40K: Re-Rolls & Modifiers: Rules Breakdown

Continuing our series on rules you might have missed, we’re diving into how how Re-rolls & Modifiers work in Warhammer 40,000 8th Edition!

With the rules on the way this weekend it’s been hard to explain to folks without the rulebook how things work. Thankfully, the book will be on shelves on Saturday so people can finally get a copy and read it for themselves! But, I wanted to try to help clear-up a point of contiention about how Re-rolls and modifiers work. We have a rulebook so you can either take my word for it or wait till Saturday to get your own and read it for yourself (but for future reference, I’m looking at BRB pages 178 & 181 with examples from the indexes mixed in).

The Basics

Let’s assume you’ve already picked a unit to shoot with, their target, ranged weapon, and determined the number of attacks. You’re ready to Resolve the attacks at this point. This is a pretty familiar situation for any veteran of the game:

  1. Roll your dice
  2. Compare with Ballistic Skill Characteristic
  3. If equal or greater, it’s a hit
  4. If less than the Ballistic Skill Characteristic value, it’s a miss
  5. If the “natural” die roll is a 1, it is a miss
  6. Go on to Wounding Steps

Then you move on to shooting and you’re ready to rock. Make sense? Good. Now it’s time to add some re-rolls to the mix and see if we can make it crystal clear.

Adding in Re-Rolls

Here we have Azrael back again with his cropped stats. His ability Chapter Master allows friendly Dark Angel units within 6″ to re-roll failed hit rolls (side note: that’s for both shooting and melee – always refer to the datasheet for clarification… Also, he’s considered a Friendly Dark Angels model with 6″ of himself, too so he also gets the benefit).

So going back up to our example steps above:

  1. Roll your dice
  2. Compare with Ballistic Skill Characteristic
  3. If equal or greater, it’s a hit
  4. If less than the Ballistic Skill Characteristic value, it’s a miss
  5. If the “natural” die roll is a 1, it is a miss
  6. Gather up all dice that are misses and re-roll them (Re-Roll Step)
  7. Compare with Ballistic Skill Characteristic
  8. If equal or greater, it’s a hit
  9. If less than the Ballistic Skill Characteristic value, it’s a miss
  10. If the “natural” die roll is a 1, it is a miss
  11. Go on to Wounding steps

Example: A Dark Angels unit is shooting at a target. They have a BS of +3 and have 5 shots. They get a 1,1,2,3,5. That means they only hit with two shots. Fortunately they are within 6″ of Azrael so they get to re-roll those 3 misses. On the 3 dice, they get a 2,3,4. Now they have 4 hits total and Azrael is pleased with their shooting. Still with me? Please note, Re-rolls only happen once – you can’t re-roll a re-roll.

Adding in Modifiers

We’re going to now add Modifiers to the step without Re-rolls so you can see the order of operations FIRST. In the example we’re using a Tyranid Prime:

 

Let’s look at how that interacts with the steps above:

  1. Roll your dice
  2. Compare with Ballistic Skill Characteristic
  3. If equal or greater, it’s a hit
  4. If less than the Ballistic Skill Characteristic value, it’s a miss
  5. Apply *Modifiers (Negative and Positive) – Modifier Step
  6. Re-check all dice rolls for hits/misses
  7. If equal or greater, it’s a hit
  8. If less than the Ballistic Skill Characteristic value, it’s a miss
  9. If the “natural” die roll is a 1, it is a miss
  10. Go on to Wounding Steps

* Keep in mind that when you apply modifiers those are added (or subtracted) from all the dice. The exception is that a “natural” 1 is always a failure. Note there is nothing about natural 6 is always a success however.

Example: In this example our Tyranid Warriors are shooting at a target. They have a BS of 4+ normally. Lets say they are shooting with 3 shots and roll a 2, 3, and 5. Now, looking at the steps above we can tell that currently they only hit once. Let’s add in the +1 to the hit rolls from the Tyranid Prime:

  • 2+1=3
  • 3+1=4
  • 5+1=6

Now we have 2 hits. Remember, the +1 is added to the hit ROLL not to the BS stat. It modifies the physical die roll number. That means if you rolled a 6 on the die, and you had a +1 on the roll you just rolled a 7! Also remember: 1’s always fail!

