40k: CSM Legion Tactics Spotted

The first image of the Chaos Marine Legion powers arrived – come help decipher the mystery:

The next (blurry) image from Codex CSM are doing the rounds courtesy of the French.

image via B&C’s Archaeinox

General Notes:

It’s in French

This looks fairly similar in layout to the Codex Space Marines charts.

 

The Iron Warriors and Emperor’s Children have been revealed earlier:

 

Partial Translations

Here is a list of Chapter Traits that has been doing the rounds on various forums the past day:

Night Lords: -1 ld for each NL unit within 6 of an enemy. This stacks to a min of ld 1 for the enemy.

Word Bearers: Re-roll failed moral dice.

Black Legion: +1 ld and can always advance and shoot – or gain bonuses or no modifiers to advancing and shooting.

Alpha Legion – Scout ability – like deepstrike, but 12 inches away from enemy units.

World Eaters – Units in close combat are immune to morale.

All CSMs: All CSM units get the same “Objective Secured” ability Loyalist Space Marines have.

 

~Get out your magnifying glasses, google translate and do some comparisons.  What do you guys think?

  • MarcoT

    Black Legion seems to make little fluff sense and word bearers have a pointless benefit. Good stuff otherwise.

    • BrassWitch

      Black legion have little going on for them other than “they were good at stuff” so it makes IMO,kinda like the Ultramarine equivalent.

      • Malisteen

        Black Legion’s deal is that they focused on taking down the Empire while the other legions all got distracted fighting each other or pursuing some god or other’s inscrutable agenda. Even now, with the galaxy torn apart by warp storms and Terra at the most vulnerable it’s ever been, The Black Legion continues the campaign towards Earth while most if not all of the other Legions have abandoned their pledges, instead peeling off to establish their own petty territories.

        The Black Legion trait was the right place to put something that specifically targeted Imperial armies. It might have been more situational (maybe, I’ve heard different takes on the translation of that ability, and some of them have made it sound all but unusable, and I’ll take situational over ‘situationless’ any day), but it would have been a better reflection of their character.

        Supposedly their stratagem at least has that feel to it, re-rolling ones to hit against Imperial units, though that becomes somewhat redundant if you have a lord around.

        • BrassWitch

          Isn’t that the purpouse of the “death to the false emperor” rule? I don’t think what black legion got is the most interesting, but to me it works fine enough.

        • Darren Mills

          As a long time black legion player I’m super happy with this trait. It’s reflective of their fighting style (as I think it should be.) not their super hatred of the emperor.

    • The first image of the Chaos Marine Legion powers arrived – come help decipher the mystery:

    • dave long island

      That’s the spirit: Stay positive! 🙂

      • MarcoT

        Was I that negative? Didn’t intent to, the majority seems fine.

        • dave long island

          No, not at all. I’m just being a goof, lol 🙂

    • Lion El’ Jonson

      I reckon it fits the Black legion fluff. They were always known for going for the throat in close quarters gunfights/melee back when they were the Sons of Horus. The rules allow you to play them as a rapid assault force.

      And the leadership represents their eminence as the most cohesive/mightiest Chaos space marine force in the 41st millennium, as well as their commitment to the long war.

      • Malisteen

        the translation I’ve most heard for that ability is that it allows them to count ‘rapid fire’ weapons as ‘assault’ weapons if they want to. If that’s what it is, then it’s all but useless. Between deep strike and transports, if your guys are moving & shooting at all, then they’re probably in rapid fire range already, so they’re better off shooting those guns twice, with no hit penalty, and then charging, instead of moving an extra d6″ before shooting those guns only once, with -1 to hit, and not even being able to attempt a charge.

        Heck, it would only affect two types of guns – bolters (including the less important end of combi weapons) and plasma guns (which really don’t appreciate hit penalties).

        Hopefully that translation isn’t right, but we’ll see.

        • Lion El’ Jonson

          Well whatever the true rules are, I was more arguing the fluff premise behind it.

