Goatboy’s 40k: First 8th Game Thoughts

Goatboy here again and I got my first game of 8th is last Thursday against some Tyranids. Just how good is it?

I had a lot of fun, stuff died a lot, and I felt like the game played very cleanly, quickly, and fun.  That is the big thing I got from the new edition was that it felt good.  It felt like how my first game of AOS after the Matched points game.  I only had one real question in the game due to how we thought about the older editions, but looking at the walk through got it figured out.  For those wondering – it was about the consolidation part of the fight phase and if you consolidated after finishing your units fighting.  The answer is yes – which means you can get within an inch of other units and cause some multi assault issues.

First Impressions

The big things I noticed with this edition is that it is very fast, very aggressive, and players who control the movement phase will win more then static armies.  I really think this edition pushes movement over the other games as you can’t just sit there and pound the enemy with your bullets.  You need to move, get involved, take over objectives, and hopefully win the game.  The removal of templates, pulling wounds from anywhere in the unit, and just overall brutality of assault/moral means the better moving and placement player should come out ahead.  It’s a good thing too as while the game is full of “combos” this isn’t a game of oops I won because I got the perfect set of rolls.  This is a game where you have to get all your machine parts to work together and efficiently deal with your opponent.

Biggest Winners

Any army that needed some love to be competitive in 7th edition is a winner.  Orks feel like they should.  You can either go into a mob mentality and bring the Gork side of your Waaagh out.  They have a lot of amazing characters, amazing auras, and just an overall synergistic vibe that the army needed.  You can even fulfill your Mork side of things as there are a ton of sneaky stuff in the book too.  Kommandos sneaking up the sidelines and burnering your opponent with “free burnas”.  Heck you can even create a decent Kan Wall army full of robots, Klaws, and pissed off Grots left to clean up the mess.

Necrons feel really strong too and looks like their Identity has come back to the front.  They feel a heck of a lot more fluffy with their Reanimation protocols as well as relying on their “leaders” to actually lead them with their Auras.  They also have some tricky stuff to bring to the table with some nutty first turn assaults, great speed bumps with Scarabs, and even some really powerful shooting.  They took some of the things they lost from 6th to 7th edition, brought them more in line with their fluff, and added some future hints with the Dynasty Keyword showing up in their states.

Vehicles seem to have gotten a lot better as the switch to a wound characters gives them a lot more survivability as well as the shift towards the cool abilities MC had.  They shoot 360 degrees, can fire a lot of weaponry, do some decent damage, and no longer fear the brown noise that is the Grav Cannon nearly as much.  I still want to make a massed Maulerfiend army as well and I am just waiting on what actually comes out from FW and any upcoming “fixed” codex releases.

I really like the detachment set up with a lot of options to create any type of army.  It also has some locks in army building for matched play with everyone needing some kind of “faction keyword” to allow them in the army.  This keeps some weird things from popping up and still let’s GW build “alliances” and other things for the future.  Overall there is a ton of good here and very little “bad”.

The Command Points are interesting and a powerful one is the ability to allow one of your units to “fight” first before your opponents other chargers.  My test game had me pull the trick on my opponent to try and kill 2 Carnifexes with a Dreadnought and he pulled it on me to get his massed blob of Genestealers to go right after Typhus swung.  I had to swing with Typhus to keep him alive and so my opponent crushed my poor Pox Walkers with massed Genestealer claws.  Genestealers are no joke now and Nids seem to be set up to do very well in this new edition.

The “Issues”

Speaking of Bad the things that bother me is that there is a lot of lost flavor in the Psychic phase.  There are some really strong spells – but it feels like we could have had more.  The limited spell options as well means that the most common spell is going to be a movement/assault out of turn spell and massed smites.  I think those bits lists are going to be more annoying then good – but there could be more.  The missing Chapter Tactics/Legions/Clans/Dynasty’s are annoying as I feel Marines and CSM need a bit of flavor help from them.  I think Marines hurt more due to losing some of the stuff that makes them special and Chaos Space Marines finally got some but now lose them.  It does get me excited to think Orks, Necrons, and Tyranids will get some flavor along those lines as well.

There are a few typos in the books. Most of the Characters have a clause that says only one can be taken – except for one.  The Saint doesn’t have that clause so you could per RAW have a lot of the Emperor’s Personal Daemon running around.  I know these books are stop gaps and designed to get people playing and not be the finished “army” product.  Chatter is in a few months will see a slew of books come out to help fill in people’s armies.  And I do applaud GW for putting out all of this in a fairly cheap package for consumers.  It also seems FW has their books pretty cheap and it might be the first thing I buy digital due to the nature of shipping, time, and how much I want to see their rules.

Current Good Army Thoughts

Any army with decent large unit # troop/unit choices.  I think Big Units with the ability to grab multiple things in Combat will be very good.  Anything Big, Tough, and having access to good Auras will be strong.  Necron Warriors, Plague Bearers, Daemonettes, Pox Walkers (Kinda), Berzerkers, etc – will be strong.  I just think big massed bodies will cover the table, block things, and cause a lot of issues.

Characters with good movement that can hide behind units.  Chaos Space Marien Daemon Princes might have lost their Tactics and Daemon Powers – but they do have less then 10 wounds, fly, and can be set up for 7 attacks rerolling to hit (they let people of their Legion reroll 1’s and they hit on 2+’s so they will most likely smack you for 6-7 hits).  Add in the ability to have Smite and most likely a decent extra power like the double move one and you got yourself a stellar monster character.  I get the feeling a large Thunder Wolf Army utilizing the Cover Spell from Rune Priests to give massed super doggies a 2+ armor save will be a big pain in the butt.

Cheap Imperial and Chaos keyword troops will be especially powerful.  I can see a lot of “battalions” for Chaos filled with Nurglings and a big blood of X Daemons.  I am betting Sisters of Battle might show up in a lot of Imperial armies as they get access to more guns and other interesting options.

There will be a lot of 3 Knight plus small X units.  The Current thing is Magnus and 3 Renegade Knights.  I think Knights are ok and most of the time those types of armies find it hard to win the mission.  Scarabs are going to be mean at eating them and anything else that can get in their way and just be a pain in the butt.  I want to test some 3 Knight builds but think we can look at some Massed troops and other options instead of dumping a ton of Points into Magnus.  There will also be 8 Daemon Prince builds as well but again a block of Stealers, Zerkers, etc can catch them as Fly doesn’t let you not get assaulted.  It just lets you get out of combat so you can shoot again.

Right now I am pretty dang excited with the ATC being my first 8th event.  It will be the Wild Wild West with everyone trying different things and the meta just starting to set up.  Of course whatever works there will most likely shift again as new books and pieces come out.  I just expect it to be a lot of fun with weird stuff and the chance to play all kinds of armies.

~How have you liked the new books?  Do you think your army will stay decent?

  • James Hall

    This all sounds great to me. Might have to dust the Orks off and take them for a spin.

    • KingAceNumber1

      my first game of 8th was against Orks, and I can confirm they are absolutely terrifying, and better yet, super fluffy. A regular old 30 boy squad can and will roll over almost anything that isn’t a super heavy they come in contact with, and Orks have a lot of ways to deliver units to melee now. You won’t be disappointed.

  • Karru

    I really have to disagree with your comment regarding vehicles. In my opinion, their survivability went down. I have played 2 games now, yes a whooping 2, one 1000pts game and one 2000pts and in both I have seen the same thing happen.

    First turn, Infantry moves forward alongside Transports, while fire support tanks remain still. Then, the vehicles fire their weapons at something. If it has blasts, it does nothing or very little. If it has fixed shots, damage depends on what it has. Predator kills tanks very well with the Predator Autocannon + 2 Lascannons + Hunter-killer Missile combo. Something like a Punisher has a hard time making up its points.

