in an Imperial Knight with relative ease (with the caveat of normal ork randomness).

      Also remember that, unless the Knight has a specific rule, you can still tar pit it. If a knight falls back out of combat, that’s a really big model not shooting you that turn.

      Sure, you can’t flank it now to avoid the Ion shield, but having it reduced to 5++ reduces its overall effectiveness against most attacks, especially early on, when it’s easier to keep all attacks in a single facing.

      Beyond that, we simply don’t know how orks will function or what they will have available to them to deal with a Knight.

  • Thomson

    For guard the definitely most powerful use of the reroll is the number of shots for the explosive weapons.

    • Karru

      Not really. The problem is that you get to re-roll one dice per phase and you have to pay a command point to do it. I have a feeling that vast majority of Guard shooting will shift to “more reliable” weapons. Such as the Exterminator and Autocannons. Basically weapons that have more shots guaranteed than your average roll on an Explosive Weapon.

      • AircoolUK

        Template weapons seem to be less focused on specific target types now. The choice seems to be either to pick a dedicated weapon for a particular target, or take an old template weapon that has a wider range of targets, but is less effective all round.

        They might actually become popular choices if it becomes a lot harder to predict what you’re going to be facing on the tabletop.

        • Karru

          Unfortunately, this is not the case. A Battle Cannon averages 1-2 wounding hits before the enemy gets a save.

          Old flamers might what you described, but old blasts are pretty much worthless. The problem with them is the fact that you still need to roll for hits. This means you are usually averaging 2-3 hits per D6. After that you get to wound, so you are far better off with weapons that have solid number of attacks.

          For example, the Exterminator, if it follows the current logic, will have 8 Shots at Strength 7 AP -1. Since we haven’t seen Autocannons yet, we do not know if they’ll have something like D3 damage or more like Disintegrator Cannons(?) that cause 2 wounds. Much, much more reliable against any target than the Battle Cannon.

          • Viper666

            For Twin Autocannons, you mean 4 shots, not 8… I guess they’ll get an Heavy 2 S7 AP-2 Dd3 profile. They’ll be the go-to weapon in this edition along with the assault cannons

          • Karru

            Exterminator Autocannons are Heavy 4 Twin-linked right now. That would mean Heavy 8 in 8th edition.

          • Viper666

            Damn you are right! They sure will be the go-to LR variant if they become heavy 8, right with the FW autocannon turrets for the Chimeras 😛

          • Mr_Pickles

            I figured AP vs modifer would look like:
            AP 5 to -0
            AP 4 to -1
            AP 3 to -2
            AP 2 to -3
            AP 1 to -4

            Although there could a lot of info i’m missing.

          • Red_Five_Standing_By

            Generally probably true but GW will likely alter things to ensure each weapon has its own niche (like the way Power Swords have -3 AP, while axes get +1S and -2 AP.

      • Thomson

        It heavily depends on the point costs of the different weapons.

        If a battle cannon russ is still a lot more expensive that an exterminator you are probably right.

        But if its the same cost or just a little more expensive it is an interesting option.

  • AircoolUK

    It’s almost as if GW has bugged our LFGS as most of these changes are in line with how we would not only change 40K, but also GW’s public relations and business practices.

    My only concern is how quickly we’ll get new codexes and models post release. No doubt P-Marines and D-Guard will be first (perhaps Space Marines and Chaos Marines will be on a similar timeline).

    Will they release for popular armies first, or will they address some of the model ranges which are at least 15 years old?

    • Chaosrex

      Our FLGS owner said the same thing.

      Since he installed a surveillance camera in the shop a few years back, he always says that when changes are made to the game, and its something we discussed in the shop, that this camera is directly linked to GW HQ, so if you want changes speak up to the camera( with a hint of sarcasme obviously).

      So since the 8th “leaks” he looks at us and says ” see?, it works!, its exactly what we said last time and they’re doing it!”

    • Fergie0044

      There’s a rumour floating about that 2017 will be codex releases for marines, ad mech and chaos with 2018 being xenos. Take with the usual amount of salt.

  • Rob brown

    It really annoys me when people say ‘rend’ when they mean AP. After all rending in 40k is a totally different rule that looks like it will be preserved in some ‘rending weapons’ that take AP to -4 on a 6 to wound.

    I get that some people play Age of Sigmar too, but if you’re writing or commenting about 40k you should use 40k terminology. It’s just confusing to people who don’t play AOS.

  • Crevab

    Moving vehicles to Toughness had me excited. Too bad they dropped many of them down 1

  • Red_Five_Standing_By

    Tau are going to be hurt by a lot of things this edition:

    – When Grenades are thrown into ruins, the grenades will deal the maximum number of shots
    – You can consolidate into melee
    – You can charge with transports (thus sparing the charging unit from being overwatched)
    – Melee armies have gotten way faster and have beastly profiles
    – Assault out of deep strike
    – Snipers being able to, well, snipe HQ choices is going to really hurt.

    The way I see it, Tau are going to need kroot speed bumps, strategically placed so that enemy units cannot easily consolidate into the tau lines. They will also need a good mix of infantry, suits and tanks/mechs to handle enemy forces, which is something I do not think other armies necessarily have to do (foing all in on melee will probably be highly rewarding).

    The best defense against drop pod/deep strike armies is to have a few small units strategically spread out across the battlfield. This way the enemy will have trouble finding a useful position to deploy in that is 9 inches away from Tau units. However, with native split fire, the enemy units can pump a tiny number of attacks into the small Tau units and kill them, while still maintaining efficiency with their other shots (who can shoot at more threatening Tau Units).

    I am not trying to be a pessimist but I definitely see this edition being rough for Tau unless their shooting phase is stunningly strong.