  • DrLove42

    Good to see my Word Bearers have a fairly useless benefit again. We were ribbish in the 7th ed legion book,id have been disappointes of we had actually got bettrr

    • petrow84

      Duhh, it is hard to please the chaos legions – you begged for 5 editions to get the ATSKNF rule for your marines, now you got it.

      • defensive

        It’s pretty rubbish.
        Considering that chaos marines and tac marines cost the same, but word bearers are basically giving up their legion trait, just to be on the same level as a basic marine.

        • Chaos marines have better options though, they can go two special or two heavy, they can take pistol and chainsword, etc.

          • Koen Diepen Van

            Just no. The option to change your bolter marines into walking cc marines is no compensation for haveing way worse rules but still cost the same. World bearers and Salamanders have the same cost the same stats and the most effective kit for 5 man is the same but the salamanders are way better.

        • Guido Hockmann

          Death to the false emperor?

          • defensive

            That rule sucks compared to ATSKNF
            A 10 man unit of CSM will get an average of 0.2 extra wounds against MEQ in combat.
            Compared to being practically immune to morale effects, it’s pitiful.

    • Brian Griffith

      Don’t knock it until you see what their stratagem, warlord trait, and artifact can do.

      All of these have synergies beyond just the legion trait.

      • CloakingDonkey

        Don’t listen to him, it’s a trap. They told me the same thing with Imperial Fists, now look what happened!

        • Fists got some legit strategems if I recall. Also as people start making enough terrain for this edition we might see cover become a thing again.

          • Exactly that. It is hardly the designers’ fault that people, expecially the tourney crowd, refuse to decorate their tables adequately, as intended.

          • Xodis

            Exactly why the rulebook should have had set tables for matches. That way we at least know the standard that GW based the ability on.

          • Drpx

            Or bring fortifications.

          • CloakingDonkey

            Fists got Bolter Tactics or whatever it’s called. I already forgot the name cause the ability was such unappealing trash.

    • Deacon Ix

      I’m not so sure it is useless – after losing whole squads to a failed Moral test re rolling it would be quite nice, in 30k the roll 3 dice and pick the lowest 2 is amazingly good – my WB are yet to break in 30k. Given it could be better the others do seem to have more of an immediate benifit but so far moral seems to be a fairly key part of the game so I am looking for anything that influences it. The last game of 7th I played was against Dark Angels and Necrons – I has 8 lvl 3 psykers and spammed summoning – it worked really well, you have to play to your strengths.

      • __

        I agree, I am looking forward to re-rolling morale checks on large units of cultists. With the rumoured re-roll summoning stratagem that we are also getting, I think word bearers are going to be a viable army in 8th

        • Charon

          Why? Cultists are not good currently, Poxwalkers do not suffer from morale issues and summoning in matched play is plain bad.
          So in short WB got 2 rerolls on abilities that are rarely used anyways.

          • Malisteen

            Cultists are good if you can bypass morale entirely. Black Legion and Red Corsairs can do this with special characters, Iron Warriors with their warlord trait, FW renegades & heretics with Enforcers. A reroll to morale, even under an apostles leadership aura, doesn’t really cut it though, at least IMO.

            Summoning actually has some potential, though, since you don’t have to pick what you’re going to summon when you make your army, just leave aside enough points to cover whatever options you want available. Lets it work like a mix & match sideboard basically, letting you tailor your list mid game to the needs of the moment. Not great, mind, but not terrible either, especially if you can re-roll the summoning roll to make it more reliable.

          • Charon

            Agree on the cultists. But even if you make them fearless or apply enforcers they are strictly worse than imperial guard in every aspect (losing d3 models instead of 1, worse armor, no options, no special rules,..). So even if you buff them to bypass morale, you get shut down by equivalent troop choices.

            I completely disagree on summoning.
            You have to forfeit movement on you character, risk his live and roll a random number just to summon a unit you already spent points on.
            Flexibility is a non factor as well as you already kind of choose the uits you want to summon when setting points aside. If you just randomly set aside points you end up with unspent points in reinforcement limbo.
            It is more like an unreliable and risky way of deepstrike with no real benefit. The mix & match sideboard ist not really a biggie as you are restricted by dice roll and mark restrictions too.