    Then comes the fun bit. After vehicles have fired, Infantry starts shooting at each other, but uses their Heavy Weapons to fire at vehicles. Missile Launcher here, a Lascannon there, pop goes the weasel left and right. Vehicles are crippled and killed fast, because taking those Heavy Weapons in units now is not that “risky” because you can take them off last if nothing else. Vehicles aren’t that survivable in the grand scheme of things, because they usually have between 6-8 Toughness. Meanwhile a good chunk of multi-damage weapons range from 5-9 Strength. The best part? These weapons wound a Russ on a 5+ minimum. That 3+ save doesn’t really hold up that well when you realise that for one vehicle, the opponent has 2-3 Infantry Squads with heavy weapons that have AP -2 or -3. The funny thing is that those Infantry are much more effective and possess better damage potential since the casualties are taken however the defender wants. That means that, unlike the Tank fired at, the unit doesn’t lose its “damage potential” as the special weapons, the guns that make up most of the units damage potential, are removed lasts. So a unit of 10 Guardsmen needs to suffer 10 wounds before the Heavy Weapon stops firing. Meanwhile, a Leman Russ only takes 6 wounds and it can’t hit anything.

    I currently have a hard time justifying any vehicle, outside maybe transports. First I thought that Sentinels and other cheap light vehicles might be good, but the sheer amount of multi-wound weapons in the game makes it pretty much impossible to use effectively. You no longer can do the old “flood the board with different targets so the enemy has to pick his targets and let others through” tactic. I shoot my Missile Launcher at the target with multiple wounds while everything else shoots at the enemy Infantry.

    Tanks are super expensive now, which is the core of the problem. My Guard army can take 7 Lascannon/Missile Launchers Heavy Weapons teams for the price of one Leman Russ Battle Tank with Heavy Bolters. The difference is that those Lascannons are better at AT/Monster hunting role than the Battle Tank. They are also more survivable, as they are two different squads, so one Missile Launcher can never cripple it with one shot, at best that Missile Launcher kills a single base per shot. Meanwhile the Russ has potential to be reduced to utter uselessness with one shot from any weapon that causes D6 wounds.

    My conclusion for my Guard is currently this; Ignore Vehicles, Put all points to Infantry. Take Brigade Detachment, tons and tons of Company Commanders, Heavy Weapons Teams, Special Weapons Teams and Infantry Squads with heavy weapons. Your army is now more flexible, mobile and survivable. Your only disadvantage is that you should never expect to get the first turn, but I found that it doesn’t really effect the game that much any more because Alpha Strike is gone. Infantry is much harder to kill now compared to before, thanks to the lack of AP in most basic weapons and the removal of blasts/templates.

    • Snord

      An interesting and well-expressed response. Thanks. As a tread-head, I’m particularly focused on how vehicles work in this edition. I was pleased to hear that Orks may be strong again, but am less happy if my Ork vehicles are going to be vaporised by turn 2.

      • benn grimm

        Green tide with lots of buff auras seems to be strongest atm. The stompa is ridiculous…

      • Karru

        I haven’t had the chance to test my Orks out yet in this edition, but things aren’t looking particularly good for them in the Vehicle department. Their vehicles are priced around the same as everyone else’s, such as the Trukk costing 82pts minimum, they have worse saves all around. Guard and SM vehicles from example have 3+ save pretty much standard. Orks have a 4+ save. That means a Lascannon goes right through, Autocannons give them a 5+ save.

        Orks seem to be focused on the same thing as Guard as well. Infantry and more Infantry. While slightly annoying that it is the only viable option really, their infantry is extremely strong now.

        • AEZ

          I must say after AoS I don’t think it’s intentional. Anyway if you take 200 points of anti tank weapons it means against infantry armies you will have some points which are less effective. That means that if people (like you) switch to more infantry armies (which seems more fluffy so it’s a think we should be happy about) these weapons might be dropped and thus vehicles might become more viable then.
          This is ofcourse an optimistic (but not unrealistic) scenario. Worst case: GW will have to adjust the points after a year.

          • Karru

            The problem is that people still need multi-wound weapons in their army. Lascannons and other “heavy AT” weapons, while they might be overkill against targets with 3 wounds for example, they are still pretty cheap considering. If nothing else, I can see people just switching to Missile Launchers. They have one less AP and Strength, but can fire Frag Missiles for Anti-infantry. If nothing else, I can see people switching to Autocannons, which will still shred vehicles and Infantry alike.

            I don’t see people switching away from heavy multi-wound weapons though. You still need them to take down Characters. Also, the price really isn’t the main problem of vehicles, it is mostly they usefulness overall. As I mentioned, even a Punisher has a hard time justifying his existence, and he has 20 Strength 5 shots and 9 Strength 5 AP -1 shots.

            They need to make tanks more useful in some ways. Personally, right now I might just improve their saves for starters. +1 to save all around. That could help them a bit.

          • ZeeLobby

            Yeah. No one is going to drop AT heavy weapons. Especially in an environment where you aren’t tailoring your lists for your opponent ahead of time.

          • Crevab

            Maybe if next balance update they don’t use variable damage. Like a Lascannon does a straight 3 or maybe 4 wounds.

          • ZeeLobby

            One could only hope. But then they’d have to figure out what they’re actually worth in points… Instead of just saying well, they do 1-6 so as long as it’s in that ballpark.

          • Karru

            Here’s what I would do:

            First of all, drop the price of vehicles a bit. Around 25% would be a good start.

            Next, I would increase their save. As I mentioned, +1 to saves as a base would do just fine.

            Finally, I would give them less “punishing” damage chart. What I mean by this is mostly that, instead of the tank becoming pretty much useless in terms of shooting, I would make it weaker. For example, they could lower the toughness and save of the vehicle, alongside its movement. This way, the tank is still fully operational shooting-wise until it dies.

            Of course, these sound fine on paper, I would have to properly test these changes out before I would even consider adding them to the main game as something permanent.

            The big thing that would increase the effectiveness of tanks as well would be a blast change. A good amount of Tanks are now blasts, which makes them a lot less useful. That should change first, in my opinion.

          • Maitre Lord Ironfist

            Maybe, but no to the +1 to saves.

            it would watter down the range if everything is 2+, since 2+ atm is seldom I only kno the LR to have one.

            i might agree on +1 Toughness isntead, but i will Test tomorrow, jsut a smal game. I will bring my landraider and see what he does now. – Aside from using him as a suicide bomb

          • Fergie0044

            Nothing wrong with the LH having a 1+ save. Can only be hurt be AP weapons.

          • KingAceNumber1

            Technically, a 1 always fails. 1+ saves just protect you from a point of AP.

          • AEZ

            Yeah I must say it’s what I feared a bit. (now let me explain what I feared).

            I actually don’t think the save of the tanks is the problem.2+/3+ saves are nice. The problem is the seer number of different weapons 40K has and that made them give all sort of stats including rend all over the place. There is just way to much rend. In AoS there is a nice balance between having less wounds for points but high armor (monsters) and lower saves but more wounds (baseline infantry) vs the availability of rend (rend 1 being available but not everywhere and rend 2 being pretty rare and higher hardly existent. If there is very high rend available it just means wounds are way better than having lower wounds and a high save.

      • MelonNeko

        As an alternate. We played about 1000 points of Orks vs dark eldar and no vehicles died. Although pretty much all my poor bon-vehicle dark eldar died

        • Tomoyuki Tanaka

          My own alternative as well. I played a 50 power rating game with my opponent. I used 49 power points worth of Imperial Knights (Knight Warden and Knight Paladin) against his 50 points of Genestealer Cultists.

          I absolutely destroyed him. By the end of my second turn, my Knight Paladin had maybe 17 wounds left (most of which were taken off by a Cultist Leman Russ Vanquisher) and my Knight Warden had 23 wounds left, and my opponent only had a single Patriarch left on the table, having lost 2 squads of Neophyte hybrids, a unit of 20 purestrain Genestealers, a flying Hive Tyrant, a Mawloc and the Cultist Leman Russ Vanquisher. And mind you, the Leman Russ Vanquisher was the most durable, and was the last one to die, having tanked all the ranged shots from my Knight Paladin.

