40K 8th: ATC Tourney Meta Report & Interview

BlackBlowFly is here to talk about the spamtastic fallout from 48K 8th’s first major tournament. The results shocked EVERYONE!

Hi everyone Black Blow Fly here to stir the… errr bringing enlightenment to the filthy unwashed masses 24-7 ! Last weekend was the first major 8th edition tournament in the US – the American Team Championship (ATC) and wow what a doozy it was. Do you remember when you were just a kid and you found out the truth about ole Santa Claus… BAAAAAAWHAAAAA !!! Tears were flowing amirite ?! Well basically the same thing happened at the ATC. You see lots and lots of people were saying and even believing 8th edition is basically uncheesable*ย (see foot note before you post). But then the unimaginable happened… like almost every team was spamming the Ravenspam !!

What is Ravenspam

It is like five to six nearly unkillable Stormravens with some uber buffs (see Dante) and if it goes first well see ya wouldn’t wanna be ya!

So this week I have none other than the captain of the third place team Wobbly Modelers here as my guest – yeah you know none other than my man Kelsey Haley !

Kelsey – one heck of a dominant tournament players in the US… I equate him on the Chuck Lidel level of the competitive scene. Something very interesting to note is that his did not bring any Ravenspam and still took home their newly acquired skulls – that’s a tall order too.

A lot of people are really up in arms about the Ravenspam and want something done about it because you know… the dream is gone. I’m gonna be completely honest and say I really don’t want to see any house rules from sources external to GW. My philosophy is just let it play out to its natural course. Codices will soon be dropping left and right… things are gonna change just like they always do. GW love some change, it’s more money in the bank. If and when GW nerfs it I’m totally okay with that – they are the SOLE entity that should change rules.

Interview Time

So let’s dive into the interview with Kelsey now.

Q1) I was very impressed your team placed third overall this year ! I have played in ATC several times and consider it one of the most competitive tournaments in the country if not the most due to its unique format. Top players come from all over the country come to participate and the team format is very challenging. Could you provide a quick run down what army you and each of your team mates brought and what was your overall strategy for pairings each round ?

Sure. I ran 2 shadowswords and a stormlord with 5 commanders and 4 man plasma squads with Sergeant Harker.

Ernie ran 8 Nurgle Princes and Belakor with as many Brimstones as he could he fit into his list.

Max ran 32 missile launcher Devs with Guilliman.

Austin ran 98 purestrain genestealers, some characters and 9 armored lascannon sentinels.

Juice ran 7 Crimson Hunters and 4 Ravagers.

Our basic strategy was to figure out which lists on our opponents’ teams everybody didn’t want to play. If somebody only had one list they didn’t want to play then they often became a defender. Past that… we were winging it.

Q2) I was really impressed your team did not bring the much dreaded Ravenspam army list. What was y’alls strategy to counter this list and how did that work out for you ? Did you know going into ATC last week that you needed a solid overall strategy to counter the Ravenspam ?

We knew it would be a thing but never cared too much about it. Going into it we accepted that it was something we’d each have to play at some point. Luckily we planned on playing stormravens with multi meltas… but we only played versus heavy bolters.

As good as they are Ravens are easier to counter than GSC.

 

Q3) There is a bit of an uproar on the internet about the Ravenspam now. What is your opinion – should TOs change rules to nerf it ?

I like the idea of 0-3 of the same unit, but this early in the game I’m generally opposed to changing the rules at all.

On a side note I think Guilliman and the Yncarne need to be nerfed more than anything else.

 

Q4) Which round was your toughest and how did it go overall ?

My toughest round came versus Dallas on Quality Control. He had a pretty solid GSC list. I really only played him because nobody else wanted to. I wound up being able to hold the genestealers off long enough to scrounge up 9 points.

Q5) What was your favorite game/opponent and why ?

My favorite opponent was probably Jason from Forgeworld Columbia 2. He played a similar list, though he had extra drops. That meant I went first and took advantage early. The game ended after about 10 minutes with me maxing.

The reason I say its my favorite because Jason exemplified class during brutal defeat. He laughed and we both knew that had he siezed I would’ve been the one picking up models.

It was also my favorite because we had plenty of time for “beverages”. Haha

 

Q6) How do you like 8th edition so far compared to 7th edition ? Is it better designed for competitive play ?

I think its better designed in the sense that good lists are easier to make. Tactically it’s become easier, but its nice that more people are better able to run competitive lists well.

Finally feel free to add anything you like. ๐Ÿ˜€

I’d just like to throw shoutouts to Battlegrounds (our local store in Midlothian, VA that tolerates our drunk playtesting) and The Long War for their endless support.

The Final Balance

So there you have it… the Ravenspam can be managed in a tournament environment. Of course the ATC format is unique from other large events but at the end of the day you still have top players versus other top players. I hope that ‘The sky is falling’ mantra will drop to wayside soon. Of course there is the NOVA Open coming soon which features a more traditional format… it’ll be interesting to see what competitive players come up with to counter the Ravenspam and beat it plus there’s plenty of time to properly prepare and endless play testing.

~What do you think of Ravenspam? Big threat, or forgotten in 6 months?

 

*Footnote:ย Is uncheesable an actual word ? Of course not but it’s no big deal irregardless how much it might upset you. ๐Ÿ˜› Get over it.
  • AircoolUK

    Well, with what we’ve seen of Chapter Tactics we know that Flyers won’t benefit from them, and that’s just the tip of the iceberg regarding faction/sub faction special rules.

    FOTM is a thing and will always be a thing.

