Pimpcron: Why Do You All Hate Change?

Deep thoughts on wargaming from a metallic shallow brain pan.

It is I! The most Cron-like of all Pimps, Pimpcron! This week I have another Facebook-inspired musing. With the new edition and the addition of the Primaris Marines, I’ve heard a lot of belly-aching about change and things being different. Why is that?

While it’s nothing new, especially for us geeks, I am always fascinated by the concept.

Everything Changes

I find it ironic that humans hate change so much. Being that every moment of your life, your body is constantly losing and regenerating cells. The tides come and go, the Earth orbits and rotates, your children grow up and your dog will eventually pass away. You are constantly aging, the economy fluctuates, and the sun doesn’t even emit a steady amount of radiation. Your brain pathways are always changing with constant learning and forgetting, and even your meals aren’t permanent.

 

By the power of Tzeentch, I transmute your food into poo!

I’ll assume that I don’t have to sit here and explain why a meal isn’t a constant source of energy, and how it is changed and expelled.

People talk about death as if that change is the antithesis of life, but they’ve got it all wrong. Death is just another part of life; a CHANGE that we don’t usually care too much for. Saying death isn’t a part of life is like saying the credits aren’t part of a movie.

I think I’ve made my point, and narrowly avoided the dreaded afterlife topic. Stay with me.

So Why Do We Expect Things To Stay The Same?

I’ve produced four small humans in my life, so I’d say I have some field experience with them. I have seen them and helped them develop and here is what I’ve found that explains why we don’t like change. When you are finally old enough to start identifying things and getting your bearings on the world, you have to start organizing your thoughts. You learn that a dog has four legs and people have two, so in your mind you say “Oh, if something has four legs, it’s a dog. Two legs, it’s a human.” Then you see a cat and you realize that not all four-legged things are dogs. Four legged things are either dogs or cats; and so on, as you discover more and more four legged things.

What breed of dog is this?

This is how our brain gets its bearings on the world around us and, consequently the reason for stereotypes. Now, before you all get #triggered, I’m not just talking about negative stereotypes. All stereotypes are made for a reason, even if they are incorrect. Every single person is a completely different entity and really deserves their own category, but our brain can’t possibly handle that. So we have to put people in categories mentally, or we’d lose our mind.

Men are commonly physically stronger than women, and women are commonly better at organizing and care giving. Does that mean you can’t have a woman beat you at arm wrestling or a great male nurse? Of course not! But for the sake of brevity, your brain has to say “X is usually like this and Y is usually like this.” It’s when we stop making exceptions to our categories that we get narrow views on things.

So Why Do You Hate Your Hobby Changing?

You get an idea in your head about what you think the hobby is, and for some strange reason, we don’t ever expect it to change. A perfect example of this is when I hear people say, “I bought the Collector’s Edition Codex, even though it will probably be outdated in a couple years”. What do you mean probably? Has there ever, ever been a codex that wasn’t outdated eventually? What makes you even have a tiny hope that your codex may be legal forever?

Take a look at my new Abhuman army with Slicey Commisar.

The same goes for your marines. What makes you surprised that they would add new types of marines or progress the fluff? Every other army gets new units eventually, and usually it isn’t just a variation of the same models. But look at Marines: Devastators are marines with heavy weapons, Bikers are marines with bikes, Jump marines are marines with jump packs. All of their units (minus scouts) are marines with different wargear, not different units. I’m happy that they finally have some sort of new unit with a fluff reason for them. Even if they are just bigger marines.

And if you say you don’t like the look of the new ones, I call BS. They look just like the old ones, only bigger and better proportioned. What is there not to like? I will say that the feet on the Jump Primaris (I don’t feel like looking up how to spell their silly name) are little funny, but I still think they are cool and different. And you can’t for an instant say that you didn’t want the Nickelodeon Moon Shoes as a kid.

It’s like being on the moon, except you look like an idiot (or an Inceptor).

So in closing, as your heart pumps (changes), lungs breathe (changes), you slowly age (change), and live your life (swimming in changes), don’t fear that you’ll hobby will change. Expect it to change. And if it changes enough that you and it aren’t compatible anymore, more on and leave it. Given the nature of change, your hobby may just come back around to something that you’ll enjoy again.

Or you could always just bitch and moan about it on Facebook. Because we know that’s the only way to illicit change in the world. Kind of like “likes” for charity.

For every comment I get, I’ll donate 1 sympathetic thought to the charity of your choice!

Please comment, the children need you.

Pimpcron signature 3

2017 Shorehammer Button for BoLS
  • Koonitz

    I…..