          • Malisteen

            Cultists aren’t there to win fire fights, they’re there to keep enemy melee units off your havocs and rapiers and doritos and earthshaker batteries. Chaos can’t take imperial units, so it doesn’t matter that cultists are worse than they are, what matters is, if you can bypass the morale issue, they’re better than most any chaos alternative for that particular job, and in particular are better than any Heretic Astartes unit if you’re trying to keep in faction for legion bonuses.

          • Charon

            There are way better unts for that (hello poxwalkers and brimstones) that are cheaper.
            So even we would take into account an enforcer, you just end up with a renegade unit (no WB) anyways and the mitigation of the morale issue has nothing to do with the WB trait.
            The reroll doesnt bypass the morale issue. It basically mitigates up to 5 damage und is pretty unreliable in that.

          • Malisteen

            I agree that the WB trait is no good for cultists. Cultists are too weak and tend to field in numbers too large. WB trait is something to consider in squads of 10 to 20, not 5 elite dudes and not 30 to 40 chaff. I have not here or elsewhere argued in favor of word bearers cultists. Cultists are something to consider only if you can bypass their morale entirely, such as w/ the iron warriors warlord trait or Abaddon, in which case they’re worth considering if you’re fielding a pure heretic astartes detachment or army. There are several army builds that I could see favoring large cultist blocks over MSU chaos marine squads for compulsory troop slots, again provided they can make the cultists immune to morale outright.

          • Charon

            The problem is there is basically no CSM unit in the 10 – 20 range.

          • Malisteen

            I guess that’s where we disagree.

        • Nyyppä

          Nothing suggests that they would be vible.

      • Nyyppä

        Why do you play blobs of marines. The absolute max squad size for CSM and SM is 5. Even if you are down to the last man you are still more likely to pass the test than to fail it.

        • Deacon Ix

          Ignoring rerolls and buffs – CSM sgt ld is 8
          kill one model, effective ldship 7
          chance of failing 41.66% and at least one model 8.33% chance of wiping out a whole 5 man squad
          kill 2 models eff ld 6
          chance of failing 58.33%, 16.66% chance of wiping out a whole 5 man squad

          • Charon

            Your math is way off or you are stuck in 7th.

            New way: Casualties + D& compared to ld.
            Ld is 8, so you need to lose 3 squad members and roll a 6 to lose an additional CSM
            3 + 6 = 9 – 8 =1
            The chance for that to happen is 16,666 %
            So basically if you are in a rea threat your 5 man squad could be wiped by morale, you already lost your squad anyways.

          • Deacon Ix

            You’re right – I was thinking of deamonic instability in 7th :-/ my bad – not just me tho and the the guys I play against have multiple Degrees and Phds… Doh!

          • Deacon Ix

            On the plus side it does make the WB trait better than I have previously thought

          • Charon

            By better you mean “worse”
            It has basically zero effect on most units.

          • __

            Hell of a lot better than re-rolls to wound buildings

          • Charon

            I would agree if reroll to wound buildings was the only part of the trait.

          • Karru

            Yeah, I mean, how good the trait would be if you could ignore cover as well… Oh wait.

          • Nyyppä

            Hell of a lot worse than ignoring cover.

        • Malisteen

          Given the multiple benefits for large squad sizes – powerful unit-targeted buffs in stratagems & psychic powers; front loading attacks in the combat phase – I don’t think larger squads are nearly as unworkable as you do. And as soon as you do start taking larger squads, those morale bonuses start to matter quickly. Especially if you happen to be playing against someone like Night Lords who can stack leadership penalties in the -3 to -5 range pretty easily.

          • Nyyppä

            Name one such buff that can be spammed.

          • Malisteen

            Who said anything about spamming? spamming and big units are largely mutually exclusive. If your units are big, you only end up with room for a few of them in your army. Maybe a couple big units and a few small ones.