Mixing Re-Rolls with Modifiers

Let’s take’em both and get faded!

I’ve got two examples to lay out. First, let’s say we have those same Warriors with the Prime nearby and for some other reason they get a re-roll for their misses. That means they are re-roll misses and getting a +1 to their to hit rolls.

  1. Roll your dice
  2. Compare with Ballistic Skill Characteristic
  3. If equal or greater, it’s a hit
  4. If less than the Ballistic Skill Characteristic value, it’s a miss
  5. If the “natural” die roll is a 1, it is a miss
  6. Gather up all dice that are misses and re-roll them – (Re-Roll Step)
  7. Compare with Ballistic Skill Characteristic
  8. Apply *Modifiers (Negative and Positive) – Modifier Step
  9. Re-check all dice rolls for hits/misses
    1. If equal or greater, it’s a hit
    2. If less than the Ballistic Skill Characteristic value, it’s a miss
  10. If the “natural” die roll is a 1, it is a miss
  11. Go on to Wounding Steps

Example: Our Tyranid Warriors are shooting at a target. They have a BS of 4+ normally. Lets say they are shooting with 3 shots and roll a 2, 3, and 5. Remember: Re-Rolls happen BEFORE modifiers. So they pick up the 2 and the 3 and re-roll. They get a 6,3.

  • 6+1=7
  • 3+1=4
  • 5+1=6

 

If their guns had an ability that said “something happens when you roll a 6+ to hit” then that means the natural die roll of a 5 would become a 6 and trigger that ability. That also means the natural roll of a 6 would become a 7 and also trigger that ability.

When Things Get Weird

In our playing we came across an interesting thing that happens: What happens when you get a negative modifier, like when you are shooting a heavy weapon on the move?

Example: You have a Dark Angel with a Lascannon. His BS is +3. He moved this turn and has a -1 modifier. He rolls a 3 on the die. What happens?

  • 3-1=2

Clearly a miss. Okay, now let’s mix in the re-roll from Azrael with that. What happens?

He misses.

“But you didn’t tell us what the re-roll was!? What did he roll?”

He doesn’t get a re-roll. Check the steps again: Re-Rolls happen BEFORE modifiers are applied. He rolled a 3 on the die which equals his BS of +3, which is a hit. At the Re-Roll step, it’s still a hit, so you don’t get a re-roll. However, at the modifier step it changes with a -1 modifier, converting it to a 2 which is a miss.

Welcome to Warhammer 40,000 8th Edition.

 

Hopefully that clears things up. If not, you’ll be able to read it all for yourself when the Rulebook drops tomorrow. And check your datasheets for any exceptions!

 

  • Walter Vining

    staples

  • Mr.Gold

    nice breakdown of rerolls & modifiers, always nice to see an actual article rather than a podcast.

    • euansmith

      Yeah, spoken word is for Beat poetry.

    • blackbloodshaman

      Does he say where the rule is saying you can’t re roll a “hit”?

      • eMtoN

        It’s inline with the rule granting the reroll. Some say reroll anything. Others only say reroll misses.

  • mgdavey

    Don’t be stupid. In order to determine a hit or miss you need to apply the modifier.

    • uatu13

      He’s not really being stupid, that’s how the rules work now unfortunately.

      • Karru

        He might not be, but the players are if they do it like that. As the Re-roll rule states:

        “Some rules allow you to re-roll a dice roll, which means you get to roll some or all of the dice again.”

        The keyword here is “some”. Unless specifically stated by the re-roll rule, you can choose which dice you re-roll.

        Let’s look at the Azrael rule:

        “You can re-roll failed to hit rolls for friendly Dark Angels units that are within 6″ of Azrael.”

