40K Tactics: ATC Winner Aaron Aleong Interview

Today hear from the ATC 2017 tournament winner about what’s going in with 8th edition now.

ATC 2017

Hi everyone !!! Black Blow Fly here again with the second part of my report covering the recent American Team Championship (ATC). I don’t want to beat a dead horse but then again this horse ain’t dead just yet. Today I bring you an interview with the mighty Aaron Aleong who is the coach and player on Team Happy – they came in first place this past weekend and this is the third time they have won this arduous event. Three times is very dominating to say the least and Aaron has won many of the major events at events across the country. To me Aaron is a lot like the Randy Couture of Warhammer 40k in the US… he even kind of looks like him too.

Meet Team Happy

So let’s introduce the other members of Team Happy and what roles they all play for three years running:

Tony Grippando – Captain
Aaron Aleong – Coach
Justin Curtis – Rules Master
Aaron Towler – Lore Master
Tim – Finances (aka Chief Bean Counter)

To quote Aaron…

“As a team we all give input on lists and test each other to include playing our lists against each other. Our team mixes well and therefore I believe performs well together. Also in our team no one had an issue with biting the bullet and taking a bad matchup for the team. I have seen many teams that aren’t willing to sacrifice in this fashion.”

Those word of wisdom are solid gold ! So now onto the interview:

Q1) Why did you decide to run Ravenspam and how’d you learn about it ?

Looking at the matchup opportunities of isolating a small drop list againt a large army guaranteeing first turn (except on a seize), and the damage output of A Stormraven (40-44 shots with up to 6 different targets) it was a no brainer to take two Raven lists. I saw numerous Raven lists that were not optimized to do well.

We heard about the list a few months back from an event out west, tested it, and built two seperate lists that were able to perform well. Though I will say in an event where deploy first go first isn’t automatic this list won’t do as well and I fully support changing this mechanic.

Q2) What are the best natural counters to Ravenspam and what are its worst matchups ?

Natural counters are the bird list, high rate-of-firepower lists with lots of models (i.e., some Guard lists), and of course mirror matches. However If there is deploy first-go first with no rerollable seize.. Ravens are too powerful. I am working on a counter at the moment.

Q3) Did you have to play any mirror matches and if so what were your tactics to ensure the win ?

I did not, but my teammate Tim played a Grey Knight raven list and played three other Raven lists which he all beat soundly taking home the award for best GK player. Tim had a definite advantage by having less drops and therefore went first most games. He got seized on one of his game but deployed defensively and was still able to crush his opponent.

Q4) How important is it to go first with Ravenspam and are you willing to burn a command point to reroll Seize the Initiative to still have a chance to go first ?

At ATC you couldn’t reroll seize. The go first is too powerful in a list like this. See above. 🙂

Q5) What are the best buffs for Ravenspam ?

A Chapter Master equivalent is vital… Dante, Draigo, etc. Being able to keep up with the ravens is the tricky part. Some people took Robby G, but I feel that is a waste since Rowboat can’t keep up with the ravens. Any type of probability alteration is extremely valuable with GW limiting the number of re-rolls.

Q6) If you would have had to have fielded a different army what would you have taken instead to ATC this year ?

I would have taken my top secret Nova Open list. Which wont be shown here. My list is Imperial and doesnt have flyers… hurrr hurrr !!!

Q7) How do you foresee Ravenspam playing out over the next 6 months with soon to release codices ?

I really hope they are adjusted. It’s too powerful the way it is now and I don’t really see the new codices fixing them. My hope is GW will step up and alter them… maybe removing POTMS, or increasing costs, etc.

Q8) Will Ravenspam still be competitive at NOVA this August ? If not so much then why ?

I think it will be less successful because of the +1 change. If this list doesn’t go first then it’s in trouble. Also I feel the missions are better with progressive objectives but then again 5 or 6 Ravens can table most armies quite easily. 🙁

 

~So there you have it from the proverbial horse’s mouth ! Team Happy had not one but two Ravenspam armies and that’s definitely a big deal... so far spam is king.