    • ShasOFish

      Why wouldn’t they? The Marine Flyers have the keyword, and the wording of the Chapter Tactics seen so far (which is either all of them, or very nearly so), uses terms like “model” or “unit,” instead of “infantry.” Seems pretty clear that it is explicitly designed to work with them.

      • Karru

        Nope. GW has said it on the WH-Community site that Chapter Tactics only affect Infantry, Bikes and Dreadnoughts.

        A quick reminder is that the rule states ” unit with this TACTIC…” which indicates that the unit needs to have some additional rule that gives it said tactic, which is most likely the Chapter Tactics rule which existed in 6th and 7th edition and was added to the Special Rules of the units capable of using them.

      • Josh Felstead

        “…like all Chapter Tactics, this will apply to your Infantry, Bikers and Dreadnoughts.”

        Read it and weep.

  • sniperjack

    For me this extreme spaming is like a nail in a coffin named 8th Edition.

    • ZeeLobby

      As soon as 6 slots of X type became an option it was pretty much guaranteed.

      • OldHat

        Jeez, never satisfied. Go play 5th! lol

        • ZeeLobby

          Lol. I mean it was much more structured back then, with a solid system built around it. You could still spam but the limit of 3 slots at least kept most lists from being soulless.

          • CloakingDonkey

            3rd edition o/ when super heavies were a privilege of the rich o/

          • ZeeLobby

            Ugh. I’d be so happy going back to the days of no fliers, GMCs or SHs.

          • zeno666

            Yes please thank you

          • CloakingDonkey

            Well, 3rd certainly wasn’t without its own problems. I remember shock armies being extremely powerful… what bugs me is the amount of flyers, knights and super heavies around these days… it’s not rare at all to see 2-3 of them in an army.

          • ZeeLobby

            A 1 limitation would be enough honestly. We have a local player who defends his Knight army to death even though no one still wants to play it. I mean I’m sorry he loves them, and they are great models, but it’s just too much. Funny enough he’s moved on to mostly other systems now.

          • CloakingDonkey

            They spread the system out too much without making clear distinctions… they should have limited all the big stuff to Apocalypse and maybe pushed that harder alongside 40K. All these big models is what drove me away in the first place. Couldn’t afford to keep up with everyone’s toys.

          • “Ugh. I’d be so happy going back to the days of no fun for my opponent.”

            Fixed.

          • ZeeLobby

            Sorry Debbie Downer but people had fun back then too, and Appocalypse was an option that allowed all these things. Sorry but it’ll be OK. You were probably having fun back then too (or your talking about something you never experienced).

    • OldHat

      Except 8th is pretty great if you don’t play in events like this. Really, the tourney scene has become the worst, but most avoidable aspect of 40k.

      • orionburn

        I agree we have to stop letting a small group of tourney abusers dictate whether the game is terrible. Can it be abused? Yes. And at my FLGS those people will quickly find that nobody will ever play them. I did have hope that tourneys might be more fun in 8th and not so prone to abuse, but so far that’s not the case. Probably won’t ever be either.

        • OldHat

          Agreed.

        • ZeeLobby

          Yeah. Which is a shame, as tournaments in other systems can be a total blast.

          • Mr.Custodes

            Except in Warmachine!

            I sure enjoy being called a cheating gaylord who doesn’t know what it means to have a friend for capitalizing on an interaction…

          • ZeeLobby

            Like all things it just depends on the area. Never heard of that happening before locally. But it is nice playing at a competitive event and calling a judge over to make a call without being told your a try hard funsucker by an opponent who moved an extra inch with everything (happened at a 40K event last year).

        • Matt C

          I so wish that store was in Virginia…..

  • Fergie0044

    Somewhat off-topic:

    “I was really impressed your team did not bring the much dreaded Ravenspam army list”

    But the lists they used were just spamming something else!!! Yea I get that this is the ultra competitive environment which is just alien to me, but I see no reason to compliment them for their restraint.

    • Adam Richard Corrigan

      Exactly, I mean they brought enough dark and bright lances to level a titan and every list was a max-mini spam fest. I’m sure they enjoy their games, but I don’t know how.

    • orionburn

      You mean like 32 missile launcher Devs..lol.

      “Muh spam isn’t cheesy like your cheesy spam!!!”

      • Walter Vining

        the only army that isn’t cheesy is the one you play.

        • orionburn

          Just like formations. My formations were fine. It’s everyone else’s that are OP!

    • bobrunnicles

      Just agreeing with everyone else on this thread. I mean 8 Nurgle Princes and Belakor? Spam much?

      • OldHat

        No originality or care for the game’s history/fluff/story, etc. Not shocking, given these types of players though.

    • OldHat

      What do you expect from these types of players? Big event players attract the WAAC types.

    • so we come in with all grots dissing the scene and flashing our epic strats !!!

  • Fergie0044

    On topic:

    Unit restrictions is the way to go I think. In matched play make it that you can’t take more than 2 of any non-troop unit, with the possibility of increasing this to 3 or 4 through losing CPs or by taking certain other units. (like a named character bringing some extra of his signature style units)

    And as I’ve said before – it’s still early days. Once we’ve got a bunch of codexs we should get a better idea of the meta. On the flip side, GW have already told us the first generals handbook is coming at Christmas. So by all means push the game to breaking point to help identify changes that can be added to it.

    • Xodis

      Im hoping they dont go that route. Let the Tounament players have their spam fest, most private/local groups can handle their own balancing mechanism.

      • orionburn

        I agree. I like the flexibility of the current detachment set-up. GW just needs to publish a book titled “How Not to Be a D!~k Player in 40k.”