        So rule as written, let’s say I roll 5 dice and need a 3+ to-hit. I get +1 modifier from something, so now I should need a 2+. Now, I roll 2, 1, 3, 5, 6. So with the current ruling, I failed twice because modifiers haven’t been added yet and won’t be added until I re-roll.

        Now, I just choose to re-roll the “1” die. Nothing, absolutely nothing in either rule states I must re-roll ALL the failed rolls. I can just pick and choose which ones. It only specifies that I have to re-roll FAILED rolls. That 2 is still a fail, but the rule states I “CAN” re-roll it, I don’t have to if I want to. The re-roll rule states that I can re-roll some or all of the dice. I choose to re-roll some of the dice I am allowed to.

        Unfortunately, it doesn’t work the other way. If I get negative modifiers, I can’t do it like this as the rule states only failed rolls will count. Fortunately, my group does it the “smart way”, which means we count the modifiers first and then we do the rolling itself.

        • Frank Krifka

          your interpretation is correct. You aren’t “forced”to reroll any dice, so it behooves you not to reroll things that will hit after modifiers are applied.

          However, if you’re house ruling that modifiers come before re-rolls, how are handling abilities that allow you to reroll 1’s? for example, if you need a 4+ to hit and have a +1 to the roll, a natural roll of 1 will become a 2 (and thus an “unrerollable” miss).

          Are you playing that as written? I only ask because abilities that allow a unit to re-roll 1’s are far more prevalent than abilities that allow full rerolls.

          • Karru

            We make it modify the BS. So for example, if a unit gets +1 to-hit, it just means that it’s BS is now 1 better. No need to do it that complicated. That also means that you don’t get the 6 effect on a 5.

          • Frank Krifka

            I’m all for house rules, but this seems like one that dominos into affecting how powerful some buffing units are on the tabletop.

            When units have effect that proc on a 6, the +1 to hit causing the effect to proc on a 5 is a fairly powerful buff. A +1 to hit on a weapon that does mortal wounds on a 6 is a pretty powerful ability in and of itself, but a +1 to hit increases the likelihood of the effect procing by almost 20%.

            I would also think that the points cost for these buffing units is calculated based on the original rule design. I also know from precedent in AoS that the use of characters/abilties in this manner is a fairly important component of building an army.

            I dunno, it seems like a small change that can actually have a fairly large impact on how the game plays.

          • Charon

            If you do this, you are completely missing the point. It is designed to make rerolls and modifiers different, both valid and interact different with triggering special abilities.

          • Jeremy Larson

            The problem with this is that modifiers to the dice roll allow certain abilities to trigger more often, which GW has said is intentional. So if you have an effect that triggers on a 6+, and you have a +1 modifier, then that ability triggers on a dice roll of a 5.

          • mgdavey

            “….if you need a 4+ to hit and have a +1 to the roll, a natural roll of 1 will become a 2 ”

            A “natural” roll means unmodified. That’s why they specify it.

          • Frank Krifka

            They don’t specify “natural 1” do they? All the rule quoted above simply say “a roll of 1 always fails regardless of modifiers”. That means abilities that add +1 to hit can’t be used to turn rolls of 1 into rolls of 4+ (since rolls of 1 always fail regardless of modifiers).

            However what I am referring to here isn’t if modifiers can turn a failed roll of 1 into a success, it’s that adding modifiers before rerolls (instead of after) means that abilities that allow to rerolls 1’s essentially become useless if the unit in question gain a +1 hit buff.

            it just seem kind of odd to change the rules in a manner that causes one buff to make another buff useless. I could understand how a hex could cancel out a corresponding buff ( +1 to hit and -1 to hit on the same target is essentially a wash) but two buffs?

            Just seems misguided to change a rather innocuous rule in a way that affects how buffing units work in the broader game.

          • Charon

            No. It is just the “1” is never a success, not matter if it becomes a 2 after modifiers.
            That also means you can not die from overcharge if you have a +1 modifier as you never roll less than 2 (which still fails as a1 was rolled before modifiers)

          • Frank Krifka

            That’s what I thought. It works pretty much exactly the same in AoS.