  • Frank O’Donnell

    Maybe GW got the wrong lads to play test LOL.

    • DJ860

      Lol. Perhaps GW should know better by now, but they probably play-tested them as a normal player might include them in their army. I guess it’s tough to spam-test every unit.

      • orionburn

        GW can’t control people from being absolute holes with an a. Nobody I play with would bring this garbage. I love the flexibility of all the detachments. I don’t want to see that change because of a couple of jerk list builds from tourney people. We can definitely argue about the issue of how important it is to go first. Now that is something GW can find a fix for.

        Guess I’m just getting tired of hearing tourney people trying to say what needs to change in a game when they’ll go on to exploit something else.

        • Karru

          But there lies the problem you see. It is the tournament folk GW listens to. The people GW brought in to test 8th edition were, if I am not completely mistaken, all from the tournament circuit.

          The thing is that you can get rid of these exploits easily without hurting the flexibility. All GW has to do is increase the price of many of the broken units, that is all. Guilliman costing 500pts and Stormravens costing 300pts base for example would do a lot in reducing their spammability.

          There is also a problem with the “flexibility” you speak of. What you might call flexibility, I call forced choices. With Guard for example, I am basically forced to the Brigade Detachment thanks to the way they split the units this edition. Guard needs Elite Slots, because their Commissars, Platoon Commanders, Veterans, Special Weapons, Priests, Ratlings and Ogryns are there. 6 Slots of the Battalion fill up right quick with Guard. Then you notice you need more than 3 Heavy Support because of the Heavy Weapons Squads. Then you notice a severe lack of Orders in your army and lo and behold you need more HQ slots as well.

          Suddenly you have two options. Take roughly half the amount of CP by taking multiple detachments or pay for the mandatory Fast Attack choices and possibly extra Troops and take the Brigade.

          The system was based on sales. GW wants to generate sales so they make it look very flexible while at the same time making it very spammable and it wants to encourage that.

          • ZeeLobby

            Yeah. Any fixes would reduce sales. Dunno if they have the cajones.

          • ellobouk

            they’ll find the cajones, in about 6 months when everyone has bought 6 ravens…

          • blackbloodshaman

            Ding ding ding ding

        • Zhan

          Exploit… i mean really

          The problem is that their just still isnt a place for all units on the tabletop.

          If regular troops werent being so massively outguned by super heavy stuff they would have a place on the table.

          (or increase the point cost of super heavy stuff)

        • Frank O’Donnell

          GW went to tournament organiser’s & players to try to make a game playable in tournaments, but even though they want it played in tournament they don’t want to restrict what people can but or use, a return to the old FOC wouldn’t fix all ill’s but it might help.

        • Zingbaby

          This guy is known longstanding ‘hole’ too, I’m not surprised at all to discover he was the Ravenspam hack.

        • Richard Mitchell

          What is that sound? Oh the community eating itself again when even the guy at the tournament says there should be an FAQ for Raven spam. Guess vocalizing concerns to the most glorious leader is taboo. Better to just put down the players who are using the product in a competitive setting. Better to just brand and shame players than coordinate a petition to the most glorious leader to patch the game.

      • highwind

        If testing every spam list is impossible, how about making spam impossible with reasonable FOCs instead of the current “take wahtever you want as often as you want”-b*llsh*t?!

        • Spacefrisian

          Or? Just let tourney players play like tourney players and they let you play like you want to play, everyone happy.

          • AircoolUK

            Totally agree. No doubt there’ll be some changes in the future, particularly at Christmas when Chapter Approved is due to be released, but in the meantime, let’s just play how we want.

          • majbjörn

            Do you want to play Card games in same manner? no limit on duplicates and such?

            If everything is spam able, things can only be tuned via power and points.