          • Charon

            I guess you havent met 2 points brimstones or 3 points conscripts yet?

          • Malisteen

            I’m talking about running heretic astartes armies, here.

          • Nyyppä

            I did, because 1 buffed squad is useless regardless of it’s size.

          • Charon

            None of these buffs can be spammed, the units that benefit from such buffs are specialised and the night lord example is pretty off as the reroll doesnt prevent anything. It just randomly saves a few more lives or costs even more lives.

  • BenTheMan

    Thanks for the General Note that the text on the picture is french.
    I was already wondering about that strange English….

  • Brandon Prouty

    woot useless Nightlords again! ha!ha!

    • Brian Griffith

      If you take Raptors, it stacks.

    • Ravingbantha

      Stackable -1 to moral can be huge. Kill one or two guys from each enemy unit, and force them to take a more check. If there’s enough NL units nearby, they will most likely fail and loose a few more.

    • euansmith

      I guess it promotes using MSU Nightlords and clustering around units to Battleshock them to death. I wounder if “each NL unit” includes independent characters?

      BOO!!!

      • Brian Griffith

        Or massing raptors in the darkness, using their keening sonic cries to herd the enemy into killzones.

        It’s not too hard to make this sound fluffy, and with just two units of raptors (which can deep-strike) positioned properly, those morale rolls start to get a bit… scary.

      • Jacob

        It does. Works for infantry and bikers from the sources I’ve seen.

        • Brian Griffith

          Yeah, you could pull it off with bikers too. I just keep harping on raptors because they come out of the can with an ability that makes this even more effective.

          • Deacon Ix

            Effectively adding 2 to every moral test out of the box 😀

          • Painjunky

            Spawn too.

      • karloss01

        The Night Lords article is out on the GW community site – it stacks up to -3.

    • Deacon Ix

      Every -1 to ld is potentially another kill – you just have to start forcing moral tests… and it stacks…

      • Nyyppä

        That will almost never matter. All the opposing squads are either fearless or low model count+high morale combinations.

        • Deacon Ix

          Fearless is not nearly as prevalent in 8th as in 7th, I know there are a couple of units but I can’t name them off the top of my head, Orks are an issue, and High leadership is what this negates, even Necrons coming in at ld 10 are testing at 8 within 1″ of a Nightlord raptor – before losing any models (7 after losing 1 and so on)

          • Nyyppä

            True. Still, no point in playing blobs since MSU is just better in every way. MSU does not suffer from morale losses, almost ever.

          • Deacon Ix

            It really depends – SM and CSM yes, MSU is the way forwards, but some like convicts are awesome as a blob of 50 – you can (generally) only give an order to a single unit per VoC model suddenly you have 50 models firing twice, 5 squads of 10 and you can only give the order to 1 – stick a Commisar and a Zealot in there and suddenly you have a very worrying amount of dice being thrown around.

          • Nyyppä

            Yeah, that works. Literally none of those rules are present in CSM. Want to know how many cultists you need to kill to wipe out a 35 man cultist squad? 20. Guard unit of the same size needs 34 casualties.

          • Malisteen

            I’m not sure MSU will stay king, not if we keep seeing the sort of powerful unit buffs from psychic powers and stratagems that the SM and CSM books seem to feature. A 20 man squad with 5+ FNP via a spell and the ability to shoot twice via a stratagem is a lot scarier than a 5 man unit doing the same. Plus they can front-load their attacks in the combat phase – 4 20 man squads would give opposing units up to three more activations before they’ve made all their attacks.

          • Nyyppä

            Sure. Then they all die twice as fast anyway…

          • Malisteen

            they only die twice as fast if you’re suffering heavily from morale, which is while morale mitigation matters for such units. That’t the entire point of my argument – that these buffs make larger units worth taking, which make morale mitagation worth having.

            Apart from morale, they die slower, thanks to defensive buffs.