        • Fergie0044

          Your ‘smart way’ may not be so smart. Simpler and more user friendly certainly, but what if GW specifically wrote the special rules to function like this? You could be radically changing the power of modifiers and re-rolls in your game.
          Not a criticism, just an observation.

          • Karru

            Considering that GW has stated that his edition “should be simpler and easier to understand”, I consider the way we do it the smarter one as it is in basically every way simpler and easier to manage than the one it currently is.

        • Interesting. It actually never appeared to me that I don’t need to re-roll something that would hit after applying modifiers. Thanks for that enlightenment.

      • mgdavey

        The rules do not explicitly spell out the sequence above. In order to determine a hit, you need to apply modifiers. That’s all you need to know to figure out what to do.

        • Charon

          No. The rules explicitly mention re-rolls happen BEFORE you apply modifiers.

        • highwind

          The rules are pretty clear about what is a “failed to hit roll”:

          “If the roll is equal to or greater than the attacking model’s
          Ballistic Skill characteristic, then it scores a hit with the weapon it
          is using.If not, the attack fails”

          so if you roll equal to your BS you did NOT fail that roll and the only reason you didnt hit was the modifier which -as the reroll rule states equally clearly- is ignored when determing what you can reroll and what not

          it might be counterintuitive but it is 100% clear

          • mgdavey

            It is 100 clear that they are referring to the modified die roll. If you logic was applied to that rule, a shooter w BS 4 who must take a -1 would hit on a four. And that’s clearly not the case. The rule you are quoting clearly applies to the modified hit roll.

    • Rhellion

      Incorrect. Those are the rules.

      • Matt Razincka

        But, RAW, you GET to re-roll some or all. It doesn’t say you can’t re-roll a success.

        • Commissar Molotov

          Azrael’s ability says to “re-roll FAILED hit rolls.”

          • Matt Razincka

            Yup. If specified and clarified in the specific rule, that is a different case.

          • mgdavey

            Therefore you need to apply the modifier before you decide to re-roll.

          • EvilCheesypoof

            But you can’t reroll after a modifier.

          • mgdavey

            Where is the rule that says this?

          • Andreas Noche

            Above, as Rerolls must be made before a modifier is applied

          • EvilCheesypoof

            The reroll rules that say rerolls happen before modifiers. On the page that has the psychic phase there is a side rule in italics talking about rerolls.

          • EvilCheesypoof

            And today GW comfirned “Re-rolls always happen before modifiers, so the re-roll
            ability is triggered before applying modifiers.” https://17890-presscdn-0-51-pagely.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/06/Warhammer_40000_Designers_Commentary-ENG.pdf

          • Mr.Gold

            Whereas Cawl’s rule is “Reroll any to hit rolls”…

          • ihardlyknow

            I feel like this needs to be more prominently posted.

            Cawl can decide his buds didn’t like rolling sixes if he wants since its “hit rolls” and never mentions success or failure.

      • mgdavey

        Please cite the rule that says you determine hits before you apply modifiers.

        • Andreas Noche

          Definition of a hit:If the roll is equal or greater…
          Definition of a rereoll; Before modifiers are applied

          How can you modify and reroll without violating that rule?

        • Jeff Biery

          It’s in the fourth image of the article. “Rerolls happen before modifiers (if any) are applied”.

          If you’re trying to find it in the rulebook, it’s on page 178 in the top left margin.

  • Commissar Molotov

    Gah, that’s gonna be hard to remember.

  • Donovan Palmer

    How absolutely counter to common sense… Oh well if this doesn’t get FAQ’ed i’ll probably just house rule it to all trigger simultaneously. Tough luck for the tournament players out there.

    • orionburn

      Yeah…not a fan of this and will take getting used to. With all the split fire it will make it all the harder in the beginning keeping track of things. I suppose in time it’ll become second nature.

    • Jason

      Gw won’t change this reroll mechanic. It’s been this way in age if sigmar for awhile. If it wasn’t supposed to be this way, AoS would have been changed awhile back.