          • ZeeLobby

            The problem is that you never escape without heavy house rulings. If 6 ravenwings are powerful, 2 are probably still powerful. A well balanced game never hurts narrative fun players. I’d argue it even helps. Sad they’re not willing to jeopardize sales to do this.

          • Richard Mitchell

            Most level headed statement I have heard around this entire conversation.

          • Carey_Mahoney

            Exactly.

    • Sure

      Any game is breakable if that is your goal. If you don’t like it, just don’t play at such events. I would never play in a tourney like that, but clearly there are many others who find it fun

      • Frank O’Donnell

        I agree with you 100% there are people who enjoy it & I’m not trying to stop them, if it starts to effect the numbers going then TO will need to do something about it until then they don’t.

      • ZeeLobby

        It was more the message GW was touting as a sales pitch which was ridiculous.

      • No, this is just not true. This is a design flaw in 40k. It happens because list building is such a huge part of the game and because GW is committed to letting players field whatever they want. This makes balancing 40k really difficult. I don’t think 40k is suited to be played a competitive game. There are games that don’t have this issue.

        • Richard Mitchell

          Here, here, nothing wrong with GW marketing itself as a casual game and filling that niche when there are better tournament based systems out there.

      • Richard Mitchell

        Every game is breakable but every game is fixable. Reminds me of what Will Hungerford said during Lock and Load “there will always be a bell curve in these type of games, but the goal of CID and new tournament formats is to depress that curve as much as possible”. Most honest statement I ever heard from a game designer. The tournament players seem to want the spam to be fixed, so no it is a matter of the players notifying GW in a coordinated fashion to make it urgent enough for it to be fixed.

      • Sparowl

        It isn’t a binary decision – Broken/Unbroken.

        There are degrees of broken.

        A good game designer’s job is to limit how broken something can be. If the difference between two forces is 1-100, then the designer has done a terrible job. If it is 98-100, then it is much better.

        Obviously the ultimate goal is parity, where player skill determines the game, but that may be unreachable.

    • Drpx

      This is the play test. Everything before was marketing.

  • Knight_of_Infinite_Resignation

    Had to try four times to load this page. Three times my browser was hijacked, by some site telling me I was chosen for some prize, buzzing my phone and not letting me close the tab.

    For gods sake sort it out BoLS.

    • crabmond

      don’t even read Bols from my phone, it is unusable and has been for some while

      • Knight_of_Infinite_Resignation

        I’ve never known it as bad as this. Used to be this would happen if you accidentally clicked on the floating ad which covers the page, but now, even on desktop the page simply disappears and is hijacked without even clicking on anything.

        • byteme

          Ad blockers are your friend

      • Arthfael

        It keeps asking me if I want to switch to PC when I’m on my the mobile website, this is so annoying I end up switching to PC all the time.

    • JL

      BoLS is abysmal on a mobile device.

    • KingAceNumber1

      But on the upside, at least you were chosen for some prize

      • ZeeLobby

        LOL

      • Knight_of_Infinite_Resignation

        Haha true! Except I suspect the prize was a virus that would give control of my phone to the Russian mafia!

        • KingAceNumber1

          To be fair they never claimed it was a prize you’d WANT

    • We do not authorize redirects or pop-ups – for more information on what’s going on and how to report it: http://www.bolsinteractive.com/2016/09/25/techreport/

      We are unable to replicate the issue, and cannot begin to start tackling this without user reports – we get maybe a 1% return anytime I request more info. Send screenshots so we can tell our agencies what to block. Without reports from those experiencing the redirects we can’t do anything.

      In addition: we can’t provide adequate tech support in the front page comments. If you have an issue: follow that link and follow the directions. Comments about this – beyond this exchange – will be removed to keep threads on topic.

      • Knight_of_Infinite_Resignation

        I’m afraid I can’t take a screenshot when it has taken control of my phone and I have to take the battery out…

        Perhaps someone else will manage. If it does it again on my laptop I can get a screenshot.

