40K: Return of the Death Star – Colin McCade Interview

The 40K army you love to hate is back in spades… I’m talking about you know what – DEATH STARS !!!

Wow I feel all squishy inside just saying those two beautiful words … hurrrrrr !

Last weekend the biggest event in the state of Texas took place, Wargamescon and a fella by the name of Colin McCade was able to resurrect the Death Star using the ever wonderful Imperium. So let’s dive right into the interview.

1. First tell us about yourself and what got you into the hobby.

Well I am currently in college about to finish up my engineering degree. I’ve played 40k for about 10 years now. What got me into the hobby was a grade school friend telling me about a store called Games Workshop and a cool game it had called Warhammer 40,000. His mom drives us there for him to show me and when I walked in the first thing that catches my eye was the old box of metal Thousand Sons (I had a huge love of ancient Egypt as a kid). From there it was like a snowball rolling down the mountain and the snowball was more and more of my money rolling away from me.

2. Now would you be so kind as to share your army list with us?

Certainly here it is:

(Please note none of the codices were live for WGC and thus I didn’t get to use any of the new stuff.)

Super-Heavy Auxiliary Detachment

Roboute Guilliman: 18 PL, 360 pts
Warlord trait: Tenacious Fighter

Vanguard Detachment

Lord Kaldor Draigo: 12 PL, 240 pts
-Psy Powers: Smite, Gate of infinity, Hammerhand

Ordo Malleus Inquisitor in Terminator armor: 7 PL, 105 pts
Psyker, force sword, storm bolter
Psy Powers: Terrify, Smite

Culexus Assassin: 5 PL, 85 pts

Culexus Assassin: 5 PL, 85 pts

Culexus Assassin: 5 PL, 85 pts

Culexus Assassin: 5 PL, 85 pts

Culexus Assassin: 5 PL, 85 pts

Callidus Assassin: 5 PL, 80 pts

Vanguard Detachment

Celestine: 11PL, 200 pts
-1x Geminae Superia

Ultramarine Librarian: 6 PL, 105 pts
-Force sword, bolt pistol
Psy Powers: Smite, Null Zone, Veil of Time

Eversor Assassin: 4 PL, 70 pts

Eversor Assassin: 4 PL, 70 pts

Eversor Assassin: 4 PL, 70 pts

Vindicare Assassin: 5 PL, 90 pts

Vindicare Assassin: 5 PL, 90 pts

Retributor Squad: 10 PL, 94 pts
-+1 retributor, x4 Heavy bolters

3. How did you go about designing your army what were your major sources of inspiration?

Well to start off 8th edition I had been using my 30k Death Guard as a counts as Ultramarine list since it was the same play style I had used with it. Basically it was Guilliman Devastator spam with 2 vindicares, a callidus, conscript bubble wrap and some Custodes sprinkled in for flavor. I immediately realized with maelstrom I didn’t have a good midfield presence or solid way to successfully get to my opponents objectives in their deployment zone. So I was looking at stuff that could deepstrike when I noticed all the assassins could…. I hadn’t been doing that with mine. So I had realized Guilliman lets all Imperial units reroll 1’s to hit and since all assassins hit on 2’s…. Well you get the idea.

I wanted to keep Guilliman in the list since he was such a badass and since I wanted to keep him alive to get him across the field and the Culexi solved that problem. Celestine and Draigo are each there for their own advantages, such as attacking flyers in melee and more psychic presence. Adding in a Librarian for Null Zone basically made it to so those 3 powerhouses would laugh at most anyting in melee. I had played GK in 5th edition so that’s why I wanted to use Draigo and after facing off against Celestine a bunch, she was included as well. The first tourney I went to after eighth edition dropped a guy was running Guilliman, Celestine, Ravenspam and Devastors… But I never wanted to go down the Ravenspam route. I originally had a GK apothecary in the list to heal Draigo but I realized I didn’t need that buff and Terrify to keep stuff from killing my assassins in overwatch worked better. So that was basically what led me to making this army. Its surprisingly scary how much shooting damage the army can put out too. It can take out a Stormraven just with shooting on average rolls.

4. What armies did you face off against each round and how did you fare against each of them?

The armies I faced against and scores (we used ITC combined arms missions and scoring):

Game 1: 19-0 vs Guilliman with razorbacks, ravens and scouts

The guy was pretty smart and didn’t fly his ravens toward me like I hoped he would. I basically trudged across the field in a turn to make it into close combat on turn 2 and from there I was about to table him by turn 5. He had a Spartan too which was surprisingly more trouble than I thought it would be.