      • Graymantle

        What specifically are you referring to in the AoS rules? I’ve never seen anything that specifies rerolls must come before modifiers, aside from the “2nd Rule of One,” which is simply long-form for saying “natural ones always fail.”

        • Jason

          It’s on page 1 of the basic rules. middle column, right before it gets into The Battlefield. It states:
          “You can never re-roll a dice more than once, and re-rolls happen before modifiers to the roll (if any) are applied.”

  • AnomanderRake

    See, this would be much more straightforward if GW were to just write a one-sentence definition of “natural roll” (“the number shown on the die, no modifiers”) and then word all the rerolls as “reroll natural 1s”.

    • adamharry

      Re-rolling misses is more powerful than just re-rolling ones. Different abilities to different things.
      Check the datasheets for specifics but there are too many examples to list.

  • Shenanigator

    Surely this is just an oversight.

  • Brian Brodeur

    This doesnt make sense to me. You would think he would get the reroll in the last example :/

  • Mr.Gold

    if shooting heavy plasma (cannons etc.) at flyers after moving – beware don’t overcharge them, -2 to hit (probably, due to heavy weapons & flyer etc) that you can not reroll meaning your plasma dude will blow himself up 50% of the time…

    • Charon

      Not really. “On a hit roll of 1, the bearer is slain”.
      1 – 2 = -1 -> not a 1
      2 – 2 = 0 -> not a 1
      3 – 2 = 1 -> dead

      The difference is on the opposite thingls like Death to the false emperor
      “each time you roll a hit roll of 6+…”
      Lets assume prescience for a +1

      roll a 4 +1 = 5 -> nope
      roll a 5 + 1 = 6 -> triggers
      roll a 6 +1 = 7 triggers as it is a 6+

      • Fergie0044

        Unless this is like last edition where you can’t have a lower roll than 1? In which case 1-2=1 and your plasma guy is dead. I don’t have the rules so I’m just spitballing here.

        • Charon

          There is no such rule. There is a rule that stats can not be modified below 1 (such as “your opponent reduces its attacks by 1), so you never reach zero.
          But there is no rule about rolls. These can range as high or low as modifiers allow them.

          • Fergie0044

            Ah right, fair enough.

          • Maronui

            https://17890-presscdn-0-51-pagely.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/06/Warhammer_40000_Designers_Commentary-ENG.pdf

            Third question.
            “If, after all modifiers have been applied, a dice
            roll would be less than 1, count that result as a 1.”

            So yes that plasma guy is dead most of the time if he starts shooting at flyers.

          • Charon

            The text was before the FAQ and the rules did not say anything about it.
            After the FAQ, yes, you can’t get below 1.
            On the other hand even the people here who are always unlucky when trying to think have the intended mechanic black&white.

          • Maronui

            Ah ok, did not know that you knew the FAQ. Just wanted to help. But btw. I don’t get the last sentence of your post.
            I’m no native speaker.

          • Viper666.Qc

            Plasma weaponry tend to overheat when positioned vertically….

      • Fergie0044

        The new 8th Ed FAQ has cleared this up. A roll can never be less than a 1.

  • So the less likely you are to hit the more a reroll help you?

  • MelonNeko

    A lot of people seem to dislike this order of operations. I’m just chiming in as someone who likes how this works and am thankful for this post to explain to people, because most people probably won’t notices the change.

    • Definitely going to be a source of tables flipped and rules-rage this weekend.

    • xxvaderxx

      the problem is not the order, is the rules consistency.
      There are ability that allow you to re roll misses, attacks are neither hits nor misses until AFTER modifiers are applied.
      The -1 to hit example here is stupid, the modifier is not to the stat but to the die result.

    • mgdavey

      The problem is that this order is just made up. Nowhere does it say that modifiers applied after a shot is determined to be a hit or not. And any attempt to read that into the rules makes them inconsistent.

      • ZeeLobby

        Yurp

      • Andreas Noche

        How is it made up? It clearly states to make the reroll before modifiers apply? If this is not an order, than what is?