    I… I wanted the moon shoes….

    Edit: Correction. Want. Want the moon shoes. Still.

    • kingcobra668

      You still want them because you have not tried them. They were/are crap.

      • Pimpcron

        ya know, I always kind of thought they would be crap, but it didn’t/doesn’t stop me from dreaming.

  • “People talk about death as if that change is the antithesis of life, but they’ve got it all wrong.” Pretty ironic from someone who has been in stasis on Nervkor for 60 million years.

    • Pimpcron

      Frankly Parcival, I don’t like your tone. And I’d kindly ask you not to mention how old I am on here. I’ve been told I don’t look a day past 35 million years old. 😀

  • Frank Krifka

    All stereotypes are made for a reason, even if they are incorrect. Every single person is a completely different entity and really deserves their own category, but our brain can’t possibly handle that. So we have to put people in categories mentally, or we’d lose our mind.

    That’s basically Kant’s argument when he’s describing how the mind organizes information in his “Theory of Judgement.” (He calls it a “schema”).

    From wikipedia: “There are three types of concept that require a schema in order to connect them to perceptions so that they have sense and meaning. These three types are (1) empirical concepts, (2) pure (mathematical) sensuous concepts, and (3) pure concepts of the understanding, or Categories. The first two employ schemata. The third employs transcendental schemata.

    His argument is that since all sensory information is dramatically different (sight, sound ect) they must be connected to each other trough an abstract concept, that abstract concept also allows us to interact socially, which is a theory of social interaction proposed by gestalt psychologists.

    • Pimpcron

      Hey! Validation! Despite my silly humor and stupid pen name, philosophy has always been my first love. While I figured this theory out on my own, I’m happy that someone more famous and with actual credibility backs me up!

  • Bakvrad

    I guess the first part I will send to my super political correct friends who seem that they want to turn all people into all liking zombies without an own taste and opinion.

    For the second part: is there a casualty record for the moon boots? They look dangerous ^^

    • Keaton

      The point is to recognize that you’re going to have stereotypes but also be aware of their limitations. I know it’s trendy to bash “PC” nowadays, but it basically just means “don’t be a dick”.

      • euansmith
      • ZeeLobby

        Haha. Amen. I think it’s nutts PC has become the enemy. 9/10 times it’s brought up because the initial comment was pretty hateful and alarming.

        • eMtoN

          I disagree. It’s become the enemy because people intentionally take an inncocent statement and twist it to become a hateful thing, which happens far more than your 1/10 times

          • ZeeLobby

            No. Those are just the ones you remember and focus on. The majority are still accurate identifications. They just don’t use the exact term PC. They call them racist, sexist, bigots, etc., because they are. This also makes what they say politically incorrect.

  • Blackfel
  • Rafał Pytlak

    Just bare it and use it until the next edition/update change it for the better

    • Tushan

      Ah but herein lies the problem. Nobody even partially recognizes these unusable units, frontline simply laughs it of and calls the whirlwind “sooo goood”.

      Did I miss like a ton of things or is a 115 point artillery tank that only manages to kill 3 guardsmen per turn really strong and an option every SM player will consider taking?

      To me it is a math miss that a six year old would have spotted.

      There are units like this scattered here and there.

      • AX_472

        for one 115pts is pretty cheap. secondly, maybe shoot it at tanks instead of guardsmen? …..wait, just looked at the whirlwinds datasheet, how on earth are you only killing 3 guardsmen with 2D6 S6 hits? with 2D3 OK, but that’s more for heavy infantry/light vehicles. Tau have it far worse, everything in our list has been hit with price increases and the nerf bat. building a good tau list is now actually hard because any good choice is REALLY expensive. Crisis suits for instance are double the cost and have lost the move shoot move that made them work well, same with all battlesuits.

        • Karru

          2D6 averages 7 shots. BS 3+ averages to roughly 5 hits. 2+ to wound leads to roughly 4 wounds. 5+ save if not in cover leads to 1 model saving. Total damage, 3 Guardsmen.

          • Geko747

            Its not exactly designed to kill guardsmen though is it.

          • Karru

            What exactly is a Strength 6 weapon with no AP and 1 Damage supposed to kill?

          • Heinz Fiction

            Shoot on Eldar. They aren’t any tougher than guardsmen but cost 2-4 times as much. shooting on guardsmen with anything other than a cheap handgun will never be efficient. Thats why they are so good this edition.