Game 2: 19-0 vs Admech with Robots and Onagerspam

This guy’s list just wasn’t built to handle a list like mine at all. To his credit if he had faced ravens or Knights he would’ve murdered them. But with a ton of neutron lasers, he was banking on 6’s with only half the time having rerolls. The terrain also allowed me to get up to his line while suffering minimal damage. I sniped his one datasmith dead turn 1 after he changed his robot blob to shooting protocols so they could never move to get LOS on my assassins. From there a combo of Guilliman and Null Zone made quick work of them. I ended up tabling him or almost did by end of turn 5 and we called it there. So far I had Draigo and Celestine and 3 assassins die both games.

Game 3: 10-9 loss for me vs GSC

Three BIG mistakes I made that cost me the win. It was the ITC kill points mission which saved me from losing completely. The first mistake was I didn’t push my army towards the center quick enough to via for the king of the hill tertiary point and make him come to me. The second was I went after one of two Patriarchs he had that I thought was his Warlord and killed it (but my opponent informed me after the fact that the other one was actually his Warlord… Oh well). The third mistake was letting him move a Chimera he forgot about in the shooting phase which next turn then he moved again to deny me a maelstrom point (we would’ve tied on maelstrom if I hadn’t let him do that… Guess I should have been more of a stickler then and like the names people are calling my list – haha). If I had done those differently maybe it could’ve been a 15-4 swing in my favor. He was a good player for the most part so it didn’t bother me too much. If we had been able to go turn 6 it could’ve swung differently – who knows!

Game 4: 19-0 Win vs Magnus with Brimstone, Demon Prince and Havocspam

This was against a buddy of mine from our hometown. He set up pretty aggressively as he should but made sure I couldn’t deepstrike anywhere in his backfield too close to his Havocs. I let him go first and he Warp Times Magnus to kill a Vindicare in melee… Ouch. From there I move my whole army back a bit to deal with Magnus. I have the Librarian cast Null Zone on Magnus and between that and all the characters and Culexi shooting at him I had dropped him to two wounds which Guilliman then finished him off in melee. My Eversors and Callidus made some long charges to get at his Havocs and I ended up wiping out most of them. He then attempted the kill 3 for 3 maelstrom objective and barely failed to do so because I had one Eversor left with 2 wounds after he killed 2 other assassins. From there it was me about to march forward and start mowing his Brims down before getting to his princes but he ended up conceding the game. He’s come along a way as a player from the first time I played him.

Game 5: 19-0 win vs Guilliman with Tactical Marine and Stormtalonspam

This was a tough list just because of all the Guilliman rerolls on all those Marines… lol! He had some Inceptors drop down and try to flank me but that failed. I basically harried his whole army with my Eversors, Callidus and Vindicares while my main blob moved up and killed his Talons. I then proceeded to rip through his Marines too. I Null Zoned his Guilliman which got taken out by my own Guilliman. He told me he doesn’t concede so last turn I walk RobG over to his Stalker (also his last model) and Guilliman carved it up like a turkey on Thanksgiving, resulting in a tabling.

5. What type of armies are your toughest challenge?

The toughest armies for me to face with this list would be something that could spam either flamers, snipers, Dark Reapers or big hordes. Any of those would give my list trouble. I laughed when I started hearing that this list broke eighth edition. Eighth edition is fine for the most part asides from alpha strikes. People just need to learn to adapt and they could deal with something like this army. It’s a whole new edition after all, why not a whole new way of thinking on how to play the game as well? I think I did that with this list as I had tons of people asking me during the weekend how this list worked and head scratches when looking at it on my display board.

6. What was your favorite game and why?

My last game without a doubt! Anyone in Texas 40k knows about Red Star Gaming and I had the pleasure to face one of their fearless leaders, Jay Pena, the last round. Anyone who knows Jay knows what an amazing guy he is and you get the most fun games of 40k with guys like him, and to do so on one of the top tables at a major GT is an even bigger honor. He rolled so many 6’s to hit in our game too. He killed way more of my list than anyone else did. Even the guy I lost to only killed as much as my first two opponents did.

7. Now that the tournament is over looking back what changes would you make to your army list and why?

Honestly, I probably wouldn’t. There’s nothing I would want to change but if I had to I would probably drop the Retributors and take another assassin and tack on a jump pack or some extra gear for the Librarian. The Retributors died quickly in 3/5 games. since they were the only non characters in my army and it just gets better with all these new codices dropping.

8. Is there anything you’d like to add to this interview? Feel free to do so.

Thanks again for interviewing me, I enjoyed answering your questions. I would also like to thank the WargamesCon TO’s, Chris, John and Joe, for running the event smoothly despite the BCP app crashing! Also, my friends Nicolas X and Kiely M for helping me paint Celestine, RobG and test the list a little.

I’m looking forward to how 40k will change in the upcoming months as well with more codices being released. I think 40k has a bright future!

Well there you have it straight from the mouth of the proverbial horse… And irregardless whether or not you like Death Stars it’s already back again with a vengeance !!!