  • xxvaderxx

    There is a big consistency ISSUE with the rules.
    Shots are neither miss nor hit BEFORE modifiers are applied. If we were to take RAW, and we get a skill that says “re roll misses” and on the other side you get a “-1 to hit”.
    You only get a HIT or a MISS AFTER the modifier is a applied, NOT before, this 2 rules are in conflict with each other.

  • Jimi Steele

    Very clearly RAW vs RAI. When they say re-rolls happen before modifiers, they likely mean that a natural 1 could still be rerolled as a 1, even if it had a +1 (becoming a 2).

    • EvilCheesypoof

      But there’s nothing vague about it, you can’t assume their full intentions when the rule is written clearly. Rerolls always happen before modifiers. There’s no flexibility with that in any way. It would be a pretty large mistake/typo if they meant anything else.

      Your example is correct, and so are the other scenarios in this article.

      • sean nelson

        I disagree. I read it as you refill specific results on the door before modifiers. So you reroll natural ones or sixes or whatever. But hits and misses you reroll after.

        In my opinion this is clearly what they intended. As written can be interpreted a few ways as this thread shows

        • Charon

          It is not, they even mentioned it quite a few times on their stream and in Frontlines stream.
          You roll your dice, check if it would be a hit or miss according to your required hit roll. then you reroll and AFTER that you apply the modifiers.
          So if oyu are allowed to re roll misses and hit on a 3+ while the enemy gives you a -1

          You roll your dice, score a 1 2 3 4 5 6.
          1,2 are misses -> you re-roll. The rest is hits.
          You score another 3 and a 4, ending up with
          1 2 33 44 5 6.
          Now the venom applies the modifier so your final score is
          0 1 22 33 4 5 -> 4 hits, go on with 4 damage rolls.

        • EvilCheesypoof

          The reroll rule is clear, and the way rerolling works when modifiers are applied is spelled out in the reroll rules. I do think it would be helpful for them to have an official order of operations laid out for people to understand it better, but this article lays out exactly how it works, as it’s also the same in Age of Sigmar.

  • AircoolUK

    Soooo… Looks to me like, if there’s re-rolls and modifiers involved;

    1. Roll to hit.
    2. Any rolls that are less than the models BS can be re-rolled.
    3. Re-roll any dice that are less than the models BS.
    4. Add/subtract modifiers.
    5. Any results (post modification) that are equal to or greater than the models BS are a hit.

    So, if you have a BS of 3+ and for whatever reason, you get a +1 modifier to hit, you’re still going to want to re-roll anything with a 2 because it’s a miss. You can’t just leave it and then apply the modifier because it was a ‘miss’ in the first place. You don’t get to add the +1 modifier to the ‘2’ result after the re-roll because it was a miss to begin with.

    Sounds fine to me.

    • mgdavey

      According to that theory, then modifiers wouldn’t matter because the Hit rule simply states that greater or equal to shooter BS hits. If a rule says you can re-roll misses, it must mean that you determine hits before you decide to re-roll.

      • Charon

        The rules are 100% clear about this. Roll to hit -> reroll -> apply modifiers. It is written black and white and confirmed on their stream multiple times. It is also exactly the same mechanic as in AoS.

        • ZeeLobby

          Yup. Still weird as balls imo.

          • Charon

            Actually I really like this particular design.
            It is quite different from before buuuuut….
            Both stats have a value and their own merits. None of them becomes overwhelming and together they suffer a dimishing returns and dont pile up too hard.
            Also it allows to hit modifiers to interact with special rules very different from rerolls
            When rolling it allows you to do the math after you got all your final results.

  • Randy Randalman

    Well laid out. I was hoping you’d cover the part about rolls happening against the BS before the -1 modifier for moving with a heavy weapon. Frontline covered that with Devastators near Guilliman. If they move, a 3 is the worst thing they can roll as it doesn’t trigger re-rolls.