        Try clicking on the huge hovering ad or the side bar ad if you want to replicate it, doing that by accident when trying to close the ad seems to take you to the same sort of site.

      • Knight_of_Infinite_Resignation

        So now you delete my reply? Yet you expect me to do your work for you by getting a screenshot? Why the hell would I do that now?

  • majbjörn

    If I was GW id just rotate an OP unit every month and watch these players buy loads of them.

    Or maybe even per week?

    Land Raider! now 10 points!

    Then just enjoy as these guys buy 200 land raiders.

    • AircoolUK

      Even more so if a new version of the model is likely to be released in a few weeks.

      Everyone, go buy six Stormravens. Once our warehouse is empty, we’ll release the new Stormraven kit.

    • Karru

      You do realise that GW has been doing that for years now but with subtlety? They purposefully “rebalance” units in a way that makes the old units less powerful while at the same time increasing the effectiveness of other units.

      For example, 4th and 5th edition were the edition of Vehicles. 6th edition drops and suddenly Infantry was the king of warfare. Assault Marines and Devastators not selling too well? Here is a new kit and a broken formation, enjoy.

      Need to sell this 65€ character trio set, here is some utterly broken rules to accompany them!

      GW isn’t doing this at random. They look at the sales and “balance” accordingly.

      • majbjörn

        Perhaps, feels like it is a rather natural effect of buffing what is weak and nerfing the strong.

        And with this new, very non strict, way of building armies they certainly made it easier for themselves in that case.

        And with all the “people should be able to play with what they want blablabla” going on i bet this is only the beginning. Only named characters has a restriction other than points left and that is probably going away soon aswell.

        If Joel wants to field five Girlymans, he should be able to! right? There is nothing but drawbacks to limitations!

        Edit: Kappa

      • Heinz Fiction

        I’m not sure if they had enough understanding of their own rules to make units either good or bad on purpose. Remenber, the infamous Pyrovore was introduced in 5th edition Tyranid Codex. They even made a model for it while the almost mandatory Tervigon didn’t get one until much later…

  • I’ve never been a fan of fliers in skirmish style
    games. They just make no logical sense
    in such a small engagement area. Any
    actual fighter craft would blister by such a small area with little time to do
    more than strafe. If you allow them to
    hover, say like a helicopter, then they need to be extremely susceptible to
    ground fire. If they’re moving, they could
    be harder to hit but have much higher penalties to accurate fire.

    • ILikeToColourRed

      even modern helicopters don’t engage at a vulnerable range – to my knowledge they tend to fire off some missiles from a mile or so away

      • ZeeLobby

        How cool would it be if we didn’t have to though. I’d love some rules for points purchase-able artillery and flier strike tactics that wouldn’t require buying $80+ models.

        • heh that would defeat the purpose of Games Workshop’s business model 😉

          • ZeeLobby

            I know 🙁

    • Ronin

      For Imperial vehicles it makes sense because they do have the hover option. I tend to imagine my flyers to be more like choppers than jets, though.

  • mrbleak

    8th was a good backstep in the right direction back to 4th. You know what would fix this??? assaults on flyers from anyone and anywhere, remember in fifth when you could assault a StormRaven with Ork boys? yeah, back to that, problem solved, Harleys and Khornflakes will tear through that gimmick list.

    • KingAceNumber1

      I honestly just think if the Raven lost PotMS and hard to hit it’d be fine. It’s already T7 and 14 wounds, it doesn’t need to be harder to kill. Airborne still gives flyers a unique role in the game.

      • Ronin

        Hard to hit isn’t that big of a gamechanger. I’ve had players one shot my stormraven multiple times. PotMS is probably something that could go, though.

  • If only this didn’t leak into casual games…

    • KingAceNumber1

      Do you generally see that in your meta? I live in northern VA, lots of the pro’s live around here (the Kopachs, Nick N, etc) and even they don’t bring things like this to casual games unless specifically requested.