~Have at it folks

  • Heinz Fiction

    Do these assassins walk in single file to hide their number? 😉

    I bet cheap character spam will get adjusted sooner rather than later…

    • EvilCheesypoof

      Yeah I imagine they’ll either tweak the character targeting rule to exclude other characters screening for characters, and/or put character limits per detachment.

      Either of those two kind of no brainer fixes kills this kind of list, and I doubt they ever wanted this list to happen.

      • Karru

        As has been stated roughly billion times already, the best fix is to return the obviously missing rule from the Assassins, “Unique”.

        • I_am_Alpharius

          I’m not so sure on that one. I imagine the fix will be similar to the units with keyword “flyers”. I’d hazard GW may go down the route of stipulating that units with the keyword “characters” can’t hold or contest objectives unless they have ‘x’ amount of starting wounds – say 5/6?

          • Brettila

            Well, I’m not totally up on Imperials, but don’t some detachments need troops?

        • EvilCheesypoof

          Right I said that same thing in the other article, but that would only fix the assassin part of the equation and not the entire idea of spamming characters that screen each other which is one of the reasons the list works.

          • Brian Carraway

            Does that really work with anything other than the cullexus? Sure, you can protect a character but you don’t need other characters to do that, any unit can do that.

          • EvilCheesypoof

            Don’t know off the top of my head, but GW could certainly future proof it if they don’t want “all character lists” to be a thing considering characters can be tankier and harder to kill than some units for the same cost.

          • Karru

            Like Brian said, fixing Assassin’s would fix the problem real quick. Even if people changed to something like Captains with Storm Shields, they would still most likely be boned by regular bolter fire if enough is shot at them.

            The thing is that Culexus have the hard to hit thing going for them, which is the reason why this list is so broken and awful.

            Characters blocking other characters isn’t that broken. I have never, ever seen it happen beyond the Culexus.

          • ZeeLobby

            I really hate the idea of them fixing single list problems by changing game wide mechanics. That can not be good for the stability of the game.

          • Steven Hyche

            Its not really a single list problem. It causes a bunch of weird issues in the game when you deal with character spam. The demon prince spam list uses the same rule to get across the board and rip things apart.

            The main issue is declaring all weapons in a unit at the same time. Which means even if a character is at one wound all weapons for that unit must go into that character. It removes all tactics and choice and gives it to your opponent to control what you shoot at.

            Dont get me wrong its an amazing rule but characters screening characters breaks it a little and makes little sense theme wise.

          • ZeeLobby

            Yeah, I can see that.That makes sense. I just don’t want to go down this rabbit hole of fixing issues which could be fixed with unit restrictions by altering the core of the game instead. I mean I know why they do it, because they want people to buy 6 of the same assassins, but it doesn’t really do anything positive for the fluff or game…

          • It’s not.

        • ZeeLobby

          And then to liberally apply this rule and unit limitations across the game. Cause let’s be honest, as soon as assassin’s are fixed, something else will be spammed and broke.

          • Muninwing

            being in a room full of flammables doesn’t mean you shouldn’t bother putting out a fire because other things will burn anyway…

        • Why can’t there be a cabal of assasins though ?!

      • ToLiveIsToDie

        There isn’t actually a need to tweak those rules. I had the same opinion initially but the hard counters are easily accessible for every army be they flamers and psykers or spore mines and psykers. I don’t like the list above and I certainly don’t advocate for people to play that way especially because that list cannot hold up in a friendly game. Not because it is powerful but because it would crumble immediately to some of the easiest to get weaponry in the game.

        Infantry lines of any of the Imperium and most xenos armies would shred all but celestine and roboute. Tyranids have to take elites and some heavy choices but the most effective ones would be the cheapest. For the cost of roboute alone you would get 9 biovres which is 9 sporemines per turn with any 6’s resulting in mortal wounds to the unlike target and any misses becoming pure hazard for the advancing cheese. Then you field termagants, like 90-120 of them, with a prime or two for cheap synapse and a bunch of cult magus and your army becomes a mighty rolling tarpit that will only struggle versus celestine and roboute but with any luck you could get them with out too much trouble.

        • Steven Hyche

          Psychers do not work vs this list at all. The trick of the list is you can only target the assassins. The assassins can not be targeted by powers and all weapons count as bs,ws of 6+. Also all termies in the unit must target one assassin at a time and can not split fire.

          The other assassins are there to drop behind the line and murder your biovores.

          • ToLiveIsToDie

            How close can they drop, why wouldn’t you leave a unit of guants spaced around them to deny deepstrike? Psykers aren’t for the assassins, they’re there to get through the invul of roboute and celestine.

          • Steven Hyche

            You cant smite past the assassins.