    It isn’t vague, or confusing, or going to be FAQ’d. For the first time, GW explicitly laid out the order of operations while also minimizing the ability for blanket re-rolls to basically allow heavy weapons to always hit and be too good.

    • EvilCheesypoof

      Yeah, but people are still confused and in denial about it, they could use a strict chart of order of operations like this article has in an FAQ to reiterate how the rules work.

    • ZeeLobby

      Randy Randalman calls GW rules flawless. No one is shocked.

      • Diagoras

        I’m certainly shocked. Randy’s usually so critical of GW at every turn.

        I promise I typed that with a straight face.

  • Randy Randalman

    Well laid out. I was hoping you’d cover the part about rolls happening against the BS before the -1 modifier for moving with a heavy weapon. Frontline covered that with Devastators near Guilliman. If they move, a 3 is the worst thing they can roll as it doesn’t trigger re-rolls.

    It isn’t vague, or confusing, or going to be FAQ’d. For the first time, GW explicitly laid out the order of operations while also minimizing the ability for blanket re-rolls to basically allow heavy weapons to always hit and be too good.

  • Matt Halkos

    I think the example for tyranids is wrong. The -1 to hit for moving and firing a heavy weapon would affect the BS. Normally BS3+ minus 1 for moving and firing heavy would mean you hit on a 4+. I wouldn’t think to play it that you subtract from the actual rolls

    • Charon

      No, you apply the modifier to the roll. This also results in special effects trigger on a lower roll or not at all (+1 to hit would allow the tesla rule to trigger on a 5+ as it is a 6 after modifiers, while a -1 would completely prevent the rule from triggering.)

      • Matt Halkos

        Yes but wouldnt RAW be +1 to hit =+1 to what you need to hit not +1 to your hit roll.

        • Charon

          No RAW and RAI is identical. IT was mentioned more than once on their stream and on frontline gamings stream (playtesters)
          It literally is a modifier to the dice, not to the stat. So a 5 with a +1 modifier triggers tesla as it becomes a 6. This is also why it is 6+ in most cases, which covers rolls of 7 and above too.

        • Charon

          No. Because the abilities tell you exactly what to do.
          “You may add +1 to the hit roll” menas you roll to hit and add +1. It is not “you may add +1 to your weapon skill”
          There are also abilities that modify your statsm but these explicitly say so (add +1 to Leadership for example).
          Also the rule is identical to AoS and even if there were any doubts the mention of “this trigger on a roll of 6+” is a dead giveaway as you need to modify your dice roll to get past 6.

          • Heinz Fiction

            Yes, the rules are very clear, that you add the modifier to your role and not to the target value as we used to (although this would have been a lot easier).

  • markdawg

    Uggh WFT that is some real garbage rules.

  • blackbloodshaman

    Where does it say you cannot reroll a hit, i.e you have a 3+ you moved so you know you need a 4, you rolled a three before mods are applied, but its a hit, according to the article it says you can’t reroll because it’s not yet a miss, but I don’t see a rule saying you can’t reroll a “hit”

    • Matt Halkos

      Yeah they are thinking wrong in my opinion, it’s minus 1 to hit from the initial BS, NOT the roll to hit. So 3+ becomes 4+, NOT roll 3s -1 so 2s miss

      • highwind

        No, they arent thinking wrong… the rules for the modifiers (heavy weapon after moving, smokelauncher, etc) clearly state that they modify the hit roll, not the BS.

  • Thalandor

    That is f*cked up and not intuitive. It just feels wrong!

  • Heinz Fiction

    I’m not really convinced that the above sequence is RAW. I think the rules contradict themselves at the point where re-rolls and modifiers both come into play, and the article tries to get around this problem with mere assumptions.

    In order to re-roll failed hits, I first need to check which rolls missed and for that I need to apply modifiers which i can’t because i have to do the re-rolls first, which I can’t because I first need to apply modifiers to check which rolls misses, which I can’t… I computer program would probably give out an error at that point.

    Anything else is speculation until the autor clarifies what he had in mind.