    • euansmith

      It sounds like GW wants to sell a lot of infantry kits this edition.

      • Karru

        With the detachment being what they are and the way Characters have been done, that would be the most logical conclusion.

        • BT

          GW would make more off of someone buying 30 Ork Boyz ($87) than a Trukk ($37.25). 30 Boyz also cost more than 10 Boyz and a Trukk. And Trukks were always a throw away vehicle to boot, so go figure.

          Sounds like to play a decent force of Orks takes about $300-$500.

      • Moonsaves

        Primaries Marines don’t have transports yet, right?. Hmmm.

    • Heinz Fiction

      I also don’t have the impression that vehicles are tougher. Sure, they don’t explode on the first lucky hit, but if you cont how many lascannon hits you need to strip their wounds it’s not too different from previous editions. Plus there are a lot more low and medium stregth weapons able to wound them.

      • Spacefrisian

        Meanwhile hellhounds and banewolves have improved, i guess alot of Chimeras will be changed because of that.

        • Karru

          They are at the edge in my opinion. 101pts for the Hellhound and 96pts for a Bane Wolf is nice, but they are still easy to cripple and do very little damage in the grand scheme of things. D6 hits is quite low, considering that they need to be very close to their targets before they can do damage at all. Usually by this point they are either dead or crippled to the point where they can get a maximum of one shot off before they are finished off.

          Still, that price is very nice and Guard need Fast Attack choices in the Brigade detachment.

          • BT

            What Rough Riders are for… Heck, can I dust mine off? Are they any good?

          • Karru

            They are monstrous now, at least in my opinion.

            Basic Guard stat line, except they have 2 wounds each, 10″ of movement and 10pts a piece. Hunting Lances are Strength 5 on the charge, AP -2 and D3 damage.

            Two models can be equipped with special weapons and the sergeant can have the basic special weapons, Plasma Pistol or a Power Weapon.

            They have Flanking Manoeuvres special rule. They can appear within 7″ of a battlefield edge of your choice and more than 9″ away from any enemy model at the end of any of your movement phases.

          • BT

            YAY! I just thank God I don’t have the hideous Hun Rough Riders and have honest to God cool looking Rogue Trader Rough Riders. Guess I know what I will have in /my/ fast attack slots. Well, need to get the books next weekend.

          • BT

            Are the Lances one shot weapons?

          • Karru

            Nope. They are only usable on the turn they charge though. You can still use them again if you charge someone else later on.

          • BT

            Ohhhhh! Awesome! Thanks!

    • Shinnentai

      Only GW could make a game in which infantry are more mobile than vehicles XD

      • Karru

        The problem with Vehicles and their “lacking mobility” is the fact that most Tank weapons are Heavy. Most tanks in the game suffer from the same “-1 to shooting with heavy weapons if you move” thing, which means they really can’t move if you wish to fire with them, especially those with Blast weapons, because then you definitely cannot hit the broadside of a barn from the inside.

        • Mr.Gold

          Maybe for the next update vehicles ignore the -1 to hit unless they move more than 6″ (not their move value but their actual move).

          • Christopher2004

            Turret weapons coukd get a primary weapon rule and ignore the -1

          • Muninwing

            like the Leman Russ has?

    • Hussein Alobaidi

      2 is an insufficient number of games played to make any conclusions.

      Play more, try more things then we shall see how it pans out.

      Happy gaming.

      • Karru

        I know this, but I have also seen other games being played and it seems to happen every time. Vehicles do very little while Infantry does much better.

        It’s currently more the case of that I have a hard time justifying using vehicles. From what I’ve seen, the price of vehicles just doesn’t make them worth it over Infantry.

        • KingAceNumber1

          Its incredibly interesting to me to read your impressions of 8th. You’re clearly an intelligent and logical individual, but most of your personal experience has be completely different to my own. I have also played 2 games (AdMech v Orks, AdMech v DE) and the durability and firepower offered by my Onager Dunecrawlers is just dandy… although perhaps that’s due to AM having repair out the wazoo. I’ll be playing tonight against my buddy’s mech Eldar, so I’ll have a better idea after that of how vehicles perform overall. I will say I have been consistently surprised by the usefulness and staying power of cheapo middle of the road vehicles like Ironstrider Ballistarii, for 225 pts you get 3x T6 6W vehicles with 4 autocannon shots each and a 10″ move. Generally one or two die over the course of the game but they’ve been quite useful for me as a flanking and harassment unit. I know you play Guard, have you tried out Sentinels in the same role yet?

          • Karru

            That’s what I’ve been doing, or at least attempting to do, with my Armoured Sentinels. Since they basically made them worse than Scout Sentinels, I might just switch over to them. Sentinels being Toughness 5 with 6 wounds makes them pretty poor at surviving any sort of damage, because even Lasgun fire damages them on a 5+.

            In both games, I’ve lost at least one of the Sentinels on turn one, while the second one has died too that turn or the next alongside the remaining Sentinel.

            I can see why Ad Mech vehicles would be strong. One of the things you pointed out was the fact that they have repairs available in great numbers, the other is the fact that your guys are rocking a 3+ BS.

            Also, my opinion on vehicles is also based mostly on the fact that Infantry is just so insanely cheap compared to Vehicles and Infantry doesn’t have to worry about losing major damage potential as they get damages, because that potential is with their Special Weapons.

            A unit of 10 Guardsmen with no upgrades costs 40pts. My configuration of a Grenade Launcher, Vox and a Missile Launcher is 70pts.

            A Leman Russ Battle Tank at the cheapest is Punisher with a single Heavy Bolter and that is 160pts. I can take 40 Guardsmen with no upgrades for the price of one Russ. Those 40 Guardsmen also happen to be more durable, as that is 40 wounds that need to be removed before they are completely gone and they aren’t affected by multi-wound weapons.

            Also, those Infantry Squads can be used to gain more detachments. You can spam them and command points, or you can take vehicles that add very little into your army. I’m sure that my opinion on tanks might be slightly warped because I play Guard whose Infantry got stupidly powerful while their tanks got a lot weaker. As most Guard vehicles are Blast based, it makes them almost useless thanks to that 4+ BS.

            Predator has been nice, but after seeing one die in two different games to a combination of just random missiles from Infantry Squads and 3 Lascannons without it looking like the Predator could do anything to stop it, it just makes me sad to know it costed almost 200pts.

          • Muninwing

            “Those 40 Guardsmen also happen to be more durable, as that is 40 wounds that need to be removed before they are completely gone and they aren’t affected by multi-wound weapons.”

            each turn they are hit and take wounds, they lose effectiveness. take eight wounds and lose 20% of your shooting. then take a test and potentially lose more.

            if you’re complaining about a Predator getting taken down by “random missiles from infantry squads and 3 lascannons without it looking like the Predator could do anything to stop it” — how is this different from 3rd-7th? three las and at least two missiles, against a Pred? that would probably have killed it in any other edition.

          • Karru

            Yes, but the difference is this:

            My Infantry Squads were also shooting at other targets. Since I can now freely pick my targets, I can shoot with my 8 Guardsmen towards the enemy Infantry, while my Heavy Weapon Squad can shoot at enemy Vehicles. Before, I would have to choose between shooting at a Vehicle and “wasting” my remaining shots, or shooting the Infantry which my Lasguns could damage.

            Part of the issue is the fact that Infantry can now shoot at different targets. That means you no longer have “wasted shots” while your important weapons are also protected. A Predator that loses 6 wounds now hits on a 4+. That is quite significant, especially if it has to move in order to shoot anyone.

            I’d like to also remind you that I only disagree with the comment that Vehicles are more durable now than they were before. To me at least, I see little change thus far. They die at the same pace or even faster in some cases while also getting disabled faster. For example, my Armoured Sentinels would 8/10 games see the end of the game without losing a single hullpoint. That AV12 protected them a ton against most enemy fire, now their Toughness 5 and 6 wounds just mean that they die as soon as someone looks at them.