          • ToLiveIsToDie

            Yes. I get that. That is why I said you use the spore mines to deal with the assassins. Sorry, I thought that spoke for itself since you can’t shoot past them with the biovores and the whole idea is to bubble wrap and tarpit with gaunts so that the mines can easily move close to the assassins and explode. It would likely take a few mines as I think each assassin is 4 wounds but as you pointed out you’d have to shoot each assassin one at a time. Since biovores field in units of 3 you could burst three shots at a time in the hopes you get lucky and make a hole in the culuxes line but if you don’t you get to place the mines as individual units and so long as as few survive you can melt your way through the assassins. Then push in with a gaunt blob and tie up whoever you need to in order to move up the maguses. Then, since the assassin’s cannot be targeted, everything beyond the assassins becomes a fair target. No doubt you’ll lose gaunts by the handful but that is their purpose. They just obstruct enemy movement and sure, maybe they get off a few extremely luck shots but you shouldn’t be counting on them for damage.

            If your opponent gets reckless and starts advancing with roboute and/or celestine then you can start smiting early. There are also a lot more points to work with here. Assuming you field 120 gaunts, 4 magus, and 9 biovores that is only 1000 points. Only half of your army. You could double everything across the board or maybe invest in some genestealers and a primus to charge the assassins. Since the primus modifies the roll not the WS the stealers could hit on 5’s. Also, since the above list includes an actual squad you could freely target them at any time with spore mines to try and get a few through. Not likely to be a huge success but you’d carve up the chief threat to the gaunts and maybe get mines close enough to deal with the vindicares.

          • Brettila

            So, how do all the other armies defeat this out of hand as you suggest? Say Chaos?

          • Muninwing

            yeah. it’s brilliantly, horribly exploitative as much as it is also brilliantly, horribly simple.

        • Brettila

          Wait, you’re advocating psykers as a counter to a pile of Culexus assassins? “Looks like you picked the wrong week to stop sniffing glue.”

  • Crevab

    Ah, an Engineer. That explains some things 😉

  • ILikeToColourRed

    how to deal with only hitting assassins on 6s
    bring hordes who dont care

    • Bring Flamers…..

    • Jared McWilliams

      If you have to hit modifiers you don’t only hit on 6s in 8th vs culexus. But yeah hordes don’t care, 16 Orks with Nob banner support kills a culexus in one assault phase with median rolls.

  • Jack

    My green horde would destroy this army.

    • Sean Barry

      So you think. Remember he beat a pre faq brimstone list.

      • Jack

        Nothing is unbeatable.

        • zeno666

          True, dice matters

          • I_am_Alpharius

            #dicerollsmatters

      • Brian Carraway

        Well Ork hordes could actually do damage where brimstones were basically targets since they couldn’t smite the assassin screen.

      • That’s impressive.

    • Jared McWilliams

      GSc, nid swam list can too. This list only works well against high cost armies that fire few shots that are high strength. It’s a rock paper scissors army, not a take all comes list. He only had 1 unfavorable matchup in his games.

    • Sorien

      Especially since the boys would still get the +1 from the waggh! banner nob so hitting the assassins on 5+ instead of 6+. Just gotta keep the banner out of LoS of the vindicares and conga line back to him.

  • bobbybooshay!!

    how to deal with only hitting assassins on 6sbring hordes who dont care

  • Kevin Sechrest

    Irregardless isn’t a real word. The word you’re looking for is regardless.

    • I_am_Alpharius

      This statement comes up everytime “irregardless” is used on this site and it get boring.

      Irregardless is a word, a non-standard one granted, but a word that’s been around for around a century (see Huffington Post article). If words like selfie</i, moobs and YOLO can enter the dictionary (see bbc article); I’m pretty sure we can all cope with the word irregardless.

      http://www.huffingtonpost.com/jonathon-owen/yes-irregardless-is-a-wor_b_4434749.html

      http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-37336564

      • wibbling

        Huff post is a daft place, the BBC hardly a paragon –
        syntactically the word ‘irregardless’ might exist, but it is incorrect to use it. As the man says, the correct term is regardless.

        While there are slang words in the dictionary, they are appalling ones that shouldn’t be there, existing mainly because of laziness or illiteracy – such as ‘math’ when the correct term is the plural.

        • I_am_Alpharius

          Each to their own.

        • I mean, they just added “Manspreading”, didn’t they? Oh the humanity….

          • Xodis

            Well they added the Harry Potter version to muggle as well….because we need a word for “non magical person” in this world of the supernatural…..

        • ZeeLobby

          A tabletop game blog used the equivalence of a slang word?! Halt the presses!

        • Thomas

          Yes, language should never evolve! We should still be speaking grammatically perfect Latin! No, cave-man grunts!

      • GravesDisease

        It’s as much of a word as “dethaw” (defrost + thaw), in that it’s an amalgam of two synonymous words that people get confused with. Irrespective + regardless.

        Irregardless is a double negative and actually means in respect to. Using the incredibly tired argument of common usage is fine and valid; but also utterly unconvincing.

        • I_am_Alpharius

          Each to their own. Language is a ever involving thing.