        • Xodis

          Would make a great WD article! lol

          10 reasons why you’re an a$$hole and you cant find games.

          Top 5 lists and how to avoid playing them or the person that created it.

  • Luca Lacchini

    Uuuuuggh… those lists… happy to stay in my friendly bubble with sensible armies, where there’re bad looks and cruel jokes whenever someone brings a lord of war in a game less than 1500 points.

    • Damistar

      I totally with you on this. I read these articles and I’m not sure we’re even playing the same game. No one in my local FLGS scene would bring these lists, they would be glared at until they left.

      • silashand

        They just would never get a game in my group. I already told one player I would never play against something like that. I have better things to do with my time than waste it in a spam fest that is no fun for anyone except the abuser.

    • John Garside

      not that weve tried yet but, i thought the super heavies wernt as much of a d^&*k move now in 8th?

      • Luca Lacchini

        Superheavies are quite fun and a perfect fit for larger games or scenarios which have been agreed beforehand.
        You bring a Knight to a 1K points match… not fun. Maybe winner, but not fun, or pleasant, or classy.

        Mandatory battalion detachments might not be the right answer, but a LoW should have some “tax”.

        • Walter Vining

          mandatory detachments is a bad idea.

        • NNextremNN

          I think the Battalion or Brigade Detachment lack a LoW Slot. I think it’s stupid you have to bring a Supreme Command or whole Super Heavy Detachment to add even one to your force no matter the size.

          But I do agree that not all units are fit for each point level but this is not necessarily a LoW problem. There are some elite and heavy supports which can be equally expensive.

  • Zhan

    About the footnote: i have no problem with uncheesable but ”irregardless” …. really ?

    • OldHat

      it is a word. English is malleable and ever-changing. Stop being a language Nazi.

      • orionburn

        If you’re publishing articles you should have some writing standards. It speaks volumes when you can’t use the G word (that sounds like hammer) with your post getting flagged. There’s no harm in having some standards when it comes to writing.

      • Horus84cmd

        It may well be a word, however whether is proper English is a different matter. Due to the double negative is it, generally, viewed as a “nonstandard synonym” and consider poor English; spoken or in prose.

        • OldHat

          And? This is a blog, not a term paper for a Doctoral candidate in English Lit.

      • Xodis

        Yeah but so is muggle now, so I think dictionaries are getting desperate.

        Whats funny is how it means the exact same thing as regardless, yet the Ir usually reverses the word its attached to like in irrelevant and irregular.

        Definitely a non-standard word.

        • orionburn
          • Josh Felstead

            Irregardless does not mean “without without regard”, it means the same as regardless. I’m not arguing that it is acceptable to use ‘irregardless’ in any form of writing. It’s not, and makes the writer sound thick as pig sh*t. But it is technically correct regardless of how idiot its use is.

            See what I did there?

          • Xodis

            Yeah I think the meme works though as it states “would mean” not “does mean”, could even go with “should mean” since that is what is should mean anyways. Still, it’s such a bad word lol

          • Xodis

            Totally stealing this lol

          • and still no1 cares irregardless .

        • Scott Staten

          Muggle is actually an older english word meaning something to the effect of “Worthless person” So Rowling didn’t invent it, she just used an old school insult.

          • Xodis

            Hmm, fair enough.

            Explain Blamestorming, Gaydar, threequel and other oddities that were added to the Oxford dictionary lmao

          • No muggle is when you gently fondle a sac .

    • SacTownBrian
    • u wuhhhh ?!

  • disqus_yyglaTdo9o

    I forgot why I never go to tournaments. Thanks for reminding me.

  • Kayreios

    Well, since none of these lists are all that scary, I think 8th is a success. Haha armoured sentinels, hope he modeled them with bugs in their cages shooting lasers…

    • Foxdonut

      you’re not familiar with the concept of genestealers are you?

      • Kayreios

        I’ll take it any day.

        • Foxdonut

          what cost? are you high?

          • orionburn

            He’s talking about the Purestrain Genestealers points cost getting dropped significantly from the last FAQ. They went from 18 pts down to 10 pts.

          • Foxdonut

            weird that has nothing to do with the sentinels.

          • orionburn

            It’s his reply to your reply about the Genestealers.

            I dunno…that many Genestealers would not be fun to see on the table. That’s a lot of stabby goodness.

          • Foxdonut

            I dont see why anyone would want to play against most of these lists, at least the stealers is fluffyish. but screw Girlyman + missiles.

          • orionburn

            Oh I wouldn’t either. The ‘stealers list is fluffy. Would be tough to fight but at least it’s realistic. The rest are just garbage. I don’t get how people find this fun. Maybe it’s just the mindset that it’s all cheese and that’s where they find their enjoyment in building the most insane list. Not my cup of tea.

          • Foxdonut

            i guess its no different than luke skywalker using military aircraft to kill small rodents as a hobby.

  • wibbling

    This is gibberish.

    The armies also explain clearly that these are not interested in the game but merely putting their ego on the table to win. May as well use counters and a spreadsheet as they’re not playing 40K.

    • ZeeLobby

      Ah. So all this “dream the win” stuff is only applicable if you aren’t playing competitive players. I understand you more (or less?) every day wibbling.

  • Drew

    8 Nurgle Princes, Be’lakor (Undivided), and as many Tzeentch Brimstone Horrors as possible?

    5 Command Squads with no soldiers to actually command?

    32 Devastators and a Primarch?

    Favorite game was the one where the opponent was tabled in 10 minutes, because he wasn’t upset by it?