          • ILikeToColourRed

            im assuming he’s playing against guard not eldar

            shooting at guardsmen doesn’t tend to happen unless youre playing against guard…

          • Heinz Fiction

            Or GSC…

          • Karru

            So you get 3 Guardians on average. 1 Jetbike, no Rangers, 2 Dire Avengers, 2 Howling Banshees and so on? Only Rangers are in cover in this situation by the way.

            I would rather pay 80pts more for a Stormtalon Gunship with Twin Assault Cannon and Typhoon Missile Launcher which deals more damage with its Assault Cannon alone than 2 Whirlwinds.

          • Heinz Fiction

            And I would rather pay 1,50 € for an Ice Cream but if you happen to have a whirlwind and not a stormtalon, you’ll do damage worth it’s own point costs by shooting a Dire Avengers for 3 turns. I did nowhere state, that this makes him an optimal choice.

          • Karru

            And my point is that when even a 100pts Transport (Razorback w/ Assault Cannon) does more damage than a dedicated artillery piece, something is very wrong with the internal balance.

            Whirlwind doesn’t fill any role right now.

          • Heinz Fiction

            I totally get your point. I sold my last Falcon on ebay a while ago for the same reasons. I was just answering your question: There are valid targests for S6 no AP weapons in the game.

          • AircoolUK

            It’s only advantage is its range and indirect fire. Maybe a battery of three with some character buffing them could make them useful?

            I dunno, just throwing out some ideas and see if anything sticks. Perhaps there is some use for them, but because they’re always overlooked, no-one’s bothered to experiment?

          • Severius_Tolluck

            Let us be honest, it hasn’t for a long time. Heck GW tried to kinda even phase it out. They also got rid of its minefield ability. Not to mention other weapons like Grave made them lack luster, long before this edition. Plus they made those other rhino variants. Just saying. If you have one, and do not have the others, why not use it.

          • Knight_of_Infinite_Resignation

            Haha, thats exactly the sort of unit is is meant to target in the fluff! Shifting dug in light infantry.

        • Spacefrisian

          115 for 3 or so kills as opposed to 98 and 20 kills (fully decked out Tauorox Prime with 34 shots) that balance is a bit of imo.

          • AircoolUK

            Trouble is, the Whirlwind is one of the weapons platform that falls between the cracks, it’s neither anti-infantry nor anti-armour. It can do both, but not anywhere near as well as a dedicated platform.

          • Karru

            But… It can’t do either at all really.

            Against Toughness 3 you are looking at 4 wounds on average before saves.

            Against Toughness 4 and 5 you are looking at 3 wounds on average before saves.

            Against Toughness 6 you are looking at 2 wounds on average before saves.

            Once you start making saves, the amount drops even more.

            6 Guardsmen Mortars deal more damage against both targets than the Whirlwind. 6D6 averages to 21 shots, which leads to 10 hits.

            Against Toughness 3 you are looking at 7 wounds on average before saves.

            Against Toughness 4 you are looking at 5 wounds on average before saves.

            Against Toughness 5 and 6 you are looking at 3 wounds on average before saves.

            That is better damage output, comparable range (48″ is enough to cover most of the board) and the ability to fire indirectly… for 54pts.

            Sure, Heavy Weapons Team isn’t the same as Whirlwind, but I just can’t see what it is supposed to do at all. It can’t kill Infantry reliably at all nor can it damage even the lightest vehicles well. There is literally no reason to take it in a SM army.

          • Raffazza

            Random shots are hard to quantify… you could roll a 12 and (with some buffs and a fair wind of luck) kill 10 models. At which point your opponent will rage at the cost of the thing…
            Would say they are decent (not saying good) at staying hidden, chipping away and likely surviving the game… TBF, they havent been great since 2nd ed…

          • Dave Bacon

            While I totally get your point, and cannot argue the maths or your argument, I do have to add that I’ve used a whirlwind twice in 8th and both times they have decimated guardsmen or zombie/cultist/poxwalkers/whatever they were.

          • Tushan

            Just saw the whirlwind strategem in the new SM codex, datalink telemetry.

            EVEN with this strategem paid for constantly the WW is not worth taking. Talk about model-damage-pointcost miss.
            You have to actually use a lookout landspeeder AND pay a command point to make this 115 points piece of useless dung kill a whooping 3.5 orks.

            There are seldom such sad misses to be seen in the 40k game.

        • Tushan

          Ah I mixed up orks vs guardsmen, irrelevant difference point wise when it comes to show the uselessness of the whirlwind.

          115p to take one-ish wound of an enemy rhino?

          2D6 means 7 average shots = 4.6 hits!