          • Severius_Tolluck

            so much so, an became an a

          • I_am_Alpharius

            Haha! Edited and sorted. Guess that is what you get, when you use predictive text…

          • A.P.

            Ill tell you what gets me is that Afternoon is one word but thismorning is not…someone
            please explain

          • I_am_Alpharius

            Haha – true!

            I believe it is a like ‘Goodnight’, ‘Goodnight’ and ‘Good Night’ both of which are absolutely correct and can be used. Yet why ‘Goodnight’ is written as a single word and not ‘Good Morning’.

            When you speak ‘Goodnight’ you don’t move your tongue from palate to the inner side of upper teeth while changing the words and say it like a single word. But in case of ‘Good Morning’ the last syllable of first word is ‘D’. Whereas the first syllable of second word i.e. ‘M’ is spoken using the lips which is completely different from the last syllable of the former. Thus while speaking there is no chance that ‘Good Morning’ may be spoken as a single words due to the way these words are spoken. Thus, they are written the way they are written because of the way we speak them.

            If people were to be real grammatical nit-pickers then you would argue that “this morning” should be linked by a hyphen; as in “this-morning”. As should “Afternoon” becoming “After-noon”. Hyphens are there to link two separate words related to an issue. However human laziness in writing leads to people dropping the hyphen; like in the case of email, which strictly should be e-mail or even more correct electronic-mail.

            Plus English is silly nonsensical language in the first place 😛

          • Rasheed Jones

            I think you mean ever evolving, and well simply put just because language evolves doesn’t actually mean words can be used for whatever until it comes into common use (I’ve seen this excuse used to justify using words entirely wrong). Not to say irregardless isn’t a word though.

          • I_am_Alpharius

            Whoops – predictive text strikes again..fixed 🙂

            Each to there own. Pettifogging a word stops being a word just because it declivities out of common use is asinine; we would have far smaller dictionaries if that were the case.

      • A.P.

        This argument for using poor English is old as well. If you want to use “non-standard” words, go ahead you can continue to look ignorant of the fact you are using a double negative and sadly enough other people are doing the same, Enough to have it recognized as acceptable due to pure ignorance. Loving this trend lately…

        • I_am_Alpharius

          Each to their own. Language is an ever evolving thing.

  • Andrew

    Oh great, pure cheese. Does anybody have some crackers and wine?

    • Fergie0044

      I see plenty of whine! *ba dum tish*

  • wibbling

    And again, no interest in the background, theme or even the game, just an ego. No, thank you. This is not 40K.

    • So when someone puts that down you dont play them, or ask if they have another list.

      I am planning on attending the GT Heat 2 at GW in the UK, and seeing that this type of thing is out there helps you plan for it if nothing else.

      • ZeeLobby

        Well, according to GWibbling it’s never GWs fault, there’s just mean mean people out there for him to insult.

    • zeno666

      This is what 40k looks like outside of your fantasy-world where GW is perfect.
      Also with more articles like this it will also spread.

      • ToLiveIsToDie

        “Fantasy-world” is a bit harsh. My guess is he likely plays local, friendly games and not the tournament style lists that we see above. To him/her this list is clearly outside the spirit of the word “game” because objectively speaking it isn’t sportsman-like. But that is because it is a competitive list and it is clear no gaming tournaments are built upon the notion of sportsman-like conduct but rather exploitation of rules to achieve the easiest possible win. It can’t even be said that there are impressive tactics with this list which in itself betrays the notion of this being a strategy game since the entire list is built upon a collection of very specific prohibitive rules with stat lines that are as flawless as they can get.

        I’m surprised that the winner let the GSC player move that chimera but I’m inclined to chalk that one up to hubris. He got cocky and started making mistakes with a list that almost couldn’t lose against any of his opponents. Kind of embarrassing really.

        • ZeeLobby

          You might be new here, but wibbling is a hardcore GW fanboy. He mocks and insults people who writes competitive lists, but when someone recommends that GW does a better job balancing the game, he insults them claiming that they need to learn to play better and that GW is flawless. That they just want balance to win. He really is in his own world.

          • ToLiveIsToDie

            I am a bit new since I only started lurking here when 8th was coming out. I didn’t realize there was history between you guys so I’ll keep clear until I have a more relevant comment. I actually thought it was being made by a newer player and didn’t want him to be discouraged by a seemingly harsh reply.

          • ZeeLobby

            Eh. There’s a history between the entire BoLS community and wibbling. He’s never really here to discuss anything in the comments section, which is really what the comments section should foster. Most of the time he just shows up, insults someone, and then never responds to responses. Him and Randy Randalman might even be the same person, who knows, lol.

          • Fergie0044

            Have we ever seen them in the same room together?

          • ZeeLobby

            Haha. It’d be interesting to pull the times of their responses and see if they were ever writing simultaneously.

          • Randy …

          • Lots of posters are irrelevant here .