      • We have a couple of people that will bring this to casual games and campaign games, yes. This causes everyone else to ramp up their lists so they aren’t ground into paste.

        • KingAceNumber1

          That’s really unfortunate and I am sorry to hear it. People who do that give the competitive crowd a bad name, most of us got into this for the cool stories and still enjoy narrative play =)

          It’s really down to the player to show restraint outside of tournament games and it sucks that you have people bending your casual scene like that.

          • It made me realize that I no longer have interest in public gaming. I love narrative campaigning, and have switched to a private invite-only model. So far its working well.

            The bad thing is though that the guys that bring this kind of stuff to FLGS pick up games are driving a lot of people out of the hobby altogether.

            There’s a time and place for everything, but some people think that stormraven spam or whatever is currently teabagging the meta should be used 24/7, and thats not good overall for the health of the game IMO.

            In a tournament – I’d never say a word. (I used to be an unabashed powergaming tournament player for a solid decade, that is the environment for this kind of thing)

          • KingAceNumber1

            I think the hard part here is separating the subset of competitive gamers that tend to do that (just bring tournament lists to every game and not talk to their opponent) from the vast majority of competitive players that draw a hard dividing line between tournament practice or play and just enjoying the game.

            It’s really unfortunate that the smaller subcommunity of people who can’t regulate the way they approach the hobby is tainting the water for the rest of us who can.

          • Its one of the root ingredients of the casual vs competitive rage arguments to be honest (not being able to separate the tournament players that know how to dial down when needed, and the waac guys that just will always bring the hardest filth regardless).

            We have a good number of dudes that love tourney play but will play casual games with casual lists. Those guys are awesome.

            It only takes one “TFG” though to cause the arms race.

          • Ronin

            Yeah, I’m with you there. I tend to pick and choose my players very carefully these days. It’s like DnD where you need to have a good group of guys to play together with.

          • Kayreios

            Underrated post right here!

        • ZeeLobby

          And suddenly everyone is playing a game they really didn’t want to. Yeah, it’s pretty common.

          • yep. Bad for the community overall in that instance.

        • Defenestratus

          The solution is take your pasting from TFG and just be the bigger, more mature person.

          Don’t let yourself get sucked into the vortex of iniquity that is the “competitive meta” because it really is a toxic hellstew for anyone who choose to tread there.

          • That sounds like an abysmal waste of my time lol (taking my pasting). I can save two hours of my life and his by congratulating him on his tactical mastery and moving on without spending the time required to take my models out.

            My solution is to simply no longer do public games anymore and step away from the public community and focus on private games and campaigns.

          • ZeeLobby

            I wish you lived closer. If there is a local narrative community, I’m not sure where they’re hiding. Lol

          • In someone’s garage like my narrative community 😉

            Where abouts are you?

          • ZeeLobby

            DC metro area, haha. I can’t be 100% sure but I remember you being out west.

            Garage communities can be a huge pain to find and enter. Really wish the game was better so they’d feel safer in stores as we have some great ones.

          • Well yes I am west of you. But NOVA is 9 hours drive. I’m in Louisville, which is an hour and a half south of cincinnati and three hours north of nashville.

            I also agree on the garage community thought. They are a pain to form as well. But damn if I waste anymore of my time running a public event to have tourney joe and tourney dave show up and insist on running something from LVO in my narratives and drive the players out and be told to “git gud”.

          • ZeeLobby

            Yeah. I’m probably skipping NOVA this year. If I’m ever out that way I’ll stalk you though, haha. Would be nice to play a narrative game.

            And yeah. It sucks. I mean I have a gaming group that plays weekly, but all 3 of my friends are pretty competitive. I’ve tried starting narrative campaigns multiple times, only to have them give it up 2 games in. The problem is you really need everyone to support it and assist in creating the atmosphere, and when they don’t really want to it tends to fall apart. It’s just so weird because they’re totally into other very narrative games like DnD and Descent. We’re also about to start Gloomhaven, but once it gets to tabletop war or cards it’s all out the window. Lol.