    Wow. Just wow. This interview will be my go-to reference the next time someone tries to convince me that tourneys are really a great place to go and have a fun weekend of gaming. The WORST pick-up game I’ve ever gotten in my FLGS (and I’ve had some doozies) wasn’t this absurd.

    • Matt C

      I raised my eyebrow at that one too. The thing is, this is the tournament scene, and if you look at the majority of the article postings here and elsewhere….that is what the game is about. I can honestly say I have never seen this happen outside the tournament environment at any store I have been to.

      • Keith Wilson

        its got to happen somewhere outside of tourneys …. woe it be for the unlucky person who plays where these WAAC’os practice …

        • Matt C

          That’s the LGS I used to go to. Every single minis game was “Practice for the next tourney” They killed so many systems in that store with that, and still do. BUt that is a microcosm. It can’t be everywhere.

    • Karru

      It has been so fun to see people try to convince me that the competitive scene of 40k isn’t that bad, but this is just about enough to show how bad it really is.

      When player’s favourite game was the one where he tabled someone in 10 minutes and the opponent didn’t rage, you know exactly that the tournament scene is very, very toxic. The only creativity in these events is usually the paint schemes and the looks of the armies. That’s about it and that is why I have no interest in them at all.

  • Defenestratus

    I”m honestly LOL’ing over here at the pure idiocy of the “competitive” 40k group.

    They were the loudest complainers about 7th edition and now look at what they’ve done – given us an edition that is even more imbalanced.

    Congrats.

    “This is the edition that YOU were asking for!” – GW

    • ZeeLobby

      I mean anyone who thought GW had the talent to balance was imho insane (and yes, I experienced a brief moment of hopeful insanity). Thankfully there are other better systems out there for this kind of stuff, but it’d be nice if GW stopped pretending they cater to competitive or that 8th was built with them in mind. They made a lot more sense as a “model first, game second” company.

      • stinkoman

        GW has put out such a vast set of units in this game it would be a miracle if anyone could balance it while still keeping some sense of interesting rules with each unit. I would say Wyrd and PPress have come close (in unit variance vs balance), but they still have issues. the fact of the matter is that this game should never be played competitive without understanding that you will be shoe horned into some kind of unbalanced/spammy list to compete. Im not against competative play at all, but i think if you play competitively (in this game) you give up the right to enjoy the rest of the WH universe which is really geared more towards narrative play.

        • ZeeLobby

          Yeah. I guess I just enjoy games that do both well. I’ve had a blast playing narrative scenarios out of No Quarter in WMH, and have played narrative games in other systems as well, but they also have the competitive side I occasionally crave. I realize it’s probably unrealistic for GW to pull off both given the rapid expansion of the game over the past 2 editions, and that’s really a shame imo.

          • stinkoman

            WMHs is not without it’s competitive issues. that being said, i agree with you. but that’s why there are so many games. GW does have the model/unit count like no other system. that in itself is a titan to manage on the balance equation. It’ll never be perfect and there will always be something the competitive folks will gravitate towards like spamming cost efficient units.

          • ZeeLobby

            True. But there’s still a large middle ground. There are tons of restrictive measures GW could take to make the competitive scene much more interesting and enjoyable. The problem is restrictive by nature means less sales. So I doubt we’ll ever see it. It’s just crazy how fast the game went from 0-1 limitations and a restrictive force org to take everything and as much as you want. Can’t be good for the game, regardless of actual unit balance. It just opened the door for abuse.

          • stinkoman

            Yup, im about to go out and buy 5 storm ravens for my competitive list ๐Ÿ™‚

            j/k I already own them.

          • ZeeLobby

            Haha. Sweet!

    • Matt C

      It’s all E-Peen. But some people like that more. More power to them.

    • I was predicting it. And people were calling me bad names ๐Ÿ˜€
      I mean, we all knew those guys who were making the “testing”. What else would you expect to happen?

      • NNextremNN

        The testing people seemed to have been tournament organizers not players which already makes a huge difference they also seem to have been extremely biased and have rated stuff for their reputation in 7th and not their actual performance in 8th.

        But it was worth a shot they had a chance but sadly did not use it to their full potential. But we also shouldn’t jump to conclusions before things happen. It’s not wrong to be positive or hopeful about things to come.

    • NNextremNN

      No it’s not what people were asking for but it’s what people made out of the flaws it has (which they will always do). I’m sure with time and changes and new codices people will use different lists. The ravenspam worked great in one tournament and everyone had the glorious idea to copy/optimise it for the next big thing. That is what happened here.

  • ZeeLobby

    Yup. This is pretty much why I’ve moved to other systems for pretty much anything competitive. I mean maybe in 3/4 years GW will get how to promote diverse lists in a competitive meta, but the answer is not “allow as much as they can buy”.

    • orionburn

      I’ve really come to question how much more money I want to put into this game. Love the models. Love the stories. But when it comes down to it I see myself focusing more on actually playing games like Battlefleet Gothic (when it returns) and the Titanicus game. I honestly have had more fun playing AoS recently than 40k. I’m not throwing in the towel on 8th, but I’m also not throwing money endlessly at it either.

      • Jens Hahn

        We often restrain ourself to small games up to 1000 points with nice scenarios. For example, we had a game with a Ork stompa, Orks tried to activate it, chaos tried to stop them by sabotaging fuellines and so on.
        great game, super fast because we didn’t play with 2000 ponts and Units with 200 shooting attacks that can eradicate whole armies.