          • Muninwing

            i guess i’m just noticing that vehicles were never terribly durable… then again i played a HUGE number of games of 4th, and anything is more durable than a rhino in 4th… or a raider, like i fielded frequently…

        • Muninwing

          I wonder if this differs because of your local players. in your meta, perhaps vehicles are considered better targets? also, infantry is less worried about… so use vehicles as distractions to get your infantry into position. use how you know the game is played by the people you know who play it in order to play around them.

          it may be different elsewhere, if the players are not used to loading up on heavy weapons. facing Knight lists, wraithknights, etc. could have swelled the ranks of anti-armor weapons that your locals bring and use, which they would be bringing now because they have them.

          back when i played my Deathwing most consistently, i would careen the Dreadnoughts right up the middle and off to one side. on the opposite side, i’d have a small unit of terminators with a CML poised to shoot. they would have to choose: split the front to confront the decoy unit, or let it rain krak rockets down on their units. focus on the Dreadnoughts coming down the middle, or focus on getting their own units into place. for a counteroffensive. it was hilarious. because each decision had a next-move from me that could keep them reacting to me instead of acting on their own. other people thought Dreads were useless. if they hit the line, they tore a hole in it. if they were shot at, then my terminators weren’t. win/win for me.

          vehicles are kinda like that.

          they explode. they crash. they got immobilized or one-shotted or up-the-tailpipe ambushed in every edition until now. they were bigger targets, so they were threats.

          if they aren’t anymore, we will see anti-armor reduce. then, suddenly, tanks will be more useful again.

          • Karru

            I talked about this with another person here, but I still doubt that we’ll see people reducing the number of Heavy Weapons in their lists, at least not until they are made much more expensive. Your opponent can still bring multi-wound models with high saves and characters. You want to have those multi-wound weapons with high AP during those times.

            Especially with Guard. A Lascannon base is 24pts. Your Heavy Weapons are so cheap that there is little reason not to take them in larger numbers. They also happen to be your only high AP that you need in order to fight anyone properly. Since Elite section is filled with your Support Characters, your high AP weapons have to be placed in the Heavy Weapon Squads.

          • BT

            I still do not know why, for the life of me, GW can not wrap the idea of ‘Vet’ vehicles in IG. If you can have ‘Vet’ infantry, why can you not have ‘Vet’ Vehicles for more points, so you do get that BS 4. Hey, maybe it will still die to a bunch of shots, but if you do shoot, you will probably hit something.

          • Karru

            Yeah, I mean, it wouldn’t be too difficult to give your Tank Commander the ability to take additional Tanks which all get BS 3+ instead.

    • Nameless

      I was really saddened to see that sentinel’s didn’t have anything to prevent the -1 for moving and firing a heavy weapon (the only kind of weapon they have access too). so we have a fast scout unit, that suffers if it moves? seems kind of counter intuitive.

      how did you find the infantry platoon’s each being a troops choice? makes me sort of glad I never got round to getting the 15 I needed for the emperor’s shield formation

      • Spacefrisian

        Its not just them, gear that previously had lore on them that stated they weren’t hindered by moving now also have a minus to hit, eg Eldar weapon platforms.

      • Karru

        Part of me likes the way they work now, but part of me doesn’t. The big thing I like about it is the fact that I can more easily fill the minimum slots of a Brigade detachment, since Heavy Weapons Squads are Heavy Support. I didn’t like the fact that only Troops now available for Guard are Infantry Squads and Conscripts, as both are at least 10 strong, which means you need at least 30 models for your standard troops in the Battalion detachment, 60 in the Brigade.

        Thing I like the least about the split is Special Weapons Squads and Platoon Commanders. Both now take up an Elite slot and the Platoon Commander is just a worse Company Commander. You are much better off by taking Company Commanders and just ignore the Platoon Commanders. That 10pts difference means very little in the grand scheme of things as you get an extra order out of it.

        Too many of the critical units of Guard now take up Elite slots, so you are forced to take Vanguard detachments if you want to have enough supporting elements, such as Commissars and Veterans.

        • Your description of the guard codex has me very worried about what the renegades army will look like now (since it appears to use the Guard list as its base) :/

    • Muninwing

      it sounds like vehicles are going to need to play with space… use sight-blocking cover, move and maneuver, note ranges and firing lanes of certain units, etc.

      • Karru

        More I look at it, the more I realise that the problem might not be as universal as I might have first believed. As I have only played with Guard against Marines, I have noticed that vehicles have been quite bad for me and against me. As far as I am aware, not all armies can spam Lascannon and Missile Launchers in such large numbers and so spread out like Guard can.

        Also, Guard Tanks rely on Blasts more than they do on fixed shots weapons. Since Guard is BS 4+ mostly, it makes many of their vehicles basically worthless in most battlefield roles compared to their massed Infantry.

        There is also the fact that Guard vehicles suffer greatly from moving and in this edition, static lines lose games. You need to be on the move constantly and Guard vehicles are still only BS 4+ which is reduced to 5+ after moving. You are much better off with Infantry. Heavy Weapon Teams make up the backline fire support while Infantry and Special Weapons Squads move forward, “supported” by Commissars and Ogryns/Bullgryns. Ratlings kill off pesky enemy characters while your Company Commanders shout orders to your units.

      • BT

        Like last edition? 😛

        • Muninwing

          i won a round 3 tournament game once because i used my vehicles to block the movement of my opponent… putting one more tank directly in his way and hampering his ability to access part of the board.

          it was hilarious. three times he destroyed my primary weapon, and in turn i wheeled that tank out into his face. or put myself directly in the way of his needed charge. or blocked LoS to a valuable tank with a cheap one.

          of course i had plenty of them to spare… it was an Armored Company list, so i had 30 infantry and all the rest of my points were in armor.

    • Maitre Lord Ironfist

      Tanks can shoot the top mounted weapon while Moving – it is specific on the Rulepage [but yes, the points are high as snoop dog]

      Normal Infantry got Ld 7 (Sarge) – if you kill 3, it is likly that 1 more will die. The more you kill the better. And there can not be a commisar behind every unit. 78P for 10 Guys + Commissar + HB [fairly Cheap] – But still, they do not realy hit much, they are not mobile if 1 Commissar is babysitting 3 Squats [al least]. And if he needs more Commisars there might go 150 – 300P of Commissars. Thats crazy x) Why not buy 2 Squats of Ratlings and snipe the Commissar? And stay moving.

      you are right on the points. But after some though there might be something wrong on the way you play.

      on the sentinels you are on the spot.They lack the rule for heavy Weapons. If it only was for Multilasers and Heavy Bolters at least. Anyway. maybe i am wrong and you are right, i wil see lateron

      • Karru

        There are two major advantages that Infantry enjoys of Vehicles.

        First is the fact that they are “harder to kill” in this edition. Because basic weapons lost their AP, you Guardsmen are getting at least a 5+ save just being there, stick them in cover and you have a 4+ save. Most of the game, your Infantry units are taking non-rapid fire, which usually means 5-10 shot volleys. That usually leads to around 1-3 dead Guardsmen per volley, most likely less if in cover.

        The big thing to note here is this; most multi-damage weapons are weapons that had high AP in the pasts. They also happen to have a low number of shots. Shooting a Lascannon or a Missile Launcher at an Infantry unit is a waste. In the past, you were lucky if you even got a glance out of your shot, as even a Strength 8 shot from a Krak Misslie needed a 6 to pen a AV14 vehicle and it couldn’t even destroy it.

        Now, those random missiles from infantry wound those tanks on a 3+ to 4+ on average and reduce the enemy save from 3+ to 5+. After that, they do D6 damage. Best part? You are no longer wasting the remaining unit’s shots by doing that.

        Second is purely the amount of targets. A Tank is one target, while usually you can get around 2-3 Squads of infantry for the price. Not only does those Infantry Squads give you much better coverage, they also make it harder for your enemy to kill them all during the game. They cannot hope for a “lucky” Lascannon hit that does 6 wounds on the target and cripple them, that Lascannon kills one guy from the unit. Your opponent can’t just shoot a couple of Krak Missiles at them, while shooting at your other Infantry with his remaining unit and kill half of them. Nope, at best they kill one guy per shot. Meanwhile a Tank can be crippled by 2-3 Missiles with almost certainty.