          • Most of the guys here are that way too. They are all in for the first couple rounds and then a lot of them drop. Either they are bored, or they lost a game and don’t feel they can “win”.

            Usually end up with a small core of 3-4 players to finish the campaign.

            Attention spans are very small these days.

          • ZeeLobby

            Yeah. Maybe that’s it. They all come prepped to win today’s game, and that’s where it ends, haha. Damn mobile games!

          • Precisely.

          • KingAceNumber1

            Zee, why haven’t we played yet? I live in Ashburn and work in Tysons.

          • ZeeLobby

            Dunno. But we should. I lived and worked in Laurel, and then moved further North and commute, so I’m even further away than the DC area than I was before. But I’d def come down for a game. The stores around me have just dried up as far as PUG go. What store do you frequent?

      • Defenestratus

        “Pro” plastic doll players is a laughable and utterly mockable idea.

        • KingAceNumber1

          No moreso than your staunch insistence on injecting your anti-competitive toxicity into every conversation you can, regardless of whether it has anything of value to add

      • Matt C

        I’ve seen the exact opposite in Northern Virginia. Might be different circles then. That was the main reason I quit ever playing in an FLGS for anything resembling a PUG. Besides, at home I have beers on tap….

        • Yep. I’ve retired to my home for home games and invite-only campaigns. I don’t do public games or FLGS games anymore.

        • KingAceNumber1

          Shame… if you come out to Huzzah Hobbies in Ashburn, our friday night group is a great mix of game types and friendly players =)

          • Ronin

            Hey, I go there too!

          • Matt C

            I used to go there. There’s a few reasons I do not anymore.

    • Erich Schoenholtz

      Yup. Watch stupid lists like this ruin communities. I’ve seen it happen first hand.

    • Defenestratus

      Just take a look at the number of storm ravens on the shelf at your LGS. They’re getting harder and harder to come by. My buddy up in Canada says nobody has them in stock and doesn’t know when they’ll get them. You’ll have a hard time convincing me that only the delusional competitive players (I repeat myself) are snatching them up.

      I’ve got a SR that’s been sitting in a storage bin for 2 years, wrapped in plastic.

      Now taking bids.

      • ZeeLobby

        EXACTLY. Sure they might not bring 6, but they’ll bring 2. And if the balance is bad, it’ll still hurt casual games.

        At some point people need to realize that balanced games are just better for everyone. You can always decide to not follow the core rules for a narrative, but the core rules still define the majority of all games, competitive and not.

  • Damistar

    Ugh. Will somebody just write a computer program that these folks can load their lists into and tell them who wins? This way we can be spared these tournament articles where the “best players” tell us how they win by just playing the numbers and we don’t have the endless comments about how GW doesn’t know how to playtest, write rules, design games etc.

  • KingAceNumber1

    Hey, maybe we could get another 6 articles about stormraven spam today? I’m not sure at all that you all have talked about it enough.

  • Xodis

    Eh, its still early. Take the spamed units and double(ish) the points. People were calling out certain units that were too expensive or too cheap on day 1. Now the ball is in GWs court to keep the balance like they promised.

  • davepak

    They are good players – it is sad to see them use raven spam.

    Much better when good players win without using cheese.

    • ZeeLobby

      The best players use their skill + the tools allowed them. I can’t really fault them for this. I would like to think GW may see this and fix things, but who knows.

    • I know this ruffles feathers but I don’t see players winning with broken spam as being good players. I see them as being competent in 6th grade mathematics.

      To me, a good player is someone that can bring a moderate list and win with it. Because that takes skill and excellent decision making on the table.

      Broken undercost units are crutches. Winning with them does not prove that one is a good player. You may be a good player. But I’ve seen a lot of sub par players win with broke lists because the lists carry them.