          This means 3 dead orks.
          or
          4 dead guardsmen. 3 with cover.

          What a “fantastic” return of points for a 115p tank huh?
          I bet you will take three.

  • Karru

    The big thing that causes hate about change is the fact that the chances are it is just changing one problem to another.

    8th edition for example. It did fix some of the problems the game had and a good chunk of the most annoying things in the game have been destroyed, but the game came up with a new set of problems.

    Many old units became obsolete. For example, 90% of the Tanks in the Guard codex are worthless next to their Infantry. A Guardsmen Squad of 10 has roughly the same damage potential as a fully kitted Leman Russ Battle Tank and that is not right.

    The thing that causes hate about change usually originates from one’s inability to affect it. If something changes, chances are that the majority of people that the said change affects are not the ones that decided the change was needed OR didn’t make any decisions regarding the change itself. This is what happened with 40k. A very small group of niche people with specific mindset on how the game should work was set loose on the game. This leads to very, very bad choices very quickly as has already been seen with many choices in 8th edition. It has become very easy to spam and in many cases the game is more or less rock-paper-scissors when it comes to choices.

    • Knight_of_Infinite_Resignation

      Well said.

      Plus a lot of gamers are either actually on the autistic spectrum (at least 3 guys at my club have such a diagnosis and those are just the ones I know about) or have the sort of personality that likes facts and certainty.

      When the facts change and there is no cetainty its upsetting for these folks.

      • Graham Bartram

        Somewhere in this post is the real reason that the 80’s was the golden age of games, despite all the charts and tables.

    • tylran

      You do realize that not a single codex has come out yet? Things can and will change.

      • Karru

        Yes, but which way? Good or bad?

        Considering that 8th edition just got released and it is more than likely that SM codex was already being prepared for printing, the chances are that there won’t be any major point/balance changes in it. This means that Guilliman will be underpriced still, Stormravens will be underpriced still. On top of that, they are now getting all these Warlord Traits and Stratagems to use in order to buff those units up even more.

        While GW keeps repeating the same line over and over again “community will be heard and changes will be implemented based on feedback”, I won’t be convinced until they go down hard on SM which will never happen. At best, the only thing they do is lower the price of other units to “compensate” and make them more “attractive”.

        With what we have seen, Codices will bring tons of new rules and buffs to the armies that receive them. The SM rules are absolute gold and border on the broken compared to what armies using Indexes have to work with. For the next 5 months, it is going to be absolute h*ll to play for many pick-up gamers that aren’t getting a codex this year.

        • Fergie0044

          Eh, that’s not much different than normal. Your army’s strength could be heavily reliant on where it fell on the codex cycle. Hopefully, hopefully, by doing a load of codexs in a short space of time will see more of a balance between different armies than 7th. Although, naturally, those been done last will suffer in the short term.

          • ZeeLobby

            Man. I remember that streak in 7th where Orks, BA and Tyranids were released in short order, all around the same power level and toned down. It was so promising. Then Necrons dropped, and then the D-ladden Eldar. Needless to say, I’d probably be speechless if somehow the 10 upcoming codexes were even close to balanced.

          • Fergie0044

            live and hope

    • Erikjust

      Well said there is also the fact as The Youtube channel The Outer Circle mentioned why the whole Primaris marines from a fluff perspective makes no sense what so ever.

      Also from what i have been told on the tabletop the new Primaris marines doesn´t really do anything that other Space marine units can´t do just as well.

      Also from what i hear right now hord armies such as orks and Tyranids are more or less the new number 1 on tabletop, since the removal of templates have removed the thing, that most armies had that could deal with hord armies.
      And while i don´t mind the removal of templates if you don´t put something else in that can fulfill the function that it had, your are left with a skevred game.

      Sure there is the saying about to many chefs in the kitchen or something like that.
      But maybe if GW keep their promises and will update the rules of a yearly basis, based on the feedback they get from players (hopefully it will be in large tournaments, so everyone and their dog don´t flood GW with all kinds of useless information), we will eventually see something that get as close as possible to a somewhat decent balanced game.

      • Karru

        The hope is that GW sees the typical Tournament list and realises that their “encouragement towards fluffy lists” plan isn’t working at all. The current system encourages spam more than anything. The way buffs work, the way that the detachments work, the way they split some of the units, the way CP is basically useless at the moment if you are an Index army all just show that you should go with spam.

        How they can fix that is another beast entirely. The game is flawed by the very freedom it offers.

      • ZeeLobby

        Yeah. Sadly without the return of templates, I’m not sure how you balance out that horde issue. You could just give weapons a certain additional lethality depending on the size of the opponents squad. But that won’t remove MSU or other issues. It’s a real dilemma.