    • Thomas Gilchrist

      no, you roll and if it meets or exceeds the BS on the stat sheet it is a hit. If it is less it is a miss. Then after rerolls are taken you apply modifiers. This can then make what was a hit into a miss, or what was a miss into a hit.

      • Heinz Fiction

        Your first sentence is correct, as you cite the rule book. Everything else is your own interpretation. The rules don’t state that you double check for success multiple times or that succesful hits are “turned” into misses”. On the contrary, they suggest (but also don’t state explicitly) that a “roll” is the result of your die plus any modifiers.

  • Nathaniel Wright

    Jesus why was this so confusing for people.

    • eMtoN

      Inertia. Quite a few old timer players won’t read the rules in detail. Instead they are going to skip over a bunch of stuff they think they already know. Then argue about it until someone actually shoves the book in their face to show them exactly what it says.

  • Fergie0044

    Will this be like previous editions with some rules stating you MAY re-roll misses and others stating you MUST re-roll misses? Could be important if it forces you to re-roll a miss that you know will be a hit once modifiers are applied.

    • Charon

      Depends on the ability. It is always right in the text. Some “must” others “may”.

  • Fergie0044

    Looking through the comments I think people need to stop treating this as a new edition of 40K and rather as brand new game. Bring as few preconceived notions from 7th as possible and instead read the rules from start to finish in detail like you would for a new game you’re not familiar with. Then come to your conclusions.

  • It’s not a “+3” ever, it’s a “3+”. Adam, you’re actually playing this game?

  • Gunther Clone C

    Wow…this makes me sad. If you’re aware about negative modifiers on your shooting models at all, then you look at the current hits before modifiers and are immediately saddened because you cannot re-roll them even though you know they will fail when the modifier hits.
    However, this makes me think of it in a more “fluff” idea. Your shooter is 100 percent SURE that he/she/it hit the target, but it turns out that wasn’t the case due to some unforeseen intervention.

    • Maronui

      I was thinking along the same lines. A good example are the camo cloaks of some units that substract 1 from the to hit roll.

      A marine next to Guilliman hits the target (rolled a 3, so can’t re re-roll because it’s technically a hit before applying re-rolls). Then he switches to a different threat despite Guilliman yelling in his ear, that he should check again (Guilliman knows best) while the eldar ranger is laughing until his stomach hurts because the marine didn’t listen to Guilliman.

      Yeah I really like that picture. 😉

      • Gunther Clone C

        I think you may have misunderstood me, I mean more along the lines of disbelief that he missed…like “It’s still standing?! HOW?! I KNOW I hit it! I’m certain!”

  • mgdavey

    I guess I was wrong. Rereading rules and looking at discussions it appears they intend to make re-rolls less powerful via this rule. As written the rules still are very contradictory: they should have written “may reroll unmodified results lower than BS/WS”instead of “may reroll misses”. Also makes rerolls to Morale potentially confusing.

  • AircoolUK

    Well, at least GW have cleared this one up now, and the above is correct. Re-rolls are taken before any modifiers 🙂

  • EvilCheesypoof

    This article is 100% correct and has been confirmed by GW. https://17890-presscdn-0-51-pagely.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/06/Warhammer_40000_Designers_Commentary-ENG.pdf Rerolls always happen before modifiers.

    • mgdavey

      When you read their example however, it does not use the confusing case. They use and example of a model that re-rolls 1’s. And they demonstrate that a two cannot be modified into a 1 for purposes of the rule. (FWIW I don’t think anybody ever thought they did). But they don’t use the example of shots being modified to being a miss for a model that re-rolls misses. Not saying it doesn’t work the same way, just that they could have explained the case that some of us are having trouble understanding.

      • EvilCheesypoof

        I agree that they could have explained the controversial example to clear things up for people, but what they have confirmed is that rerolls always happen before modifiers, which means the strange example in this article MUST be correct.

        • mgdavey

          Agreed

  • majbjörn

    How I hope this is not true….

    This is 8th editions biggest DansGame by far.. so far…..