        Tanks have very little means to protect themselves. They have a harder time getting Cover saves, which in some cases hardly matter thanks to the fact that the weapons fired at them have AP -2, -3 or even -4. Supporting your Tanks is also very expensive and not that “rewarding”. Sticking a Techpriest or a Techmarine next to your Tank only heals it D3 per turn. Considering that in my experience Tanks suffer around 6-8 wounds per turn, repairing the damage doesn’t do much, as the odds of getting out of crippled is low.

        • Maitre Lord Ironfist

          true points. Sadly i can not test it myself, since i mostly play infantry. Maybe we see some solution in the future.

          and yes, heavy weapon on normal infantry is a waste. Except it is high elite stuff, Like Terminators, Paladins etc. But i ask myself if those tanks are good against big targets like Nids. Sadly never played agaisnt them. Shouldn`t a ton of heavy multidmg Guns take down a Carnifex in one round of shooting?

          • Karru

            Heavy Weapons on Infantry, even non-elite ones, is not a waste. There a few things to note, first of all, movement is counted on a model basis. If your Heavy Weapon didn’t move, it doesn’t get the -1, even if everyone else moved. Secondly, those Heavy Weapons are quite cheap, 20pts for a Missile Launcher is not that high in my mind, especially considering that the opponent needs to deal 10 wound to your unit in order to kill it (8 Guardsmen and 2 wounds on the Team).

            My Infantry Squads are wrecking vehicles left and right thanks to those Missile Launchers. Chances of hitting increase dramatically once you have enough of them.

    • Sunshine Dragon

      Had a Speeder, just one, in my first game against Tau. The Speeder, the Emperor’s Champion and the only other vehicle, a drop pod survived. And that was the pod getting ignored so the Speeder could get pounded with plas and pulse, lost 3/6 wounds lol (T6, 3+ sv btw)

  • euansmith

    Man, are we still banging on about 8th Edition?! When’s the next new thing coming out? I want my Generals’ Handbook 2, by Sigmar!

    • Nyyppä

      I heard that 9th edition is coming soon.

      • AEZ

        Hmm I heard 9th age is failing mostly these days.. but that might be just in my region.
        I’m waiting for GHB2 myself.

        • ZeeLobby

          I think he was joking about 9th edition 40K.

          • Crevab

            You think he’s going to let a chance to make a jab at a GW competitor slip by? 😉

        • Nyyppä

          Erm…..ok?

      • Blackfel

        In keeping with the Imperium’s naming conventions, GW should skip 9th edition and go straight to 10th edition with no mention of 9th at all.

        • Graham Bartram

          Warhammer 40,000 Edition X. We need to go over to Roman Numerals once we get to ten, because design reasons.

          • Fergie0044

            Xtreme edition!

        • Spacefrisian

          I think i spotted a mk9 power armour, the powerfist guy in the last metal veteran marine box. The model has what seems to be a set of armour that fits between 8 and 10.

  • benn grimm

    Daemons just became boring as heck, same with CSM, on the other hand DE and Orks saw a big improvement(comparatively), so swings n roundabouts so far.

    • ZeeLobby

      Yeah. My one long-time daemon playing friend is starting 8th with necrons instead. He just has no interest in the new daemon rules, and their slide towards a horde army. Add to that the LoC having more wounds than a GUO and he just wasn’t feeling them. He plays necrons tho so he was gonna try them out.

      • wibbling

        Daemons should be a horde. However, you chum is obviously not stretching his legs.

        • ZeeLobby

          Lol. Oh wibbling. Daemons have never been a horde army. At least not competitively. They’ve always been elite. That’s maybe not how they were ever meant to be, but it’s how they’ve been written. And when you play an elite army for 3 editions it’s sad to see that edge removed.

          I really have to wonder if wibbling ever plays GW games.

      • benn grimm

        Yeah, not a fan of how they’ve done the greater daemons particularly at all. Theyve kinda been a horde army since 6th, but they were interesting, now not so much. But I’ll still play em in HH. Crons look strong, back to the old ‘we’ll be back’ by the look of it.

        • ZeeLobby

          Yeah… Kind of. I mean lists are still dominated by flying DPs or GDs, screamerstar and hounds. The only time infantry ever hit the table was to capture objectives, or tie things up. Dunno how hordelike that is. But in local meta I’m sure people ran hordes. I just look at true horde armies like Orks, Tyranids and IG, and daemon armies never looked like that. Probably cause the infantry was over costed to be honest.

          But yeah. They lost a lot of their flavor for sure. I’m sure they’ll get it back with books eventually. But that’s a wait.

          • benn grimm

            I guess what I meant was they had that option. They had lots of options; which was why I liked em so much. I’ve seen large model count/herald spam daemon armies do work, though I can see why people avoid taking them to tourneys.

            I’ve decided to just work on a project while I wait for a daemon book; feral Orks, always fancied having a proper bash at it. Da boyz are nice again in numbers and with the way vehicle stats are now pretty much the same as monster stats, I can have a bit of fun with counts as. Big Dino battle wagon? Big spider battle wagon? Woolly mammoth looted wagon? Maybe a looted pyrovore? Yeah, that sounds fun 🙂

          • ZeeLobby

            Haha, yeah. I mean for the things that have been dulled, there’s other stuff thats simply playable again, so I can’t complain that much. If my OP Tau are down a notch, but my DE are playable again, I’m on board. I still think wyches will be pretty poor, which is too bad as they’re my favorite DE unit. Oh well, I’m sure a year from now things will be a lot better balanced.

          • benn grimm

            For sure and tbh as far as balance goes I want to get games in, no idea at the mo. How have you found the new edition so far, playing wise?

          • ZeeLobby

            So we had planned on doing 1K round-robbin in our group of 4 this past saturday. Instead we played Descent, WMH and just discussed 40K. I’m sure i’ll get a game in this week, to make a better opinion. Just looking through our factions, there’s some pretty glaring imbalances, but that’s kind of what we expected. I won’t finalize that comment until we play though a couple times though. If anything it’s more like they took the 7th power chart, set it down on the table, and then flipped the table over, righting it and putting units back down randomly. That said, after being maligned constantly with the OP-edness of my Tau, I’m fine with being less of a power house in this edition. At the same time I wish they’d made certain units better, as there’s still some internal balance issues which limit what to play.

            That’s just the first glance. This is all heavily IMO. And I’ll have a better idea after this week/weekend when I play some actual games.

          • benn grimm

            Cool, I look forward to hearing how you find it.

    • wibbling

      In what way are Daemons boring? We’ve got faster, with, in most cases, more attacks. Gone are the endless charts. Horrors now have a shooting attack and they are, in general more consistent.

      • benn grimm

        Loss of customization, differentiation, that sort of thing. Lots of similar stats, lots of similar ability. Fateweaver is tougher than a GUO, which is very strange. The psychic powers are dull as ditch water. I won’t miss the warpstorm table and I like how they did horrors/summoning etc but atm it feels very stop gap and I’ll be sticking to using them in HH till they get their own book in 8th.

        • thereturnofsuppuppers

          We might see something similar to the latest AoS battletomes with lots of magic items, spells and other stuff.

          • benn grimm

            I’m confident they’ll expand it soon. Atm it feels quite a bit like 3rd ed when they also redid all the armies at once and everything felt a little bland.

      • The charts were really fun though, I’d much rather have a random chart I don’t have to roll on (since you can just take the etherblade or god specific weapon) than literally no options

    • Ugh daemons are so freaking boring now, no options, no flavor, i haven’t even been ranting about it because after I got done reading CSM and picked my jaw up off the floor, I couldn’t bring myself to dive in and fully digest how much had been striped from daemons, haha

      • benn grimm

        Feel your pain dude..)