        • Erikjust

          I think it MIGHT be balanced by giving tanks multiple shots and have the wounds transfer to other squads nearby.
          the shoot would have to be low strength so that they would mostly effect Hord models with low armor value, while armies with normal to small amount of units won´t get whipped out, by such a unit.

    • Andy Wise

      There’s a valid and understandable financial resistance to change. If you’ve invested money in an army of a type, painted it up all nice and pretty and got used to using it well I can well understand that you’d be miffed if that army becomes obsolete.

      From GW’s perspective they want to sell you more models, not just sell you an army and have you stick with it forever. The trick is to bring out a product of a strong enough quality that people are happy to spend their time and money on it.

      Job mostly done in 8th I would opine.

      • Karru

        Business tactic 101.

        I have nothing against GW in that regard, my only real issue is that they really aren’t going to be taking much community input on balance changes because of the tactic they use.

        GW will decide how the balance goes because they want to sell stuff. A balanced game won’t generate as much revenue as a game that shifts balance completely from one list style to another every 3-6 months.

        • orionburn

          I joked yesterday that once Vespids are taking up more space in the warehouse than anything else they’ll eventually become the toughest unit in the game. I don’t blame GW for doing what they do. As a business they have to figure out a way to move product that isn’t selling.

          With the current issues in the importance of going first people will gravitate towards the less is more approach. That means less models on the table. That pretty much guarantees GW will fix a problem like that quickly.

          • Knight_of_Infinite_Resignation

            I think it is a flawed tactic though. Look at my favourite games, SAGA and Bolt Action.

            They are very balanced, so growth in sales comes from people expanding their collections and new players readily join because the game is fun.

            In other words they are successful because they are good, well designed games with continual supply of expansions and cool new products.

          • ZeeLobby

            I mean this is what I would argue, but it doesn’t seem to be something they grasp. They’ve been generating pretty significant sales from continually having their players chase the dragon, and I’m just not sure they see any other way.

            The GW fanbase reminds me a lot of Apple’s. They’ll accept completely consumer unfriendly practices (removing headphone jack, having 4 USB-C ports + plethora of available dongles, etc.) while defending them repeatedly. I think GW, like Apple, has probably calculable numbers of sales that they can depend on this crowd for. It let’s them use pretty much any business practice to generate sales. This is all a conspiracy theory stretch of mine, but it seems to fall in place, haha.

          • Knight_of_Infinite_Resignation

            I think they were complacent because of their size. Now they have some serious competition they have improved their game. Yet they are still fairly incompetent at rule writing and balance. So many bits of 8th are great, but some REALLY aren’t. Its a radical change that to me wasn’t needed, since their profits were actually growing.

            Will the rubbish elements of 8th damage their turnover? Or will it appeal to enough people? Time will tell. People seem to be getting bored with it already round here though.

        • ZeeLobby

          What’s crazy is you look at stuff like bullgryn, and you have to think, if this is their tactic, they’re godawful at it.

    • euansmith

      “This is what happened with 40k. A very small group of niche people with
      specific mindset on how the game should work was set loose on the game.”

      I think that this has always it has been done; but previously it was the studio staff with there very particular method of playing games. Now the tournement players got some input. I like some of what they have done (keywords for example), and dislike other bits (loss of facing on vehicles). What I am hoping is that a cycle of feedback will lead to a better balanced set of rules.

      • ZeeLobby

        Well keywords sprung from AoS. I think more of what the tournament players have done was remove the stupid things that made no sense. Like how genetically altered super soldiers which specialized rhino transports were incapable of assaulting from them, etc. They most likely just added the small common sense fixes GW had been missing for several editions.

        Previously the game played well because those old blokes who wrote the rules played the game heavily, even attending competitive events, etc. It was a bunch of gamers writing the game. They were all let go, and have moved on to building whole game systems for other companies (Mantic, Warlord, Flames of War, DFC, etc). What was left was a bunch of admins who wanted to maximize profits, but really weren’t all that invested in gameplay. Now we have a ruleset that allows almost anything because they want you to buy everything.

        • GnomesForge

          Perfect analysis.

  • Knight_of_Infinite_Resignation

    I feel the same about Obliterators. So much fun doing risky deep strikes and blowing things up. Now neither of those things are possible and they are generally rubbish as well.

    I think people hate Primaris marines because they feel like an attack on people’s existing collections. Which, to be honest, they are.

    • Dennis J. Pechavar

      Also the fluff behind them is IMO silly and not well thought out. Again IMO.