        • Brettila

          Is it a competitive list or a b>ll$h!t exploitation outside all bounds of what 40k is supposed to be? Ask yourself truthfully. And PLEASE do not try the 8 yr old reply of, “That’s your opinion.” 40k is a game where the creators want you to build (buy) whole armies, with related books. They want us to have games where we both have fun. It really is too bad that this is a thing.

          • Look at the armies he was up against you don’t bring a knife to a gun fight at OK Corral.

    • Defenestratus

      Horus only warranted 4 assassins being sent after him.

      If only the Imperium had this “Colin McCade” around they could have saved themselves a whole bunch of trouble!

      • GravesDisease

        Colin McCade for Grand Master!!!

    • Lebowski1111111111

      dont like it, dont play it, problem solved. And i doubt you will see this in your casual basement game so why even worry about it.

      If i rolled up to my club and a guy was running this, he gets to face my 200 conscript BS list i have just for this type of occasion.

    • Strategery.

      this list is for tournaments. matched play. not open or narrative.

  • There’s a guy in one of our local groups already building this smh.

    • ToLiveIsToDie

      He’ll be disappointed if anyone brings any of the amazingly available hard counters. Really the hardest thing to deal with is the self-rezzing characters simply by virtue of Celestine being unlimited so long as she rolls a 4+ I think and then is able to revive others. That said, so long as you can spam smite 3 or 4 times which also isn’t hard you could take this list down relatively quickly. IG scout sentinels and a few of their primaris psykers and you’ve already got you necessities. Hellhounds to transport the psykers and to burn through the assassins and some conscripts to tarpit roboute while you focus down celestine especially since the hellhounds can be outfitted with the chem cannons.

      That about covers it.

      • That works if you have that hard counter. If you are running a casual TAC list, prepare for the cockhammer.

        • ZeeLobby

          Or if your faction simply lacks a counter, or has to spend a detrimental number of points for it. It makes more sense for this list not to exist than for people to have to change factions in order to beat it, haha.

          • ToLiveIsToDie

            I’m actually curious which faction lacks a flamer equivalent and psykers? I’m not super familiar with all of them and most of the videos I’ve seen demonstrate almost exclusively marines or just the same xenos lists over and over.

          • ZeeLobby

            Dark Eldar, Tau, Admech. Sure Imperials can ally solutions in, but Xenos don’t have that luxury. I mean if your a tournament player you probably don’t mind switching a faction frequently, but it’d be nice if someone showed up locally with this to have a chance.

          • ToLiveIsToDie

            Those three are definitely my weaker points for familiarity but I know Tau have flamers which handles half the problem. With the assassins down to flamers they should be able to neutralize celestine and roboute with saturation of high strength low AP weaponry unless I’m completely off my mark on this. Dark Eldar and AdMech I cannot recommend for as I’m truly in the dark on those except to say that admech can pull from other imperials right? And dark eldar still have flamer equivalents right? So dark eldar can follow the tau strategy and admech can pull some imperial guard and that should satisfy it.

          • Fergie0044

            Tau and Admech have access to flamers but they’re on fairly expensive units so spamming them would be difficult.

          • ToLiveIsToDie

            They’re on fairly expensive units for Tyranids as well since the removal of thorax weapons. I do understand your point though and at least nids have spore mines. I truly am unfamiliar with admech so I have no real counterpoint there except to pick up imperial guard allies. ZeeLobby pointed out that player may not desire to mix their armies in such a way which I also understand but it is a necessary evil when trying to counter a list such as the one presented.

          • ZeeLobby

            Theres just several problems when operating in a vacuum, which the above steps require. Tau have to sacrifice weapon systems that are valuable vs other lists, and their expensive. Dark Eldar players are tired of solving their problems with Eldar (another faction) and same goes for admech with IG (another faction). I never said that you couldn’t tailor a list to beat this list. The problem is that most competitive and even local settings don’t favor specialized lists all that well. While the assassin list can handle many lists without issue, the list you’d need to build to handle the assassin list would be vulnerable to a fair chunk of the rest of the game. And again, would require going outside your faction in some cases to find answers.

          • ToLiveIsToDie

            I begin to understand the hold up. I thought we were just discussing the ability for the average player to counter the list not the willingness. While I can certainly relate to the desire to have an army that includes effective options to handle all scenarios that simply isn’t how the game was designed and that has now been a fact for some time now. It isn’t great and I don’t enjoy that fact but we do have to live with it until GW takes an interest in balancing their game. Until that time our only option is to field allies or find opponents who will tailor their lists so that we can win with just our armies as presented. The latter being an unlikely occurrence.

          • ZeeLobby

            What we’re discussing was your original belief in theses “amazingly available hard counters”. My point was that this is just not true for all factions. And not necessarily available to all players in all situations.