  • Crevab

    It feels weird that every character except sergeants are now their own units. Gonna need those extra elite slots

    • Karru

      It’s also very annoying. Snipers are a must in this edition. Vindicare for any Imperial Army is an auto-include in my book, unless I have “better” alternatives. Tellion with 10 Sniper Scouts next to him makes sure that no medium to low save character lives to see the next turn.

      • AEZ

        Well.. in AoS sniper aren’t even needed. Cover, LoS denial, staying out of range and killing archers first are the way to go there 😀 (ofc there is usually less shooting there).

  • Crablezworth

    I have yet to have it adequately explained to me how being able to kill an entire unit in which you can only see and are only in range to a single model is a good thing to put back in the game…

    • Karru

      Well, considering that it would require that the weapon fired at them would wipe the entire unit in a single volley. For example, if I fired a unit of Tactical Marines against a unit from which I can see only one model and I shoot my Plasma Gun at them, my opponent can just remove that one model and suddenly the remaining Bolters cannot shoot at them. You do each weapon one at a time. You don’t pool everything.

      Both you and your opponent have to consider things. Order in which you fire and which models should one take away.

      • Crispy

        You pick which weapons you want to fire at the unit and then you go through and allocate the dmg, so in your example the bolters would still hit the unseen models if you selected all weapons to fire into that unit.

        • Karru

          The interpretation within the book is a bit off in my opinion. It states that you pick the target which has to be within LoS and range of the weapon(s) of the unit. After that, you resolve attacks. From here comes the “can be allocated to a model that is out of range and sight” thing. I know that it is somewhat “clear” that the way it works is the one you mentioned.

          Personally, I do it like I said in the comment above. You pick each weapon type individually, resolve them separately and as such, you can get yourself out of range.

          • Crispy

            fair enough, I disagree, but I can see your point :).

        • 40KstillRulesTheTT

          If the player doing the shooting can only see one model, he better make all the weapons he can shoot in one go. It is an incentive to focus fire, and therefore not split fire too much (thus slowing the game down).
          It is a very good and healthy game mechanism, and infantery is very good in this edition, so this rule of “one guy only needing to be seen = whole unit can die in one go” is necessary for balance issues too.

    • SWISSchris

      If its that powerful a weapon I just imagine it as penetrating or obliterating whatever cover they are behind. One of the abstractions I am kind of ok with.

    • thereturnofsuppuppers

      It could make the game more enjoyable to play?

  • Tushan

    This made me laugh:
    “Any army that needed some love to be competitive in 7th edition is a winner.”

    Thinking about the pissed of grey knight players left with unusable character and a nerfed army where ONLY ONE psychic power of the same type can be used per army per turn and the deathwatch players who are let down thinking their armies will finally be as competitive as the others and well..same old crap.

    The one change that will be forced is blasts, they are for most part utterly worthless now.

    The game is more fun but basically now consists of massed infantry vs massed infantry because only massed infantry can kill other massed infantry (the joke that is artillery and flamers will need to be beefed up) and the hidden heavy weapons of said massed infantry kill of vehicles very fast and the i n s a n e point costs of vehicles now together with their impotency vs massed infantry mean we wont see many in the meta.

    Also, the drop pod is now extinct from competitive game play.
    It costs 3 times as much, cant deliver flamers on target nor efficient melta range on target, nor cents.
    We might see one pod here and there as an oddity in the occasional deathwatch army since the frag cannons are the only thing even remotely “takeable” in a pod.

    Another guess is that flyer transports will be VERY popular. Every deathwatch army will basically be forced to use 2-3 of them. So much for everything can be equally worth taking and used.

    • Nyyppä

      Marine pods in 8th are like other pods in other editions -> marine pods are extinct. Well, I guess that marine pods were broken before….

      • mrbleak

        Drop pods allow you to deploy less units which gives you a higher chance of going first + what they already do + heavy weapons can be fired after moving so they are not as useless as you might think.

        • Nyyppä

          Apparently not. You have to “deploy” them outside of the board.

        • Spacefrisian

          Stil it requires an extra 20 euros to have a Dreadnought ride in it, and thats a Forgeworld order, so a bit harder to come by.

          That brings the index count to7.

        • Karru

          The problem I have with Pods now is the fact that they really have no real use in the army any more. As Tushan mentioned, it can no longer deliver units such as Sternguard within Melta/Flamer range of any important target, so they have very little use.

          Assault Marines can already do the thing Pods do and do not need that extra 105pts tax to do it. All Jump Packers have this rules as well.

          Terminators have this rule and have weapons that are more destructive at short ranges than any Sternguard unit could now be.

          No reason to place units such as Devastators there either, because you are better off with their long range weapons rather than those with shorter range.

          Transports, such as the Rhino, are cheaper than the Pod and can be used beyond the delivery. They can Charge the enemy and they don’t make up a perfect “shield” for the enemy Assault units. A Pod can be charged in order to avoid shooting from the enemy. It cannot move, thus it can never Fall Back. With a proper Assault unit, you can easily kill it in exactly two rounds of combat, so you can freely continue your rampage.

          One final note about them is the fact that brining anything close enough is hard these days. More and more people are noticing that massed infantry is the way to go, so bubble wrapping with cheap units is a favoured tactic. Overall, Pods are very much going extinct right now.

      • Tushan

        Pods in 7th at last made for risky game play and strategy, you could drop them and flame or melta the enemy and chance that it was enough for you to survive the next turn.

        You could even deepstrike cents with them.

        Now they cant do anything of the above and cost 3 times as much. You basically pay 100+ points to give a footslogging weak unit a very nerfed deepstrike.

        • Nyyppä

          Sorry to see you do not agree with the loss of your cheese. The pods do what they did in the past, just not so well that it’s broken.

          • Tushan

            So you lack the understanding of what the cheese was and still berate me? Amazing.

            The cheese was never the drop pod but the grav cannons and melta they deployed and the one formation that allowed heavy weapons to fire after being podded.

            The cheese was never the pod and if you are so deluded that you believe dropping a flamer or two from a pod and grilling 10 orks with them on deepstrike was cheesy then I hope you start growing a brain after you pass 12 years of age.

          • Maitre Lord Ironfist

            Grav combined with Free droppots.
            Dunno if they are to expensive, my armies can not take them

          • Tushan

            Since when were drop pods free?

          • Maitre Lord Ironfist

            played against it.
            Opponent wich i trust, got 4 Droppots for free. But it had some tax. But still, that mobility and field denial is what other armies miss. The worse the lower tier your Army was.

          • Nyyppä

            The cheese was more often than not a combination of things. Grav is not cheese against spawn, but stern guard with grav in a pod was cheese against many things.

            Just so that when you start feeling uppity next time you get to thinking about what you are going to say before you open your mouth.

            Just saying.

          • Tushan

            Just saying?

            When it comes from someone who cant even realize grav-sterns are NOT the same as they were in 7th and thus the said pod that you for some mysterious reason keep claiming is cheesy is null and void.

            Your own “uppity” assumptions that I want to keep my cheese is equally infantile since all I said was the pods of 8th are severely overpriced and no where did I mention anything about wanting grav cheese back in my pods.

            Stop clinging to imaginary straws and maybe you can learn to reply after de facto reading what I wrote and why instead of inventing reasons to support your own claims.

            ..before you open your mouth the next time that is.

          • Nyyppä

            Stop lying, please, you are embarrassing yourself. I did not claim that sternguard was anything at all in 8th. I gave no opinion on 8th edition grav either.

            Well, you whine about not having the most broken transport the game has ever seen anymore. Am I supposed to interpret that in a way that despite your whines it’s ok to you? If it’s not then my “uppity assumption” is still correct. In that case what seems to be the problem?

            De facto pods with the combination of other things were broken. They would be broken in this edition too if they worked the way you want them to work. Instead of getting an automatically successful assault and flamer range, which are the things you whine for not getting, you now pay the points for getting better deployment options for things that can not otherwise “deep strike”. Oh god, it’s like…..it’s almost it would be balanced. How can you live with that?!?