  • Andy Wise

    I’m not sure the point being made was that all change is good, merely that it railing against all change is pointless and unhealthy. When things change there are, by definition winners and losers. You can only hope that the balance of benefit that is derived from change is positive.

    Also – perhaps if you’re not keen on how [insert disliked unit here] has changed replace it with something that works better…

    • Karru

      That’s the problem. You are forced to change your list because GW decided to make it useless. My Guard army is now almost pure Infantry because Guard Tanks are the weakest options in the book. Even I have a problem fielding one and I always go with looks first, usability second. Leman Russ is just so bad that I can’t justify taking it and because of that I prefer to take 20-30 Guardsmen instead.

      • Geko747

        Its better than seeing the same lists over and over again, its the natural progression of games. If they brought out a new edition and everything was the same as before then what would be the point. And a Leman Russ has more than enough weapon options and better toughness and wounds making it worthwhile in lists.

        • Karru

          Not in my experience. My Infantry Squads last longer and do more damage throughout the game compared to a Leman Russ. My Russes die or get disabled on the first turn by two or three D6 Damage weapons. Russ only needs to suffer 6 wounds and it can’t hit anything.

          • Knight_of_Infinite_Resignation

            Get into 30k and use your Russes in the Militia and Cults list.

  • NNextremNN

    Life and Death is not a change it’s a cycle. You were given life, you gave life, your gone. Rinse and repeat. That’s no change. That’s not Tzeentch that’s Nurgle.

    Humans hate change and do everything to keep the sate of comfort for as long as they can. Only when it’s impossible to keep going people change and this rarely happens. Think about drug addicts many need a complete breakdown before they can change. That a psychological problem I’m not good enough to explain or to fully understand but it’s there and others have analysed it thoroughly.

    8th edition has changed little about the game and nothing in how GW works they still sell models, they still sell rules, they still sell books and FW is still separate from GW when it comes to rules.
    Tournament players still try to find the most powerful lists. Some people still hate them even if they never gone fight those individuals.

    I really like the new primaris marines and their models and like their corrected size. What I don’t like is that transports are either primaris or normal marines. Why? This makes no sense. There is little reason to limit this in the game when they can fight next to each other as brothers … except if you wanted to force people into not only buying new marine infantry models but also in buying new marine vehicles. I can understand this from a business side of thinking they want to increase their profit. But I don’t have to like this.

    I really doubt they will ever do normal marines again (at least not GW FW maybe) so people still fear they someday will be unable to use those old models. They don’t know when and ignore the possibility to still use the old ones with new rules. Something GW could have done or said more clearly but that might have hurt sales of the new models which they of course don’t want. Again I don’t like this but I understand this.

    You can’t just say everything changes and people should accept everything. Some complains might be valid some might be personal opinions which you shouldn’t just ignore by saying your wrong and I don’t care what you say. This will only enforce those views. You have to convince people with proof and evidence. Of course this takes time and might still fail, maybe they will make you change your mind. That’s always a risk. Or you go the rigorous route and say what I say is law and you have to do so or you will suffer. Which is kinda what caused the Horus heresy.

    • GnomesForge

      One correction. There is no “corrected size”. Primaris are just bigger just because its easier for GW to make and sell bigger minis. The old marines are the size they are supposed to be. True Scale is dead. Basically you just like bigger figures, but scale creep is a stupid thing that shouldn’t be allowed.

      • NNextremNN

        Well Astartes are supposed to be bigger than humans. Which is not the case for the old models. But someone mention in one thread that old marines were bigger than very old humans until they made bigger human models. I’m not sure because I didn’t play back then and don’t have so old models.

  • AircoolUK

    Magnets. Is it a Whirlwind? Is it a Stalker? No, it’s a Rhino with two Assault Cannons on top.

    You mean a Razorback?

    Yeah, that’s the one.

    I get your point though. I think the Whirlwind was one of the very first vehicles based on the Rhino chassis. Perhaps it could improve on its utility, maybe some smoke missiles to provide cover to one unit or something.

    Problem is, the more utility, the higher the chance that such things can be used to cheese it.

    Maybe sub faction bonuses might somehow make it useful.

  • m3g4tr0n

    Most people in the community self-validate based on how OP thier WAAC list is. Change that, and you are essentially telling them they do not matter.

  • Commissar Molotov

    Change brings us Space Wolves riding giant doggies, Necrons bro-fisting Blood Angels and transports that look like giant flying shoes. Change SUCKS.