        Just find likeminded players, thats key to have fun and fuel the models with background not just rules.

        That quicken games too.

        It opened my mind, a big chunk of my armies are now third party stuff. Grim Aliens, conversions and wierd stuff. So spaming isn’t a part of the game. I buy gw stuff sure, but more from a “what would be cool” standpoint than what the rules suggest. Its just so much more satisfying and you regain more controll over spendings.

        Do you like AoS? I love the fantasy setting, but often get some sort of sadness when i remember the vast lore of the old world and the more childish look of AoS. And empty my shopping-card full of lizardmen ^^. (never played fantasy) And go back to Heroquest.

        • ZeeLobby

          That scenario does sound pretty awesome. There’s just a lot of self-limiting and house ruling that goes into something like that. Maybe when I was younger and had more time on my hands, but now I just enjoy writing a list and trying it out. I mean for me at least it could just not be the right game anymore. I mean my friend loved the WK model, but pretty much had to shelve them to have good games in 7th. So playing the models you like can both work and not, haha.

          And yeah. Total War: Warhammer reminds me of how much I miss the old world every day. It was just so rich and interesting. Who knows, maybe one day AoS will reach that point, but it’s too much high fantasy for me. Maybe if they release an actual human faction.

          • Jens Hahn

            Yea I know, its not the solution to everything. But I realised that i’m just not the type of gamer GW caters to. So I had to find ways, cause I don’t want to quit the hobbie because of its rule set, the setting is to good for that (and the miniatures of course).

            I’m actually not that young ^^. I play about 1 to 4 games per 3 months, with about 50% regular games and even that is strongly interfeering with my work and life. The scenarios are there to connect myself more to the world I love instead of getting driven away by hollow rules.

            We do scenarios very casual. We sit together .. think about what is cool, and just try it. Mostly we need about 10 to 15 minutes to set up a scenario. Like Wraithknights salvaging Soulstones out of wreckages on a demonworld, protected by chaos raiders and CSM overlords. The unfair Unit (the WK) has in those cases some sort of extra game (like cracking open the wrackages and defending itself from demons) while the main armies influence the outcome of that, by .. idon’t know.. maybe making it harder for demons to manifest or something like that. What ever fits.

            Jup, Total War is a nostalgia engine. Always gets me pumped up to start fantasy, and then ….

        • orionburn

          If you go into AoS knowing it’s just about killing lots and lots of things (and being killed too) it can make for a good time. I hadn’t played Fantasy in years but was still hard to shake off the old habits of not seeing rank & file models. The lore isn’t anywhere near as good but I find it fun to play.

      • ZeeLobby

        Yeah. Definitely not throwing as much in as I did in 5th, 6th or even 7th. Maybe once the Codexes are out, but most likely I’ll just end up collecting the occasional piece here or there and end up playing other games that are just more fun (imo ofcourse).

      • Xodis

        Still working on new models before I play 8e, but I love AoS enough that Im sure 8e will be enjoyed as well. That being said, I wouldnt base the success, balance, or “fun-ness” on a tournament. While Tournament crowds can break a game with the best of them (even Xwing is constantly going through changes), its been my experience that lists like that usually stay at tournaments.

        • orionburn

          Guess it’s simply a learning lesson of 7th and not chasing models for formations and that sort of thing. We’ve got a pretty good mix of guys at our shop. Those that are competetive yet don’t bring cheese lists like these, and more laid back guys like myself that want games to be fluffy. I do wish tourneys could be more balanced to bring more people into them.

          I am still hopefull that GW will work to fix things as they come up. It’s early in the edition and I’m not going to stop playing. I have my guys that I have fun games with so I’ll be good. If the tourney scene still sucks then oh well. It’s not the end all be all for me.

          • Xodis

            It would be nice if there was an open “narrative” Tournament where a group of neutral parties went through the lists just to ensure there was no cheese. Probably way to much work for those who just want to get a couple games in though.

    • I only will ever play this game narratively. Competitively, 40k and whfb and aos have always been and will always be a laughable joke.

      • ZeeLobby

        Yeah. True. My group was hopeful for 8th, but were probably move on. It’s been a downhill slide since 5th imo, and while we do occasionally do narrative stuff, we really just enjoy matching wits over a variety of lists. Once something is auto take it turns most of them off to a faction/system. I’ll wait around til the Codexes pan out.

    • joe johnston

      negative as ever

      • ZeeLobby

        Redundant as ever ๐Ÿ˜€

        • joe johnston

          It’s as if you dont even like the hobby

          • ZeeLobby

            I like some things. Dislike others. Just cause you only find my negative posts and comment for? Who knows why.

          • joe johnston

            Almost every 40k article has a negative comment by you or has you agreeing with a negative comment by someone else

          • ZeeLobby

            I think the new primaris marines look much better than the old marines. Thats a positive. It’s not my fault BoLS continually tries to dive into discussing the competitive side of 40K and balance, two things the new edition of 40K just struggles with.

  • Randy Randalman

    1) Codices are coming.
    2) FAQ’s and erratas are to be frequent and logical.
    3) I don’t personally understand how people keep losing to Ravenspam. I find it one dimensional and easy to squash.

    • Adam Sinclair

      because they have 5 drops and so are likely to go first. When they go first they put out SO much damage that retaliation is futile or weakened to the point of being futile.

  • The only way to truly bring “balance” to the system is to enforce “officially” restrictions. Which is something GW will not do because it cuts into model sales. If I can only bring one storm raven, I won’t buy the other four obviously.