    • Karru

      I share your impression of 8th as well on the Infantry, Vehicle and Blast department. Infantry is extremely strong, because their arch-nemesis is gone, blasts, while Vehicles are more vulnerable to Infantry than vice versa. Since blasts now need to roll to-hit as well, it makes them very weak and reduces their effectiveness greatly. Meanwhile, Vehicles become much weaker as they get damaged. Infantry on the other hand does not begin to lose its effectiveness in any meaningful way, until the special and heavy weapons start to drop.

      • Sweetcurse

        Well, losing amountnof shots is sort of meaningful. Infantry units DO become less effective. You lose wounds and attacks and field position.

  • James Mcclennan

    I notice that nowhere it is written about fire arcs any more? So if I can see a model from my model I can shoot it??? 360?

    • Even if the tip of your land raider is poking out of the edge of a building it can fire all its sponsons at a target that it draws a line too!

      The problem with over simplification of a rule set is stupid exceptions like this,

      • Crispy

        Well I mean the tank could be pivoting about, one way to explain it away in your mind :).

        • Shinnentai

          A basic tenet of miniatures gaming is that what you see on the tabletop represents the situation in the game – and a big part of that is how models and terrain are interacting. Otherwise we may as well be playing boardgames with cardboard chits!

          This kind of stuff feels like it’ll be really counter-intuitive to me, although not such a problem if you’re playing friendly games and just house-rule the stupidity away I guess.

          • Simplifying the game mechanics to some extent is a good thing but there is a basic physical component to the game where logic should dictate if something is possible or not

            A simple sentence like los is drawn from the weapon would have solved these issues,

          • Chet Atkinson

            I think that’s how I would play it.

      • Chet Atkinson

        Does the weapon not need to draw a LOS to the target?

        • Crispy

          Not anymore, just a part of the model.

          • Maitre Lord Ironfist

            for me thats one of the biggest flaws in 8th. For me nearly everything is fine or better then 7th [ok thats not hard] – But that with vehicle Weapons >.< Thats stupid.

        • Karru

          No. The model has to draw LoS to the target.

          “In order to target an enemy unit, a model from that unit must be within the Range of the weapon being used and visible to the shooting model.”

          • Chet Atkinson

            That’s a bit weird. So if you have some infantry to one side of a Land Raider you could fire the left and right sponsons at the infantry unit???

          • Karru

            Yep. You can also fire a Valkyries frontal Lascannon and Missiles at a target that is straight behind it.

            The best thing is that if the back of an Engine from a Leman Russ is sticking out behind a building, you can shoot all its weapons, including the frontal sponsons, at a target that is on the other side of the wall.

          • Chet Atkinson

            Not sure whether to laugh or cry

          • Karru

            I like to do both when it comes to these things. Balances things out.

          • Chet Atkinson

            HAHAHA! 😀

          • Crablezworth

            Yup… sigh

    • Crablezworth

      Yeah it’s pretty bad, even stupider is you can kill an entire unit even if you only see and are in range to 1 of it’s models.

  • Rufus Der Eisenhans

    You write up a review of a game with Tyranids in, and yet you leave out talking about Tyranids – Can we get some feedback? We desperately needed the 8th Ed love too you know

    • Crispy

      Broodlord is pretty good for the points. Flyrant flies as fast as a walking tyrant and both are less killy then a broodlord.

      Deathleaper seems like he might be pretty cool. Bio weapons are split into monstrous and normal for the strength workings out. Genestealers as he mentions are brutal and have a 5++.

      Hormagaunts get buffs for being over 20 and consolidate and pile in 6. Termagants get a bonus to shooting when over 20.

      Instinctive behavour is just shoot/attack the closest enemy (if you choose to).

      Synapse is immunity to battleshock/morale and the ability to not have to pick the closest enemy for shooting and charging purposes

    • Karru

      Crispy gave a nice synopsis of them, if there is something you’d like to know more, I have the books and can look up things for you if you are interested.

      • Rufus Der Eisenhans

        Thanks – Ive seen the leaks and they do look interesting. I guess though that I wanted feedback as to how they played. There is a lot of speculation out there

      • thereturnofsuppuppers

        From a general flavour standpoint.

        How does it feel to play the classic Starship Troopers Tyranidshorde army in the new system?

        • Karru

          As someone who used to run a Tyranid swarm army back in 5th, but stopped, I can only speculate from what I’ve seen and observed. Also, my friend has played ‘Nids this edition and we have talked about it a bit.

          One of the things that I find interesting about it is the fact that it actually accomplishes two things. It’s very thematic and feels like a proper Tyranid army now. A mixture of smaller bugs swarming around larger beasts looks very interesting on the table. You have varied options with flanking units and the Synapse system is once again a reward system, not a punisher.

          Some larger bugs mixed in with certain support units such as Venomthropes is a good way to make a push. With a proper mix of Warriors, Hive Tyrants and Tervigons, you have a Synapse web that will have the opponent weep in despair, as your bugs will not die or fall back. You have loads of board control potential and lots of viable options.

          The army is now all about synergy. Synapse now rewards you for using it, instead of punishing you, allowing you to use flanking units such as Raveners and Lictors better. Then you have the swarm itself, which is very powerful in this edition. The army focuses around its Synapse web and support units. Overall, you are looking at an army that is no longer the utterly boring “remove a handful of models each time the enemy looks at you” and “I didn’t need that Synapse Creature anyway” mess it was in earlier edition.

          There is also the fact that, as I have mentioned before, Massed Infantry seems to be the way to go. Take lots and lots of Warriors for synapse and use Horma- and Termagaunts to swarm the enemy lines and grab objectives. Bigger bugs are still useful, but no longer are the “must-have” of the army.

  • Defenestratus

    Well that seals the deal.

    If Goatboy likes the game, that means I’ll hate it.

    With a passion.

  • Mr.Gold

    Does a Leaders “reroll 1’s to hit for faction within 6” abilities affect themselves if they also have the same faction?

    • KingAceNumber1

      Yep, auras always include the model generating them.

      • Manuel Bateman

        if they have the acording keyword (which they have most of the time)

  • Moonsaves

    I read through the Ork list and was very haooy with what I saw. Big Mek, Painboyz etc now have their Orderlies/Ammo Runts/Oilas upgraded to full-on pet status, in that they have full stats and weapons and don’t affect morale when they die. That’s already a ton of character.

    My favourite (pretty minor) change is that instead if scrapping buggies as I’d feared, Skorchas, Halftrakks and Warbuggies all have different profiles, with Warbuggies having 14″ movement and 5 wounds, and Tracks/Skorchas having 12″ movement with 6 wounds.

  • Fergie0044

    Anyone played some games with admech, death guard style chaos marines or nurgle deamons yet? I’d like to hear how they’re doing.

    • KingAceNumber1

      I’ve played my AdMech into both Orks and DE, they’re very well rounded and have a lot of ways to disseminate your big threats throughout the army. Kataphrons hit like a freight train but die if you look at them funny. Ironstrider Ballistarii are primo, for 225 pts you get 12 autocannon shots on 310″ move T6 6W bodies. Onagers with a neutron laser rip huge holes in whatever they look at, but don’t help much against infantry. Vanguard are still good, I run 2 units with plasma. Dakkastelan Robots are amazing against infantry, if you change to protector protocols the minimum squad gets 36 shots. Rust stalkers are pretty underwhelming, but Sicarian Infiltrators are still a great addition and a lot more useful in terms of grabbing objectives now that they basically deep strike. Cawl’s reroll aura and editing of the canticle randomness is definitely worth his pts, but 250 is a tough pill to swallow when you want so much other stuff.

      • Fergie0044

        Thanks! Shame about ruststalkers, they were my fav models.

  • Jose Delgado

    This edition is a big lie, gw promised us the more balanced edition ever and this edition is so umbalanced as 7th or more.

    Now we have changed eldars that are the worst army in 8th for orks and tyranis that are so broken as eldars in 7th.