          • ToLiveIsToDie

            But that isn’t actually a counter to the availability of the units. They are available as allies. If a player has chosen a faction and refuses to go outside of it to expand then there isn’t much response I can make to that but that doesn’t negate the availability of the counter. If money is the prohibiting issue which is understandable, this is an expensive hobby, then use proxies or maybe borrow friend/store models.

            For the sake of actual tournament play the unwillingness to field flamers might change considering lists like the one above. Then again, its more likely people will copy/paste the winning list. Either way, the counter is available with the only real exception being the Tau but not completely, they just can’t field psykers.

          • ZeeLobby

            I’m not countering “availability”. I’m countering “amazingly”. LoL. Sure we can all counter this if we go out and buy more stuff.

          • ToLiveIsToDie

            I suppose it was too extreme an adjective though I just don’t agree. Since all counter options are available with the exception of Tau not being able to get psykers I’m still going to stand by my assertion that the availability is indeed amazing. How many suits would really need to be fielded to handle 10 culexus assassins? 6 maybe? Maybe not fill every weapon slot with flamers so they maintain versatility. Then field whatever else for the cheese tournament list that you require. Since we’re now accepting that allies are being fielded why wouldn’t you transport IG flamers in a chimera that also has a flamer?

            I guess I’m not quite seeing the scenario you’re envisioning here. The focus point are the Culexus Assassins right? Of which there are six that must be spread out in order to deny opponent maneuverability otherwise they would be ignored as people tarpit them or just hold them with meaningless units and move around them. How is it so unreasonable to have a unit of guard in a chimera or 2 units of suits with at least one flamer each or two ghost keels which appear to be popular that can have 2 flamers each and still some impressive range options? Eldar flamers might be extremely expensive, I don’t know really. Wraithguard are the only ones I’ve seen at all and they seem costly but also deadly.

          • ZeeLobby

            You don’t seem to have nearly enough flamers. Not to mention this lists other options to remove those short ranged weapons before they shoot. I mean you can believe what you want to. Having attended many events over the years I just don’t think it’s as easy as you think it is.

          • 301stFeinminsterArmoured

            Admech have flamers tho, as do T’au. Deldar, specifically Covens, have spammable, if 1-shot, anti-psyker weapons too, that are free.

          • ZeeLobby

            Every faction has a flammer. Doesn’t mean it’s cheap, or easy to incorporate, into a TAC list. Not to mention if countering this list requires spamming them. Sure I could build one list to beat this list, but it’d definitely perform poorly into others. That’s the point.

        • ToLiveIsToDie

          Sorry, “TAC” went over my head, I haven’t seen that acronym before. Assuming it refers to “tactical” my question would be why aren’t there flamers in the list? They are objectively good against infantry and even moderately good against vehicles as far as small arms go with auto hits making up for 6’s to wound or 5’s on the heavy flamers.

          Psykers are also one of those things most armies should have at least one of if not two or three if only for the sake of denying smite or some of the ludicrously good buffing powers.

          • TAC is a take all comers list (T.A.C)

            TAC lists have a little bit of everything. You also never see them in competitive environments because extreme lists will own them.

            To deal with lists like those that are shown here in tournaments you need your own extreme counter, or a build that has a lot of the counter at the very least.

            TAC lists will usually not have those. The bottom line being you have to buy and build to specifically counter it. It is one of the things that plagues GW games in terms of turning people off to the game.

            A TAC list (example) should have a psyker or two yes. But a psyker or two won’t stop the spam smite lists because the spam smite list is loaded down with psykers as it is extreme and requires an extreme anti-build to counter.

          • euansmith

            Thanks, I learned something new. I always thought TAC referred to “tactical” too.

          • Drpx

            More or less mean the same thing.

    • Drpx

      If he wants to make a list that could get errata’d out next Tuesday then it’s his time and money.

    • silashand

      Doesn’t matter. This is the kind of list I simply won’t play against. I have other games and better things to do than waste my time with garbage like this. If others want to play it, fine. I just won’t be one of them.

      • For me the player in question only plays in tournaments and tournament prep games so I won’t have to play this unless I jump back into tournaments.

        So there is at least that. He doesn’t try to play casual or narrative games so it doesn’t cause conflict.

        My SMH statement was that upon hitting BOLS it was immediately begun.

        • silashand

          Of course. There are certain writers I usually don’t bother reading their articles and BBF is one of them for this specific reason. I wasn’t paying attention to that this morning which is why I clicked on it. Oh well, just more of the same old, same old from the same old, same old IMO.

          • funny you comment in every articles I rites though bruh …

          • silashand

            Hmmm… I didn’t think so, but then again I may not be as attentive as I used to be. It would be far easier if BoLS had an ignore/hide article function :-).

            Note that it’s not about you personally, I just don’t usually care about spam lists or tournament issues which is why I try to ignore posts by yourself, goatboy and a few others (and *every* podcast thread that’s just there to generate clicks with no content).