    • Xodis

      Which is quite easy to enforce for local meta. GW should leave things open for anyone to play the way they want to play. Players will easily fix it by not playing “that guy”.

      • Thats just it though. I find that most of the community is “that guy”. In fact I’d say the people that DONT want to play listbuilding-40,000 are in the minority.

        • Xodis

          Wow, I’ve only ever seen like 2-3 guys like that in every community I joined. You have some bad luck lol.

          What I use to do is recruit FLGS regulars that were like minded for private games that I or my buddies hosted. Food, drinks, and dice go a long way to building a nice casual/fun atmosphere.

          • I live in a very competitive region when it comes to wargames. The vast bulk are e-athletes or want to be.

            I’ve had to invite players privately to my campaigns now. My public campaigns are always wrecked by listbuilding-40,000.

          • Xodis

            Ah, well it seems you are on the right track. I knew a couple guys that were pretty Tournament focused, eventually they burned out so maybe after the new edition smell wears off, they will chill and you can get some more players.

          • I had someone in our local fb go on a tirade about my elitism because I wouldn’t let tournament lists into my campaign.

            This is why I moved to private gaming.

          • Xodis

            lol did you laugh at him and tell him why or just let him sulk?

          • It garnered about 10 likes. That was when I stepped down as event organizer and have given up running public games and stick strictly to private ones.

          • Xodis

            Gotcha, yeah people suck sometimes lol

          • Well at that point I spent the evening going… “is this worth my time anymore? Maybe I am the problem. Maybe my ideology to run narrative events is causing a problem in a sea of super competitive players.”

            I came to the conclusion that indeed I was the problem and trying to run narrative non-waac events was causing an issue. I don’t think they suck, I just think that what I want out of the game and my time is not what most people want out of listbuilding-40,000.

          • Xodis

            Well, I agree that your ideology is different, but someone complaining about elitism just for wanting a different style of game, isn’t your problem. If they wanted to participate they could always play your games, your way, but they didn’t. They wanted you to play your games their way….and thats just asinine.

          • True, but it was someone complaining about elitism and a bunch of people vocally agreeing with them that made me realize the way I want to play is better suited for private play. Also – I’m tired of the politics and the war one has to wage to get someone to tone a list down in a campaign.

            Much easier to just invite the people you know will do that without having to fight 12 rounds with them to get them to agree to it.

          • Xodis

            I can see that too, sometimes the fight is worth it, sometimes its not.

          • ZeeLobby

            Man. We went to a tournament one state over and the group that played there was about 40 of such people.

          • Xodis

            Wonder if that is where Auticus lives lol

          • Mira Bella

            Auticus is from Kentucky. ๐Ÿ˜‰

          • ZeeLobby

            I’m on the east coast. I think competitive scenes are pretty prevalent to be honest. At least every where I’ve gone outside of the west coast it’s more prevalent then not.

          • Xodis

            Dallas seems pretty balanced, and Arizona is pretty tame. There is a Tournament circuit but they guys i met know when to leave the face crushing list at home.

          • ZeeLobby

            The Southwest in general seems to do better at narrative events. The NE, SE and Middle of the country tend to be pretty competitive heavy. At least from my experience.

  • Horus84cmd

    Each to their I….guess? Certainly not my bag. Does not sound like a “fun” environment at all to be in. Regardless of how well written a wargame rules are done: spammers will always spam; and gamers who solely want to win-win-win will do whatever if they feel it will give them an advantage. I personally find that mentality droll, uninspiring and detached from the spirit of the hobby.

    • Karru

      This list style reminds me of the story my friend told about his experience when he played at a tournament towards the end of 5th edition. He said that it was fun facing other like minded individuals that came there to test out their skills and show off their models, but then there was these two extremely annoying players who played the exact, same, f’ing, lists. They were identical to the last wargear option, just nicked from the top GK player from another tournament.

      The final game was just these two fighting against each other.

      It just makes me sad to see people do things like this. The idea of going to a tournament to seriously test out your skills sounds fun, but the fact is that there is really little skill to be shown there, like actual skill. I don’t consider the ability to calculate spreadsheets and counting the most optimal amount of damage as a skill because it usually just ends up being the same old “well, I would have won if the dice had rolled average” excuse.

      I enjoyed playing in our own little “tournaments” where there was just points and bragging rights on the line. You brought what you wanted, which amongst my group meant that people were bringing their standard armies and trying to pull off a win, thus showing off their actual skills at the game.

      • Xodis

        I agree, net listers are sad lol.

        My local meta was the same way though. I hosted a tournament at my house once that included all my buddies with whatever list they wanted to bring. We all brought standard lists with little nuances here and there (like me trying to win with Raptors to prove a point lol), and our Guard buddy brought in some new Valkyrie spam he just picked up. He ended up losing both of his games, so we kind of laughed and told him shouldn’t try following what the internet says lol.

        • Matt C

          I played a netlist once upon a time against a friend who always beat me. You know what? I won. I also hated that game, and so did he. I didn’t outplay him like I wanted to, I out….i dunno…listed him?

          About two months later we played a 1000pt game, and I had a custom Nid list I created on my own, and beat him. It was the best experience of my 40k time, and he was enjoying it too, and congratulated me. Only time I ever beat him to this day.

          I wonder if he let me….lol

  • Is there a list that forces flyers to crash yet?
    You might be able to do it with a brigade detachment..full of maxed out Grot mobs. That’s 360 models for 1080 points Plenty of points left over for Dakka…. and a weird boy.

    • SacTownBrian

      Stormraven can hover.

      • I had completely forgotten that. Haha. Oh well.