          • Charon

            If they are such a threat that you spend so much firepower on them, chances are you eradicate the unit before morale comes into play.

          • Nyyppä

            Not really. Smaller units actually get cover and can los block realistically. Smaller units rarely suffer from morale. Smaller units, thanks to transport rules do not suffer from being numerous in the context of deployment rules. Smaller units get more special weapons. Smaller units are tactically more flexible. MSU is harder to kill and temds to waste the opponent’s shots due to over killing it. And so on.

            Essentially there are zero consistently existing reasons to take anything not msu.

          • Charon

            You still want to target your best unit for the job. It is highly unlikely you target your 20 man CSM squad nobody cares for anyways. You let your prescienced Missile launcher havocs double tab. Or your 34 shots Fire raptor.
            Blobs are amazing if they are cheap and fealess (orks, nids, guard) but elite armies do not qualify for that. There is no benefit in numbers as you are still fewer than actual hordes and also forfeit a lot of options and firepower if you do so.

          • Malisteen

            The fire raptor isn’t a legal target for that stratagem. Let your 20 man noise marine squad shoot twice. Or your 10 man plasma terminator squad. Or let your 16 man berzerker squad swing a third time in melee. All of these units are solid contenders for unit-scale buffs, and all are in a unit size to leadership range where they appreciate morale boosts, even those that fall shy of blanket immunity.

            Cultists blobs I agree won’t care. MSU I agree won’t care. But there is potential for heretic astartes units that fall between those extremes.

          • Charon

            Both units you mentioned are extremely expensive and extremely fragile. They will be focused and drop dead before they reach any range they are worthwhile. Your berzerkers are footslogging, Your noise marines are 24″. Morale is the least of your problems here as you dont have much other units and they are too big to hide completely.
            As soon as a unit gets focussed (and that big units draw lots of attention) morale becomes a non issue as you do not survive to roll your ld dice anyways. You are talking about 33 – 400 points in one unit here.

          • Malisteen

            the berzerkers can drop in a kharybdis then warptime into easy charge range. The noise marines are 30″ range, 36″ with warptime, and can can be given the slaanesh buff for a 5+FNP in addition to their armor to mitigate their fragility. And if none of that is enough, they can also drop in a kharybdis to just deploy in range.

            The terminators just drop in range, or at least they do if you warp time them. Between a drake or two forcing withdrawals from first turn charges, and plasma terminators deleting one or two units from the table entirely, and some defensive buff being layered on top of them, it’s very possible that your opponent won’t be able to focus enough fire to remove the unit completely, and will be relying on morale to pick up the slack.

            A lot of that is dependent on getting warp time off in order to get into position after screens have pushed your deployment back, but so it goes.

          • Charon

            So you are throwin over 700 points of reserves at your opponent while the measy est of your 800 points is removing that shield of 600 points worth of conscripts (200 models)? Impressive. But not gonna happen.
            The investment is way to big and too fragile to ever make its points back against and opponent who is not asleep during the game.
            You still try to create a deathstar unit and keep stuffing points into it whichout getting any return value.
            Berzerkers are amazing in small numbers so they have an actual chance to bind as much astray units as possible while dealing enough attacks to make them a credible threat you want to back away from.
            A singular threat in the form of one big unit just leads to excess damage and an opponent who happily points all guns at the only threat on the table.

          • Nyyppä

            You can’t cast warptime twice and this tactic of yours gives no options to not do that.

      • CloakingDonkey

        I think this is being hugely underestimated here. There’s not even the 50% threshold for the check like there used to be… just kill a guy and they test. if you can get them down to LD 1, killing 1 squaddie will cause D6 removed models, not even mortal wounds. Even Primarines will just vanish… that sounds pretty damn strong to me 😀

        • Deacon Ix

          2D6-1(ld)+1(number of models killed) models 🙂 but yeah, you have to play to the strengths.