          • silashand

            As I said before, whatever dude.

          • silashand

            Just because you made the statement I went back and did a quick perusal of all my comments on Discus and for the record in the last 7 months I have commented on exactly *three* of your articles: this one, the house rules whinge fest and the BAO Open article. Your picture above notwithstanding, it’s you who’s obviously full of it.

            Then again, if that’s all you’ve written since last Christmas then so be it. With such an infrequent presence that would be why I didn’t catch it for this one.

          • Yer so full of it ! Hurrrrrr

  • Moke

    Is there a reason tournament’s can’t say:
    No bringing more than 2 of any one unit with the same loadout, excluding troops.

    I get that it would be a little restrictive but it has to be better than enabling these spam merchants.

    • GravesDisease

      Large tournaments already have different categories you can enter, and yes some of them have a “highlander” style restriction on list building.

      • Moke

        Yeah. I thought one was a bit too restrictive. I’m assuming there’s a reason the ITC, Nova etc. don’t do that…

        • euansmith

          Some of the TOs seem to like the “40k eXtreme 2 da Max” environment. I think that there is a certain crazy appeal to seeing these freakish lists butting heads; like Monster Trucks.

          • Moke

            I get the appeal of building a crazy army like that (eight thousand Exocrines, a Tyranid Prime for Synapse and a Void Shield Generator for the 4++) but that’s not the tournament scene, surely? Maybe Tournaments should have list classes. the ‘there can be only one’ class, the ‘be sensible, don’t spam’ class, and the ‘CHEEEEEESE’ class.

            But then that fragments the community and urg.

          • silashand

            Which is why I quit going to those kind of events. I don’t find it enjoyable to spend a weekend playing against garbage like the above.

          • I doubt it will be nerfed as irregardless what you whine this army has lots and lots o character. 🙂

          • silashand

            That army has none whatsoever regardless your claims to the contrary.

          • The only non character unit are the Retributors. 😀

          • silashand

            Ah, sorry. I didn’t catch the joke. From that perspective you are entirely correct :-).

          • Yeah I was just kidding – you’re a good guy for sure !

          • euansmith

            If the Power Gamers keep breaking the rules and GW keep fixing them, maybe they will end up with some sound and stable rules 😉 Survival of the fittest, and all that.

    • 301stFeinminsterArmoured

      Not all characters/units are created as equally dangerous. One faction may have a FOO spam list, while others need that kind of mass redundancy in order to function. Easier to solve with rules tweaks to Targeting Priority and the Units before Characters rule.

  • Parthis

    … in what way is this the return of the Death Star though… ? It’s a single army, built around assassins.

    And that’s it.

    Is it stupid? Yes.
    Is it gamey? Yes.
    Can it be countered? Yes.

    Cliiick, baaiit.

  • Jason E Lips

    So…any info on how this player put the deathstar into action? Just saying he moved his army up, or back, or used terrain is ambiguous.

    • I_am_Alpharius

      Yeah. I’m sure I’d class the list as a “deathstar” army

  • artty

    so far I’ve been impressed with how GW has been fairly quick to nerf the spam they see, so I hope to see that trend continue. Spam lists make the game zero fun.

  • Sidney

    My green horde would destroy this army.

  • Drpx

    That GSC guy was Rocky.

  • 301stFeinminsterArmoured

    They never left.

  • Deacon Ix

    My eeeeyyyesss

  • Marco Marantz

    Clearly GWs detachment rules are rubbish to allow this. They need to mandate CADs for tournament/matched play so you have to take a variety of units from a codex. ie start with HQ, 2x troops then add 1 elite, 1 fast, 1 heavy before taking other choices. This will force GW to make units more equally viable and ensure greater diversity.

  • Brettila

    As a teacher and concerned citizen of current circumstances, why glorify this guy? This is the biggest hors@sh!t list I’ve seen in 22 years playing the game. Telling new or inexperienced players that this is awesome does NOTHING to help the game going forward. Not sure if this means the game is irredeemably broken or if they need lessons from Spartan Games.

  • Dhalgren Schroeder

    That’s a legal army? Am I reading it correctly..characters and the ONE unit of SoB’s? What a boring army. If you can even call it that.

    Also, given how rare it was for more than one Assassin to be together back in 30K, I can’t see they suddenly are a spammable resource..

  • BartTP

    >The third mistake was letting him move a Chimera he forgot about in the shooting phase which next turn then he moved again to deny me a maelstrom point
    Autism much, huh?

  • Kiskatona

    Now I know what it does, this is a list that I wont play against. Not that I’d see it much, I don’t get to play often and I don’t play tournaments (tried it once, not for me). But this is the kind of list that would simply frustrate me to no end.

  • Troy G

    So a Rowboat Girlyman list plays 2 other Roboat lists, and a Magnus list in the course of 5 games at a tourney.

    Good Job GW.