    • ZeeLobby

      Haha. It would be nice if change brought cool stuff. WARD!!!

  • Defenestratus

    the new edition isn’t “change”. It’s just reshuffling deck chairs.

    And it only took a month or so for people to realize that the ship was still taking on water.

    • Knight_of_Infinite_Resignation

      Some of the changes were great. Much that holds it back could have been fixed with more change, like BA style alternate activation. Its kind of fallen between stools.

      The big miscalculation IMO though is mistaking detail for complexity and throwing out things that were essential to the feel of the game in the name of simplification. Then adding unnecessary complexity back in in some attempt to make units interesting.

  • Me

    I… predate the moon shoes. Other than the article making me feel like Methuselah ;P, I thought this was a very good read!

    P.S. – Getting older is better than the alternative.

    • Pimpcron

      Ouch. I feel sorry for the all of the generations that didn’t have moon Shoes to dream about. I don’t remember exactly when they came out but it was in the 90’s so I was more or less a child.

  • highwind

    So basically your are complaining about other people complaining?!

    • Pimpcron

      No, basically I’m telling you to BUY! BUY! BUY! CONSUME! FILL THAT VOID IN YOUR SOUL WITH NEW PLASTIC! Hehehehehehe. No, “basically” I’m saying that things change and you should embrace it, but if you can’t then you find a way to cope by either not playing, or not using the parts you don’t like. But complaining won’t help.

      • GnomesForge

        So change for change sake. Got it.

  • Xodis

    Pimpcron with the hard truths in an amusing way. Home run buddy!

    • Pimpcron

      Thanks! But seriously, what breed of dog is that?

      • Xodis

        Probably like a miniature chihuahua lol

  • benn grimm

    Change is like time, or trying to take a picture of an animal at a safari park, once you’ve noticed it(or it’s noticed you), on it moves again. It can be irritating, it can also mean transition to a better place. Which features ice cream…:)

    Popular subject for pop music too;

    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=zbnJo88kuP8

    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=eXvBjCO19QY

    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ZH5f-QJcVN0

    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=P6jAMwK-4QU

    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=6_tyPKUZumw

  • Dave Bacon

    I tell you what part of change I don’t like. The part where you spend most of one edition saving up and building and painting a load of drop pods for your Dark Angels army because you have enough models to make a battle company and so you get the pods for free, and you have such a great time painting those pods (I didn’t, it was a long, arduous task which I swore I would never repeat) that you even get a couple for your other marine force, so you can make a skyhammer, and you literally finish painting the last pod the week before 8th edition is announced, and then your local gaming scene switches from 40k to Shadow War for a bit while waiting for 8th, and then it comes out and you discover your Dark Angel pods aren’t free anymore, and your other marines pods aren’t 35 points any more, the CHANGE has made them triple in cost, and it screws with your head so much that the first list you put out for 8th edition is a Predator, a land raider with a single Terminator Librarian in, a Ravenwing Apothecary and a Hive Tyrant. You start crying, nothing makes sense anymore, the list doesn’t even come close to the 2000 points you agreed with your opponent. He’s brought Magnus and some thousand sons, of course he has, he welcomes change, he bloody well worships change! He beats you, you don’t even remember any details of the game, just lots of dice showing ones, weird hallucinations of drop pods with faces, and an argument about why you can’t class a hive tyrant as a monstrous Chapter Master. You claim you meant to bring Azrael, your opponent points out you are miss-pronouncing Azrael, he says it isn’t prounced Azdroppodreal. You call him a drop pod. He asks if you are ok. Drop pod. And the thing about it all is drop that he doesn’t pod even know who you are. You aren’t even playing 40k. This man is a nurse, he has been trying to insert a catheter into you for 40 minutes while you scream “re-roll 1’s” at him.

    That’s why I don’t like change.

    • vlad78

      Amen brother.

      BTW stop talking to your minis, it’s unhealthy. You get attached.

      • Dave Bacon

        I gave a Carnifex a stern dressing down earlier after he got himself lost in the back yard.

    • Pimpcron

      This is completely in my vein of humor. I laughed so hard at this comment. Thank you for that. 😀

  • davepak

    Not all people hate change. Some thrive on progress – change is how we got out of the caves and explored and conquered the world.

    however – change without cause, or a positive without reason is chaos and waste.

    8th is good – could use a bit of tweaking here and there, but over all good (like better cover rules).

    A bit concerned with balance – this may be the best balanced we have had in a long time – but still need a bit more.

    I would personally love one very simple change – alternative activation. This would cure a lot of the other inherent issues.