    • Karru

      I actually wouldn’t say that. Bikes, Independent characters and fast units like Raptors rushing the enemy line, making them 2-4 Ld would mean that even SM will lose models to morale. Provide heavy fire support using CSM squads and Havocs and see as the enemy army melts from morale checks alone no matter if they are an “elite army”.

      Since Fearless is rather rare this edition, Morale is finally meaningful.

  • Jacob

    Odd I’ve seen two other sources on facebook that say that the World Eaters get +1 attack when they charge.. one of the sources supposedly had even confirmed the evidence. Will be interesting to see who is correct.

  • Krizzab

    nightlords spaming gonna hurt.

  • Painjunky

    I’m taking 2 units each of NL raptors and spawn.
    Evil smile… Mad laughter.

  • AircoolUK

    Time to make some ill informed snap judgements without waiting for warlord traits etc…

    • orionburn

      Can’t wait for the six articles on ranking the winners/losers and subsequent follow-up articles saying that the other articles were speculation without having all the info but now we need to speculate more without having all the info.

  • Damon Sherman

    man, I’m really tempted to pick up Alpha legion again.

  • CloakingDonkey

    wow. Those Night Lord and Black Legion ones seem pretty sweet. It’s interesting. I always thought the Night Lords look really silly with their bat wing helmets and sick 90s lightning bolt airbrush jobs…. apparently they are totally terrifying though. Get spooked citizens of the grimdark!

  • Nyyppä

    Oh ffs. WB are just SM but a lot worse in this edition. 😀

    • Deacon Ix

      Very true – the WB trait brings them inline with a basic SM… hadn’t thought of it that way… at least we generate an extra dice in CC against IMPERIUM forces in CC! (this was actually quite good in my last fight against guard), lets hope there are some good Warlord traits…

      • Nyyppä

        The warlord trait is not going to give them army wide rerolls to everything and then some which would bring them in line with the Salamanders.

    • Karru

      I mean, at least it isn’t something worthless like “re-roll failed summoning tests lol” or “Ultramarines re-roll everything they fail when playing against Word Bearers”.

  • Severius_Tolluck

    Night lords hands down are amazing! That is pretty darn good!

  • Talos2

    That emperors children one is a bit of a mess, always fight first even if you didn’t charge, though if they charged you it’s not always, alternate with them. Slick

    • Malisteen

      It’s the same as every ‘fights first’ ability, so…?

      • Xodis

        Yeah, those are usually handed out to units or in bubbles, not spread between an entire army though lol

        • Malisteen

          That shouldn’t make it any more or less confusing, though.

          • Xodis

            I didnt read it as a failure to comprehend, but as in a mess to deal with.

          • Malisteen

            How? Combat phase is straight forward:

            1) alternate activation of all units with a first strike ability (the most common being charging), starting with the player whose turn it is.

            2) alternate activation of all other units in combat, starting with the player whose turn it is.

            The only awkward hassle comes from stratagems that interrupt that normal process, not from rules like the Emperor’s Children trait just shift units from category 2 to category 1.

          • Xodis

            Again, you’re seeing this from a perspective of rules confusion, I read it as a mess with to deal with strategically in game, as in other than shooting these guys to death (which they have some awesome weapons) you dont want to deal with them in melee because chances are high the entire army is going first.

          • Malisteen

            ah, ok.

        • Rasheed Jones

          Slaanesh daemons have it army wide though.

          • Xodis

            Yeah, but they dont have any good ranged weapons like Noise Marines/Emperors Children CSM, so its ok to stand back and just shoot them.

    • Geronimo32509

      It’s actually extremely simple.

  • Xodis

    Yes, YES! I can feel the power of chaos flow through me!!!!!

    I’ve taken my first step towards disappointment because I am liking the Black Legion trait!!

    • Malisteen

      Really? When do you find yourself advancing with Black Legion units? Between transports, deep strike, and the hit penalty for moving & shooting heavy weapons, I’ve found so far in 8th that if my boots are on the ground and moving at all, then they’re in range to at least attempt a charge, and would rather be doing that then moving an extra d6″.