    • NNextremNN

      Even if that would work do you really want to stop one spam list with another spam list?

  • badmojo1966

    2nd edition carried limits of you must spend 25% minimum points on squads, and no more than 50% each on Characters and Support.

    • orionburn

      My guess is that the tourney scene will start putting in some speed bumps. Either by making it mandatory to take a battallion, limiting the number of detachments that can be taken, or at least limiting detachments to 1 only.

      • badmojo1966

        Agreed. Perhaps 1 extra detachment per full battalion?

  • Danny Carr

    5-6 stormravens, 32 devastators, 8 daemon princes, 10 assassins in that BOLS article. I get it’s tournaments and it’s not wrong or anything it just seems like sucking all the fun out for pure math and cheese. Do they use armies like that outside tournaments….

    I just cannot imagine a player bringing them lists outside tournaments. They’d be lucky to get a game. I’d sooner play someone that brought a warlord titan than someone that brings 5-6 stormrravens to basically blow me of the table before I can move a model. There plan is literally to stop me actually having any kind of game with them because I’m basically done by turn one.

    If GW does nerf it I hope they do it just for tournaments rather than it applying to all games in a FAQ. Frankly I’d rather Stormravens and flyer detachments didn’t get nerfed because of WAAC players. How many people will ever be using more than 1-2 Stormravens outside a tournament? The armies used in the ultra competitive environment of tournaments is going to be very different from what most players use among friends.

    • Tournaments are all about math. The fun is the math. The fun is seeing if your math wins the day. The fun is seeing if you can win the tournament in the list building phase. Thats what tournaments are and a giant massive HUGE chunk of the playerbase loves that stuff.

      • Danny Carr

        That’s fair enough it just isn’t for me at all; complete opposite of what I enjoy but every one is different :). I do wonder if they use them lists outside tournaments though.

        I do think that what players use in tournaments shouldn’t have an impact on players that are never going to be using them kind of lists at their FLGS though. They’re going to use anything they can to get an edge which is going to lead to stuff that’s extremely powerful.

        • I’ve been fighting that battle for many years. I only do narrative games and by invite-only now, because trying to do public games at a store or run a public campaign always involves someone coming in trying to win with listbuilding, and any semblance of a cinematic game goes out the window.

          Take a group of 10 guys. 9 of those guys may either not care about listbuilding math or know how to tone it down. However, that one guy will be unable to tone down either because he doesn’t know how to operate that waay or doesn’t want to.

          Those other 9 are going to escalate their lists because the one guy doesn’t know how to or want to tone down.

          Thats my experience with FLGS games.

          • ZeeLobby

            Yeah. The death of fun PUGS and events is quite sad.

          • CloakingDonkey

            solution: play your fun campaigns with historicals… or obscure games like Konflikt 47 or Beyond the Gates of Antares ๐Ÿ˜›

          • ZeeLobby

            I want to so bad. Just hard to find players. I feel like people are just overwhelmed with options these days. I’d love to find people to play Konflikt 47 with.

          • CloakingDonkey

            yeah that’s true. It’s certainly much harder to find players for each of the systems available… If all else fails there’s always the good ol’ “buy two starters, get your mates hooked, sell one starter off” gambit ๐Ÿ˜›

          • ZeeLobby

            I’ve already become “that guy” lol. So sneaking new games in has become a challenge. BtGoA is pretty appealing game wise, but I’m not in love with the models. Konflikt 47 models are great, but my group has been traditionally sci-fi/fantasy only. It’s a real struggle, as both systems play so smoothly.

          • CloakingDonkey

            yeah they’re probably my favourite systems for squad & vehicle type games. I hear ya on Antares minis.. they are ok but feel a little plain. It would be a great system to mod for 40K ๐Ÿ˜‰

          • ZeeLobby

            I wish. I honestly wish GW would simply outsource their rules. “We’ll make the minis, Warlord the rules”. Though the minis are def where the money is at, but the bolt action system is definitely refreshing, fun and tactical.

          • CloakingDonkey

            to be fair Warlord’s stuff is alright for the price. It’s really just Antares that’s a bit too pricey for its own good. Bought 42 Dacian Nobles from Wayland the other week for 20 gbp. That’s no so bad. ๐Ÿ˜€

      • Admiral Raptor

        Ugh, that is easily the most Bad Wrong Fun I have ever heard of, but then again I hate list building, math, and any game that doesn’t tell an interesting story. I just can’t seem to get my head around competitive Warhammer. There are so many better games to be competitive about!

        • There is no bad wrong fun.

          Competitive warhammer is simply playing a version of warhammer like its magic the gathering. Only with super expensive models. You deckbuild in magic the gathering. You listbuild in competitive warhammer.

          It is, in the public view anyway (that being forums, fb groups, and FLGS default games0 the most common way the game is played.

          If you want to play where the game matters you’ll need to work hard to find players that want that same thing. That is what I have had to do.

          • Admiral Raptor

            I’m being a little facetious when I say Bad Wrong Fun. Anyone can play what ever way they want (even if I find it perplexing).

            I think I’m just uncomfortable with how a big segment of the community approaches the hobby :s.

          • I understand. Completely. Though mine is not uncomfortable. Mine is frustration that a lot of guys don’t know how to dial back when its appropriate, and want every game to be a tournament scenario.

          • Matt C

            THIS. that’s my issue too. My group fell apart before even starting because of time, GW hate (misdirected), and Tau issues.

          • I wish so bad that there was a more solid way of playing online… there are a lot of like-minded dudes out on the interwebz.