    • vlad78

      Well movment limitations could also be a little more complexe. Terrains almost don’t count.

  • I love me some change… Spare change anyone? Anyone?
    No? And my child certainly likes change he can believe in when there’s a delivery in his nappy, but I digress…

    I have played 40k since ’92, and have seen plenty of change, some for the better, some for the worse.
    As long as the changes make sense and aren’t what I would consider bat-guano crazy, then sure, why not.
    Things I consider lamentably silly/crazy:
    Wolves riding wolves. Yes, I’m looking at Space Wolves. That was just silly. [And they didn’t even bring models out for a year or two].
    The Tau codex harping on about how they needed to be flexible and not have large wonder units (I can’t remember the exact wording), and then they introduce the giant mechas -_- In the same codex where they had been saying how against the Tau way of war they are…

    Oh well…

    • Crablezworth

      The marketing team wrote some really “great fluff” about it and showed it to the game designers they hold hostage at gunpoint, who always seem to smile and nod.

  • MechBattler

    I like change when it’s for the better.
    Good Changes So Far-
    1. Monsters and Vehicles are relevant again.
    2. New AP system makes weaker weapons more useful while also toning down the stronger weapons.
    3. Streamlining the game by removing randomness such as scattering blasts and deep strikes.
    4. Simplifying the Psychic system back to a 2 dice test.

    Bad Changes So Far –
    1. Gimping the number and variety of psychic powers available.
    2. Removing the To Hit table for close combat. It didn’t slow anything down and really only takes a few minutes to learn.
    3. Giving vehicles a 360 degree arc of fire. Just because armor facing is gone, doesn’t mean weapon facing should go out the window.

    Those are just some of the obvious ones that stuck out to me. Anyone else got any to add?

    No system is perfect, but I honestly wish they would do more open testing with their player base before selling rules books and issuing FAQs. I think they’d benefit greatly from a “beta” phase of sorts where they offer test rules for free and ask for feedback so they have a bigger pool of test players than the few dozen they have in the company or whatever it is. I think a lot of people would get on board with that.

  • Graham Bartram
  • Davewasbaloo

    FWIW, I love V8. But I have been a gamer for over 35 years, so I am used to rule changes and new minis

  • Richard Mitchell

    So…buy more Primaris Marines? Seriously though, this article makes a lot of sense. When Mkii WarmaHordes moved to Mkiii my biggest issue was not adapting to the big changes (since the core was largely the same) it was adapting to the small and significant tweaks. But I just started small and kept at it, now I am really enjoying the new ruleset. Change is always hard but on the flip I ended up trying out some new games that I still like and I am even more into the Mkiii ruleset and exploring it.

  • Timotheus

    And I find myself wondering why so many people welcome changes so much. I get that a lot of people like the new playstyle of the game, can’t say much about or against that. But I myself am mostly interested in the story/atmosphere and model/design part of the GW-universe. And concerning these aspects (for me) GWs heights clearly lie in the past. For me personally it peaked with the release of the Witch Hunter Codex in the third edition and got nothing but down from there on with slight uppers in form of Codex Deathwatch and the Mechanicus releases in terms of miniature design. Most of the time I could simply ignore newer publications and releases, but beginning with gathering storm and peaking with the return of Guilliman and the arrival of the Primaris I can’t close my eyes to the fact that GW is ruining all further releases for me as well as invalidate everything I love about the hobby and the universe. And that’s why I hate the Primaris, the same reason I hate Stormcast Eternals. They all even don’t look bad, some of them are beautiful sculpts. But they stand for a new soulless sorrounding universe driven by the moneymaking of it’s producing company. Making fun of the impressive stories and miniatures I love so much. So yeah, I pretty much hate everything new from GW for a reason and no one will keep me from it. Nor has anyone to understand it. Cheers.

    • Mira Bella

      I feel the same way.
      It’s really sad. :/

  • GnomesForge

    Its very simple. It takes significantly more time, effort and money to get a successful wargame together than the interim periods of stability. From buying, painting, learning rules and Terrain life simply moves too fast to keep up with GWs ever shifting landscape to squeeze out more profit.

    Keep your change i’m done. Staying right here with 7th and HH.

  • Chad Michael O’Carroll

    Change is fine but sometimes painful. Started an empire army that was great. Spent a lot of time and effort on it. But before I could get the knightly orders to round it out, AOS happened. It was a good fresh change but it also gave a big two finger salute to many. (Sorry for those collecting tomb kings). It just seems that there could be a way to have an option to finish what you start or go back. I liked 7th edition but the books were discontinued and hard to find.