      And some translations I’ve heard of that ability have it only working for rapid fire weapons, and even then working by counting them as assault weapons, so you wouldn’t even get to shoot twice at half range. Hopefully those translations are wrong, because I can’t ever see a situation where the extra d6″ of movement would be worth giving up half your shots, let alone taking the remaining half at a penalty to hit.

      • Xodis

        I advance quite often, because Rhinos were always easy to disable and dismember, especially when its painted red and my opponent knows whats in there.

        I agree its not some magical OMG so OP ability, even if better than your translation, but its nice and that free +1 Leadership could go a long ways.

        • Malisteen

          If what’s in there is berzerkers, then they probably don’t have much to shoot with when advancing anyway, since axes & chainswords seems to be the favored set up for them right now.

          And some translations of that rules I’ve seen only have it working for rapid fire weapons (and even then working by turning them into assault weapons, so you’d get half as many shots, and even then with a penalty to hit), so it might not even work for their 2-3 plasma pistols.

          Otherwise, I find a heldrake or two in the opposing army’s face turn one is usually enough to see my rhinos safely advancing for at least a turn, after which your guys are in charge range anyway.

          • Xodis

            I havnt got to play 8e yet, but Im looking forward to that. Im keeping pistols on my Berserkers though…at least 1 of the squads.

            I didn’t mean the red ones are the only ones that get blown up though lol. Will be great for Plague Marines as well who have only a 5″ movement and some safety in Super charging. Same for Rubric Marines, even a single shot is better than none if their vehicle gets crippled.

      • Bootneck

        Who says you have to advance forward? Its just extra movement which you could always use to retreat.

  • bobrunnicles

    I’ve been a little out of the loop lately – should I assume that since they aren’t mentioned here that Thousand Sons will be getting their own codex at some point like Death Guard?

    • Xodis

      1Ksons and DeathGuard are the only 2 Legions not in the book because they are getting their own. Good for them, sad for World Eaters and Emperors Children.

      • Brian Griffith

        Or it just means those two are getting their codexes later and thus needed to be included here.

        • Xodis

          Still said if its that much later.

          • Brian Griffith

            Well, the only working definition of “that much later” we have is “not one of the ten codexes coming out this year.

            And of those ten, nearly a third of them are Chaos codexes. Possibly more if Daemons come out this year.

            I don’t think it’s unreasonable to wait a little longer.

          • Xodis

            I didn’t say unreasonable, only sad (and I meant sad instead of said lol)

  • piglette

    I like that rule for my EC raptors.

  • Koen Diepen Van

    No offence but how are these even close to each other or some of the marine ones. This is why these kind of rules sux for games. It just makes you feel crappy about your paint scheme.

    • Brian Griffith

      …some of these are identical to loyalist chapter traits.

      And of the ones that aren’t, some of them are decently powerful if you play your strategy right.

      • Koen Diepen Van

        By some you mean one? The one that was meh for the loyalist 2? Or do you mean the one that is the same as ATSkNF? And yes some of them are good but that is the point. Why does gw think it is ok to penalize/award ppl for their paint scheme? What do these rules actualy do other than make some chapters/legion/sept/clan worse or better then others? It’s not like the space wolfs codex where there are completely different units, and characters. No it’s just the same army whit better or worse rules . How fun would risk be if the red pieces where some how just better then the yellow ones.

        • Bootneck

          Iron warriors is similair to Imperial fist.
          Black Legion is similair to Ultrasmurfs
          Death Guard have a better version of Ironhands

          Also I have seen other rumors differing from the above.

          Alpha Legion having -1 to Hit over 12″ like Raven Guard.

          • Bootneck

            And I should imagine Dark Angels will have some equally dull ability similar to Word Bearers. Which chews me up as DA player..

          • Lucas Miguel

            Uh, Black Legion is NOT the same. Advancing and shooting is not nearly the same as falling back and shooting.

          • Bootneck

            No its not the same hence why I said SIMILAR . . .

            Both get +1LD and the ability to move and shoot when ordinarily they could not.