          • NNextremNN

            Tabletop Simulator has an active community making 40K models.

          • Thats why I included “solid way ” of playing. Tabletop Simulator is not whole and when I used it it had issues.

      • Antoine Henry

        Wrong, the Tournament players are the smallest part of the players and if you think its a giant massive HUGE chunk thats wrong too. Make a poll and check about how fun “the small part on the forums/internet” think about the ravenspam and your math tourney list and you would have a good 90% feel that it is not fun at all ๐Ÿ™‚

        • I’m going off of sales data. In my area, the tournament players spend the most.

          In my area, you are “TFG” if you complain about listbuilding-40,000.

          So in my area, the tournament players or the players that enjoy playing the game where listbuilding is what it is with the busted stuff make up the majority.

          In my area, take 10 players, 6 of them regularly attend tournaments and think that the game is all about listbuilding, and 2 more may not go to tournaments much at all but play that way as well in the casual games because they don’t want to get pounded into the sand at the FLGS by the other 6.

          That part is anecdotal, but moving into the forums, the most vocal people are also the people that enjoy breaking things with listbuilding. I’ve seen polls. I’ve also written comp that balanced things down for public campaign events, and the most common complaints were that everything is like everything and is boring… and listbuilding is a skill and listbuilding should be dominant.

          I put the two together and thats why I think how I think.

          Can this be quantitatively proven? Nope. I’ve seen about one hundred polls that all vary wildly in results. The last one was one on facebook with over 100 votes that heavily favored playing RAW with no comp and just deal with it.

          Is 100 votes representative of the community as a whole? Hardly. You’d need a global poll pushed out by games workshop to get a real gauge on what people largely want. Which we will never have access to.

  • Admiral Raptor

    I think the lists in this interview have made me less sane. If this is what 8th edition competitive play is going to be about, then I can only hope that the competitive mindset doesn’t catch on in casual environments.

    I can’t even fathom how someone’s favorite game in a tournament could be one that lasts ten minutes, and that the highlight was that his opponent wasn’t salty about it and they had some drinks. Maybe next time skip the awful tournament and just have a social night with your buddies?

    • Xodis

      Its a new system, the time to lay the groundwork is now. Keeping active in the local scene should help prevent that. I know I slowly recruit from the FLGS for private games I host, that way I fill the roster with players I actually want to play.

    • Keith Wilson

      its laready caught on in my area … people bringing 3 LOW to a 1500 pt game ….. excessive flyers …… by GW making those 2 detachments they gave everyone carte blanche to cheese it up

  • Jose Delgado

    Easy,nerf stormraven to 500 points,brigthhorrors to 5 points, ravenflocks to 14 points,every marine vehicle go up 30% cost, eldar and dark eldar flyers and vehicles go up 30% also the cost, conscrips 5 points,comander tau 200 points and end spam

    • NNextremNN

      LoL then people just spam different things.

  • Josh Felstead

    Is proof reading even a thing anymore for you guys? This almost hurt to read.

  • Josh Felstead

    I’m so glad this guy placed 3rd without the need to use complete spam such as “6 nearly unkillable Stormravens”.

    OH WAIT, 3 Baneblade variants, plasma spam, THIRTY TWO missile launcher devs, EIGHT Nurgle Princes with Be’lakor, NINETY ****ING EIGHT Genestealers.

    Tournaments are garbage, man. These lists suck.

  • Drpx

    An article about competitive people using competitive lists at a competitive event. THIS TRIGGERS ME!

  • uatu13

    All this article does is confirm that 8th definitely isn’t built for tournaments, and that cheesy creeps will always ruin this game. I’m glad I live in an area where people play to have fun, not to try to crap on their opponent’s day.

    • Gangrel767

      Actually, 8th IS built to be played in organized play. They even have a whole mission set called “matched play.”

      Also, What is ruined? Nothing.

      My weekend was great. I played a few games of 40K this past week which were fun. Nothing was ruined in my life.

      The people who went to the ATC were expecting brutal lists.

      Just because you don’t enjoy tournaments, does not mean that tournament players ruin the game, or it isn’t built for tournaments. Get over yourself. I’m glad you live in an area of like minded people. That’s the best.

      So do I, lots of competitive lists and players who want to bring it… but also a great FLGS who support a less competitive crowd, and guess what… no ones day was ruined by the ATC there either!

      • uatu13

        I guess you can speak for everyone. This event sounds like a joke filled with people just trying to find loopholes in the game. Yeah, real “fun”.

        • Gangrel767

          They seemed to have fun, based on the blogs, podcasts and articles I have read about the event.

          Sounded like a super fun time to me.

          Be glad you have a great like-minded community to play with.

          Point still stands… Nothing was ruined.

  • Dave

    This is why I’m glad that GW is making a bigger deal out of Open and Narrative play this time around. 40k started as a Roleplaying (ish) game back with Rogue Trader and it how I’ve always played it. Tourney players can keep their format. I’m happy with the other play styles

  • Everyone seems confused about how many people in the 40k community play like the guys in this article, and how many play safe narrative games with their friends. Reading these comments, it seems like most of us are narrative players, but are claiming that most people are competitive and 8th is dead, blah blah blah. There’s like 140 comments, on an article about a compettive tournament, and most of them are people complaining about competitive play.

    Here’s an idea: if you’re not interested in competitive play, don’t comment on articles like this. Just ignore them totally. I’m not a competitive player, and this is the last time I am ever going to comment on a post about competitive gaming. I’m using it to suggest you all do the same.

    Maybe then we can all get a more realistic picture of how the community skews.