      Unfortunately I’ve only ever known a handful of players in 20+ years of wargaming that are willing to do this. I wish there were fixed list tournaments where army list building wasn’t considered and the lists were all equivalent in power roughly so that the winner was truly the player that demonstrated the most skill on the table.

      • ZeeLobby

        In a good competitive system, planning for and building to the meta can also be a great skill. Meta bucking or riding the crest of the meta wave can be very hard to do. Then in a good system it usually requires player skill as well. Sadly GW systems don’t really have a shifting meta, especially now that armies are even more homogenized. It would require good internal/external balance to do this.

        • To a point I agree with you. But I don’t see building to a 40k meta to be a great skill. It literally takes the community less than a day to see where all the undercost OP units are.

          Thats where my skew stems from. I did build to whfb and 40k meta for a long time and I did very well, but at the end of the day when I look back on my GT placings, and my RTT trophies, I know in my heart I’m only an average player that crutched through 10 years of tournament placings with broken lists.

          • ZeeLobby

            Haha. Well GW systems have never been all that “good” of a system. They’ve been close at times, but there’s still usually those 2/3 lists which are just ridiculous.

          • I’m ashamed of myself from back then too. I did the whfb 7th edition mat ward demons and thought that made me good. I was the guy that told people to ‘git gud’ back then.

            smh

          • ZeeLobby

            Haha. Age tends to draw you to the narrative side as well. I really enjoyed taking off lists back in the day, even if spammy. I never took the broken stuff, but I’d still do well, usually top of the pack. Like I had a SM bike list pre-gav that I loved to play competitively. Now I just play a lot of other stuff. It’s just fun to give in to my competitive side, build strong lists, and apply them to narrative games as well, and not instantly sweep the table. Been mostly WMH and Infinity lately. Maybe Runewars once all r are out. It’s been refreshing to have it be OK to build strong armies.

            Would still love to find some good narrative 40K tho.

          • I’m working on the grand crusade 2nd edition. The first edition I have loaded up on narrativewargaming.com

            We did the badab campaign using those rules in 2015. It was awesome.

      • davepak

        I agree with you 100%

        My point is, these are supposedly already good players before they took the cheese.

        Let them win or loose without the cheese.

        I abandoned GK in 5th when they got a new book and were cheese, I stopped playing necrons in 7th, I never had more than on riptide with my tau, and I never built a single grav centurion for my marines.

        Do I win all my games? no, but I win most, and all are hard earned wins – with no cheese.

      • I agree 100% to a degree… there are those that can win big with tactical lists but they are rare birds and 7th was totally messed up .

    • We used it and want it curbed.

  • Dragon2928

    Seems to me there is an easy fix for this issue… TO’s should limit which detachments are available.

    • From an attendance standpoint, it is usually bad for a TO to alter the rules as written.

    • davepak

      I also think “max of this unit per x points”. In other words, can only take 1 storm raven, dun crawler, etc. per X number of points.

  • Richard martineZ

    Granted this spam meta seems to look like an a-hole list but this is ATC/tournament list. The event encourages players to play to win so if you’re into fluff then stay in the casual crowds or play in tournaments that have a hobby score to rate your fluff and play style. The one thing I would object on, is to remove any player title who has won any tournaments with a specific army. For example if you won with blood angels like the list above, but you didn’t really play blood angel fluff then keep it general because then there is conflict with the hobby. Then again that’s my opinion.

  • Gian Carlo Peirce

    enjoy also ravenguard storm ravens-now comes with a minus 2 to hit? maybe.

  • badmojo1966

    I don’t see these people as winners. It’s just tweaking the system to go first with mathematically the best answers. If they were truly gaming “generals” they would play with pre-organised armies in the tournament – armies that looked like armies and test their mettle then. Anyway kudos to them for computing how to win.

  • Drew Wallace

    Can we ever expect perfect balance in any competitive game? Of course not. The problem with Ravenspam is the resulting negative play experience. Games are supposed to be fun, win or lose. Playing against this list will never be fun or challenging for either player.