    Gw only have changed the positions,with eldarstaudemons as the worst armys in 8th and orksnids as the broken umbalanceds armys

    • thereturnofsuppuppers

      Do you feel you can make such a strong statement after such a short time.

      The system would have to be tested by the players for at least a few months before we know how balanced things are.

      • Shinnentai

        Haven’t you read BOLs comments before? XD

        • Maitre Lord Ironfist

          It is allways 10/10 would burn my stuff AoS time.

          One should know after some time. And still most of them, me included, will buy stuff anyway x) Dajum

      • Shinnentai

        Haven’t you read BOLs comments before? XD

    • mrbleak

      According to Reece, Strongest army is harlequins and Scions, Tyranids are top 5. Also, Orks are tied vs Tau (sometimes win sometimes lose) and Tau are pretty good, though i think Guard is far better cause of heavy weapons teams.
      You don´t seem to know enough about the game or it´s armies currently or to have even played enough so you should refrain from making statements that only serve to enlighten your lack of knowledge.

      • Jose Delgado

        Sorry it seems to me a nid player who is mad because he think that he win in 8 due to his skills and not due to be broken.
        In some months every tournament gonna be orks vs tyranid and nobody gonna want play vs those armys in your clubs as happened with taueldar due to be imposble to win.
        So have fun whenthat happen with you so balanced army

        • KingAceNumber1

          Seems like someone lost to a horde army and is salty about it. Acquire proficiency.

        • mrbleak

          Seems to me that you just need to read the rules or learn how to make an army list, because i can see counter lists to every list. Every army seems good and every army seems to have some counters and be countered by other.
          But hey, maybe your 1 build is garbage and that is why you are salty.

        • davepak

          No, it still takes thought.
          Kill the synapse first – then notice how you kill all the hordes with battleshock.

          Killed bugs this weekend in 8th, and I even had a weak list.

    • Lord Blacksteel

      How many games have you played?

  • Dominic Pirrello

    Put 20 lascannons inside a single storm lord. In turn 1, my little brother killed every big monster on the enemy team. This was after a huge unit of genesteallers managed to get into mêlée with it and only did 14 wound.

  • MarcoT

    Ah we’re considering 3 knight lists with Magnus are we? Can’t teach an old goat new tricks it seems.
    How about non-spammy lists?

    • KingAceNumber1

      It’s actually not that good. He’ll always go first, but he has like… 8 guns total, half-ish of which will miss or roll low on number of shots, and a balanced force will definitely drop one knight a turn when they’re all that’s around to shoot.

      • davepak

        I would love to see the xenos list that will drop a knight a turn.
        not being a jerk here, being honest.

        • KingAceNumber1

          Mech Eldar can do it. My buddy runs a list with 2 autarchs and a farseer and 7 wave serpents with missile launchers and shuriken cannons. Troop choices in the transports. 14 krak missiles a turn hitting on 3’s rerolling 1’s plus all the shuriken shots. He killed my knight in one turn so I can confirm it can happen lol.

          • davepak

            That is pretty awesome, go eldar! now, tau, necron orks and nids? I did not list DE, as I know they can do it. Honestly, not every army has the same access to high str low ap weapons with the rerolls. I am NOT doubting your saying it is possible – not at all, you are speaking facts. I am doubting that this applies to multiple armies. Regardless, thank you for the response.

  • MrLodgik

    From what I saw on the internet, the only losers in the new edition are actually the space marine. They look super weak compared to their chaos and xenos counter parts. Even with the new marines, they don’t dish out crazy mortal wounds like the others, overall stat of units are pretty poor compared to the others and they don’t really have any crazy special rules. (Blood angels are really weak compared to khorn berserkers and I was really expected to be pretty similar in close combat)

    • Manuel Bateman

      dontya worry they will be the first to get a new codex.
      and if AoS tells anything compendium aka index armys will have a tough time against the new releases.

    • davepak

      Are you kidding?
      They are an amazing solid choice.

      I am giddy for my marines.
      Preds are awesome now
      Dreds are useful
      Bikes HAVE TWO WOUNDS
      We have flying marines
      The whirlwind is actually good
      Las cannons and missiles in squad get split fire
      Thunder hammers do 3 damage. 3 !!
      and many more.

      The grass is indeed always greener – I am actually painting preds and dreds – it is a good day.

  • For me the main downside is loss of options. No chaos boon table, no daemon weapons or other relics, no way to give god specific rules to units that don’t have marks built into their statline, no variety of options for lords at all, no legion rules. Frankly, it feels like an unfinished game rushed to release. I don’t pay for early access games on Steam I definitely won’t be buying the indexes. Release actually complete rules for CSM and Inquisition and we’ll talk but for now, to me, 8th ed is a beta that GW is selling as a finished product 👎

    • Muninwing

      some of that might come back once they broaden each list out…

      • Right, like I said it feels like a beta, it’s not done and you can get a feel for gameplay but it just leaves you feeling disappointed

        • Muninwing

          yeah. it does feel like a beta. or, more likely, a puppet show between acts of a play while they change the set.

    • Karru

      I think you are looking at the release a bit… wrong.

      You see, 7th had to be dealt with in a way that was possible. That meant that GW had to invalidate all the books in order for that to be successful.

      This means that in order to give everyone the chance to play the game, they had two options. Release EVERY faction their own fully fleshed out codex or this. The first one wasn’t possible by any stretch of imagination. There are just too many factions in the game and the fact that GW would have to release ALL of them a massive codex at once so that everyone could play would have been insane. Not only would the price of the books need to be massive, there would have been this lovely little problem of no realistic way of balancing points to all armies at once without having to invalidate the entire book.

      With Indexes, they can do the GHB. At the start, we get these. Once they start rolling out codices, we get updates to the indexes, which in turn might be released as one big book with nothing but the points in them. In the long run, the game, players and GW is happy.

      • Which is great in what, 2 years when the game is actually complete? For now i’d much rather not play than play with a poorly made gimped version of the CSM codex with no flavor or fun. Some people like to beta test games, I don’t. I wouldn’t accept a free copy of Index Chaos let alone pay for it lol

        • Karru

          So you would have preferred to wait for those two or possibly even three years without any substantial release for 7th until they “finished” 8th edition for you?

          • Yes, or better yet just keep releasing rules for 7th ed

  • Emanuele Di Bona

    THe game is totally and utterly S H I T. There are so many issues that I hope GW will go bankrupt as soon as it is possible.

    • davepak

      please let us know when you post your stuff on ebay.

      thanks.

  • Sybarite

    It’s a nice write up. I’m glad armies that were a bit behind get more love.

    You know, you could replace any “then” in your texts with “than” though 🙂

  • davepak

    So far looks good – except clearly there were not a lot of tau players in the testing group.
    Yeah, the tau formations were broken – we all know that.
    They are gone.
    But the rest of the tau got hit really hard with the nerf hammer.
    And I don’t mean just “riptides” – I was never a big riptide player – but the rest of the tau still paid the price for their sins.

    You are right – movement is key – and still lot of tau buffs require – you guessed it – tau to not move (looking at the command abilities and fireblades).

    Don’t get me wrong – I played tau in 5th before everyone jumped on the bandwagon – just gonna be the underdog again.

  • Bonemaw

    Tzeentch Daemons doesn’t work at all anymore after the nerf of the psychic phase. They didn’t compensate them with anything else. Just port directly over…. Such lazy rule writing

  • Joseph Winn

    After reading through the new books I have one over riding feeling. Anyone else been around since the 2nd edition to 3rd edition changeover? Third edition simplified the megaton of rules that 2nd had become. It simplified the psychic phase with each faction only having one power and a generic list to choose from. Each faction was giving a generic list to keep veterans playing and introducing newbies. It simplified things dramatically….and then came the codexes. Each faction was then fully fleshed out with expanded fluff, psychic powers, weapons etc. and the creep began. Each new codex became the “Flavor of the Month” as it was more powerful than the previous. anyone get the same feeling now?